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Old Forum Posts for forum called KiteLines
We stopped the forum near the end of Feb. 2014, and invite line notes and discussions to be sent to editor@UpperWindpower.com        See index for Kite Lines
Kites involve wing set, line or tether set, and resistive set that could also be a wing set. This discussion group aims to focus on the lines used in the tether set, including subsets of lines for bridles and other kite system operations. Lines for tiny kites or huge sky meshes of wings for travel or energy production are in focus here. Line handling, inspection, use, supply, termination, manufacturing, failure mode, reeling lines, reeling effects on lines, line challenges, knots in lines, hockles, illuminated lines, etc. are fair topics. Staying on a thread's topic makes for a better searchable result.
M50:   Exceptionally Wide Kite-System Tether Segments
Explore the world of tether segments in kite systems that are exceptionally wide relative to the projection to the wind. Such wide segments might be tag-lined to ground or to branched sub-kite systems within the global macro-kite system involved. Many format choices for the segment might be explored for various reasons.
M49: The EP Register record is with an interested offer of data:  https://register.epo.org/application?number=EP11741170
M48: Tether for renewable energy systems  WO2012013659A1
M47: Tether Dynamics
Start:
http://energykitesystems.net/HilaryCostello/index.html
http://www.energykitesystems.net/Tethers/index.html
http://www.energykitesystems.net/WPGA/Members/Tethers/index.html
http://www.energykitesystems.net/TetherHandling/index.html
http://www.energykitesystems.net/TwistMethod/index.html
http://www.energykitesystems.net/CoopIP/SelfLiftingTethers.html
http://www.energykitesystems.net/Tethers/SmartTethers/index.html
Faust tail-control tether systems (not linked yet)
M46:  http://www.energykitesystems.net/DavidsonTechnology/index.html
Study the tether matters in the patent application. What is old? What might be novel?
M45: Dave Santos offers the fuel content of kite system for doing further work:
Kite as Energy Storage Device
M44: Anti-kinking transmission and guiding system for running cables  US 8511645 B2
M43: What to do with de-commissioned kite lines?
Recycle them? How?
Second safe uses? What?

A kite line may become unworthy for a certain kiting use for a number of reasons. Those reasons result in de-commissioning a line for a specific use. Those reasons are invited to be explored carefully.

Labeling a line as to its condition and readiness or unreadiness for a certain use can make a huge difference in a kite system operation. One has a line; is it safe to use now for a certain operation? Without knowing the history of the line including current certified testing, one may be risking wrong use for a specific line. Keeping lines out of wrong uses is an important safety matter.

But once the line is labeled for recycling or secondary use, what are some of the options? What are the engineering specifics of secondary use or recycling of line?
M42: High-speed faired towline  US 4655155   Filing date: Jan 28, 1985   Issue date: Apr 7, 1987
Reece Folb and Shelton M. Gay, Jr
M41: Patent number: US 3304364  Filing date: Jan 25, 1965  Issue date: Feb 14, 196
CONDUCTING TOW LINE STRUCTURE,  Alexander C. Hetherington
M40: STREAMLINED CONDUCTOR CABLE by  E. C. CRAIG,
Patent number: US 2435956     Filing date: Dec 9, 1942.    Issue date: Feb 17, 1948.
M39: Fairing for tow-cables by Neville E. Hale. Patent number: US 4700651
Filing date: Sep 26, 1984.  Issue date: Oct 20, 1987. Discuss this and all earlier faired tethers.
M38: Lines in fluids may be faired; however, fairing may bring "kiting" or fluttering or both.
=============================
Composite cable fairing by Robert R. Holcombe, Steven G. Parks, Patrick M. Broganl
Patent number: US 4542708.  Filing date: Jan 6, 1984. Issue date: Sep 24, 1985
Discuss this and all findable earlier and later cable-fairing patents.
M37:  Line surface treatments, uses, textures,
Shape
Texture
Radiance
Reflection
Sound
Color
Pixelized messages, text, video,
Fine art
Video
Changing colors
Sensors
Conductive segments for counting length
Markers for counting length
Marker for splice area
Markers for visibility
Electrically conductive surface
Streamlined shape
Black for converting sunlight to warmth
White for cool line
Water evaporation from the line
Spray water or other chemicals from the line
Collect water from air
Mirror finish
Rough textures for various reasons
???
M36: Adjustable strap for a kite line  by Daniel Prentice
Patent number: US 6056243.   Filed: Dec 31, 1997.  Issued: May 2, 2000                      Discuss.
M35: Line wear.   Self-powered sensors developed for monitoring aircraft integrity
M34: Line wear.  Structural stress sensor able to repair itselfb 
"The self-repairing stress sensor is able to rebuild its polymer filament using liquid resin and a UV light beam

http://iopscience.iop.org/0964-1726/20/1/013002
M33: Wire.  Wires of many sorts are used in kite systems. Selection of wire for the specific kite-system function challenges crafters and engineers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stranded_wire

Discuss.

Start:

  • Conductive tethers in energy kite systems
  • Piano wire in early weather kiting
  • Communications in a kite system using wires
  • Construction wire
  • Avoiding wires in toy kites
  • Paravane wires
M32: Knot Break Strength vs Rope Break Strength  

http://www.caves.org/section/vertical/nh/50/knotrope.html 

Knot Break Strength vs Rope Break Strength
Dave Richards, Technical Director, Cordage Institute.                                   Discuss.
M31: Line wear
  • Line wear?
  • Rate of loss of needed quality? 
  • Knowing the realtime condition of a line?
  • What advances are there for a line  to report its own status in realtime?
  • Inspection techniques and instruments
  • Could inspecion of a line be done upon reeling out and reeling in operations?
  • How far could we go in recording the full history of stresses that a line endures.  Count cycles. Characterize shocks. Report creep. Cleanness measuring.
  • Changes in electrical characteristics of a line.
  • Color changes.  How far could color go to indicate the current condition of a kite lien?

Some related links, so far:
M30:    Ice on ropes
  • Stored rope might be embedded in ice.
  • Wet rope  may freeze.
  • Do flying kite lines accumulate ice?  When, where, how, and mitigations?
  • Heating kite lines to de-ice?
  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deicing
  • http://tinyurl.com/IceOnRope
  • Compound lines may have a resistance heating element; what work has been done on such? Avoiding hot spots that might degrade the integrity of the line.
M29: Washing Dyneema line after saltwater use

Want to wash line? What ways are there to wash lines? Discussion is invited.

How much in a system will washing of lines make a difference in cost, safety, enjoyment, effectiveness?
How much does it cost to wash a line?
What is the life of an unwashed line compared to a washed line?

Here is one method: 
Dyneema maintenance: my way.avi   http://youtu.be/NOU_lI40lnk
M28: Towing with ropes with Dyneema   http://youtu.be/EIPixRCYKv8   Discuss.
M27:  Atlantic Braids.   http://youtu.be/cYEMT5avIUk   Dyneema rope VS steel rope - strength test - break test
Discuss.
M26:  A braiding line splicing   http://youtu.be/Iacr1totn8A  Discuss.    Caution: Shown splice is for braiding. 
What specific lines and lengths into each part would be needed to avoid separation?   What bonding enhancements might be considered? Whipping? Serpentine reentries?  Load tests on each change?   Find studies for testing the splice method for tensional uses.
M25:  Dyneema rope VS steel rope - strength test - break test                Discuss
M24: Simple Splicing in Spectwelve Dyneema Core with Push Fids              Video: 4:02
Load testing results are invited.
Discuss.
Feed the rope through a gap in the braid; use a fid. Etc. For the second loop, a larger fid will be needed.
Discuss.
Load tests. What thimble?
M23: 

Links for ropework    (other links are invited for this thread)
M22: splicing spectra, denema, or other loose braided cords
http://youtu.be/ajc21RsClh0
Discuss the video. What stresses and strains occur on the shown locking method?
M21:      This thread welcomes Spectra notes.  
  • History
  • Handling
  • Safety
  •  Grades
  • Exposure to chemicals, water, salt water, oils, acids, bases, ...   
  • Terminals. 
  • Termination procedures
  • UV
  • Heat
  • Reeling.
  • Abrasion.
  • Sizes availble
  • Inspection
  • Storing
  • Suppliers
  • Prices
  • Creep
  • Strength
  • Safety]
  • Salvage
  • Veilings
  • ?
M20: Watercraft having a kite-like element  by Stephan Wrage. Patent number: US8056490 
Filing date: Mar 17, 2010. Discuss claims, especially in comparison to his other patents and pending applications.
M19:   This thread invites notes on line safety.  Starting:  June 3, 2011.


Some years ago I took the family to Florida for the attractions at Disney etc. I managed to get some time to myself and went hang gliding at Quest. I had to fly with an instructor but was able to do most of the flying and thermalled around for about an hour. The instructor then said to land as he knew that conditions were about to change. And change they did with with a thunderstorm within moments of landing. Most evenings seem to end up this way with a lot of lightning strikes which were very spectacular.
 
I also visited a chandlers there to buy nicropress swages which are more expensive and difficult to get in the UK.  Whilst in the shop I met a guy and we got talking about wire rope and the various types that there are. It turns out that he worked at Disney on the maintenance and he told this story about Tinkerbell's problem:-
 
In Disney there is a fairy castle and just before the evening firework display: Tinkerbell flies from the castle ramparts to mark the beginning of the event. To achieve the effect they use an aerial runway which cannot be seen at distance.  Because of the regular electric storms:  a charge detector registers any nearby strikes and the wire rope is changed if it exceeds the limit set.  On one such occasion the limit was exceeded, but there were no spares in the stock room. Someone was sent out to get a replacement armed with the dimensions and length of the cable.  This was fitted and no more was thought of it until the performance that evening. 
Well Tinkerbell flew OK,  but when she put on the brake she kept on going and crashed into the buffer at the end of the runway. Tinkerbell saw stars that night and ended up with a broken arm.

It turned out that the cable used was of the correct dimensions--but the specification was different--although this was not obvious by just looking at it. The correct cable had a nylon core around which the wire rope was laid and a dry makeup. The one used had oil impregnated into the makeup which, when the brake was applied, provided little stopping friction .
 
It just shows that when working on life-dependent systems, one needs to be pretty sure of what specification the material is; and if not sure, then do your own testing to determine that the limits are suitable for the job in hand. 
 
Tony Prentice
M18:  Wire rope splicing. http://tinyurl.com/WireRopeSpliceGENLINKimages    General images.
Following holding pages may lead to valuable documents.
M17:

What for kitelines may be learned from Talurit ?    
["We develop, manufacture and market mechanical splicing systems for wire and wire rope fabricators. "]

TALURIT AB is since more than 50 years a supplier in the field of
mechanical splicing; trust the experience. ]

I sent request for copy of their Ferrule Securing Instructions. 
M16:   Study of wire rope splicing techniques is invited. Links, comments toward use in kite line assemblies, etc.

==========
Joe, 
Normal hemp rope splicing techniques could be used on wire rope. but is difficult on small diameters and makes a mess of your finger tips. Whether it would compromise the integrity and strength of the cable: I am not sure, but it would make a very neatly finished joint. It should provide a more flexible connection reducing point loading on parts of the cable that occur with swaging.
 ~ Tony   
=================

Wire rope manual   ... has a thread started in this group wherein the manual are some splicing notes.

=================

Comparison of life and failure modes for spliced terminations versus compressed sleeves and other methods form topics for discussion.  Niche applications for each?  Best for what applicaiton?  Cares and tips?   Inspection?  Tracking status of an installation. Experience reports?
M15: Soldered train of whippings and whipped stops
Joe, 
Your description seems OK but the method takes time and is not kind on the fingers either. 
 Tony  
M14:  The method of this topic thread needs study and testing before using the method in any life-keeping situations.

==============================================

Method under study: Prentice early HG cable termination
M13: Re: Streamlined shrouds of multiple cables
 

http://www.flyingwires.com/html/inventory.html

Vibration

Will streamlining help kite hang glider flying wires?

Relaxation and tension cycles might preclude use of  rods for kite hang glider flying lines.

How steady is the flow beneath the wing at the flying wires?   How could testing be done to see the benefit level of streamlining the flying lines in kite hang gliders?
M12: Re: Streamlined shrouds of multiple cables
 

http://www.steenaero.com/Images/Products/flying_wires_collection_ends_small_horiz.jpg

 

 

What are some wind tunnel studies of streamlined cables or thin rods?
M11: Carbon lines.

Carbon fiber, carbon rope, carbon string, carbon cable, carbon fiber tow,

  • Niche uses for kitelines from the carbon-based products?
  • Coatings
  • Handling
  • Making of string and rope made with carbon fiber
  • Comparison of specific product with other specific products

Links are welcome about aspects of carbon lines
M10:   UHMWPE  Ultra-high-molecular-weight polyethylene

wiki 

Aspects?

  • Veiled or shrouded?
  • Inspection at purchase?
  • Knots
  • Terminals, stops, ascenders, attachments,
  • Marking
  • Labeling
  • Logbook to track a line set. Track injuries, exposures, stresses, uses, cycles,
  • Failure modes for UHMWPE lines
  • Status indicators?
  • Use tips
  • Application discussion
  • Tools
  • Radiation
  • Heat
  • UV
  • Water
  • Lightning
  • Pulleys
M9:       had been deleted.
M8: Wire rope: galvanized versus stainless steel

Depending on the kite application, this thread invites study of

Wire rope: galvanized versus stainless steel

  • Getting in the know of what base material is galvanized
  • Exact material specification and controls on quality of product
  • Corrosion and environment impacts
  • Use impacts
  • Inspection methods
  • Following the history of a part
  • ?
M7  Ball swage termination

This thread is dedicated to discussing ball swages  or swaged-ball terminals on kite lines of various specifications.
M6: Re: Streamlined shrouds of multiple cables

Some discussion had been at http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=98729#98729
M5: Re: Streamlined shrouds of multiple cables

http://www.energykitesystems.net//KiteLines/casedcables.jpg

Shroud design has a wide choice set.
Would one pot the internal cables?  
Would the casing be easily taken off and on? 
Would the casing be made of strands of cable that took the tension?
Would elemental flat wire be involved in some specifications in order to better fill the profile?

Much room for development here!  

 
M4: Streamlined shrouds of multiple cables

By suggestion from Tony Prentice to consider streamlined shrouding of multiple cables, we start this thread for development of such.

"multiple cables in a streamlined casing"

Challenges:

  • What kite lines in what systems would the special arrangement be worth the effort? 
    • One set of kite lines being considered are the lateral flying wires for ktie hang gliders.  
    • Another kite line is the tether from the kite hang glider's keel to the kite hang glider's pilot's harness.
    • Another is in advanced kite-energy kite systems where drag of the kite tether set is reduced by the streamlining.
  • How will terminals be applied?
  • Inspection of lines set in the casing or shroud?

All are welcome to advance this topic.
M3: Line tools.

What tools might be involved in dealing with lines for kite systems?

  • Splicing
  • Knot guides and templates and samples and posters
  • Cable-termination tools
  • Pliers that place stops, etc.
  • Glues and potting tools
  • Swaging tools
  • Cutters to match line
  • Terminals and tools to place them
  • Inspection guides and tools
  • Line tracking tools. Inventory tools. Log book for a line.  Injury and repair log notes on a line set.
  • Storage containers, guides, methods, inventory
  • Specification for the line kept available. Supply for the line directory. Replacement guide.
  • ?
M2: Wire rope manual     http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/nstm/ch613.pdf
M1: Welcome to KiteLines
Notes affecting kite lines or kitelines are most welcome.

Open a topic and then on-topic replies to that topic will generated a
strong searchable treasure for those interested in kites.

Lift,

JoeF
What lines creep how much under what stresses?
"Instead of focusing on correct material, focus on the right lines.
Dyneema shrinks, Kevlar does not shring (but is not as durable as Dyneema),
... Taking into
consideration that your kite is a lot smaller than paraglider, small change
in lines length could make your kite useless even though the material has
only hm? 50 hours lets say? After two years of having my 7 m2 foil (custom
design, :) fast as a devil) I had to change its trim for 1 cm on A lines and
0.5 cm on B lines. It's not much, but it's damn hard to make the changes. On the end I used small piece of electric wire and made a loop around it with line."

Unfold the above matters. Verify.
Feb. 25, 2014:  This forum is changing its venue to http://www.energykitesystems.net/KiteLines/index.html
where the posted message of our group are saved and neatened. 
       A long-term continuation of attention on kite-system lines will be developed there and associated folders. You may easily share by sending messages to the edmail address at the top of the pages of the site. Thank you, All for participating.      This will be the final message in the Yahoo! space for KiteLines.   
Best to you and yours, 
JoeF

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