Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                           AWES8580to8629 Page 69 of 440.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8580 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/16/2013
Subject: Re: Theo Jansen and AWES?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8581 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/16/2013
Subject: Mothra hoist double-duty ducts Daisy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8582 From: dave santos Date: 2/17/2013
Subject: Ampyx in Saskachewan

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8583 From: harry valentine Date: 2/17/2013
Subject: Re: Ampyx in Saskachewan

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8584 From: Bob Stuart Date: 2/17/2013
Subject: Re: Ampyx in Saskachewan

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8585 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/17/2013
Subject: Mothra hosting flipwings by Rod Read, 17 Feb 2013

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8586 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/17/2013
Subject: Who wants Mothra to host Wayne German's Vertical Blinds?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8587 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/17/2013
Subject: Re: Ampyx in Saskachewan

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8588 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/17/2013
Subject: Re: Mothra hosting flipwings by Rod Read, 17 Feb 2013

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8589 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/17/2013
Subject: Harnessing the Energy of Thermopower Waves: Dr. Michael Strano

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8590 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/17/2013
Subject: Workday ends off AWES?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8591 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/17/2013
Subject: Re: Theo Jansen and AWES?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8592 From: Doug Date: 2/18/2013
Subject: Re: Mothra hosting flipwings by Rod Read, 17 Feb 2013

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8593 From: Doug Date: 2/18/2013
Subject: Re: Ampyx in Saskachewan

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8594 From: Doug Date: 2/18/2013
Subject: Re: Who wants Mothra to host Wayne German's Vertical Blinds?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8595 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/18/2013
Subject: Event on September 9th (Monday); then conference 10th and 11th (Tues

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8596 From: Doug Date: 2/18/2013
Subject: Superturbine Arrays

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8597 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2013
Subject: Conference Reforms or More-of-the-same? Fw: Airborne Wind Energy Con

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8598 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2013
Subject: True or False? //Re: [AWES] Re: Mothra hosting flipwings by Rod R

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8599 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2013
Subject: Final Call For Kite Agriculture Program Participation (Powering Ag C

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8600 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/18/2013
Subject: re: True or False?   //Re: [AWES] Re: Mothra hosting flipwings  by

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8601 From: roderickjosephread Date: 2/18/2013
Subject: True or False?   //Re: [AWES] Re: Mothra hosting flipwings  by

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8602 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2013
Subject: Re: True or False?   //Re: [AWES] Re: Mothra hosting flipwings  by

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8603 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2013
Subject: Toward Formal AWES Arch Validation //TUDelft ASSET Kite Arch Wind T

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8604 From: German Date: 2/18/2013
Subject: Re: Who wants Mothra to host Wayne German's Vertical Blinds?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8605 From: Doug Date: 2/18/2013
Subject: Re: Who wants Mothra to host Wayne German's Vertical Blinds?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8606 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/18/2013
Subject: Re: Ampyx in Saskachewan

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8607 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2013
Subject: Fw: [AWES] Re: Who wants Mothra to host Wayne German's Vertical Blin

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8608 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2013
Subject: Laddermill Clarifications

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8609 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2013
Subject: Re: Ampyx in Saskachewan

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8610 From: roderickjosephread Date: 2/19/2013
Subject: Re: Ampyx in Saskachewan

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8611 From: roderickjosephread Date: 2/19/2013
Subject: Fw: [AWES] Re: Who wants Mothra to host Wayne German's Vertical Blin

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8612 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/19/2013
Subject: Re: Ampyx in Saskachewan

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8613 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/19/2013
Subject: CSUS Senior Project

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8614 From: dave santos Date: 2/19/2013
Subject: AWE Corporate Stealth (NDAs) //Re: [AWES] Re: Ampyx in Saskachewan

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8615 From: dave santos Date: 2/19/2013
Subject: AWEC Spotted Online Seeking New Blood :)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8616 From: stephane Date: 2/19/2013
Subject: Re: AWEC Spotted Online Seeking New Blood :)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8617 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/19/2013
Subject: Re: AWEC Spotted Online Seeking New Blood :)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8618 From: dave santos Date: 2/19/2013
Subject: Stephane Unsubscribing //Re: [AWES] AWEC Spotted Online Seeking Ne

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8619 From: Bob Stuart Date: 2/19/2013
Subject: Fwd: [AWES] Ampyx in Saskachewan

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8620 From: Doug Date: 2/20/2013
Subject: Re: Fwd: [AWES] Ampyx in Saskachewan

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8621 From: Doug Date: 2/20/2013
Subject: Re: Ampyx in Saskachewan

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8622 From: Doug Date: 2/20/2013
Subject: Re: Laddermill Clarifications

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8623 From: Doug Date: 2/20/2013
Subject: Re: Who wants Mothra to host Wayne German's Vertical Blinds?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8624 From: Doug Date: 2/20/2013
Subject: True or False? //Re: [AWES] Re: Mothra hosting flipwings by Rod R

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8625 From: dave santos Date: 2/20/2013
Subject: Re: Ampyx in Saskachewan

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8626 From: dave santos Date: 2/20/2013
Subject: Re: True or False? //Re: [AWES] Re: Mothra hosting flipwings by R

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8627 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/20/2013
Subject: Re: Welcome to this technology space: AirborneWindEnergy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8628 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 2/20/2013
Subject: Mothra and Superturbine

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8629 From: dave santos Date: 2/20/2013
Subject: Re: Mothra and Superturbine



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8580 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/16/2013
Subject: Re: Theo Jansen and AWES?
Analogy for AWES evolving to control themselves and surviving on their own?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8581 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/16/2013
Subject: Mothra hoist double-duty ducts Daisy
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8582 From: dave santos Date: 2/17/2013
Subject: Ampyx in Saskachewan
First Altaeros colonized Alaska, now Ampyx is in Canada. Apparently AWE starts are sorting alphabetically by latitude (with ZapKites probably headed for Antarctica :)  ).
 
Seems a bit early to announce kiteplane farms (What is their MTBF and launch-land method?), but time will tell...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8583 From: harry valentine Date: 2/17/2013
Subject: Re: Ampyx in Saskachewan
This is interesting news. Saskatchewan has some powerful winds that blow during winter.

Harry

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: santos137@yahoo.com
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 08:04:13 -0800
Subject: [AWES] Ampyx in Saskachewan

 

First Altaeros colonized Alaska, now Ampyx is in Canada. Apparently AWE starts are sorting alphabetically by latitude (with ZapKites probably headed for Antarctica :)  ).
 
Seems a bit early to announce kiteplane farms (What is their MTBF and launch-land method?), but time will tell...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8584 From: Bob Stuart Date: 2/17/2013
Subject: Re: Ampyx in Saskachewan
The winds here sometimes blow well for days, but long calms are more frequent.  Still, as the article notes, some of our windmills hit 40% of capacity.  This may change.  We are having our first "mostly cloudy" winter ever, a huge change from "mostly sunny" and the snow accumulation is almost setting records.  
I'm glad to see Regina city taking some initiative.  Regina the Provincial Government is totally owned by the Uranium miners and their friends, who recycle some of the gifts they receive back into campaign dollars.

Bob Stuart

On 17-Feb-13, at 10:29 AM, harry valentine wrote:
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8585 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/17/2013
Subject: Mothra hosting flipwings by Rod Read, 17 Feb 2013
Mothra hosting flipwings  by Rod Read, 17 Feb 2013
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8586 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/17/2013
Subject: Who wants Mothra to host Wayne German's Vertical Blinds?
Who wants Mothra to host Wayne German's Vertical Blinds?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8587 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/17/2013
Subject: Re: Ampyx in Saskachewan
Study clip from the article: 

"This huge economic opportunity depends on meeting the electrical utility essentials for reliability, efficiency, and financial and operations risk."

Electricity-utility oversight regarding:
  • Reliability
  • Efficiency
  • Financial risk
  • Operations risk
Downselecting  from the AWE opportunities for "farms" to the Ampyx kiteplane without there having been even one flyoff internationally among members of the opportunity pool takes a risk that will surely matter for us all.  The investments that may go into the southern Saskatchewan effort could otherwise support comparative-AWE followed by a more informative furthering of upperwindpower.  
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8588 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/17/2013
Subject: Re: Mothra hosting flipwings by Rod Read, 17 Feb 2013
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8589 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/17/2013
Subject: Harnessing the Energy of Thermopower Waves: Dr. Michael Strano
Prediction: AWES of future will use "thermopower waves".
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8590 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/17/2013
Subject: Workday ends off AWES?
Technician working at the top of a high point in an AWES ends his or her workday with a flight home, or a tourist in some DB Murray "Levitecture"  wants a quick exit, or some airborne architecture resident wants a rapid way to terra firma: 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8591 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/17/2013
Subject: Re: Theo Jansen and AWES?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8592 From: Doug Date: 2/18/2013
Subject: Re: Mothra hosting flipwings by Rod Read, 17 Feb 2013
Flipping, flapping, flopping, and flagging:
All proven ways NOT to do wind energy!
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8593 From: Doug Date: 2/18/2013
Subject: Re: Ampyx in Saskachewan
Are we seeing the difference between progress and press releases yet?

Does this article define anything new whatsoever? Or is it just one more "journalist" repeating what we've been hearing for years now?

Any new information here? Same story, different location? Or could this article have been written a couple of years ago? Could this same exact text be used with the names of other AWE "teams" subsitituted?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8594 From: Doug Date: 2/18/2013
Subject: Re: Who wants Mothra to host Wayne German's Vertical Blinds?
What distinguishes "vertical blinds" from "laddermill"?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8595 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/18/2013
Subject: Event on September 9th (Monday); then conference 10th and 11th (Tues

Notice: Monday Sept. 9th will be a "spectacular event". [?????? No details yet. ]

==================================================================

Airborne Wind Energy Conference AWEC 2013
"Save the Date": September 10th/11th 2013 in Berlin

AWEC 2013 – Save the Date

 

The German Airborne Wind Energy Association (BHWE Bundesverband Höhenwindenergie e.V. i.G.) cordially invites you to participate in the Airborne Wind Energy Conference

 

AWEC 2013,

 

to be held in

 

Berlin, Germany, on September 10th/11th, 2013.

 

Please note that an additional and very spectacular event before the conference is planned on the afternoon September 9th  and that we'll have an evening-reception on September 9th, 2013.

 

Please save the date and spread the news.

 

Further information, as well as a call for abstracts, will be published at www.awec2013.de and sent to you soon.

 

Airborne Wind Energy (AWE) is an emerging field in the renewable energy technologies that aims to substitute energy production with fossil fuels on an economical basis. A characteristic feature of the various AWE concepts is the use of tethered flying devices to access wind energy at higher altitudes with more consistent wind.

Starting with a few isolated activities about a decade ago, the scientific and industrial community has grown considerably. Several teams operate technology demonstrator systems in the electricity output range up to 60 kW. International Airborne Wind Energy Conferences have been held in Chico, CA, USA (2009), Stanford, CA, USA (2010), Leuven, Belgium (2011) and Hampton, VA, USA (2012).

The conference will bring together politicians, companies, institutions, researchers, scientists, investors, students and all people interested or active in the innovative field of Airborne Wind Energy.

Please save the date: We look forward to welcoming you in Berlin on September 10th/11th, 2013!

 

With kind regards,

On behalf of the Organization Committee

Guido Luetsch

President

BHWE Bundesverband Höhenwindenergie e.V. i.G.

(German Airborne Wind Energy Association)

and Chairman of the Organization Committee

 

Guido Lütsch

Präsident

BHWE Bundesverband Höhenwindenergie e.V. i.G.

c/o Heussen GmbH

Joachimsthaler Str. 12

10719 Berlin
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8596 From: Doug Date: 2/18/2013
Subject: Superturbine Arrays
Hi Everyone:
Gaetano of WOW asked me recently by e-mail, why I was not publicly coming out in support of suspending Superturbine(R) arrays from Kite Arches.
The answer is "Yes" I am (of course) supportive of SuperTurbine(R) arrays, (which our latest patents illustrate and discuss), and of course I "support" supporting them (get it? Support? Supporting?) any way that makes sense!
:)
Doug Selsam
http://www.selsam.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8597 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2013
Subject: Conference Reforms or More-of-the-same? Fw: Airborne Wind Energy Con
Is a 2013 "BHWE AWE Conference" good news or bad news for global AWE movement? 

The stricken AWEC AWE conference franchise is seemingly being rebranded by an unknown new national organization (BHWE) purporting to organize our global AWE community conference. There are a lot of questions unanswered about the secretive biz-practices and AWE politics BHWE President Guido Luetsch practices. Guido claims to have suspended executive participation with NTS, supposedly removing those unresolved issues from discussion, but this looks like hollow pretense.

In the name of the Open-Source R&D community, the following questions are hereby posed on the AWES Forum (please feel free to add to this list)-
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8598 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2013
Subject: True or False? //Re: [AWES] Re: Mothra hosting flipwings by Rod R

Doug- "Flipping, flapping, flopping, and flagging:
All proven ways NOT to do wind energy!"

False. Reciprocating wings are still the champions of historic wind power.

Doug always seems to forget that tacking* sailing ships are the number one historic wind power application, by power, with 10MW equivalent versions going back over a century. The largest newest HAWTs are only barely entering this power-class (and they don't roam the world on the breezes)

Mothra tech is most closely related to the great sailing ships, with their "clouds-of-sails". Flipwings clearly work with a high power-to-weight in small demos, and have clearly not been proven inferior for megscale AWE, but need to be tested against all comers (like Doug's unproven "rotating towers")

* "Flipping, flapping, flopping, and flagging"
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8599 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2013
Subject: Final Call For Kite Agriculture Program Participation (Powering Ag C

This is a final call for participation in a grant application effort by the World Kite Museum. for a total of up to 1.5 million USD, for the Powering Ag Challenge, as previously announced on the AWES Forum.

Are you a power kite expert? Do you have special agricultural, or technical skills that a Kite Ag project could use? Do you have inventive Kite Ag concepts to develop and test?

Please email me ASAP with your input. There will still be many ways to participate after the grant is won, but now is the time for all key major participants to be on board, so that concept narratives and budgets are as well developed as possible.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8600 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/18/2013
Subject: re: True or False?   //Re: [AWES] Re: Mothra hosting flipwings  by

A boat moves whereas a wind system powering generator is globally still.The rotor is the good way to unify movements forward and behind.Probably reciprocating motion powering generator is less efficient,but there is a small luck so that the weakness of its efficiency is compensated by a larger swept area.As reciprocating motion I think to reel-in/out with long strokes.Indeed short strokes involve a fast alternation upwind and downwind pratically destroying the global power since it is difficult to depower the wing during short recovering moves.Morever the wing does not have time to take all the speed during short power moves.

 

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8601 From: roderickjosephread Date: 2/18/2013
Subject: True or False?   //Re: [AWES] Re: Mothra hosting flipwings  by
Using it as a pump...
Can we consider a Mothra as half a wheel.?
So with the wheel going clockwise, (left lifting, right going down)

each end of the catenary is at opposite phase in a lifting and dropping a heavy actuation a short cycle.

imagine the actuation to be something like the obelisk lifting video.

A mothra can be manipulated to impart huge force due to the instantaneous collective sqm coverage it can achieve.

The grid of material formed by
outward layers (vertical layers at the top)
of kixels and stacked front to back (shown as three rows in my last video)
and radiated flipwing blades (don't have to be flipwing)
can be steered / vectored by changing the relative positions of the front catenary and back catenary foot points.....

This is not a fast tacking method. Full force would not be expected at the foot instantly. A cycle (15 degrees turn of our half wheel) may take up to 15 minutes.. or more... it's still force and motion. same scalar equation same energy.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8602 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2013
Subject: Re: True or False?   //Re: [AWES] Re: Mothra hosting flipwings  by
Pierre,

I have built and tested many different small rotor-based AWES (more than anyone, it seems). In comparison with single skin flipwings, solid rotors do not scale well, since they become too heavy to fly in normal wind at larger scales.

You also realize this, so your large WheelWind rotor concept uses thin flexible construction, requiring complex controls to operate. Please soon try to make a small working version suited to test against existing reciprocating-wing AWES models.

daveS

PS There is terrible confusion about what "Crosswind Power" is (in pure flow physics). While Loyd did not specifically discuss tacking wings, its clear they are not restricted to reeling upwind/downwind opertation. Rotors like SkyMill's in fact reel upwind/downwind. Makani's AWT pattern is tilted into the wind, so it does considerable upwind-downwind motion too. Arches develop tremendous static lift (a form of power) set exactly crosswind. We have greatly advanced our understanding of Crosswind Power in the thirty years since Loyd's classic paper.

A sailboat that only moves exactly crosswind back and forth ("beam reach") is in fact a case of Crosswind Power (as formally defined by Loyd). A sailboat can convert this motion to work energy by many means listed on this forum (make H2 fuel, reel crosswind, pull a turbine, charge cables or batteries, etc). Mothra supported flipwings can in principle produce crosswind power more purely than any tilted rotor. Only testing will finally determine if any rotor-based AWES concept can megascale and out-compete with dense arrays of flip-wings. I like both methods, and will follow the winner from testing...


 




==========================
I am sorry for the Yahoo "CSNBC Jobs" Spam Virus 
that hijacked the Contact List for this mail account. 
Please accept this apology for any trouble caused.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8603 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2013
Subject: Toward Formal AWES Arch Validation //TUDelft ASSET Kite Arch Wind T
This message regards a key KiteLab Group hypothesis that AWES kite arches will megascale with superior spacial efficiency and controllability. TUDelft ASSET kite studies done around 2008 produced validative kite arch data as an unsought byproduct of single-line paradigm experiments and simulations.

The wind tunnel work by TUDelft ASSET with parafoil and LEI kites inadvertently "tested" the arch configuration by the necessity to fly stock sport kites closely constrained within the tunnel walls. Since kites show dynamic similarity across a large spectrum of scale, the common sport traction-kite anchored near its wingtips was a realistic-enough scale-model test of inherent flight stability of megascale arches proposed to be 600m high by 1km across. 

Similarly, numeric kite modeling, set up by Dr. Jeroen Breukels to study smaller virtual kites, gave a fairly realistic result for mega-scale wings, due to dynamic-similarity across scale. This analytic work with the "Kite Simulation Toolbox" modeled a fixed arch as an Adams Multibody Dynamics Simulation of "Kite with Tips Fixed". This was a partial pre-simulation, without a tether, suggesting the simplified control problem of the arch case.

A thin airbeam sparred version of the simulated fixed kite developed powerful "Dutch Roll" lateral oscillations. The thicker airbeam version was more damped (stable) in proportion. The high amplitiude forces show clear phasing for a smoothable output without long "yo-yo" reeling. Pitching modes were also shown, but with less powerful surges than side-to-side oscillation (follow link below).

While the ASSET results do not give exact megascale predictions, they are a credible independent indication that megascale kite arches have promise.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8604 From: German Date: 2/18/2013
Subject: Re: Who wants Mothra to host Wayne German's Vertical Blinds?
Even if you could boil laddermill down to it's single best potentials it was never more than a way to generate electircal power from the traction forces that would only be generated in "drag mode" by generating more power being blown down wind that is consumed by returning upwind again. This is why I offered to take the astronaut guy (I often have mental blocks with names) and turn him over my knees and spank him. Now I think we should take out everyone that persists in advocating generating electricity via drag mode and shoot them ane put them out of our misery. Also, the laddermill was any number of mechanical engineer's worst nighmares that they contunally resurrect and I continually lay to rest again. Joe could you get a sawed off shot gun and hold their attention long enough that they finally come to realize among other things that generating wind power via drag mode is inherently a drag if not much drag.



Actually, the drag mode guys are such a drag that we should drag them out and over a cliff. Then the wind rushing up would provvide a decent descent during which they would get to know how beneficial drag mode can be in about the only way the drag mode can be beneficial.



But the real answer then is laddermill in an antiquated idea about how an imaginary ferris wheel might go round and round and generate elecrticity from the wind in drag mode while wings would attach and detach from the main wheel in the best mechanicial example of a rude goldbrick design in the last millenium.


Basically, if you could buy a wind tubine with four blades that were all a thousand feet from their hubs to their tips then you could cut it in half from the top to the bottom so that each half then had two blades each, then you could move the right half a mile further right and fill in with blades on rails between each half. Then you could apply a few screws and viola you would have the vertical blinds in the "on rails" version. Basically, it would look like God's gift in the form of an astrronimal wind turbine -- only to have God get mad and nearly stomp it flat so one track of blades might all pull right in a gang and those that are below might all pull left -- and so the blades would then cirulate on or off the monstrously large half turbines which mechanical engineers will have come to love so intently.


But in our fraternites how about separating those that propose generating electricity using lift mode and push the trap door button for the rest?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8605 From: Doug Date: 2/18/2013
Subject: Re: Who wants Mothra to host Wayne German's Vertical Blinds?
Hey Wayne:
You must have missed all the discussions here, of Laddermills and sideways laddermills of the past. They have both drag and lift aspects depending on whether you constrain them to only crosswind travel, at which point they are 100% lift-based. Only idiots bother with drag-based turbines, as you point out, and all should be put out of your misery, or at least out to pasture. Let's include flippers, floppers, and flappers too. Drag-based reciprocating turbines were superseded 2000 years ago.

A lift-based sideways laddermill tested in Tehachapi in the 1980's has been called the biggest ripoff in the history of wind energy. I guess they raised millions(?) for something that did nothing. Look it up if you can find it. I would not want to be standing near where the blades make that hairpin 180 turn at 120 mph! The windfarm was called Oak Creek. Of course the machine broke. It's been mentioned more than once on this list. See cut-and-paste below.
-Doug S.

Dear Joe:
Yes I invented the laddermill. And I drew up the concept and had it witnessed
and notarized. However I did not publicize it, or publish it in any way at the
time (1970's). Therefore, the Ockels patent does not infringe me as far as I
can see and is not invalidated since I kept the losing design to myself, seeing
a much better version was possible that simply spun. In short, I paid
attention, and I "got it". Nobody had to drag me kicking and screaming through
the facts. I just read the pamphlet and acted on it.
The reason I did not patent it was that it had simply been the first idea that
had occurred to me in my state of childhood kite-flying ignorance, having not
read much, if any, scientific literature on wind energy, at that time.

I quickly realized that this design had severe challenges of line-twisting,
icing, etc., but more importantly, as I have been trying to explain, it was a
drag-based turbine with with each blade traveling in a reciprocating cycle.
Therefore it was never going to make even a fraction of the power of blades
traveling across the wind. I realized right away that what was needed was a
stack of many levels of rotating kites, and that attaching these rotating kites
at the center guided their movement and countered centrifugal force. Of course
at that point it is just following progress in aviation in general to see that
the blades (kites) needed to be most optimally slender and provided with shaped
airfoils, like gyrocopters.

So in essence the reason I didn't patent the "laddermill" or even give it a cute
name is that it immediately revealed its weaknesses, while suggesting a machine
that was many times more efficient.

In short, laddermill would have been a waste of time to pursue because it was a
piece of crap, using kites traveling upwind and downwind, not able to make much,
if any, usable power. That's where I was at in the 1970's having read a
pamphlet or 2 on the known art of wind energy. You might note that despite the
design now having been publicized for 10 years, you don't see any working
laddermills out there.

I might point out for those who might be interested that a sideways groundhugger
laddermill WAS tested in Tehachapi at Oak Creek windfarm back in the 1980's and
it was a failure. I have heard of it and maybe seen pictures but don't know the
details. To be successful you have to move past losing designs that clearly
have fatal flaws and get on to what works and stick with it til you get it up
and running. Thanks for asking.

Doug S.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8606 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/18/2013
Subject: Re: Ampyx in Saskachewan

Ampyx Power 50 minutes fully automatic flight -  but without periodic recovering phases,is not it? PowerPlane(R) should work as reel-in/out system,and both sound and image do not show any reel-in phase,so any reel-out phase.

 

PierreB 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8607 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2013
Subject: Fw: [AWES] Re: Who wants Mothra to host Wayne German's Vertical Blin
Wayne,

Thanks for a colorful reply to Doug, with helpful details about your kite energy vision. Let me add some clarifications-

Everyone confuses your "Vertical Blinds" AWES concepts with many ideas of similar description. It would help to provide a technical illustration, or even better, a scale demo, to put doubts to rest about exactly how your idea works (Dave Lang specifically asked for more clarity and validation, a couple of years ago).

Every AWES is a mix of lift and drag. Miles Loyd showed formally that drag-force is a useful aerodynamic component of kite power, comparable to lift itself (given a typical system flying at 45 degrees elevation; L/D = 1). Drag is a key component of max power from a wing in wind, as  Pocock and modern traction kiters have well established. Drag-dominated schemes may also do OK in ROI competition, if they can be made cheap enough. ROI is the key parameter, not L/D per se, and proper testing will cover even poor ideas, to put them to rest (to thwart investment fraud).

Wubbo Ockels is the name of the Dutch astronaut, and a personal friend to many of us. Please do not be so rude to him, and go easy on old early ideas; long since superseded by later concepts (like the SpiderMill). The original Selsam laddermill was the actual drag-dominated laddermill you describe, but Wubbo's version instead envisioned high L/D kiteplanes flying in a much taller geometry (more crosswind factor),

daveS



PS Forum moderators eventually act against unprofessional angst, putting the malefactors on hold. You are welcomed to be severe (but accurate) on technical grounds, in non-inflammatory language. The occasional emotional jab is OK, just be generally cool, and nobody will poke at you as you just did to others (in a single message)-
 
"...turn him over my knees and spank him...take out everyone...shoot them...put them out of our misery...worst nightmares...get a sawed off shot gun....drag them out and over a cliff...have God get mad...stomp it flat ... monstrously...push the trap door button..."
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8608 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2013
Subject: Laddermill Clarifications

Doug wrote- "A lift-based sideways laddermill tested in Tehachapi in the 1980's has been called the biggest ripoff in the history of wind energy."

This is very misleading critique of an AWES concept. This tower-based "groundhugger"* WECS was not an AWES at all. It never had a chance to access better wind aloft. Its not fair nor accurate to call this a LadderMill, and to judge Wubbo Ockels' concept from this one odd experiment. 

Perhaps the most advanced LadderMill basis is kite-pro Ron Welty's all-soft version, which could in fact turn at fairly high speeds. It would also solve the problem Wayne mentions (of excess mechanical kiteplane train complexity). Pumping LadderMills also resolve the turning problem.

Facts: A soft crosswind pumping LadderMill remains in play as a viable AWES concept worth testing. It would tend to look like "vertical blinds". To beat conventional HAWTs, it would need to be megascale.


* Doug's correct characterization
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8609 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2013
Subject: Re: Ampyx in Saskachewan
Pierre,

Good Eye! Video is so rich, its hard to fake real success. Ampyx may just be ambiguously describing their non-generating sustained flight record, just as Makani also did. 

The deep problem is corporate secrecy, which only seems to wrongfully hide weaknesses from observers (and worse, hapless investors). Possibly, the NDA-driven AWE stealth companies will all fail, as transparently collaborating companies thrive. 

Its a wonderful new business era dawning; that punishes greedy secrecy, and rewards open cooperation,

daveS
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8610 From: roderickjosephread Date: 2/19/2013
Subject: Re: Ampyx in Saskachewan
Look again...
There is a definite reel in reel out cycle of about 5 figure 8's before retractions.
Well done Ampyx. very impressive.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8611 From: roderickjosephread Date: 2/19/2013
Subject: Fw: [AWES] Re: Who wants Mothra to host Wayne German's Vertical Blin

Wayne,

I was shocked and upset with your comments. I'm not trying for personal premature mortality.

You expressed some sick viewpoints given recent AWES history.  I feel I have wasted time in our personal correspondence.

I enjoy what I'm doing, I'm very happy with the physical results of my art. I can only apologise that you take offence at this approach.  If you don't mind I have some suggestions which may be helpful.

  1. Consider practising mindfulness  Non-Judging, Non-Striving Acceptance, Letting Go, Beginner's Mind, Patience, Trust..... (not sure that I strictly adhere to this but it seems a better start than issuing dogma as truth and directing people to websites which proclaim them to be the antichrist... thanks)
  2. Take a break and rediscover the joy of sex.  Learn to balance the selfless and selfish natures of love and desire.  Balance and juggle... it will help you in thinking why and how.
  3. Make awe inspiring works, be an artist... Don't fear, just do. I didn't even get an o grade in technical drawing.  I'm not designing kites to replace ICBMS like you suggest. They'd be crap.
  4. Try to analyse meshes of kites as complex systems... like a flock of starlings, where the whole is greater than the sum. Networks of nodes (kixels), links (line), and values (force vectors), map emergence functions (whole system collective swaying and tugging), brought on by iterations of simple rules. When the back foot of a massive arch is shifted in relation to the front foot, a few simple relational states will change throughout the system. The collective change will greatly influence the input state.

Again I apologise if you find my personal ideologies extreme, I don't want to stifle your creativity.

For everyone on this list... I hope you find the suggestions useful.

Is there a list of contacts already banned from contributing to the AWE yahoo forum? I hope not to be joining them soon.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8612 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/19/2013
Subject: Re: Ampyx in Saskachewan

You are right Rod,and I was wrong.Ampyx made both good video and real reel cycle.

 

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8613 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/19/2013
Subject: CSUS Senior Project
http://youtu.be/9GdbPsmtDbY    The machining video does not give many clues. 
Thanks to AWEIA for the heads up on this matter.    

Information is requested. 
Search came up empty. Note requesting more info was left at the video.
This topic thread will be receptive to details and discussion. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8614 From: dave santos Date: 2/19/2013
Subject: AWE Corporate Stealth (NDAs) //Re: [AWES] Re: Ampyx in Saskachewan
Roddy, Better Eye!

Actually, i did not watch the video, but trusted Pierre's videogrammetric report. Is any self-launch/land cycling solution shown? Too bad we can't just ask them, and they would talk freely.

Its so sad Ampyx has "gone stealth" (non-responsive to sensitive technical questions) after Dr. Ruiterkamp professed a philosophy of openess at AWEC2011. Perhaps Wolbert Allaart brought in the stealth with his Big Oil corporate venture background. I would ask them how well their wireless control signaling tolerates a cheap handheld jammer (GHz antennas seen as "whiskers" on the fuselage).

I recently watched this movie about a tobacco company scientist who broke his NDA to reveal a health cover-up, and the big news network trembled at revealing the story, since it could be sued for billions just for reporting NDA secured information.

A Warning to all Newbies- When a AWE venture shark tries to make you sign an NDA. RESIST. If forced to sign coercive paperwork, my past methods include putting "ud" in tiny letters after my signature (for "Under Duress"). If i feel the facts morally need to be shared, the UD would be an experimental defense, enough threat to disrupt legal certainty.

I personally consider trying to put a "transparency activist" like me under NDA as evidence of "bad-faith". As the ultimate precaution i practice sleight-of-hand, and will even go into my paper file to retrieve "my NDA". Now that the Age-of Secrecy is passing, i just laugh at proffered NDAs. I hope WOW will someday let me tell my hilarious Italian "Big AWE Investor" NDA story, since i forget if i put the "ud" in, and never did hunt down the original.

NDA wielding parties seek to hide weakness, almost never any actual "secret-sauce" recipe. In AWE, we have a moral case to quickly share knowledge ahead or global crisis. Exposing hidden venture weakness clears out rot. Investors who wield NDAs are hard to resist. Will we be able to sustain transparency against the pressures? Yes, if we stand together.

We should track all known AWE "old-school" stealth-companies, to see how well they end-up competing as insiders against the new transparent cooperatives emerging.



 




==========================
I am sorry for the Yahoo "CSNBC Jobs" Spam Virus 
that hijacked the Contact List for this mail account. 
Please accept this apology for any trouble caused.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8615 From: dave santos Date: 2/19/2013
Subject: AWEC Spotted Online Seeking New Blood :)
This is like bird-watching. The ultra-secretive Pay-to-Play AWE Consortium (AWEC) has surfaced! 

Apparently they are worried about 2013 conference attendance (2012 participation crashed under poor leadership, censorship, and boycott, with only about 35 attendees estimated). 

So now they look to be desperately reaching out to young new AWE players (who have not even completed a prototype!) on YouTube- California State University Sacramento Senior Project team P.A.W.E. Portable Wind Energy Project (which Joe just linked).

AWEC wrote this comment-

AWEConsortium 5 days ago

Best wishes for your success! Please send more information about the P.A.W.E. Project to info (at) aweconsortium (dot) org - Airborne Wind Energy Consortium. The annual international conference this year will be in Berlin, Germany in September.

So now they offer "Best Wishes" to non-members. Thats a good sign, no? (or more hype)

This is their empty youtube page- 

http://www.youtube.com/user/AWEConsortium

Which leads to the amazing GolfParrot, and the exciting trail goes cold.

Was this PJ, Guido, or someone else, working social media to breath new life into AWEC? Its probably a secret...

They should try open membership and transparency, with demo event, if they want all the best AWE players to bother attending.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8616 From: stephane Date: 2/19/2013
Subject: Re: AWEC Spotted Online Seeking New Blood :)
Hello Dave,

can you please remove my mail tom all the list of you groups

I like to read you when I like, but, I received to much mail, and don t read it, there is too much  for me.

thanks very much to understand

best regards

stephane

Le 19 févr. 2013 à 19:40, dave santos <santos137@yahoo.com


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8617 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/19/2013
Subject: Re: AWEC Spotted Online Seeking New Blood :)
Your status was just changed
to receiving no email.
But you may visit and post
news from you as you wish.
And you still have access
to files, links, photos.

Lift,
JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8618 From: dave santos Date: 2/19/2013
Subject: Stephane Unsubscribing //Re: [AWES] AWEC Spotted Online Seeking Ne
Dear Stephane,

Since your did not change the Subject line, its quite unclear if you are unhappy over critique of AWEC, or really sincere about too much message volume. 

There is a Yahoo list option to receive a "daily digest" (one email containing all the day's messages). Maybe that would help you manage the growing message traffic. To remove yourself, just click the "unsubscribe" option at the bottom of each message.

Note that your message was posted to all ~150 list recipients, which is OK if you were in-fact complaining about the subject, but not a suitable way to reduce excess mail traffic, if that was your sole intent.

If you have a problem with critique of AWEC, please make that clear with specifics. AWEC is a very controversial player, and you perhaps do not wish to seem to justify their history.

Sorry if any opinion of mine somehow offended you,

daveS
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8619 From: Bob Stuart Date: 2/19/2013
Subject: Fwd: [AWES] Ampyx in Saskachewan
I have received some correspondence on this story, along with a confidentiality notice.  Then I got an "out of office."  So, all I'll say is that my confidence in both government and newspapers has not improved, and it is far too early to plan to see this installation.

Bob Stuart
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8620 From: Doug Date: 2/20/2013
Subject: Re: Fwd: [AWES] Ampyx in Saskachewan
Wow yeah I still have not had Makani answer their phone or an e-mail after 4 months of trying... I am convinced they are out of business or maybe too busy getting ready to become droneized.

"Look, I can fly a kite! Look, it pulls on the string! Wheeee!
:)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8621 From: Doug Date: 2/20/2013
Subject: Re: Ampyx in Saskachewan
After how many years, how many millions of dollars, how many experts, how many teams, how many grants, how many conferences, how many renderings, someone can actually get a kite to fly by itself for an hour or so? Well that is one early step in a long long list of steps.
Remember a working SuperTurbine(R) hanging in the air at the first AWE conference? Did it run for an hour? 2 days as I recall.
Did it matter how cold it was outside? no, we were inside as the prototype, crude as it was, ran unattended outside. Whoopee-doo.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8622 From: Doug Date: 2/20/2013
Subject: Re: Laddermill Clarifications
Could type all day and it means nothing.
It was not me who called it the biggest ripoff.
One failure proves nothing, yet to ignore it shows ignorance of what has been tried which leads to repeating past mistakes.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8623 From: Doug Date: 2/20/2013
Subject: Re: Who wants Mothra to host Wayne German's Vertical Blinds?
Hey Wayne:
The design I remember you for was two wandering skyships with tethers between, at least one with a skygen, beaming microwaves to ground stations. I recall it was supposed to have been also powered by supernatural spirits of some sort?. You were pretty insistent that this was "the way to go", because other people were trying to talk and you kept interrupting them to promote this dual-craft microwave device. What is your latest progress there? Beamed anything down yet? Have you gotten any aspect or component working?

Now you talk about "spanking" people, and how drag devices are crap (2000-year-old information) Well yes it is true that real wind energy people mostly ignore drag devices due to lack of performance. And it is also true that drag devices will be endlessly promoted by those with no knowledge of wind energy. That has always been the landscape. We deal with it.

It seems that you are, on the one hand, mischarachterizing laddermill as being only drag-based, when it clearly CAN be lift-based. The main thing holding back laddermill is the same thing holding back so many other concepts - nobody builds them, they just talk about it.

You told me that you don't like to pay attention to what others are doing so you don't taint your mind. But what if someone has already done what you say is your own invention, and you don't know about it?

Can you comment on what is the difference between your proposed "venetian blinds" design and the "biggest ripoff in the history of wind energy" tested at Oak Creek windfarm in Tehachapi in the 1980's?

Oh boy see this is why I quit the group before.
I hate to do it but these discussions are 100% worthless and nonproductive and yet they suck me in til I look up and see how much of a perfectly good day is being wasted...

I could be working or skiing!
Seeya!
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8624 From: Doug Date: 2/20/2013
Subject: True or False? //Re: [AWES] Re: Mothra hosting flipwings by Rod R
If I were to spend my time replying to these posts it would take a lot of time for nothing. Have fun flipping, flapping, whatever... and don't listen to me! What the heck do I know? Flip and flap your way to stardom. Still waiting to see any results... :)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8625 From: dave santos Date: 2/20/2013
Subject: Re: Ampyx in Saskachewan
Doug,

Aympx is flying a high performance glider aerobatically on a tether high in the sky. That's why an hour flight is so impressive! Just ask our third-party expert, national glider champ and AWE theorist-savant, Dale Kramer.

Your demo only flew to the 38ft ceiling allowed you at the Chico airfield. I do agree that passive "flight automation" (full inherent flight stability) is more promising early on, but not when dependent on LTA bulk lift, as your demo was. Ampyx at least is not dependent on helium; give them that.

The Aympx feat commands the respect of experts as serious aviation and amazing kite-work. Never forget, we are in a true aviation field, and power extracted from wind higher than any tower is the grand goal.


Bob and Harry,

This looks like an ideal time to get into the Saskach process and do two things- 1) Make sure it is an open R&D process that protects local options (like hosting AWES architecture competition) and 2) Help the sluggish drawn-out process to succeed, by giving a key boost at this critical time, to leverage the ground work already done.

This is better than just watching AWE R&D fail in Canada, and saying "we told you so",

daveS
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8626 From: dave santos Date: 2/20/2013
Subject: Re: True or False? //Re: [AWES] Re: Mothra hosting flipwings by R
Doug wrote-

"If I were to spend my time replying to these posts it would take a lot of time for nothing. Have fun flipping, flapping, whatever... and don't listen to me! What the heck do I know? Flip and flap your way to stardom. Still waiting to see any results"


Doug,

It is great fun to play with flipwing wing-mills and slowly discover the hidden secrets.

You do waste time in never answering specifics convincingly (like why tacking sailboats are not a proven case of reciprocating wind power, or why AWE is not aviation). You waste all our time in failing that key task.

Always remind newbies on the list know that by "results", you never mean foundational AWE science-engineering data, but petty commercial dominance, which comes in due time. Do not p--s on the hard technical work of others, without really understanding it.

You never solved the "What good is a newborn baby?" riddle,

daveS


 A few old KiteLab "results" (c. 2011)- 

http://www.kitelabgroup.com/%c2%a0
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8627 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/20/2013
Subject: Re: Welcome to this technology space: AirborneWindEnergy
http://openlibrary.org/works/OL16800857W/Airborne_Wind_Energy 
Thanks to all who have been adding to this online book. 

Your papers, white papers in PDF, drawings, chapters, essays, etc. are 
ever invited to be added to the book Airborne Wind Energy , the free online digital book.

Send items to 
editor@UpperWindPower.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8628 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 2/20/2013
Subject: Mothra and Superturbine

DaveS and DougS,

Now your reciprocating or rotational discussion concerns technical details about SuperMothra!DaveS has the airborne support.DougS has the conversion system.

First question:an arch is difficult to direct according to the wind direction;so what do you think of the feasibility of a large rotational stick holding both the two ends of arch and the bottom of multirotors (see also a drawing about it on a precedent post)?Another possibility?A torus instead the stick?   

Good job! 

PierreB 

http://flygenkite.com

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 8629 From: dave santos Date: 2/20/2013
Subject: Re: Mothra and Superturbine
Pierre,

Doug has already agreed to allow a row of super turbines to be tested under a Mothra. We think we can rotate the power inputs at a central generator turret with outriggers.

We have mastered how to rotate Mothra arches easily by the perfected anchor-belay method (see Forum Posts). In Summary-