Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                           AWES13989to14038 Page 175 of 440.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13989 From: dave santos Date: 8/22/2014
Subject: Re: Clueless

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13990 From: dave santos Date: 8/22/2014
Subject: NASDAQ picks up Oilprice.com AWE Story

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13991 From: dave santos Date: 8/22/2014
Subject: Re: NASDAQ picks up Oilprice.com AWE Story

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13992 From: benhaiemp Date: 8/22/2014
Subject: Mothra-Arch and land/space used

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13993 From: dave santos Date: 8/22/2014
Subject: Dr. Beaujean In Memoriam

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13994 From: dave santos Date: 8/22/2014
Subject: Re: Mothra-Arch and land/space used

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13995 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/22/2014
Subject: Re: Dr. Beaujean In Memoriam

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13996 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 8/22/2014
Subject: Re: Mothra-Arch and land/space used

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13997 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/22/2014
Subject: Re: Dr. Beaujean In Memoriam

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13998 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/22/2014
Subject: Re: Dr. Beaujean In Memoriam

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13999 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/22/2014
Subject: Re: Fanbelting Groundgen

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14000 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/22/2014
Subject: Bolonkin on Vehicle Transport

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14001 From: dave santos Date: 8/22/2014
Subject: Re: Fanbelting Groundgen

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14002 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/22/2014
Subject: Re: Fanbelting Groundgen

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14003 From: dave santos Date: 8/23/2014
Subject: Kites as Aircraft

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14004 From: dave santos Date: 8/23/2014
Subject: WSIKF Update (Brassington and Bazzer)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14005 From: dougselsam Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: Jeo F. and Dave S. good AWE ideas

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14006 From: dougselsam Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: Clueless

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14007 From: dougselsam Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: Kites as Aircraft

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14008 From: dougselsam Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: WSIKF Update (Brassington and Bazzer)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14009 From: dave santos Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: Kites as Aircraft

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14010 From: dave santos Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: Jeo F. and Dave S. good AWE ideas

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14011 From: dave santos Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: Clueless

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14012 From: dave santos Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: WSIKF Update (Brassington and Bazzer)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14013 From: dave santos Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Ken Conrad acquires Brooxes KAP; looks toward AWE R&D

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14014 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: Jeo F. and Dave S. good AWE ideas

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14015 From: dougselsam Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: Shade

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14016 From: dougselsam Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: Ken Conrad acquires Brooxes KAP; looks toward AWE R&D

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14017 From: dave santos Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: Jeo F. and Dave S. good AWE ideas

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14018 From: dougselsam Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: Clueless

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14019 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: Jeo F. and Dave S. good AWE ideas

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14020 From: dave santos Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: Ken Conrad acquires Brooxes KAP; looks toward AWE R&D

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14021 From: dave santos Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: Clueless

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14022 From: dave santos Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: Jeo F. and Dave S. good AWE ideas

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14023 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: Clueless

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14024 From: dave santos Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: Shade

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14025 From: Rod Read Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: large kite kill systems

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14026 From: benhaiemp Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: From multiplied unities towards an hybrid coherent set?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14027 From: benhaiemp Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: Mothra-Arch and land/space used

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14028 From: dave santos Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: Mothra-Arch and land/space used

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14029 From: Baptiste Labat Date: 8/25/2014
Subject: Human kites train

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14030 From: dougselsam Date: 8/25/2014
Subject: Re: Jeo F. and Dave S. good AWE ideas

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14031 From: dougselsam Date: 8/25/2014
Subject: Re: Ken Conrad acquires Brooxes KAP; looks toward AWE R&D

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14032 From: Rod Read Date: 8/25/2014
Subject: kites for study for cash

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14033 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/25/2014
Subject: Re: Ken Conrad acquires Brooxes KAP; looks toward AWE R&D

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14034 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/25/2014
Subject: GB2495028

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14035 From: dave santos Date: 8/25/2014
Subject: Re: Jeo F. and Dave S. good AWE ideas

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14036 From: dave santos Date: 8/25/2014
Subject: Re: Ken Conrad acquires Brooxes KAP; looks toward AWE R&D

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14037 From: dave santos Date: 8/25/2014
Subject: Re: kites for study for cash

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14038 From: dougselsam Date: 8/25/2014
Subject: Re: Jeo F. and Dave S. good AWE ideas



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13989 From: dave santos Date: 8/22/2014
Subject: Re: Clueless
The golden clue is Fort's "test, test, test, test, and test again". Whosoever follows this time-honored* AWE R&D advice can start with even an unworkable idea and move test-by-test toward the eventual optimal designs. Those who do not undertake serious testing as the critical path to AWE engineering success are the "clueless".

* The Wright Bros tested more than any also-ran competitor (especially glider-flight tests), and even invented the wind tunnel for essential tests, when bike handlebar-mounted testing proved insufficient.


On Friday, August 22, 2014 9:28 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13990 From: dave santos Date: 8/22/2014
Subject: NASDAQ picks up Oilprice.com AWE Story
The AWE media echo-chamber at work, as usual; but the new aspect is NASDAQ attention, which strongly signals the growing institutional investment awareness. We are getting closer to a first AWE venture to go public on the NASDAQ technology stock exchange, even with marginal technology. A well-financed player might convert a weak starting concept into gold, if they make the right engineering moves with the mountain of raised cash (which we used to fear Makani would do).
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13991 From: dave santos Date: 8/22/2014
Subject: Re: NASDAQ picks up Oilprice.com AWE Story
http://www.nasdaq.com/article/will-airborne-wind-turbines-soon-float-above-our-cities-cm382649


On Friday, August 22, 2014 10:19 AM, "dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13992 From: benhaiemp Date: 8/22/2014
Subject: Mothra-Arch and land/space used

General case: the radius of land used is tether length. Problems of identified projects: wing area/tether length ratio is too low." To improve swept area "crosswind kite" methods are studied and prototyped, but only kite potential of swept area has been considered, not the potential of complete swept area within land/space used. And "crosswind kite" makes a sort of bad rotor (irregularities and losses of power I observed on http://flygenkite.com ,see videos) .

It is interesting "crosswind kite" is not advocated by DougS (the good converter being a rotor by definition), and nor by DaveS ( no inherent stability, hazards due to aerobatic figures, and no maximized area).

Mothra-Arch covers a complete window of flight, but in a static presentation: take place between both anchors; the distance between one or other anchor and yourself is the radius of land used. Now fly a small kite with such a radius and into "crosswind kite" way: the kite will cover a window of flight being Arch width. So arch shape seems to be the idiomatic shape of becoming AWE in the same way the disk shape is the idiomatic shape of existing wind energy.

So Mothra-Arch maximizes swept area within land/space used.  Concerning wind directions issues, RodR drew a circular rail of cable of which diameter is the distance between the two anchors of Arch. Such a needed device (it is the price to pay for such advantages as inherent stabiliy and maximization) does not change in anyway Mothra-Arch land/space occupation.

 

PierreB  
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13993 From: dave santos Date: 8/22/2014
Subject: Dr. Beaujean In Memoriam
Gone, but not forgotten...

==========================

Gentlemen,

To our deep regret we have to announce Dr Beaujean's death in January of this year. His heart failed on him. 
As a consequence, we have had to defer any development work on the wind turbine.

We certainly hope that this type of turbines will be successfully implemented anyhow.

Gerrie Gijsen

for:
Bogey Venlo B.V.
Burg. van Darthstraat 7
NL-5913 VT  Venlo
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13994 From: dave santos Date: 8/22/2014
Subject: Re: Mothra-Arch and land/space used
Pierre, Please quote me carefully to convey my technical meanings. I do not recognize my thinking at all in your attempted summary-

 ""crosswind kite" is not advocated...by DaveS ( no inherent stability, hazards due to aerobatic figures, and no maximized area). Mothra-Arch covers a complete window of flight"

Corrections: 

All my personal AWES designs have employed crosswind-power in same sense Loyd defined. A HAWT rotor has the same crosswind physics.

A kitefarm Mothra is not proposed to "cover" the window, but only "frames" its margin to leave free maximal hosted frontal airspace for WECS. An overall frontal solidity factor of about 10% is proposed, with the sweeping sub-parts harvesting as much area as possible.

Flight stability is a common requirement to every AWES scheme. My preference for active control built upon inherent passive stability follows conventional aeronautics. Crosswind power by passively-stable AWES design is quite natural.

Aerobatic figures of a well designed AWES are not "hazards" but normal operation, if the aero-designer resolves the danger. Using pilot-lift and cross-linked constraint meshes for dense-arrays of aerobatically sweeping soft-kite power elements resolves traditional aerobatic hazards.

---------------------------------------------

http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/media/faa-h-8083-2.pdf

"Defining Hazard

By definition, a hazard is a present condition, event, object, or 
circumstance that could lead to or contribute to an unplanned 
or undesired event such as an accident. It is a source of 
danger."

Note: This definition excludes dangers eliminated by a successful design process.




On Friday, August 22, 2014 1:07 PM, "pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13995 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/22/2014
Subject: Re: Dr. Beaujean In Memoriam
Joseph Beaujean, Joseph Marie Elise Beaujean, Sjef Beaujean

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13996 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 8/22/2014
Subject: Re: Mothra-Arch and land/space used



DaveS,

So some points are not your thinking, but my thinking.

 

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13997 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/22/2014
Subject: Re: Dr. Beaujean In Memoriam
Recalling  his AWES thrust:
Giant airborne 'power station' could blow rivals out of the water

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13998 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/22/2014
Subject: Re: Dr. Beaujean In Memoriam
Get a feel of his grasp on handling huge tethers: 
and then see how 
he was wrestling with the seabed: 


Those two ventures are telling--for me-- of how his mind moved to capture the Big Wind in big mega-scale AWES ways. 

His energy will be missed, 

~ JoeF

 


 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13999 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/22/2014
Subject: Re: Fanbelting Groundgen
This topic is joined by the various fanbelting groundgen studies by Bolonkin http://www.energykitesystems.net/Bolonkin/ArticleOfFlowEnergyForSgre12211.pdf
and note in his other papers: 
Bolonkin, A.A., Transmission Mechanical Energy to Long Distance.AIAA-2004-5660. AIAA Conference 
2004
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14000 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/22/2014
Subject: Bolonkin on Vehicle Transport

Patent US6494143 - Bolonkin's method movement of vehicles and installation for it

may be studied and discussed as regards moving vehicles using airborne tactics.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14001 From: dave santos Date: 8/22/2014
Subject: Re: Fanbelting Groundgen
AlexB's 2004 AWE prospectus is a milestone in Low-Complexity AWE. Leo Goldstein, kPower, and KiteLab Group are latecomers this particular concept space. AWE has plenty of visionaries, alive and dead. We celebrate AlexB is still with us even after all his gulag years, even as we mourn Dr. Beaujean and Wubbo.

The AWE driven kiteplane train in Fig. 31 of the Bolonkin Patent JoeF linked is a favorite, since we could rather easily make it work by current art (perhaps first for irrigation or fighting wildfires).


On Friday, August 22, 2014 4:45 PM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14002 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/22/2014
Subject: Re: Fanbelting Groundgen
The PDF has challenged some readers. So, an HTML version was made from the PDF:
http://www.energykitesystems.net/Bolonkin/Bolonkin2004.html

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14003 From: dave santos Date: 8/23/2014
Subject: Kites as Aircraft
As the years pass, our understanding of basic AWE principles deepens, and we express them with greater clarity.

We well know AWES can be designed along an L/D wing spectrum ranging from KiteShip OL's at around 2-3, NPWs at 3-4, Parafoils up to about 12, and hot rigid wings (tether-drag constrained) to about 20. AWES architectures with mixed wings have emerged, for example, a high L/D rotor can be paired under a low L/D pilot-lifter.

Higher L/D wings operate at higher characteristic velocity. "Kite-like" wings are at the light floaty slow end of the spectrum. The trade-offs is hard to quantify in terms of ROI, if cheaper larger kite wings are compared with higher-cost smaller rigid wings (even financing cost variations tip the balance).

"Sink-rate" is an analog to Loyd's "load velocity" to see both kinds of wings working comparably, but rigid wings can also do high load-velocity. It favors kite-like wings that they are closer in characteristic operating velocity to most-probable-wind-velocity. Rigid wings must sweep faster than the most-probable-wind to operate, which involves precariously maintaining momentum with fast control response. Soft wings even gain some sweeping capability in very low wind, without the desperate game of "clawing for lift" of hotter wings.

Scaling Law forces us to adopt giant kite-like wings for the highest unit-power. A large rigid wing would require a least-probable hurricane-force wind to lift-off as a kite, and so requires elaborate launching aids. Current Critical Reliability forces us to adopt soft-kite wings over rigid. The FAA's mass-velocity based regulations make no place for unreliable "hot" kiteplanes. Capital cost and ROI is driven by these factors, to also favor a primary choice of kite-like wings. 

There remains the option of a hybrid wing basis for kite farms, for a synergy not possible by one wing type alone. We understand that mass vertical lift for a kite farm can be provided by a single low L/D kite-arch, in order to host many smaller high L/D harvesting wings, constrained in dense arrays, and operating at high load-velocity. It is proposed that such a hybrid AWES architecture optimally trades between the constraints listed to express best-practice engineering of "kites as aircraft".

We see hybrid wing designs everywhere in common reversed-physics similarity cases (for example a powered paraglider's low L/D parafoil operationally matched to its high L/D rotor blades is a mirror image of PL or Pierre's FlyGen models (which also sweep in low-wind or park in high wind, but better match most-probable wind velocity than a Makani turbine-in-a-wing).
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14004 From: dave santos Date: 8/23/2014
Subject: WSIKF Update (Brassington and Bazzer)
Day six at the fest and an old blogger has closely posted the event, with a video from this morning of two of our close AWE kite talent connections (scroll down toward the bottom of the long page)-

"In this video you'll see several thousands of dollars worth of Robert Brasington kites being flown in trains, and check out the asteroid kites by Bazzer."

The trains pulled quite hard and flew rock solid all day. Likewise, the spectacular Asteroids flew "glued to the blue", and are real works of art as well as advanced flight tech (Seattle-made for $650). Brasington's Ninja Star is the rotor for KiteSat by New Tech Kites and kPower.

http://gliderdude.blogspot.com/

Brasington Trains-

Robert Brasington Kites - Exhibition Trains 2013.
Asteriods-

Glued to The Blue
 

 

image
 

 
 
 
 

Glued to The Blue
Welcome To Glued To The Blue I was born in Hampshire in England and now reside in Steilacoom WA in the beautiful Pacific Northwest of America. I have been building ...

View on www.gluedtotheblue...
Preview by Yahoo

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14005 From: dougselsam Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: Jeo F. and Dave S. good AWE ideas
"Please document your "10 easy ways to do AWE" now" - *** Nah, I'm leaving the workable ideas open for all the highly-funded, credentialed, PhD geniuses and the know-it-all's like you, a self-described "expert in AWE", to ignore or "discover" on your own.  Also, it's way more than 10 easy ways... and even you have inadvertently stumbled across a few, but you don't know a good idea from a bad one.  :)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14006 From: dougselsam Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: Clueless
The golden clue is Fort's "test, test, test, test, and test again" - *** And so what is Fort, as head of the "National Wind technology Center", test-test-testing today?  Hmmmm....    :)  Dave S, your statements remind me of a baseball pitcher being told to close his eyes and randomly pitch in every direction, at every speed, until someday he might throw a single strike, if he is lucky.  Sounds reasonable only if you have absolutely no clue whatsoever.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14007 From: dougselsam Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: Kites as Aircraft
"As the years pass, our understanding of basic AWE principles deepens"  *** or so we seem to think, in spite of making no progress at all...  :O...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14008 From: dougselsam Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: WSIKF Update (Brassington and Bazzer)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14009 From: dave santos Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: Kites as Aircraft
Doug,

If you "make no progress at all", its for lack of deepening your knowledge. You don't even seem to try to master the aviation side of AWE, without which its only natural for you to despair.

At least we tried to teach you how to progress, 

daveS




On Sunday, August 24, 2014 7:52 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14010 From: dave santos Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: Jeo F. and Dave S. good AWE ideas
Doug,

You are clearly bluffing. No way you could ever list "10 easy ways to do AWE" that have not already been identified by others, and are not so easy that no serious kite or other aviation knowledge is required. 

All you bring here is deep unhappiness over honest better-informed AWE efforts, by many great folks,

daveS


On Sunday, August 24, 2014 7:40 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14011 From: dave santos Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: Clueless
Doug,

Fort has a long distinguished career in test engineering, and is a highly collaborative tech player even as a US bureaucrat. Consider everyone in AWE who conducts serious testing part of his natural team, by a shared testing ethos.

Lets agree that Fort's "test, test,.." advice is not for you to understand in a positive light,

daveS


On Sunday, August 24, 2014 7:45 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14012 From: dave santos Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: WSIKF Update (Brassington and Bazzer)
Doug,

OK, be the "potty" mind of AWE. At least your latest scatological Forum post is family-rated, if still quite useless,

daveS


On Sunday, August 24, 2014 8:28 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14013 From: dave santos Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Ken Conrad acquires Brooxes KAP; looks toward AWE R&D
Ken Conrad is one of the top kite technologists for many years now, with innovations ranging from kite design to kite electronics applications like aerial streaming video. He has acquired Brooks Leffler's pioneering KAP business, and will be working with kPower to adapt KiteSat for self-charging KAP aloft. Dropped-Object Safety is a top common design concern, which we intend to master.

We have had long conversations about AWE during WSIKF2014, and are planning how to get the wide circle of Pacific NW talent together in Seattle for AWE brainstorming and collaboration (Airbnb house?). Ken has many key area contacts to add to our growing AWE circle around here (British Columbia, Washington, Oregon).

Welcome to Kite Aerial Photography!
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14014 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: Jeo F. and Dave S. good AWE ideas

An example: www.minesto.com/deepgreentechnology/ : the same scheme in air (Makani's rigid wing with turbines and flying "crosswind") can be problematic (land used x high risk x inherent instability x high speed increasing problems) when it can work better in water.

So finding the good way is nothing if we do not know why it is the good way.

Joe Faust and Dave Santos have the good strategy: lift (lifting force), then lift (inherent stability), then energy production. So lift is before, producing is after. A kite-like can lift a wind turbine more easily than a wind turbine can fly, but it is not all, oherwise things would be too easy. SuperTurbine (tm)
looks a fine idea by mixing lift and rotor in big height. But taken alone it looks like a caterpillar dancing rock n roll trying to be a butterfly. However some principles from ST can help AWE making and ST can be perhaps an option, but not the first key.

With Mothra-Arch you can enter utility-scale AWE, and with ST you can have in some cases, an eventual option.

PierreB

 

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14015 From: dougselsam Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: Shade
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14016 From: dougselsam Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: Ken Conrad acquires Brooxes KAP; looks toward AWE R&D
I note that your post starts by mentioning people, who you then say know more people, culminating in the completion of your diversion, to a picture of a drone camera.  At no point is AWE on the radar screen, let alone actually addressed.  Another splintering arrow that can never reach its target due to said splintering.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14017 From: dave santos Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: Jeo F. and Dave S. good AWE ideas
Pierre,

Please review the severe scaling-law limits to an ST drive-shaft. Calculate the weight required to reach over 500m high, for how much potential power. Calculate the cost of carbon-fiber structure required. Compare with Fort's $5 per lb goal. You will then see that the ST is no substitute for more practical kite methods under arches. If you cannot see the ST problems, try building one to just 50m high, and learn AE scaling-law and composite-material costs by flight-testing.

Its troubling that you and Doug have not understood the critical flaws in the ST even after five years of Forum discussion. You and Doug must show that the ST is plausible to test against other choices. The KiteLab prediction is that the ST cannot even be built for testing to 500m high, unless you have a few millions to waste (to only then show incredibly poor power-to-weight performance*),

daveS

* Latest ST critical-flaw identified: Doug has never explained how an ST rising across a wind gradient can work all its rotors at full RPM without the lower rotors only adding drag.


On Sunday, August 24, 2014 9:46 AM, "Pierre BENHAIEM pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14018 From: dougselsam Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: Clueless
OK let's suppose for a moment that we on this list believe that AWE has a strong potential to revolutionize the field of wind energy.  From that standpoint, we'd expect a "National Wind Technology Center" powered by millions in tax dollars, and fueled by the "impending doom" of "global warming", to be at the leading edge of AWE research.  But, it seems, they are doing zero AWE research.  That would be like a hypothetical  "National Transportation Research Authority" taking no action toward powered flight in the year 1900.  Or maybe they'd be talking about how to elevate train tracks with balloons as the future of aerial  transportation, like a Bolonkin-esque steam-punk future-of-the-past..

If you believe that AWE is the future of wind energy, and see a "National Wind Technology Center" not pursuing AWE at all, then why would you value their advice in the first place?  If they had even your limited level of understanding, they'd be working on AWE anyway, right?  Leading the pack perhaps?  The fact that they're not even working on AWE, in the face of AWE being "the future of wind energy" would seem to make NWTC irrelevant and ineffective, no?  At least lacking vision and not interested in an interesting future?

Now you may see the frustration many note of big-name labs leaving all the heavy-lifting in research to the actual worker-bees out there in the hinterlands.  The process is often something like discover =
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14019 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: Jeo F. and Dave S. good AWE ideas

DaveS,

"* Latest ST critical-flaw identified: Doug has never explained how an ST rising across a wind gradient can work all its rotors at full RPM without the lower rotors only adding drag."

For me that looks as a more critical-flaw than scaling-law limits.

 

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14020 From: dave santos Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: Ken Conrad acquires Brooxes KAP; looks toward AWE R&D
Doug,

Read closely. Powering KAP with a KiteSat generator is AWE. Recuiting KenC into AWE more generally is great news. The social aspect of convening an AWE circle in Seattle is AWE content, an announcement comparable to your invitations in SoCal, but with more hope for progress.

Its as if you are blind to what counts as AWE news. Your whiny posts offer the least actual AWE content,

daveS


On Sunday, August 24, 2014 10:18 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14021 From: dave santos Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: Clueless
Doug,

The NWTC is getting into serious AWE study, but you miss the signs. Its quite natural for DOE to be slow to start, just like a large ship. Plans are underway for both conferences and testing. kPower is gearing-up for these events.

Its now up to you to prepare your prototypes to the NWTC party, or just be a crank. Its not like any professor or government scientist will do that for you, on either technical merits or social capital,

daveS


On Sunday, August 24, 2014 10:42 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14022 From: dave santos Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: Jeo F. and Dave S. good AWE ideas
Pierre,

Its just another ST critical flaw to add to the long list. The Scaling Law critical flaw has been identified for several years.

Its not as if you are defending your choice of ST as a WECS by noting critical flaws so slowly,

daveS


On Sunday, August 24, 2014 11:08 AM, "Pierre BENHAIEM pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14023 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: Clueless

1.    www.governorswindenergycoalition.org/?p=8575  

      
PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14024 From: dave santos Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: Shade
Joe,

Imagine a city covered in tensioned sails (like ShadeSails') that shade, collect water, and even billow to make power at the attachment nodes. Imagine this urban "sail-plan" as able to lift up into upper wind as desired to match load demand.

In this case, the "no populations" bias is turned on its head, and the AWES envisioned would directly support and enhance an urban center,

daveS


On Sunday, August 24, 2014 10:12 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14025 From: Rod Read Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: large kite kill systems
Does anyone know of a good collected resource describing quick release systems for tensioned ropes?
What about kite killer design resources?

The 3 ring parachute release system looks a good cheap start.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-ring_release_system

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14026 From: benhaiemp Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: From multiplied unities towards an hybrid coherent set?

From   www.governorswindenergycoalition.org/?p=8575   "Data on the technology are currently limited because while several prototypes have been deployed, no airborne wind energy arrays have been installed. However, Archer said, the potential is undeniably enormous".

Thinking the whole.

 

PierreB


 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14027 From: benhaiemp Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: Mothra-Arch and land/space used

DaveS,

 

Please can you describe your strategy for launching and landing of both Arch and WECS ?

 

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14028 From: dave santos Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: Mothra-Arch and land/space used
Pierre,

Pierre,

Please note you are asking for review for kPower material already shared, but are not yourself providing requested WheelWind specs or other numbers (like your max efficiency-factor (%) of a theoretic kite farm in FAA-defined airspace).

In general, I propose launching and landing be worked out diligenty in testing, as shown in videos below. As as heavy-equipment operator (incl. up to 600ton cranes) during the "70s, '80s and '90s, I see no problem in using large machines to do at full scale (1/1) what I am doing by hand below at 1/40 scale-

Mothra Sand Launch 8:26
 

 

image
 

 
 
 
 

Mothra Sand Launch 8:26

View on www.youtube.com
Preview by Yahoo

 

 Mothra1 Flight Modes
 


On Sunday, August 24, 2014 2:52 PM, "pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14029 From: Baptiste Labat Date: 8/25/2014
Subject: Human kites train
If you want to hire some pilots to test some new prototypes before automating them, I found some good ones...
Baptiste
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14030 From: dougselsam Date: 8/25/2014
Subject: Re: Jeo F. and Dave S. good AWE ideas
"Latest ST flaw identified: wind gradient....all rotors full RPM without the lower rotors adding drag." *** The patent says make upper rotors larger diameter****** This has already been discussed.  ***Roddy thought it was his original contribution - "tornado".  ***Many other factors abound, unknown 2 U. *** Also: "cubic scaling laws" apply to all systems and proposed systems, not just ST.  The stated reason for ST has always been to address the cubic scaling laws affecting a single large rotor - hello?  Anyone home?  Oh well...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14031 From: dougselsam Date: 8/25/2014
Subject: Re: Ken Conrad acquires Brooxes KAP; looks toward AWE R&D
"Your whiny posts offer the least actual AWE content," *** Dave S. your entire existence is one big "WHINE".  Whine whine whine about everyone an everything.  Like all wannabe's you whine about Paul Gipe et al. or anyone who knows anything about anything.  "Why won't they debate me? Wah!"  "You say Honeywell's turbine is bad - my perceived authority said it's GOOD!  WAH!  You are bad - I am good - WAH!"  Dave S. - U R a ding-dong...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14032 From: Rod Read Date: 8/25/2014
Subject: kites for study for cash
I'm doing my tax return and I am sh1t at making cash.

Any group / company / university fellow AWE nutter want to rent a go / buy / other similar trade?
I do have a very cool spinny kite you could play with / study etc...

My youngest kid is nagging me that it's about time I made some cash for a change.

Advice on business marketing gladly taken... instruction almost preferred.

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14033 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/25/2014
Subject: Re: Ken Conrad acquires Brooxes KAP; looks toward AWE R&D
Doug, 
 1. KAP is an AWE branch. 
2.  KAP looking to KiteSat for recharging or direct powering of photographic operations is AWE. 
3.  KAP people becoming aware of their technology folding to other AWE ends is AWE mixing. 
~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14034 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/25/2014
Subject: GB2495028
This topic for the study of GB2495028
===========================
Background: http://www.energykitesystems.net/KhaledKSabbagh/index.html
=====
Dear Mr. Faust,
I wonder if any AWE international conference will be held this year?
[[Ed: Online in open forum at airbornewindenergy, daily conferencing;
however, physical gatherings are in small groups; large international
conference: no firm details yet.]]

I'd like to tell you that recently I obtained a PCT grant patent
registered in United Kingdom. On 06 August 2014, the intellectual
property office in United Kingdom "IPO" issued my grant patent under
publication number: GB2495028

A copy of IPO publication is attached. [[ Moderator: We leave it to
each of us to visit the patent directly in the patent collections
online.]]

I'll be grateful if you could help me to find any entity which may be
interested to carry out developing my technique.

With best regards.

Khaled K. Sabbagh
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14035 From: dave santos Date: 8/25/2014
Subject: Re: Jeo F. and Dave S. good AWE ideas
Doug,

The trouble is, a larger turbine has generally has a lower RPM, so if the ST requires larger turbines in the better wind at top only to match the slower rpm of smaller turbines lower down in poorer wind, then both electrical efficiency and torque-to-weight efficiency are reduced (no win). Wind gradients are not constant either, but contain LLJs and stagnant inversion layers, so one ST design-trim does not optimally fit even common 24 hour transient gradient dynamics.

The toughest case is shown in the patent drawings where a Darrieus VAWT at the surface is ~matched~ to HAWTs at the top via a bent shaft, which would have large elastic losses and severe fatigue cycles transmitting torque around a bend. There is also the common hodographic spiral to bend across in many wind columns.

Note that mirroring back your insulting language to others would only detract from continuing to point out new challenges to your drive-shaft AWE basis. Its quite enough to await with low expectation an honorable attempt to scale up an ST, and prove the skeptics wrong,

daveS


On Monday, August 25, 2014 6:36 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14036 From: dave santos Date: 8/25/2014
Subject: Re: Ken Conrad acquires Brooxes KAP; looks toward AWE R&D
Doug,

I cannot whine about the progress in AWE, but declare it to be rapid and wonderful. My fully resolved complaint with Gipe was that he did not understand the Makani AWES before ridiculing it in ignorance, but he corrected the error. He also gave us the definition of a "fantasy turbine" (ie. the ST) and pointed us to formal industry standards* required to validate a windpower-curve, as AWES begin to mature to that level of testing.

Your AWE whining takes the form of claiming falsely there is no AWE progress, no community intelligence, etc.. You could not even allow here that Ken Conrad and KAP have AWE connections, but only sourly whined that you saw no connection at all,

daveS

* Like IEC 61400-12 Wind turbine power performance testing.


On Monday, August 25, 2014 10:03 AM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14037 From: dave santos Date: 8/25/2014
Subject: Re: kites for study for cash
Rod,

The secret to money is not to need it desperately. Cut your R&D costs by working smaller (faster). Work with Ed closely, since he is on the money trail for open AWE, but needs all our help. If you have a humanitarian crisis, a micropayment can be made against equity. Never show desperation for money to a high-net-worth-individual (bet depend on a poor person for help and understanding). If you are broke, work harder, rather than await relief. What happened to "the Dole" in UK?

The Daisy seemed close to flying high while driving a cable-loop sloped slightly down-wind. You can build up a deeper pulley groove in the bike wheel by slitting a fitted tire along its middle to make two sidewalls, and reversing them to make an outward guide flange for the driven line. The tricky part is holding the Daisy from spinning until you have your loop tensioned at altitude (try a rolling start by launching with pretension from the side), but from there you should be able to show high speed load motion around a small capstan on the ground.

daveS


On Monday, August 25, 2014 7:00 AM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14038 From: dougselsam Date: 8/25/2014
Subject: Re: Jeo F. and Dave S. good AWE ideas
I answered your question exactly.  No interest in humoring you further.  Funny how the topic of this thread is your own good ideas, about which you seem to have no interest.