Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                           AWES9740to9789 Page 92 of 440.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9740 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/26/2013
Subject: Re: BaseLoad Energy tackles big-time tether challenges for FEGs

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9741 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/26/2013
Subject: Re: BaseLoad Energy tackles big-time tether challenges for FEGs

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9742 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/26/2013
Subject: Re: BaseLoad Energy tackles big-time tether challenges for FEGs

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9743 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/26/2013
Subject: Re: BaseLoad Energy tackles big-time tether challenges for FEGs

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9744 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/26/2013
Subject: Windmill kite by Roberts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9745 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/26/2013
Subject: Re: BaseLoad Energy tackles big-time tether challenges for FEGs

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9746 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/26/2013
Subject: Re: BaseLoad Energy tackles big-time tether challenges for FEGs

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9747 From: Rod Read Date: 7/27/2013
Subject: Re: Betz for Kites: Power Generation Using Tethered Wings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9748 From: Rod Read Date: 7/27/2013
Subject: Re: Rotary-blade kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9749 From: Rod Read Date: 7/27/2013
Subject: Re: NASA Technology Transfer Opportunity:

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9750 From: hardensoftintl Date: 7/27/2013
Subject: Re: Confirm AWEIA 2014 rumor

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9751 From: Gabor Dobos Date: 7/27/2013
Subject: IFO-ENERGY-UNLIMITED Re: [AWES] Re: Fwd: Energy-Harvesting Glid

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9752 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/27/2013
Subject: AWES may interrupt some sorts of transmissions

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9753 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/27/2013
Subject: Tethered Airships US 20120312918 A1, application for patent

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9754 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/27/2013
Subject: Flying electric generators with clean air rotors

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9755 From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com Date: 7/28/2013
Subject: New file uploaded to AirborneWindEnergy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9756 From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com Date: 7/28/2013
Subject: New file uploaded to AirborneWindEnergy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9757 From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com Date: 7/28/2013
Subject: New file uploaded to AirborneWindEnergy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9758 From: Gabor Dobos Date: 7/28/2013
Subject: IFO - ENERGY - UNLIMITED

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9759 From: David Lang Date: 7/28/2013
Subject: Re: IFO-ENERGY-UNLIMITED Re: [AWES] Re: Fwd: Energy-Harvesting

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9760 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/28/2013
Subject: Re: IFO-ENERGY-UNLIMITED Re: [AWES] Re: Fwd: Energy-Harvesting Glide

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9761 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2013
Subject: Re: IFO-ENERGY-UNLIMITED Re: [AWES] Re: Fwd: Energy-Harvesting

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9762 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/28/2013
Subject: Re: IFO - ENERGY - UNLIMITED

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9763 From: David Lang Date: 7/28/2013
Subject: Re: IFO-ENERGY-UNLIMITED Re: [AWES] Re: Fwd: Energy-Harvesting Glide

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9764 From: Bob Stuart Date: 7/28/2013
Subject: Re: IFO-ENERGY-UNLIMITED Re: [AWES] Re: Fwd: Energy-Harvesting Glide

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9765 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2013
Subject: AWE Encampment Report (High Load-Velocity isCrosswind Cableway)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9766 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/28/2013
Subject: Sport traction kiting was to be in but now is out of Rio Olympics

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9767 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/28/2013
Subject: Electric aircraft driven via electric conducting line to ground powe

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9768 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/28/2013
Subject: Re: Electric aircraft driven via electric conducting line to ground

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9769 From: christopher carlin Date: 7/28/2013
Subject: Re: Electric aircraft driven via electric conducting line to ground

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9770 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/28/2013
Subject: Re: Electric aircraft driven via electric conducting line to ground

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9771 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/28/2013
Subject: Young's teaching on phased-pumping of rotary-wing kite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9772 From: Gabor Dobos Date: 7/28/2013
Subject: IFO-ENERGY-UNLIMITED -- Follow the winds --

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9773 From: Doug Date: 7/29/2013
Subject: Re: Rotary-blade kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9774 From: Doug Date: 7/29/2013
Subject: Re: Flying electric generators with clean air rotors

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9775 From: Doug Date: 7/29/2013
Subject: Re: NASA Technology Transfer Opportunity:

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9776 From: Doug Date: 7/29/2013
Subject: Re: Confirm AWEIA 2014 rumor

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9777 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2013
Subject: Synchronized Looping Foils under Mothras

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9778 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2013
Subject: Reminder about the critical-challenges of rigid-wing AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9779 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/29/2013
Subject: Re: IFO-ENERGY-UNLIMITED -- Follow the winds --

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9780 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/29/2013
Subject: Re: Rotary-blade kites || occupying inventors

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9781 From: Gabor Dobos Date: 7/29/2013
Subject: Re: IFO-ENERGY-UNLIMITED -- Follow the winds --

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9782 From: Doug Date: 7/30/2013
Subject: Re: Reminder about the critical-challenges of rigid-wing AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9783 From: Doug Date: 7/30/2013
Subject: Re: NASA Technology Transfer Opportunity:

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9784 From: Doug Date: 7/30/2013
Subject: Re: IFO - ENERGY - UNLIMITED

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9785 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/30/2013
Subject: Peter Lynn and his ideas on kite power for commercial shipping

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9786 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/30/2013
Subject: Giant kites of Guatemala

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9787 From: Harry Valentine Date: 7/30/2013
Subject: Re: Peter Lynn and his ideas on kite power for commercial shipping

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9788 From: Gabor Dobos Date: 7/31/2013
Subject: IFO-ENERGY-UNLIMITED Re: Just add a RAT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9789 From: Gabor Dobos Date: 7/31/2013
Subject: Re: IFO - ENERGY - UNLIMITED -- Energy storage




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9740 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/26/2013
Subject: Re: BaseLoad Energy tackles big-time tether challenges for FEGs
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9741 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/26/2013
Subject: Re: BaseLoad Energy tackles big-time tether challenges for FEGs
At that site, I submitted a message; the site moderator is considering publishing the note; the note may or may not get posted. 

Here is the note: 
"Thank you for your presentation.  Our nascent industry has been introduced to conflicts by the case.  As you note, the case is more about drafting of agreements than the substance of the patent involved.  The kite energy or airborne wind energy community is carefully reviewing patent-claim validity in light of what has been placed in the public domain with protection periods falling away on a huge body of patents. There is also a large body of exposed art in kite energy that would seem to invalidate many claims in recent patents and patent applications. A public open forum is available for the public to discuss such matters. EnergyKiteSystems has over 1500 files related to these matters; the files are open to the public freely. "    
============================================================
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9742 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/26/2013
Subject: Re: BaseLoad Energy tackles big-time tether challenges for FEGs
There might be a way to see the full case file on the 2008 first action, but I have not found a way yet. 
The following page asks for $7.95 for a copy of the full case.  I did not buy a copy.  Maybe someone has a copy that may be linked. 
Notice that the case noted on the link herebelow was ordered as "Denied as MOOT".    So, the question is, were defects corrected and a refiling made? How else could a matter have been the subject of an appeal? 
Maybe the following is pertinent: 
And

One case's decision in the lower court apparently from the appeals court was "reversed and remanded."  I do not have the whole matter clear; maybe someone will make the history clear.    

Mentioned in the appeal decision, at least were familiar companies. But a new one for me "Sky Power"
(notice that it was distinct from Sky WindPower).    

----------------- Aside from the particulars of the agreements and dispute in the above cases,  there is an aside question about the actual validity of claims made in the Roberts' patents; such matter could be discussed separately on a technical mechanical game floor. 

~JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9743 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/26/2013
Subject: Re: BaseLoad Energy tackles big-time tether challenges for FEGs
This seems to be one case:   Civil Action No. 08-1838 (PLF)
BASELOAD ENERGY, INC., Plaintiff, 
v.  
BRYAN W. ROBERTS, ))
Defendant.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9744 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/26/2013
Subject: Windmill kite by Roberts
U.S. Patent No. 6,781,254
Publication numberUS6781254 B2
Publication typeGrant
Application numberUS 10/273,060
Publication dateAug 24, 2004
Filing dateOct 17, 2002
Priority dateNov 7, 2001
Fee statusPaid
Also published asUS20030091437
InventorsBryan William Roberts
Original AssigneeBryan William Roberts
External Links: USPTOUSPTO AssignmentEspacenet
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9745 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/26/2013
Subject: Re: BaseLoad Energy tackles big-time tether challenges for FEGs
Resnick et al v. Shepard et al
Plaintiffs: David Resnick and Sky Power LLC
Defendants: David Shepard, Brian Roberts, Sky Windpower Corporation and DOES
Case Number: 3:2007cv00813
Filed: May 4, 2007
Court: California Southern District Court
Office: Contract: Other Office
County: XX US, Outside State
Presiding Judge: Judge M. James Lorenz
Referring Judge: Magistrate Judge Cathy Ann Bencivengo
Nature of Suit: Contract - Other Contract
Cause: Diversity
Jurisdiction: Diversity
Jury Demanded By: 28:1332 Diversity-Breach of Contract
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9746 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/26/2013
Subject: Re: BaseLoad Energy tackles big-time tether challenges for FEGs
http://businessprofiles.com/details/sky-power-llc/US-NV-20061203857
gives basic data on Sky Power, LLC.

  • Date of Formation: 2006-08-07
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9747 From: Rod Read Date: 7/27/2013
Subject: Re: Betz for Kites: Power Generation Using Tethered Wings
That's why I'm into Open Source Hardware kites development.
A motivated contributor, provided a better answer than I could before I'd had a chance to get to my laptop.

The answer and these forum discussions serve as a change log.
Essential to successful OS project development.

If you consider recent criticism of opensourceecology.org
Where most discussion was controlled, edited and filtered by 1 overbearing founder...
VS
The success of the Bio Brick Foundation biobricks.org DNA database.
They obliterate IP roadblocks & promote democratisation of synthetic biology. Openness seems critical for life.
At their latest synthetic biology conference all of the work presented was application driven and industry ready. Bio Brick Foundation has moved far beyond it's initial hype phase of development.

Interestingly, 1 of the presentations was on Bacterial cellulose materials, complex seamless forms were presented as bio-coture. "fashion"

If you need a replacement for opensourceecology.org
it already exists. Initial contributors are regrouping their materials.
They also have resource.org to guide them.


Another, essential to OS, strength we have on this forum is Attribution.
Joe Faust take a bow, you make it possible.


Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9748 From: Rod Read Date: 7/27/2013
Subject: Re: Rotary-blade kites
Come on board Doug.

Well OK I guess Dave S.' insistence that oscillating cloth sails are the future of wind energy threw me. Eliminate Dave S. from the discussion and I could agree with this.

It's not just Dave S. Others are onto it too. The SCALING available to arch kites (or meshes) means that power can be tapped from many points along their length. (depth or height not excluded)

Blow your mind for a second and imagine a 10km arch kite. Add a line of 100MW generators tethering underneath that kite. Start it oscillating (wobbling like a jelly if you wish) ...

It's quite do-able. (fancy graphic time roddys youtube video)
You'll have to imagine the generator line there as I drew a simplified 1 each end drawing for simplicity...

Your big spinny tower is do-able too as you prove (another fancy graphic more roddys youtube)
Might be an improvement. Spinny stuff definitely can be applied usefully, but it's not that huge..

Honestly you're smart enough to get over it.
We retain the ability to learn new skills like a child.


Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9749 From: Rod Read Date: 7/27/2013
Subject: Re: NASA Technology Transfer Opportunity:
Vision technology can be incorporated into kite control.
Interestingly it is described as pre-beta. How far can it go?
The video shows a webcam ... is that the vision system?

Is this a concept demo only?
What resolution, tracking speed and accuracy does it achieve?
Has it proven to be enough for primary control sensing of a single kite?

If so...To be more useful to the larger ground effect "Mothra" style arch or mesh kites...

Can it be reassigned to analyse a single kixel (kite unit in a kite mesh) or a kixel area.
Certainly the kixel patches could be (colour..) coded to make area identity easy.

Can the vision component be arrayed / aggregated to provide higher overall position resolution of huge kites?

An arduinho with a kinnect 3d head image can already be analysed in grasshopper and interpreted to control parametric response of tracker tables and kite lines. Sure as an Open Source software solution will be available to link multiple "eyes"

How much better than that can the NASA tech be?


Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9750 From: hardensoftintl Date: 7/27/2013
Subject: Re: Confirm AWEIA 2014 rumor
For all I know AWE Conferences till this moment have been organized exclusively by AWEConsortium refusing AWEIA's offer to participate in any official capacity.
While AWEIA reserves the right to organize a Conference of her own; a decision to that effect is not yet made and will not be made by a single individual nor in secret.
AWEIA in her continuing efforts to foster unity and transparency amongst all stakeholders will continue to extend a cooperative hand to any and all AWE activities and events globally.
Best lifts.
John Oyebanji
President-protem,
AWEIA International
www.aweia.org
Sent from my BlackBerry wireless device from MTN

From: PJ Shepard <pj@aweconsortium.org
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 18:22:15 -0700
To: dave santos<santos137@yahoo.com

AWEC might chose not to develop one itself to compete with an AWEIA 2014 conference should AWEIA decide to develop and hold one. AWEC has still not taken any steps on a conference for next year. We don't believe that the industry has enough band width, yet, to support traveling to and presenting at two conferences within one year as some would surely want to do. The door is still open for you or AWEIA to step up and do one the way that you and/or AWEIA would prefer to see it done...maybe even in conjunction with AWEFest?  

Sincere best wishes for success with AWEFest. When do you think you'll have a date for that event?

Upward,

PJ 


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9751 From: Gabor Dobos Date: 7/27/2013
Subject: IFO-ENERGY-UNLIMITED Re: [AWES] Re: Fwd: Energy-Harvesting Glid

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9752 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/27/2013
Subject: AWES may interrupt some sorts of transmissions
"Although most optical transmission media is not interruptible by foreign objects passing therethrough, a free space optical path of these systems is temporarily interruptible by objects such as airplanes, birds, insects, leaves, and kites among others. Because one cannot tightly control events which may interrupt the transmission medium, transceivers of these inventions include special adaptive mechanisms responsive to interruptions. Where a data stream is interrupted for a brief time such as in the case where a bird flies through a beam, an error is raised and a request for retransmission of interrupted data is conveyed. Thus a data stream previously transmitted but not properly received is re-transmitted so its arrival at the intended receiver is assured."

Siting of AWES will include the exploration of extant free-space optical transmission systems. 
First guess is that this will only rarely be a challenge. But the matter is recorded. 

~JoeF

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9753 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/27/2013
Subject: Tethered Airships US 20120312918 A1, application for patent
See some AWES in his instructions

=======================
Tethered Airships
US 20120312918 A1
Publication numberUS20120312918 A1
Publication typeApplication
Application numberUS 13/159,215
Publication dateDec 13, 2012
Filing dateJun 13, 2011
Priority dateJun 13, 2011
InventorsStephen Heppe
Original AssigneeStephen Heppe
External Links: USPTOUSPTO AssignmentEspacenet
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9754 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/27/2013
Subject: Flying electric generators with clean air rotors
By "clean" is meant that the rotors will receive fresh stream undisturbed flow of air, it seems. 
The applicants teach configurations of the kite-systems' wings that will provide "clean" stream to each of the several rotary blades in order to harvest energy from the wind. 
Bruce Weddendorf 
Colin Austin
Greg MERCIER
Robert Austin
===========================================================

Publication numberUS20120298793 A1
Publication typeApplication
Application numberUS 13/479,011
Publication dateNov 29, 2012
Filing dateMay 23, 2012
Priority dateMay 23, 2011
Also published asWO2012162421A1
InventorsBruce WeddendorfColin AustinGreg MERCIERRobert Austin
Original AssigneeSky Windpower Corporation
External Links: USPTOUSPTO AssignmentEspacenet
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9755 From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com Date: 7/28/2013
Subject: New file uploaded to AirborneWindEnergy
Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the AirborneWindEnergy
group.

File : /IFO - ENERGY - UNLIMITED/WO2010106382A3_Dobos_wind.pdf
Uploaded by : dobosg001 <dobosg001@yahoo.com Description : WO 2010/106382A2 PCT Patent Application

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AirborneWindEnergy/files/IFO%20-%20ENERGY%20-%20UNLIMITED/WO2010106382A3_Dobos_wind.pdf

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
Regards,

dobosg001 <dobosg001@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9756 From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com Date: 7/28/2013
Subject: New file uploaded to AirborneWindEnergy
Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the AirborneWindEnergy
group.

File : /IFO - ENERGY - UNLIMITED/Written Opinion of the International Search Authority.pdf
Uploaded by : dobosg001 <dobosg001@yahoo.com Description : Written Opinion of the Int. Search Authority

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AirborneWindEnergy/files/IFO%20-%20ENERGY%20-%20UNLIMITED/Written%20Opinion%20of%20the%20International%20Search%20Authority.pdf

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
Regards,

dobosg001 <dobosg001@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9757 From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com Date: 7/28/2013
Subject: New file uploaded to AirborneWindEnergy
Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the AirborneWindEnergy
group.

File : /IFO - ENERGY - UNLIMITED/ Int_Search_Report_WO2010_106382A3.pdf
Uploaded by : dobosg001 <dobosg001@yahoo.com Description : Int. Search Report

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AirborneWindEnergy/files/IFO%20-%20ENERGY%20-%20UNLIMITED/%20Int_Search_Report_WO2010_106382A3.pdf

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
Regards,

dobosg001 <dobosg001@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9758 From: Gabor Dobos Date: 7/28/2013
Subject: IFO - ENERGY - UNLIMITED
Dear Friends,

Some days ago I have received a good advice:  "It will be quite helpful if you send your technical ideas such as the Untethered AWES to the forum under a distinct subject so as to bring it to the attention of those who would be interested but are not following the thread of discussion under this heading"

I accept this advice and I chose as "distinct subject"  the title of our project: ifo-energy-unlimited.  Our project-website  www.ifo-energy-unlimited.com  contains a brief summary of my ideas. I have uploaded the following files to the Files area into the folder  "IFO-ENERGY-UNLIMITED" .  where  IFO (Identified Flying Object) is  (or rather :will be) the name of our energy harvesting gliders:
  • Un-tethered Autonomous Flying Wind Power Plant (Patent Application WO 2010/106382 A3)
  • Int_Search_Report_WO2010_106382A3.pdf
  • Written Opinion of the International Search Authority.pdf
I ask you  and those who are interested in this topic to follow it at this new subject. I look forward to your propositions and questions

Well, the thing begins with classification of the topic. Thank you JoeF for listing and short explanation of several types of  FFAWES. ( I would much appreciate receiving the link of the most relevant paper of each device) I have embedded JoeF's  list into a "family tree". It is free for extension in order to have an up-to-date full list.


Lift!

Gabor
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9759 From: David Lang Date: 7/28/2013
Subject: Re: IFO-ENERGY-UNLIMITED Re: [AWES] Re: Fwd: Energy-Harvesting
Gabor, 

I assure you that my question is sincere; While I may have intuitive opinions (not addressed in this response) regarding the answer to this question, I do not in fact know the answer.

I do not question the fact that endless free-soaring can be accomplished (JoeF, et al, certainly quote examples pertaining to this possibility). A seagull executing "boundary layer soaring" being a good example of such a process.

But let me explain more fully what I question. I will start by loosely defining a "free-flying energy cycle" as a type of repetitive maneuver that harvests energy, 

some of which
1. is used by the process itself to maintain an average position in space (ie. so as not to progressively loose altitude, or be swept down-stream like a boat in a river), 

and the remainder of which
2. is somehow stored on-board or directed earthward for practical use (net energy harvest)

Given the above preface, I would further define a "robust energy cycle" as one for which the "net energy harvest" is of sufficient magnitude to result in a competitive "Cost of Energy" (COE) and an attractive "Return on Investment" (ROI); in the current world energy market, largely driven by fossil fuel COE, it is my opinion that AWE must compete on the economic level to be accepted.

So the question is, what do you (or anyone) know about the net energy harvest of your invention? The same can be said for many of the proposed inventions that appear on this forum, so I would point out that this is not just a critique specific to your idea.

I further claim that since your invention :

A. involves a constantly changing dynamic flight profile in reaction to the varied winds (ie more specifically, the wind gradients) 
and 
B. must conduct maneuvers so as to avoid being swept evermore down-wind away from harvesting-station facilities, 

that a time-domain simulation of the method engaged in an energy harvesting maneuver in a "nominal design wind environment" is required in order to arrive at a believable assessment of the expected "net energy harvest" (ie. an assessment of how "robust" the energy cycle actually is).

Gabor, based on my long experience in the aerospace business, I strongly disagree with your following statement: 

"Of course, simulations are seeking a borderline case, to show the best or worse case. But in a practical case the practical question is not that…".  

I claim that traditionally in aerospace engineering, while simulation is indeed useful in exploring extreme and borderline situations (without risk of losing the vehicle by actual flight experimentation) it is first used to simply demonstrate the potential for successful nominal flight (energy harvest in your case)….this is what I contend is missing in your conjectures and is needed to convince investors that the method deserves actual development toward flight testingspecific .

Hope this clarifies my question.

Regards

DaveL


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9760 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/28/2013
Subject: Re: IFO-ENERGY-UNLIMITED Re: [AWES] Re: Fwd: Energy-Harvesting Glide
Re:   On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 10:48 AM, David Lang <SeattleDL@comcast.net
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9761 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2013
Subject: Re: IFO-ENERGY-UNLIMITED Re: [AWES] Re: Fwd: Energy-Harvesting
DaveL, Gabor,

The obvious early niche solution for keeping-place in AWE soaring is to locate in slope and thermal updrafts. If the glide speed exceeds the horizontal wind speed, and the sink rate is less than upward flow rate, then flight is sustainable, with any reserve capacity available to generate power. By merely assuming world-class up-drafts, one can confidently find that an energy-robust cycle is plausible, without needing difficult arguments from non-existent data.

Interestingly, a SLACK conductive-tether might be effective to transfer energy from the sort of heroic updrafts Gaddis experienced paragliding in the Himalayas, with 70mph updrafts in proximity to remote mountain populations. This instance alone might falsify the notion that all tethers are inferior compared to, say, aviation-qualified liquid-air generation. Ordinary "cloud-suck" under common cumulus is not so energetic, but is very common world-wide, and could be the initial basis for an FF AWE industry. Often thermals abound in low-wind, even in zero "prevailing-wind".

Unlimited DSing for utility-scale energy, as Gabor proposes, faces a long critical-path. JoeF naturally takes the long view, but DaveL is also quite right to question the current feasibility. There is not even one small prototype yet, which is a key milestone for Gabor and his R&D circle to work toward before he can convince a larger circle. If progess is slow, Gabor at least be reassured that this concept has been long understood by a few theorists, that he is not crazy nor alone in seeing the potential.

Here a fat stubby puffin shows how updraft-work  done, just imagine something like the AugustaWestland E-VTOL rotorcraft on the job- 

 

daveS



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9762 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/28/2013
Subject: Re: IFO - ENERGY - UNLIMITED

Offering next iteration: 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9763 From: David Lang Date: 7/28/2013
Subject: Re: IFO-ENERGY-UNLIMITED Re: [AWES] Re: Fwd: Energy-Harvesting Glide
JoeF,

Your conjectures entail a lot of "what if's" regarding global wind state, plentiful energy-reception stations, etc.

What I am getting at is much simpler and (I think) to the point regarding tetherless glider energy harvesting in general. Suppose you took a boundary-soaring seagull, which has the ability to demonstrate the maintenance of "average position" by using wind gradient……now, add a little drogue-chute to its tail……how might it fair under the influence of that additional drag….could it muster enough additional energy harvest from the wind gradient to still maintain average position?

My intuitive assessment of tetherless (ie. non-externally-equilibrated wind force) energy harvesting envisions that reverse-effective forces (ie. d'Alambert forces) are all you have
 at your disposal to "stand your ground against the wind" (ie. in order to force relative wind to persist at useful levels.....try harvesting energy in a uniform 200 kt jet stream with this scheme…..all you end up doing is being swept across the countryside),  equilibrating d'Alembert forces cannot exceed the product of your mass and acceleration; This is as opposed to other schemes that have an external "grip" on something, said external grip being: a "tether" (for most AWE schemes),   "keel/hull-drag" (for sailboats), "tires contacting ground-friction" (for a propeller driven vehicle that can move into the teeth of the wind", etc.

If we intend to be serious purveyors of AWE, we must believably quantify the amount of energy we imply that we can harvest.

DaveL



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9764 From: Bob Stuart Date: 7/28/2013
Subject: Re: IFO-ENERGY-UNLIMITED Re: [AWES] Re: Fwd: Energy-Harvesting Glide
I think we have to allow a downwind sweep to give these much chance at all.  The Albatross is a champion of dynamic soaring, and it follows the annual winds, at home anywhere, but at a fixed location on land only yearly.  

I note that Paul MacCready was a champion soaring pilot, but when his company set out to build a station-keeping aircraft as a robotic tall antenna, they went with solar.

While we are here, has anyone ever heard about an electric aircraft or helicopter being powered through a tether?  I'd be inclined to try high frequency AC through a single conductor, with a capacitor on board.  Combined with kiting, it might make a good way to keep an antenna up, at least.  With all that hardware in the air anyway, it could be a fly-gen with a ground battery bank, able to sustain itself in remote locations.  

Bob Stuart

On 28-Jul-13, at 1:58 PM, David Lang wrote:


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9765 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2013
Subject: AWE Encampment Report (High Load-Velocity isCrosswind Cableway)

 
At Austin KiteLab's Kite Farm, the forecast is "windy and hot", and the Encampment continues to intensify, as more people, kites, machines, and supplies come together. A treat has been to fly K-Power's superb OL kite made by KiteShip.

We have set a tensioned wire rope cableway crosswind between two anchors and begun to run a zipline trolley back and forth at high-speeds with a 3m2 parafoil equipped with a PTO. The peak load velocity is easily faster than the kite itself, by the confirmed "bow-string" effect. Careful videogrammetry should confirm bursts of with a roughly calculated average of around 10ms. The small steel trolley wheels are seemingly turning about 6000 rpm, which promises high generator efficiency. Next a series of flywheels and generators will be driven; its a slow one-step-at-a-time process, but high load-velocity is a key performance factor we now count on. Two beginning kiters, Dave and Jessie, who had never before flown a four-line parafoil, managed to operate the rig.

Safety is the serious reason progress must be slow. When the crosswind-cable rig first flew in high wind, I almost chopped off Ed's fingers on the cable, when a gust hit and the trolley shot at eyeblink speed at him. I twitched the handles in adrenalin-time and the cable trolley stopped just short of his eight lucky digits, to shoot bullet-like back across the wind. There is a tendency to lose caution in the excitement when an AWES experiment fires up, and its a good time to be extra wary of the "high" created by success. When Mothra1 first fired up last year, we acted like tweaking monkeys, rather than careful engineers.

KiteSat is undergoing upgrades for an upcoming altitude flight. The first flight ("Hello World" KiFi) last week was late in the day in dying wind with a small Delta already flying recruited as the lifter. This gave our partner, New Tech Kites of Austin, both the COTS turbine and kite honor, but the intended lifter is a larger Gomberg Falcon Delta (Gomberg is also a developmental partner).

Mono Mothras based on single giant tarps are in various states of completion. They will fly architectural experiments and AWTs. A pipeline of kitemotors will also debut as they emerge from the shops. A mini-smart grid with music-light show-loads (Rock-the-Kite) is also in process. Ed and Chase will be funneling the associated media onto the Net.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9766 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/28/2013
Subject: Sport traction kiting was to be in but now is out of Rio Olympics
Olympic exclusion doesn't faze top kiteboarders 


Windsurfing had been planned out while kiteboarding was to be in. 
Well, a reverse of that has occurred. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9767 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/28/2013
Subject: Electric aircraft driven via electric conducting line to ground powe
AWES reversal. 

BobS just posted a question about having power source on the ground and sending electricity up a line to drive electric motored aircraft. 
This topic thread invites exploration of such reverse AWES.   Examples, patents, applications ---past and potential. 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9768 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/28/2013
Subject: Re: Electric aircraft driven via electric conducting line to ground
Reference for the rule book just mentioned: 

================

Safety note:                           
1. Humans operating conductive tethers will do well to clear designs with electrical engineers and atmospheric scientists. 
2. Electrically conducting lines may become the path for electricity from environmental electrical sources. 
3. Electrically conducting lines may become a path for lightning. 
4. Humans may be injured or killed from using electrically conducting lines improperly. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9769 From: christopher carlin Date: 7/28/2013
Subject: Re: Electric aircraft driven via electric conducting line to ground
This may have been postulated before but feeding the energy up a microwave beam or laser beam is a lot lighter and more flexible and at the energy levels required for a HALE vehicle probably safe and within current technology capabilities. Depending upon what you're trying to do say 20KW would be quite useful.

Regards,

Chris

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9770 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/28/2013
Subject: Re: Electric aircraft driven via electric conducting line to ground
A patent mentioned for other purpose has some instruction for this topic thread: 

Arthur M. Young instructed one format for energizing the rotary-blade kite-helicopter: 


Full patent, if wanted:  http://www.google.com/patents/US2429502
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9771 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/28/2013
Subject: Young's teaching on phased-pumping of rotary-wing kite
Has anyone demonstrated what Young described in his patent text about phased pumping of tether to keep VAWT kite in flight?
Studies on the matter?


Clips from the patent:

 


Fig. 7:

Then another means with phased tugging and one-way ratcheting:   Fig. 8.


 

Demonstration of the various phased-tugging means with video disclosure along with specifications and conditions of the flying would probably forward AWES arts.    We already have video of  phased tugging of non-rotary wings for sustaining flights.   As yet, I have not seen Young's teachings on this matter put into practice.      Anyone?    ~JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9772 From: Gabor Dobos Date: 7/28/2013
Subject: IFO-ENERGY-UNLIMITED -- Follow the winds --

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9773 From: Doug Date: 7/29/2013
Subject: Re: Rotary-blade kites
Hey Roddy there are two kinds of wind energy inventors:
Those who make power, and those who don't...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9774 From: Doug Date: 7/29/2013
Subject: Re: Flying electric generators with clean air rotors
Hey the essence of a SuperTurbine(R) - fresh air to each rotor - who knew? I never saw a problem with fresh air to transverse rotors anyway. With all that effort over so many years, I don't see why SkyWindPower doesn't have something flying. Their general idea seems conceptually straightforward.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9775 From: Doug Date: 7/29/2013
Subject: Re: NASA Technology Transfer Opportunity:
I think the first application of it should be to control a sailboat.
The power can be produced by either an onboard underwater propeller or by reeling the mooring line in and out from shore.

That applies the two most popular AWE design directions to existing offshore wind energy, a known art, that uses a rotor. In this context one can judge and compare the relative efficiencies and appropriateness of the 3 technologies: crosswind-craft-with-onboard-propeller, reeling a mooring line in-and-out, or using a spinning rotor with blades.
:)
Doug S.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9776 From: Doug Date: 7/29/2013
Subject: Re: Confirm AWEIA 2014 rumor
I used to attend every annual "Windpower" conference sponsored by AWEA. The thought was "How could I afford to miss the most important event in wind energy every year?".

My first Windpower Conference found me excited to meet all the wind energy researchers at NREL, so we could compare notes regarding all the advanced types of wind turbines they must be working on.

When I finally found the NREL booth, it was probably the least impressive booth at the whole show. The small NREL booth featured a few tables with pamphlets, a couple posters, and a 46-inch diameter Air-403 turbine on a table, just to show something wind-related.

The wind researchers I sought to meet were seldom to be seen, usually attending "breakout sessions" and seminars. There was a nice lady with glasses who was in charge of the NREL booth. She was there about half the time. Otherwise the NREL booth was mostly unmanned - a mini-ghost-town in a sea of activity.

Still I thought it was important to fly across the country, rent a car and a hotel, put on some nice clothes and obediently pick my way across unfamiliar cities in rush-hour traffic so I could find parking, then line up to input my information into a computer terminal, so I could pay my share of the expenses of this obligatory mega-show of enthusiasm for wind power.

And I did make contacts. I got to know the chief engineer for GE Wind for example. Their head of anemometry had been conducting the CEC-sponsored testing of the first SuperTurbine(R) prototypes. This chief engineer told me I would have to show a lower COE (cost of energy) and they would be happy to adopt my technology. Was this new information? No, show a lower COE and the world will beat a path to your door. Duh, right? I felw across the country to learn that? Well some lessons are simple yet hard to grasp.

I noticed Vestas and all the rest were quite busy having meetings with windfarm developers. While their junior level engineers had some enthusiasm for new ideas like SuperTurbine(R), for most industry players, there was not a lot of extra time for fooling around. They were in business, with meetings scheduled and deals to make.

I began to notice that every year the Koreans would be promoting goofy vertical-axis multi-colored machines with cloth sails, or sideways versions thereof. There was always some Professor Crackpot promoting a 100% solidity vertical-axis metal machine with maglev bearings to add 1% to a machine that gave up 99% of its power anyway... a demo proving it could actually spin(!), powered by an electric fan - quite a comedy.

The fact that promoters of such goofy ideas were willing to spend even more money by renting a booth and embarrass themselves explaining how a 100% solidity vertical-axis solid metal maglev machine was the next step past the current GE machines made good entertainment for the rest of us. I think it made us feel better that we were wasting less money than them, and of course it made us feel like our basic knowledge of wind energy was difficult to obtain by seeing people who could seemingly never "get it" no matter how much time and money they spent. We saw these inventors as misguided people wasting money by traveling across the world for our entertainment. A circus of wind turbine design goofiness.

I was always hoping to find more sources for blades, generators, etc., but it seemed that I came away disappointed every year. I remember thinking how if I was not at the show, I could be spending the time and money building turbines - imagine that!

There was a "small-wind" area at the Windpower show every year. I had sort of fallen into the "small-wind" camp, since it's easier to prove a new design concept at a smaller scale, and the leader in small wind was the Bergey turbine. We have a 10 kW Bergey on a 120-foot tower powering this place for example. I got to know Mike Bergey, the owner, and some of his engineering staff too.

Well one year I planned a multi-day trip across the country, had renderings printed out, packed up all my stuff, bought my tickets, flew into a strange city, got my hotel, then woke up to fight my way through the smog and rush-hour traffic of that strange city, found the convention center, found where to park, paid my $20 parking fee, and started walking, in my dress shows, carrying all kinds of crap. I finally got to the point where I could wait in line to enter my info into a terminal, pay my entry fee, then at last get inside the gigantic trade show.

I searched for the "small-wind" section, and when I finally stumbled across it after a few hours, I noticed there was no Bergey booth. I had to check several times and ask a few people "Hey have you seen the Bergey Booth? Has anyone seen Mike Bergey? I slowly realized that Bergey, the industry leader for small wind, did not even come to this trade show. No booth. No turbine on display. No Mike Bergey. I was in disbelief. How could Bergey, the market leader, NOT be at the AWEA WindPower show?

Well it slowly dawned on me: Bergey as a company probably had something better to do. Building turbines perhaps? Yup I realized that for one year at least, they had decided all that expense and time spent, all that focus taken away from production, was apparently not worth it.

I realized that wind energy is just one more business. Either one is in the business or they are not, and all the trade shows in the world won't change that, except to take even MORE time away from doing it. I realized it is NOT mandatory to attend every trade show. I started to notice that successful wind energy people, the ones you never hear about, were attending OTHER trade shows, where they could find the components they needed to DO wind energy.

I realized that for all the big companies making big deals, the show was important. And for newbies with colorful cloth-sails traveling upwind and downwind, maglev bearings and the like, a trade show was an indispensable part of their illusion and delusions that they were "doing something" even if it was just to explain their dubious theories to an endless stream of people who actually understand wind energy and are amused at how badly they had missed the target.

One year it finally dawned on me that, trade show or no trade show, I was either going to build, test, develop, and perfect one or more models of wind energy devices, or not. No trade show was going to help much, it seemed. In my case it seemed that every trade show was really just one more way to spend a lot of time and money for nothing, starting with the days of preparation to even pack and get tickets and plan the trip, ending with the lost time and money that took me away from any way I could actually make a difference, placing me instead into the all-talk mode where I could spend a lot of money to spend all day yakking it up to end up with a pair of sore feet in a strange motel room figuring out how much money I was wasting and how much stuff I needed to get done that I could not get done in a strange city in a rented motel room.

Knowing this I still felt compelled to attend The first AWE conference, especially considering I still had the 2008 Popular Science Invention of the Year Sky Serpent sitting there ready to fly for a few dollars worth of helium, that it all deployed from my old van with the test rack, and that the conference was in California so I could drive that van there and deploy the demo easily. How could I miss it?

But by the next conference AWE had already degenerated to an empty talkfest with no models flown and wannabe "too-big-to-fail" "players" like Honeywell who had shown an inability to produce a decent small turbine already, or NASA, who could just "credential" their way through, while announcing that their key advantage was not actually having to show any progress - nothingness masquerading as somethingness.

Still, how could I not attend - again, it was right here in California - I could drive there! The best part for me was to see a few cool people like Joe F., and to visit the nice town of Stanford, and have some pizza. I left trying to figure out why almost nobody seemed to be pursuing any of the simple ways to do AWE. The most memorable technological highlights of the conference were the dark, stealthy-looking, Heinlein-esque, jet-fighterish Honewell rendering of a high-speed tethered kite, suitable for a 1970's magazine cover, and the promise of NASA to get no results, because of their advantage of not having to show any results, to get paid anyway.

Anyway trade shows and conferences are nice, especially for a robust industry where there are lots of deals to be made. But for R & D, now that we have the internet, I'm not sure how valuable conferences are, as currently configured at least. Seems to me a "fly-in" aspect would at least keep it a bit more interesting. I don't see much further value in hearing people talk about their theories at this point. Either they have the ability to do wind energy, or they don't - let's see what you got!
:)
Doug S.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9777 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2013
Subject: Synchronized Looping Foils under Mothras

 
An array of identical looping-foils attached to a cross-wind string mesh will tend to synchronize* and drive the mesh circularly in-plane; with a phase cycle that can be tapped for energy by the tri-tether (non-torsion) transmission method.

A Mothra could host two such looping-foil arrays in mirror-symmetry, as a balanced passive dynamicly-stable AWES..


CC BY NC SA


* In a linked array, leading foils contribute extra towing energy to a lagging foils, creating an averaged output.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9778 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2013
Subject: Reminder about the critical-challenges of rigid-wing AWE

 The popular press, and even supposed "wind-experts", often assert that rigid wing AWES developers (Makani, Joby, Aympx, etc.) somehow have a lead or advantage over cheap fabric wing concepts. Not properly accounted for in this simplistic hype-driven view are the unsolved killer-problems with rigid wings-

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9779 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/29/2013
Subject: Re: IFO-ENERGY-UNLIMITED -- Follow the winds --
Gabor, 
          We might be having a nuance language misunderstanding.   Your "on the contrary" is actually not contrary to the meaning intended in my sentence. When I wrote "does not care" about "change"   ... I am intending an emphases that your proposed method is happy with being able to follow the changes of location of a jet stream; such is the nuance intended in "does not care"...that is, in other words, your proposed method can comfortably handle the  the changes of location of a jet stream; such nuance coincides with what I did read in your disclosure, contrary to your suggestion of a non-reading.    I read and also sided with you; the dynamically soaring sailplane intended may stay aware of the changes of location of a jet stream and handle that just fine (assuming good weather awareness).  Maybe the phrasing is an idiom; "a person may not care whether a room is painted green or yellow or red----the use of the room is not color-dependent for that person.  Similarly, your proposed method can handle changes of location of a jet stream ... that is, "does not care of the location-flavor of the the jet stream, as the method does not depend on the location of favorable wind structures.      Thank you for wrestling with this; I was seeing my input as being on your side.  
    Best, 
     JoeF  

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9780 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/29/2013
Subject: Re: Rotary-blade kites || occupying inventors
Doug, 
       There are other ways to sector wind-energy inventors: 
Those who instruct an invention that holds claims that are workable, 
and those who instruct an "invention" that holds claims that are not workable. 

Both kinds of inventors on that sectioning provide potential blessings to the program. 
The claims that are workable become available for others that may build and use the invention.
The claims that are not workable become matter for discernment that may lead to noted instruction that may keep others in the future from wasting time and funds. 

I would not personally want to slow a fruitful inventor of the first kind by having him or her be builder, tester, seller, treasurer, persuader, inspector, user, etc.  Let such inventor keep inventing. Let others of other varied talent fulfill the other offices of flowering the program. 

~JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9781 From: Gabor Dobos Date: 7/29/2013
Subject: Re: IFO-ENERGY-UNLIMITED -- Follow the winds --
JoeF,

    Thank you very much for the English lesson, and I beg your pardon because of having suspicions about whether you did read my patent application. I have no justification. I can only hope that you have seen smile after proposing you to read the claims.

But there is at least one beneefit of the story:  the capability of IFO to follow the winds have been discussed in detail. 

Thank you very much again,

Gabor



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9782 From: Doug Date: 7/30/2013
Subject: Re: Reminder about the critical-challenges of rigid-wing AWE
Solar is already eclipsing wind energy in many ways. That should light a fire under wind energy - we gotta compete with panels priced far below $1/Watt.
Not sure where people get the notion that space-based solar would be cheaper than land-based. Professor Crackpot? How much per Watt does the price of a panel in orbit, with a way to get the power down to Earth, and the Earth-based receiving station, compare to the cheap solar panel in your hand? I guess it could use the same microwave power-transmission system that Wayne German insisted was the answer for AWE, right? At this point I know Professor Crackpot by the smell.

Soft Wings in AWE: All I can say is, as tempting and attractive as soft wings are, for so many reasons, if you go back a couple years, people like me with wind energy experience explained how regular wind turbines had traditionally used cloth blades for the first 2900 years and eventually felt the need to transition to hard blades in the last 100 years when electric wind turbines emerged. I explained how Makani etc. would find this out for themselves in due time, which they now have. Dave S. has not found this out yet, but that is because we are blogging rather than building.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9783 From: Doug Date: 7/30/2013
Subject: Re: NASA Technology Transfer Opportunity:
I thought of a new use for NASA's new camera-monitoring of fluid-borne craft (such as a crosswind-traveling moored sailboat): Measure the foreshortening of a sailboat mast as it approaches the horizon. By comparing the apparent height with the distance traveled, NASA could prove the Earth is round. Yes, yes this was already done hundreds of years ago, as we learned in 3rd grade,
but:
1) That fact that something has been done for hundreds of years doesn't stop most wind energy "researchers" from claiming it as a new idea and pursuing it;
2) It has never been done automatically using a CCD camera and a computer.
3) It doesn't produce any power, which fits perfectly with most supposed-AWE research agendas.
:)
Doug S.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9784 From: Doug Date: 7/30/2013
Subject: Re: IFO - ENERGY - UNLIMITED
Gabor:
I'd recommend you eliminate the airplanes and airport at first and see if you can make an economical business out of charging batteries from the grid then discharging them back into that same grid. I think you'll find that, for now at least, it will be far cheaper to use grid power to charge your batteries than using gliders. Still, such a business may be only marginally successful since batteries are expensive with a limited capacity and life cycle.
This idea reminds me of Ee-Stor that wanted to replace powerlines with trucks carrying batteries long distance. In this case it's airplanes. Mmmm Hmmmm...
Remember the goal: Lower cost of energy. The goal is NOT higher cost. It is lower cost.
:)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9785 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/30/2013
Subject: Peter Lynn and his ideas on kite power for commercial shipping
Intro clip:

Kite Power for Commercial Shipping. 

Can kites be economically viable for propelling commercial shipping in mainstream applications?


In my view there are two chances of this happening in the foreseeable future: Zero, none, and a teensy possibility that indirect kite propulsion by way of on-board kite generated electricity driving a conventional propeller may work. Whoops that's three, but you'll get the drift


===============================

Points he brings up may be discussed. See his full article.  

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9786 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/30/2013
Subject: Giant kites of Guatemala
Some of the giant kites of Guatemala deliberately generate sound among other things. 

General study:  GiantKitesGUATEMALA 

A key article: 
The Giant Kites of Guatemala
By Ali Fujino and Ben Ruhe
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9787 From: Harry Valentine Date: 7/30/2013
Subject: Re: Peter Lynn and his ideas on kite power for commercial shipping
I've been doing research on this myself. At the present time, several bulk carriers (with flat decks) are being assisted by airfoil-sails attached to masts mounted on the deck .  . . these ships sail parallel to the direction of the trade winds.

Kite-pulled ships will also sail in the direction of the trade winds .  . . there is a physical limit to the size of such a ship. Kites may be able to assist the propulsion of smaller container ships that sail select routes .  .  . the biggest container ships on the ocean use engines of up to 50MW output.

Windmill driven ships (wind turbine driving propeller) are able to sail directly into the wind .  . . at higher speed than sail powered vessels that tack the wind.

There is a form of wind power that is proving viable . .  .   wind blowing over water creates choppy water and waves .  .  . there are small vessels powered by waves (using a wave-activated fluke for propulsion) that have sailed at 6-knots to 8-knots directly into the wind .  . . even faster than VAWT's driving submerged props that push vessels at 2 to 3-knots directly into the wind direction.


Harry



To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: joefaust333@gmail.com
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 01:41:52 +0000
Subject: [AWES] Peter Lynn and his ideas on kite power for commercial shipping

 
Intro clip:

Kite Power for Commercial Shipping. 

Can kites be economically viable for propelling commercial shipping in mainstream applications?


In my view there are two chances of this happening in the foreseeable future: Zero, none, and a teensy possibility that indirect kite propulsion by way of on-board kite generated electricity driving a conventional propeller may work. Whoops that's three, but you'll get the drift


===============================

Points he brings up may be discussed. See his full article.  


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9788 From: Gabor Dobos Date: 7/31/2013
Subject: IFO-ENERGY-UNLIMITED Re: Just add a RAT
 Joe,
thank you very much for your kind sentences below. Your notes are not only for you but also for me interesting and important.
Hoping you don't care, please find some comments embedded to your text in that color.

Regarding patent issues I am going to write some remarks. You will receive them soon.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9789 From: Gabor Dobos Date: 7/31/2013
Subject: Re: IFO - ENERGY - UNLIMITED -- Energy storage
Doug,
of course I did it, well before your advice.  (I am engaged in energy storage since more than 40 years....)
 I have to say, you are right and you are wrong at  the same time.  The solution is not very simple, but it exists.

I hesitate to put the solution of this contradiction into this collective brain-storming. I don't see the solution of IP-right protection.

The classical way, see: patenting, I cannot finance
If I posted the solution in this Forum, I have no doubt that several members of this Forum would say that it contains no inventive step. If so, here is the opportunity to tell us  a world-old but functionable solution  now.
Regards,

Gabor