The HAWT is a helical-wave device. One clearly sees helicity in
but the real work is done by hidden helicity of the standing stress-wave
from a turbine blade into the generator shaft. Similarly, a looping kite
transfers energy downward as a helical wave. The
Tri-Tether is ideal to
convert helical kite waves into shaft power. Biological
Flagella are a nice
model for helical-wave mechanics in AWE, as the far slower macro scale
keeps the Re
spread within a dynamic similarity range.
Based on studies across many fields we can expect to create power stacks
of kites that self-organize powerful helical waves to drive tri-tethers.
Presume a nonrotating pilot-kite or pilot-stack at top to orient the
helical part upward. A tagline to the top of the power stack hauled
down crosswind will progressively depower or kill the helical-wave mode.
Fitting the pilot-kite or pilot-stack fitted with its own kill- or
tag-line allows total landing control of the AWECS. To scale greatly, a
mesh control plane held up by lifter kites can be set over a large dense
array of helical-wave AWECS. The entire array can be controlled
from one set of mechanical inputs.
~Dave Santos Feb.
Comment and development of this topic will be occurring here.
All, send notes, drawings, and photographs!
Terms and aspects:
Commentary is welcome:
- There is a deep body of potential furthering tech and theory that
could be added for the benefit of all.
Helical wake of a stack of oscillating kites? Farming challenges
for Tri-tether driving by oscillating kites?
Helical wake of mono-blade?
Helical wakes of double blades?
Helical wakes of triple blades?
Farms and the helical wakes? Resonance of helical wakes downwind with
Propagation of width of enclosing cylinder of helical wakes?
Von Karman vorticities and the towers and turbines?
The helical wave complex of the SuperTurbine®? Compared with one rotor?
Mining energy from helical-wave-saturated air?
Seeing helical wakes with instruments?
- Joe, You're doing a FANTASTIC job of agglomerating all thought on
Unfortunately, most of what is put forth is misguided and actually an
impediment to progress.
I've tried to explain that after 10 years of this SAME EXACT dynamic on
the "regular" wind turbine sites (be sure what I mean by "regular": They
WORK), I'm simply not going to take the endless stream of nonsense lying
Yes I will die on this hill.
We have crackpots galore in regular wind energy too - some of them are
VERY eloquent in their writing, like Dave S.These are actually the
worst, since most people unfamiliar with the art will confuse eloquent
writing styles with factual knowledge.
The idea that wave-like motions or oscillations can provide wind energy
has been beaten to death for 3000 years and NEVER been found
advantageous. There is NOTHING like a rotor, with a hub, spinning: It
can spin forever and never wear out, with no guidance needed - it just
does the job, period, which was why it was developed.
If other methods could work well, they would have already. The fact is
there is a standard mechanism for energy exchange in an open flow, it
is called a wind turbine rotor, it is the same as a
gyrocopter rotor, and that is all one needs to know to do AWE. It is
EASY EASY EASY to do AWE, NOT hard hard hard. There is NOTHING TO IT.
It is a PIECE OF CAKE!!! Why try and make it hard? Why ignore the simple
machines that have been proven to work?
The oscillating cycles etc. are just ways to create large amounts of
wear and early failure, in addition to being less efficient in the first
place! Double-blades etc. - all crackpot insanity from regular wind
As I've pointed out, without expertise in wind energy, there's nobody on
this list and pretty much nobody in this "industry" who even has A CLUE
about wind energy in general, LET ALONE how to generate electricity less
expensively by getting it airborne. Note: LESS expensively - hello Rube
Goldberg & Dr. Suess.
No matter how many resources are applied to AWE, if they are MISapplied,
they do more harm than good. Example: NASA gets involved and mistakes
Magenn for a legitimate AWE effort, mentioning an UNWORKABLE technology
in their report, while NOT mentioning a guy here who was ahead of Delfts
as a teenager, who can build a steady-state AWE turbine anytime with 1
moving part, in his sleep.
Who gets the credibility?
Why NASA of course.
Because they put a man on the moon 40 years ago.
Nevermind that they have already demonstrated that they are: 100%
ignorant of wind energy, evidenced by their mention of Magenn and their
prediction that Chinese drag-based machines will be the first to
The comment "excruciating" must be taken in context of the previous post
wherein I explained WHY it was so excruciating.
Joe, if there is a destination and a proven road to get there, why keep
asking where the road is?
Why keep talking about a million ill-advised paths to the destination
when we have
a proven path NOW that solves all the problems the others have?
Because It's just little old me and not NASA, NREL, ARPA-E or some other
wizard-of-oz-esque do-nothing smoke-and-mirrors tax-funded recreational
picnic with the usual zero results?
Facts are facts and results are results.
I suggest people who want to move forward in this field get with the
leader and that is Superturbine®.
- Feb. 4, 2011 Additional Notes-
The helical-wave view is a 3D projection of loop-waves we
normally consider in 2D space.
The Figure-of-Eight kite-sweep mode is an "octave"-
the horizontal-yaw frequency is in phase and double the vertical
pitch/surge frequency. The Loop kite-sweep mode is
matched-frequency horizontal and vertical
in-phase oscillation. A kite tends to start waggling in eight-mode and
end up in loop-mode as wind speed increases, with an awkward "chaotic"
transition zone in between. It is meaningful to think of these
Loop and Figure-of-Eight patterns as basic
though most folks only think of
The kite modes even produce
tones as musical notes, the octave eight is especially harmonious.
- Note to Doug: You wrote-
The idea that
wave-like motions or oscillations can provide wind energy
has been beaten to
death for 3000 years and NEVER been found advantageous."
Please give due notice that for well over 3000 years sailboats have
tacked back and forth, and that this wave-like wind-driven oscillation
was a solid energy basis for the first worldwide transportation
network. Even with all the modern HAWTS coming online its probable that
the entire power of the Age of Sail still well eclipses rotary
wind power. To this day almost all sailboats operate this way, even if
folks like me enjoy experimenting with
Similarly, the patterns traction kites sweep are powerful wave-like
oscillations. There are also early VAWT clapper mills (Klapotezt
) that did in fact serve ancient Persian and Chinese needs.
This forum is about principled examination of ideas not
argument. Your " eloquent crackpot" complaint fails to score in a proper
technical discussion. Please answer DaveL's simple questions if you want
to impress by integrity, rather than be moderated for
- "The WPI Kite System was designed to convert the oscillating
tether tension caused by the vertical motion of a kite into rotary
shaft motion to drive at generator in order to produce electricity."
Toydemir, C. Kuthan
- "All civilizations become either
-- Carl Sagan
Mastering AWECS might buy us some time to become spacefaring.
- We see that kites embody fundamental harmonic physics by how they
dance. The Loop & Figure of Eight power dance are fundamental waveforms.
Our AWECS will tune-up and play just like musical instruments,
especially those that avoid flying massive compressive structure by
balanced inertial, gyroscopic, and centrifugal forces.
The Pythagorean School would have gone totally nuts over this elegant
Intèrvals i corbes de Lissajous -Dima-VJ-
(see top of this page)