Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.         AWES761to811
 Page 15 of 552.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 761 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/19/2009
Subject: TurboSails revisited with sense towards AWECS

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 762 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/19/2009
Subject: John Kirby and wind aerogenerator

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 763 From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com Date: 12/19/2009
Subject: New file uploaded to AirborneWindEnergy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 764 From: Dave Lang Date: 12/20/2009
Subject: Re: mechanical step-up by toy-acrobat mechanism

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 765 From: david inisrael Date: 12/20/2009
Subject: Re: John Kirby and wind aerogenerator

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 766 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/20/2009
Subject: Re: mechanical step-up by toy-acrobat mechanism

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 767 From: david inisrael Date: 12/20/2009
Subject: Re: use instead a plunger handle spinning top mechanism

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 768 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/20/2009
Subject: Plunger Spinning Top

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 769 From: david inisrael Date: 12/20/2009
Subject: Re: spiraling push screwdriver

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 770 From: david inisrael Date: 12/20/2009
Subject: Re: "Gorlov TurboSail Kite" webpage

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 771 From: david inisrael Date: 12/20/2009
Subject: Re: (airflow corrected) "Gorlov TurboSail Kite" webpage

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 772 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/22/2009
Subject: Re: Reports? 07 Dec 2009 Kite Dynamics Symposium

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 773 From: dougselsam Date: 12/22/2009
Subject: My Faired Tethers U.S. Patent 6616402

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 774 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/22/2009
Subject: Re: My Faired Tethers U.S. Patent 6616402

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 775 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/22/2009
Subject: Re: My Faired Tethers U.S. Patent 6616402

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 776 From: brooksdesign Date: 12/22/2009
Subject: Re: My Faired Tethers U.S. Patent 6616402

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 777 From: Darin Selby Date: 12/22/2009
Subject: Re: My Faired Tethers U.S. Patent 6616402

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 778 From: Bob Stuart Date: 12/22/2009
Subject: Re: My Faired Tethers U.S. Patent 6616402

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 779 From: Darin Selby Date: 12/22/2009
Subject: Re: One more important point...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 780 From: Darin Selby Date: 12/22/2009
Subject: Re: wind turbines & blade chamber

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 781 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/23/2009
Subject: Rolt in 2006 forwards some instruction, assigns to Rolls-Royce

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 782 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/23/2009
Subject: Wnchable faired tethers or tow lines

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 783 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/23/2009
Subject: Re: Winchable faired tethers or tow lines

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 784 From: dave santos Date: 12/23/2009
Subject: Land Mine Clearing by Kite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 785 From: harry valentine Date: 12/24/2009
Subject: Re: Land Mine Clearing by Kite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 786 From: dave santos Date: 12/24/2009
Subject: Low-Tech Cheapo AWE Transmissions

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 787 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/24/2009
Subject: Re: Low-Tech Cheapo AWE Transmissions

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 788 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/24/2009
Subject: Video re: Makani Power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 789 From: spacecannon@san.rr.com Date: 12/24/2009
Subject: Re: Land Mine Clearing by Kite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 790 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/24/2009
Subject: Controlling AoA of Faired Tethers: PC, AC, PC&AC

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 791 From: spacecannon@san.rr.com Date: 12/24/2009
Subject: Re: Controlling AoA of Faired Tethers: PC, AC, PC&AC

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 792 From: harry valentine Date: 12/24/2009
Subject: Orbiting Satellites and airborne wind power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 793 From: Darin Selby Date: 12/24/2009
Subject: Re: Orbiting Satellites and airborne wind power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 794 From: dougselsam Date: 12/26/2009
Subject: Re: Orbiting Satellites and airborne wind power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 795 From: harry valentine Date: 12/26/2009
Subject: Re: Orbiting Satellites and airborne wind power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 796 From: dave santos Date: 12/27/2009
Subject: Mastering Parafoil Turbines

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 797 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/29/2009
Subject: Integrated penta-space AWECS

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 798 From: Bob Stuart Date: 12/29/2009
Subject: Re: Integrated penta-space AWECS

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 799 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/30/2009
Subject: US Patent 7,516,605 Electronic elongation-sensing rope

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 800 From: dave santos Date: 12/30/2009
Subject: Wayne German's "Venetian Blind Affair" in Low Level Jets (LLJs)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 801 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/30/2009
Subject: Re: Integrated penta-space AWECS

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 802 From: christopher carlin Date: 12/30/2009
Subject: Re: US Patent 7,516,605 Electronic elongation-sensing rope

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 803 From: christopher carlin Date: 12/30/2009
Subject: Re: Integrated penta-space AWECS

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 804 From: Bob Stuart Date: 12/30/2009
Subject: Re: Extreme Gearing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 805 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/30/2009
Subject: Re: Integrated penta-space AWECS

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 806 From: dougselsam Date: 12/31/2009
Subject: Re: US Patent 7,516,605 Electronic elongation-sensing Maboomba!

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 808 From: dave santos Date: 12/31/2009
Subject: Kite Water Pumping: Maboomba!

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 809 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/31/2009
Subject: Multi-sets of counter-rotating blades, generators aloft, lifted sys

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 810 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/31/2009
Subject: For AWECS: Higher-wind assets

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 811 From: dave santos Date: 12/31/2009
Subject: KiteNotes: Turretless 360, Stacked Parafoil Turbine, AWE Winched Alo



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 761 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/19/2009
Subject: TurboSails revisited with sense towards AWECS

David Inisrael continues his creative actions over wings within the AWECS community:

http://www.energykitesystems.net/DavidInisrael/TurboSailDarrieusOnShipSM2msp.jpg
http://www.energykitesystems.net/DavidInisrael/TurboSailGorlovSM30msp.jpg

Large files for highest quality for his two drawings:
http://www.energykitesystems.net/DavidInisrael/TurboSailDarrieusOnShipLARGE.jpg
http://www.energykitesystems.net/DavidInisrael/TurboSailGorlovLARGE.jpg


Last week I drew this Gorlov TurboSail design of the earlier sketch while on a 10 hour flight to Israel. It could mean a marked improvement over what Jacques Cousteau had on the Alcyone ship!  I find myself humming the Calypso song by John Denver on occasion now when I think about how cool it would be if this concept really did improve what he pioneered with his TurboSail invention!

http://www.cousteau.org/technology/turbosail 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbosail
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quietrevolution_wind_turbine

As you have noticed, by my email address, I no longer desire to go by the name, Darin. It doesn't fit me over here when I introduce myself to the locals. I'm also in the process of learning the Hebrew language, and immersing myself into their culture. My friend here said to me that it would be good to change my name to a Hebrew one, and then suggested the name, David, (pronounced Da-veed). I had always secretly liked that name, so it was easy to say yes.

Though, it has been tough to remember that I've changed it, when introducing myself to people. It shows to me how much of a "programmed rat" I've become in my communication skills. So, it is high-time for me to bust out of the U.S. box that I've place myself in!

My hopes in presenting these many concepts with you and others, is that through this AWE community effort, tangible working prototypes could possibly be made. In many ways, through your enthusiastic attention to kite power, it has inspired me to continue with my drawings, because now I have really constructive chat room of like-minded individuals to share them in!       
                       ~David   Inisrael, December 2 , 2009.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 762 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/19/2009
Subject: John Kirby and wind aerogenerator

John instructs:

EP0391601  John Kirby   .... application.

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 763 From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com Date: 12/19/2009
Subject: New file uploaded to AirborneWindEnergy
Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the AirborneWindEnergy
group.

File : /PATENTS/USKiteBalloonPATENTS/kiteballoon1926.pdf
Uploaded by : joe_f_90032 <joefaust333@gmail.com Description : 1686646 by R. H. Upson, filed July 3, 1926 Kite Balloon

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AirborneWindEnergy/files/PATENTS/USKiteBalloonPATENTS/kiteballoon1926.pdf

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/forms/general.htmlfiles

Regards,

joe_f_90032 <joefaust333@gmail.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 764 From: Dave Lang Date: 12/20/2009
Subject: Re: mechanical step-up by toy-acrobat mechanism
DaveC,

It may be that I didn't even understand properly what DaveS was envisioning :-)

It might helpful on this list for folks who are extolling the virtues of a "novel scheme" to actually post a schematic for clarification and efficiency (thus sparing readers from wading through a lot of semantics to dig out what the new envisionment is).

DaveL


At 7:28 PM -0800 12/19/09, Dave Culp wrote:
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 765 From: david inisrael Date: 12/20/2009
Subject: Re: John Kirby and wind aerogenerator
Attachments :
    Joe, the wind aerogenerator is obviously a good application to have the Gorlov TurboSail within its hollow wing.  The advantages are that the Gorlov H-Darrieus blades have much less drag than the "paddle wheel" design being shown in this patent.  Being a helical Gorlov style, the Darrieus rotor blades are self-starting, without any pitching, or trimming, of these twisting blades.  This translates into a substantial weight reduction, without reducing the electrical power output. 

    The "Coanda slits" would now be horizontally across the topside of the wing.  Much more airflow can be entrained through the turbine this way.  Then have a narrow "pick-up" at the aft end of the wing will also entrain more airflow to enter through the Coanda slits.
    Look at the attachments to see just how the Coanda effect operates.  Imagine a bottle that is slowly brought into contact with running faucet water.  Instead of continuing straight downward, the water flow will now follow the curve of the bottle.  This is how a VTOL aircraft works. 

    The other attachment diagram is a cross-section of a long "Coanda slit" that would run the entire length of the top side of the hollow kite wing.  The airflow takes longer to travel across the top of the wing, and this creates a lifting effect.  When combined with several successive Coanda slits, airflow would immediately get pulled inward and across the Gorlov turbine assembly. 

    Some of the airflow on the underside of the wing will get scooped up to then exit again.  This will create a back suction within the hollow wing that helps draw in more airflow through the Coanda slits.  Come to think of it, this could also be Coanda-style, as opposed to the tail "scoop" that's depicted in my drawing.

    So, with this new patent information that Joe has added, this deserves a new drawing, that will depict a Gorlov Coanda/Darrieus aerogenerator.  ~David

    To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
    From: joefaust333@gmail.com
    Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 05:47:57 +0000
    Subject: [AWECS] John Kirby and wind aerogenerator

     

    John instructs:
    EP0391601  John Kirby   .... application.
     


    Windows Live Hotmail: Your friends can get your Facebook updates, right from Hotmail®.
    		  @@attachment@@
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 766 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/20/2009
    Subject: Re: mechanical step-up by toy-acrobat mechanism
    --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, Dave Lang <SeattleDL@... In support of this thread and the forwardings of DaveS, DaveC, DavidI, DaveL and others, a lateral editable folder has been opened:
    http://www.energykitesystems.net/Mechanics/AcrobatToy/index.html

    Encourage posting in this thread and at the form there as might be fun.
    ===================================================
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 767 From: david inisrael Date: 12/20/2009
    Subject: Re: use instead a plunger handle spinning top mechanism
    Attachments :

      I, as well, do not understand what you are trying to accomplish with the toy-acrobat mechanism.  Wouldn't there be quite a bit of kinetic energy loss by the spinning disc slowing down, to then go the other direction?  Not to mention the wear and tear on the line itself. 

      Remember the plunger handle spinning top of our childhood?  Use this principle instead, so that the spinning flywheel generator disc is always rotating the same direction.  The kite pulls the spiral guide upward, and then a spring pulls it back to reset it, to be again pulled out by the kite.  Thereby it consistently spins the generator disc in the same direction. (see attachment)  ~David
      To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
      CC: dave@kiteship.com
      From: SeattleDL@comcast.net
      Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 00:29:17 -0800
      Subject: Re: [AWECS] mechanical step-up by toy-acrobat mechanism

       

      DaveC,

      It may be that I didn't even understand properly what DaveS was envisioning :-)

      It might helpful on this list for folks who are extolling the virtues of a "novel scheme" to actually post a schematic for clarification and efficiency (thus sparing readers from wading through a lot of semantics to dig out what the new envisionment is).

      DaveL


      At 7:28 PM -0800 12/19/09, Dave Culp wrote:

      Windows Live Hotmail: Your friends can get your Facebook updates, right from Hotmail®.
      		  @@attachment@@
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 768 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/20/2009
      Subject: Plunger Spinning Top
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 769 From: david inisrael Date: 12/20/2009
      Subject: Re: spiraling push screwdriver


      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Spiral-screwdriver.JPG


      shows the well-known push-spiraling screwdriver.  They are for sale at this site:


      http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=54192&cat=1,43411,43417


      A very durable item, which appears could be fitted with some kind of a spring return. 


      A ratchet flywheel could be made from a freewheeling 20" bicycle wheel, that is filled with cement and balanced.  This whole assembly is on the turntable generator base, where the flywheel/generator is spinning on a top axis.  A flexible driveshaft (seen with dremel tools) could be angled off of the flywheel, and structurally supported to the angle of the kite tether. 

      Since the kite is doing its figure eight, as I have recently viewed a video here, it is also rising and falling.  It seems that both motions could then be used to extract usable energy.

      The spiraling shank of the screwdriver would need to be much longer to be an efficient stroke.  ~David
      To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
      From: joefaust333@gmail.com
      Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 15:56:54 +0000
      Subject: [AWECS] Plunger Spinning Top

       
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 770 From: david inisrael Date: 12/20/2009
      Subject: Re: "Gorlov TurboSail Kite" webpage


      http://darinselby.1hwy.com/GorlovTurboSail.html




      Windows Live: Make it easier for your friends to see what you’re up to on Facebook.
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 771 From: david inisrael Date: 12/20/2009
      Subject: Re: (airflow corrected) "Gorlov TurboSail Kite" webpage


      If you have already seen this page, I have now modified the airflow direction on a couple of pictures, so that the idea is more coherent.  

      http://darinselby. 1hwy.com/ GorlovTurboSail. html





      Windows Live: Make it easier for your friends to see what you’re up to on Facebook.

      Keep your friends updated— even when you’re not signed in.
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 772 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/22/2009
      Subject: Re: Reports? 07 Dec 2009 Kite Dynamics Symposium
      Jeroen Breukels
      has posted
      http://vimeo.com/8310106

      Kite Dynamics Symposium 2009 Presentation 2, Dr. Roland Schmehl
      Kite Dynamics Symposium 2009 Presentation 2, Dr. Roland Schmehl.

      Roland Schmehl is Associate Professor at ASSET since 1 October 2009. With a background in
      Computational Fluid Dynamics in the fields of low emission combustion, liquid propellant
      space propulsion and airbag deployment, he is now exploring the potential of kite power
      generation and propulsion. His presentation outlines the current state of research on kites and
      planned developments for 2010 and 2011.
      =================================================

      If there are more clips from the symposium, please post them in group AWECS.

      ..................
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 773 From: dougselsam Date: 12/22/2009
      Subject: My Faired Tethers U.S. Patent 6616402
      Hi Joe:
      This is "been there, done that" territory for me.
      Please see my faired tethers (serving as Darrieus blades) in U.S. Pat 6616402 Figs. 97-105

      I listen to people talk about circular kite paths, kites filled with helium, faired tethers, etc.
      OK how about this?
      Helium-filled kites, traveling in a circular path, guided through their travel by:
      1) a central hub
      2) faired tethers in a helical configuration, i.e. Gorlov-style application of the Darrieus concept, also serving as tethers for the buoyant kites which also could be called buoyant propeller-blades.

      While my patent calls them vertical-axis-type blades, Darrieus blades, etc., they are also "faired tethers" as they serve to tether the buoyant kites traveling in a circular pattern above.
      The result at ground level is rotation, with no need for spools, energy storage, etc.

      But what has NOT been discussed in this group is that the tethers themselves, once "faired", suddenly become blades and can bring power, not use power.

      So yes, the faired tether is already known for energy-producing buoyant rotors, and they can be straight, helical, even helical in both directions and also straight, forming an open lattice cylindrical structure that both transmits torque AND acts as a Darrieus rotor.
      It is not only the answer for tethered turbines and getting the power to the ground, but it is an improved Darrieus rotor in general that needs no central driveshaft and can be made as long as you want and suspended between mountain tops. This terrain-enabled version is patent pending with my latest application.


      I wish people would pay more attention to what I have already worked out.
      I keep hearing people describing tantalizing little aspects of my machines then asking how they can ever make these tantalizing tidbits work, by application of complicated Rube Goldberg contraptions.
      All I can say is please, read the patents. So much is already worked out.
      They are there to teach what I have figured out so far, and could serve to help protect the concept during development so that investors can get excited and participate.

      Thanks for listening.
      Doug Selsam
      Selsam Innovations
      2600 Porter Ave. Unit B
      Fullerton, CA 92833
      714-992-5594
      http://www.selsam.com
      Doug@Selsam.com
      http://www.USWINDLABS.com
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 774 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/22/2009
      Subject: Re: My Faired Tethers U.S. Patent 6616402
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 775 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/22/2009
      Subject: Re: My Faired Tethers U.S. Patent 6616402

      The faired tether called the Sputnik has been discussed in this group; it becomes a powerful wind-energy capturing device by DS.


      And in several of us, the butterfly faired tether can act as a pulsating varidrogue; open and close the fairing for getting line pulsations to do groundstation work. 
      The butterfly fairing on the kinpost of hang gliders had been explored as a dive-control mechanism for the 1970s dive divergent Rogallos.

      You are right on about the faired tether becoming a blade; such for the short faired tether towline of the hang glider kite has been well discussed in hang glider literature as not only a streamlining mechanism, but upon twist becomes a flying blade for control.

      Really enjoy your three-score and more embodiments in your patent; thanks for going to such extent!   Here is another clip from your patent showing working faired tethers:

       
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 776 From: brooksdesign Date: 12/22/2009
      Subject: Re: My Faired Tethers U.S. Patent 6616402
      Any chance there are 3D cad files of any of your patents? I try to include everyone's devices as input options for my universal system. A picture is worth a thousand word but 3D cad needs no words at all.
      -brooks
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 777 From: Darin Selby Date: 12/22/2009
      Subject: Re: My Faired Tethers U.S. Patent 6616402
      Referring to Figs. 97-105 in U.S. Pat 6616402, I do not see where they are serving as "Darrieus blades"?  They are many propellers, which share a common flexing, rotating axis, and have a flexing structural support surrounding them. 

      There is no mention or diagram, that I can see, of the aerodynamic "Darrieus blade" that is used in the Gorlov Turbine.  Though it appears to look the same, it is far from being the same. 

      Propellers are not Helical Darrieus rotors.  There is much more drag and noise associated with spinning propellers.  And, they cannot go faster than the speed of the wind, which Darrieus rotors can. 

      Propellers get pushed around,  Darrieus rotors get pulled around.  This allows them to spin at a faster rate than the wind is blowing.  Also, in higher wind speeds, propellers can become rather noisy.

      Also, try to take a curved, flexible pole and spin it between your hands?  There is resistance, which translates to less usable energy output.  Much more so than if this spinning flexible axis of propellers were to be replaced by pairs of contra-spinning propellers.  Then the long, flexible axis no longer needs to rotate.  Sikorsky helicopters has just won an award for the most efficient helicopter ever made.  It has contra-rotating blades. 

      Each of the pairs of contra-spinning propellers could be on a fixed axis, spinning around it. And each pair could have their own small generator.  Another advantage is "double-time".  The stator spins in one direction, and the armature spins the other.  And since contra-spinning cancels torque, the heavy axis can disappear, and be replaced by a lightweight, conductive tether.  It's a weight trade-off.  Same weight being held aloft, now being used much differently.

      Still, after discovering the magic of the self-starting, Gorlov Helical Darrieus turbine concept, why keep messing with chopping propellers at all?  They are much noisier in high winds, and cannot spin as fast. 

      Visualize many pairs of contra-spinning, helical Darrieus rotors that are stacked vertically upon a lightweight, conductive tether, which is being held aloft by an H2-filled kytoon.  Built-in conductive slipring bearings are between each pair. 

      The electricity that's made is sent down through the conductive slipring bearing assemblies to an electrolyzer that creates and stores H2. 

      This supports the kytoon's need for a lifting gas, as well as being a very efficient, non-toxic way to store energy.  Only 1.3vdc is needed to split water, whereas 13.6vdc must be generated before a 12volt battery can start charging.

      I am very much impressed by the drawings created for this US6616402 patent.  They are top-notch.  Still, all of this perimeter structuring, around a heavy rotating axis (that has a built-in resistance to turning), and inefficient spinning propellers, are really no longer required.



      To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
      From: doug@selsam.com
      Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 21:12:47 +0000
      Subject: [AWECS] My Faired Tethers U.S. Patent 6616402

       
      Hi Joe:
      This is "been there, done that" territory for me.
      Please see my faired tethers (serving as Darrieus blades) in U.S. Pat 6616402 Figs. 97-105

      I listen to people talk about circular kite paths, kites filled with helium, faired tethers, etc.
      OK how about this?
      Helium-filled kites, traveling in a circular path, guided through their travel by:
      1) a central hub
      2) faired tethers in a helical configuration, i.e. Gorlov-style application of the Darrieus concept, also serving as tethers for the buoyant kites which also could be called buoyant propeller-blades.

      While my patent calls them vertical-axis- type blades, Darrieus blades, etc., they are also "faired tethers" as they serve to tether the buoyant kites traveling in a circular pattern above.
      The result at ground level is rotation, with no need for spools, energy storage, etc.

      But what has NOT been discussed in this group is that the tethers themselves, once "faired", suddenly become blades and can bring power, not use power.

      So yes, the faired tether is already known for energy-producing buoyant rotors, and they can be straight, helical, even helical in both directions and also straight, forming an open lattice cylindrical structure that both transmits torque AND acts as a Darrieus rotor.
      It is not only the answer for tethered turbines and getting the power to the ground, but it is an improved Darrieus rotor in general that needs no central driveshaft and can be made as long as you want and suspended between mountain tops. This terrain-enabled version is patent pending with my latest application.

      I wish people would pay more attention to what I have already worked out.
      I keep hearing people describing tantalizing little aspects of my machines then asking how they can ever make these tantalizing tidbits work, by application of complicated Rube Goldberg contraptions.
      All I can say is please, read the patents. So much is already worked out.
      They are there to teach what I have figured out so far, and could serve to help protect the concept during development so that investors can get excited and participate.

      Thanks for listening.
      Doug Selsam
      Selsam Innovations
      2600 Porter Ave. Unit B
      Fullerton, CA 92833
      714-992-5594
      http://www.selsam. com
      Doug@Selsam. com
      http://www.USWINDLA BS.com



      Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. Get it now.
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 778 From: Bob Stuart Date: 12/22/2009
      Subject: Re: My Faired Tethers U.S. Patent 6616402
      I'm a bit confused by the use of the term "propellers" as used
      below. Wind turbines resemble propellers except in blade camber, but
      they do not produce propulsion. The designs for both that I'm
      familiar with are certainly capable of tip speeds greater than wind
      speed, depending on blade pitch.

      Bob Stuart
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 779 From: Darin Selby Date: 12/22/2009
      Subject: Re: One more important point...
      Oh yes, I forgot to add, that this idea I have just shared is now placed into the public domain.  Feel free to use it, but not to patent, hoard and manipulate it.

      From: darin_selby@hotmail.com
      To: airbornewindenergy@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [AWECS] My Faired Tethers U.S. Patent 6616402
      Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:38:34 +0000

      Referring to Figs. 97-105 in U.S. Pat 6616402, I do not see where they are serving as "Darrieus blades"?  They are many propellers, which share a common flexing, rotating axis, and have a flexing structural support surrounding them. 

      There is no mention or diagram, that I can see, of the aerodynamic "Darrieus blade" that is used in the Gorlov Turbine.  Though it appears to look the same, it is far from being the same. 

      Propellers are not Helical Darrieus rotors.  There is much more drag and noise associated with spinning propellers.  And, they cannot go faster than the speed of the wind, which Darrieus rotors can. 

      Propellers get pushed around,  Darrieus rotors get pulled around.  This allows them to spin at a faster rate than the wind is blowing.  Also, in higher wind speeds, propellers can become rather noisy.

      Also, try to take a curved, flexible pole and spin it between your hands?  There is resistance, which translates to less usable energy output.  Much more so than if this spinning flexible axis of propellers were to be replaced by pairs of contra-spinning propellers.  Then the long, flexible axis no longer needs to rotate.  Sikorsky helicopters has just won an award for the most efficient helicopter ever made.  It has contra-rotating blades. 

      Each of the pairs of contra-spinning propellers could be on a fixed axis, spinning around it. And each pair could have their own small generator.  Another advantage is "double-time".  The stator spins in one direction, and the armature spins the other.  And since contra-spinning cancels torque, the heavy axis can disappear, and be replaced by a lightweight, conductive tether.  It's a weight trade-off.  Same weight being held aloft, now being used much differently.

      Still, after discovering the magic of the self-starting, Gorlov Helical Darrieus turbine concept, why keep messing with chopping propellers at all?  They are much noisier in high winds, and cannot spin as fast. 

      Visualize many pairs of contra-spinning, helical Darrieus rotors that are stacked vertically upon a lightweight, conductive tether, which is being held aloft by an H2-filled kytoon.  Built-in conductive slipring bearings are between each pair. 

      The electricity that's made is sent down through the conductive slipring bearing assemblies to an electrolyzer that creates and stores H2. 

      This supports the kytoon's need for a lifting gas, as well as being a very efficient, non-toxic way to store energy.  Only 1.3vdc is needed to split water, whereas 13.6vdc must be generated before a 12volt battery can start charging.

      I am very much impressed by the drawings created for this US6616402 patent.  They are top-notch.  Still, all of this perimeter structuring, around a heavy rotating axis (that has a built-in resistance to turning), and inefficient spinning propellers, are really no longer required.



      To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
      From: doug@selsam.com
      Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 21:12:47 +0000
      Subject: [AWECS] My Faired Tethers U.S. Patent 6616402

       
      Hi Joe:
      This is "been there, done that" territory for me.
      Please see my faired tethers (serving as Darrieus blades) in U.S. Pat 6616402 Figs. 97-105

      I listen to people talk about circular kite paths, kites filled with helium, faired tethers, etc.
      OK how about this?
      Helium-filled kites, traveling in a circular path, guided through their travel by:
      1) a central hub
      2) faired tethers in a helical configuration, i.e. Gorlov-style application of the Darrieus concept, also serving as tethers for the buoyant kites which also could be called buoyant propeller-blades.

      While my patent calls them vertical-axis- type blades, Darrieus blades, etc., they are also "faired tethers" as they serve to tether the buoyant kites traveling in a circular pattern above.
      The result at ground level is rotation, with no need for spools, energy storage, etc.

      But what has NOT been discussed in this group is that the tethers themselves, once "faired", suddenly become blades and can bring power, not use power.

      So yes, the faired tether is already known for energy-producing buoyant rotors, and they can be straight, helical, even helical in both directions and also straight, forming an open lattice cylindrical structure that both transmits torque AND acts as a Darrieus rotor.
      It is not only the answer for tethered turbines and getting the power to the ground, but it is an improved Darrieus rotor in general that needs no central driveshaft and can be made as long as you want and suspended between mountain tops. This terrain-enabled version is patent pending with my latest application.

      I wish people would pay more attention to what I have already worked out.
      I keep hearing people describing tantalizing little aspects of my machines then asking how they can ever make these tantalizing tidbits work, by application of complicated Rube Goldberg contraptions.
      All I can say is please, read the patents. So much is already worked out.
      They are there to teach what I have figured out so far, and could serve to help protect the concept during development so that investors can get excited and participate.

      Thanks for listening.
      Doug Selsam
      Selsam Innovations
      2600 Porter Ave. Unit B
      Fullerton, CA 92833
      714-992-5594
      http://www.selsam. com
      Doug@Selsam. com
      http://www.USWINDLA BS.com



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      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 780 From: Darin Selby Date: 12/22/2009
      Subject: Re: wind turbines & blade chamber
      Still, they are proven to be noisier than the helical Darrieus rotor counterpart in high winds.  Plus most of them still have straight blades.  This alone creates downstream chaos vortex turbulence.  As wind turbines, complete with their "blade chamber" get larger in diameter, they become increasingly more dangerous to raptors and bats, with their horizontal axis of rotation. 

      The Gorlov helical Darrieus rotates upon a vertical axis, making it much easier for raptors to avoid.  I would presume that even the intense downstream low pressure created in larger wind turbine designs, would be spread out and be more dissipated, when using the vertical trajectory of spin associated with the helical Darrieus. 

      Really, the concept of windfarm-size turbines must eventually give-way to smaller, more decentralized versions, that empower households and neighborhoods to become self-sufficient.  Thereby eliminating the need for high-tension power lines marring the landscape, along with their associated 17% line loss.

      And when they do give-way, I believe that people will want to opt for the quietest design in high winds, since it is now happening nearby them.


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      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 781 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/23/2009
      Subject: Rolt in 2006 forwards some instruction, assigns to Rolls-Royce

      http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=PYGpAAAAEBAJ 
      Power generating apparatus] by Andrew Martin Rolt,
      assignee: Rolls-Royce, plc;
      filed July 25, 2006.
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 782 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/23/2009
      Subject: Wnchable faired tethers or tow lines
      A question was asked by a member of the AWECS community. Here is a partial answering today shared with you.  Each AWECS community member receiving this note is invited to feed notes to forward the tether sector of AWECS.
       
      Good Morning,
                   Good question about winchable faired towlines!     A kite itself is a power-generating device capturing the stream's kinetic energy relative to a frame for conversion to mechanical energy and other energies in the kite's parts (lifting body, tether, mooring).
       
      Yes, there are several old patents facing the challenge of winchable faired tethers or towlines. The areas of strongest use have been in fishing, science-data capture, communications-cable placement, and military; the options found have been in the obvious toolkit for engineers in other applicaiton spaces.  The solutions instructed range in at least these categories:
       
      1. Manufacturing the line with hairiness so that the hairs pop back for turbulation during operation in a fluid.  In a similar genre are woven-in flat strips of fabric or sheet plastic.   The measures on drag reduction are iffy; in water, stopping of strumming was high on the list of users in the war and fishing. In air, tufts in line are iffy.
       
      2. Having near-winch separation devices that separates the add-on-take-off fairing from the line just before reeling in ...and mounting the line just at reeling out.
       
      3. Bonded fairing that can take the rough crunching of the reeling actions.
       
      It is understood that one need not fair a full kite tether, especially when it might be advantageous in reel-in and reel-out AWECS systems where an operator might choose only to fair upper cross-winding tether and leave a segment near ground untethered for working the yo-yo.  
       
      Art projected outside of patents that form part of ever-present prior art:
      Beyond patents (which patents by me have not  been comprehensively surveyed yet) has been an understanding of having the fibers of the line woven in such manner that the body of the line ends up shaped or faired; this avoids adding to or subtracting from the intended core line. The idea keeps getting revisted [[The father of Bob Trampenau of Seedwings, the son serving in four-decade-old hang glder manufacturing, inventor, designer ...hang gliders and sailplane, recalls related projected art; Bob revisits woven shaped lines in his recent note: 
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 783 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/23/2009
      Subject: Re: Winchable faired tethers or tow lines
      Correction:
      "a segment near ground untethered for working the yo-yo"
      should have been:
      "a segment near ground unfaired for working the yo-yo"
      ===========================================================
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 784 From: dave santos Date: 12/23/2009
      Subject: Land Mine Clearing by Kite
      JoeF posted a KiteNote requesting input on demining by kite means. I studied robotic demining during the eighties & big challenges were safety, high capital cost, & terrain. Demining kites will only serve in some situations, but have great potential advantages as part of an all-around mine removal program. Unlike 24/7 base-load power supply, fickle wind is practical for opportunistic sessions of tough jobs like demining. A previous post covered key related details of pick & place kite lifting & fire-fighting.
       
      Some Kite Demining Notes:
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 785 From: harry valentine Date: 12/24/2009
      Subject: Re: Land Mine Clearing by Kite
      Excellent idea,
       
      Harry
       
      To: airbornewindenergy@yahoogroups.com
      From: santos137@yahoo.com
      Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 21:18:54 -0800
      Subject: [AWECS] Land Mine Clearing by Kite

       
      JoeF posted a KiteNote requesting input on demining by kite means. I studied robotic demining during the eighties & big challenges were safety, high capital cost, & terrain. Demining kites will only serve in some situations, but have great potential advantages as part of an all-around mine removal program. Unlike 24/7 base-load power supply, fickle wind is practical for opportunistic sessions of tough jobs like demining. A previous post covered key related details of pick & place kite lifting & fire-fighting.
       
      Some Kite Demining Notes:



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      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 786 From: dave santos Date: 12/24/2009
      Subject: Low-Tech Cheapo AWE Transmissions
      Recent threads address AWE groundgens driven by high speed motion to maximize expensive magnets & copper. But geoflow energy is typically low speed. Its worth a lot of ancillary step-up mechanism to load a smaller (cheaper) generator fully, running as close to thermal breakdown as possible without damage.
       
      Gears are expensive & vulnerable. Conventional turbines are slowly adopting expensive gearless generators, starting with remote hard-to-service locations like offshore. What is the cheapest, simplest, most robust way to drive a crosswind AWE generator at high speed?  Doug's concern with "Rube Goldberg" designs seems to discount the many devices which are necessarily elaborate for safety, reliability, & efficiency. Just peer under the hood of a modern car & see how evolution has driven complexity. The many low-tech mechanisms explored on this list are far simpler..
       
      The plunging top AWE mechanism Davisrael recently pointed out is one of many that does the job with modest friction & complexity, including a freewheel clutch. It integrates flywheel stability & may be a good option. The torsion catapult & toy acrobat suggest an irreducibly simple & cheap mechanism where a line deflected by elasticity or ballasting is tugged by the kite to straighten it.. A simple lever torqued by this geometry provides a wide range of mechanical advantage, including high-speed motion for electrical generation.
       
      Two soil anchors, two pulleys, a pivot-footed lever with elastic return, & input/output lines are a potent solution with minimal means. DaveL asked for a schematic, so the miserable ASCII depiction below is only part my fault & may look like hash in your mailer-
       
                       pilot kite  <O
                                      //  \
                                            \___  sweeping
                                            {___} power
          gen line          elastic      /     kite
          <=
      flywheel/         ||             /
      spag        lever ||          /
                           o||\  pivot & pulleys          
      ___________/_ o_\o/_________
        surface      U       U
                        anchors
       
       
      So now we have a bunch of alternative designs to do the AWE step-up job. Comparative testing & market forces will sort out winners.
       
      coopip
       
       
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 787 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/24/2009
      Subject: Re: Low-Tech Cheapo AWE Transmissions
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 788 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/24/2009
      Subject: Video re: Makani Power
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 789 From: spacecannon@san.rr.com Date: 12/24/2009
      Subject: Re: Land Mine Clearing by Kite
      OK you guys this is a good idea. Lynn, Spacecannon
      ---- harry valentine <harrycv@hotmail.com
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 790 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/24/2009
      Subject: Controlling AoA of Faired Tethers: PC, AC, PC&AC

       PC ::  Passive control

      AC :: Active control

      PC&AC  :: Passive and active control

      It is clear that raw faired tethers in towlines have deep prior art with regard to kiting bodies that convert power from streaming fluid into powers in the mechanical system set in fluidic streams under tether.  This is a relatively easy part of the discussion.  But that is not at all the fullness of the discussion.

      However, the Makani Power, Inc. claimant group has their focus on three specific control realms to maintain low drag aspects for faired tethers.

         1. passive control of angle of attack of faired tether 
         2. then active control of angle of attack of faired tether, and
         3. finally on a combination of passive and active control of angle of attack of faired tether. 
              The passive control of a faired tether angle of attack for purpose of staying the faired tether in low drag position has what prior art?  Are the solutions taught in the application novel and non-obvious?
       

      The active control of a faired tether angle of attack for purpose of staying the faired tether in low drag position has what prior art? Are the solutions taught in the application novel and non-obvious?
              A faired tether holding at once both active and passive control of angle of attack for purpose of staying the faired tether in low drag position has what prior art? Are the solutions taught in the application novel and non-obvious? 

      The posts so far in this group have faced the general "faired tether" prior art somewhat. However, facing the control of the angle of attack via PC, AC, or PC&AC  has not yet to be given attention, it seems to me.      So, this is more pointed focus may be needed to appreciate the patent application and its potential for valid novelty and non-obviousness.   

       


       
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 791 From: spacecannon@san.rr.com Date: 12/24/2009
      Subject: Re: Controlling AoA of Faired Tethers: PC, AC, PC&AC
      re; the faired tether discussion, I understand "you guys" feelings on the subject, and hence you should submit prior art to the patent examiner, however if they have a "new" way of doing it, mfg or application or ... then I would say they are entitled to their "new" way, however as a patent applyor and would again say they are not entitled to the whole concept.
      Lynn aka Spacecannon
      ---- Joe Faust <joefaust333@gmail.com
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 792 From: harry valentine Date: 12/24/2009
      Subject: Orbiting Satellites and airborne wind power
      TO: Airborne Wind Power researchers
       
      You may be aware of research involving the use of an orbiting satellite to provide an anchor for a very long, lightweight, ultra-high-strength cable attached to a point on the ground. The theory is to use that system as a guide for an elevator that can transfer payloads to and from the earth surface to the orbiting satellite that may serve as a terminus for spacecraft  that travel to from a variety of extra-terrestial locations.
       
      An orbiting satellite may serve as an anchor point for ultra-high altitude airborne wind energy conversion technology. There are no commercial aircraft flying above those altitudes (36,000-feet). The orbiting satellite may be able to support cables that transmit electrical energy to groundlevel.
       
       
      The concept is futuristic and may actually workable.
       
       
      Regards,
       
      Harry



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      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 793 From: Darin Selby Date: 12/24/2009
      Subject: Re: Orbiting Satellites and airborne wind power
      It sure worked in the latest Star Trek movie.

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      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 794 From: dougselsam Date: 12/26/2009
      Subject: Re: Orbiting Satellites and airborne wind power
      Hi Harry: I did mention this possibility on this list a while back.
      I said "What's next, incorporating the space elevator into the system? Let's get Michael Laine and the Space Elevator people in on the discussion." I was pointing out how the discussion seems to always explode into a million complicated possibilities, mostly out-of-reach, while the solutions that could actually be done are not because it is easier to talk about pie-in-sky concepts with a built-in excuse that they are too hard to actually do, than to face the challenge of what can actually be implemented today.
      Doug S.
      Maboomba.
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 795 From: harry valentine Date: 12/26/2009
      Subject: Re: Orbiting Satellites and airborne wind power
      Using space elevators as anchor points for energy generation may indeed be decades away. Except that governments (USA, Japan etc) are putting money into research and developing tethered orbiting satellites.
       
      Back on earth, the tower-mounted wind power industry is introducting higher towers with hubs at 100-meters or 328-feet above ground level, compared to the earlier height of 80-metres or 262-feet. They're claiming 12% to 25% gains in power output. While they're testing turbines of 7MW, they're also aiming at output levels of 10MW and eventually 20MW per turbine. The tower-based wind power industry has received much government assistance to develop their technology. 
       
      Its good to see that more people are recognising the merit of placing wind energy conversion technology over high windswept valleys and between mountains. That approach holds great promise and can incorporate a lot of already proven and existing technology. The fact that such technology can borrow so much from other areas may leave it to operate free from government assistance. There are several high mountains that receive steady winds.
       
      The main advantage of tethered airborne wind power is gaining access to steadier high-velocity winds at the higher elevations with the potential to generate high power from small turbines. There's a mixed bag of privately funded projects and state funded projects . . . with a good chance for the privately funded people to develop something teally worthwhile.
       
       
      Harry
       
      To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
      From: doug@selsam.com
      Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 21:03:43 +0000
      Subject: [AWECS] Re: Orbiting Satellites and airborne wind power

       
      Hi Harry: I did mention this possibility on this list a while back.
      I said "What's next, incorporating the space elevator into the system? Let's get Michael Laine and the Space Elevator people in on the discussion." I was pointing out how the discussion seems to always explode into a million complicated possibilities, mostly out-of-reach, while the solutions that could actually be done are not because it is easier to talk about pie-in-sky concepts with a built-in excuse that they are too hard to actually do, than to face the challenge of what can actually be implemented today.
      Doug S.
      Maboomba.
      :
      .


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      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 796 From: dave santos Date: 12/27/2009
      Subject: Mastering Parafoil Turbines
      Attachments :
        Many AWE concepts involve looping a kite in the power zone low in the kite-window. In a clockwise kite-loop maximum power occurs around 6-7 o'clock & minimum power at 12-1 o'clock. Power is extractable by various means; tri- bi- or mono-tethers to pulleys & levers, or even a small parasitic flygen turbines on a solid wing. The looping power signal is a coarse sine wave with chaotic peaks & valleys in gustiness (see attached WindLift datalog JPG). While some anchor-point travel downwind or crosswind is required to extract energy, excess travel saps kite power, hence the need for a high mechanical step-up.
         
        Parafoils are the highest performing & most mature soft kite technology. The Gigafly parafoil is already far larger than any conventional aircraft wing. Ram-air inflation is lighter, cheaper, & more reliable than the sealed bladders used for water kites. An oft overlooked advantage is that ram-air automatically super-pressurizes as speed increases & also self adjusts to pressure differences with altitude. A parafoil normally loops by shifting CP outboard: Using brake-line to loop in power extractions is counter-productive, as ideal helical pitch is reversed. Attaching a small pilot kite to the looping kite's inboard wing-tip retards it just enough for good looping, allows proper helical pitch, & tilts up the kite swept disc clear of the surface. 
         
        Active control of a looping kite is a daunting real-time challenge. The absence of a pilot kite in a looping system means the bottom of the dive is progressively dire & a crash often unavoidable. Wing & actuation force required to overcome inertia & pull out of a death-dive is considerable. Danger happens faster with increased mass aloft & must be sensed & preemptively counter-acted over a brief slice of the loop cycle. Instead of the harmless incident good kites experience, a heavy kiteplane, especially a hard wing, will undergo a Class A Mishap: total loss or even a fatality. Use of a pilot kite progressively limits looping dive & helps tension the system. Energy that would have been expended in a crash is transmitted efficiently down the tether.
          
        Its easy to overlook the advanced nature of the Morse Sled pilot-kite. Its ram-air tubes have a small whisker rod along the top & thus are true original Tensarity, which scales beyond airbeams. Such sleds are the lightest of conventional kites & duplicate the essential function of station-keeping UAVs at a tiny fraction of the cost.. They are powered by free renewable energy & do endurance "as long as the wind blows".
         
        In most lulls the looping power kite will stop looping & land gently while the sled remains in the air. When the pilot does come down it is so light that tiny helium balloon at the tail end of the system can speed relaunch as wind returns. Don't want helium? The wonderful sled self-relaunches soon enough & lifts the looper, which self-starts. This is the only currently workable looping kite AWE solution & it has a big window of market opportunity.
         
        coopip

        		   @@attachment@@
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 797 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/29/2009
        Subject: Integrated penta-space AWECS

        Integrated penta-space AWECS for COOIP:

        Air kite(s) (or combines of LTA kytoons)  tracting waterborne buoyant shaped barge wherein are set three types of active turbines:

             1. Hard-fixed water turbines,
             2. Astern trailing farm of paravane-spread lines beaded with water turbines,
             3. Lines beaded with water turbines with down terminus of lines strongly working downing paravanes.

        Options of having turbines of various sorts in the tracting air kite system and active generating elements at the tether(s) barge interface remain applicable. Electricity generated is applied in several ways:

             1. Operate various total-system instruments and machines on the barge,
             2. Drive split of water to generate hydrogen,
             3. Communications,
             4. Compress made hydrogen,
             5. Operated periodic heating elements to clean life off submersed parts.  

          The barge will let out to sea for pickup of the gained hydrogen for supplying the world's ships and cities with hydrogen for burning or use in other systems.

        Video cams and sensors will help manage each  turbine beaded on lines , each hard-fixed water turbine,  and the air-kite system parts.

        Smart central controls will be aware of all working parts.  The barge will be tracted back and forth and around windy regions of the sea space.  The barge could supply hydrogen to keep the aerostat kytoons charged.  The barge could cover many square kilometers or be small; the tugging kites may be few or in the thousands.  If ever  rarely needed, some of the hard-fixed water turbine could double as prime movers to move the barge.  Refinements and high levels of automation are possible.

        Keep sparks of the electrical systems away from the hydrogen. 

        Lifter blimps and ships could carry compressed hydrogen to all points earth.  

        Hydrogen could be used directly or used to make electricity for grids.

        The penta-space sea AWECS combination outlined is COOIP for public domain. 
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 798 From: Bob Stuart Date: 12/29/2009
        Subject: Re: Integrated penta-space AWECS
        I like the general idea of towing a hull with kites, and running water turbines for power.  However, there's an old saying that Hydrogen is the energy of the future, and it always will be.  Given that it is a potent greenhouse gas, hard to compress, bulky, and very leak-prone, I think it would be better to synthesize a liquid fuel for transfer to shore.  It would also be more suitable for voyages out to the wind, and back to port, which opens all the usual options for economical maintenance and crew changes.  Port visits would argue against the fixed turbines, favouring the underwater kite technology.  Strings of generators could be deployed as needed.  Liquid fuel production would also minimize windage and vulnerability in storms.  The key to survival of sea storms is to emulate a submarine as much as possible.
        We might start by converting a redundant fishing boat with a powerful net reel available.

        Bob Stuart

        On 30-Dec-09, at 12:22 AM, Joe Faust wrote:
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 799 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/30/2009
        Subject: US Patent 7,516,605 Electronic elongation-sensing rope
        http://tinyurl.com/EELONGATIONsensingrope
        Issued patent

        US Patent 7,516,605 Electronic elongation-sensing rope

        Makani Power, Inc. picked up on a March 2004 priority date. In 2009 the patent was issued. Will the instructions of this patent be used in AWECS effectively? If so, how?   Makani Power, Inc. came after the priority date; the inventors assigned rights to Makani Power, Inc.

        And what claims are novel and non-obvious?
        How much of the instruction has been, if any, used in the extensive ropes and cables used for over a century in various settings, especially in the military efforts at sea, etc.?  Elongation of elements has been the deep concern in industries for a very long time; electronic sensing of elongations has been deeply embedded in science and industry; so it will be interesting to clarify claim validities.

        AWECS very well may be needing to know well the real-time status of ropes, lines, cables, and wire ropes used. How will we know the condition of our tethers, bridles, conductive ropes, belts. endless loops, guys, stays, etc.? What will be the most cost-effective strategy for the care and maintenance of our lines? Upon a certain change in elongation of a small sector of tether, one might want to shut down and de-power an AWECS system; insurance might require that elongation-sensing of safety-critical lines be in place and working.

        Business IP paranoia:  Will this patent and the current tether application for patent on tether fairing somehow hogtie or advance our emerging industry?

        What say you?
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 800 From: dave santos Date: 12/30/2009
        Subject: Wayne German's "Venetian Blind Affair" in Low Level Jets (LLJs)
        Attachments :
        Wayne German is a rare prophetic voice whose 15 minute talk at HAWPCON 09 hardly sufficed to reveal his grand AWE visions. Wayne was the successor to no less than Paul McCready & Burt Rutan.at Boeing's old Flight Research Institute. I found Wayne's Tethered Foil paper on the net back on '07 & accepted his generous invitation to move to Portland & collaborate.
         
        Over a two year period KiteLab was founded & confirmed Wayne's key ideas by many successful small scale experiments. For example KiteLab's looping tethered foils are aerodynamically & even operationally in advance of looping wing projects by players like Joby & Makani, thanks to Wayne's concepts. His new DBA is called SoarEn & is a member of KiteLab Group. Hire Wayne to think deeply about your tethered foil & 80xx embedded microcontrollers (Wayne is an Intel processor guru & KiteLab Group has a Silicon Labs founder connection).
         
        Wayne has long identified LLJs as AWE's LHF (low hanging fruit). Why ignore vast energy at low altitudes to chase high-altitude prematurely? LLJs are the bunny-slope of the learning curve to the major Jet Streams. To harvest LLJs Wayne proposes a "Venetian Blind Affair" of kitesail train-loops arcing crosswind driving groundgens. This was hardly the thinking of most HAWPCON attendees who intend sparse flygens in the tropopause on single tethers. At times Wayne was almost hissed for persistently interjecting potent but unpopular ideas.
         
        Wayne also surprised the conference by creating an AWE award & bestowing it on Dave Culp, Dave Lang, & me (Dave Lang is still owed a boomerang on-a-pendulum trophy, as Wayne only made two). Being first Mexicano to win "Germy" make me very proud. Note to Wayne- Joe Faust is certainly Germy quality for advocating kite applications since 1964, as founder of KITESA, & is a co-founder of the USHGA, & is central to the emergent AWE movement.
         
        Attached is a JPG of a commonly invisible LLJ boundary intruding inland over Ilwaco, exactly as Wayne had informed me. Kites can be killed by the thin turbulent shear zone, but two kites tethered across such a common boundary can do "free-flight", sustained flight without fuel or conventional soaring conditions; truly a bold New Aviation. Its actual Wynken, Blynken, & Nod tech, as Wayne has for years passionately advocated. 

        		   @@attachment@@
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 801 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/30/2009
        Subject: Re: Integrated penta-space AWECS
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 802 From: christopher carlin Date: 12/30/2009
        Subject: Re: US Patent 7,516,605 Electronic elongation-sensing rope
        I know little about patent law but we have discussed intelligent skins for aircraft for years and I must believe that the marine cable laying and towing business has some such technology in place. So if they're trying to patent the general concept I would think it wouldn't hold up. If they have some particular implementation in mind (eg building strain sensitive optical fiber into the cable) maybe they could make it stick.

        Chris 
        On Dec 30, 2009, at 4:53 PM, Joe Faust wrote:
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 803 From: christopher carlin Date: 12/30/2009
        Subject: Re: Integrated penta-space AWECS
        Not sure how you patent this when the Germans are already operating boats using rigs like this.

        Chris
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 804 From: Bob Stuart Date: 12/30/2009
        Subject: Re: Extreme Gearing
        Does anybody remember the Dyna-Bee?  It is a hand-held gyroscope that one would set to spinning enough to feel the gyro effect.  Then, working against it, you'd pump up the speed of the flywheel by slowly orbiting your wrist.  If we had a heavy flywheel underneath a tri-tethered kite doing sweeps, it could be rocked slowly back and forth by the kite lines.  A small, high-speed generator would draw off power, and could be regulated to keep a constant output by letting the flywheel average out the wind gusts.

        Bob Stuart
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 805 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/30/2009
        Subject: Re: Integrated penta-space AWECS
        --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, christopher carlin <christopher.m.carlin@... Chris,
        Drawing are far subordinate to the written claims in a patent. If a written claim in a patent is approved and issued, then contest and appeal could overturn a claim or held as invalid by an appropriate court or not enforced at rebuke. Having a turbine in the water from a boat when the prime mover is a kite tugging is in public domain and obvious to those skilled in the arts related to the field. The patent related to that drawing would be read carefully for valid claims.
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 806 From: dougselsam Date: 12/31/2009
        Subject: Re: US Patent 7,516,605 Electronic elongation-sensing Maboomba!
        I say, come up with any machine that is a working machine in daily operation, take the data, and you will be far far ahead of endlessly blogging the topic to death.OK forget even taking data - how about a machine that is in daily operation?
        You gotta remember, the existing wind energy industry is definitely at the point of reliable machines in daily operation. That is at least where you gotta be to have an "improvement". In other words, someone's gotta cdome up with something - anything - that actually WORKS!
        A bird in the hand is worth 1000 hypothetical birds.
        I say let McConney be McConney.
        Let them sew up the entire market for flying wind energy in Ireland, and the rest of us can pursue it elsewhere.
        There has been some work done on artificial muscle fibers - maybe some prior art there...
        To beat McConney in a race, one will have to do more than stand at the starting line commenting on McConney's faltering efforts. Are they even ON the racecourse? Or have they gone "off-road" into the bush?

        And endless fixation on pulsating power cycles shows a detachment from the reality of modern rotating turbo-machinery.

        Some have noted that a circular path seems best (gee ya think?);
        Another notes that travel of the blades (kites) across the wind seems to get the most power;
        Congratulations, you're approaching the point wind energy reached thousands of years ago.
        Soon, some may note that attaching the cirecling kites at a central point counters centrifugal force and makes for more orderly rotation (a propeller).
        Another might surmise that repeating layers of such centrally-attached circling kite rotors might translate their rotation all the way down to ground level, layer-by-layer.
        Keep working on these various schemes, and as they are slowly refined, they all trend toward what I have already demonstrated: stacks of flying rotors turning a generator base.

        While reciprocating wind turbines are known, such as a "whale tail" water pumping windmill, generating electricity seems to work best with a circular path and if possible, a constant speed.

        (yes I remember someone on this list thought they had "invented" a whale-tail water-pumping windmill, but it has already been done and you might note that you don;t see any in use.)

        High RPM is needed for economic electricity production so if you can eliminate the gearbox and still get the high RPM you have eliminated the most unreliable component of a wind turbine.
        That's where you get tp the simple machines I have demonstrated: a stack of rotors tethered by a driveshaft, spinning a generator.

        I think there is a resistance to what can actually WORK since that removes the excuses and challenges one to produce operating machinery instead of blogs. OK so I guess I better shut up and get to work, eh?

        I will say though, that a reciprocating action certainly CAN be useful for pumping water.
        In that case why has nobody developed a reciprocating kite-powered water-pumping system?
        I sugggest it is because it is far easier to talk, blog, etc. about what one is going to build. We hear this stuff over on the "real" wind turbine yahoo groups (machines that actually exist and can make measurable power) all the time - "Let's make a windmill like this!"
        or the declaration "I am going to make a wind turbine like such-and-such!"
        We already know, most people will never proceed past a rough sketch in their mind. The more complicated the scenario, the less likely it will ever be built.
        Here's one thing I can offer: If you think you're ever going to come up with (build and operate) a workable reciprocating system, with pumping water being a major application for small wind turbines, and a reciprocating action actually being a common way to pump water, logic would say a water-pumping application would be the lowest-hanging fruit for a reciprocating kite-powered wind energy system.
        Maboomba!
        Happy New Year!
        Doug S.
        PS I think I have just invented a new elongation sensing attachment for my weiner!
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 808 From: dave santos Date: 12/31/2009
        Subject: Kite Water Pumping: Maboomba!
        Attachments :
          Doug,
           
          Water pumping is done by KiteLab, see attached JPG from WSIKF 08.
           
          Reciprocating power is essential engineering. Your van is not a Wankel after all. Diesel generators find a ready market. Try & get birds to go rotary. Its technical due diligence to explore all workable variations of mechanism.
           
          Sure, our AWE prototypes work only when the wind blows, which is of course a reciprocating cycle. Unlike surface turbines doomed to inferior wind availability, AWE taps more constant & powerful winds. The potential is naturally far greater than existing prototypes achieve. You reason as if unaware of these realities.
           
          It will be great to see you someday tap power from winds higher than a big HAWT. Many of us have actually tasted that resource & its sweet...
           
          daveS
           
           

           

          		   @@attachment@@
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 809 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/31/2009
          Subject: Multi-sets of counter-rotating blades, generators aloft, lifted sys

            (WO/2009/142979) AIRBORNE WIND TURBINE ELECTRICITY GENERATING SYSTEM
            
           Moshe Meller has some critique of Magenn and Sky WindPower machines.  There are some other interesting details instructed. E.g. Notice the off-center training; he instructs an advantage in that detail.  Another: Once up, as needed, some lower gained energy might drive a lifting helicopter body above.  Does this have something DougS will care about? DavidInisrael? SkyMill Energy?

          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 810 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/31/2009
          Subject: For AWECS: Higher-wind assets
          Please clarify the assets. Aim is to be comprehensive.
          References and analyses are invited for each asset.

          Inviting comprehensive and clear descriptions of the assets of operating AWECS in higher winds:

          1. Smoothness
          2. Persistence
          3. Mean velocity increase and its meaning for velocity-cubed impact
          4. Fewer insects to spoil blades and sails
          5. Fewer birds to protect
          6. Predictability
          7. Less general aviation
          8. Potential out-of-sight
          9. Cold (dissipates operational heat; cools food; etc.(tell...)
          10. Vantage points for various applicaitons (communications, view, potential energy relative to ground, )
          11. Less local micro affects by AWECS operations
          12. Strata options
          13. Time to fly during wind changes
          14. Available over more land points than equivalent low wind assets
          15. Dense three-dimensional windfield farming optional
          16. ???
          17. ???
          18. ???
          ...
          nn. ???

          ...all asset descriptions are welcome in this thread.

          Detractors===========================

          1. Cold (See potential benefits in asset list)
          2. Ice (For some niche AWECS, ice will be a source of water for ground use or for use aloft (living quarters aloft, hydrogen source, etc.)
          3. Lightning (This might yet become an asset.)
          4. Long tethering (unless FF-AWECS) (Some schemes will have long working tethers where length becomes an asset.)
          5. Inspection is further away. (Sensors, cams, radio report ..could help)
          6. Uses considerable cylinder of airspace (However, some farm schemes densely use the cylinder in full three dimensions)
          7. ???
          8. ???

          Missing above: Descriptive comment, references, completeness. All are invited over time to advance this thread. Results will become fill for studies, articles, books, studies, plans, presentations, sales text, etc.
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 811 From: dave santos Date: 12/31/2009
          Subject: KiteNotes: Turretless 360, Stacked Parafoil Turbine, AWE Winched Alo
          A Roller Fairlead, such as commonly used with winches, can be mounted face-up to allow a kite or aerostat tether to swing in any downwind direction. Tether twist is removed by a line swivel. Reciprocating power & reeling can transpass the fairlead with minimal disturbance & the hardware need not rotate about the wind compass by turret.
           
          ==================================
           
          Parafoils may be stacked as a Parafoil Turbine scaling method. Each parafoil can swivel independently around an inboard line to a pilot kite, eliminating bow-tie fouling of the stack. The foils will self-synchronize looping as a single centrifugal mass. Launching might proceed by sequential lifting & popping like packed parachutes.
           
          ==================================
           
          Winching Aloft thru the surface boundary layer, as done by HGs & PGs, is a low tech scalable AWE launch method, avoiding many problems of LTA & VTOL. Towing Aloft to altitude has similar advantages.
           
           
          cooip