Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                           AWES10298to10347 Page 103 of 440.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10298 From: roderickjosephread Date: 10/9/2013
Subject: Re: A guide to the logic of giant kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10299 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/9/2013
Subject: Kite Power Solutions LTD aiming for Brazil?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10300 From: dave santos Date: 10/10/2013
Subject: Generator economy of scale //Re: [AWES] RE: A guide to the logic of

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10301 From: Harry Valentine Date: 10/10/2013
Subject: Re: Generator economy of scale //Re: [AWES] RE: A guide to the logi

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10302 From: Bob Stuart Date: 10/10/2013
Subject: Re: Generator economy of scale //Re: [AWES] RE: A guide to the logi

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10303 From: Harry Valentine Date: 10/10/2013
Subject: Re: Generator economy of scale //Re: [AWES] RE: A guide to the logi

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10304 From: dave santos Date: 10/10/2013
Subject: (no subject)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10305 From: dave santos Date: 10/10/2013
Subject: Re: Generator economy of scale //Re: [AWES] RE: A guide to the logi

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10306 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/10/2013
Subject: Modulating Kite Dutch-Roll Instability for Optimal Pumping Force

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10307 From: Baptiste Labat Date: 10/10/2013
Subject: Re: Generator economy of scale //Re: [AWES] RE: A guide to the logic

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10308 From: Bob Stuart Date: 10/10/2013
Subject: Re: Generator economy of scale //Re: [AWES] RE: A guide to the logi

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10309 From: Bob Stuart Date: 10/10/2013
Subject: Re: Generator economy of scale //Re: [AWES] RE: A guide to the logi

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10310 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/10/2013
Subject: Re: Dan Tracy is back at some traction items

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10311 From: dave santos Date: 10/10/2013
Subject: Re: Generator economy of scale //Re: [AWES] RE: A guide to the logi

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10312 From: dave santos Date: 10/11/2013
Subject: Giant Kite Logic (a manifesto)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10313 From: dave santos Date: 10/11/2013
Subject: Stratospheric Thin-Film Solar AWES

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10314 From: Bob Stuart Date: 10/11/2013
Subject: Re: Generator economy of scale //Re: [AWES] RE: A guide to the logi

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10315 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/11/2013
Subject: Crosswinding cable-constrained tactics

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10316 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/11/2013
Subject: Re: Crosswinding cable-constrained tactics

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10317 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/11/2013
Subject: Re: Crosswinding cable-constrained tactics

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10318 From: David Lang Date: 10/11/2013
Subject: Re: Crosswinding cable-constrained tactics

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10319 From: Gabor Dobos Date: 10/11/2013
Subject: Re: Generator economy of scale //Re: [AWES] RE: A guide to the logi

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10320 From: dave santos Date: 10/11/2013
Subject: kitesurfer engineer on wave power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10321 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/11/2013
Subject: Re: Generator economy of scale //Re: [AWES] RE: A guide to the logi

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10322 From: roderickjosephread Date: 10/12/2013
Subject: Re: Crosswinding cable-constrained tactics

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10323 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/12/2013
Subject: Re: Crosswinding cable-constrained tactics

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10324 From: dave santos Date: 10/12/2013
Subject: Mothra-tech Easy Giant Sewing Method

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10325 From: roderickjosephread Date: 10/12/2013
Subject: Re: Mothra-tech Easy Giant Sewing Method

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10326 From: dave santos Date: 10/12/2013
Subject: Re: Mothra-tech Easy Giant Sewing Method

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10327 From: dave santos Date: 10/12/2013
Subject: Hybrid Power Plants going mainstream (AWE Hybrids will follow)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10328 From: dave santos Date: 10/13/2013
Subject: Taking AWE Viral

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10329 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/13/2013
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Lta windpower

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10330 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/13/2013
Subject: Overview of AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10331 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/14/2013
Subject: Re: Overview of AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10332 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/14/2013
Subject: Suggestions for masters theses and projects

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10333 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/14/2013
Subject: Re: Overview of AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10334 From: Harry Valentine Date: 10/14/2013
Subject: Re: Suggestions for masters theses and projects

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10335 From: dave santos Date: 10/14/2013
Subject: "Kite Number"- the Ratio of Min Wing-Loading to Max Wing-Loading

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10336 From: snapscan_snapscan Date: 10/14/2013
Subject: Re: Overview of AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10337 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/14/2013
Subject: Re: Overview of AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10338 From: dave santos Date: 10/15/2013
Subject: Roy Mueller's Aerology Lab to join Kite Power Cooperative

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10339 From: dave santos Date: 10/15/2013
Subject: Ajazeera Coverage of AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10340 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/15/2013
Subject: Re: Ajazeera Coverage of AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10341 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/15/2013
Subject: Re: A guide to the logic of giant kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10342 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/16/2013
Subject: Kite Foilboarding is taking off

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10343 From: dave santos Date: 10/16/2013
Subject: A closer look at a great LAGI AWE submission

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10344 From: edoishi Date: 10/16/2013
Subject: Re: A closer look at a great LAGI AWE submission

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10345 From: dave santos Date: 10/16/2013
Subject: Toy LED Kite AWES by Ben Chapman

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10346 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/16/2013
Subject: Pocock page updated

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10347 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/16/2013
Subject: Re: A closer look at a great LAGI AWE submission



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10298 From: roderickjosephread Date: 10/9/2013
Subject: Re: A guide to the logic of giant kites
I have one concern about the article that definitely needs a group edit....
Bob S may have caught me spouting BS... not his initial intent (gedit?)
But I may have wrong information, where I wrote the wooly statement "Generators are more efficient when they are big."  
It's certainly the case with coal when building steam pressure for turbine generators...
But to what extent does it hold for generalised electrical generators? Or even for that matter differing pumps or devices which could be considered the output transducer of a rope pull?
Sorry this seems a bit basic a this stage and I thought we had it covered before now.
Is a bigger generator better?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10299 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/9/2013
Subject: Kite Power Solutions LTD aiming for Brazil?
 2013 news note  

UK start-up hopes its kite power will take off in Brazil

Green innovation news - by Louise Bateman
9th October 2013

=====================================================
???? 
They are planning ahead. Aiming at power for remote Brazil mines, Also offshore power. 

Our incomplete folder:
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10300 From: dave santos Date: 10/10/2013
Subject: Generator economy of scale //Re: [AWES] RE: A guide to the logic of
Roddy,

It has been true that the largest generators are the cheapest to operate; a textbook case of economy-of-scale. The trend of automated manufacturing is eroding this advantage, as it becomes increasingly practical to create a flood of smaller units with ever less labor (esp. for wind-wall-of-turbines). Heat dissipation is a key issue for flygens, which must be super lightweight, so smaller is better in this niche. A big fixed industrial generator is so massive that its a huge effective heatsink. Large units generally run cooler with greater thermal stability using this mass advantage. Lifetime cost and capital costs complicate the choice question. Its safe to say that generators at all scales find large markets.

Please include in your manifesto the CC cooperative idea that existing power plants, even at the largest scales, can be incrementally converted into kite-hybrids. kPower is actively proposing this AWE bootstrap concept to its utility partner, Austin Energy, to offset coal consumption driving .5 GW gens,

daveS
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10301 From: Harry Valentine Date: 10/10/2013
Subject: Re: Generator economy of scale //Re: [AWES] RE: A guide to the logi
Very valid points raised here .  .  .  weight and heat dissipation capability of high-powered electric generators. I've encountered an epidemic of failures of small, lightweight electric generators that are required to deliver high output, in different applications.

Groundgen allows for heavy, liquid-cooled (if necessary) electric generators that will offer greatly extended service life .  .  . also easy and ready access for regular maintenance.


Harry

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: santos137@yahoo.com
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 08:38:04 -0700
Subject: Generator economy of scale //Re: [AWES] RE: A guide to the logic of giant kites

 

Roddy,

It has been true that the largest generators are the cheapest to operate; a textbook case of economy-of-scale. The trend of automated manufacturing is eroding this advantage, as it becomes increasingly practical to create a flood of smaller units with ever less labor (esp. for wind-wall-of-turbines). Heat dissipation is a key issue for flygens, which must be super lightweight, so smaller is better in this niche. A big fixed industrial generator is so massive that its a huge effective heatsink. Large units generally run cooler with greater thermal stability using this mass advantage. Lifetime cost and capital costs complicate the choice question. Its safe to say that generators at all scales find large markets.

Please include in your manifesto the CC cooperative idea that existing power plants, even at the largest scales, can be incrementally converted into kite-hybrids. kPower is actively proposing this AWE bootstrap concept to its utility partner, Austin Energy, to offset coal consumption driving .5 GW gens,

daveS
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10302 From: Bob Stuart Date: 10/10/2013
Subject: Re: Generator economy of scale //Re: [AWES] RE: A guide to the logi
"Heat Sink" has acquired two different meanings.  Classically, it is something that can rapidly absorb heat, such as a metal clamp used to isolate the heat of soldering to one section of wire.  For continuous use, a pure sink does no good at all; it needs to cool itself, usually with fins to heat air.  On electronics, a finned plate applied to a chip has little thermal mass, but is still called a sink, instead of a radiator or exchanger.  

I've seen minor finning on the outside of explosion-proof motors, but I've gotten the impression that large generators are often designed with extravagant amounts of copper to increase efficiency, and no particular attention to cooling.  For continuous duty, mass means nothing; only area helps, and the square-cube law favors small units.  There is more than an order of magnitude difference in the weight of common motors in the fractional hp range, with those on model aircraft leading the pack.  

Smaller generators with less thermal mass are more vulnerable to transient overloads or high ambient temperatures, but I don't think they are inherently unreliable.  I'd like to see the per-watt cost of automotive alternators compared to the larger competition.  They are presumably reasonably well optimized for automated production, which is an advantage if what we really need to buy is a given weight of wire and iron per watt.  How have better permanent magnets changed the options?  Can the better cooling of small units reduce the weight needed?  We know that turbine blades are on the wrong end of the square-cube law, with each added pound giving less length and power than the previous one.  Would even standard wind towers do better supporting dozens of small generators instead of one big one?  

Bob Stuart

On 10-Oct-13, at 9:46 AM, Harry Valentine wrote:
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10303 From: Harry Valentine Date: 10/10/2013
Subject: Re: Generator economy of scale //Re: [AWES] RE: A guide to the logi
How would you propose to increase cooling capability of lightweight airborne generators carried by kites? 

Is it worth the cost of using balloons to carry such technology?

How do the short-term (capital & installation) cost and long-term cost (maintenance & spare parts) of conventional generators (air-cooled or water-cooled) installed at ground level compare with the cost of small, lightweight (air-cooled) airborne generators? 


Harry


To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: bobstuart@sasktel.net
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 10:42:22 -0600
Subject: Re: Generator economy of scale //Re: [AWES] RE: A guide to the logic of giant kites

 
"Heat Sink" has acquired two different meanings.  Classically, it is something that can rapidly absorb heat, such as a metal clamp used to isolate the heat of soldering to one section of wire.  For continuous use, a pure sink does no good at all; it needs to cool itself, usually with fins to heat air.  On electronics, a finned plate applied to a chip has little thermal mass, but is still called a sink, instead of a radiator or exchanger.  

I've seen minor finning on the outside of explosion-proof motors, but I've gotten the impression that large generators are often designed with extravagant amounts of copper to increase efficiency, and no particular attention to cooling.  For continuous duty, mass means nothing; only area helps, and the square-cube law favors small units.  There is more than an order of magnitude difference in the weight of common motors in the fractional hp range, with those on model aircraft leading the pack.  

Smaller generators with less thermal mass are more vulnerable to transient overloads or high ambient temperatures, but I don't think they are inherently unreliable.  I'd like to see the per-watt cost of automotive alternators compared to the larger competition.  They are presumably reasonably well optimized for automated production, which is an advantage if what we really need to buy is a given weight of wire and iron per watt.  How have better permanent magnets changed the options?  Can the better cooling of small units reduce the weight needed?  We know that turbine blades are on the wrong end of the square-cube law, with each added pound giving less length and power than the previous one.  Would even standard wind towers do better supporting dozens of small generators instead of one big one?  

Bob Stuart

On 10-Oct-13, at 9:46 AM, Harry Valentine wrote:
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10304 From: dave santos Date: 10/10/2013
Subject: (no subject)
Modulating Kite Dutch-Roll Instability for Optimal Pumping Force


As is well known, a power kite can be "staked-out" crosswind to reduce yaw instability*. An inventive leap is that varying the set geometry (and resultant altitude and crosswind distances) can make the emergent pumping force highly controllable (including maximizing dynamic-stability) for AWES use. By basic rigging means of pulleys and reels, one can set a staked-out kite to passively oscillate in a desired power-generating mode. Variations in wind and load can be better matched.

When a kite is flown from two crosswind anchors set far apart, an adjustable pulley bridle set low between the two lines effectively modulates yaw instability. Drawing the two sides together aloft causes the emergent oscillation to increase in amplitude (at a somewhat slowed frequency). Normal mode frequency is closely modulated by altering the side line lengths. Shorter lengths host higher-frequency modes.

A pilot-lifter kite set above the oscillating kite allows more aggressive power extraction by helping keep high-performance chaos risk within critical bounds, as a further modulation control. These concepts can be implemented in high unit-count crosslinked-arrays as well.

CC BY NC SA


* AKA "Dutch Roll", which involves both roll and yaw components. Note also that a "dancing kite" with relaxed lateral stability is desired (ie. no tail)
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10305 From: dave santos Date: 10/10/2013
Subject: Re: Generator economy of scale //Re: [AWES] RE: A guide to the logi
occurs (like a power plant using ocean water cooling). Increased thermal resistance with temperature is the runway generator-killing effect, and a cool-running giant generator is clearly operating well below its heat-sink limit.
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Cosmic Ray bombardment over eons :) 

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On Thursday, October 10, 2013 9:53 AM, Harry Valentine <harrycv@hotmail.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10306 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/10/2013
Subject: Modulating Kite Dutch-Roll Instability for Optimal Pumping Force
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10307 From: Baptiste Labat Date: 10/10/2013
Subject: Re: Generator economy of scale //Re: [AWES] RE: A guide to the logic
Here are my thoughts on the question of "bigger generators are better".

I think it all depends on the ressource. I will take the example of wave energy extraction. If it is too small it will not be able to retrieve the energy from the biggest waves. If it is too large, it will filter the waves out and not move at all. A good design has to be at the scale of the perturbations (modal wavelength, corresponding to peak of energy spectrum).
If you take the mega offshore wind turbine, bigger enables to go higher and to catch more wind that several smaller ones. As well bigger means they will resist better to huge waves. But such a big turbine might not be efficient because the wind is not uniform. That's why the blades are separatedly control to allow optimization of the angle of attack (pitch control) for the one at the top which has more wind, and the one at the bottom which has less wind (due to the shear layer).

Hope it might be of help even if i am not strictly speaking of generators.

++
Baptiste
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10308 From: Bob Stuart Date: 10/10/2013
Subject: Re: Generator economy of scale //Re: [AWES] RE: A guide to the logi

On 10-Oct-13, at 11:52 AM, dave santos wrote:


Bob
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10309 From: Bob Stuart Date: 10/10/2013
Subject: Re: Generator economy of scale //Re: [AWES] RE: A guide to the logi
Presumably, generators can be designed with better inherent cooling.  Even better ductwork can help, and wind is a handy resource.  Astro-Flite motors just have the usual little slots in the end plates to give circulation a chance, but no particular incentive.  Exhaust holes around the middle of the armature might take advantage of existing pressure differences.
I don't think it is ever worth the bulk of a lifting gas in a useful wind.  The lift to drag is worse than more kite.

I'd like to see a lot more comparative analyses being done, but I have not had the time to follow up all the leads to places I might find good simulation tools.  <sigh
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10310 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/10/2013
Subject: Re: Dan Tracy is back at some traction items

Near his new home, Dan Tracy continues to make a splash in kite energy: 

October 9, 2013 at 7:04 PM   

Hitch a ride on the wind in a kite boat  Seattle tinkerer puts kite-power to work on a kayak
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10311 From: dave santos Date: 10/10/2013
Subject: Re: Generator economy of scale //Re: [AWES] RE: A guide to the logi

Bob,

We can't disregard the inherently enhanced flywheel effect of bigger generators, if this helps compete against many small generators, by a smoother power output.

An example of Thermal Mass effect, of greater mass being a system thermal advantage, is a power plant with a small cooling lake (a common design). The lake reaches a thermal equilibrium with the plant's nominal heat loss (the plant's specific-heat input) as a higher average water temperature, in proportion to water mass and associated higher surface area. A larger water mass with more surface area finds a lower equilibrium temperature. If the lake shrinks in drought, the lower water mass finds a higher equilibrium temperature. If the lake mass drops enough, the remaining cooling water even boils away in a thermal-runaway. A large heat-sink mass, like an ocean, is more robust against overheating than a small mass. Hope this example helped,

daveS





On Thursday, October 10, 2013 1:48 PM, Bob Stuart <bobstuart@sasktel.net
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10312 From: dave santos Date: 10/11/2013
Subject: Giant Kite Logic (a manifesto)
A few notes for Rod (sorry for any redundancy)-

Wherever bigger-is-better for generator usage, giant kites can do the job. Should small-generator large-arrays emerge as an economy-of-scale contender (they haven't yet), giant kites can drive the lot as well.

Giant Kites best meet FAA "conspicuity" requirement. Small fast kiteplanes on long tethers are least conspicuous ("menace to aviation").
 
Use Loyd to make your case, since his classic paper impartially supports the effectiveness of large wing area, even by classic kites. Choose a handful of key references (like TACO1.0) to add to the Manifesto (I am gleaning inadvertent validatory references from Springer collection).

Maximal Streamtube Efficiency of the regulatory airspace (an operational unit window 2000' ASL by roughly 1km wide) requires a giant kite approach. This correlates to maximal airspace and land footprint utilization.

Giant Loadpaths predicted to have long service life. Membranes have fast payback. Continuous hotswapping and recycling of membrane is proposed.

Cool jobs is an urgent global social need. Giant-Kite Pilot is a dream-job :)


Go, Roddy, Go!
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10313 From: dave santos Date: 10/11/2013
Subject: Stratospheric Thin-Film Solar AWES

 
Its a popular synergistic idea, that a kite's surface might double as a solar panel. The big problems are that solar power is far more diffuse than good wind, and a kite's inherent wind orientation and optimal solar orientation only rarely align. Then there are issues like excess capital cost per unit-energy, added flight weight, and so on. The idea seems limited to low aux-power aloft.

What if a vast solar farm could be could be made to fly like a delicate veil in the middle stratosphere in the form of a vast graphene thin-film, with networked conductors and loadpaths. The middle stratosphere generally has gentle winds in calm conditions well above storms. Just like Bucky's flying city sphere, the translucent film could be buoyed up by its own greenhouse-lift. Kites and other aircraft types could keep the solar veil stretched out and in place, even from below. A dynamic network of conductors to the ground, or even cryogenic fuel production, could be employed.

The solar veil described could wander across global grids. It would have to be continuously recycled as it wears. Creating shade on a large scale and reflecting excess solar flux spaceward are possible applications. Ultimately, the veil could span the world, with embedded utilities and even communities sustained aloft. Its just as if a Bucky's sphere were to contain the whole earth. There is a relentless historic trend of world-changing technology. Big ideas are an unstoppable train. Lets hope that stratospheric superstructure as presented here would help heal the world, or at least be benign. 

At its simplest, for now, a solar thin-film can be flown as a "cape", a sort of damped horizontal flag, under an ordinary kite, for a predicted improvement in solar-kite hybrid performance. Level solar orientation with neutral self-lift is a good start, but opportunistically tilted and riffled versions are possible.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10314 From: Bob Stuart Date: 10/11/2013
Subject: Re: Generator economy of scale //Re: [AWES] RE: A guide to the logi
OK, that example of a remote sink, with extra variables makes perfect sense.  I just couldn't tell  what you were talking about, since the context for the discussion was the thermal mass of the generator itself.

Bob

On 10-Oct-13, at 8:01 PM, dave santos wrote:
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10315 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/11/2013
Subject: Crosswinding cable-constrained tactics
David Lang in 2004 noted a couple of ways in his published article: 



Many very old patents in wind power used crosswinding of wings to drive a loop cable to drive generators. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10316 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/11/2013
Subject: Re: Crosswinding cable-constrained tactics


David Lang's article is in Drachen Foundation archives. 

===============================================


Recall that text descriptions are more important than drawings. Mechanical patents cannot afford to draw the infinite embodiments that are covered by a mechanical operation.


In such light, for exercise, one might go through the text of 

https://www.google.com/patents/US1953444   of 1932.   Scores of early wind power patents play with wings on cableways. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10317 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/11/2013
Subject: Re: Crosswinding cable-constrained tactics

"My invention relates to wind mills or wind motors and more particularly to a wind motor which is in general of the merry go-round type and' in which a series of sail driven trucks travel over a continuous track and serve to jointly drive a cable having driving engagement with a power wheel the power developed by the turning of which wheel may be readily applied for doing useful work."  Oct 4, 1923   HERE: https://www.google.com/ patents/US1518022 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10318 From: David Lang Date: 10/11/2013
Subject: Re: Crosswinding cable-constrained tactics
BTW, my report (referenced in the related comments from Joe) should be viewed for what it is….a very outdated and, by current standards, naive compendium…albeit, at the time it was done, there was very little organized information on the subject, so it might have had a modicum of utility :-)

DaveL
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10319 From: Gabor Dobos Date: 10/11/2013
Subject: Re: Generator economy of scale //Re: [AWES] RE: A guide to the logi
Some further details to the topic of liquid air cooling of electric motors, generators:
(By the way, if cooling proceeds with LE or LN2, superconductive technology is at hand.)

 The limit of today’s technical state puts the power to weight ratio of a brushless electric motor at 6-10 kW/kg (  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power-to-weight_ratio ), but a superconducting device cooled with liquid nitrogen may reach even 20 kW/kg. There is extensive research in this field and a predicted value of 25-40 kW/kg in the case of motors and about 40-80 kW/kg in the case of generators may be found in the literature (Next Generation More-Electric Aircraft:  A Potential Application for HTS Superconductors Cesar A. Luongo, Senior Member, IEEE, Philippe J. Masson, Senior Member, IEEE, Taewoo Nam,  Dimitri Mavris, Hyun D. Kim, Gerald V. Brown, Mark Waters, David Hall ).

 Gabor



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10320 From: dave santos Date: 10/11/2013
Subject: kitesurfer engineer on wave power

This kitesurfer looks beyond his aerial kite to regard wave power, which we also alertly study, by the same direct experience of fluidic nature (plus numerical simulations), in order to create new ECS-
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10321 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/11/2013
Subject: Re: Generator economy of scale //Re: [AWES] RE: A guide to the logi
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10322 From: roderickjosephread Date: 10/12/2013
Subject: Re: Crosswinding cable-constrained tactics

I don't think even the author agrees with you in this case Joe.


As he says


 The mechanical and structural features by which I carry the theory into practice will be clear from the drawings and the following description- In Figures 2, 3 and 4 the wings 1 are mounted on wheels 2 and travel on the track 3. The wings are interconnected by the cables 4 and 5..........


Interpreting the text is only 1 description medium . It can only advance you so far. Text and language were developed because our bodies didn't have video output ports and media card writers. 


Reading through and comprehending the text of a patent can take months. Video gives a decent overview in seconds.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10323 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/12/2013
Subject: Re: Crosswinding cable-constrained tactics

Rod, 

      When I posted that laconic sentence, a guardian angel whispered ever so slightly to my inner self: "You are going to get a response from someone, probably the graphic champ Rod Read, as his very name recalls the gift of the tension between "Rod" (stick in hand?)   and the "Read" (text space) of things.  The whisper said, "Joe, you are going to have to explain yourself a bit more and give some references, etc., if you are going to communicate the notion intended."  And on duty was my graphic champ that has been blessing MANY and myself with awe graphics to the AWE world!  Thanks for the synergy, Rod, as communicating novelty does have its helpers and dimensions and means...which are varied.   The tension will bring on some clarifying exercise that might be helpful to one other, but will be helpful for me ... and then I will end a bit more prepared to serve others and my own activity.   I will be doing a series of essays around the matter of how novelty may and is communicated in the world, including the patent space.  The playground is large and fertile.   A first installment will show within a week and followed by other installments. Chime in as you wish, All. 
     How is novelty communicated?  
How might novelty be communicated?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10324 From: dave santos Date: 10/12/2013
Subject: Mothra-tech Easy Giant Sewing Method
From current Mothra development-
 
A giant tarp must be backed up with a rope loadpath net to make a proper giant kite. The rope acts as the primary load structure, and has a ripstop function. The problem is that a loose loadpath net can shift around and is more prone to fouling.

The solution is "giant sewing", where the tarp is first pierced and grommeted in a large suitable pattern. The rope loadpaths are then threaded over-and-under through the grommets, just like "giant sewing". This method is simple, easy, and fast, even in the field; and the kite is neatly finished.

Draw-lines for trim and furling similarly run in grommets.

CC BY NC SA
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10325 From: roderickjosephread Date: 10/12/2013
Subject: Re: Mothra-tech Easy Giant Sewing Method

Grommet holes have to be substantially larger than loadpaths.

You should see the trouble I have just shutting the curtains in my living room. brass rings and straight pole.

A good flick holding the bunch near the top works well. but try to pull a leading edge to close them ... not a hope. snags every time.

Draw lines through either sides of the pole / loadpath may help
CC BY NC SA
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10326 From: dave santos Date: 10/12/2013
Subject: Re: Mothra-tech Easy Giant Sewing Method

Good point, Rod, that the grommet holes should be extra big to ease the loadpath. Maybe oblong grommets are optimal.

A further detail is that we pre-reinforce hole locations with a swatch of 3M "Extreme-Hold" duct tape before grommeting, often with a crow-foot, star, or similar structural patch, with good results so far. Strong tape itself is a loadpath.

Shop Note- For a reliable bond, always carefully burnish "sail tapes" with a metal spoon against a hard table surface.






On Saturday, October 12, 2013 2:35 PM, "rod.read@gmail.com" <rod.read@gmail.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10327 From: dave santos Date: 10/12/2013
Subject: Hybrid Power Plants going mainstream (AWE Hybrids will follow)

Retrofitting legacy fossil-fuel plants as renewable hybrids is going mainstream, with new projects all over the world. Australia is a leader in this trend-


AWE pilot projects will be able to develop at low capital cost and low biz risk within this model. Many hybrid configurations are possible, like AWE/solar/coal, where, if the promise holds, legacy coal use is gracefully phased-out.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10328 From: dave santos Date: 10/13/2013
Subject: Taking AWE Viral

Notes to Rod's call for viral AWE-

"Logic of Giant Kites" is definitely a captivating idea. The tricky part is fully connecting with all three of our main audiences. Broadly, there are two outside audiences, after CPSnow, of elite technocratic culture, and pop culture. The inside audience is the still-small number of AWE developers who indeed tend toward profound advances, but are also a pretty goofy bunch, with few exceptions :)

As a specific deliverable, Rod's giant kite logic is a fine chapter for JoeF's AWE Textbook, but needs to be carefully polished in that light. Success will consist in creating a classic understanding that motivates a far wider tech community.

An abridged pop-manifesto version of Logic of Giant Kites, for the hipster-digerati class, would be very helpful. We are talking about a visionary utopian voice like Bucky Fuller, a prophetic counterpart to Bill Joy's dystopian masterpiece "Why the Future does not need Us"-


For AWE to really be a pop craze, imitability (ease of entry)- DIY plans and social support are essential. We are on track with these deliverables, but with a lot more hard work to do.

We need spectacular DIY feats that make reality dream-like, like giant kites with "human fleas" aboard*. To some reading this, please come outdoors and help complete pending adventures. Many are old kite records, ripe to fall, like kite size, endurance, and altitude. AWE's max power record can be spectacularly set by special designs very different from our developmental scale prototypes.

We need all kinds of AWE sticky-memes, not just manifestos. A major Hollywood movie with the AWE race as a premise, is a follow-on goal of the current AWE documentary effort, so expect news. Developing a unique production design for a kite story is an active study.

Viral methods can be very low-tech. If every newcomer to AWE is asked to recruit more folks, participation could explode on that basis alone, much like an old-fashioned chain-letter was viral. Some of us have recruited many new faces already, and the practice just needs to spread. Even rather random connections have brought in talent to AWE.

Our viral moment nears. We are still sitting on Taleb's "barrel-of-dynamite". We are already catching the early wave, of things really taking off. Rod's paean needs to express how far along we are already, not just how far we have to go.


*  On the visionary side, Saraceno owes AWE his Mothra-derivative Flying Plaza renderings, which we are bringing to life.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10329 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/13/2013
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Lta windpower

  • http://www.energykitesystems.net/ChristofBeaupoil/index.html   Christo mentioned at 2013 conference a reference on generators that included a link to Nykolai Bilaniuk.   See link for video by Christo Beaupoil.
  • LTA Windpower is a recent focus of Nykolai Bilaniuk. 
  • " "Dr. Nykolai Bilaniuk former Chief Engineer of Magenn Power Inc of Ottawa""
  • The blog involved on LTA Windpower  seems to have been in a dated pause. http://www.ltawind.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10330 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/13/2013
Subject: Overview of AWE


 

See: http://pigpower.org   See graphic. Then also click the graphic to get to http://www.mindmeister.com/132484153/awe   for an active + or -  response.  [[Ed:  Sure wish all projects were in the graphic! What is going on that key projects seem to be left out of mention? [ ]?   ]]

 [[Ed: Missing are many projects.]]   See:  AWEstakeholders/index.html

[[ If you find any projects missing, please send info to Editor@EnergyKiteSystems.net      ]]
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10331 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/14/2013
Subject: Re: Overview of AWE

The email address posted was stripped by the program from its functioning:

If you know of a project that is missing from the AWE Stakeholders, then post in this thread and we will pick it up and include it. 

    Also, if you know of an AWE worker who is not listed on the Stakeholders list, then that may be posted or sent personally to me.  The guess is that we are missing recognizing hundreds of associates who are advancing kite energy AWES.   

Lift, 

JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10332 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/14/2013
Subject: Suggestions for masters theses and projects
This topic thread could describe what might be the focus of someone's masters thesis and/or project. 

======================================
Start: 
A clip from 
had not been seen and so we place a study clip from the larger page: 
================
"

PROJECT and MASTER THESES 2012/2013

 

Below you’ll find proposed topics for project and master theses. Most of the proposed topics are just sketches. The detailed topics will be made in discussion between student and supervisor."

Airborne wind turbines for ship propulsion

 

 

Airborne wind energy is a new and developing technology. Several designs have been suggested. Companies like Makani Power and Joby Energy are developing tethered wings outfitted with wind turbines. The wing flies in large circles several hundred meters above the ground, driven by the wind. Since the wing travels through the air at a high speed, it can generate a lot of power for its size.

This project thesis, which may be continued into a master’s thesis, will explore the possibility of utilizing airborne wind turbines for ship propulsion. Electrical power generated by the generators on the wing will be used to drive the ship propeller, but the aerodynamic forces on the wing itself will also help propel the ship forward in an apparent tailwind. Simplified aerodynamic models should be made to predict the power from the wind turbine and the drag in the tether that is connected to the ship. Practical aspects such as take-off, landing, ship stability etc. should also be discussed.

 ------------ end of study clip from  http://folk.ntnu.no/sverres/prosj-dipl_ideer.htm   
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10333 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/14/2013
Subject: Re: Overview of AWE

It is working. Someone notice that the below entity had not been recognized yet. Now we get to recognize the group in the Automatic Control Laboratory: 


 The Airborne Wind Energy Group of the IFA at Institut fur Automatik (Automatic Control Laboratory) 

Notes from that group are welcome. Discussion over their projects and papers are invited. 


......................
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10334 From: Harry Valentine Date: 10/14/2013
Subject: Re: Suggestions for masters theses and projects
Airborne sail kites would yield greater efficiency

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: joefaust333@gmail.com
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 07:40:39 -0700
Subject: [AWES] Suggestions for masters theses and projects

 
This topic thread could describe what might be the focus of someone's masters thesis and/or project. 

======================================
Start: 
A clip from 
had not been seen and so we place a study clip from the larger page: 
================
"

PROJECT and MASTER THESES 2012/2013

 

Below you’ll find proposed topics for project and master theses. Most of the proposed topics are just sketches. The detailed topics will be made in discussion between student and supervisor."

Airborne wind turbines for ship propulsion

 

 

Airborne wind energy is a new and developing technology. Several designs have been suggested. Companies like Makani Power and Joby Energy are developing tethered wings outfitted with wind turbines. The wing flies in large circles several hundred meters above the ground, driven by the wind. Since the wing travels through the air at a high speed, it can generate a lot of power for its size.

This project thesis, which may be continued into a master’s thesis, will explore the possibility of utilizing airborne wind turbines for ship propulsion. Electrical power generated by the generators on the wing will be used to drive the ship propeller, but the aerodynamic forces on the wing itself will also help propel the ship forward in an apparent tailwind. Simplified aerodynamic models should be made to predict the power from the wind turbine and the drag in the tether that is connected to the ship. Practical aspects such as take-off, landing, ship stability etc. should also be discussed.

 ------------ end of study clip from  http://folk.ntnu.no/sverres/prosj-dipl_ideer.htm   
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10335 From: dave santos Date: 10/14/2013
Subject: "Kite Number"- the Ratio of Min Wing-Loading to Max Wing-Loading

An ideal kite is virtually weightless and indestructible, hardly needing wind to stay aloft, and able to cope with extreme loadings. In reality, quality UL kites are light enough to fly in a wind velocity of only 1-2ms, but tend to deform and destabilize by 8ms. A sturdy kite able to cope with high winds needs a minimum wind of about 3-4ms and can cope with 15ms or more. A "bulletproof" parafoil parachute designed to withstand high-load high-speed opening-shocks of 50ms, or so, might need about 5-6ms velocity to fly. 

A kite's apparent velocity is generally in proportion to its wing-loading (tensile force in Newtons). For a soft fully-tensile wing, the possible ratio between its lower wing-loading bound and max loading is astounding, something like 1/1000. Untethered conventional aircraft, by contrast, have a far narrower flight-envelope. This dimensionless "Kite Number" represents the relative ampleness of a good kite's flight-envelope, and its intrinsic fitness as an AWES wing. The dimensional factor of importance is to match the most-probable-windspeed with the mean-loading of a high Kite Number wing, for an optimal capacity factor.

A stick kite is only able to reach high Kite Number performance at small sizes, up to about 3-4m WS. Larger rigid wings, with exponential (cubic-mass) scaling penalties, face an increasingly constrained flight-envelope, critically over-depending on a brittle regime of realtime active control of always needing to fly faster than most-probable wind. At some point near 15m WS, the window of min-to-max wing-loading becomes too narrow for safe reliable flight, and the wing sooon breaks in flight or flies into the ground (high wing-loading reduces maneuverability). We can see these constraining trends emerge in the flight data limits presented by Makani and Aympx in the Springer AWE book.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10336 From: snapscan_snapscan Date: 10/14/2013
Subject: Re: Overview of AWE

 Hi Joe,


Thanks for posting the link to pigpower.com and my apologies for not listing all projects (yet). The AWE-Map is work in progress and started as my personal attempt to structure the AWE field for me. Based on the feedback I got on AWEC2013 I decided to put it online - hoping to get more feedback that will help to complete the map.


I only started to include projects recently - trying to find at least one example for each approach. Your list is certainly much more complete! Having said that I am happy to include any project that you want to highlight - just let me know. If I find the time I will also go through your list of stakeholders and look for a way to structure it for the AWE-Map.


On a side note: Thank you for the incredible collection for information about AWE you have pulled together - without it I would not have been able to put the AWE-Map together!


Thank you!

/cb
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10337 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/14/2013
Subject: Re: Overview of AWE
Christof, 
        ... thank YOU.   Fine contribution to the cause!  Grow it.  The tool will touch many. 

Changes requested to our page on you are easily made.   Feel free to point to furthers as you wish.    Thanks. 
    Nite here, 
     Best, 
        Joe      
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10338 From: dave santos Date: 10/15/2013
Subject: Roy Mueller's Aerology Lab to join Kite Power Cooperative

Rod,

Talked to Roy this morning, and he is happy for Aerology Lab to join the coop, so please sign them up.

For the general reader, Roy is a top kite designer (SkyBow is an AWES of his, that Rod flew in Berlin/Tempelhof). He studied kite design and kite-making directly under the great Jalbert, whose parafoil continues dominant in AWE R&D. The Aerology Lab was founded by Jalbert, and Roy keeps up the grand tradition,

daveS

PS Aerology Lab and Roy are also founding-circle members of AWEIA
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10339 From: dave santos Date: 10/15/2013
Subject: Ajazeera Coverage of AWE
Thanks to PJ for link-

EARTHRISE

How it works: Way Out Wind



How pioneering designs could revolutionise the way we harness wind.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10340 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/15/2013
Subject: Re: Ajazeera Coverage of AWE

 Some localities do not receive broadcasts of Earthrise.   Report by some viewer would be appreciated. Thanks in advance. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10341 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/15/2013
Subject: Re: A guide to the logic of giant kites
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10342 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/16/2013
Subject: Kite Foilboarding is taking off

"Kite Foilboardi ng"

kite system with two wings: 
1. Air wing
2  High-performance hydrofoil paravane

The two wings are coupled by a tether set to form a kite system.
Control system is by human coordination of mass placement and string adjusting.

 The body of the pilot forms a mid-line third wing with its own aerodynamics.  The users are reporting faster-than-course-board travel.  The human fuel cost per mile has not been calculated yet. Besides travel there is an option of adding wind and/or water generators to the system; however, there is no report of anyone doing such operations yet. Getting places faster with less stress on knees has been reported compared to course boarding where wave chop is felt. KFB is smoother; but the twitchiness of the hydrofoil is challenging. 

    At large offshore AWES farms, maybe technicians could scoot about using KFB tactics. 

   YouTube videos on topic: 
http://tinyurl.com/YouTubeKiteFoilboading 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10343 From: dave santos Date: 10/16/2013
Subject: A closer look at a great LAGI AWE submission

 
We admired some of the 2010 LAGI "Weather Field" presentation graphics in image searches, but somehow (I think) missed linking to this coherent package of text and images-

http://landartgenerator.org/blagi/archives/922

Lead architect, Mason White, is being contacted for possible collaboration in current Airborne Architecture (and energy) experiments enabled by upper-wind and Mothra-tech.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10344 From: edoishi Date: 10/16/2013
Subject: Re: A closer look at a great LAGI AWE submission

A better link is this one:


http://lateraloffice.com/weatherfield-2010


 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10345 From: dave santos Date: 10/16/2013
Subject: Toy LED Kite AWES by Ben Chapman

 Its easy to create endless variations, both practical and playful, within this class of AWES-
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10346 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/16/2013
Subject: Pocock page updated
Many more tidbits are on the page on George Pocock. 

Using inline frame his full book is also on the page. 
[ ] We still do not have a copy of the patent by James Viney and George Pocock number 5420 in Great Britain.  If anyone has a copy of the actual patent, such would be welcome for the folder. 
Enjoy: 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10347 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/16/2013
Subject: Re: A closer look at a great LAGI AWE submission