Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                           AWES8881to8930 Page 75 of 440.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8881 From: dave santos Date: 3/23/2013
Subject: "public systematic questioning of AWE players"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8882 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 3/24/2013
Subject: Re: "public systematic questioning of AWE players"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8883 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 3/24/2013
Subject: Re: "public systematic questioning of AWE players"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8884 From: dave santos Date: 3/24/2013
Subject: Re: "public systematic questioning of AWE players"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8885 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/24/2013
Subject: Re: "public systematic questioning of AWE players"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8886 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 3/24/2013
Subject: Re: "public systematic questioning of AWE players"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8887 From: dave santos Date: 3/24/2013
Subject: Timaz Outreach Credit

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8888 From: dave santos Date: 3/24/2013
Subject: AWEC Dishonesty?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8889 From: dave santos Date: 3/24/2013
Subject: How to raise ~8,000,000 USD from investors...(Magenn Claims)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8890 From: dave santos Date: 3/24/2013
Subject: Re: "public systematic questioning of AWE players"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8891 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 3/24/2013
Subject: Re: AWEC Dishonesty?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8892 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 3/24/2013
Subject: Re: "public systematic questioning of AWE players"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8893 From: dave santos Date: 3/24/2013
Subject: Re: AWEC Dishonesty?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8894 From: dave santos Date: 3/24/2013
Subject: Re: "public systematic questioning of AWE players"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8895 From: dave santos Date: 3/24/2013
Subject: French Rebuttal of AWEC's Privatized AWE-Airspace Initiative

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8896 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 3/24/2013
Subject: Re: AWEC Dishonesty?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8897 From: roderickjosephread Date: 3/24/2013
Subject: Eye iris sphincter muscle as inspiration for energy handling

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8898 From: roderickjosephread Date: 3/24/2013
Subject: Re: Eye iris sphincter muscle as inspiration for energy handling

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8899 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 3/25/2013
Subject: Re: AWEC Dishonesty?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8900 From: dave santos Date: 3/25/2013
Subject: Re: AWEC Dishonesty?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8901 From: Doug Date: 3/25/2013
Subject: Re: sphincter as inspiration

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8902 From: Doug Date: 3/25/2013
Subject: Re: Wind Turbine Design Basics for AWES Deveopers

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8903 From: Doug Date: 3/25/2013
Subject: Re: AWEC Dishonesty?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8904 From: dave santos Date: 3/25/2013
Subject: Geothermal AWE Concept

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8905 From: dave santos Date: 3/25/2013
Subject: Re: AWEC Dishonesty?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8906 From: roderickjosephread Date: 3/25/2013
Subject: Re: sphincter as inspiration

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8907 From: Bob Stuart Date: 3/25/2013
Subject: Re: Geothermal AWE Concept

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8908 From: Bob Stuart Date: 3/25/2013
Subject: Re: sphincter as inspiration

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8909 From: roderickjosephread Date: 3/25/2013
Subject: Re: sphincter as inspiration

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8910 From: dave santos Date: 3/25/2013
Subject: Impact Drills, Pile Driving

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8911 From: Bob Stuart Date: 3/25/2013
Subject: Re: Impact Drills, Pile Driving

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8912 From: dave santos Date: 3/25/2013
Subject: Nice Ampyx Flight Videos

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8913 From: dave santos Date: 3/25/2013
Subject: Pile-Driving Kite Rig

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8914 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/25/2013
Subject: New record for lightest "solid" ?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8915 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/25/2013
Subject: Re: New record for lightest "solid" ?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8916 From: roderickjosephread Date: 3/26/2013
Subject: Re: Pile-Driving Kite Rig

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8917 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2013
Subject: Re: Pile-Driving Kite Rig

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8918 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2013
Subject: Green House Gas Kite Solutions (and "Cooperative Marketing Pitch")

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8919 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2013
Subject: The AWE Marketing Myth of "Greater Capacity Factor" (?)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8920 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2013
Subject: Tracing The Myth of "AWE at a LCOE <2 cents an hour"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8921 From: Doug Date: 3/26/2013
Subject: Re: AWEC Dishonesty?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8922 From: Doug Date: 3/26/2013
Subject: Re: How to raise ~8,000,000 USD from investors...(Magenn Claims)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8923 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2013
Subject: Re: AWEC Dishonesty?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8924 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2013
Subject: Re: How to raise ~8,000,000 USD from investors...(Magenn Claims)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8925 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 3/26/2013
Subject: Re: How to raise ~8,000,000 USD from investors...(Magenn Claims)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8926 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 3/26/2013
Subject: Is AWE advantageously workable?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8927 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2013
Subject: AWEIA, AWEC, and Magenn

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8928 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2013
Subject: Re: Is AWE advantageously workable?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8929 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/27/2013
Subject: Re: Is AWE advantageously workable?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8930 From: dave santos Date: 3/27/2013
Subject: Giant Kixelated LoadPath FlipWings (Mothra-FlipWing Hybrid)




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8881 From: dave santos Date: 3/23/2013
Subject: "public systematic questioning of AWE players"
Pierre,

Thank you for questioning the act of questioning in public ;)

Seriously: What is wrong with "public systematic questioning of AWE players"?

Focus on specific questions that you consider improper, so they can be retracted, or better justified.

Please always feel welcome to question me (and my work associates) any time your want, in public; the tougher the questions, the better! 

daveS
 



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8882 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 3/24/2013
Subject: Re: "public systematic questioning of AWE players"

DaveS,

 

"We have seem many millions wasted by undeserving and even dishonest AWE promoters". This type of sentence,taken on your last "Open Questions...",is a way to throw the depreciation on vague bases:it is what Dave Culp called" yellow journalism ".In this sense "public systematic questioning of AWE players" (out of technical considerations,like I precise in my precedent message) deserves AWE players and so our forum.

 

PierreB 

 




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8883 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 3/24/2013
Subject: Re: "public systematic questioning of AWE players"
(some corrections of my precedent message)

DaveS,

 

"We have seem many millions wasted by undeserving and even dishonest AWE promoters". This type of sentence,taken on your last "Open Questions..." (I underline the word " dishonest "),is a way to throw the depreciation on vague bases:it is what Dave Culp called" yellow journalism ".In this sense "public systematic questioning of AWE players" (out of technical considerations,like I precise in my precedent message) harms AWE players and so our forum.

 

PierreB



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8884 From: dave santos Date: 3/24/2013
Subject: Re: "public systematic questioning of AWE players"

Pierre,

Never forget that Dave Culp was paid by Makani at the time he tried too hard to defend them in the Forum against my well informed critiques. He was my key AWE mentor, and we are still friends, and in current contact on AWE progress. I cannot blame him for finally resorting to name-calling in emotional desperation, since the difficult job of defending Makani's tech left him no good specific arguments.

Lets examine the case for dishonest claims that originated within AWEC's membership, one-by-one and see how well you can defend them. If you cannot defend them, please admit that dishonesty in AWEC member marketing has been a problem, but very lucrative for the best liars*.

Case number one- 

For five years or so, on its website home page, founding AWEC member Magenn claimed it was about to do a humanitarian project with its AWES in the poor Mayan village of Timaz Mexico. 

I made many attempts to get information from Magenn, since this is a part of Mexico well known to me and very close to my heart. 

There is no sign any aid was ever given to Timaz in any form, even though Magenn raised 8 million dollars from investors. Finally the apparently dishonest Timaz promotion is off the net, with the dissappearence of Magenn's website. 

How Magenn dispensed with the millions raised in the name of AWE R&D is still not fully known, but its presumed the money was spent similarly to the 25 million Fred Furgusen previously raised for the Magnus Airship (but without a mysterious fire). Magenn never shared its test data in public.

So, Pierre, was the Magenn Timaz Project an honest claim or not? 

Is discussion of it "yellow journalism" to you?

daveS



* Lets define an AWEC liar as a member who willfully makes a demonstrably false statement for marketing gain, and will not correct it.





Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8885 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/24/2013
Subject: Re: "public systematic questioning of AWE players"
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8886 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 3/24/2013
Subject: Re: "public systematic questioning of AWE players"

DaveS,

 

"So, Pierre, was the Magenn Timaz Project an honest claim or not? ".

 

Have you any documents (for example some register from the Major of Timaz,as real or not real project),any sources (like for an article for Wikipedia)?

 

PierreB



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8887 From: dave santos Date: 3/24/2013
Subject: Timaz Outreach Credit

I did new searches, and this time found evidence the Timaz effort had definite (non-AWE) benefit to the Mayan community, in the form of a solar-powered water pump.

Given this moral "fig-leaf", but also considering the excessive amount of promotion Magenn gave Timaz, and the claim it would be a Magenn AWES demonstration, its uncertain how "honest" this promotion should be judged.

I however now drop this case as a prime example of AWE marketing dishonesty, and apologize to the Forum for not checking more carefully before presenting it so.

Perhaps the Rivards can shed more light on this project, especially Magenn's direct costs.


Evidence-


1) Photo evidence Magenn began well in Timaz with a solar water pump, and that the Rivards in particular played a constructive role.

https://plus.google.com/photos/109359262191640856987/albums/5637019849996855633/5637019848313794114?banner=pwa


2) A reference on "Look into the Magenn wind turbine company's humanitarian project in Timaz, Mexico. The company commissioned a solar-powered water pump for the residents of the village in the Yucatan region of Mexico.."

http://www.ehow.com/how_4557510_offgrid-living-mexico.html






Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8888 From: dave santos Date: 3/24/2013
Subject: AWEC Dishonesty?


Pierre,

AWEC claims on its Website-

"The Airborne Wind Energy Consortium unites the stakeholders of the industry into a single, focused voice." 


This to me is a clearly dishonest statement, easily disproven.

What do you think?

daveS
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8889 From: dave santos Date: 3/24/2013
Subject: How to raise ~8,000,000 USD from investors...(Magenn Claims)
Pierre,

No AWE expert can insist the Magenn claims below were honest or competent.  Magenn never answered public questions posed on the Forum about these outrageous claims. We were trying to protect innocent investors. Our ethical duty is to warn naive investors about false AWE claims, as best we can. Its OK for you to object.

You are objecting to the concept of Public Accountability by any AWE party who wishes not to be so accountable, but surely you must agree, Magenn used false claims, under the cover of false AWEC prestige, to raise far more money than many honest AWE ventures,

daveS

===============================
 
Magenn Power Inc. will start manufacturing its Air Rotors in Fall of 2006 and will start taking product orders in April of 2006 for the 4.0 kW MARS units. 

Product Release Dates are as follows:

Magenn Power Air Rotors
Size
Diameter (feet)
Length (feet)
Operating Height (ft)
Target Price USD
Year in Full Production
1 kW MARS (Camper, Boater Size)
1kW
6.5
19.5
50-150
$1,999
2007
4 kW MARS (Cottage & Home Size)
4kW
13
39
150-400
$9,999
2006
10 kW MARS (Large House Size)
10kW
18
54
200-500
To Be Determined
2007
50 kW MARS (Large Farm Size)
50kW
25
75
200-500
To Be Determined
2007
100 kW MARS (Up to 15 homes)
100kW
53
159
400-800
To Be Determined
2007
400 kW MARS (Up to 75 homes)
400kW
53
159
400-800
To Be Determined
2008
800 kW MARS (Up to 150 homes)
800kW
67
200
400-925
To Be Determined
2009
1.6 MW MARS (up to 300 homes)
1.6MW
67
200
400-925
To Be Determined
2009


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8890 From: dave santos Date: 3/24/2013
Subject: Re: "public systematic questioning of AWE players"

Pierre,

Joby Energy is another AWEC founder-company that was systematically questioned on the public Forum, in just the manner you are opposed to.
 
This typical claim is still on the website-

"Our airborne wind turbine yields a capacity factor 
of nearly double that of a conventional turbine."

Note that the Joby 2MW Turbine was clearly predicted in great detail to be unrealizeable by 2012, the target date Joby announced to the world. All the more realistic AWE efforts suffered under this PR shadow.

The AWES Forum is unique in the world as the place to question AWE claims. By comparison, conventional journalism has been far more "yellow",

daveS


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8891 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 3/24/2013
Subject: Re: AWEC Dishonesty?


DaveS,

 

Where is the proof Magenn Timaz project did not exist?The following sentence from AWEC?

Concerning "The Airborne Wind Energy Consortium unites the stakeholders of the industry into a single, focused voice.":it can be exact for me since I am not (yet) a company or a cooperative;it can be also inexact,but this sentence can be taken in the context of "mission" not yet completely accomplished.I do not see any proof of dishonesty.

 

When we accuse, it is necessary to bring the proof.

 

PierreB 


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8892 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 3/24/2013
Subject: Re: "public systematic questioning of AWE players"

DaveS,

"Joby Energy is another AWEC founder-company that was systematically questioned on the public Forum, in just the manner you are opposed to."

I said the contrary on a recent post:"technical debate comprising technical disagreement, yes...".

PierreB

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8893 From: dave santos Date: 3/24/2013
Subject: Re: AWEC Dishonesty?
Pierre,

My standard of what "honest" means may just be stronger than yours. I insist it is dishonest for AWEC to continue to claim, year after year- 

"The Airborne Wind Energy Consortium unites the stakeholders of the industry into a single, focused voice."

A proper mission statement is not written as a fait-accompli. In truth AWEC has always divided us by its secretive pay-to-play governance, marketer-hijacked conferences, and unpopular unworkable policy ideas like "Privatized Airspace". To claim otherwise is not very honest.

The Timaz project is ambiguous, and was a poor choice on my part to demonstrate Magenn's  pattern of false claims. Judging it depends on whether you think Magenn used Timaz as part of a wider pattern of dishonest public relations.

Below is far better evidence of Magenn false claims. See if you can admit any to be so, in honesty-

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8894 From: dave santos Date: 3/24/2013
Subject: Re: "public systematic questioning of AWE players"
Pierre,

You wrote- "technical debate comprising technical disagreement, yes...".

So you agree that my technical questions as posed to Guido and NTS. regarding claims about material use, airspace/land efficiency, and so on, are proper? And that to hold AWEC members publicly accountable to technical truths is a proper AWES Forum activity?

Your objection then seems to be that no one should ever publicly question the "honesty" of AWE marketing claims.

Ridiculous! Its just as proper of you to cry "yellow journalism", if that is your sincere opinion, as it is for me to call into question AWEC's honesty.

I hope someday you note some flaws in AWEC's ongoing PR narratives, just as you object to me expressing dissent against AWEC on an obscure Forum. 

daveS

PS Keep in mind that the trigger for my questions to Guido was Joe's public conference questions, plus Guido's decision to exclude AWEIA from the conference organizing comittee. Who choose Guido to make such decisions binding on us all?

Your intrusion diverts attention from these issues...




 




==========================
I am sorry for the Yahoo "CSNBC Jobs" Spam Virus 
that hijacked the Contact List for this mail account. 
Please accept this apology for any trouble caused.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8895 From: dave santos Date: 3/24/2013
Subject: French Rebuttal of AWEC's Privatized AWE-Airspace Initiative


"....you are undone if you once forget that the fruits of Earth belong to us all, and Earth itself to nobody." 


           — Jean-Jacques Rousseau, Discourse on Inequality, 1754  
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8896 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 3/24/2013
Subject: Re: AWEC Dishonesty?
Concerning "The Airborne Wind Energy Consortium unites the stakeholders of the industry into a single, focused voice.":

It is well known that the Airborne Wind Energy Consortium - AWEC - has from it's founding been a select club of "pay-to-play" high-risk aviation technology based Airborne Wind Energy players that has been particularly skillful in excluding the "Keep-It-Simple", "Rag and String" Kite-oriented AWES folks from it's fold through the often unjustifiably imposed fees. The Airborne Wind Energy Consortium members have also for the most part kept away from the  Open Forum discussions.
The Airborne Wind Energy Conferences which the Airborne Wind Energy Consortium is hijacking now started with the first High Altitude Wind Power Conference in 2009 at which the Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association (AWEIA International) was mooted and consequently publically formed with everyone on the Open Forum then freely contributing to the naming of the emerging sector as the Airborne Wind Energy Sector especially towards approaching the US Senate at the time for support.
The role of Mr Joe Ben Bevirt (then of Joby Energy) in the clandestine request for aweia.org and airbornewindenergy.com domains from the circle of holders and his subsequent forming of "Airborne Wind Energy Consortium" when the now obvious planned hijacking of Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association (AWEIA International) failed has already been documented in an earlier post on the open forum under the heading: AWEC-AWEIA relationship.
Towards the 2013 Berlin Conference where AWEC now hopes to come out with "a unified EU AWE Voice"; it needs be put on record that Guido - current Chief Planner and Coordinator alongside two others representing AWEC met AWEIA-EU resident representative Mr Martin Sculthes on 9th January 2013 to discuss Cooperations between AWEIA and AWEC especially with the AWEC2013 Conference being planned for Europe.
AWEIA International has requested to have nominated members in the AWEC2013 Conference Planning Committee. AWEC through Guido had refused this request at first and as at this moment AWEIA International has communicated it's insistence on having nominated members on the AWEC2013 Conference Planning Committee or a joining of AWEIA International by AWEC and the newly founded German Airborne Wind Energy Association - headed by Guido. 
As it stands, AWEC is welcomed to recognize AWEIA International as the "One AWE Voice" she seeks and join freely OR at the least be honest to acknowledge an existing "AWE Voice" in AWEIA - one that AWEC is unwilling to acknowledge for whatever reasons she has not to do so.
Best lifts;
John Oyebanji
President-protem, Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association (AWEIA International)
 
John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
Managing Consultant & CEO
Hardensoft International Limited
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Should you not be the addressee and receive this e-mail by mistake, kindly notify the sender, and delete this e-mail immediately.
Do not disclose or use it in any way. Views and opinions expressed in this e-mail are those of the sender unless clearly stated as those of some other.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8897 From: roderickjosephread Date: 3/24/2013
Subject: Eye iris sphincter muscle as inspiration for energy handling

When it gets too bright, the iris shuts down the area of light transmitted through the lens to the pupil. The narrower passage of light now has less damaging energy, a narrower circle of confusion / greater depth of field.

  What Rod ? relevance please?

Can a Daisy ring be made more flexible in diameter?..., e.g. So that not only do the "kite blades" spill wind, decreasing their TSR, but also The top ring itself which the kites are mounted onto reduces diameter in stronger wind. Thus hopefully affecting stability (by the relation of the generating surfaces diameter to their tether ring distance) and returning a more constant power by entering a smoother "survival" profile...

I reckon there's two or three ways to go about this... maybe more... maybe they'll be feasible with enough fiddling.

1: flexy ring method, This method can probably be discounted for massive scales as it involves an actual ring with all the usual compressive forces therein. With ring to hub tethers set between Daisy style kite blades around the ring... a front to back sine wave deformation could be imparted to the ring  reducing it's diameter.The kites are already spilling wind so this compression reduces overall profile further... would need to be arrayed for scalling

2 :  With 3 ring components. (a)An upwind, ground based, tension controlling ring (complex but feasible), (b) a slip constrictor ring and (c) a flown rope ring with a cuff.   

Imagine a cross between An  elastically realised laddermill slung under a taught Mothra / A Daisy construction but with the top ring being a rope with webbing cuff. The kites being pulled into position to set inside the ring. It needs a Mothra large enough to tension an elastic mesh with as many pulleys as necessary to make the rope path smooth enough to spin. Pulled taught by a Mothra, this rope band and cuff are tilting into wind. The band has internal tensioning, a central knot and running eye points.  The tilting band has lift.

The slip constrictor ring fits around the outside of the tilted band tethering and can be pulled from the ground toward the centre of the tilting band. Kite blade lines can be run through eyes in the constrictor ring, through the constrictor ring and through the cuff ring.

With all of the tensioning control and drive chain linking being mounted on the bottom ring.


3: another non scaling version of #1) The outer ring is made of inter connecting tubes (tent poles and cuffs) the tubes want to push each other apart elastically from within, whilst extra tethering tension would have the ring contract... The ring is made of alternate double ended hub rods and push rods. The tether entering the centre of the hub rod pulls hard to retract the push rods.. whilst either an internal spring or elastic at the the double ended cuff rod tried to pull the push rod out on a track  ...

Any more ideas on how to actively scale a ring of kites without horrendous weight implication?

Please feel free to slate this if you think it's gibber.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8898 From: roderickjosephread Date: 3/24/2013
Subject: Re: Eye iris sphincter muscle as inspiration for energy handling
Actually with solution #2...
if the whole of the front face components other than pulleys are elastic...
When gusts or greater winds come...
Can the mothra uniformly release it's elastic mesh front?
or can the mothra decrease it's front face area?
or both?
That sounds simpler.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8899 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 3/25/2013
Subject: Re: AWEC Dishonesty?

JohnO,

 

Concerning "The Airborne Wind Energy Consortium unites the stakeholders of the industry into a single, focused voice."

 

Yes,KiteGen,Tu Delft KitePower,KiteLab,Selsam,Honeywell and many other...are not within Airborne Wind Energy Consortium.But it does not prove dishonesty.Everyone acts in one's own interest.Besides AWEConsortium' website seems to not be updated.

 

It is possible there was a dispute between AWEC and AWEIA (as founder of AWEIA you can know it better),but AWEC and AWEIA have different goals and ways.For AWEC:startups,conferences.For AWEIA,paticipative industry,knowledge with internet and the forum with no environmental impact,evolutive drafts.AWEIA can be proud of it.

 

On the forum to accuse systematically (out of technical considerations) other AWE actors (not only within AWEC) is counterproductive.

 

Look at the title of present post:"AWEC dishonesty?".After such a title is it really possible to wish welcome to AWEC for a better collaboration between AWEC and AWEIA?

 

PierreB

 

 

 

 

 

  

 






 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8900 From: dave santos Date: 3/25/2013
Subject: Re: AWEC Dishonesty?
Pierre,

Its insensitive to dismiss John Oyebanji's terrible AWEC experience, as no one has suffered more unfairly than him. We even have documentary evidence (on an HG Forum) of the mocking prejudice against his patient efforts that was rampant inside Joby Energy. AWEC disregard for John's persistent offering of the AWEIA olive-branch continues to this day, with Guido's rejection of any AWEIA role at the Berlin conference.

Let's review a few more complaints against AWEC (the full record will be a very long list). Please let us know if at any point you will no longer insist there is no basis for feeling AWEC and its elite members have ever acted as dishonest players. Also feel free to raise any public complaints about AWEIA, if you know of any.

So here are some further major instances of very acutely perceived AWEC dishonesty. Many of the issues were covered in detail by past Forum discussion-
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8901 From: Doug Date: 3/25/2013
Subject: Re: sphincter as inspiration
He he he - Sphincter - one more great band name!
One more great professor crackpot wind energy concept!

"Yah you see I vas sitting zere und zen I fahted - - zat, I said, ees en-ah-gy. Ureka, a "cutting" new veend en-ah-gy cone-cept! - Yahhhh!"

Let's try sphincterbines on a tower first and see how they pan out.
Would a sphincterbine festooned with whale bumps be inspired by hemorrhoids? What a funny spelling. And why are they not called asteroids anyway?

I can picture a pink, pulsating, sphincterbine now, puckering and unpuckering up there for all to enjoy! Forget the energy, this is going to be worth the sheer entertainment value!
:)
Doug S.
Festooning the landscape and sky, with pink puckering sphincterbines!
Pucker up!

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8902 From: Doug Date: 3/25/2013
Subject: Re: Wind Turbine Design Basics for AWES Deveopers
No mention of them because nobody pays attention to them. Why would anyone in a serious article about wind energy start talking about all the goofy ideas that don't work? The thing that makes them goofy is that nobody who knows what they're doing would give them a second thought. A plague of liars does NOT characterize the wind turbine design field. They just THINK they do. The real players are too busy to even notice them.
And of course, as you know very well Dave S., there is really only one significant improvement in wind energy this century, and that is the Superturbine! he he he!

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8903 From: Doug Date: 3/25/2013
Subject: Re: AWEC Dishonesty?
It goes beyond dishonesty. It is about sheer stupidity.
I'm surprised, since it's called "Mars", that NASA didn't jump on it like they did by crafting an AWE website featuring a blimp lifting a wind turbine on Mars. Last I knew, Mars had almost no atmosphere to support such a blimp/turbine combo... To me, honestly, it seems like an idea that could only appeal to an idiot! Kind of like a "lunar wind turbine" projects we used to joke about... OK, admittedly only "my opinion" (after passing high school physics). Should someone conduct an analysis to determine whether a rendering of a blimp lifting a wind turbine on Mars is dishonest?

At this point, is it really all you have left to keep talking about whether Magenn was dishonest? Is that as obvious as pointing out that Helen Keller had some sensory issues?

It's not just Magenn that's dishonest. Magenn was just so simple even another complete idiot was able to spot it.

What about the more subtle, possible dishonesty going on today?
What about million-dollar kite-reeling systems that have not shown, as a first step, that if they had an unlimited pulling force available for free, whether it would pencil out to try to produce utility-scale electricity intermittently, using a winch?

I have seen no evidence that a winch is available with the cost and longevity, compared to power, that could ever make 4-cent electricity, even if the computer-guided kite part were free! This is a far cry from extracting a bit of juice back from an existing (already paid-for, indoor) winch in an elevator system. So maybe all the reeling systems are JUST as much of a lie as Magenn, just not as easy to analyze and spot for an educated bystander.

I seem to remember Dave S. stating in no uncertain terms that a flapping bose-einsten something-or-other was going to revolutionize airborne wind energy. Was that another Magennesque lie? Does AWE have a new word now?

Maybe we need a Magennesque Mannequin - a flying, rotating, Sta-Puf Marshmallow Man!

Have a beautiful day!
:)
Doug S.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8904 From: dave santos Date: 3/25/2013
Subject: Geothermal AWE Concept

Perhaps the ultimate renewable energy source is Geothermal. Iceland's electricity is 100% geothermal; a superb baseload energy resource, not intermittent, like sun or wind.

In most of the world, geothermal energy is found too deep to be economic yet, even though drilling tech is now marginally able to go the distance (~10km). A major barrier is the fuel cost of mobile energy to drill the extensive heat channel networks that gather the steam to drive steam-generators.

AWE looks potentially well suited to drive geothermal drilling operations by direct kinetic transfer. The drillhead could even be a capstan driven by a kite-cable, somewhat like an ancient bow-drill. AWE as intermittent but cheap windpower could be a key to unlocking abundant geothermal baseload power. 

This idea springs from an earlier KiteLab Group "kite-to-turbines" concept, whereby a needy community might get started at minimal capital-cost with AWE, and thereby finance permanent wind turbines.

CC BY NC SA

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8905 From: dave santos Date: 3/25/2013
Subject: Re: AWEC Dishonesty?
Doug wrote-

"I seem to remember Dave S. stating in no uncertain terms that a flapping bose-einsten something-or-other was going to revolutionize airborne wind energy. Was that another Magennesque lie? 

I bet you will not be able to find any such claim. If you could, i would retract it, with an apology. My intent is to consistently propose testing all ideas as the proper way to determine validity, flapping included. 

The truth is, you are the most to blame for exaggerated claims on the Forum, not Magenn, Joby, Makani, or any other AWEC member. In your previous message today, just before this one, you repeated the tiresome claim-

"there is really only one significant improvement in wind energy this century, and that is the Superturbine!"

You will find no one the AWES Forum as prolific or hypocritical as you in making exaggerated windpower claims. I do not think you are as dishonest as AWEC claimants, since you do not hide from answering to the open AWE community, nor do you rob millions from investors with false claims.



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8906 From: roderickjosephread Date: 3/25/2013
Subject: Re: sphincter as inspiration
Ah come on,
Seriously you can call a company JOBY... and that's not toilet humour at it's highest somehow? for crying out loud...
and then you think a sphicter-turbine has some sort of potty mouth value?
worlds gone mad

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8907 From: Bob Stuart Date: 3/25/2013
Subject: Re: Geothermal AWE Concept
Kites also seem suitable particularly for impact drills, where they can be used.  

However, it is not necessary to drill to get huge amounts of geothermal power, you just have to park over a hydrothermal vent on the seabed.  There's one field about 200 miles west of Vancouver that could feed fifty of the biggest undersea cables ever installed.  The challenges are the same as on land - keep the hot liquid from either dissolving or encrusting your apparatus.  Calling that an opportunity, it might be possible to grow most of the required tubing from mineral deposits by managing the process.  Improvements in robotics are shifting the economics toward a sea-floor facility, rather than a seaborne platform.  The by-product deposit stream is of considerable interest to the mining industry, too.  

Bob Stuart

On 25-Mar-13, at 2:28 PM, dave santos wrote:


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8908 From: Bob Stuart Date: 3/25/2013
Subject: Re: sphincter as inspiration
Sorry, that's only scottish slang.  I'd only ever heard it from my parents, and Billy Connolly.

Bob Stuart

On 25-Mar-13, at 2:51 PM, roderickjosephread wrote:


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8909 From: roderickjosephread Date: 3/25/2013
Subject: Re: sphincter as inspiration
Bob, don't deny it.
my wife's a doctor and she told me everyone does a joby.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8910 From: dave santos Date: 3/25/2013
Subject: Impact Drills, Pile Driving
Bob wrote-

"Kites also seem suitable particularly for impact drills, where they can be used."  

AKA Hammer Drills, but most of these operate at fairly high frequencies and kites operate at lower frequencies. 

I am not sure if Kite Pile-Driving has been mentioned on the Forum, but its in my mind to counter sealevel rise, and would nicely match in natural frequency to kite actions, in lifting and dropping a large driving mass. 

CC BY NC SA




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8911 From: Bob Stuart Date: 3/25/2013
Subject: Re: Impact Drills, Pile Driving
I've seen shale drilled using a hollow pile-driver tip.  For deep holes, this might be augmented with a staged lift for the debris.  The intermittent pull of a kite might also be employed on deep-well pumps.

Bob

On 25-Mar-13, at 3:24 PM, dave santos wrote:


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8912 From: dave santos Date: 3/25/2013
Subject: Nice Ampyx Flight Videos
Nice detail work. They are moving toward KULeuven's Rotating-Arm launch and land (but i did not notice video evidence of this).

Its hard to imagine such extreme safety and reliability claims, as Aympx makes, can be validated for at least a decade. Extremely low Airspace Streamtube and Land-Footprint efficiency of this AWES down-select is also evident (even if the power-to-weight is pretty good). But its great for them to make a kiteplane credible effort. How do they charge the onboard batteries?

The guy in the video is Richard, whose 2011 promise to reform AWEC, as its President, has clearly not been met yet either... but we hope and wait.

http://www.ampyxpower.com/PowerPlane.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VASTPw3fYCY&feature=plcp
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8913 From: dave santos Date: 3/25/2013
Subject: Pile-Driving Kite Rig
A traditional pile-driver drops a weight from a short height onto the pile. Its a sort of small moving tower structure that holds the pile and guides the hammer-mass. Its often suspended from a crane to move it about.

To drive a pile-driver by kite can be done by guying or otherwise holding firm the tower-top so that the kite can pull sideways from there (over a roller) to haul the weight up. A second method is to run the haul-rope back down to the ground, and let the kite pull from that point.

A special requirement is to quick-release the hammer mass without perturbing the kite. An optimal kite pile-driver may therefore require a mechanical buffer stage, to isolate the kite from the "negative spike". The power kite can also in principle serve to move and erect the pile-driver. 

Competing with all sorts of diesel equipment may be a higher-profit niche role for kites than competing with (non carbon off-set) utility-rate power. 

CC BY NC SA
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8914 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/25/2013
Subject: New record for lightest "solid" ?
http://phys.org/news/2013-03-ultra-light-aerogel.html 

Kite-wing stuffing?    Other uses in AWES?

A new record for low density "solid" material?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8915 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/25/2013
Subject: Re: New record for lightest "solid" ?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8916 From: roderickjosephread Date: 3/26/2013
Subject: Re: Pile-Driving Kite Rig
A kite system can drive it's own piles. Then lift and erect a taller platform to tether from.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8917 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2013
Subject: Re: Pile-Driving Kite Rig

 
Rod wrote- "A kite system can drive it's own piles. Then lift and erect a taller platform to tether from."


The kite system would need be in a pile-driving mode before driving its own piles, and also remove them as it goes, since the kite's own "starter " piles are not the permanent work. For guy-line use, i was thinking maybe auger anchors, easy to reverse out. I think the low-anchorpoint design looks most practical for moving along a pile-field. The rig can take on its ballast-mass onsite, including the hammer itself, which could be a steel tube filled with even just water.

One great aspect to wood piles is that they can comprise a considerable Carbon Sink using fast-growing farm trees. I have seen 300 year old piles under Mexico City (like Venice's 1000 year old foundation piles), whose wood looked fresh!

See next Green House Gas Kite Solutions note for a pile-drive connection.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8918 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2013
Subject: Green House Gas Kite Solutions (and "Cooperative Marketing Pitch")

The AWES Forum first presented the idea of sequestering excess atmospheric CO2 into megascale AWES line-and-membrane infrastructure. This was just a starting concept, since the vast kite network so created could go on to sequester carbon for all purposes, like driving farmed wood (carbon) piles along drowning coastlines. It may be that harvesting CO2 with crops, to underpin new Venices and Tenochitlans in, say, Bangladesh, will be characterize the ultimate resolution of the greenhouse gas crisis. 

Even once we correct the excess CO2, the ice caps would long lag in rebuilding without an Ice Age, so AWE's next job would be to restore the lost ice by desalinating and transporting fresh water back into place.

One again we see that kites maybe are not best understood as direct competitors to conventional windpower or existing powerplants and supply grids. Kites will boost and clean up the old plants, but they might also extract atmospheric CO2 faster than it is pumped out by the gas turbines (emerging standard supply). The Forum has also noted that hydrating desert caliche-powder into calcium carbonate sequesters CO2.

After decades of study, as best as a small circle of us can tell, Kites can save the World, or it may not get saved. That's a "KiteLab Marketing Pitch" , generously intended to advance all kite ventures that are creating or will create effective AWES. Its based on the cooperative global self-interest action-model. Its a celebratory success that's proposed, not the selfish profit models and banal hype of the petty AWE VCs that the AWEC model embraces.

Investor Tip- The Kite Power Cooperative, under the Mondragon Model, may far outperform any AWEC strategy, with less business and engineering risk. A diversified Basket Investment that includes open AWE may be the safest.

These are all pretty strong claims...
.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8919 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2013
Subject: The AWE Marketing Myth of "Greater Capacity Factor" (?)

Many AWES ventures insist they will deliver a greater capacity factor than wind towers, based on the logic that the wind above tower-level (but below regulatory ceilings of ~600m) is more constant.

Do these claims account for the fact that, unlike a tower, an AWES must first harvest enough energy to keep its mass aloft? Do they account for the far higher "down-time" that safe aviation systems require, compared to wind towers? The heuristic position is that these sorts of factors must be accounted for to validate these optimistic capacity factor claims. 

Where is the evidence that companies who make these claims are honestly include all the major negative factors in calculations? They do not say... pretending such questions do not exist. The problem is a lack of Public Accountability on the part of aggressively marketed AWE ventures. We cannot even question AWE marketing claims openly in the VC stage-managed conferences.

AWE ventures may prosper in-the-short-run on unsupported extreme claims (like energy at LCOE <2 cents per kwh), but AWE investment bubbles based on marketing hype face total collapse, so the healthier knowledge-culture can prevail. The Forum does a service to all in trying to pop AWE bubbles as they form, before the damage is too great (like abusive business empires founded on successful fraud). The companies making such claims need to questioned in public in a systematic way, not just on technical grounds, but also with regard to honest Business Ethics.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8920 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2013
Subject: Tracing The Myth of "AWE at a LCOE <2 cents an hour"

The companies making the most extreme claims of cheap AWE are probably echoing old "back-of-the-envelope" guesswork by pioneering theorists. Its funny that monetary-inflation is not accounted for when companies repeat these "grandpa" prices, but inflation clearly counts. Perhaps we can someday fully trace the historic family tree of AWE pricing guesswork and hype.

The only way to properly base such AWE claims now, with so much more knowledge available, is to make a quite careful an complex economic analysis. One takes every conceivable factor into account to tally what can only be a best-guess. ARPA-E commisioned Makani to do such a study, which was due last year; but if it exists, its hidden from the public. No other state-of-the-art analysis exists- early financial analysts like Gerard-Hassan mostly just sketch-out the basic opportunity, while parroting the marketing claims. High-cost factors, like an aviation cost-structure, seem neglected. That's not accurate enough for serious best-practice validation.

Some of the AWE merketers have become aware of the dangers of making these public claims and are changing them to be vaguer and less falsifiable, but still misleading. "Cheaper than fossil fuel" is the new VC mantra, but don't expect a full explanation.





Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8921 From: Doug Date: 3/26/2013
Subject: Re: AWEC Dishonesty?
I think if you waste any more time trying to figure out if "The Professor" is truly a "Crackpot", you will have wasted your whole life away proving nothing except what wind people already know:

There is an endless parade of idiots claiming that existing wind energy is not viable, and that their solution will fix everything.
Most of these would-be innovators never got up to speed on what is known, and what they offer is usually long-disproven. In fact most of their claims make no sense whatsoever if scrutinized.

Dave S. get it through your head:
If you analyze 1000 wind energy "improvements" you'll be lucky if one is valid. Almost ALL are invalid. Almost ALL can be called either lies or mistakes, or the result of lack of understanding.

In other words, the entire landscape of improvements in wind energy is almost 100% lies. The industry ignores them except in the rare instance that an improvement actually emerges. Most of the time, the lies are easy to spot. No laborious analysis is necessary, just a working knowledge of what works and what sorts of things don't work.

Any person who understands wind energy could analyze why Magenn was a lie in less than one second! I am not exaggerating. It can be analyzed and disproven far faster than the words could be spoken to explain the analysis. I'd say it could be analyzed and disproven in about 1/2 second, but of course putting it into words would take far longer.

Now that, to me, is bizarre - to see people putting millions of dollars into something that can be easily disproven in 1/2 second!
It is an amazing level of ignorance that is difficult to fathom. Anything that powerful might be our best natural resource! Can we find a way to make power from ignorance? Well maybe not, but it sure can generate a lot of cash!

What do you think you are, Detective Columbo? Yes Magenn was a lie. Are you still trying to convince yourself? I agree, it is bizarre to see SO MANY lies, packed like sardines, into an imagined cloak of credibility....

They will ALL be essentially lies, or misunderstandings, until you get one that works! This is not that complicated. If it works, it works, if not it was another lie. Most don't work so most are lies. Nothing new.

You might go back and check out your own past statements and predictions of success and tally how many have come true thus far.
:)
Doug S.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8922 From: Doug Date: 3/26/2013
Subject: Re: How to raise ~8,000,000 USD from investors...(Magenn Claims)
Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh....
Magenn is dumb. Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh....
Yup they are really dumb. dumn dumb dumb. And they are liars. Dumb liars. (and probably enjoying a nice vacation with all that money) And their dumb lie was still the main defining image for AWE last I saw, on the Airborne website and all. duhhhhh from day 1. duh.

Imagine now that YOU understand how DUMB Magenn is, how RIDICULOUS the whole thing has looked from day 1 to people with experience in wind energy!

hey Dave S. The idea that any serious player would even ASSOCIATE themselves with such a ripoff is absurd. The idea that you are still talking about them means you are stuck in neutral yourself with nothing better to do. And the fact that I am analyzing YOU, analyzing Magenn makes ME the stupidest of all! Duhhhhh to me - I just realized. OMG I gotta stop. OK I am done. (no really!) :)

If you are in the mode to debunk...
Why not get a snapshot of whatever the NASA team has accomplished by now? Hold THEIR feet to the fire for while. To me, Magenn is too easy to pick on. They had no existing credibility. Picking apart Magenn is like a prizefighter being put into the ring with a newborn baby - there is not even a basis for a contest! There is NOTHING THERE! Go pick on NASA. That would be a bigger challenge and probably much more fun!

:)
Doug S.

--- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, dave santos <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8923 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2013
Subject: Re: AWEC Dishonesty?
Doug,

I know from a lifetime in testing that fine lessons are learned by observantly testing ideas we suppose to be junk. KiteLab's "Test Everything" philosophy is to extract knowledge even from known failures.  But don't just take my word on this-

The history of invention is full of stories where the inventor noticed an anomaly in a failed experiment, like Edison converting his failed high-speed telegraphy machine into the phonograph. Early materials science was driven by "failed experiments" where an unsought residue became an unexpected revolution.

You make KiteLab's use of this Grand Inventive Tradition sound like blindness. In fact, all our tests are made with "expert" predictions, that almost always are spot-on. It will be wonderful to test your SuperTurbine in a major fly-off on the same open basis as all the ideas you reject the worth of testing, and see just how well KiteLab Group predictions do (no other circle makes so many predictions).

To argue against Testing Everything is to allow AWE charlatans to continue to rob investors with the same quack ideas. Your pronouncements, right or wrong, do not replace the need to test, 

daveS
 




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8924 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2013
Subject: Re: How to raise ~8,000,000 USD from investors...(Magenn Claims)
Doug,

Magenn was not dumb, if Pierre is correct about "self interest" being the highest principle. Eight million dollars pays for a lot of self-interest.

The only downside so far is us Barking Dogs on the AWES Forum, with only Pierre really bothered by the open opinions about "dishonesty". Magenn is well paid not to care,

daveS


PS If you want to make Pierre complain, be more "systematic" (Descartian) in your public critiques (of AWEC member marketing dishonesty) :)
 
Doug wrote- "Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh....Magenn is dumb. Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh....
Yup they are really dumb. dumn dumb dumb. And they are liars. Dumb liars. (and probably enjoying a nice vacation with all that money) And their dumb lie was still the main defining image for AWE last I saw, on the Airborne website and all. duhhhhh from day 1. duh."



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8925 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 3/26/2013
Subject: Re: How to raise ~8,000,000 USD from investors...(Magenn Claims)


" And their dumb lie was still the main defining image for AWE last I saw, on the Airborne website and all."

 

That is a problem for AWE.

 

PierreB


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8926 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 3/26/2013
Subject: Is AWE advantageously workable?
By compiling Doug's remarks, of DaveS and others, mine, we arrive at a
surprising interrogation for the only forum on Airborne Wind Energy:is
AWE advantageously workable for an industrial use?

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8927 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2013
Subject: AWEIA, AWEC, and Magenn

Pierre has suggested an important principle for AEWIA and the Forum- 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8928 From: dave santos Date: 3/26/2013
Subject: Re: Is AWE advantageously workable?

Pierre asks- "IAWE advantageously workable for an industrial use?

Lets look at both sides of the question:

The Answer is Yes, if you count real kites. 

A Few Examples-

There are many Chinese precedents, but as the best old example, lets use historically well-documented Japanese Han Era lifting of workers and materials for major construction projects. Many other traditional examples from around the world are known, mostly at the cottage-industry scale (AWE-powered fishing, bird-scaring, signaling, etc).

Modern Weather Forecasting emerged with national kite networks (DE, UK, USA, etc). These weather kites were deployed on an industrial scope and scale (even causing major industrial accidents). For a several decades, all industry relied on kite weather data as the best available.

The latest large-scale industrial success is in the Sports Industry. No modern Sport Industry Sector has grown faster than Kite Sports, which are AWE-powered. Kite Surfing even became an Olympic Sport faster than any sport before. Pocock sold a few production kite buggy systems, almost two centuries ago.

SkySails is currently leading the way for large energy kites in the modern industrial world. There is little doubt that bulk-freight giant, Cargil Group, is on track to validate the displacing of bunker-diesel fuel by SkySail systems. With sulphur and carbon offsets, this is an especially economic socially-desirable industrial use. Dave Culp's KiteShip deserves special credit as a ship-kite pioneer, starting in the "70s. Polynesion mass-migration with kite canoes is a notable archaic "kite-ship" folk industry.


On the other hand-

For those who insist only on High-Complexity AWE, like Offshore Super-Duty Jumbo Composite Autonomous Aerobatic E-VTOL FlyGens (OSDJCAAEVFs), the Answer seems to be No, for now  :(




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8929 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/27/2013
Subject: Re: Is AWE advantageously workable?
Want to list 
AWE applications? 
Post in this forum!
And also consider making a note and description in 
for a tidy place to collect such. 
It is very certain that the collection is young
and incomplete. If you see a missing application, 
please describe such on both spaces. Thank you. 
Technical discussion and tech share may occur in "reply"
to each leading post.

JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8930 From: dave santos Date: 3/27/2013
Subject: Giant Kixelated LoadPath FlipWings (Mothra-FlipWing Hybrid)
Announcing AWE's New Baby, the Kixelated Loadpath FlipWing, whose parents are Mothra and FlipWing.

KiteLab Ilwaco continues to make and test FlipWings (since 2008), with small versions working at high TRL. They are very simple and cheap and seem to offer the highest power-to-weight potential of any WECS principle known; and thus can scale greatly. It has long been proposed that FlipWings can ultimately scale to fabric would be somewhat heavier, the sails closer trimmed, with more batten-spars closer-spaced along the leading edge.

It is crudely estimated that a single 300m FlipWing could rate at ~5MW, with a ~6,000m2 area (depending on windspeed, with an apparent wind of up to about 3/1 (like a TSR). The base price of such a wing would be low; only about 50k USD.

Such monster FlipWings are predicted to self-tack with good regularity, owing to increasing spring-mass with scaling. They will probably sound like large crashing surf; or even thunder, in high wind. Current concept rigs of mixed Arch-FlipWing configuration range from bird-like to krill-like, but with the biomimetic form flipped backward, to be driven, rather than driving. Crosslinked FlipWing AWE arrays would be quite close in spirit to Wayne's "Vertical Blind Affairs".

It will be quite exciting to fly-off such megascale designs against far-smaller more-complex contenders of comparable capital-cost.

--------------------------------------

A Note to Rod, who has been wonderfully modeling Mothras of his own variations. A further refinement is to design them to take on a wider-shouldered horse-shoe frontal shape to more closely fill the 600mH x 1200mW airspace. The central arch control section makes a sort point, so the supposed optimal form is like a curly-bracket on its side that closely fits the projected airspace rectangle.

CC BY NC SA