Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                           AWES7216to7266 Page 42 of 440.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7216 From: Bob Stuart Date: 9/25/2012
Subject: Re: Soft wing efficiency

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7217 From: Dan Parker Date: 9/25/2012
Subject: Re: Gears and Airlines ///Fw: Google Alerts - airborne-wind-energy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7218 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/25/2012
Subject: Re: Soft wing efficiency

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7219 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/25/2012
Subject: Self-inflating

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7220 From: dave santos Date: 9/25/2012
Subject: Re: Soft wing efficiency

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7221 From: Doug Date: 9/25/2012
Subject: SuperTurbines with hinged blades //Re: [AWES] Re: Is blade profile

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7222 From: Doug Date: 9/25/2012
Subject: Re: Soft wing efficiency

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7223 From: dave santos Date: 9/25/2012
Subject: Re: Soft wing efficiency

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7224 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/26/2012
Subject: Fast drying of wet textiles, etc.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7225 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/26/2012
Subject: Sensing system and structure status

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7226 From: dave santos Date: 9/26/2012
Subject: Re: Self-inflating

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7227 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/26/2012
Subject: Re: Self-inflating

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7228 From: dave santos Date: 9/26/2012
Subject: Fabric Scaling?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7229 From: dave santos Date: 9/26/2012
Subject: Paleolithic Play Sail Revival Re: [AWES] Self-inflating

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7230 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/26/2012
Subject: Nod to primitives Re: [AWES] Self-inflating

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7231 From: dave santos Date: 9/26/2012
Subject: Atair's Heli-Chute

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7232 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/26/2012
Subject: Re: Atair's Heli-Chute

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7233 From: Robert Creighton Date: 9/26/2012
Subject: Re: Fabric Scaling?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7234 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/27/2012
Subject: Re: Fabric Scaling?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7235 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/27/2012
Subject: Re: Fabric Scaling?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7236 From: Allister Furey Date: 9/27/2012
Subject: Re: Fabric Scaling?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7237 From: Doug Date: 9/27/2012
Subject: a silly "industry"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7238 From: harry valentine Date: 9/27/2012
Subject: Re: a silly "industry"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7239 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/27/2012
Subject: Runaway AWES ... what to do?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7240 From: John Oyebanji Date: 9/27/2012
Subject: Re: a silly "industry"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7241 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/27/2012
Subject: Will kitricity solve NRL energy need to make jet fuel?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7242 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/27/2012
Subject: Re: Will kitricity solve NRL energy need to make jet fuel?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7243 From: dave santos Date: 9/27/2012
Subject: Re: Fabric Scaling?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7244 From: dave santos Date: 9/27/2012
Subject: "Super Carousel" AWES with high circumferential velocity issues reso

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7245 From: Theo Schmidt Date: 9/27/2012
Subject: Flying kite in circle [was: Re: Goela]

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7246 From: Theo Schmidt Date: 9/27/2012
Subject: Welcome Anders Ansar [was: Re: [AWES] Re: Royal Institute of Technol

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7247 From: christopher carlin Date: 9/27/2012
Subject: Re: Fabric Scaling?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7248 From: roderickjosephread Date: 9/28/2012
Subject: Mothra as a generator

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7249 From: roderickjosephread Date: 9/28/2012
Subject: Re: Mothra as a generator

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7250 From: Doug Date: 9/28/2012
Subject: Re: a silly "industry"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7251 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/28/2012
Subject: Two

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7252 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/28/2012
Subject: "I'm happy to tell anyone exactly how to do it - all they have to do

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7253 From: harry valentine Date: 9/28/2012
Subject: Re: Mothra as a generator

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7255 From: John Oyebanji Date: 9/28/2012
Subject: Fw: [AWES] "I'm happy to tell anyone exactly how to do it - all they

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7256 From: John Oyebanji Date: 9/28/2012
Subject: This emerging Industry

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7257 From: dave santos Date: 9/28/2012
Subject: Re: This emerging Industry

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7258 From: Doug Date: 9/28/2012
Subject: Re: Fabric Scaling?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7259 From: Doug Date: 9/28/2012
Subject: Re: "Super Carousel" AWES with high circumferential velocity issues

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7260 From: John Oyebanji Date: 9/28/2012
Subject: Re: do or don't

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7261 From: dave santos Date: 9/28/2012
Subject: What is "Significant Power Capture, Reliability, and Economy"? //Re

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7262 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/28/2012
Subject: Sky saturation vertically and horizontally: SSVH

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7263 From: dave santos Date: 9/28/2012
Subject: Re: "Super Carousel" AWES with high circumferential velocity issues

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7264 From: dave santos Date: 9/28/2012
Subject: Re: Mothra as a generator

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7265 From: dave santos Date: 9/28/2012
Subject: Re: Fabric Scaling- When is Bigger Better?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7266 From: Doug Date: 9/28/2012
Subject: Re: This emerging Industry




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7216 From: Bob Stuart Date: 9/25/2012
Subject: Re: Soft wing efficiency
I was guesstimating around that, thanks.  With rigid wings able to get over 100:1, can we aspire to a soft wing at 50:1 if we allow battens, etc?  Are the multiple shroud lines a big problem?  Can they be streamlined effectively?

Bob

On 25-Sep-12, at 1:06 PM, dave santos wrote:


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7217 From: Dan Parker Date: 9/25/2012
Subject: Re: Gears and Airlines ///Fw: Google Alerts - airborne-wind-energy
Veri nice video cg, can't wait to see the hardcopy in action.
 
                                                                   Dan'l
 

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: joefaust333@gmail.com
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 19:17:03 +0000
Subject: [AWES] Re: Gears and Airlines ///Fw: Google Alerts - airborne-wind-energy

 
To anchor: 

KLM, Rabobank, Schiphol and Delft University of Technology invest in
Ampyx Power, a leading company in the emerging Airborne Wind Energyindustry, has secured ...


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7218 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/25/2012
Subject: Re: Soft wing efficiency

Yes,but for 1.5-9 m² kites 2 lines of 20-30 m I experiment,L/D is not more than 4 (measures with anemometer).SkySails,Windlif and others seems obtain similar L/D with bigger kites.

 

But it is difficult to make an real comparison between paragliders and crosswind kites which show irregular speed and power during eight figures or loops,L/D = 4 being the top value,even not an average value.

 

The paradox is that the kite produces more traction at ground level into the flight window.Variations of levels of traction are increased by variations of kite speeds inducing a loss of efficiency.This problem can be partially resolved with a choice of trajectory allowing a more regular speed for the price of a light degradation of top speed.For a flygen regular speed = regular power = no needed smoothing devices like supercapacitors.

But it is not possible to have soft or even rigid kites wich are so efficient as rotors where angle of wind is equal for its whole area.

 

PierreB

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7219 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/25/2012
Subject: Self-inflating

  1. Debut of Goodyear Self-Inflating Technology for Commercial Tires 
    at the International Automobil-Ausstellung (IAA) Commercial Vehicle Show
     

  2. ?  

? Aim: Inflated AWES wing elements automatically keeping selected air pressures.  When pressure is too high: release. When pressure is less than selected pressure, then the inflation begins to occur until desired pressure is met again. Selected pressure might relate to control of motions of wing via morphing. Selected pressure might be part of keeping system shaped to meet the airspeed changes needed to respect storm or calm.  Flexing might be the recharge pump driver. RATS with an electric-based pump, perhaps. 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7220 From: dave santos Date: 9/25/2012
Subject: Re: Soft wing efficiency
Bob,

The sad fact is that inherent tether drag limits practical L/D to low values around those of standard airliners (~18, with comparable trade-offs). Even just bird poop destroys the wonderful performance of high L/D wings. At even modest scale, they can hardly land slow enough to a perch to not crack up. There is no sense designing a racing car for a truck's job.

Multiple shroud lines are one way to span-load a wing with minimal mass (mass drives parasitic drag). No one has figured out how to streamline our already terrific kitestring robustly without excess mass and cost. Kite arches eliminate shroud lines and fully span-load. Shroud-lines are mostly a single-line AWES expedient, with a potential to somehow foul as a common design defect. Its really funny how folks can't yet understand the kite arch as an optimal AWES principle.

Its also funny so few understand that one must keep overall AWES L/D deliberately low for maximal power at minimal cost. High overall drag (total AWES force parallel to wind direction) is in fact a dominant Power Extraction Law for us, with a bulk L/D of 1 close to optimal. Only the wind gradient and the need to fly clear of the surface drives even this high L/D (~45 degree avg. flight. angle, like Makani Wing7), the rest is vanity,

daveS
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7221 From: Doug Date: 9/25/2012
Subject: SuperTurbines with hinged blades //Re: [AWES] Re: Is blade profile
Hi Dave S.
Fair enough, I see what you mean. It's not in every drawing, but its in some, and I talked about it in the patent.

The problem with patents: They could go on forever.

Luckily, the patent system has found a way to overcome this. It's called "incorporation by reference". I know you know what that is, because I remember you using the term.

So if I say "in the fashion of a gyrocopter", and gyrocopters have hinged blades, then hinged blades are incorporated by reference.

While I specifically show some tilting hubs, its important to keep the drawings simple, so not every one shows every possible detail.

People think a lot of weird things about patents. Like "All you gotta do is change one thing..." Most people's background in IP consist of watching "The Jerk".

:)



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7222 From: Doug Date: 9/25/2012
Subject: Re: Soft wing efficiency
My wind energy career aerodynamicist friend says wind turbine blades can have an L/D of 200 but are still OK operating down at 100, if I remember right. Something close to that. Ahhhh but what the heck does he know? Oh sorry I forgot - no fact from wind energy wanted - nevermind, carry on. It will just be whatever you guys say. I will step back and plead ignorance. Nope, I'm shutting up. Yer not gettin' anything out of me. Nope, I'm staying silent. Whatever you guys say about L/D is just fine, and in fact we'll just call it a proven fact. Congratulations and good luck!
:)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7223 From: dave santos Date: 9/25/2012
Subject: Re: Soft wing efficiency
Doug,

The mismatch in our L/D numbers is due to the fact that a conventional HAWT does not fly. It is designed for zero VERTICAL lift. Its also not built as light as aircraft must be, so it is more safely neglected.

Try and fly a stock HAWT by any method known, and our "missing" drag inevitably appears by any added lifting surface, tether, control surfaces and payloads, inherent stability features, and any tilting.

This is yet another facet of a basic AWES engineering law for us to comprehend. The added burden of flight operations only pays at utility scale if we reach a truly superior wind far higher than a HAWT tower. The utility scale required to beat conventional windtowers (to pay high costs like pilots and crews) may be generators
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7224 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/26/2012
Subject: Fast drying of wet textiles, etc.
Have a kite arch flying.  Yes, a big one!
Have a business that needs to dry wet textiles or papers or other products.
Or perhaps needs to move people or materials from point A to point B.
Have a running line that takes the wet textiles up at one anchor and then down to the far receiver of dried textiles. 
The dance of the arch could be the supplier of energy for pulling the line of textiles from wet start to dry finish. 
Perhaps the operation is a dyeing business, clothes-laundry business, art-prints that need drying in the wind, etc.
Maybe wet people; take them up and around the arch and put them afar to the other end (entertaining? site seeing? people moving?)
Meanwhile the kite arch could be holding multiple WECS  into the winds and supply energy to a village. 

... just a waking thought I dare to share in a group that may be partially receptive of waking AWES visios. 

Imagine the movement thrill of walking a net bridge that is held up high by a kite arch!    Dancing, wobbly, jumpy, vibrating. 
Pay to play ride.  Build it and the world will come for the thrill.   Motion sickness, anyone?  Want to get off the arch quickly?
Just skydive off. Or slide down a rescue textile tube.  Stop off at the top-center restaurant for a vibrating delicious sandwich.
Tired of the long walk; hop into a cradle for a rocking nap. Care to fish; the water below has delicious perch?  Take your camera!

Here is hoping a smart big partner will ride their label on a dramatic KiteLab arch in Berlin.  
Otto Lilienthal might even visit and hang glide off the the arch!  
Kennedy's moon target could be remembered: hang a VAWT that looks when spinning as a moon figure. 



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7225 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/26/2012
Subject: Sensing system and structure status
Sensing system and structure status of AWES parts, wholes, and farms?
After sensing, then what?  Decisions!
Recording experience. 
Analyzing experience.   How did THAT work out?   
Modifying the design. 
Comparing versions.

Beginning: 

AWES community members and stakeholders are invited to post links on this matter in the group folder: 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7226 From: dave santos Date: 9/26/2012
Subject: Re: Self-inflating
The GoodYear self-inflation system is cool, but kites are even more advanced already. We use the Ram-Air Principle to enable soft-kites. Some kites even use ram-air tensairity (a whisker stiffened airbeam), which emerged decades ago. The evolution of kite self-inflation started with wind-socks, which have been around for ages, and were at times a well developed 3-D display medium on poles.

Then came the first true self-inflating aircraft, the Allison-Scott Sled, a kite that depends on self-inflation to extend it laterally, followed by the Morse Sled, which added self-inflated tubes on a fractal basis. The Jalbert Parafoil emerged during this period, completing a range of self inflating solutions across a wide velocity range. Now we have valved parafoils to prevent backflow collapse in lulls and stalls, and block most water intake in water-kite use. The most superior quality of our ram-air wings is that they stiffen up progressively with increased airspeed. Thus they are dominant in kite sports, outperforming LEIs and sticky kites.

The latest self-inflation concept are the new AWES kite archs like Mothra1 as a true self-inflated single-skin structures. These arches get a major lift boost by their ground-effect proportions when flown short-lined. The skinny arches of yesteryear are giving way to vast extents of membrane-filled loadpaths, which now obviously operate as an advanced self-inflated structure.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7227 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/26/2012
Subject: Re: Self-inflating
Nice.
Include earlier mid-1940s Rogallo couple's self-inflating limp canopy (while describing also ram-air self-inflating auxiliary stiffeners as options).

  1. Filed:  1948:   Flexible kite: Rogallo   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kitepatents/message/162      No sticks.  But stiffening was seen as optional. 
  2. Filed:  1950:   Flexible kite Allison.    Filed in 1950.  Longitudinal sticks only.  [Sleds. Scott Sled versions.Variations. ]
  3. Filed:  1953:   Rogallo couple:   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kitepatents/message/278    Single surface stickless. One interpretation is that this path may have been mechanically covered by the 1948 filing.
  4. Filed:  1955:   Hutson.      Kite.    No sticks.
  5. Filed:  1964:   Jalbert.      Multi-cell wing type aerial device 
  6. Filed:  1967:   Barish.     Filed in 1967.    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kitepatents/message/671   Fliexible gliding wing.   No sticks.
  7. Filed:  2003:  Culp.  Apparatus and method for aerodynamic wing        Stickless. 
  8. Ribbon-kite flip-wing spinning arch kite
  9. Ribbon non-spinning arch kite
  10. Mothra  tarp-family arch kites
      


Ram-air self-inflating seems to be a category that is distinct from having a system self-inflate air chambers to super-positive interior pressures beyond the pressures able to be reached by ram-air means.  Anti-deflation means are mentioned by Dave Santos in the fertile post before this post.   When wanted, maintaining a certain positive pressure in an air chamber by robotic means is a realm explored for purposes that vary (control, oscillation, shape-keeping, wing warping, safety, advertising, banking pressure for use in secondary devices aloft, ... )
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7228 From: dave santos Date: 9/26/2012
Subject: Fabric Scaling?
Rob,

Do you rest your case regarding the scalability of fabric kites for AWE? I was hoping for a clear rebuttal or concession to the objections raised to your belief in a Cl-related return phase scaling "barrier" for soft wings. You could also allow that you are not really an obvious expert specialist of megascale AWES concepts. It would be nice at least to know how big you imagine rigid AWES wings will scale, by either size or power.

Note that there were four votes in disagreement to your quoted comment during the Near Zero discussion, and none in favor. This is not a technical point, but raises the obvious question as to why Near Zero favored your comment out of hundreds to support a controversial conclusion. On the other hand, soft wing experts like joe and me were simply removed from the quantitative process, changing the final result materially. Please understand our zeal to correct this seeming bias, given that public policy will be mislead by any major errors in the Expert Elicitation process.

If you are done, we will let your last word stand, as an excluded group continues to contest Near Zero's take on this vital question. Thanks for elaborating on your intitial comment cited,

daveS
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7229 From: dave santos Date: 9/26/2012
Subject: Paleolithic Play Sail Revival Re: [AWES] Self-inflating
Oh yes, Rogallo! Although he's more remembered for sparred fabric HGs. Come to think of it, there are also the Hungarian and Tunisian sled-like paper folk-kites, but documentation is scarce. Such kites were widespread across regions. Kids fly self-inflating poly-bag kites now.

We know the nomadic Play Sail is very ancient, and it self-inflates. Perhaps the original kite was a playsail, and our megascale AWES solutions will derive from this kite lineage. Dave Culp even invoked the playsail in his OL shipkite patent. Note that the playsail is also commonly "arched" (staked-out), another "advanced" idea. "Wind-Dam" is another concept for us to ponder, its a megascale self-inflated structure.

Note: Moderate ram-air cell overpressure is easy with a tapered one-way valved intake, no outlet, and nonporus material. This amounts to a pump. A surge or gust can set the overpressure. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7230 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/26/2012
Subject: Nod to primitives Re: [AWES] Self-inflating
And the primitives, please stand up for some recognition: 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7231 From: dave santos Date: 9/26/2012
Subject: Atair's Heli-Chute
This is cool, a single-skin rotor decelerator by Atair, the clever "swarms of smart [parafoil] bombs" folks-




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7232 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/26/2012
Subject: Re: Atair's Heli-Chute
They may have picked up a thing or two from Barish" 

Rotating parachute

 David T. Barish               ( David Theodore Barish )

Patent number: 4844384
Filing date: May 15, 1987

[See also his earlier patent: 2797885 , which we link in our group filed on Feb 11, 1954. See: MKP164]

Click through below images to see fuller instruction by David:


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7233 From: Robert Creighton Date: 9/26/2012
Subject: Re: Fabric Scaling?
Dave,  Could you succinctly state the objections to my "Cl-related return phase scaling "barrier" for soft wings"?  I haven't been at all focused on this debate, and anything AWES newsgroup related gets filtered to my lowest priority email box.

I will allow that I am certainly no "expert specialist of mega-scale AWES concepts".  You are more than welcome to that title. The largest wing I have flown was a 40 m^2 inflatable wing we custom designed and built. That wing generated a terrifying amount of power (during the power phase of the cycle) in 15 - 25 knot winds.  Of course our limited funding has prevented us from testing a complete range of concepts.

My basic opinion is that flexible fabric wings with their lower Cl, and the challenges reliably controlling their shape under a wide range of wind and weather conditions will make them more difficult to scale.  The transitions and retract phase in a power cycle are also more difficult to control with flexible wings (at any scale).  

I still believe there are huge opportunities for small, mobile AWE systems using recyclable fabric wings in the off-grid world.  These systems will be much cheaper and faster to design, build, and market than any mega-scale concept. That being said,  no one has been able to demonstrate any AWE system using fabric wings that can generate continuous power reliably, let alone do so in a broad range of wind/weather conditions.  How do you de-ice a fabric wing?

AWES for grid electric power will take a much longer time to become economically viable.  The fuel component of coal and nuclear grid electric power costs is simply to small to drive conservative utilities to change technologies (absent government mandates).  www.nrel.gov/docs/fy11osti/48595.pdf

Best Regards,
Rob


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7234 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/27/2012
Subject: Re: Fabric Scaling?

Land use,even sea use for crosswind AWES are huge.A soft 500 m² with a 1000 m tether implies an uninhabited area into a circle in which tether length is the radius.With wind speed = 12,  a very good 500 m² soft wing L/D = 4 (with tether) can produce roughly 1.2 MW of top power,but far less in average due to the irregularity of power during eight figures,something like 0.5 MW,the same with yo-yo (generator at ground) during power phase or FlygenKite  (generator on a stick under the kite ).Concerning land-based or sea-based installations,for a kite-farm if each unity is at only 333 m  to the next you can put 9 unities into a km² to obtain 4.5 MW (retrieval phase is even not taking account).But safety requirements make the uninhabited zone to be a circle to be at least 10 km².Power density is something like 0.45 MW/km²,instead 12 MW/ km² for actual best tower-based wind turbines.If you add other problems like reliability it is difficult to imagine a really economically workable implementation.

 

With rigid-wing the problem is not so different.Actually Makani's experiments show systems where L/D roughly = 8 (always with tether).So power increases by factor of 4. Small wings (span = 8 m,area is perhaps 5 m²) were measured to produce between 4 and 8000 W with winds = 10 m/s.So a giant 200 m² should procuce 240 KW, with winds = 12 m/s 400 KW.If L/D is far above 8 tip speed of propellers will be too high.So a very high L/D would be better for a (yo-yo) scheme like Ampyx'.

 

So none of this systems (crosswind flygen or yo-yo are promising for great exploitations for grid,but only for off-grid (perhaps connected with electric car stations,but probably for some niches from toys to portabe AWES).

 

More promising grid applications seem to be some floating offshore wind turbines with a passive resistance to strong winds by leaning.If the rotor can exceed a value like 300 m for diameter (it is not so far in the time!) both low HAWE and high swept area (in fine higher density/km²) will be resolved and the possible place for AWE will be limited.

 

Another way is hybrid systems (http://wheelwind.com ) with a possible like-autogiro component (more the angle is high,more drag is used to maintain the rotor),where the ring rotor is sustained by suspentes and works a generator at sea level and on which the rotor is supported.

 

PierreB

 

 

 

 

   



 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7235 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/27/2012
Subject: Re: Fabric Scaling?


Some corrections:"Small wings (span = 8 m,area is perhaps 5 m²) were measured to produce between 4 and 8000 W with winds = 10 m/s".In fact it is Makani M4 (span being 5 m,area perhaps 2.5 m²).But the global conclusion is not changed since real average values of crosswind power are far to be economically efficient by taking account of power density/km² comprising the length of tethers.

 

PierreB

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7236 From: Allister Furey Date: 9/27/2012
Subject: Re: Fabric Scaling?
Hi Rob, 

For fabric deicing, not hard to integrate heating into fabric these days. See

Agreed tube kites do not have the required efficiency, however there is possibly a middle ground between  LEI and carbon fibre solid wing. 

Hope things are good in NC!

Allister


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7237 From: Doug Date: 9/27/2012
Subject: a silly "industry"
Magenn comes out with a totally lame-ass concept that is taken the most seriously of all, since it can be understood by a child. Then they quietly disappear. Note: plenty of lying announcements that they had a breakthrough, no truthful announcements that they gave up.

(You may be starting to understand that I was not exaggerating when I told you that most wind energy "breakthroughs" are literally nothing but lies.)

UDelfts breaks out their greatest minds, to come up with my teenage fantasy from the 1970's of a laddermill. They therefore name their effort "Laddermill" and yet promptly abandon the entire concept of a loop of kites operating in steady-state rotation, in favor of a single kite pulling out and being reeled in.(?)

I don't remember seeing any analysis of why laddermill or some version thereof was never pursued after so much hype. Seems like there's nothing about laddermill that has been disproven in any way. Why hasn't someone built about 50 versions of it by now? Start with one that barely works and refine from there - that is how it is done. Or is it just that they gave up without really even trying?

Major agencies like NASA and ARPA-E announce major efforts and quickly come up with next to nothing. And they're proud of it and write it up like a research paper!

Major aerospace agencies declare "breakthroughs", announce major efforts to conquer this nascent art, publish renderings, then drop the ball, coming up with nothing whatsoever.

I walk out into my back yard and see two operating wind turbines. With a large shop, lots of open space, plenty of wind, and parts available, I can see perhaps 10 or 20 promising directions for AWE, any of which would likely yield decent, steady-state operating systems, yet I see nobody pursuing any of these promising directions. From here it reads like a bizarre comedy!

I have perhaps 50 or 100 rotors of various diameters out in the shop, any of which can fly in a decent wind if tilted appropriately.

It's like watching a perfectly capable person say "I am going to walk in an Easterly direction", whereupon they immediately collapse into a helpless blob on the floor and seemingly have forgotten how to even walk at all.

Over and over again. I think the big agencies ought to just get together and declare AWE scientifically impossible, and get it over with. Then it will be even more exciting when someone gets AWE going. I think that's what I'm waiting for: officialdom to declare AWE "impossible", then we will really have a fire under our butts! If it's declared "impossible" we will have a challenge - as it is it just looks too easy. Just nobody cares to bother to do it.

I guess people are just too busy to bother. I just think this is such a comedy - nobody even scratching the surface!

Have a great day.
:)
Doug Selsam
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7238 From: harry valentine Date: 9/27/2012
Subject: Re: a silly "industry"
Its called the comedy of the absurd .  .  .  . and there was government funding involved in them. Delft is funded by the Dutch government, NASA and ARPA-E depend on the US Treasury, Magenn received funding from the governments of Canada and Ontario.

Despite the disagreements between Superturbine and Kitelab, they're both operating on private funding and seem to have come up with something worthwhile.


Harry


To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: doug@selsam.com
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 15:24:10 +0000
Subject: [AWES] a silly "industry"

 
Magenn comes out with a totally lame-ass concept that is taken the most seriously of all, since it can be understood by a child. Then they quietly disappear. Note: plenty of lying announcements that they had a breakthrough, no truthful announcements that they gave up.

(You may be starting to understand that I was not exaggerating when I told you that most wind energy "breakthroughs" are literally nothing but lies.)

UDelfts breaks out their greatest minds, to come up with my teenage fantasy from the 1970's of a laddermill. They therefore name their effort "Laddermill" and yet promptly abandon the entire concept of a loop of kites operating in steady-state rotation, in favor of a single kite pulling out and being reeled in.(?)

I don't remember seeing any analysis of why laddermill or some version thereof was never pursued after so much hype. Seems like there's nothing about laddermill that has been disproven in any way. Why hasn't someone built about 50 versions of it by now? Start with one that barely works and refine from there - that is how it is done. Or is it just that they gave up without really even trying?

Major agencies like NASA and ARPA-E announce major efforts and quickly come up with next to nothing. And they're proud of it and write it up like a research paper!

Major aerospace agencies declare "breakthroughs", announce major efforts to conquer this nascent art, publish renderings, then drop the ball, coming up with nothing whatsoever.

I walk out into my back yard and see two operating wind turbines. With a large shop, lots of open space, plenty of wind, and parts available, I can see perhaps 10 or 20 promising directions for AWE, any of which would likely yield decent, steady-state operating systems, yet I see nobody pursuing any of these promising directions. From here it reads like a bizarre comedy!

I have perhaps 50 or 100 rotors of various diameters out in the shop, any of which can fly in a decent wind if tilted appropriately.

It's like watching a perfectly capable person say "I am going to walk in an Easterly direction", whereupon they immediately collapse into a helpless blob on the floor and seemingly have forgotten how to even walk at all.

Over and over again. I think the big agencies ought to just get together and declare AWE scientifically impossible, and get it over with. Then it will be even more exciting when someone gets AWE going. I think that's what I'm waiting for: officialdom to declare AWE "impossible", then we will really have a fire under our butts! If it's declared "impossible" we will have a challenge - as it is it just looks too easy. Just nobody cares to bother to do it.

I guess people are just too busy to bother. I just think this is such a comedy - nobody even scratching the surface!

Have a great day.
:)
Doug Selsam


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7239 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/27/2012
Subject: Runaway AWES ... what to do?

Storm, poor maintenance, over-powering gust, vandalism, terrorism, poor inspection, ...(what else ??) might result in an AWES wing-set to become a runaway or breakaway or rogue kite system.   What might be the next step?  What systems might be in place for keeping losses to a minimum upon a runaway AWES event?  Testing the proposed mitigating schemes?  Certifying the schemes?    Each AWES installation could have on record estimates of possible downwind damages and costs for various scenarios; such costing could compare with the costs of mitigation schemes.   Describe some kitemares or awesmares and suggest prevention and mitigation.

(seeding the discussion with an incomplete starter text)

Mitigation for breakaway kite systems

  • Killability
  • Multi-lines to multi-anchors   AWES4461
  • Wing morphing for spoiling or gliding
  • Wing destruction (explosive reformatting wing set; ... )
  • Cutting tether for tether drop
    • cutting tether near wing; drogue tether falls
    •  
  • Chase aircraft (fetch, destroy, ferry, ...)
  • v
  • v
  • v
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7240 From: John Oyebanji Date: 9/27/2012
Subject: Re: a silly "industry"
Thanks, Harry.
It seems to me Doug is only eager to pull down rather than build with us. Why wait for an 'official' government declaration of impossibility on AWE before 'doing' it.
What with Kite-Pulled Ships already? We at Hardensoft await with eager expectation other demonstrable working AWE systems for ready global markets.
That wait I believe will not be long with the continuing efforts of positive collaborating Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association Members all over the world.
Further lifts;
JohnO
John Adeoye Oyebanji;
CEO, Hardensoft International
President-protem, Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association - AWEIA International

From: harry valentine <harrycv@hotmail.com
Sender: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 16:00:03 +0000
To: airborne windenergy<airbornewindenergy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AWES] a silly "industry"

 

Its called the comedy of the absurd .  .  .  . and there was government funding involved in them. Delft is funded by the Dutch government, NASA and ARPA-E depend on the US Treasury, Magenn received funding from the governments of Canada and Ontario.

Despite the disagreements between Superturbine and Kitelab, they're both operating on private funding and seem to have come up with something worthwhile.


Harry


To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: doug@selsam.com
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 15:24:10 +0000
Subject: [AWES] a silly "industry"

 
Magenn comes out with a totally lame-ass concept that is taken the most seriously of all, since it can be understood by a child. Then they quietly disappear. Note: plenty of lying announcements that they had a breakthrough, no truthful announcements that they gave up.

(You may be starting to understand that I was not exaggerating when I told you that most wind energy "breakthroughs" are literally nothing but lies.)

UDelfts breaks out their greatest minds, to come up with my teenage fantasy from the 1970's of a laddermill. They therefore name their effort "Laddermill" and yet promptly abandon the entire concept of a loop of kites operating in steady-state rotation, in favor of a single kite pulling out and being reeled in.(?)

I don't remember seeing any analysis of why laddermill or some version thereof was never pursued after so much hype. Seems like there's nothing about laddermill that has been disproven in any way. Why hasn't someone built about 50 versions of it by now? Start with one that barely works and refine from there - that is how it is done. Or is it just that they gave up without really even trying?

Major agencies like NASA and ARPA-E announce major efforts and quickly come up with next to nothing. And they're proud of it and write it up like a research paper!

Major aerospace agencies declare "breakthroughs", announce major efforts to conquer this nascent art, publish renderings, then drop the ball, coming up with nothing whatsoever.

I walk out into my back yard and see two operating wind turbines. With a large shop, lots of open space, plenty of wind, and parts available, I can see perhaps 10 or 20 promising directions for AWE, any of which would likely yield decent, steady-state operating systems, yet I see nobody pursuing any of these promising directions. From here it reads like a bizarre comedy!

I have perhaps 50 or 100 rotors of various diameters out in the shop, any of which can fly in a decent wind if tilted appropriately.

It's like watching a perfectly capable person say "I am going to walk in an Easterly direction", whereupon they immediately collapse into a helpless blob on the floor and seemingly have forgotten how to even walk at all.

Over and over again. I think the big agencies ought to just get together and declare AWE scientifically impossible, and get it over with. Then it will be even more exciting when someone gets AWE going. I think that's what I'm waiting for: officialdom to declare AWE "impossible", then we will really have a fire under our butts! If it's declared "impossible" we will have a challenge - as it is it just looks too easy. Just nobody cares to bother to do it.

I guess people are just too busy to bother. I just think this is such a comedy - nobody even scratching the surface!

Have a great day.
:)
Doug Selsam


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7241 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/27/2012
Subject: Will kitricity solve NRL energy need to make jet fuel?
Will kitricity solve energy need to make jet fuel?
U.S. Navy looking at obtaining fuel from seawater     By David Szondy    September 26, 2012

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7242 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/27/2012
Subject: Re: Will kitricity solve NRL energy need to make jet fuel?
The author put "NSL" in a couple of places, sic NRL. 

The source article:

The GizMag author came close to AWE without seeing it: 
Szondy wrote:  "With the NRL process, the raw material is seawater, so what is running the machinery? The jet fuel produced is only an energy storage medium, not an energy source. To use that is like trying to lift yourself off the ground by yanking on your belt. Until that question is answered, a vital piece of the puzzle is still missing."           Morphing the words for solution: Lift AWES wings off the ground; let the yanking of tethers bring in energy to run the machinery to make the fuel from seawater. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7243 From: dave santos Date: 9/27/2012
Subject: Re: Fabric Scaling?
Rob,

In the last five years we have made great conceptual progress toward true Megascale AWES based on fabric wing structure. This new work builds on the legacy of megascale soft kite pioneers like Domina Jalbert, Harry Osborne, Dave Culp, Peter Lynn Sr, Dave Gomberg, and many others. Many of these folks are still actively advancing the art.

No such experts nor their grand discoveries were allowed to influence Near Zero's "rigid wing favored" scaling conclusion. Megascale soft wing expertise was even summarily removed from the Expert Panel. Instead, your pessimistic opinion of fabric wing scaling was cited as if a definitive conclusion (despite 4-0 disagreement with your quoted comment during the panel discussion). 

As WindLift publicly stated at AWEC2012, your team is not really a wing-expert circle (but your mechanical ground design is outstanding). KiteLab Group's R&D includes advanced rigid AWES wings flown comparatively, and in hybrids, with soft wings, across all existing scales. We are true AWES wing experts, with many important innovations developed and tested.

The following fabric-based Megascale AWES ideas have emerged that address every major concern about fabric wings such as you pose-

1) Either by scaling law or existence-proof, tensile airborne array structure is the most inherently scalable wing technology. Its the only way to do gigawatt-unit scaling. The largest wings ever made are cellular or modular soft kites ( york', times, serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">2) By "staked out" (multi anchor) arched methods, megascale fabric kite stability is solved. The Earth itself between spread anchors is the ultimate rigid "control bar".  Graduated porosity is just one of many other low-tech stability factors to engineer with. Runaway risk is also mitigated by multi-lines. New methods were developed to rotate arrays. Cascaded launch of large arrays from a single pilot unit has been shown effective. Single-line jumbo rigid-wing concepts dependent on complex avionics are much more operationally and stability-challenged.

3) Megascale actuation is best done by massive industrial ground winches, rather than expensive super-light aviation-grade actuators with far shorter lifecycles (<1000hr). Similar logic applies to keeping giant generators on the ground v flying small generators. Large soft arrays helping drive the largest legacy generator plants (coal, gas, and hydro) as "Kite Hybrids" is perhaps the most promising AWES biz model of all. Near Zero failed to understand how strategic such specific ideas may prove.

4) Simple geometric studies and many actual experiments show that dense arch arrays use land and airspace at up to 100 times greater intensity than single-line concepts with a comparable scope requirement. Effective geoengineering to mitigate adverse climate effects is also far more feasible by the ultimately more powerful dense-array fabric methods.

5) True crosswind AWE is just as good with soft or hard wings (by power to airborne-mass). Yes, a comparative soft wing is bigger by wing area and does not have so high a "TSR" for equivalent power, but is so-o-o much cheaper and more robust. Its well worth testing both approaches head-to-head in comparative trials (fly-offs) to help settle the issue.

6) Regulatory certification is based on specific factors such as flight mass/velocity categories, inspectability, and conspicuity. The FAA has further cited as key issues runaway crash concerns and airspace utilization efficiency. Megascale fabric and rope arch concepts seem advantaged in every such requirement.

These Megascale AWES research findings have plenty of supporting evidence. For example, KiteLab Ilwaco has tested fabric kites repeatedly in real icing conditions and found they reliably and continuously shed ice flakes due to constant flexing, before build up occurs. Other teams validate the same observations about fabric self-deicing. Lift is destroyed by ice far more readily with fine rigid-wings, requiring avoidance or expensive added deicing systems (like inflatable rubber boots or heaters). 

To review your soft kite Cl return phase issue- 

1) Your logic is based on long-stroke reeling, an early AWES method widely considered obsolete in the Megascale AWES study circle. Long-stroke issues range form poorest airspace usage to high tether wear. A short recovery phase at the top of a loop or figure-of-eight suffices (short-stroke method).

2) Soft Kites offer the most variable-geometry of any wing type, and therefore the greatest possible control of Cl. Parafoil kites furl to as little as 1/100 of inflated projected frontal area. Single skin kites furl even more. These proven modes are available to long-stroke designers. The gedanken proof offered you involved a hybrid concept- of a rigid airframe stably ferrying a far more powerful packed soft kite back along a return-phase. Purpose designed AWES along these lines are possible, following the common example of roller-furling in sailing.

3) All major stability concerns are resolved with multi-anchored cross-linked arrays. One can even imagine the best of all worlds, a megascale fabric-based vertical-lift arch hosting aloft large numbers of smaller rigid wings operating crosswind.  Chaos of any part is cancelled by the bulk array, and the part recovers.

For lack of staff domain-expertise, Near Zero never understood the hybrid array concept space as a most strategic R&D option, and obviously failed to comprehend the key importance of so many other current ideas. They cherry-picked and cooked expert-provided data to fit a novice conception of AWES scaling possibilities. Only the full range of expert design choices allows the best R&D allocations.

Your concern that no soft wing AWES is in continuous reliable operation is even more true for rigid wings. A big reason is simply current experimental logistics. Kitelab Ilwaco has at least demonstrated continuous reliable self-operation of small AWES, including up to 40 self-relaunch cycles.  No fabric element has ever worn out, given simple maintenance and quick repair, despite some kites flown relentlessly for five years. Only session constraints limited operation. Lets let third-party judged fly-offs determine if complex brittle rigid wings can really compete with their simple tough fabric counterparts.

Let me know if any point made here requires more substantiation. I tried to keep the explanations short, but there is so much more supporting evidence that could be offered.

Thanks again for elaborating your thoughts on AWES Megascaling theory,

daveS


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7244 From: dave santos Date: 9/27/2012
Subject: "Super Carousel" AWES with high circumferential velocity issues reso
Previous gigawatt-scale AWES Carousel concepts crowded kites around the circumference of a giant turntable or circular track. Such affairs would predictably turn very slowly, even at the periphery, with high potential for fouled kites. The capital cost of so much mechanical mass was daunting.

An improvement proposed by KiteLab a few years ago was to reduce the original huge carousel to a far smaller stronger version with a massive vertical crankshaft receiving tug force from cableways radiating in all directions. Thus pre-aggregated forces of surrounding kite-array farm cells could sum to gigawatt-plus scale generation. The compact-carousel distributed-kite approach also solved the kite crowding/fouling issue. 

A bicycle wheel structural geometry was proposed for the compact carousel. Crank-driven, it would travel at far faster speeds for optimal electrical generation. A ring of TGV (electric bullet-train) "engines" of about 5MW rated brake output was conceptually envisioned as the moving rim of the wheel. In effect this is a giant single generator unit. The limit case then became the large centrifugal forces in running a train in a tight circle at TGV speeds of several hundred km per hour. Operational issues like "hot" generator repair and maintenance were new design hurdles.

The solution is elegant and makes for a far more mature "Super Carousel" concept- Merely keep the electrical train-ring stationary and let the rotating carousel be the "moving train track" impinging on the "train wheels" set into the surrounding stationary generator ring. The circumferentially stationed generators become easy to access during operations, to bring online or remove. The moving mass of the required carousel wheel is greatly reduced, easing design and capital cost.

The flywheel effect of the still massive high-speed wheel would provide some inertial stability, but flywheels as such are not really a competitive bulk grid storage solution, and the kite cells can be closely managed to match demand. As Feynman's father famously noted, an electric grid of generators is a virtual flywheel. One can also drive carousels in motor-mode. Such AWES concepts can scale well beyond all previous power plant technologies.


coolIP
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7245 From: Theo Schmidt Date: 9/27/2012
Subject: Flying kite in circle [was: Re: Goela]
roderickjosephread schrieb:
I was once able to fly my "Hyper 16" Flexifoil (two lines, 16 ft span
with carbon spar and flexible tips) around in a complete circle in a
very light wind. Rather the opposite of AWE: I expect I expended one kW
or so running during the time and at the end the kite was back at the
same place...

Cheers, Theo
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7246 From: Theo Schmidt Date: 9/27/2012
Subject: Welcome Anders Ansar [was: Re: [AWES] Re: Royal Institute of Technol
Anders Ansar schrieb:
Hi Anders,

Looks like your first post here, welcome! I remember meeting you a
couple of times at Weymouth Speed Week.

To the list: Anders is an expert in skate-sailing inside a wing:

https://sites.google.com/site/icewinghomepage/

Cheers, Theo Schmidt
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7247 From: christopher carlin Date: 9/27/2012
Subject: Re: Fabric Scaling?
Dear DaveS,

I must have missed the original remarks on this. Anyway it seems a very interesting question. I wouldn't have thought something one would vote on. A similarity analysis must be possible to demonstrate how these things scale. My hunch would be they get better as they get bigger but that's without really analyzing things like structure, material thickness and aerodynamics issues. I'd like to hear the whole story simply because I'm curious.

Regards,

Chris
On Sep 26, 2012, at 6:57 PM, dave santos wrote:


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7248 From: roderickjosephread Date: 9/28/2012
Subject: Mothra as a generator
You've probably described this before but... just checking...

Yes our favorite kite arch is a spectacular platform for testing RAT's (hate that name) and other AWES...
But if you're looking for a reliable source of phased tugs to drive a crank... consider the arch loadpath as a whole being the driver, ...

With live tweeking of the tarp back lines actuated near the feet, you could steer the tarps as a group, swaying mothra to one side of the wind window.

Now let the final single line (at the loadpath foot connection point) be run through a bullwheel to a crank and flywheel gen between the two feet.

The force imballance which creates the crosswind swaying effect is sent through the load path. Just where I think you'd want to take power from.

Of course Mothra being such a benvolent carachtered kite could host sets of wings above her topside or slung below to help with driving...
Now our driving loop looks like a flying moving rainbow or an eyelid arch with driving lashes....
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7249 From: roderickjosephread Date: 9/28/2012
Subject: Re: Mothra as a generator
Sort of like this http://youtu.be/yUL3qWaJSr8  but you would also want to influence the front lines of the tarps...
The tarp adjustment lines are not shown.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7250 From: Doug Date: 9/28/2012
Subject: Re: a silly "industry"
Hey John:
There's a difference between "pulling down" and predicting then noting that that someone else is pulling themselves down. I'm trying to help, and wht you're doing is called "shooting the messenger".

That is when the message is not wanted (even if true) so it's easier to change the subject to "the person delivering" the message.

There's nothing I've wanted to see for my whole life more than AWE - one of my top fields for inventing.

Far from trying to shoot anyone down, I'm trying to point out how easy AWE is, and I'm happy to tell anyone exactly how to do it - all they have to do is ask.

I've shown how one can put something in the air that generates steady-state power for about $20 in parts and an old kite.

Those other guys with the little red sled kite and two counter-rotating power-prope have also shown that a working AWE system is trivial.

The fact is, if you examine ALL the personalities from ALL the "teams" (and I even put that in quotes because one cannot take a "team" with a product like Magenn seriously) - of all those people supposedly "working" (playing?) on AWE, exactly NONE has any wind energy experience whatsoever. Or maybe one guy from wind energy I heard about who put his stamp of approval on kites with propellers, that Makani used to raise millions of dollars from ARPA-E or so I heard.

Not only do they have no experience, but they want to proceed without the benefit of any such experience. Typical! bring a wind energy person to AWE is like bringing your accountant to Las Vegas - he is just going to spoil all your fun by injecting reality!

Hey I was into AWE exclusively at first too - everything was in my head. I remember the way I thought back then, and I would entertain a lot of the ideas I now see expressed by would-be AWE people, and I just see the typical beginner missteps, except they are funded.

I get to the point that I'm just repeating myself, but I warned you ahead of the fact:
1) NASA will come up with nothing. How did I know?
a)Their approach matched newbie approaches from real wind energy.
b)They already "knew everything" (while knowing nothing) - it's easy to spot wind energy know-nothing newbies even by little remarks they make.
2) Your favorite bigname aerospace comnpanies will come up with nothing.
a)Honeywell's regular turbine is a joke in the industry
b)Their silly renderings were meaningless

John, I would request that you draw a distinction: A distinction between the message and the messenger. I am serving the role of the messenger, with my message targeting only the VERY FEW people who can or will actually DO anything about AWE:

1) AWE is easy and anyone can do it (is that shooting anyone down?)
2) Take up where wind energy left off, using what is already known, rather than re-learnng by making all the same mistakes for the last 3000 years. (good advice)

The fact is, nobody wants good advice. It will spoil their fantasy and make them perform.

My battle is a battle against ignorance.
I did not "pull down" Magenn, I just pointed out the SIMPLE truth for anyone who was not completely stupid, because I hate to see the blind being led by the blind when I can see. Maybe the people controlling the purse-strings saw Magenn as the answer to the energy crisis - I saw it as the big joke it was - the Sta-Puf Marshmallow Man! That is how stupid people have become. Dumbed-down.

So basically itr comes down to this:
If ANYONE truly WANTS - I MEAN REALLY WANTS, not just pretends to want....
If anyone REALLY wants to do AWE, I can show you how to do it.

If 20 teams all wanted to pursue a different fruitful approach, I could assign 20 directions, all of which would result in almost immediate success.

All I see is a bunch of know-nothings standing around with their hands in their pockets, making a lot of noise. Most of the energy is being wasted.

After a few years of this and no product, with the "players" starting to fall off, regular wind energy people see a familiar scene playing out. It's only the people with no background in wind energy , which, as usual, includes basically everyone involved, who can't see how typical all their missteps are.

I will repeat:
AWE is conceptually simple and working models can be made and flown in a few days on almost no budget, let alone if one HAD a budget.

If those with the budget and the desire want me to set them in a fruitful direction, I am happy to do so, meanwhile all I can do is try to warn people whom I can see are wasting their time and money because they are a few decades behind me in examining and vetting all these possibilities. I mean the idea that I could toss out the pulling kite method as a teenager in the 1970's and see major intellect, including NASA(!) glomming onto it 40 years later is almost so bizarre as to be funny!

John you have to understand the humor here:
Like most Americans, I watched the astronauts land on the moon. It was absolutely amazing, especially considering the level of technology back then. During this time period, I dreamed of AWE systems and passed through most of the design stages being pursued today in my head.

If you would have told me back then that 35 years later NASA would not be capable of hanging a windmill from a kite, I would have told you they'd be flying wind turbines on Mars by now, but we see the reality. Nothingness masquerading as somethingness. A lack of passion - a lack of inspiration - just a steady government job in a new food-stamp nation.

All I can say is AWE should be easy and if you want to really do it and stop wasting your time, get ahold of me.
:)
Doug Selsam 714-749-3909





Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7251 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/28/2012
Subject: Two
1.  http://youtu.be/wHVG-ZhuwzM      Sense how all that compression may be replaced with tension. Sense its use of the minor resource in 2D.
2   Then consider the upper resource with soft-wing arch farms in 3D  using tension modes. Use the in-place earth as the compression element.

Two distinct realms.
Two different resources.
Two distinct approaches. 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7252 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/28/2012
Subject: "I'm happy to tell anyone exactly how to do it - all they have to do
Doug Selsam, 
        How is one to do AWE?
Thanks, 
JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7253 From: harry valentine Date: 9/28/2012
Subject: Re: Mothra as a generator
Mothra may be a great technology to install between 2 x mountain peaks, or top of sides of a valley where winds predominantly blow in one direction (off the sea).

Lets hope that Mothra developers achieve some success in their endeavours in this regard.


Harry


To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: rod.read@gmail.com
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 09:39:30 +0000
Subject: [AWES] Mothra as a generator

 

You've probably described this before but... just checking...

Yes our favorite kite arch is a spectacular platform for testing RAT's (hate that name) and other AWES...
But if you're looking for a reliable source of phased tugs to drive a crank... consider the arch loadpath as a whole being the driver, ...

With live tweeking of the tarp back lines actuated near the feet, you could steer the tarps as a group, swaying mothra to one side of the wind window.

Now let the final single line (at the loadpath foot connection point) be run through a bullwheel to a crank and flywheel gen between the two feet.

The force imballance which creates the crosswind swaying effect is sent through the load path. Just where I think you'd want to take power from.

Of course Mothra being such a benvolent carachtered kite could host sets of wings above her topside or slung below to help with driving...
Now our driving loop looks like a flying moving rainbow or an eyelid arch with driving lashes....


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7255 From: John Oyebanji Date: 9/28/2012
Subject: Fw: [AWES] "I'm happy to tell anyone exactly how to do it - all they
Yes, Doug.
I join Joe to ask: 'Just How Do We?'
JohnO
John Adeoye Oyebanji;
CEO, Hardensoft International
President-protem, Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association - AWEIA International

From: "Joe Faust" <joefaust333@gmail.com
Sender: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 14:20:10 -0000
To: <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AWES] "I'm happy to tell anyone exactly how to do it - all they have to do is ask."

 

Doug Selsam, 

        How is one to do AWE?
Thanks, 
JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7256 From: John Oyebanji Date: 9/28/2012
Subject: This emerging Industry
Well said, Doug.
Great pitch.
This forum is indeed an open invitation/solicitation to ALL 'experts' and 'newbies' alike with any interest or even just an idea of what might be possible or 'impossible' in the identified 'Airborne Wind Energy' Industry field to freely give all they wish of all they have and also to receive or well reject whatever is freely offered.
A free gift or 'message' should nonetheless be delivered in a loving manner that makes for it's acceptance and appreciation by the intended recipients.
Need I emphasise that giving here is just that - giving and not trading.
We expect that connecting freely here can and indeed should facilitate trades between willing members off-forum.
Moreover participating freely behoves a due sense of joint ownership of the community with the shared responsibility to protect same.
As one pastor I know often says: 'You do urinate into a well from which you have drunk'.
Further lifts;
JohnO
John Adeoye Oyebanji;
CEO, Hardensoft International
President-protem, Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association - AWEIA International

From: "Doug" <doug@selsam.com
Sender: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 14:06:57 -0000
To: <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AWES] Re: a silly "industry"

 

Hey John:
There's a difference between "pulling down" and predicting then noting that that someone else is pulling themselves down. I'm trying to help, and wht you're doing is called "shooting the messenger".

That is when the message is not wanted (even if true) so it's easier to change the subject to "the person delivering" the message.

There's nothing I've wanted to see for my whole life more than AWE - one of my top fields for inventing.

Far from trying to shoot anyone down, I'm trying to point out how easy AWE is, and I'm happy to tell anyone exactly how to do it - all they have to do is ask.

I've shown how one can put something in the air that generates steady-state power for about $20 in parts and an old kite.

Those other guys with the little red sled kite and two counter-rotating power-prope have also shown that a working AWE system is trivial.

The fact is, if you examine ALL the personalities from ALL the "teams" (and I even put that in quotes because one cannot take a "team" with a product like Magenn seriously) - of all those people supposedly "working" (playing?) on AWE, exactly NONE has any wind energy experience whatsoever. Or maybe one guy from wind energy I heard about who put his stamp of approval on kites with propellers, that Makani used to raise millions of dollars from ARPA-E or so I heard.

Not only do they have no experience, but they want to proceed without the benefit of any such experience. Typical! bring a wind energy person to AWE is like bringing your accountant to Las Vegas - he is just going to spoil all your fun by injecting reality!

Hey I was into AWE exclusively at first too - everything was in my head. I remember the way I thought back then, and I would entertain a lot of the ideas I now see expressed by would-be AWE people, and I just see the typical beginner missteps, except they are funded.

I get to the point that I'm just repeating myself, but I warned you ahead of the fact:
1) NASA will come up with nothing. How did I know?
a)Their approach matched newbie approaches from real wind energy.
b)They already "knew everything" (while knowing nothing) - it's easy to spot wind energy know-nothing newbies even by little remarks they make.
2) Your favorite bigname aerospace comnpanies will come up with nothing.
a)Honeywell's regular turbine is a joke in the industry
b)Their silly renderings were meaningless

John, I would request that you draw a distinction: A distinction between the message and the messenger. I am serving the role of the messenger, with my message targeting only the VERY FEW people who can or will actually DO anything about AWE:

1) AWE is easy and anyone can do it (is that shooting anyone down?)
2) Take up where wind energy left off, using what is already known, rather than re-learnng by making all the same mistakes for the last 3000 years. (good advice)

The fact is, nobody wants good advice. It will spoil their fantasy and make them perform.

My battle is a battle against ignorance.
I did not "pull down" Magenn, I just pointed out the SIMPLE truth for anyone who was not completely stupid, because I hate to see the blind being led by the blind when I can see. Maybe the people controlling the purse-strings saw Magenn as the answer to the energy crisis - I saw it as the big joke it was - the Sta-Puf Marshmallow Man! That is how stupid people have become. Dumbed-down.

So basically itr comes down to this:
If ANYONE truly WANTS - I MEAN REALLY WANTS, not just pretends to want....
If anyone REALLY wants to do AWE, I can show you how to do it.

If 20 teams all wanted to pursue a different fruitful approach, I could assign 20 directions, all of which would result in almost immediate success.

All I see is a bunch of know-nothings standing around with their hands in their pockets, making a lot of noise. Most of the energy is being wasted.

After a few years of this and no product, with the "players" starting to fall off, regular wind energy people see a familiar scene playing out. It's only the people with no background in wind energy , which, as usual, includes basically everyone involved, who can't see how typical all their missteps are.

I will repeat:
AWE is conceptually simple and working models can be made and flown in a few days on almost no budget, let alone if one HAD a budget.

If those with the budget and the desire want me to set them in a fruitful direction, I am happy to do so, meanwhile all I can do is try to warn people whom I can see are wasting their time and money because they are a few decades behind me in examining and vetting all these possibilities. I mean the idea that I could toss out the pulling kite method as a teenager in the 1970's and see major intellect, including NASA(!) glomming onto it 40 years later is almost so bizarre as to be funny!

John you have to understand the humor here:
Like most Americans, I watched the astronauts land on the moon. It was absolutely amazing, especially considering the level of technology back then. During this time period, I dreamed of AWE systems and passed through most of the design stages being pursued today in my head.

If you would have told me back then that 35 years later NASA would not be capable of hanging a windmill from a kite, I would have told you they'd be flying wind turbines on Mars by now, but we see the reality. Nothingness masquerading as somethingness. A lack of passion - a lack of inspiration - just a steady government job in a new food-stamp nation.

All I can say is AWE should be easy and if you want to really do it and stop wasting your time, get ahold of me.
:)
Doug Selsam 714-749-3909

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7257 From: dave santos Date: 9/28/2012
Subject: Re: This emerging Industry
Doug is not really our messenger from the "real wind power world".

We have long had better contacts for that, folks like Dan Fink, for community wind expertise. With regard to utility scale "big wind", we have true pioneers, like Chris Carlin, who did megawatt scale experiments for Boeing many decades ago. As for current top experts that we rely on, there is Fort Felker, director of NREL, whose research center has the most diverse collection of large turbines anywhere, running for a generation in the incredible lee-turbulence of the Rockies. We also count Coy Harris, director of the American Wind Power museum, with over 100 windmills of every kind that he erected and maintains, including large GE prototypes, as "ours".

These folks really love to teach us without abuse. Coy recently spent half a day with a group of AWE developers, letting us experience what its like to be inside a large turbine during high wind operation, taking us crawling through a traditional poltermill, detail by detail. Fort is at our service, with real intellectual contributions to AWE. Not only does he have elite utility wind experience, but also a deep aerospace/aviation background. They appreciate our pioneering efforts at AWE; the same work Doug pours piss on.

Like many of us in AWE, including Doug, my own conventional wind background is intermediate. It was a thrill of a lifetime last year to experience centuries-old working Dutch wind mills. In Texas we live surrounded by Aeromotors that have run a lifetime, because we maintain them. My Dad grew up turning the family Jacobs turbine by hand if the wind failed during his favorite radio programs. I made dozens of turbines to amuse myself growing up, some (in the '80s) even whirling about airborne on strings for school outreach, some with multiple rotors on a shaft. But this was part-time experience. Many friends were more dedicated.

We were part of Texas becoming the US Wind Kingdom, with more installed capacity the California and Iowa combined. My hometown of Austin, is a Wind Capital, the most windpowered city in the US. Our social circle runs from wind/gas energy developer, T. Boone Pickens (on whose web site Doug claimed to be the greatest living wind inventor) to a vibrant chapter of WoWE (Women of Wind Energy). Unlike Doug, most of these women work in the wind industry full time, and are now eagerly learning about AWE from our community messengers. What we bring to conventional wind folks who want to help pioneer AWE is our new knowledge and diverse experience from related disciplines like aviation and sailing.

One cannot imagine such great wind folks claiming to be "messengers" on a basis of petulant narcissism, and then acting "shot" if anyone complains about the silly acting-out.



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7258 From: Doug Date: 9/28/2012
Subject: Re: Fabric Scaling?
You have yet to demonstrate significant energy capture, let alone reliability and economy.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7259 From: Doug Date: 9/28/2012
Subject: Re: "Super Carousel" AWES with high circumferential velocity issues
Why not build a small working model and power your home?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7260 From: John Oyebanji Date: 9/28/2012
Subject: Re: do or don't
Thanks JoeF.
The 'do' should actually spell 'do not'.
Regards.
JohnO
------Original Message------
From: Joe Faust
Sender: notify@yahoogroups.com
To: Self Hardensoft
Subject: do or don't
Sent: 28 Sep 2012 5:58 PM

JohnO,
Was "don't" intended?
About the well.

JoeF




John Adeoye Oyebanji;
CEO, Hardensoft International
President-protem, Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association - AWEIA International
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7261 From: dave santos Date: 9/28/2012
Subject: What is "Significant Power Capture, Reliability, and Economy"? //Re
Doug,

Your bias against most pioneering AWE engineering science is at least consistent. Science is just your blind spot (remember last week how stunned you where to learn scientists had seriously considered ET life long before you?). 

The small amounts of power that any of our toy-scale experiments produce, including yours, is scientifically "significant", especially insofar as a given concept may scale. There are also potential product niches, like charging cell phones in rural India.

As for "reliable", lets define that in terms of MTBF. Kites are very reliable. Despite long trying, i have yet to "wear out" any, and they seldom break. Seven weeks suspended in gales for a fabric wingmill, with no damage, is pretty good. That wing could have gone many times longer. Hobby kites may have roughly a MTBF of maybe a year (~5000 wind hours here in NW), and repair is quick and easy. None of my many prototypes have ever failed critically. You are invited to inspect and test any of them for basic reliability.

The "economy" of fabric-based structure is outstanding. One can go flying with a fabric wing more cheaply than any other basis. What is cheaper?

daveS






Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7262 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/28/2012
Subject: Sky saturation vertically and horizontally: SSVH
Sky saturation vertically and horizontally
... thick, dense, filling, 
Nodes, matrix, 3D-meeting places, cells, arrays

Even the following is sparse until one considers the scene as an element of a farm where the rise of multiple arches is repeated; 
and further where the WECS hang even while the macro arches sway left and right. The hung WECS lifted by the arches are not
drawn in this version. I am waiting for Rod R. to play with SSVH: Sky Saturation Vertically and Horizontally. And types here?
WECS hung that eat up chaotic turbulence for energy mining?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7263 From: dave santos Date: 9/28/2012
Subject: Re: "Super Carousel" AWES with high circumferential velocity issues
Doug asks: "Why not build a small working model and power your home?"

Connect-the-dots with recent KiteLab/Util experiments to see a group of us assembling all the elements of an end-to-end 1/40 scale kite farm along "super carousel" lines (and other concepts). We have a great hay farm location with anchors set. While directly powering the farm is possible, our funky experimental schedule is not the same as meeting domestic load demand. We could do a gridmeter.

We have built many AWES scale models using bike parts, with the wheel set vertical. The generators often  impinge on the rim or tread, so its quite the same as a super-carousel in principle. If anyone wants to make a faithful working model, a unicycle mounted sideways is a good short-cut. 

The funny part is running a house with an AWES concept designed for ultra megascale. It would be more like operating a cool toy train set rather than a common sense idea. Sadly, the "home" in Austin is raw forest under air traffic, so solar panels have to do. In the NW, KiteLab Ilwaco is surrounded by giant trees, with a bit of a walk to fly in the open at the river or beach.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7264 From: dave santos Date: 9/28/2012
Subject: Re: Mothra as a generator
Roddy,

Very Nice. You are closing in on Wayne's "Vertical Blind Affair" that shunts back-and-forth crosswind. Mothra-like loadpaths are a natural support geometry.

One optimization would be to extend the wings down wind (~1/7 aspect ratio) and add some space (~3x chord) between them. This would trade excess vertical lift for useful crosswind lift,

daveS

PS Another Mothra-family harvesting mode will be to flap like a bird, but this calls for a variant design. If you model Mothras for Util, you can get some $. They could also feature your other work in the AWE documentary Util is secretly producing.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7265 From: dave santos Date: 9/28/2012
Subject: Re: Fabric Scaling- When is Bigger Better?
Dear Chris,

It is amazing that giant fabric kites do fly so well. There have been perhaps two-dozen serious cases of giant kites and kite arrays (
We also find other close cases that suggest a similar dynamic. The mighty trawling nets that inspired Mothra1's loadpath network range in size up 20,000m2, operating in dense water at a fair velocity. The largest rigid hydrofoils on ferry boats operate at several times trawl velocity, but are tiny by comparison, maybe 50m2. Single hydrofoil units clearly have not evolved to the megascale of the nets. We can compare the two as power sinks for a sense of which method, hard or soft, processes more energy by maximal single unit. My crude guess is that factory-ship trawlers are roughly ten times the tonnage of the largest hydrofoils (which are multi-foiled). 

Everywhere we see limits to rigid structure, like large HAWTs, while the theoretic potential of engineered tensile structure is hardly tapped. Megascale AWES will still depend on compressed structure in the form of slightly pressurized airmasses as big as mountains, and geologic compression between spread anchors, a bulk medium more rigid than any carbon wing.


Bigger is better in a few specific ways, within ultimate limits.

-In LTA a bigger airship is advantaged by lifting gas volume-squared to skin area. 

-With kites a bigger line has strength-squared to drag. 

-A bigger kite is slower, easing control latency.

-Bigger means certain economies-of-scale apply (esp. pilot labor to payload).


daveS


----------------------------------

Dear DaveS,

I must have missed the original remarks on this. Anyway it seems a very interesting question. I wouldn't have thought something one would vote on. A similarity analysis must be possible to demonstrate how these things scale. My hunch would be they get better as they get bigger but that's without really analyzing things like structure, material thickness and aerodynamics issues. I'd like to hear the whole story simply because I'm curious.

Regards,

Chris
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7266 From: Doug Date: 9/28/2012
Subject: Re: This emerging Industry
This conversation is getting to be a cartoon of itself.
Dave S. you are getting to be a cartoon of yourself.
Let's boil it down: Dave S.=good; Doug S.=bad - there is that OK?

Women in wind energy: yeah I know all of them - she is a friend of mine...

It is fantastic that after 3 years of nonsense, you have actually met a few people in wind energy. Congratulations and good luck! Dan Fink - yes you are correct that is an actual name from wind energy - very good - I just had an e-mail from Dan inviting me to a huge party for wind energy people.
I don't suppose anyone else... er um nevermind.
OK gotta run - I think its getting windy out there!
:)