Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                           AWES9539to9588 Page 88 of 440.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9539 From: Bob Stuart Date: 7/10/2013
Subject: Re: A problem with energy transfer by longitudinal oscillations

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9540 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/10/2013
Subject: AWEIA chapters throughout Africa

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9541 From: Muzhichkov Date: 7/10/2013
Subject: Re: A problem with energy transfer by longitudinal oscillations

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9542 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/10/2013
Subject: Re: A problem with energy transfer by longitudinal oscillations

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9543 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2013
Subject: Purported Open Invitation to Berlin Conference Fly-In (link)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9544 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/10/2013
Subject: Re: AWEIA chapters throughout continents and oceans

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9545 From: David Lang Date: 7/10/2013
Subject: Re: A problem with energy transfer by longitudinal oscillations

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9546 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/10/2013
Subject: Berlin_Tempelhof_Airport

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9547 From: Alexander Bormann Date: 7/10/2013
Subject: Re: Berlin Conference AWES Demo Confirmation

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9548 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/10/2013
Subject: Re: Berlin Tempelhof field-park-former airport

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9549 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2013
Subject: Re: A problem with energy transfer by longitudinal oscillations

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9550 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2013
Subject: Re: Berlin_Tempelhof_Airport

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9551 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/10/2013
Subject: Re: Berlin Tempelhof field-park-former airport

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9552 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/10/2013
Subject: AWEIA-Canada and its Kite Energy Associations

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9553 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/10/2013
Subject: AWEIA-Germany

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9554 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/10/2013
Subject: Dan Tracy is back at some traction items

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9555 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2013
Subject: Makani Confidential

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9556 From: Muzhichkov Date: 7/11/2013
Subject: Re: Berlin Tempelhof field-park-former airport

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9557 From: Muzhichkov Date: 7/11/2013
Subject: Re: Berlin Tempelhof field-park-former airport

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9558 From: hardensoftintl Date: 7/11/2013
Subject: Re: Berlin Tempelhof field-park-former airport

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9559 From: hardensoftintl Date: 7/11/2013
Subject: Re: Berlin Tempelhof field-park-former airport

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9560 From: Muzhichkov Date: 7/11/2013
Subject: Re: A problem with energy transfer by longitudinal oscillations

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9561 From: Muzhichkov Date: 7/11/2013
Subject: Re: A problem with energy transfer by longitudinal oscillations

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9562 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/11/2013
Subject: Re: A problem with energy transfer by longitudinal oscillations

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9563 From: Doug Date: 7/11/2013
Subject: Re: A problem with energy transfer... "EnergySailboatSystems"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9564 From: Muzhichkov Date: 7/11/2013
Subject: Re: A problem with energy transfer by longitudinal oscillations

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9565 From: Doug Date: 7/11/2013
Subject: Re: Makani Confidential

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9566 From: Doug Date: 7/11/2013
Subject: Re: Berlin Tempelhof field-park-former airport

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9567 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/11/2013
Subject: Kited-boat energy systems

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9568 From: dave santos Date: 7/11/2013
Subject: Doug's Aviation Question

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9569 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/11/2013
Subject: Balloons on Mars

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9570 From: dave santos Date: 7/11/2013
Subject: Longitudinal-Transverse Wave Interaction Similarity Case (Luthier's

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9571 From: roderickjosephread Date: 7/11/2013
Subject: 3d kixels

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9572 From: Muzhichkov Date: 7/11/2013
Subject: Re: Longitudinal-Transverse Wave Interaction Similarity Case (Luthie

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9573 From: Muzhichkov Date: 7/12/2013
Subject: Re: Longitudinal-Transverse Wave Interaction Similarity Case (Luthie

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9574 From: roderickjosephread Date: 7/12/2013
Subject: Re: A problem with energy transfer... "EnergySailboatSystems"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9575 From: Bob Stuart Date: 7/12/2013
Subject: Re: A problem with energy transfer... "EnergySailboatSystems"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9576 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2013
Subject: Re: Longitudinal-Transverse Wave Interaction Similarity Case (Luthie

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9577 From: Rod Read Date: 7/12/2013
Subject: Re: A problem with energy transfer... "EnergySailboatSystems"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9578 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2013
Subject: Re: A problem with energy transfer... "EnergySailboatSystems"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9579 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2013
Subject: Kitellite and KiteFi Trademark Notice

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9580 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2013
Subject: "KiteSat" reserved to Public Domain

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9581 From: Gabor Dobos Date: 7/13/2013
Subject: Re: AWEC 2013 - Once more!

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9582 From: hardensoftintl Date: 7/13/2013
Subject: Re: AWEC 2013 - Once more!

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9583 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/13/2013
Subject: Lifted Loop Ladder Set Vertically

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9584 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/13/2013
Subject: WPI gets grant for undersea 'kite' project

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9585 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/13/2013
Subject: Short video, interesting close up

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9586 From: Gabor Dobos Date: 7/13/2013
Subject: Re: AWEC 2013 - Once more! - 2

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9587 From: Bob Stuart Date: 7/13/2013
Subject: Re: WPI gets grant for undersea 'kite' project

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9588 From: hardensoftintl Date: 7/13/2013
Subject: Re: AWEC 2013 - Once more! - 2




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9539 From: Bob Stuart Date: 7/10/2013
Subject: Re: A problem with energy transfer by longitudinal oscillations
This is indeed a problem.  In bicycling, the pulsing nature of the power input is usually dealt with by carefully maximizing rigidity.  Only a few riders are able to learn a special technique that benefits from a lighter, springier frame, and it does not maximize power, just endurance.
Small kites can be added along the length of a tether to reduce sag, but line momentum, sag and stretch must be calculated and included in the totals for each stroke.  The kite has to waste some motion just to generate force at the ground before it can pull. The math favors very long strokes, and destroys long-tether systems based on fast oscillation.

BTW, there is an interesting study at http://www.wimp.com/slinkyanswer/  If you let a slinky hang, and drop it, the bottom coil does not move until the coil collapses.

Bob Stuart

On 10-Jul-13, at 2:29 AM, Muzhichkov wrote:


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9540 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/10/2013
Subject: AWEIA chapters throughout Africa

 AWEIA-Africa:

There are spectacular visions for AWE in the skies over Africa. The unfolding K3 era for work-kite systems will have distinctive play throughout the countries of Africa. Task fulfillment and energy production in K3 will add a high dimension to bless the lives of millions of people.  We foresee initiative from each country.   

We are seeking AWE RAD leaders for furthering the AWEIA chapter program in his or her country. The founding persons need not live in the capital cities shown.  Announce yourselves and keep us all informed. 

 Algeria --- Algiers    AWEIA chapter
 Angola --- Luanda         AWEIA chapter
 Benin --- Porto-Novo    AWEIA chapter
 Botswana --- Gaborone    AWEIA chapter
 Burkina Faso --- Ouagadougou    AWEIA chapter
 Burundi --- Bujumbura    AWEIA chapter
 Cameroon --- Yaounde        AWEIA chapter
 Cape Verde--- Praia        AWEIA chapter
 Central African Rep--- Bangui    AWEIA chapter
 Chad --- N'Djamena    AWEIA chapter
 Congo Republic of the --- Brazzaville    AWEIA chapter
 Dem.Rep.Congo(Zaire)    AWEIA chapter
 Democratic Republic of the--- Kinshasa    AWEIA chapter
 Djibouti --- Djibouti    AWEIA chapter
 Egypt --- Cairo    AWEIA chapter
 Equatorial Guinea--- Malabo    AWEIA chapter
 Eritrea --- Asmara    AWEIA chapter
 Ethiopia --- Addis Ababa    AWEIA chapter
 Gabon --- Libreville    AWEIA chapter
 Gambia --- Banjul    AWEIA chapter
 Ghana --- Accra    AWEIA chapter
 Guinea Bissau --- Bissau    AWEIA chapter
 Guinea --- Conakry    AWEIA chapter
 Kenya --- Nairobi    AWEIA chapter
 Lesotho --- Maseru    AWEIA chapter
 Liberia --- Monrovia    AWEIA chapter
 Libya--- Tripoli    AWEIA chapter
 Madagascar ---Antananarivo    AWEIA chapter
 Malawi--- Lilongwe    AWEIA chapter
 Mali ---Bamko    AWEIA chapter
 Mauritania ---Nouakchott    AWEIA chapter
 Mauritius--- Port Louis    AWEIA chapter
 Morocco--- Rabat    AWEIA chapter
 Mozambique --- Maputo    AWEIA chapter
 Namibia ---Windhoek    AWEIA chapter
 Niger --- Niamey    AWEIA chapter
 Nigeria--- Abuja    AWEIA chapter
 Rwanda--- Kigali    AWEIA chapter
 Senegal--- Dakar    AWEIA chapter
 Seychelles--- Victoria    AWEIA chapter
 Sierra Leone--- Freetown    AWEIA chapter
 Somalia --- Mogadishu    AWEIA chapter
 South Africa--- Cape Town     AWEIA chapter
 Sudan --- Khartoum    AWEIA chapter
 Swaziland--- Mbabana    AWEIA chapter
 Tanzania --- Dar es Salaam    AWEIA chapter
 Togo--- Lome    AWEIA chapter
 Tunisia --- Tunis    AWEIA chapter
 Uganda --- Kampala    AWEIA chapter
 Zambia --- Lusaka    AWEIA chapter
 Zimbabwe--- Harare    AWEIA chapter

File:Africa (orthographic projection).svg

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9541 From: Muzhichkov Date: 7/10/2013
Subject: Re: A problem with energy transfer by longitudinal oscillations
A solution may be indead with using a set of kites like chinesen drag kite. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkDn_jXDXwE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9542 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/10/2013
Subject: Re: A problem with energy transfer by longitudinal oscillations
Support: 

giant chinese dragon kite newport 2012 


[Slightly off topic: VERY long stroke longitudinal production via use of longitudinal tether loop in the "fan-belt methods?]
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9543 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2013
Subject: Purported Open Invitation to Berlin Conference Fly-In (link)
A strange ambiguous survey purported to be tur official Berlin Fly-In invitation, although no wording in it states it to be so...
 
 
Reiner Lemoine Institut undertakes a survey regarding
the “AWE: Risks and Safety”.
Christiane Schmidt is responsible for the survey and
will present the results at AWEC 2013.
We kindly ask all companies which have
an AWE-prototype or currently building one
to fill out the questionnaire:
 
 
I don't see how this can be credibly defended as the Fly-In announcement and invitation in response to the long-standing public call to AWEC for an open flying event at our conferences. Soon we will know if a select inside circle enjoyed a more reasonable friendly timely invitation process.
Decide for yourself if this is a proper invite by BHWE/AWEC Berlin Conference organizers-
Note to Organizers- The safety criteria omits key risk-factors, like max-velocity and dropped-object hazard (terminal velocity).
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9544 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/10/2013
Subject: Re: AWEIA chapters throughout continents and oceans
Inside each country or nation-state may be companies, clubs, or individuals that form kite-energy associations (KEAs) or entities for their local or special interests. Demarcations may be county-wide, city-wide, institution-wide, or private or public corporation-wide. Those KEAs  may join their national or oceanic AWEIA organization.  Ethics, safety-critical information, policy, technology, experience, supplier information, opportunity channels, etc. may be shared in orderly ways. 

Kite Energy Association of Africa  (KEA Africa) is invited to be a member of AWEIA International
Kite Energy Association of Australia (KEA Australia)    is invited to be a member of AWEIA International
Kite Energy Association of Europe  (KEA Europe) is invited to be a member of AWEIA International
Kite Energy Association of Asia  (KEA Asia)    is invited to be a member of AWEIA International
Kite Energy Association of North America (KEA North America)    is invited to be a member of AWEIA International
Kite Energy Association of South America (KEA South America)    is invited to be a member of AWEIA International
Kite Energy Association of Antarctica (KEA Antartica)     is invited to be a member of AWEIA International
Kite Energy Association of the Pacific Ocean (KEA Pacific Ocean)    is invited to be a member of AWEIA International
Kite Energy Association of the Atlantic Ocean (KEA Atlantic Ocean)    is invited to be a member of AWEIA International
Kite Energy Association of the Arctic  (KEA Arctic)    is invited to be a member of AWEIA International
Kite Energy Association of the Indian Ocean (KEA Indian Ocean)    is invited to be a member of AWEIA International
Kite Energy Association of the Southern Ocean (KEA Southern Ocean)    is invited to be a member of AWEIA International
Kite Energy Association of the Gulf of Mexico (KEA Gulf of Mexico) is invited to be a member of AWEIA International

Within each nation there may be KEAs that join their state or national associations. The entities may be clubs, companies, corporations, or individuals. 
Example one nation USA: 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9545 From: David Lang Date: 7/10/2013
Subject: Re: A problem with energy transfer by longitudinal oscillations

All of these considerations are standard simulation attributes and investigatory subjects for those engaged in serious engineering design of AWE systems, and represent no particularly inscrutable issues.

DaveL
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9546 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/10/2013
Subject: Berlin_Tempelhof_Airport
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9547 From: Alexander Bormann Date: 7/10/2013
Subject: Re: Berlin Conference AWES Demo Confirmation
Hi Dave,

I was traveling last weeks noticing your mail, but not tending to reply before asking the team.

First of all i have to admit that i have enjoyed your contributions at the AWEC especially your presentation in Chico is still very present. Thank you for that.

In your current mailing i read assumptions, which are confusing me and i find difficult to embrace and not comfortable to reply.

To put it clear:

We are not able to come to NYC.
EnerKite is just another equal participant of the AWEC.
Nor EnerKíte nor myself are in charge of the FlyIn.
My position in the committee is not related to EnerKíte put to 20 years of experience in R&D in wind engineering.
As member of the committee i did objectively reviewed and evaluated possible contributions.
The former airport of Tempelhof is public space, You can use it as all other Berliners do - flying kites.
For the AWEC please completely fill in the survey with the link you already have recieved. (Are links on websites to be called secrets?)
From my information, there is no restriction to participants, if they can meet the level of safety which is requiered with the permission.

Please respect that my answers may come with a certain delay or even not - if I'm busy or no suitable answer is available.

Best regards,
Alexander.


Am 09.07.2013 um 20:55 schrieb dave santos:

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9548 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/10/2013
Subject: Re: Berlin Tempelhof field-park-former airport
How I missed knowing  until this morning that Tempelhof will be used for kite-energy demonstrations in September is not a deep mystery; I miss many things; but the eight hours per day I spend on kite-energy matters makes it puzzling to me how I missed that matter; I really care about such matters, but stumbled on this factoid.  Guido committed many months ago to keep me updated, but even though I have 100% search over my emails, "Tempelhof" shows only in this morning's email as copies of the DaveS and now AlexB notes of our kite-energy AWES forum posts.  Today is July 10, 2013.  

Kite flying at Tempelhof former-airport field often occurs, even many kite-power operations, without individuals having to show insurance coverage; they just go to the field and fly the kite systems ... converting the wind energy to their chosen purposes that vary widely from land boarding, arm lifting, message dropping, meditation, fast-motion stunting, and more.  Such occurs at thousands of parks around the world.

~JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9549 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2013
Subject: Re: A problem with energy transfer by longitudinal oscillations
Alex, no tensile energy-transfer mode is perfect, but longitudinal oscillation is one of the best (with some transverse-mode dispersion always present).
 
The heuristic trick is that our low-stretch energy-transfer line (like UHMWPE) must be pre-tensioned properly, so as to transmit fundamental-harmonic longitudinal waves at high efficiency (at lowest elastic-loss, with highest internal speed-of-sound), but without ever exceeding max working loads. Tuned line-tensioners and shock-absorbers (snubbers) are our standard means to do this (as band-pass filters). We have scarcely tapped the potential of this sort of Low-Complexity "resonant" rope-driving.
 
As we megascale our AWES, the mighty "hawsers" employed enable increased distances for high-efficiency energy transfer (up to a generous upper limit well within our optimal wind flight ceilings). Contriving to tilt the energy-transfer line a bit to windward helps eliminate dispersion, by cancelling the gravity catenary with some self-lift.
 
DaveL can in fact numerically simulate ideal tunings that predict high-efficiency, as well as poor tunings; given simple starting assumptions. Nothing is more common in AWE empirical experimentation than to wonder where the power is, when tunings are wrong. One must carefully search for optimal tuning, which varies according to conditions.
 
 
 
 
 




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9550 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2013
Subject: Re: Berlin_Tempelhof_Airport
JoeF,
 
We did at least note Tempelhof, if not by name, by fame, as the center of our sort of kite culture in Berlin. Recall that KiteLab Austin this Spring bought a whole quiver of NASA NPWs from the Tempelhof kite-freak subculture.
 
Perhaps we could gather a hundred or so kiteboarders to pull a gangline to the also ganged AWES base-stations, and their kites, and easily show the superior power, by land-footprint and airspace, of densely aggregated arrays-
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9551 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/10/2013
Subject: Re: Berlin Tempelhof field-park-former airport
Similarly, 
             It is a puzzle why Guido's world map of kite-energy research and development entities neglected  KiteEnergySystems
and others like:  KiteLab, Illwaco, WA
KiteLab, Austin, TX
KiteLab Group, 
Kite Energy (Wayne German)
KiteShip (Culp)
KitePowerResearch
and  and others. 

but included Magenn.

AWEIA International is needed to overcome such missing patterns. 
AWEIA-Europe  or  Kite Energy Association of Europe
and German Kite Energy Association  as member of AWEIA International 
may be needed to wrap the AWEIA ethics around events and communications that highly affect the growth of the kite-energy AWES industry and community. Some prized method may be sitting in the realm of just one individual; may we find ways to gather robustly, openly, and with high transparency of interests.  

Please send the name of any person, entity, company, research center, organization that should be on that page of stakeholders. Thanks. 

Potential investors, we hope you will become informed about the entire set of players. A winning method has yet to be identified; but it is so that mega-scale methods being explored are yet to be given to you adequately. 

~JoeF



 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9552 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/10/2013
Subject: AWEIA-Canada and its Kite Energy Associations

Projected  Provincial or Territory Kite Energy Associations (KEAs) of  AWEIA-Canada, member of AWEIA International dedicated to using kite energy systems for tasks and energy production:

Western Canada
British Columbia  Kite Energy Association
Alberta Kite Energy Association
 
Central Canada
Ontario Kite Energy Association
Quebec Kite Energy Association
 
Prairie Provinces
Saskatchewan Kite Energy Association
Manitoba Kite Energy Association

Atlantic Canada
New Brunswick Kite Energy Association
Prince Edward Island Kite Energy Association
Nova Scotia Kite Energy Association
Newfoundland & Labrador Kite Energy Association
 
The Territories
Yukon Territory Kite Energy Association
Northwest Territories Kite Energy Association
Nunavut Kite Energy Association
 
Kite-energy entities (companies, clubs, individuals, corporations, committees) are invited to communicate with their appropriate KEA or AWEIA-Canada on all matters affecting AWE RAD.    Leaders are invited to periodically report progress from their realms to this forum.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9553 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/10/2013
Subject: AWEIA-Germany
AWEIA-Germany
invites each KEA within Germany to cooperate on safety-critical matters, ethics, methods experiences, task-satisfaction histories, challenges, local and national policies, orderly research, community relations, airspace management, supply, etc., as well as extension to international sharing and export of solutions. 

Clubs, companies, corporations, and individuals in the kite-energy occupations are urged to help make K3 (the era of tethered aviation) in Germany a source of cooperative pride.   Full size:   KEAsGermanyMap

State Pop-2011 Area(km.²) Area(mi.²) Capital Proposed German name
for Kite Energy Associations
Baden-Wurttemberg 10,486,660 35,752 13,804 Stuttgart Baden-Württemberg KEA
Bavaria 12,397,614 70,549 27,239 Munich Bayern KEA
Berlin 3,292,365 892 344 Berlin Berlin KEA
Brandenburg 2,455,780 29,477 11,381 Potsdam Brandenburg KEA
Bremen 650,863 404 156 Bremen Bremen KEA
Hamburg 1,706,696 755 292 Hamburg Hamburg KEA
Hesse 5,971,816 21,115 8,153 Wiesbaden Hessen KEA
Lower Saxony 7,777,992 47,618 18,385 Hanover Niedersachsen KEA
Mecklenburg-West Pomerania 1,609,982 23,173 8,947 Schwerin Mecklenburg-Vorpommern KEA
North Rhine-Westphalia 17,538,251 34,083 13,159 Dusseldorf Nordrhein-Westfalen KEA
Rhineland-Palatinate 3,989,808 19,847 7,663 Mainz Rheinland-Pfalz KEA
Saarland 999,623 2,569 992 Saarbrucken Saarland KEA
Saxony 4,056,799 18,413 7,109 Dresden Sachsen KEA
Saxony-Anhalt 2,287,040 20,445 7,894 Magdeburg Sachsen-Anhalt KEA
Schleswig-Holstein 2,800,119 15,763 6,086 Kiel Schleswig-Holstein KEA
Thuringia 2,188,589 16,172 6,244 Erfurt Thüringen KEA

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9554 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/10/2013
Subject: Dan Tracy is back at some traction items
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9555 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2013
Subject: Makani Confidential
It would be nice if we did not have to rely on rumors, but for several years now, the AWES Forum has had the honor of often being the first place that AWE Stealth-Venture facts get reported, with a fine track-record for accuracy. Please help correct or expand the ongoing effort to reveal the hidden AWE world..
 
Two well-placed rumors, from Makani circles, where much is hidden, and real news is scant-
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9556 From: Muzhichkov Date: 7/11/2013
Subject: Re: Berlin Tempelhof field-park-former airport
The problem is that even if investors will know about this database, it's hard to undestand how to earn money with each of this projects.
There are many ideas, less functional devices, less theory, less functional devices that bring energy :), and on the end there almost no business plans how to earn money from investments.
My oppinion, it must be an internet service on aweia.org where stackeholders can fulfill all inportant information that investors need. I'm not a specialist in this field, but i understand that investors need a transparent structured database where they can have a look one project after anouther and instantly find answers of they questions. For the moment investors must make very big investigations in each entry in http://energykitesystems.net/AWEstakeholders/index.html

So we need just correct where each invenotr can put correct information and help how better to make it.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9557 From: Muzhichkov Date: 7/11/2013
Subject: Re: Berlin Tempelhof field-park-former airport
The simplest way is to use already existing service in internet (for the moment I still didn't find any) and make there a group AWEIA, or integrate it in aweia.org
Such sites already have contacts with investorsand offer FAQ how to make s startup correct way

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9558 From: hardensoftintl Date: 7/11/2013
Subject: Re: Berlin Tempelhof field-park-former airport
Thanks, Muzichkov.
AWEIA appreciates your kind inputs and best possible support of all.
Regards.
JohnO
President-protem,
AWEIA International
Sent from my BlackBerry wireless device from MTN

From: "Muzhichkov" <muzhichkov@yahoo.com
Sender: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 07:15:37 -0000
To: <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AWES] Re: Berlin Tempelhof field-park-former airport

 

The problem is that even if investors will know about this database, it's hard to undestand how to earn money with each of this projects.
There are many ideas, less functional devices, less theory, less functional devices that bring energy :), and on the end there almost no business plans how to earn money from investments.
My oppinion, it must be an internet service on aweia.org where stackeholders can fulfill all inportant information that investors need. I'm not a specialist in this field, but i understand that investors need a transparent structured database where they can have a look one project after anouther and instantly find answers of they questions. For the moment investors must make very big investigations in each entry in http://energykitesystems.net/AWEstakeholders/index.html

So we need just correct where each invenotr can put correct information and help how better to make it.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9559 From: hardensoftintl Date: 7/11/2013
Subject: Re: Berlin Tempelhof field-park-former airport
For now, anyone with relevant information on their own websites may provide a brief summary and link to such websites for display on AWEIA.org and our yet "reserved for business" website - airbornewindenergy.com
Please forward to info@aweia.org or ceo@airbornewindenergy.com
Further lifts.
John Oyebanji
President-protem,
AWEIA International
Sent from my BlackBerry wireless device from MTN

From: "Muzhichkov" <muzhichkov@yahoo.com
Sender: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 07:15:37 -0000
To: <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AWES] Re: Berlin Tempelhof field-park-former airport

 

The problem is that even if investors will know about this database, it's hard to undestand how to earn money with each of this projects.
There are many ideas, less functional devices, less theory, less functional devices that bring energy :), and on the end there almost no business plans how to earn money from investments.
My oppinion, it must be an internet service on aweia.org where stackeholders can fulfill all inportant information that investors need. I'm not a specialist in this field, but i understand that investors need a transparent structured database where they can have a look one project after anouther and instantly find answers of they questions. For the moment investors must make very big investigations in each entry in http://energykitesystems.net/AWEstakeholders/index.html

So we need just correct where each invenotr can put correct information and help how better to make it.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9560 From: Muzhichkov Date: 7/11/2013
Subject: Re: A problem with energy transfer by longitudinal oscillations
By the way, an idea to your space lift.
http://www.awenergy.ru/images/Lift.jpg
Torroid ballons with inert gas like intermediate stations. Its reduce the burden for the rope. Inert gas can be hydrogen with self refueling system from water hydrolysis.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9561 From: Muzhichkov Date: 7/11/2013
Subject: Re: A problem with energy transfer by longitudinal oscillations
Thank you Dave, you are as allways helpfull :)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9562 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/11/2013
Subject: Re: A problem with energy transfer by longitudinal oscillations
--- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, "Muzhichkov" wrote:

"Inert" does not seem to apply to "hydrogen" gas; did you mean just lighter-than-air?
Here is the lift concept Muzhichkov just offered: 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9563 From: Doug Date: 7/11/2013
Subject: Re: A problem with energy transfer... "EnergySailboatSystems"
Imagine if "offshore wind energy" had sounded as impossible/offbeat as airborne wind energy. Imagine if, similarly to AWE, offshore wind was not take the least bit seriously by practicing wind energy people, and instead, you had everyone BUT wind energy people involved.

Would we have seen endless prognostications of sailboats and boating technology somehow applied to supposed energy production? Would we have groups allegedly pursuing energy production calling themselves "EnergySailboatSystems", "SailboatWindEnergy" etc.?

Would we have an endless parade of "professor crackpots" insisting that the only reasonable approach to offshore wind energy would be sailboats dragging long mooring lines as they sailed first away from shore, then furled their sails for a retraction phase where energy was used to haul the craft back to shore for the next round? Or maybe the answer would be pulsating sailboats? Large arrays of Bose-Einstein pulsating sailboats?

Instead of NASA, would we have the National Maritime Museum experimenting with cameras to positionally-monitor sailboats towing their mooring lines out to sea?

Would we have PhD's wasting their otherwise productive hours calculating the tradeoffs between how fast they could reel in the sailboat versus how much energy it would use?

I know, I know, I've just given a lot of sailboat people some new things to think about. A new offshore wind energy solution.

I was trying to construct an analogy to show how thinking that kites will even play any role whatsoever in AWE might be wrong, just as reeling sailboats are not even considered for offshore wind energy, but I now can see, if people don't "get it", they probably never will.

So, I guess we have a new "industry" that didn't exist a few minutes ago: "EnergySailboatSystems": reeling automated sailboats in and out by elongated mooring lines. Heck, forget automating the sailboats: people will volunteer to pilot them just for the honor. I hereby nominate skipper Santos. Dave S., can I be first mate?

I think the two best places to deploy these will be:
1) Underdeveloped countries, where they cannot afford cheap energy as it is, so let's give them something way more expensive that nobody in developed countries would use because they know better.

2) Or also Mars may be a good place to deploy "energy sailboat systems". You may say "Doug, now you are being ridiculous". No, I saw NASA promoting wind turbines supported by blimps on Mars and I think Mars has just as much water compared to Earth as atmosphere: less than 1%. And you know how smart the people at NASA are: they show blimp supporting a wind turbine in an almost 100% vacuum. They rely on you being too stupid to notice, then of asked say "It's just a rendering"! Yeah just a rendering to show everyone how cutting-edge they truly are... which they have!

If you can support a wind turbine from a blimp in an atmosphere that is less that 1% of ours, why not sailboats on Mars too? We see tiny amounts of water there after all, especially when the ice caps melt which they have been due to solar-system-wide-planetary-warming, so stop nitpicking my radical new concept!

I think this new concept of energysailboatsystems on Mars deserves some renderings and favorable press releases! Like that blimp on Mars! Come on let's get it in gear! Who's with me?
:)
Doug Selsam
http://www.selsam.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9564 From: Muzhichkov Date: 7/11/2013
Subject: Re: A problem with energy transfer by longitudinal oscillations
Yes, you are right

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9565 From: Doug Date: 7/11/2013
Subject: Re: Makani Confidential
Google should get back in touch with me, since I won the 2008 PopSci Invention of the Year for my flying wind turbine with 25 propellers that took a couple weeks and less than $1000 to make and flew for 2 days at the first AWE conference, and since I have wind-energy patents around the world, and because I have at least 10 easy ways to do AWE in my back pocket.

Weird how even hanging around with Eric Schmidt for 3 days did not put me back in touch with the Google.org clean energy folks, after they had initially contacted me. No matter, I'll get to it. At some point. I'm still scratching my head as to why anyone with aero expertise sees anything the least bit difficult or mysterious about the many easy ways to do AWE - what the heck is the problem?

Bureaucracy of any kind can tend to stifle innovation, I've noticed. I think I have some landscaping to do - gotta go. Have fun flying kites everyone! :L)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9566 From: Doug Date: 7/11/2013
Subject: Re: Berlin Tempelhof field-park-former airport
Yeah and what about SailboatEnergySystems?
I'm telling you, the future of energy is reeling sailboats in and out from shore... "Obviously", the requisite experts are sailors and boatbuilders.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9567 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/11/2013
Subject: Kited-boat energy systems
Kited-boat energy systems
is a topic much visited in the forum.  The topic has many branches of activity. Categorizations ever seem to leave out some specialized projects.  

Have a boat on water. What next? Attach some kind of kite system to the boat. What next? Specify a task? Aim to convert the wind's energy to mechanical energy to do some sort of work. Put that kite system to some good use! 

A first task is to keep the kite system's lofted parts lofted! Then whatever extra energy is gained, put that energy to satisfy a desire, a need, a purpose, a task, a work, a job ... Name the task wanted and adjust the design of the kite system and boat hull to a happy fit to "get the job done."     Task, kite system, boat hull.  The opportunities are many! Creative people will expand the description of those opportunities. Other creative people may build specific systems. Other creative people will operate the built systems to effect task completion. 

Name the tasks and bring on the specifications for the hull and kite systems. Convert the wind to satisfactions!

Here is a very incomplete list of some tasks that seem to have kited boat-hull energy systems roughly able to serve the named tasks:

  • Task: Move goods by large freighter ship from point A to point B.   SkySails  is offering some kite-system solutions for that task. 

  • Task: Move a single human for recreational travel over the water surface along with some free-flight jumping. Boat hull: kiteboard.  Kite system: several choices are being explored.  

  • Task: Produce electricity and store such into chemicals. This has a wide offering of hull and kite-system designs. This branches by the chemical product in the specification. 

  • Task: Produce electricity to run load systems that have been installed on the boat's hull in case primary systems fail to give the electricity.  

  • Task: Move 30 people from China to California in a yacht using as little auxiliary fuel as reasonable for safety while depending on mining the wind's energy for the sailing-by-kite system.  Recharge the fuel supply by making hydrogen by way of the kite system also. No oil or fossil fuels for the trip. Near harbor use fuel to negotiate final leg of the trip.    Note that this task may be satisfied with a wide variety of water-placed "hulls." One branch of satisfying arrangements has the people-holding cabin up off the water for most of the trip while having a paravane system for the main resistive set in the water. 

  • Task:    ?
(Pause. Others may continue on this topic when they have time and interest. Full system specifications are invited to be described, perhaps file linked.)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9568 From: dave santos Date: 7/11/2013
Subject: Doug's Aviation Question
Doug asked:
 
 "I'm still scratching my head as to why anyone with aero expertise sees anything the least bit difficult or mysterious about the many easy ways to do AWE - what the heck is the problem? "
 
 
Yes, there are many easy ways to do AWE at low altitude, as even you can. There is no mystery here for aero-experts.
 
The problem is effectively reaching into far better wind higher in shared airspace, and meeting all applicable FARs, for certifiable insurable reliable safety-critical performance. Fortunately, progress is rapid, so expect to soon see the true upper-wind resource tapped by AWES designed to the exacting standards of aviation culture.
 
If you are still scratching your head, try reducing shampoo use :)
 
================================================
 
Note: In repeatedly decrying "crackpots" with one "only reasonable approach", you never allow that the AWES Forum is explicitly about reviewing and testing all ideas, even bad ones, for the most possible knowledge. On this Forum, you are the one resolute advocate of one pet idea ("All roads lead to the SuperTurbine"). No AWE professor we know of is so limited and biased in view.


.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9569 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/11/2013
Subject: Balloons on Mars
BalloonsOnMarsGENERAL 
In the general study, notice that tethering a kytoon is ever an option that might help meet a specific task.  Hence, kite systems may play roles on Mars, even though its atmosphere is a small fraction as dense as that which we enjoy on Earth. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9570 From: dave santos Date: 7/11/2013
Subject: Longitudinal-Transverse Wave Interaction Similarity Case (Luthier's
That a pumped kiteline mixes longitudinal and transverse motion raises interesting questions with regard to optimal design and operation. High-dimensional wave mode mixing tends toward more model and precision uncertainty for current numeric simulations, with less exact agreement with real life. Where is a good similarity-case?
 
Our best intuitive notion of a fully realized AWES line-pumping method is beginning to look like the standing-waves seen close-up in slow-motion on musical strings. To match differing wind and load conditions, our pretensioned (tuned) lines can be engineered to step thru different harmonic modes, with matched ground-station harmonics. Dissonant (superposed, chaotic) modes are found between the preferred major tunings; which are quantum phonon effects, well-known as far back as Pythagoras, if not fully captured by Newtonian physics. We hardly even know what to ask DaveL to try and simulate, within still severe computational constraints.
 
How then, are we to advance quickly in our ability to understand and create complex longitudinal-transverse string-wave systems? Perhaps the master luthier, of all professions, has the best practical grasp of the principles involved, and can help inform the creation of megascale AWES, as deep infrasonic string instruments. We can even envision an entire ideal kite farm as a coherent musical instrument or ensemble, but running backwards; the wind and kite's wild songs converted to the smoothly synchronously beat of the electric grid.
 
 




 
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9571 From: roderickjosephread Date: 7/11/2013
Subject: 3d kixels
For an arch kite,
kixels (kixel = small unit 2d foil/panel) are usually a 2d sheet held on two loadpath lines (front and back).

If a kixel was augmented with a fin (or fins), The fin tip could be steered and held by a lower loadpath line.

Advantages to this 3d kixel are steering and a possibility to de-power all kixels without a tail line bungee system nor extra control line on the loadpath line.
The de-power would work by paying out the front and back loadpaths with respect to the lower fin tip line.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltJ0D3fizNg&feature=share&list=UU2eAHVBBCoO19xBuGOY73Zw 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9572 From: Muzhichkov Date: 7/11/2013
Subject: Re: Longitudinal-Transverse Wave Interaction Similarity Case (Luthie
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9573 From: Muzhichkov Date: 7/12/2013
Subject: Re: Longitudinal-Transverse Wave Interaction Similarity Case (Luthie
I think we have to investigate ultrasound and different types of waves like Rayleigh wave and so on. It can transfer dozens kilowatt and it used for exaple for welding.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9574 From: roderickjosephread Date: 7/12/2013
Subject: Re: A problem with energy transfer... "EnergySailboatSystems"
A richly insightful message thanks Doug.I-)
I have some sketches (not surprisingly) of a twinned arch sailing generation system.
And I'm quite sure it's not a nuts idea.
Key is focusing loci of forces in arches of many sails.
This is easy enough on a long boat with a curved horse-track fore and aft.
On the carriage, set the arch lines relative to each other.
The network of sails will collectively be deflecting yet also maintaining an arch.
Being airborne, these sails are not perfectly rigid. nor perfectly foiled. They are stable, multiple, strong and efficient.
Multiple small sail arches can fly with appropriately small rigid elements in each kixel.

A water kite arch "keel" under the hull, similar but much smaller, will also assist in providing overall vectoring forward.
Again the whole system can scale well.

Prediction: A twinned arch sailing system is going to break lowest sailing cost world record.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9575 From: Bob Stuart Date: 7/12/2013
Subject: Re: A problem with energy transfer... "EnergySailboatSystems"
I wonder if it is too late to recover the usage of the word "arch" for an arc-shaped compression structure, and have arc-shaped wings?  It would save a letter, too.

Bob

On 12-Jul-13, at 3:07 AM, roderickjosephread wrote:


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9576 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2013
Subject: Re: Longitudinal-Transverse Wave Interaction Similarity Case (Luthie
AlexM,
 
Thanks for the sound-transmission links. We begin to see a resonating tether mass as an acoustic capacitor (as well as conductor) in an acoustic circuit.
 
Second-sound is the basis for high-efficiency mechanical energy transfer in a tensioned kiteline. Note that Wikipedia articles on quantum mechanics still mostly omit notice of the macroscale phonon world we live in (like fish in water), but this is slowly improving. The fact is that our AWE studies have reached the wild frontier of phonon science, such that we are in some amazing particulars far better informed than the average physicist-
 
 

daveS


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9577 From: Rod Read Date: 7/12/2013
Subject: Re: A problem with energy transfer... "EnergySailboatSystems"

I preffer catenary shaped arches to arc shaped ones.
Do you want to build a huge new arch structure?
Hang a catenary line underwater, put two flanged cuffs on it low down. Seal a roll of seamable waterproof material onto the top of both ends. Seal the material around the rope. Fill / pump the resulting donut pocket with concrete or setable polymer. Keep seaming the edge of the sheet rollstock and feed it like an unrolling double skinned sock over and down the rope.
When the sock reaches, it goes into the cuff, and fixed through once set inside. Sealed again at the top. Next layer over that... Woven layer. :-)

Now that you have made a massive arch structure upside down underwater, the only thing to do is lift it upright using an arch kite.

How about laying it against another massive arch to make a stable large solid material structure which could have layers of data,  power, gas,  water tubing inside (need to be adjoined around the cuff)

Cc3.0 by nc

Roderick Read
15a Aiginish
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB
kitepowercoop.org

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9578 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2013
Subject: Re: A problem with energy transfer... "EnergySailboatSystems"
Bob asks- "I wonder if it is too late to recover the usage of the word "arch" for an arc-shaped compression structure, and have arc-shaped wings?  It would save a letter, too."
 
Kite Arch usage is quite consistent with Wikipedia's "curved-structure...spanning a space while supporting significant weight".*
 
The "arch" as more narrowly defined it is not lost usage, just one of fully available usages.  In kitng an "arc" kite is a Peter Lynn parafoil similar to paraglider kites- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arc_kite
 
"Kite Arch" is established in the kite world since at least the eighties, and the case for allowing this as compression-arch usage is strong, insofar as such arches are substantially "arc-shaped compression structure" that derive most of their rigidity from compressing air (under a stalled wing), not too different in principle from an arch made of closed inflated structure. By comparision, the foot-arch and "archer"'s bow are also not perfect usage under too strict a definition; these cases being tensegrity arch structure.
 
 
*  "An arch is a curved structure capable of spanning a space while supporting significant weight. It may also refer to the act of arching, or curving, an object such as the human back."
    
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9579 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2013
Subject: Kitellite and KiteFi Trademark Notice
A "project-of-the day" at the Awe Encampment is an Android-based mobile wifi hotspot that flies high in the sky under a 10 ft Gomberg Falcon Delta, powered by a hacked Ninja-Star turbine from New-Tech Kites of Austin. The generator is a Red Cross certified Eaton hand charged emergency radio with USB charging. Testing pending, but KiteLab Ilwaco has several times done AWE phone charging since 2007, so the engineering is routine. More news and media soon, but the following Trade Marks are hereby reserved by KiteLab Group,, with a free license to the Kite Power Coop.
 
"Kitellite" is reserved to trade-name kite-based applications by licensed parties that more or less perform services also done by satellites, stratellites. and the like.
 
"KiteFi" is likewise reserved to name wifi and similar services delivered by kite.
 
 
CC BY NC SA




 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9580 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2013
Subject: "KiteSat" reserved to Public Domain
"KiteSat" is hereby claimed on the AWES Forum for open public-domain generic non-exclusive usage, to mean kite-based applications comparable to satellites or sratellites.
 




 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9581 From: Gabor Dobos Date: 7/13/2013
Subject: Re: AWEC 2013 - Once more!
On Sun Jul 7, 2013 2:07 pm    dobosg 001 wrote.                                           :
   JoeF,                                                                                                                                                                        ;                                                                                                                                                                      &n bsp;                                                                                                                                                                       ;                                                                                                                                                                      &n bsp;                                                                                                                                                                       ;                                                                                                                                                                      &n bsp;                                                                                                                                                                       ;                                                                                    
I have answered your above letter on
Mon, 08 Jul 2013 21:07:23 +0200
but it seems that it has been lost somewhere. In this letter, I asked for your kind help because  I had a vague foreboding  that there is some history that everyone knows but I don't, and I asked you not to leave me in the dark.

As I see, since my first letter (#9504) regarding the AWEC2013 conference something happened. Since then, there are 23  letters dealing with or connected to the conference, while before my letter I did not find any. This  letters confirm my foreboding, and gives me some  insight into the antecedents of  them. 

By my eyes several old wrongs and clashes can be seen, and it is of course about business and money. It is a dangerous situation for me, since the "fighters" usually don't like the unexposed newcomers.   But I would like to emphasize that I came to find friends and helpers in this community. And I am going to attend the conference because of the same reasons.

Therefore I would like to repeat my original invitation:
If any of you intends to attend the event, I would much appreciate meeting you there. I ask you to send me an email about it.

Let us continue with your letter above.

I have to say that I did not find it surprising that some well known firms mentioned by you engaged in harnessing high altitude wind energy,  are not on the lists of the consortium organizing that event. There are so many firms dealing with high altitude winds, that it would be a simple task to recite further 10-20 firms who are also not on the list. Obviously, everybody misses only his own friends, researche-fellows, business partners. To tell the truth, it did not come in my mind, that it could be a problem. It was enough for me seeing some well known names. E.g. Sky WindPower Corporation (just this one to mention), being one of the firms making the first successful experiments with autogiro-like energy harvesting devices.This firm is also a member of the corporation that organises the conference. People such as Professor Roberts and Professor Caldeira, whose names have become “classical” by now, having achieved this success   with autogiro. (And of cource a considerable list of other contributors. I beg their pardon because not to mention their names,)  The latter being the author (together with Christina Archer) of the first comprehensive and systematic research on high altitude winds. This reevaluation of the data is a standard of such works even today. (see: Global Assessment of High-Altitude Wind Power. Cristina L. Archer, and Ken Caldeira, Energies 2009, 2, 307-319; doi:10.3390/en20200307)

By the way, in my correspondence with Christina Archer we agreed that though the data published in their paper are very useful for the ongoing research on harnessing energy of high altitude winds, the resolution of the primary data is not sufficient for the purpose of extracting wind-shear data for evaluating the possibility of Dynamic Soaring.

Well, Christina Archer will hold the “topic leading speech” of “Wind & Weather”at the conference. I would like to hear her, and to speak with her. The simplest way to do so is to attend this conference. (By the way, I have a meeting there with Mac Brown, Vice President of Sky WindPower. ) These antedecents  were enough garantie for me that the conference will be professional, and at the same time  a meeting of good fellows.

It was a great disappointment for me that by your opinion things are not as nice as I have thought it, based on my own antecedents.  Not being the shareholder of AWEC Corporation, I can't answer your question why are missing several firms engaged  in high-altitude-wind-technology and highly appreciated by you,  from the lists of AWEC Corporation. Possibly, you could ask these firms themselves. Of course,“while there” I will do my best to find out the answer to your question, and to  try to help solving the problems which are hindering the possible cooperation between you and AWEC.  But I do not need to be there for that, I could just ask Guido Luetsch by email or by calling him on the phone. (Guido has holidays until 22 Juli.) By the way, anybody could do so. But what kind of answers can you imagin or ratheer accept, if everybody has the right to follow his own business-interest?

Maybe, I know how to solve these problems, if  they are not yet solved. See my next mail!

Best regards,   Gábor



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9582 From: hardensoftintl Date: 7/13/2013
Subject: Re: AWEC 2013 - Once more!
Welcome, Gabor.
You have read well between the lines.
If you search the forum for my earlier messages on AWEC-AWEIA history, things should clear up a bit.
The AWEC(onference) remains hijacked from the entirety of all AWE stakeholders by AWEC(consortium) - an elite AWE business club whose founders were unable to pocket AWEIA International.

The differences are justly ethical - AWEIA standing for open transparent governance and all-inclusion while AWEC(onsortium) remains exclusive, secretive and pay-to-play.
When the Guido-led organizing team of Berlin2013 Conference stated the desire of coming out of the Conference with one united AWE Voice, AWEIA requested to be represented on the organizing committee but that request. was turned down over DaveS' access to AWEIA and her information.
Guido and his team no longer opens DaveS' emails and they probably won't talk to me anymore since I am open to DaveS.
I hope this brief update helps.
Best lifts.
John Oyebanji
President-protem, AWEIA
Sent from my BlackBerry wireless device from MTN

From: Gabor Dobos <dobosg001@yahoo.com
Sender: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2013 11:14:48 +0200
To: <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Joe Faust<joefaust333@gmail.com  

On Sun Jul 7, 2013 2:07 pm    dobosg 001 wrote.                                           :
   JoeF,                                                                                                                                                                        ;                                                                                                                                                                      &n bsp;                                                                                                                                                                       ;                                                                                                                                                                      &n bsp;                                                                                                                                                                       ;                                                                                                                                                                      &n bsp;                                                                                                                                                                       ;                                                                                    
I have answered your above letter on
Mon, 08 Jul 2013 21:07:23 +0200
but it seems that it has been lost somewhere. In this letter, I asked for your kind help because  I had a vague foreboding  that there is some history that everyone knows but I don't, and I asked you not to leave me in the dark.

As I see, since my first letter (#9504) regarding the AWEC2013 conference something happened. Since then, there are 23  letters dealing with or connected to the conference, while before my letter I did not find any. This  letters confirm my foreboding, and gives me some  insight into the antecedents of  them. 

By my eyes several old wrongs and clashes can be seen, and it is of course about business and money. It is a dangerous situation for me, since the "fighters" usually don't like the unexposed newcomers.   But I would like to emphasize that I came to find friends and helpers in this community. And I am going to attend the conference because of the same reasons.

Therefore I would like to repeat my original invitation:
If any of you intends to attend the event, I would much appreciate meeting you there. I ask you to send me an email about it.

Let us continue with your letter above.

I have to say that I did not find it surprising that some well known firms mentioned by you engaged in harnessing high altitude wind energy,  are not on the lists of the consortium organizing that event. There are so many firms dealing with high altitude winds, that it would be a simple task to recite further 10-20 firms who are also not on the list. Obviously, everybody misses only his own friends, researche-fellows, business partners. To tell the truth, it did not come in my mind, that it could be a problem. It was enough for me seeing some well known names. E.g. Sky WindPower Corporation (just this one to mention), being one of the firms making the first successful experiments with autogiro-like energy harvesting devices.This firm is also a member of the corporation that organises the conference. People such as Professor Roberts and Professor Caldeira, whose names have become “classical” by now, having achieved this success   with autogiro. (And of cource a considerable list of other contributors. I beg their pardon because not to mention their names,)  The latter being the author (together with Christina Archer) of the first comprehensive and systematic research on high altitude winds. This reevaluation of the data is a standard of such works even today. (see: Global Assessment of High-Altitude Wind Power. Cristina L. Archer, and Ken Caldeira, Energies 2009, 2, 307-319; doi:10.3390/en20200307)

By the way, in my correspondence with Christina Archer we agreed that though the data published in their paper are very useful for the ongoing research on harnessing energy of high altitude winds, the resolution of the primary data is not sufficient for the purpose of extracting wind-shear data for evaluating the possibility of Dynamic Soaring.

Well, Christina Archer will hold the “topic leading speech” of “Wind & Weather”at the conference. I would like to hear her, and to speak with her. The simplest way to do so is to attend this conference. (By the way, I have a meeting there with Mac Brown, Vice President of Sky WindPower. ) These antedecents  were enough garantie for me that the conference will be professional, and at the same time  a meeting of good fellows.

It was a great disappointment for me that by your opinion things are not as nice as I have thought it, based on my own antecedents.  Not being the shareholder of AWEC Corporation, I can't answer your question why are missing several firms engaged  in high-altitude-wind-technology and highly appreciated by you,  from the lists of AWEC Corporation. Possibly, you could ask these firms themselves. Of course,“while there” I will do my best to find out the answer to your question, and to  try to help solving the problems which are hindering the possible cooperation between you and AWEC.  But I do not need to be there for that, I could just ask Guido Luetsch by email or by calling him on the phone. (Guido has holidays until 22 Juli.) By the way, anybody could do so. But what kind of answers can you imagin or ratheer accept, if everybody has the right to follow his own business-interest?

Maybe, I know how to solve these problems, if  they are not yet solved. See my next mail!

Best regards,   Gábor



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9583 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/13/2013
Subject: Lifted Loop Ladder Set Vertically
Variant on the lifted loop ladder: 
Details of wing connections to the loop lines are not shown in first rough sketch. 
The wings are controlled to drive up traverse to the wing and drive down traverse to the wind. 
The loop lines are continuously traveling in one direction. The ground generator is driven by the loop lines. 
The wings are flying to crosswind in the vertical direction.   The set of wings may have a high count of wings. 
The loop top may be at a very high altitude. The lifter system may be a train of wings with the dominant role of keeping taut the the loop set. 
Misleading is the wing extending past the loop line; preferred is to the the wing terminating before reading the loop line; a connector from the wing to the loop lines will suffice. Angle of attack of wing could be controlled to fit the needs of the apparent wind experienced by each wing.      ~JpF    CC 3.0 license 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9584 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/13/2013
Subject: WPI gets grant for undersea 'kite' project
WPI gets grant for undersea 'kite' project 
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
"Worcester Polytechnic Institute will receive more than $300,000 for a project looking at the harvesting of hydrokinetic energy using tethered undersea kites designed to take advantage of powerful tidal forces."


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9585 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/13/2013
Subject: Short video, interesting close up
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9586 From: Gabor Dobos Date: 7/13/2013
Subject: Re: AWEC 2013 - Once more! - 2
Dear Mr. President,

Thank you very much for the official info and for your personal care to elucidate this cheerless history for me.

I would like to tell you that my e-mail always will be open for you, for DaveS, for Guido Luetsch as well as for all those who would like to contact me.

Furthermore, I will participate in AWEC2013, since this situation is not enough reason to reject contact with the other half of the world and with a lot of highly appreciated researchers. 

At last, I would like to ask your permission to forward the present correspondence to Guido Luetsch in order to inform him about my opinion as well as about my proposal for you and him. (see below)

Yours sincerely,

Dr. Gábor Dobos
managing director
Chemotronik R&D Ltd
Hungary
dobosg001@yahoo.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear John,
                      
 I hope very much that the banal story below and above cannot influence the beginning friendship of  that smiling fellow (it is you!) with me, who I got to know in my Linkedin group. (It can not influence mine. And yours?)

There is a saying in Hungarian, in free translation: "every bad thing comes together with some good things".

Well, the bad thing is the subject of these letters. The good thing is that I have a proposition which can not only solve the problem, but at the same time open new perspectives. I will tell here the thing in some sentences. Later on, we can it discuss it in the forum or elsewhere. (E.g. in a pub...)

Go on!

You probably agree that conventional WPPs have their limits. Sizes cannot grow endlessly. After a few years of development they cannot compete with your tethered devices that harness the energy of more intensive and more persistent winds, blowing at few thousand meters altitude.

Matter-less whether you agree or not, but in the very same way, your tethered devices are not competitive with untethered ones, applying Dynamic Soaring. I am convinced that you overestimate the time need of the developments and underestimate the possibilities of the design. This self-delusion can be fatal for your business.

And now forgive me for being blunt, but I have to say that it is pointless to play war with Guido Luetsch and vice-versa. That is a sideway. The  real danger is that  the untethered WPPs  in 6-8 years  begin to annex the  windenergy market, - if we will be not prepered, and  will not come before the competitors. By the way: tethred designs will be applied only in insel

It is the time to take untethered energy harvesting devices much more seriously, than until now.  It is the winner technology, you just don't know it. Yet.

I propose to begin today. This is a new chance to agree with Guido. Old (tethered )technologies will be almost of NO value

Best lift!

Gábor



On 2013-07-13 12:25, hardensoftintl@yahoo.com wrote:
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9587 From: Bob Stuart Date: 7/13/2013
Subject: Re: WPI gets grant for undersea 'kite' project
This one looks like a very easy win.  The ocean is a tough place to plant a traditional windmill, but the buoyancy and predictability makes everything about kites easy.  They also avoid most real estate and FAA issues.  The very best tidal sites are mostly small, which offers economies to experimental scale efforts.  
Some of the most attractive tidal sites are also near abrupt shorelines.  There, the kite could be used to pump water up to a raised reservoir.  All the electric bits would be on land, producing power on demand to smooth out the other renewables.  

Bob Stuart

On 13-Jul-13, at 4:34 PM, Joe Faust wrote:


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 9588 From: hardensoftintl Date: 7/13/2013
Subject: Re: AWEC 2013 - Once more! - 2
More thanks to you, Gabor.
AWEIA has never called for a boycott.
Individuals must freely decide best ways to spend time and resources just as we freely determine our friends and business associates.
I will be glad to have all AWE stakeholders united under one umbrella body with caring, open-minded leadership acceptable to all and serving the interests of all.
For now, I must wait and watch.
Best lifts.
JohnO
Sent from my BlackBerry wireless device from MTN

From: Gabor Dobos <dobosg001@yahoo.com
Sender: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2013 01:19:41 +0200
To: <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Cc: <hardensoftintl@yahoo.com  

Dear Mr. President,

Thank you very much for the official info and for your personal care to elucidate this cheerless history for me.

I would like to tell you that my e-mail always will be open for you, for DaveS, for Guido Luetsch as well as for all those who would like to contact me.

Furthermore, I will participate in AWEC2013, since this situation is not enough reason to reject contact with the other half of the world and with a lot of highly appreciated researchers. 

At last, I would like to ask your permission to forward the present correspondence to Guido Luetsch in order to inform him about my opinion as well as about my proposal for you and him. (see below)

Yours sincerely,

Dr. Gábor Dobos
managing director
Chemotronik R&D Ltd
Hungary
dobosg001@yahoo.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear John,
                      
 I hope very much that the banal story below and above cannot influence the beginning friendship of  that smiling fellow (it is you!) with me, who I got to know in my Linkedin group. (It can not influence mine. And yours?)

There is a saying in Hungarian, in free translation: "every bad thing comes together with some good things".

Well, the bad thing is the subject of these letters. The good thing is that I have a proposition which can not only solve the problem, but at the same time open new perspectives. I will tell here the thing in some sentences. Later on, we can it discuss it in the forum or elsewhere. (E.g. in a pub...)

Go on!

You probably agree that conventional WPPs have their limits. Sizes cannot grow endlessly. After a few years of development they cannot compete with your tethered devices that harness the energy of more intensive and more persistent winds, blowing at few thousand meters altitude.

Matter-less whether you agree or not, but in the very same way, your tethered devices are not competitive with untethered ones, applying Dynamic Soaring. I am convinced that you overestimate the time need of the developments and underestimate the possibilities of the design. This self-delusion can be fatal for your business.

And now forgive me for being blunt, but I have to say that it is pointless to play war with Guido Luetsch and vice-versa. That is a sideway. The  real danger is that  the untethered WPPs  in 6-8 years  begin to annex the  windenergy market, - if we will be not prepered, and  will not come before the competitors. By the way: tethred designs will be applied only in insel

It is the time to take untethered energy harvesting devices much more seriously, than until now.  It is the winner technology, you just don't know it. Yet.

I propose to begin today. This is a new chance to agree with Guido. Old (tethered )technologies will be almost of NO value

Best lift!

Gábor



On 2013-07-13 12:25, hardensoftintl@yahoo.com wrote: