Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group. AWES970to1020

Page 19 of 552.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 970	From: Joe Faust	Date: 1/19/2010
Subject: David Thayer gives some instructions

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 971	From: dave santos	Date: 1/19/2010
Subject: Re: Industrial Scale AWE Launch by Surface-Tow

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 972	From: Dan	Date: 1/20/2010
Subject: Re: Challenge: Dynamic length-variable power-transferring endless-lo

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 973	From: dougselsam	Date: 1/20/2010
Subject: Re: Your Genny Data is complete!

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 974	From: Dan	Date: 1/20/2010
Subject: Re: Your Genny Data is Incomplete!

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 975	From: Joe Faust	Date: 1/20/2010
Subject: Re: Challenge: Dynamic length-variable power-transferring endless-lo

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 976	From: Darin Selby	Date: 1/20/2010
Subject: Re: Selsam Superturbine (Mountain gorges)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 977	From: Joe Faust	Date: 1/20/2010
Subject: Foshan, China

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 978	From: Darin Selby	Date: 1/20/2010
Subject: Contra-spinning Gorlov/Darrieus Wingblade Generator

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 979	From: Robert Stuart	Date: 1/20/2010
Subject: Re: Contra-spinning Gorlov/Darrieus Wingblade Generator [1 Attachmen

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 980	From: Darin Selby	Date: 1/20/2010
Subject: Re: Multi-sets of counter-rotating blades, generators aloft, lifted

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 981	From: Darin Selby	Date: 1/21/2010
Subject: Gorlov/Darrieus Wingblade Generator webpage

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 982	From: brooksdesign	Date: 1/21/2010
Subject: call for white papers

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 983	From: Joe Faust	Date: 1/21/2010
Subject: Re: Foshan, China

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 984	From: Joe Faust	Date: 1/22/2010
Subject: Re: Foshan, China

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 985	From: dave santos	Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: The Mysterious Dr. Zhang Jianjun

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 986	From: dougselsam	Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: Your Genny Data is Incomplete!

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 987	From: Joe Faust	Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Graphic reason for going up into 3 dimensions

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 988	From: brooksdesign	Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: Challenge: Dynamic length-variable power-transferring endless-lo

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 989	From: Dan	Date: 1/24/2010
Subject: Re: Your Genny Data is Incomplete!

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 990	From: Dan	Date: 1/24/2010
Subject: Re: Your Genny Data is Incomplete!

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 991	From: dougselsam	Date: 1/24/2010
Subject: Re: The Mysterious Dr. Zhang Jianjun

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 992	From: dave santos	Date: 1/24/2010
Subject: Stratospheric Return-Flow Resource

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 993	From: Dave Culp	Date: 1/24/2010
Subject: Re: Stratospheric Return-Flow Resource

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 994	From: brooksdesign	Date: 1/24/2010
Subject: CAD services

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 995	From: Joe Faust	Date: 1/24/2010
Subject: Re: Stratospheric Return-Flow Resource

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 996	From: harry valentine	Date: 1/25/2010
Subject: Selsam's multi-rotor

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 997	From: Dave Culp	Date: 1/25/2010
Subject: Re: Stratospheric Return-Flow Resource

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 998	From: dave santos	Date: 1/25/2010
Subject: Re: Stratospheric Return-Flow Resource

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 999	From: Joe Faust	Date: 1/25/2010
Subject: Re: Stratospheric Return-Flow Resource

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 1000	From: Dave Culp	Date: 1/25/2010
Subject: Re: Stratospheric Return-Flow Resource

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 1001	From: brooksdesign	Date: 1/25/2010
Subject: Finite Element Modeling

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 1002	From: spacecannon@san.rr.com	Date: 1/25/2010
Subject: Re: Finite Element Modeling

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 1003	From: dougselsam	Date: 1/26/2010
Subject: Re: Your Genny Data is Incomplete!

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 1004	From: Joe Faust	Date: 1/26/2010
Subject: New AWE option

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 1005	From: spacecannon@san.rr.com	Date: 1/28/2010
Subject: Re: Fw: SmartMatches found on the Go BIG Network

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 1006	From: spacecannon@san.rr.com	Date: 1/28/2010
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Special AWE opportunity

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 1007	From: Hardensoft International Limited	Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Special AWE opportunity

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 1008	From: spacecannon@san.rr.com	Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Special AWE opportunity

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 1009	From: Robert Stuart	Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Special AWE opportunity

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 1010	From: dave santos	Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Comparative R & D, plus Nigerian AWE Factor

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 1011	From: Hardensoft International Limited	Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Special AWE opportunity

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 1012	From: spacecannon@san.rr.com	Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: Comparative R & D, plus Nigerian AWE Factor

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 1013	From: spacecannon@san.rr.com	Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: Comparative R & D, plus Nigerian AWE Factor

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 1014	From: Hardensoft International Limited	Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Please......

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 1015	From: spacecannon@san.rr.com	Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Re: Please......

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 1016	From: dave santos	Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Comparative R & D as Best Practice

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 1017	From: dougselsam	Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Re: Please......

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 1018	From: dave santos	Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Doug still thinks AWE doesn't work...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 1020	From: Joe Faust	Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Incomplete list, but a start list of patents.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 970	From: Joe Faust	Date: 1/19/2010
Subject: David Thayer gives some instructions

DaveT (yep, an early "Dave" ) Welcome David Thayer from Boston, Mass. He feels close.

instructs: (click image)

His offerings seen by any of us:

1. Carry lifelines from shore to stranded vehicle.

2. Move things from place to place.

3. Tow things over water, land, ice.

4. Pilot kites

5. Left kites, central kites, right kites.

6. Keeping a kite down to steady an altitude while kite is let out.

7. Use of lifter balloons in kite systems.

8. Control of a dragging moving mooring while traveling in kite system from A to B.

9. Operate a two-body dynamic kiting system ...one in air and one in water or soil ...kept in balance during motion to effect net travel while keep human passengers comfortable aloft and without seasickness.

10. Awareness of harbor traffic by boats being tugged by kites.

11. Combine balloons with what he termed "pilot-kites"

12. ... what else do you see he saw and instructed????????????? /Fined in 1889. US Pat. 417755

I am searching for the longest trip by traveling kite system where human pilot is in the air and is controlling both the air kites and the lower water or soil kites . Contemporary Kramer, German, Santos, Culp, and others are contemplating breaking some records for the air-air mode. But what about the air-ground mode, air-ice mode, air-water mode, air-water-land-ice mode. A team traveling around the world non-stop by two-kite system. The pilots scooting around on the ground part is big sport these days, but the human pilot up in the kite controlling kite and ground-water-ice-soil kite from above in free travel is not such big sport yet.... Adding in the systems some electric generation for comforts, communications, fresh-water production, hydrogen production, etc. could extend the trips. Block the lower kite to stay in a place for some time. Etc.

David Thayer has provided quite a list of what is now public domain mechanical functions.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 971	From: dave santos	Date: 1/19/2010
Subject: Re: Industrial Scale AWE Launch by Surface-Tow

Dave Culp,

In this scheme the groundgen lives in place at the kitefield & the power kite is surface-towed to it from a local runway & handed off. The tow is freed to get another kite.

The massive tow vehicle does in fact replicate a child's running with a kite.

daveS

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 972	From: Dan	Date: 1/20/2010
Subject: Re: Challenge: Dynamic length-variable power-transferring endless-lo

Hi Joe and Group,

I envision something far simpler, lighter involving four pulleys max. Note one pulley will drive Genny. The one pulley drive at the top would somehow stay paralell with pulley, many configs for that, any ideas?

Dan'l

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 973	From: dougselsam	Date: 1/20/2010
Subject: Re: Your Genny Data is complete!

Dan'l:
The generators (3-phase alternators) are available at
http://www.PM-ALT.com :)
Weight 35 lbs, site lists volts per RPM for each model, distance between 1/2" mounting bolts.
Thanks
Doug Selsam

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 974	From: Dan	Date: 1/20/2010
Subject: Re: Your Genny Data is Incomplete!

Doug,
I can see a run around happening here, appareently you don't have all the tech data on generators. end of discussion.

Dan'l

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 975	From: Joe Faust	Date: 1/20/2010
Subject: Re: Challenge: Dynamic length-variable power-transferring endless-lo

Dan Parker of SpiralAirfoil Airborne pointed to using off-ground hold of a fourth pulley held by anchored control line. Having the off-ground hold of the long 1000 meter endless loop for letting out and hauling in. Such solution is saying that the full ground, sans the poles's bases, overcomes the "ground footprint" part of the challenge. He further noted to me in off-group message that the very electrical distribution high lines and pole holders could be considered for holding and controlling the AWECS working loop. This seems to be an in-air solution somewhat like Bob Stuart's in-hole (double using deep hydro banking) hold of the few pulley solution. Total AWECS endless-loop that stays working during outhaul and inhauling: four pulleys; set the generator as wanted, perhaps using one of the pulley points.

Dan also noted that when a canyon is available, then the sides of the canyons might hold the long endless loop before feeding the loop to the sky.

Double use assets.

....

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 976	From: Darin Selby	Date: 1/20/2010
Subject: Re: Selsam Superturbine (Mountain gorges)

It looks like it's shredded tweet for the raptors!

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: joefaust333@gmail.com
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 20:34:19 +0000
Subject: [AWECS] Re: Selsam Superturbine (Mountain gorges)

Application by Selsam

Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. Get it now.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 977	From: Joe Faust	Date: 1/20/2010
Subject: Foshan, China

Foshan to Build China 1st High-altitude Wind Power Project

FOSHAN, Jan 14, 2010 -- SinoCast Daily Business Beat

Foshan

Type: City

Name: Foshan

Country: China

Latitude: 23.030001

Longitude: 113.120003

population: 627,348

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 978	From: Darin Selby	Date: 1/20/2010
Subject: Contra-spinning Gorlov/Darrieus Wingblade Generator

Attachments :

GorlovHDarrieusWingblades.JPG

Joe, this is my latest drawing that brings four Gorlov turbines together into two contra-rotating assemblies. By sending this drawing to you means that this is now in PUBLIC DOMAIN. As well as all of my other drawings submitted, it is now freely given to humanity. If there is any merit or novelty to be found, no one can patent, hoard, or manipulate others with it. ~Darin

Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now.

@@attachment@@

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 979	From: Robert Stuart	Date: 1/20/2010
Subject: Re: Contra-spinning Gorlov/Darrieus Wingblade Generator [1 Attachmen

Are you sure that the new "First-to-File" laws don't let others patent this? Maybe disclosure weakens their position?

Curious,
Bob

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 980	From: Darin Selby	Date: 1/20/2010
Subject: Re: Multi-sets of counter-rotating blades, generators aloft, lifted

Attachments :

helical-darrieus-rotor.jpg

Joe, this was a drawing that I made on 10-01-09 without the knowlege yet of this one mentioned.

Why spin the entire axis/tether when two blades can contra-rotate and cancel their torque on the electric generator that is in-between. Rotating an entire axis, such as shown in this picture: http://www.inhabitat.com/2008/05/15/selsam-superturbines-take-flight/ wastes much energy with the continual flexing of the tether while it rotates.

Even with this improvement over the Selsam design, compare that to a contra-rotating Gorlov turbine generator assembly for its quietness in high winds, ability to spin faster than the wind itself, & more flying creature-friendly than chopping propellers, contra-spinning or not. ~Darin

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: joefaust333@gmail.com
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 18:11:41 +0000
Subject: [AWECS] Multi-sets of counter-rotating blades, generators aloft, lifted system

(WO/2009/142979) AIRBORNE WIND TURBINE ELECTRICITY GENERATING SYSTEM

Moshe Meller has some critique of Magenn and Sky WindPower machines. There are some other interesting details instructed. E.g. Notice the off-center training; he instructs an advantage in that detail. Another: Once up, as needed, some lower gained energy might drive a lifting helicopter body above. Does this have something DougS will care about? DavidInisrael? SkyMill Energy?

Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. Sign up now.

@@attachment@@

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 981	From: Darin Selby	Date: 1/21/2010
Subject: Gorlov/Darrieus Wingblade Generator webpage

Joe, here is a link http://darinselby.1hwy.com/GorlovTurboSail.html that which demonstrates four Gorlov turbines together into two contra-rotating assemblies.

By sending this drawing to this group, means that this is now in the PUBLIC DOMAIN. As well as all of my other drawings submitted, it is freely given to humanity. If there is any merit or novelty to be found in it, no one can patent, hoard, or manipulate others with it. ~Darin

Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. Sign up now.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 982	From: brooksdesign	Date: 1/21/2010
Subject: call for white papers

Group: Unmanned Systems Network
Subject: AUVSI - Call For Papers
The call for papers for AUVSI's Unmanned Systems North American Conference has been extended to January 29th.

AUVSI's Unmanned Systems North America 2010
The World's Largest Unmanned Systems Event
24-27 August, 2010
Denver, Colorado, USA
DEADLINE - Call for Papers closes 29 January 2010

TRACKS AND SUGGESTED TOPICS
Autonomy—Algorithms, Applications and Maintenance
Topics of Interest include testing and evaluation of multiple levels of autonomous control, mission management technologies and maintaining system intelligence.

Guidance, Navigation & Control Technologies
Topics of interest include sense and avoid, common control and multiple vehicle teaming.

Novel Missions and Special Applications
Topics of interest include arctic applications research, environmental monitoring research, public safety applications research, firefighting research and crash investigations/lessons learned.

Operator Interfacing
Topics of interest include situational awareness and human-computer interaction.

Training, Standards, Operations and Maintenance
Topics of interest include training programs and techniques, application and development of standards, operations and lifecycle maintenance, case studies and research data.

Unmanned Systems Integration
Topics of interest include research into technologies or methods for integrating unmanned systems into mission environments.

http://symposium.auvsi.org/auvsi10/public/enter.aspx
Posted By Brian Cox

________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 983	From: Joe Faust	Date: 1/21/2010
Subject: Re: Foshan, China

Kite power is indeed an Up and Down happening. That quality has hit the Foshan project.
Signing confirmation for the big project is not going to happen next week as planned.
Variables and restriction played to have a team of professionals put a big stall in the project.
Story as I have it comes from:

1st High-altitude Wind Power Project Is Full of Variables Jan 21, 2010

The tip came in from the Sky WindPower team; thanks to Len and PJ Shepaerd.

The thrust of the inventor is finding some further focus in another province. Something to watch.

================================================================

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 984	From: Joe Faust	Date: 1/22/2010
Subject: Re: Foshan, China

Correction of name spelling:
Correct:
Len Shepard
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/len-shepard/10/a80/92a
PJ Shepard
Sky WindPower
http://www.skywindpower.com/ww/index.htm

Recall the early progress by David H. Shepard
http://www.energykitesystems.net/DavidHShepard/index.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_H._Shepard

Commit to charge device batteries by AWECS?

The following document reference David H. Shepard's works:

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 985	From: dave santos	Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: The Mysterious Dr. Zhang Jianjun

We have awaited a strong Asian response to years of western AWE buzz, but this is weird.

Who is this mysterious Dr. Zhang Jianjun, said to have picked up kite tech in California & then founded a Chinese AWE research center ?

Insiders know that the chances of someone unknown to power kite culture being ready to launch a 100mw facility is about nil. A stealth program including corporate espionage might explain a hidden AWE capability. Chinese to English spelling quirks may be hiding a net presence for Dr. Zhang or he might have operated under an alias. Claimed United Nations participation is inconsistent with a either a secret government or corporate program. That Foshan city officials could swat down the project implies the national government is not behind it. The area does look like a good offshore site for sea-breeze boosted trade winds.

Clearly there is a lot more to this story. It would not surprise if some shadowy lurker on the AWE list is eyeball deep. Does anyone know anything further?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 986	From: dougselsam	Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: Your Genny Data is Incomplete!

Dan'l: If you have any specific questions about my generators (3-phase alternators) I could consider answering them.
Thx
Doug

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 987	From: Joe Faust	Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Graphic reason for going up into 3 dimensions

Graphic reason for going up into 3 dimensions:

Wind Turbines Leave Clouds and Energy Inefficiency in Their Wake

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 988	From: brooksdesign	Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: Challenge: Dynamic length-variable power-transferring endless-lo

This is the method I have been working on. It is meant as a method to transfer the mechanical energy from any rotating pulley system to the ground via and endless loop of variable length. The length of the loop can be changed while in operation.

http://www.energykitesystems.net/ZapKites/endlessloopspool50.html

I'll post an animation of the device in operation when time permits.

-brooks

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A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 989	From: Dan	Date: 1/24/2010
Subject: Re: Your Genny Data is Incomplete!

Doug,

Because it is so rare to find wind generator companies that actually honestly publish the actual constant loads in ohms from which they generate their wind speed/ voltage outputs from I have to question most published results by the generator companies. We make our decison based on Ohms law.I am particularly interested in what the raw 3 phase generator output/rpm curve looks like when the generator is under a constant load of 10 ohms on each phase of the generator. Without a publish load factor in ohms there is no way to we can truly substantiate your power curve as published.Please provide me with load data in ohms from which you have determined your publishings so that we can make an informed decision. Thank You

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 990	From: Dan	Date: 1/24/2010
Subject: Re: Your Genny Data is Incomplete!

Doug,
Because it is so rare to find wind generator companies that actually honestly publish the actual constant loads in ohms from which they generate their wind speed/ voltage outputs from I have to question most published results by the generator companies. We make our decison based on Ohms law.I am particularly interested in what the raw 3 phase generator output/rpm curve looks like when the generator is under a constant load of 10 ohms on each phase of the generator. Without a publish load factor in ohms there is no way to we can truly substantiate your power curve as published.Please provide me with load data in ohms from which you have determined your publishings so that we can make an informed decision. Thank You

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 991	From: dougselsam	Date: 1/24/2010
Subject: Re: The Mysterious Dr. Zhang Jianjun

OK Guys here is a great opportunity to see the difference between truth and nontruth, results and no results. With any kind of luck, they will emulate the kites and reels they see attempted on paper over here and not get beyond that. Otherwise we may see them actually succeed, but I highly doubt it.

See if there is ONE THING that NEVER STOPS in wind energy, it is people who have no experience actually generating significant power from wind in any way, tossing aside all that has been learned in 3000 years of wind energy technology to start fresh, using their own personal crackpot ideas that they don't realize, and will never acknowledge, are entirely 100% predictable and indeed symptomatic of newbies to wind energy. Of course they always want to denigrate existing technology, and claim to be about to revolutionize wind power, while putting forth unworkable garbage by comparison.

Invariably the machines will be drag-based, traveling downwind then upwind again, with a shielded or adjusted-pitch upwind cycle, or in the case of the real losing designs, a reciprocating cycle, complete with a downwind-traveling power path that reduces the relative wind speed by 50%, a "downtime" non-power-producing return path in every cycle, with no real way to translate the resulting low energy capture to usable power, like for instance a generator spinning at a constant RPM.

The inventors will never acknowledge anything about real power production, but instead talk of the energy storage technology they will need to develop to make their 2% - 3% efficient drag-based contraptions into something that the grid can recognize as usable power. Often in lieu of power production, they will talk of the vastness of the resource, and cite the fact that their slowly-traveling, high-solidity blades are unlikely to hurt a living creature. (Not saying, and not knowing, that they are also unlikely to produce usable power.)

All these statement of superior technology are strangely seldom accompanied by any actual power production at all, let alone be shown superior to existing blades, which produce from 40 to 400 watts per pound, turning actual generators.

After raising millions they will slowly fade away with no explanation of what exactly in their plan went awry. We have seen it so many times it is, at this point, a case of "there is one born every minute".

So, like global warming and so many other notions, all you have to do is "stay tuned" and watch for the results.

Watching for results is a great way to see how much of what you are constantly fed is complete nonsense. I would love to see something great developed in the field of flying wind turbines so let's stay tuned, remember what was said, and see if it actually happens, OK?

Note: facts may be hazardous to the mental stability of those who are factually-challenged so be careful, and stay strong - you can handle it! :)))
Doug S.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 992	From: dave santos	Date: 1/24/2010
Subject: Stratospheric Return-Flow Resource

Tropopausal Jet Streams are the most energetic regions of wind. The strong shear between these winds & lower winds have suggested to aviation visionaries a "free-flight" paradise where, without fuel or lifting gas, opposed tethered foils can sustain flight for extended periods of controlled long distance travel.

A problem is the common presence of weather in the lower region, but lower wind recycles as diffuse stratospheric return-flow clear of pesky weather. This upper-wind runs, usefully for free-flight, opposed or crosswise to lower-wind. Yes, air density is low & windspeed drops off, but this return-flow is the most reliable & smooth wind of all.

Decades of membrane-based stratospheric ballooning inform that a suitably designed soft kite will work above the tropopause. Emergent graphene-based materials greatly enhance potential. The stratospheric upper-flow kite can be opposed by a much hotter smaller sweeping foil dangled in the tropopause. Predicted global flow patterns can be routinely chased.

This AWE concept enjoys unbeatable wind availability.

coopip

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 993	From: Dave Culp	Date: 1/24/2010
Subject: Re: Stratospheric Return-Flow Resource

It's cool that you're writing about this, Dave, but this subject has been exhaustively investigated and written about for decades. I thought I was early when I posted it publicly in 1993, but I was mistaken; twin kite flight along the jet stream interface has been proposed many times, at least as long ago as 1980. It is well and truly put into the public domain.

Dave

Sent from my iPhone

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 994	From: brooksdesign	Date: 1/24/2010
Subject: CAD services

Anyone wanting CAD drawing versions of the crude sketches I have seen presented on this list, I offer my drafting services billed at $30/hr. This includes paying me for the time spent consulting and trying to interpret their nearly useless text type diagrams and putting real numbers and dimensions(engineering) to their said vague interpretations. Anyone complaining about the lack of details in MY drawings should be prepared to shell out some big bucks or kiss my overworked ass. I just donated 5 hours of my time to describe a method that some now say was already well known yet none had mentioned in a week of discussion on the subject of endless loop schemes that required vastly more footprint.
As Doug would probably agree, you got a better idea? Shut up and build it yourself and prove it! And by that I mean something that will work for more than an afternoon on the beach needing constant supervision and adjustments.
-brooks

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Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 995	From: Joe Faust	Date: 1/24/2010
Subject: Re: Stratospheric Return-Flow Resource

Richard Miller in 1967 in his book
Without Visible Means of Support
carefully described the free-flight two-kite scenarios.

Richard was a former editor of Soaring magazine
for Soaring Society of America.

We would then in 1970s oft repeat Richard's visions.

Dale C/ Kramer, soaring champion has been plotting his
chances for flying a two-kite manned system. His patent
application on such supports his planning.

Smart well-informed two-kite free-flight dynamic soaring systems
may even go further than free-flight; while operating some energy
may be mined from the wind for use in the system, as Dale has
noted. Just how much two-kite free-flight systems might one day
mine upper wind energies while dynamically soaring ...for sending
excess energy via beams to other aircraft or ground stations is
up for figuring.

First manned trial flights have accidentally been made with the two-kite flying; actually, some very deliverate two-kite systems are being flown nearly daily in the world now in sport powerkiting where the kiteboard and kitesurfer's body form the lower kite during what they term as high jumps; during the flight the upper powerkite is in one wind situation and the kiteboard and surfer is in another wind situation; the kitesurfer controls the board and body and the upper powerkite to fly in long high jumps.

Some long hobby two-kite systems have flown good distances as the lower dragging kite is pulled along by the upper kite and the whole system was released, probably illegally.

Of course, the kiteship is a two-kite system using the flow of air and the flow of water smartly; the hull being the lower kite.

One could go deeper: air-kite tugging its soil kite.

Bottomline: The two air-kite systems will get smart enough to give frequent travel and even energy production. FF-AWE is the tenth scale category in one AWECS categorization published. Free-Flight AWE. Such is a focus for Wayne German also. Rumor has it that a team is gradually assembling to make some earnest trials of manned flight; but severe RC unmanned efforts have been recommended first.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 996	From: harry valentine	Date: 1/25/2010
Subject: Selsam's multi-rotor

The Government of Greenland has expressed interest in developing wind energy resources. There are numerous fiords and oceanic inlets around the coast of Greenland (an offshore province of Denmark) . . . ideal locations for Selsam's multi-rotor technology. More often than not, the boundary layer effect would steer winds into most of the fiords.

The only wind power measurements done around Greenland have been at a height of 10-meters, with average wind speeds around 5.55-metres per second.

Harry

Say Happy New Year with Messenger for Mobile. See more.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 997	From: Dave Culp	Date: 1/25/2010
Subject: Re: Stratospheric Return-Flow Resource

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 998	From: dave santos	Date: 1/25/2010
Subject: Re: Stratospheric Return-Flow Resource

David Culp,

While Free-Flight has been dreamed about for decades it has not been "exhaustively investigated" (nothing about kites has). Many newbies are hearing about such matters for the first time & we often raise such old chestnuts for them. If you know of worthy examination of Free-Flight practice please point me. I am doing small scale experiments & any known art helps.

This thread is intended to highlight the peculiar wind resource above the troposphere & the Free-Flight angle is somewhat incidental. If you have seen consideration of kite flight at this altitude, please advise.

daveS

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 999	From: Joe Faust	Date: 1/25/2010
Subject: Re: Stratospheric Return-Flow Resource

Dale C. Kramer
Patent Applicaton

Richard Miller
Without Visible Means of Support
Type: Book Language: English Publisher: [Los Angeles, Printed by Parker, 1967]

Reference1
Reference2
Reference3
Book review: Richard Miller, "Without Visible Means of Support, October, 1967, page 26, of Soaring magazine, Soaring Society of America
Reference5
Reference6
Reference7 His book referenced in a key performance work .
Reference8 I just bought a book from UK, so I can share it when I get it in the mail. They had one copy.
The book is in several libraries, perhaps one near you. Click and set your address or zip code .

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 1000	From: Dave Culp	Date: 1/25/2010
Subject: Re: Stratospheric Return-Flow Resource

Apologies, Dave. I meant no criticism of your writing, only that it might include the fact that others have investigated--and written exhaustively--about the subject (sorry for saying it differently the first time--the above is what I meant to say!). The subject fully deserves to be bought up again and yet again; we all stand on the shoulders of the giants who went before us. Something I remind myself of daily...

Thanks so much, Joe, for the references. You rock!

Dave

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 1001	From: brooksdesign	Date: 1/25/2010
Subject: Finite Element Modeling

DaveC

This is exactly why I'm focusing most of my real AWE efforts on the Universal Energy Management Data Acquisition Device...to get the real numbers to required to do said modeling. I'm not sold on any of the AWE concepts as a sure thing but the variable endless loop question got me thinking and I responded with the solution shown as a possible option. As you have no doubt noticed, lots of people working on different schemes for airborne devices but very few working in the real nuts and bolts on the other end of those strings. That's where I come in. My experience includes decades of helping my dad and brother doing Data Acquisition and Finite Element Modeling for NASA and the auto industry. I myself am not a PE but I know which devices (and how to calibrate them) are needed to get the data required to come up with those real numbers. And yes, the UEMDAD is just the first step in getting the data, the system required to take in that data and do the calculations will require the real engineers which will not come cheap. They are starting to show some interest and if I build what I say I can they have offered to look at the job and consider writng a grant to held defer the huge expense. Then we can finally separate the....lift from the drag?.....the load from the charge?....(insert your analogy here)
-brooks

________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 1002	From: spacecannon@san.rr.com	Date: 1/25/2010
Subject: Re: Finite Element Modeling

I'm doing CFD studies, not far enough along to do FEM. Spacecannon aka Lynn
---- brooksdesign <brooksdesign@peoplepc.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 1003	From: dougselsam	Date: 1/26/2010
Subject: Re: Your Genny Data is Incomplete!

OK Ohm's law:
I remember one video on youtube of a generator, I think it was a "36-Volt" model, hitting 5000 watts mounted on a truck with four 5-foot propellers. This genny was thinner than the ones we make now. The ones we make now are 50% thicker (more power).
But that one hit something like 70-something amps at like 70-something volts, so applying V=ir would give r = 1 ohm?
And I guess that would be the resistance of the battery bank?

You're asking for a complete data set charging into a 10-ohm load? For all RPM's? For every voltage generator we offer? Well that would be a good project for someone I guess. If you could find a load that stayed at 10 ohms at all temps, but the resistance rises with temp.

Yes you are right, we don't have data published for a certain amount of amps at a certain RPM through a certain number of Ohms.
but I guarantee that no matter how much of such info we could provide, the questions will never end with people who don't really know what they want anyway. This stuff can be made as complicated as one wishes, or as simple.

People who understand wind turbines and alternators can look at this and know what they are getting. It is a good alternator. Much much much more powerful than the Delco-10-Si based alternators you see on E-Bay every day. I really can't spend all day jumping through hoops for people who are never going to buy one anyway, ya know?
But they can make practically as much power as you could imagine if you can keep them cool.

Other companies routinely publish:
1) open-voltage vs RPM info (genny unloaded) to allow the user to determine their cut-in speed (RPM)
2) current info with the generator shorted out (almost infinite current possible)
the deception occurs when they multiply these two numbers and try to say you could get the max current and max voltage simultaneously, which you cannot since power is voltage x current, and you normally have a tradeoff at any power level of voltage versus currernt, which is highly dependent on the exact voltage model of our generator, the voltage it is wound for, the load it is charging into, and the RPM.

I normally can spot the likely purchasers versus those who want to question our product's integrity while they are unable to really grasp a simple 3-phase permanent-magnet alternator, but since you asked online and maybe there are other people wondering the same thing, I am spending a little more time answering your question more specifically, but overall, experienced wind energy people understand exactly what this is, and so do many others who are likely to be able to actually use it.

Thanks for asking
Doug S.
http://www.PM-ALT.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 1004	From: Joe Faust	Date: 1/26/2010
Subject: New AWE option

AWE site subscription for access to notes, studies, topic discussions,
drawings, articles, reports, patents and commentary, and more.
Click ==

Lift to you and yours,

JoeF

PS: Following the many wonderful lessons of 2009, a new option has been started.
Each in this group is invited to the new sector.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 1005	From: spacecannon@san.rr.com	Date: 1/28/2010
Subject: Re: Fw: SmartMatches found on the Go BIG Network

I know I suggested this to Joe but in truth Im not ready to go to VC or angels yet, I have to finish my proof of concept and CFD studies, I have to have hard proof or they will just get pissed for waisting their time.
Lynn AKA Spacecannon
---- dave santos <santos137@yahoo.com As I mentioned, here is a list of potential AWE funders.
Can we have a dedicated 'co-operative' follow-up on each of these leads by anyone on behalf of the AWE group?
JohnO

SmartMatch Results

Investors Available ( view all 5)

DAVID WUNDER - BOSTON , MA (USA)

Company: PLP CAPITAL INVESTMENTS
John Lawler - Melrose , MA (USA)

Company: N/A
John Fisher - Andover , MA (USA)

Company: Stuart & Stern
Patricia Shaughnessy - Salem , MA (USA)

Company: Shaughnessy Marukelli LLC
Jerry Bailey - Centerville , OH (USA)

Company: Global Star Capital
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Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 1006	From: spacecannon@san.rr.com	Date: 1/28/2010
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Special AWE opportunity

John O. and Group,
I did suggest this as a group effort but I have to admit I never considered my project as part of the group because mine is so different than the others, we could canvas as a group but an investor will want to get in bed with an indivual on one project and maybe more than one but investors would keep funding separate, for business/legal reasons.
Lynn
P.S. IMHO Nigerian businessmen are not safe to do business with, too much dirty money there and scam artists.

---- dave santos <santos137@yahoo.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 1007	From: Hardensoft International Limited	Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Special AWE opportunity

Thanks Lynn,
A local adage does say '"only one indigene of Okere did steal and we now label every citizen of Okere as 'thieves'". As a Nigerian, I have had to face this skepticism from people and my response has always been "Yes, even amongst the twelve apostles, there was a Judas, but Judas did not characterize the twelve."
Individuals must yet be allowed to show themselves for who they truly are.
Sincere regards.
John Oyebanji

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 1008	From: spacecannon@san.rr.com	Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Special AWE opportunity

John O.,
My appologies to you as an individual, but I work on a statistical basis, and the risk has to be worth the reward, I just feel there are "safer" pastures for my cash cow, there just are not that many places in Africa I would consider politically stable enough for a multidecade utility project held aloft with hydrogen gas, I have to have some place where people won't shoot at it. Kites would not be as vulnerable. I feel there are many honest and good businessmen in Nigeria and Africa, but statistically its everyone else you have to watch out for. Its not that I have fear of doing business there, its just a question of prudence.
Lynn
---- Hardensoft International Limited <hardensoftintl@yahoo.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 1009	From: Robert Stuart	Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Special AWE opportunity

Well said, John. It is harder to be good when one is being punished unjustly. You remind me of an old Chinese story. A farmer could not find his hoe, and as he searched, he saw his neighbor's boy sneaking past like a thief. Then, he found his hoe, and saw the boy return, walking normally.

Bob Stuart

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 1010	From: dave santos	Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Comparative R & D, plus Nigerian AWE Factor

Lynn,

The list is now made aware by your posts that many small players in AWE are positioned for "second round" investment. Anyone working ernestly in the field is invited to join KiteLab Group, which is on the move. What is most needed is rigorous comparative AWE research of all the competing ideas to clearly sort out winners & losers. So banding together small AWE players, with diverse competing approaches, makes sense.

As for "dirty money" & "scam artists" in our field, the current threat is hardly from Nigeria but from "Silicon Valley" culture. I am an inside observer of several decades of tech bubbles crafted by venture capitalists who pass as respectable. Grandma's IRA has been ravished. By contrast my Nigerian friends are superior people. JohnO is doing a fantastic job developing opportunities for KiteLab Group.

Nigeria will prove a powerhouse in key new technologies, including AWE, just as surely as the US has had its own (human-universal) legacy of corruption. In particular an AWE R & D partnership of US & Nigerian universities is coming together. Manufacturing & training initiatives are being launched. There are many worthy Nigerian AWE developments that this list has not yet read about, but stay tuned...

daveS

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 1011	From: Hardensoft International Limited	Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Special AWE opportunity

To be fair, Lynn; Africa does have her challenges, I agree. But Africa and moreso Nigeria is perhaps the place of most opportunities yet untapped on planet earth. Fortunately, the era of totalitarian despotic rulers on the continent is fast giving way to democratic governance such as you are more used to. All investments has it's fair risk and entrepreneurship nay pioneering is certainly not for the 'faint-hearted' or the 'risk-aversed'.
Thanks for your humility and the apology is well taken.
Most sincere regards.
John Oyebanji

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 1012	From: spacecannon@san.rr.com	Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: Comparative R & D, plus Nigerian AWE Factor

Hey, go for it Dave, Im just saying its not my cup of tea, Im staying out of russia and mexico also. Im not saying doing business doesn't have risk, I just like to mitigate the risk, silicone valley is full of sharks, but at least we have a semi-fair legal system here, and well defined property rights laws. You have to cover your own tail in business, and that means knowing the laws, Im not going to try learn 3 or 4 other legal systems, and if you think you'll be safe hiring a lawyer in the other country your mistaken. You bring your own hired guns and they have to learn their system and you need 2-3 lawyers per system. Did you ever read the Art of War and how it relates to business? if not then your not prepared.
Lynn

---- dave santos <santos137@yahoo.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 1013	From: spacecannon@san.rr.com	Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: Comparative R & D, plus Nigerian AWE Factor

Dave,
What do you mean "that many small players in AWE are positioned for 'second round' investment"? I posted no such thing nor did I imply it. You want "comparative research" to sort out the winners and loosers, what are you saying, we should all get together and tell those you don't think their idea won't work. Not very nice dude. As an independant you can look at the group as if your right and everyone else is wrong or you can work and wish everybody luck, not worrying whoose the winners and loosers and just try to make your idea into a winner. Rarely have I seen anything entreprenewial accomplished by a committee. Colaboration is good and is exactly what this forum is, I have gotten lots of good info from these posts and have contributed some. So whats your problem? I think you misinterpreted half of what I said and over reacted to the other half.
Lynn
---- dave santos <santos137@yahoo.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 1014	From: Hardensoft International Limited	Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Please......

Gentlemen,

Please, let's make progress as a family. Brothers do have their misunderstandings too.

I harbour no grudge and Lynn certainly has his points while we all including DaveS are entittled to our individual opinions, friends, associates and choice of where and when to invest.

Here is wishing all bountiful returns on our various investments and labours.

Best of Lifts.

JohnO

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 1015	From: spacecannon@san.rr.com	Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Re: Please......

John,
You are an enlightened man, my respect grows for you everytime I read your posts. Let me try to explain my previous post, Investors on this continent would not not be happy if I took their money and went to another continent to do business. Granted there are good honest investors everywhere, but their Govt's are not always the most friendly with out alot of bribs and the truth is thats about 50% of the Govt's out there, Ive done business in Columbia and talk about a snake pit, my project is a long term utility with long term payback, I cant go to my investors and say the govt no longer wants us there because we missed our annual "payment", granted the U.S. has its annual payments and permits also but everything is up front and nothing out of the blue (usuallY).
Lynn
---- Hardensoft International Limited <hardensoftintl@yahoo.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 1016	From: dave santos	Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Comparative R & D as Best Practice

Lynn,

When you posted a thread to the list that contained private content from an off-list thread you were prematurely "announcing" KiteLab Group biz intent. This was not secret info, but an incomplete picture to append.

The push for comparative analysis & testing with independent partners in academia will reduce the number of poor ideas in play. Every AWE effort should be comparing its schemes with all others. All are welcome to join this approach with KiteLab Group & eventually fly-off their best prototypes toe-to-toe with other concepts (hopefully WSIKF 2010 for AKA/FAA Cat-1 compliant demos, stay tuned).

It seems your major challenge is not being shot down over Nigeria but being shot down by the FAA. Never mind simply proving that your LTA offers a winning AWE technology edge, the hydrogen you mentioned as a lifting gas requires convincing the FAA that one can make a certifiably airworthy usage, a far bigger challenge than doing profitable business in Nigeria. However much money you have (your "cash cow") to accomplish this is probably not enough.. Also understand that to defend & maybe lose a hot patent dispute in the more developed legal systems costs millions.

At least small developers whose ideas eventually prove unworkable can hopefully enjoy a bit of R & D support in the weeding process. Please remember that the KiteLab approach has never fixated on any one pet AWE scheme, but will go with any emergent winning technology as it proves out. This is essential agile engineering. Anyone who likes this path is invited to join the cooperative effort.

daveS

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 1017	From: dougselsam	Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Re: Please......

It amazes me that people can go on and on about peripheral issues and never have anything that actually works. Why worry about whether you will do business in various continents, countries - and of course we must discuss the most unlikely candidates first, right? One more excuse for one more day of no progress? "Well if only those Nigerians were more trustworthy we might have something flying by now!" uh uh... - try your own backyard. You are not ready for first or second round funding if you don't have something that can even work or any system anywhere that powers anything. This is stagnation in action. Nothingness masquerading as somethingness. Imagine if all the time spent blogging here was instead spent developing working systems. As though invoking the name and arguing about Nigeria is going to get your nonworking system up and flying. Preposterous.
:) Just a friendly observation :)))
Doug S.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 1018	From: dave santos	Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Doug still thinks AWE doesn't work...

Doug,

Please be ready to prove quite mistaken about whether anyone has working AWE prototypes. You seemed to conclude without explanation that Mario's published power curves were a lie, so continue now to TUDelft. If you need help with search ask off-list.

Did you ever finally find KiteLab's online content (link below) extensively describing more than three years of public small-scale AWE demos of varied designs? Yes, Lynn does not seem close to a working prototype, but so what, the future is still bright for tapping winds aloft & brainstorming technique requires giving even unlikely sounding ideas a hearing. The AWE list welcomes visionary ideas.

Once again, for the record, AWE is shown workable by many successful experiments.The leaders are now well into optimization studies. Its a very exciting period. If you are unable to replicate anyone's claim or make your own AWE ideas work it does not mean everyone else has similarly failed.

daveS

PS Lynn's unfortunate off-topic slur against Nigeria needed a strong response. Please allow such digressions without endless lamenting.

Sorry for the stale content, more recent demos are covered in list posts-

http://www.main.org/polycosmos/biosquat/KiteLab.htm

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 1020	From: Joe Faust	Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Incomplete list, but a start list of patents.

Free from AirborneWindEnergy:
Password to open the document is "AWE"
without quotation marks,
case-sensitive, avoid use of spacebar:
PDF document, 3 pages,
37 patent or application titles, inventor, filing date, reference number,
and direct link to full patent documents.
=

Questions? Patents@AirborneWindEnergy.com