Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                          AWES 27244 to 27293 Page 436 of 440.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27244 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/8/2019
Subject: Re: AWES farm in bumper car mode

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27245 From: dave santos Date: 7/8/2019
Subject: Planting Trees with Kite Power (review and update)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27246 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/8/2019
Subject: International Organization For Dew Utilization

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27247 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/8/2019
Subject: Parked nonflying kite wings working as dew water harvesters?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27248 From: dave santos Date: 7/8/2019
Subject: Re: International Organization For Dew Utilization

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27249 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/8/2019
Subject: Re: Parked nonflying kite wings working as dew water harvesters?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27250 From: dave santos Date: 7/8/2019
Subject: More Power Kite Hydrology and Meteorology Ideas

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27251 From: dave santos Date: 7/8/2019
Subject: Re: Toy Wind Turbines that beat Betz (review)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27252 From: dave santos Date: 7/8/2019
Subject: Aerospace neglects Betz Limit

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27253 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/8/2019
Subject: Re: Aerospace neglects Betz Limit

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27254 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/8/2019
Subject: Re: Aerospace neglects Betz Limit

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27255 From: dougselsam Date: 7/9/2019
Subject: Re: International Organization For Dew Utilization

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27256 From: dougselsam Date: 7/9/2019
Subject: Re: Aerospace neglects Betz Limit

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27257 From: dave santos Date: 7/9/2019
Subject: Re: Aerospace neglects Betz Limit

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27258 From: dougselsam Date: 7/9/2019
Subject: Re: Aerospace neglects Betz Limit

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27259 From: dave santos Date: 7/9/2019
Subject: Re: Aerospace neglects Betz Limit

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27260 From: dougselsam Date: 7/9/2019
Subject: Re: Aerospace neglects Betz Limit

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27261 From: dave santos Date: 7/9/2019
Subject: Re: Aerospace neglects Betz Limit

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27262 From: dave santos Date: 7/9/2019
Subject: AWE Session at US Control Conference (Late Notice)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27263 From: dave santos Date: 7/9/2019
Subject: Frédéric Bourgault, PhD Principal AWE Scientist at New Leaf Manage

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27264 From: dave santos Date: 7/9/2019
Subject: "Bringing flight physics into the Quantum Era" Airbus Challenge

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27265 From: dave santos Date: 7/9/2019
Subject: Latest Spider "Ballooning" (power kiting) Science- Electrostatics

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27266 From: dave santos Date: 7/9/2019
Subject: Re: Latest Spider "Ballooning" (power kiting) Science- Electrostatic

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27267 From: dave santos Date: 7/9/2019
Subject: Calcium Looping emerging as Mass Storage Contender, with possible AW

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27268 From: dave santos Date: 7/9/2019
Subject: Advancing Science of Wake and Wind Field Wing Interactions

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27269 From: dave santos Date: 7/9/2019
Subject: Re: Advancing Science of Wake and Wind Field Wing Interactions

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27270 From: dave santos Date: 7/9/2019
Subject: TumbleWing Looping Foil Video Located

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27271 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: TumbleWing Looping Foil Video Located

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27272 From: dougselsam Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: Calcium Looping emerging as Mass Storage Contender, with possibl

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27273 From: dougselsam Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: TumbleWing Looping Foil Video Located

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27274 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Magnus Effects on Torque-Tranmission AWES

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27275 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: Calcium Looping emerging as Mass Storage Contender, with possibl

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27276 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: TumbleWing Looping Foil Video Located

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27277 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: MLK- Multi Line Kite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27278 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: Calcium Looping emerging as Mass Storage Contender, with possibl

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27279 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Power Kiting Underground

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27280 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: MLK Configurations

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27281 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: TumbleWing Looping Foil Video Located

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27282 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: TumbleWing Looping Foil Video Located

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27283 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: TumbleWing Looping Foil Video Located

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27284 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Kites vs Drones War (Palestinian Occupation)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27285 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: TumbleWing Looping Foil Video Located [1 Attachment]

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27286 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: Kites vs Drones War (Palestinian Occupation)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27287 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: TumbleWing Looping Foil Video Located

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27288 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27289 From: dougselsam Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: Power Kiting Underground

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27290 From: dougselsam Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: TumbleWing Looping Foil Video Located

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27291 From: dougselsam Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: TumbleWing Looping Foil Video Located

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27292 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: Power Kiting Underground

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27293 From: dougselsam Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27244 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/8/2019
Subject: Re: AWES farm in bumper car mode
YoYo or pumping phase for electricity generation:  
Flying vertically down may occur by direct negative lift (dive down). 
Tether draw out may be a choice during such diving.   
Then upon direct use of climbing, again tether draw out may occur.

===================
Some niche practical works for direct negative-lift dives: 
= smashing the wing into some ground object
= planting saplings
= testing wing structures
= entertainment
= fishing
= give speed to object to be off-loaded downwards
= move breaking ball or hammer
= ...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27245 From: dave santos Date: 7/8/2019
Subject: Planting Trees with Kite Power (review and update)
We have long explored the potential for power kites to do direct work that otherwise might require non-renewable energy. Tree-planting is a particularly nice idea, as trees compound the anti-CO2 effect.

There is a lot of new buzz about the idea of a global-scale tree planting program. Once again, kites are possibly ideal to excavate holes or trenches, move topsoil and nursery trees, and provide water until the new trees are established. No better alternative exists, since all large-scale industrial machinery is fossil-fuel based, and planting billions of trees by hand or small clean-energy machines is just not productive enough.

KiteLab Ilwaco's first tri-tether experiment in 2008 had a log at its center, as a dummy load. It promptly scraped a rather large hole in the beach with just a small stunt-kite looping under a pilot-lifter. Other KiteLab experiments worked out pick-and-place mass-lifting with power-kites. Fundamental means of planting trees by kite are proven, and could be soon applied on a vast scale.

Sample of current global tree planting news-
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27246 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/8/2019
Subject: International Organization For Dew Utilization

International Organization For Dew Utilization

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Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27247 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/8/2019
Subject: Parked nonflying kite wings working as dew water harvesters?

Wings waiting for other AWES operations might be used as dew-water harvesters.


https://www.desertcultivation. org/files/Dokument/materialst. pdf 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27248 From: dave santos Date: 7/8/2019
Subject: Re: International Organization For Dew Utilization
Dew is the primary water supply in many places at certain places and seasons of dry clear conditions with surface calm. Those who have camped in heavy dew know how wet it can be, so open-air camping is favored under a tree or roof. The roof system is probably best. Care should be taken not to rob sensitive local ecosystems of dew.

A dew connection with kites is tenuous, possibly negative, since kites may actually reduce dew IF there is even enough wind. Since low wind favors dew, perhaps wind screens would create a dew-rich wind-shadow. What does dew really tell us?

Air-HES cloud harvesting comes to mind. Perhaps dew teaches the best way to deliver water as a predawn event that gives plants and animals a better watering than the same moisture delivered any other time. Another topic dew inspires is misting a hot landscape during peak heat to cool it off, by means of kites. This could be a lifesaving method for populations suffering heat-waves.

The idea of dew and kites suggests there may be other missed geologic-meteorologic processes. Perhaps kite power could restore depleted aquifers by bringing in water and injecting it under pressure. Springs that had been dried up would flow again, cloudy at first, but soon running clear. Polluted groundwater could be pumped up, filtered, and reinjected by kite power.

Let no one doubt persistent dreaming hits on wonderful concepts that jaded cynicism must despair of, like pure Kite Dew.


 

International Organization For Dew Utilization

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27249 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/8/2019
Subject: Re: Parked nonflying kite wings working as dew water harvesters?
Note about dew vs fog  harvesting, as I read the matter:  
In dew-harvesting parked wings: use hydrophilic foils. 
For fog fence water harvesting: use mesh of hydrophobic fibers to promote dripping. 


But consider in one's wings' designs: 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27250 From: dave santos Date: 7/8/2019
Subject: More Power Kite Hydrology and Meteorology Ideas
Power to save the world? There is more to AWE than just serving electrical markets. Branching from Dew Topic-

"What does dew really tell us?

Air-HES cloud harvesting comes to mind. Perhaps dew teaches the best way to deliver cloud water as a predawn event that gives plants and animals a better watering than the same moisture delivered any other time. Another topic dew inspires is misting a hot landscape during peak heat to cool it off, by means of kites. This could be a lifesaving method for populations suffering heat-waves.

The idea of dew and kites suggests there may be other missed geologic-meteorologic processes. Perhaps kite power could restore depleted aquifers by bringing in water and injecting it under pressure. Springs that had been dried up would flow again, cloudy at first, but soon running clear. Polluted groundwater could be pumped up, filtered, and reinjected by kite power.

Let no one doubt persistent dreaming hits on wonderful concepts that jaded cynicism must despair of, like pure Kite Dew."
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27251 From: dave santos Date: 7/8/2019
Subject: Re: Toy Wind Turbines that beat Betz (review)


To make clear how Physical Laws like Betz are not absolute, and can be "beaten", Wikipedia serves-

"a law is limited in applicability to circumstances resembling those already observed, and may be found false when extrapolated. Ohm's law only applies to linear networks, Newton's law of universal gravitation only applies in weak gravitational fields, the early laws of aerodynamics such as Bernoulli's principle do not apply in case of compressible flow such as occurs in transonic and supersonic flight, Hooke's law only applies to strain below the elastic limit, Boyle's law applies with perfect accuracy only to the ideal gas, etc. These laws remain useful, but only under the conditions where they apply...Like theories and hypotheses, laws make predictions (specifically, they predict that new observations will conform to the law), and can be falsified if they are found in contradiction with new data.
Some laws are only approximations of other more general laws, and are good approximations with a restricted domain of applicability. For example, Newtonian dynamics (which is based on Galilean transformations) is the low-speed limit of special relativity (since the Galilean transformation is the low-speed approximation to the Lorentz transformation). Similarly, the Newtonian gravitation law is a low-mass approximation of general relativity, and Coulomb's law is an approximation to Quantum Electrodynamics at large distances (compared to the range of weak interactions). In such cases it is common to use the simpler, approximate versions of the laws, instead of the more accurate general laws... Just because laws have never been observed to be violated does not preclude testing them at increased accuracy or in new kinds of conditions to confirm whether they continue to hold, or whether they break, and what can be discovered in the process. It is always possible for laws to be invalidated or proven to have limitations, by repeatable experimental evidence, should any be observed. Well-established laws have indeed been invalidated in some special cases, but the new formulations created to explain the discrepancies generalize upon, rather than overthrow, the originals. That is, the invalidated laws have been found to be only close approximations, to which other terms or factors must be added to cover previously unaccounted-for conditions, e.g. very large or very small scales of time or space, enormous speeds or masses, etc. Thus, rather than unchanging knowledge, physical laws are better viewed as a series of improving and more precise generalizations."


Scientific law
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27252 From: dave santos Date: 7/8/2019
Subject: Aerospace neglects Betz Limit
Its not just me who somehow "invalidated" Betz as useless to aerospace engineering, including AWE R&D. I checked.

Betz is not even listed in the Wikipedia aerospace topic glossary. Its not just that Betz was a Nazi and does even deserve priority. Its just not useful for any real aerospace engineering process. The Vestas engineers who are number one in wind power did not need it. Compare Betz food fights in small wind circles with the triumphs of maximizing power-to-weight for aerospace's inherent obsession with flight. AWE is Aviation; Betz is not.



Nor does Betz merit mentioned in WP Aerodynamics article-



Betz remains a vintage approximation hardly worth patching as such. Modern aerospace physics has moved forward during the last century. Only the most fundamental laws need apply, and the rest is left to specific cases and facts.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27253 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/8/2019
Subject: Re: Aerospace neglects Betz Limit
One aerospace cousin to Betz is the reversed situation of 
propeller efficiency.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27254 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/8/2019
Subject: Re: Aerospace neglects Betz Limit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blade_element_momentum_theory#Post-rotor

clip:
"This article emphasizes application of BEM to ground-based wind turbines, but the principles apply as well to propellers. Whereas the streamtube area is reduced by a propeller, it is expanded by a wind turbine. "
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27255 From: dougselsam Date: 7/9/2019
Subject: Re: International Organization For Dew Utilization
Meeting next week.  Location: "The Dew Drop Inn"   Be there or be square!


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <joefaust333@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27256 From: dougselsam Date: 7/9/2019
Subject: Re: Aerospace neglects Betz Limit
Professor Crackpot bravely holds the perimeter, in this exciting episode of "The War on Facts"...


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27257 From: dave santos Date: 7/9/2019
Subject: Re: Aerospace neglects Betz Limit
Thanks Joe. Froude's 1878 BEM Theory is a key milestone in Rankine's 1865 Ideal Actuator Disc Theory, putting Betz already in an archaic analytic context.

Doug once again adds his "crackpot" touch, rather than offer factual insight (his "War on Facts").



 

Professor Crackpot bravely holds the perimeter, in this exciting episode of "The War on Facts"...



---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27258 From: dougselsam Date: 7/9/2019
Subject: Re: Aerospace neglects Betz Limit
The factual input is I'm once again looking at some internet crackpot wasting his time trying to use Wikipedia to, in some way, seemingly disprove the most widely accepted fact in wind energy - the same simple fact that has always mysteriously attracted crackpots.  If I were fishing in the ocean of wind energy and wanted to catch a fish known as a (yellow-bellied?) "Professor Crackpot", I would use the betz coefficient as a lure.  Proven 100% effective.


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

Professor Crackpot bravely holds the perimeter, in this exciting episode of "The War on Facts"...



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Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27259 From: dave santos Date: 7/9/2019
Subject: Re: Aerospace neglects Betz Limit
Doug, "Betz" topic did lure you here. Every angler recalls the fish that will strike time after time at the same lure.

The "most accepted fact" in wind energy is not Betz, because its aerospace-driven. Basic Conservation of Energy and Scaling Laws would all come first. Betz is a footnote.



 

The factual input is I'm once again looking at some internet crackpot wasting his time trying to use Wikipedia to, in some way, seemingly disprove the most widely accepted fact in wind energy - the same simple fact that has always mysteriously attracted crackpots.  If I were fishing in the ocean of wind energy and wanted to catch a fish known as a (yellow-bellied?) "Professor Crackpot", I would use the betz coefficient as a lure.  Proven 100% effective.



---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

Professor Crackpot bravely holds the perimeter, in this exciting episode of "The War on Facts"...



---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27260 From: dougselsam Date: 7/9/2019
Subject: Re: Aerospace neglects Betz Limit
Do you suffer from moderate-to-severe fact-allergies?
Ask your doctor if Nonsensa or NoBetza might be right for you!


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

The factual input is I'm once again looking at some internet crackpot wasting his time trying to use Wikipedia to, in some way, seemingly disprove the most widely accepted fact in wind energy - the same simple fact that has always mysteriously attracted crackpots.  If I were fishing in the ocean of wind energy and wanted to catch a fish known as a (yellow-bellied?) "Professor Crackpot", I would use the betz coefficient as a lure.  Proven 100% effective.



---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

Professor Crackpot bravely holds the perimeter, in this exciting episode of "The War on Facts"...



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Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27261 From: dave santos Date: 7/9/2019
Subject: Re: Aerospace neglects Betz Limit
What is not nonsense here is that Aerospace AWE has scant need for Betz-

"swept-area-normalized power coefficient, which is commonly used for conventional wind turbines, is not practically important"

A new perspective on the aerodynamic performance and power limit of crosswind kite systems

Article in Journal of Wind Engineering and Industrial Aerodynamics 190:190-199



 · July 2019





 

Do you suffer from moderate-to-severe fact-allergies?
Ask your doctor if Nonsensa or NoBetza might be right for you!


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

The factual input is I'm once again looking at some internet crackpot wasting his time trying to use Wikipedia to, in some way, seemingly disprove the most widely accepted fact in wind energy - the same simple fact that has always mysteriously attracted crackpots.  If I were fishing in the ocean of wind energy and wanted to catch a fish known as a (yellow-bellied?) "Professor Crackpot", I would use the betz coefficient as a lure.  Proven 100% effective.



---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

Professor Crackpot bravely holds the perimeter, in this exciting episode of "The War on Facts"...



---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27262 From: dave santos Date: 7/9/2019
Subject: AWE Session at US Control Conference (Late Notice)
Copied from RolandS on New Forum-


There is a session Control of Airborne Wind Energy Systems at the 2019 American Control Conference (ACC) 1, July 10–12 in Philadelphia, USA, with 6 presentations:

Session ThA07
Chair: Vermillion, Christopher (North Carolina State University)
Co-chair: Paiva, Luis Tiago (University of Porto)

Time Location Title Authors
09:30-09:50 ThA07.1 An Iterative Learning Approach for Online Flight Path Optimization for Tethered Energy Systems Undergoing Cyclic Spooling Motion Mitchell Cobb, Kira Barton, Hosam K. Fathy, Christopher Vermillion
09:50-10:10 ThA07.2 A Path-Following Guidance Method for Airborne Wind Energy Systems with Large Domain of Attraction Gonçalo B. Silva, Luis Tiago Paiva, Fernando A. C. C. Fontes
10:10-10:30 ThA07.3 Control of Vertical Take Off, Dynamic Flight and Landing of Hybrid Drones for Airborne Wind Energy Systems Davide Todeschini, Lorenzo Fagiano, Claudio Micheli, Aldo Cattano
10:30-10:50 ThA07.4 Flight Test Verification of a Rigid Wing Airborne Wind Energy System Paul Williams, Sören Sieberling, Richard Ruiterkamp
10:50-11:10 ThA07.5 Locally Power-Optimal Nonlinear Model Predictive Control for Fixed-Wing Airborne Wind Energy Thomas Stastny, Eva Ahbe, Manuel Dangel, Roland Siegwart
11:10-11:30 ThA07.6 On Wind Speed Sensor Configurations and Altitude Control in Airborne Wind Energy Systems Laurel Dunn, Christopher Vermillion, Fotini Katopodes Chow, Scott Moura
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27263 From: dave santos Date: 7/9/2019
Subject: Frédéric Bourgault, PhD Principal AWE Scientist at New Leaf Manage
New Leaf is the latest AWE dark-horse, hailing from Vancouver BC CA AWE community. As an all-around aerospace and AWE vet, Frédéric seems to be New Leaf's key-man, with a highly relevant background with Gin PG, Joby Aviation, etc...



The old Vancouver AWE venture, Crosswind Power Systems, seems to be no more; New Leaf is the new leaf. Chief Planes is within paddling distance, and KiteMill, Boeing, and many others are just down the road. The area continues to deepen as major AWE R&D hub.

JoeF's archival trail-



The latest paper-
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27264 From: dave santos Date: 7/9/2019
Subject: "Bringing flight physics into the Quantum Era" Airbus Challenge
Like every other physical science, Aerodynamics is transitioning to QM for engineering and ontological progress. This is not a new topic here, because of striking quantum analogies kites embody. A classic kite in fact computes its own flight solutions by QM analog dynamics that can be directly compared in practical efficiency with conventional flight automation. Airbus is here expanding quantum aerodynamics deep into its specific engineering challenges as a hot new toolkit.







Aerodynamic Impedance as QM Basis (on Kindle)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27265 From: dave santos Date: 7/9/2019
Subject: Latest Spider "Ballooning" (power kiting) Science- Electrostatics
We have enjoyed learning details about spider ballooning, which in some cases involves amazingly similar silk structure to MLKs. The latest spider flight research finding is that electric fields are helpful and can even initiate flight without surface wind. We suppose the same electrostatic assistance applies to thistle-down and similar floating seeds, explaining how they seem to fly indefinitely when they should otherwise settle.

Unfortunately, electrostatic forces don't scale up well to our kites, but there could be operational use of electrostatic charge to promote soft-kite inflation from the packed state or better passive deflation back to a compact state. Parachuting might become even safer by electrostatic charge promoting chute opening from a tight pack. Some fatalities have been caused by a packed chute staying wadded up, perhaps with "static cling" as a contributing factor.



Follow links to past recent advances in Spider Flight Science we followed.

Here's equivocal physics discussion of inflating a balloon by electric charge. Its a real but marginal principle-
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27266 From: dave santos Date: 7/9/2019
Subject: Re: Latest Spider "Ballooning" (power kiting) Science- Electrostatic

Nice science demos of electrostatic flight-

Electrostatic floating Rings -toy physics = Homemade Science with Bruce Yeany




how to make plastic float in the air a science with bobert video short





 

We have enjoyed learning details about spider ballooning, which in some cases involves amazingly similar silk structure to MLKs. The latest spider flight research finding is that electric fields are helpful and can even initiate flight without surface wind. We suppose the same electrostatic assistance applies to thistle-down and similar floating seeds, explaining how they seem to fly indefinitely when they should otherwise settle.

Unfortunately, electrostatic forces don't scale up well to our kites, but there could be operational use of electrostatic charge to promote soft-kite inflation from the packed state or better passive deflation back to a compact state. Parachuting might become even safer by electrostatic charge promoting chute opening from a tight pack. Some fatalities have been caused by a packed chute staying wadded up, perhaps with "static cling" as a contributing factor.



Follow links to past recent advances in Spider Flight Science we followed.

Here's equivocal physics discussion of inflating a balloon by electric charge. Its a real but marginal principle-
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27267 From: dave santos Date: 7/9/2019
Subject: Calcium Looping emerging as Mass Storage Contender, with possible AW
There is a surge in bulk energy storage research as the missing link to the 100% renewable energy future. An energy trinity of local storage, solar, and wind seems to be the new Grail. Process engineers are no longer just concerned with filling daily intermittencies, but pondering seasonal storage and even global shipping of new "looping" storage mediums, like Quicklime, a Calcium Looping phase. 

Calcium Looping is a leading contender technology for complex synergies between energy markets, CO2 capture, concrete production, and possible lowest cost, and least environmental impact. Its not all smooth sailing, but AWE might be a particularly good fit, including for direct intensive materials-handling of Calcium chemical phases that conventional wind power is unsuited for. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27268 From: dave santos Date: 7/9/2019
Subject: Advancing Science of Wake and Wind Field Wing Interactions
Wake and wind field turbulence is a problem for bad aerodynamic design, but an opportunity for advanced design. Only to the degree we know every exotic trick of biological physics can be sure of making our own flying marvels. Any applicable principle in third-party science can work for AWE. Its like mining for gold, you have to dig.

We follow Zhang Lab closely for the latest benchtop science emulating biological flying and swimming dynamics, and find insight into future kite practice. Zhang's latest paper builds on the lab's years of unique explorations, like slowly building a cathedral of knowledge.


This paper reviews the same sort of complex biological flight dynamics as Zhang, but studied from Nature herself.


Single and multi- kite systems in many cases already exhibit the features identified in this literature. This gives us language and validation for what we see. We are also ready to pounce on any new idea we see, to cobble our own versions and see where they lead. Dig that gold.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27269 From: dave santos Date: 7/9/2019
Subject: Re: Advancing Science of Wake and Wind Field Wing Interactions
Aerodynamics is in peak revolution.

Here is a gem of a paper further validating empirical kite science in embracing "local drag" forces and undulatory (loco)motion. A summation of our soft-rigid wing debate, on the special wonders of the soft side newly revealed-


On the diverse roles of fluid dynamic drag in animal swimming and flying

Published:14 February 2018https://doi.org/10.1098/rsif.2017.0715

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsif.2017.0715



 

Wake and wind field turbulence is a problem for bad aerodynamic design, but an opportunity for advanced design. Only to the degree we know every exotic trick of biological physics can be sure of making our own flying marvels. Any applicable principle in third-party science can work for AWE. Its like mining for gold, you have to dig.

We follow Zhang Lab closely for the latest benchtop science emulating biological flying and swimming dynamics, and find insight into future kite practice. Zhang's latest paper builds on the lab's years of unique explorations, like slowly building a cathedral of knowledge.


This paper reviews the same sort of complex biological flight dynamics as Zhang, but studied from Nature herself.


Single and multi- kite systems in many cases already exhibit the features identified in this literature. This gives us language and validation for what we see. We are also ready to pounce on any new idea we see, to cobble our own versions and see where they lead. Dig that gold.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27270 From: dave santos Date: 7/9/2019
Subject: TumbleWing Looping Foil Video Located
Patience pays, here is the proof of concept requested.

Question- Is this not the same as a "CycloKite"? Quoted Text on YouTube page-


Published on Jul 8, 2016
Subscribe 29

Joe Faust's tumbling wing concept tested in  Austin, Texas. Easily looped in 12-15 mph winds on a hot summer day, exhibiting strong pulses of power..
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27271 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: TumbleWing Looping Foil Video Located
Looking back at PeterS's Cyclo-Kite videos, noting they anticipate the TumbleWing by a few years. 

Hats-off to PeterS for outstanding prior art.



 

Patience pays, here is the proof of concept requested.

Question- Is this not the same as a "CycloKite"? Quoted Text on YouTube page-


Published on Jul 8, 2016
Subscribe 29

Joe Faust's tumbling wing concept tested in  Austin, Texas. Easily looped in 12-15 mph winds on a hot summer day, exhibiting strong pulses of power..
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27272 From: dougselsam Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: Calcium Looping emerging as Mass Storage Contender, with possibl
I note something like 10 posts by daveS this morning, mostly about anything and everything besides AWE.
Another daily daveS brain-dump, random half-understood fleeting thoughts, encompassing virtually every every conceivable field of science and engineering EXCEPT wind energy.
Yeah let's hold our breaths for the future energy economy based on trucking calcium around the country.
:0........


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27273 From: dougselsam Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: TumbleWing Looping Foil Video Located
I would question the terminology.
In hang-gliding, for example, there is quite a difference between a "tumble" and a "loop".
For one thing, they spin in opposite directions.
I interpret a "tumblewing" as spinning around its own span axis, with the radius of spin on the same scale as the wing chord.  Like the triangular tumbling Sharp rotor for example.
What this extremely short video shows is not just a "wing", but a glider with a tail, flying in loops.
A complete aircraft.
I don't seen any tumbling.
I see an aircraft flying loops.
Side note: Why does a typical daveS video last only 4 seconds?
Do his sessions only last 4 seconds?
Is he trying to preserve valuable bandwidth for cat videos?
Seems like it would be more considerate of the viewer to allow enough time for the eye to more easily take in what is being shown, without having to hold your finger on that little circular-arrow "play-it-again" icon clicking over and over to simulate a longer video.
What I see is not much more than an unbalanced, low-aspect-ratio, sideways, darrieus turbine with no generator, requiring an elevating structure (tower), but in this case, actually two (2) towers..
Like the Makani "just the tips" airplane turns one tip into two tips (~doubling tip-losses), this "AWE" video shows a device that, rather than dispensing with a tower, requires two (2) towers.
Is this really the best you've got after 12 years of "AWE research"?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27274 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Magnus Effects on Torque-Tranmission AWES
Torque-Tranmission AWES architectures inherently develop Magnus forces along their rotating drive axes. This may be a strong failure mode in turbulence, bending the axes every which way. Veering wind will also create interference, tending to drive down the WECS from one side, and lift in the other.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27275 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: Calcium Looping emerging as Mass Storage Contender, with possibl
Doug overlooks that Calcium Looping was closely related to direct work capability of Power Kites, by the high materials-handling dependence.



 

I note something like 10 posts by daveS this morning, mostly about anything and everything besides AWE.
Another daily daveS brain-dump, random half-understood fleeting thoughts, encompassing virtually every every conceivable field of science and engineering EXCEPT wind energy.
Yeah let's hold our breaths for the future energy economy based on trucking calcium around the country.
:0........


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27276 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: TumbleWing Looping Foil Video Located
PeterS deserves naming priority here- "Cyclo-Kite". Too late to recall "Tumblewing", its the JoeF/kPower Cyclo-Kite variant.

kPower videos are not produced to please Doug. This was just one of hundreds of distinct KiteLab/kPower experiments, and all the seconds add up. Let others with less to test leave the camera running while we moved on to the next quick-and-dirty experiment.



 

I would question the terminology.
In hang-gliding, for example, there is quite a difference between a "tumble" and a "loop".
For one thing, they spin in opposite directions.
I interpret a "tumblewing" as spinning around its own span axis, with the radius of spin on the same scale as the wing chord.  Like the triangular tumbling Sharp rotor for example.
What this extremely short video shows is not just a "wing", but a glider with a tail, flying in loops.
A complete aircraft.
I don't seen any tumbling.
I see an aircraft flying loops.
Side note: Why does a typical daveS video last only 4 seconds?
Do his sessions only last 4 seconds?
Is he trying to preserve valuable bandwidth for cat videos?
Seems like it would be more considerate of the viewer to allow enough time for the eye to more easily take in what is being shown, without having to hold your finger on that little circular-arrow "play-it-again" icon clicking over and over to simulate a longer video.
What I see is not much more than an unbalanced, low-aspect-ratio, sideways, darrieus turbine with no generator, requiring an elevating structure (tower), but in this case, actually two (2) towers..
Like the Makani "just the tips" airplane turns one tip into two tips (~doubling tip-losses), this "AWE" video shows a device that, rather than dispensing with a tower, requires two (2) towers.
Is this really the best you've got after 12 years of "AWE research"?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27277 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: MLK- Multi Line Kite
Extension of JoeF's SLK (Single Line Kite) acronym.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27278 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: Calcium Looping emerging as Mass Storage Contender, with possibl
Still missing the definitive Calcium Looping energy storage overview link. Germany is pioneering this concept as part of "Coal Exit", but US Calcium Looping has mostly been CO2 capture oriented, mixed into fossil plant cycles.

This is a far more in-depth Calcium Looping text, with considerable emphasis on Power Production/Storage, not just Carbon Capture-

Calcium and Chemical Looping Technology for Power Generation and Carbon Dioxide (CO2) Capture - 1st Edition






 

There is a surge in bulk energy storage research as the missing link to the 100% renewable energy future. An energy trinity of local storage, solar, and wind seems to be the new Grail. Process engineers are no longer just concerned with filling daily intermittencies, but pondering seasonal storage and even global shipping of new "looping" storage mediums, like Quicklime, a Calcium Looping phase. 

Calcium Looping is a leading contender technology for complex synergies between energy markets, CO2 capture, concrete production, and possible lowest cost, and least environmental impact. Its not all smooth sailing, but AWE might be a particularly good fit, including for direct intensive materials-handling of Calcium chemical phases that conventional wind power is unsuited for. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27279 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Power Kiting Underground
We have long known that kite-like ground-anchors are the most efficient by area. The next inventive leap in this concept space is to envision fully steerable soil kites. Imagine a Calcium Looping Plant with large beds of calcium phases in need of mechanical operations- moving around en-masse, de-sintering, thermal stirring, and so on.

Flying underground is more problematic in natural geological formations, for the damage it might do. That's the motivation to invoke Open-AWE_IP-Cloud claim here, for possible blocking efforts. Eco-remediation by soil-kiting is a large subject, like soil kites flying profitably through landfills to recover specific materials otherwise uneconomic to mine.

L/D will be low, due to the viscous Low-Re regime. Practice may involve drilling a pilot hole to insert a soil kite and then reeling it in on a looping or zig-zag course. The tether may use a sawing motion, like rock cable saws, to operate. Such power loop tethers could send power down to the soil kite for its many possible operations.

Thanking Doug for challenging Old Forum soil anchor discussion (on New Forum Magenn topic); indicating need for further inventive attention. This is a big conceptual leap. Its as if the Plow had grown a tether and become a moving soil kite.

A tungsten or ceramic "lava kite" and tether could explore and sample magma chambers via live volcano access, like no other technology could hope.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27280 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: MLK Configurations

Multi-Line Kite (MLK) System Configurations


= Single-anchor holding terminals of multiple tethers in a kite system

= Multiple anchors holding terminals of many tethers

= Single-line branching single-line branch or multiple-line branch

= Two-line kite systems

= Three-line kite systems

= Four-line kite systems

= Five-line kite systems

= n-line kite systems

= FFAWE of many tethers, e.g., paragliders, gliding parachutes, some hang gliders having more than one tether to the main wing from the lower pilot-body wing, ...

= ... (other configurations may be mentioned in this topic thread)


Wing bridles:

Depending on the analyst and focus, multiple-line wing bridles may be seen as MLKs constructs.  Some analysts will keep some multiple-line bridles apart from MLK qualification. 


Textile wing covers:

Depending on the analyst and focus, textiles in kited-wing covers may be seen as made of many lines.  Some analysts will keep textiles apart from MLK qualification. 


Network kite systems:

Depending on the analyst and focus, network kite systems may be seen as MLKs.


Secondary lines in a kite system: 

A kite system may have secondary and tertiary lines functioning to carry out specialized duties; such lines bring up the count of lines in an AWES. Some analysts will not let such secondary and tertiary lines qualify the system as an MLK; other analysts might let the MLK apply over systems having secondary and tertiary lines. E.g., stay lines, conspicuity subassembly lines, marionette lines, noisy-making lines, tailing lines, electrical lines aloft in system, trip or trigger lines, tell-tale lines, communication lines, drop lines, material-handling lines, drag lines, safety lines,  ...




tags: 

MLKs, multiple-line, multiple lines, 

Contrast with single-line kite systems  (SLK, SLKs)

http://www.energykitesystems.net/0/KITESA/FAQelectric/glossary/m.html
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27281 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: TumbleWing Looping Foil Video Located
Doug, agreed about tumbling and looping in hang gliding and some other aviation pursuits.   The use of tumbling comes from a wide popular use over the elemental looping free glider being called a tumbling wing, e.g, a use in toy aviation:  

A soft use of "tumbling" regards going off vetical (either way: front, back, sideways). E.g., in gymnastics tumbling includes such as
Basic tumbling moves
  • Punch fronts.
  • Back handsprings.
  • Roundoffs.
  • Roundoff back handsprings.
  • Layouts.
  • Front fulls.
  • Double fulls.
  • Standing fulls.

So, in a soft way, perhaps tumbling might superset looping.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27282 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: TumbleWing Looping Foil Video Located
Attachments :

    DaveS,

    Thanks for checking and for showing the video.

    That 2016 video shows a variation of my Cyclo-Kite. My Cyclo-Kite videos were posted in 2012. As far as I know, JoeF invited me to join this group after seeing my Cyclo-Kite.

    Calling the Cyclo-Kite a “Tumblewing” is misleading for 2 reasons: 1) That implies that the Cyclo-Kite was invented by JoeF, which it was not, and 2) there is a popular teaching-toy called a Tumblewing, which is a variation of a my auto-rotating, 2 sided, free-flight versions of a Donaldson rotor kite, but made from a single sheet of thin paper so as to be as light as possible. Kids fly them using a large piece of cardboard to create an updraft. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwtj04FAEuY 

    Tumblewings have a glide ratio of 1 to 1, whereas free-flight Donaldson rotors and my patented, free-flight Donaldson rotor with dihedral (patented 40 years ago) have a glide ratio of 2 to 1, as does the 3-sided Sharp Rotor. In other words, I was flying more efficient “Tumblewings” during the 1970’s, but I did not call them that.

    I have communicated with the inventor of the single-sheet-of-light-paper Tumblewing. He did a good job. He actually prefers to use very light foam material instead of telephone book paper.

    I made very light, double-surface versions (Donaldson rotors) during the 1970’s out of Xmas wrapping paper that glided very slowly. But I did not fly them using an updraft using a piece of cardboard. That type of air-surfing was originated by the son of Paul McCready for a very light, and larger, foam flying-wing glider. He was able to create an updraft using only his hand or his body. But they don’t fly as slowly as a Tumblewing, so they are harder for children to fly. Kids now also air-surf some flying-wing gliders that are made out of very light paper. There are videos on YouTube.

    PeterS

     

     

     

     

    From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
    Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2019 8:57 PM
    To: Yahoogroups <airbornewindenergy@yahoogroups.com

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27283 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
    Subject: Re: TumbleWing Looping Foil Video Located
    Attachments :
      PeterS, I designed the Tumblewing not knowing about your Cyclo-Kite. Joe is not the kind of person that does not give credit. The dynamics are fairly simple to discover. You may well be the first inventor either, and if you are not, deserve to be falsely suspected of copying, rather than supposed as an independent inventor.



       

      DaveS,

      Thanks for checking and for showing the video.

      That 2016 video shows a variation of my Cyclo-Kite. My Cyclo-Kite videos were posted in 2012. As far as I know, JoeF invited me to join this group after seeing my Cyclo-Kite.

      Calling the Cyclo-Kite a “Tumblewing” is misleading for 2 reasons: 1) That implies that the Cyclo-Kite was invented by JoeF, which it was not, and 2) there is a popular teaching-toy called a Tumblewing, which is a variation of a my auto-rotating, 2 sided, free-flight versions of a Donaldson rotor kite, but made from a single sheet of thin paper so as to be as light as possible. Kids fly them using a large piece of cardboard to create an updraft. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwtj04FAEuY 

      Tumblewings have a glide ratio of 1 to 1, whereas free-flight Donaldson rotors and my patented, free-flight Donaldson rotor with dihedral (patented 40 years ago) have a glide ratio of 2 to 1, as does the 3-sided Sharp Rotor. In other words, I was flying more efficient “Tumblewings” during the 1970’s, but I did not call them that.

      I have communicated with the inventor of the single-sheet-of-light-paper Tumblewing. He did a good job. He actually prefers to use very light foam material instead of telephone book paper.

      I made very light, double-surface versions (Donaldson rotors) during the 1970’s out of Xmas wrapping paper that glided very slowly. But I did not fly them using an updraft using a piece of cardboard. That type of air-surfing was originated by the son of Paul McCready for a very light, and larger, foam flying-wing glider. He was able to create an updraft using only his hand or his body. But they don’t fly as slowly as a Tumblewing, so they are harder for children to fly. Kids now also air-surf some flying-wing gliders that are made out of very light paper. There are videos on YouTube.

      PeterS

       

       

       

       

      From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2019 8:57 PM
      To: Yahoogroups <airbornewindenergy@yahoogroups.com

      		  @@attachment@@
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27284 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
      Subject: Kites vs Drones War (Palestinian Occupation)
      A similar architectural contest is at work in AWE R&D. Very dramatic kite history in both cases. 

      AJ sure knows how to make a great kite video, wow-
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27285 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/10/2019
      Subject: Re: TumbleWing Looping Foil Video Located [1 Attachment]
      Attachments :

        DaveS,

        “Joe Faust's tumbling wing concept tested in  Austin, Texas.” – DaveS, referring to the “Tumblewing”.video.

        “I designed the Tumblewing not knowing about your Cyclo-Kite” – DaveS

        You might want to get your story straight.

        In any case, please don’t refer to the Cyclo-Kite as a “Tumblewing”. Please respect my priority.

        PeterS

         

        From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2019 11:32 AM
        To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [AWES] TumbleWing Looping Foil Video Located [1 Attachment]

         

         

        [Attachment(s) from dave santos included below]

        PeterS, I designed the Tumblewing not knowing about your Cyclo-Kite. Joe is not the kind of person that does not give credit. The dynamics are fairly simple to discover. You may well be the first inventor either, and if you are not, deserve to be falsely suspected of copying, rather than supposed as an independent inventor.

         

        On ‎Wednesday‎, ‎July‎ ‎10‎, ‎2019‎ ‎01‎:‎26‎:‎59‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27286 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
        Subject: Re: Kites vs Drones War (Palestinian Occupation)

        Video of a Palestinian Kite capturing an Israeli Drone and reeling it back to base. The more advanced kites carry fishnets invisible to drones. Cutting kiteline backfires as a drone tactic, since cutting the line is the fire-kite method-of-operation. Fire suppression aimed at the Molotov package will likely be the best counter, mid-air or aerial fire suppression on impact. Kites will likely develop spread multi-lines. Its a very intensive scary futuristic R&D of two classes of revolutionary aviation at war. kPower's equally pioneering kite-drone experiments are tame love-affairs by comparison-


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ei_KfVXYcZ8


         

        A similar architectural contest is at work in AWE R&D. Very dramatic kite history in both cases. 

        AJ sure knows how to make a great kite video, wow-
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27287 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
        Subject: Re: TumbleWing Looping Foil Video Located
        PeterS, expect no undue respect from those you habitually accuse of being ignorant liars without proper evidence. 

        The Cyclo-Kite is the current preferred generic name, and the kPower Tumblewing remains named as such. Anyone can name or define as they please, and we keep track of the dialects.

        At least you now concede the kPower TumbleWing is essentially a Cyclo-Kite, if not that a TumbleWing necessarily experiences DS forces in surface gradient.



         

        DaveS,

        “Joe Faust's tumbling wing concept tested in  Austin, Texas.” – DaveS, referring to the “Tumblewing”.video.

        “I designed the Tumblewing not knowing about your Cyclo-Kite” – DaveS

        You might want to get your story straight.

        In any case, please don’t refer to the Cyclo-Kite as a “Tumblewing”. Please respect my priority.

        PeterS

         

        From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2019 11:32 AM
        To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [AWES] TumbleWing Looping Foil Video Located [1 Attachment]

         

         

        [Attachment(s) from dave santos included below]

        PeterS, I designed the Tumblewing not knowing about your Cyclo-Kite. Joe is not the kind of person that does not give credit. The dynamics are fairly simple to discover. You may well be the first inventor either, and if you are not, deserve to be falsely suspected of copying, rather than supposed as an independent inventor.

         

        On ‎Wednesday‎, ‎July‎ ‎10‎, ‎2019‎ ‎01‎:‎26‎:‎59‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27288 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/10/2019
        Subject: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

        This start of topic is not intended to be comprehensive. Add to the first scratching as interested.  


        Early History Looping Unmanned Gliders 

        (tumbling-wing gliders) (or back-flipping or flipping wing gliders)

        and other rotary traverse-to-flow kited or glided wings


        1. Look to observations and commentaries over nature's seeds and leaves

        2. Look to commercial confetti makers in various cultures in 1800s

        3. Look to early patents over confetti

        4. Look to aviation's observations of incidents/accidents

        5. Examine all that Enrico Mangili knew about little wings that looped/tumbled. "inventor of confetti". 

        5. Joseph E Smith   Filing of patent:  1953-04-28 

        6. Butler Ames   Filing: 1908-04-27

        7. Application filed by James R Carnwath  1948-03-29

        8. ...
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27289 From: dougselsam Date: 7/10/2019
        Subject: Re: Power Kiting Underground
        Nothing is too absurd for these two bored (and boring) jokers... (yawn)

        ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27290 From: dougselsam Date: 7/10/2019
        Subject: Re: TumbleWing Looping Foil Video Located
        You are out of control.
        Stupid video - I clicked to ten points and never saw it fly.
        Try a strip of cardboard.
        More insistence on discussing anything and everything except anything meaningful for AWE.
        Professor Crackpot.
        One more beaten-to-death topic.
        When is it time to stop talking and DO something?


        ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <joefaust333@...
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27291 From: dougselsam Date: 7/10/2019
        Subject: Re: TumbleWing Looping Foil Video Located
        While I did not notice that Peter actually said that, it would be one of many times people have made similar points regarding daveS.  Racking 'em up, eh daveS?


        ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

        DaveS,

        “Joe Faust's tumbling wing concept tested in  Austin, Texas.” – DaveS, referring to the “Tumblewing”.video.

        “I designed the Tumblewing not knowing about your Cyclo-Kite” – DaveS

        You might want to get your story straight.

        In any case, please don’t refer to the Cyclo-Kite as a “Tumblewing”. Please respect my priority.

        PeterS

         

        From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2019 11:32 AM
        To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [AWES] TumbleWing Looping Foil Video Located [1 Attachment]

         

         

        [Attachment(s) from dave santos included below]

        PeterS, I designed the Tumblewing not knowing about your Cyclo-Kite. Joe is not the kind of person that does not give credit. The dynamics are fairly simple to discover. You may well be the first inventor either, and if you are not, deserve to be falsely suspected of copying, rather than supposed as an independent inventor.

         

        On ‎Wednesday‎, ‎July‎ ‎10‎, ‎2019‎ ‎01‎:‎26‎:‎59‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@... 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        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27292 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
        Subject: Re: Power Kiting Underground
        "All roads lead to the Super Turbine" is closer to "too absurd". Underground drilling happens to be the only long powerful drive shaft similarity case, but way too massive. "Not gonna fly", as they say.

        Active soil kites may also liquify surrounding soil by vibration, heating, and/or fluid injection. Its actually a neat ME idea. Underground velocity in solid rock could be little as a few cm an hour



         

        Nothing is too absurd for these two bored (and boring) jokers... (yawn)


        ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27293 From: dougselsam Date: 7/10/2019
        Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
        Yeah, make sure to fully explore every conceivable topic, except wind energy.


        ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <joefaust333@...