Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                           AWES7166to7215 Page 41 of 440.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7166 From: harry valentine Date: 9/20/2012
Subject: Re: Welcome to Naveed Syed

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7167 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/20/2012
Subject: Khaled

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7168 From: Rod Read Date: 9/21/2012
Subject: Re: Royal Institute of Technology of Sweden ///Fw: Students interest

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7169 From: Pouyan Date: 9/21/2012
Subject: Re: LAGI are catching on

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7170 From: roderickjosephread Date: 9/21/2012
Subject: Re: Welcome to Naveed Syed

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7171 From: harry valentine Date: 9/21/2012
Subject: Re: Welcome to Naveed Syed - Carousel proposal

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7172 From: dave santos Date: 9/21/2012
Subject: Re: LAGI are catching on

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7173 From: dave santos Date: 9/21/2012
Subject: Carousel Alternative Concept: Legacy Power Plants Retrofitted as Kit

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7174 From: dave santos Date: 9/21/2012
Subject: EnerKite/FlySurfer 30kW Class AWES Product at Husum 2012

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7175 From: dave santos Date: 9/21/2012
Subject: Classifying MegaScale AWES- "Flocking", "Swarming", and "Teaming"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7176 From: dave santos Date: 9/21/2012
Subject: Epilogic's "Mechanical Diode" for Kite Farm Arrays

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7177 From: Doug Date: 9/22/2012
Subject: Sci-Am Article confirms what I knew as a kid

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7178 From: harry valentine Date: 9/22/2012
Subject: Re: Sci-Am Article confirms what I knew as a kid

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7179 From: dave santos Date: 9/22/2012
Subject: Another Maverick Paper Argues Severe Limits on Global WindPower

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7180 From: dave santos Date: 9/22/2012
Subject: "Earth to Doug" //Re: [AWES] Sci-Am Article confirms what I knew as

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7181 From: dave santos Date: 9/22/2012
Subject: Near Zero Findings //Re: Soft Wing Scaling

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7182 From: Doug Date: 9/23/2012
Subject: Re: Another Maverick Paper Argues Severe Limits on Global WindPower

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7183 From: Doug Date: 9/23/2012
Subject: Near Zero Findings //Re: Soft Wing Scaling

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7184 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/23/2012
Subject: (no subject)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7185 From: Doug Date: 9/23/2012
Subject: Near Zero Findings //Re: Soft Wing Scaling

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7186 From: Bob Stuart Date: 9/23/2012
Subject: Re: [1 Attachment]

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7187 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/23/2012
Subject: Re:

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7188 From: Bob Stuart Date: 9/23/2012
Subject: Re:

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7189 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 9/23/2012
Subject: Onshore,then offshore,then farshore

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7190 From: dave santos Date: 9/23/2012
Subject: Two Obscure AWE Videos (and the AWE video explosion)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7191 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 9/24/2012
Subject: Is blade profile for like-autogiro mode good for both production and

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7192 From: dave santos Date: 9/24/2012
Subject: Re: Is blade profile for like-autogiro mode good for both production

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7193 From: dave santos Date: 9/24/2012
Subject: YaleE360 AWE Article

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7194 From: Doug Date: 9/24/2012
Subject: superturbine w/gen off ground

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7195 From: Doug Date: 9/24/2012
Subject: Re: Two Obscure AWE Videos (and the AWE video explosion)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7196 From: nav.syed Date: 9/24/2012
Subject: Re: Welcome to Naveed Syed

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7197 From: Bob Stuart Date: 9/24/2012
Subject: Re: Welcome to Naveed Syed

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7198 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/24/2012
Subject: Re: Welcome to Naveed Syed

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7199 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/24/2012
Subject: Re: YaleE360 AWE Article

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7200 From: harry valentine Date: 9/24/2012
Subject: Re: YaleE360 AWE Article

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7201 From: Bob Stuart Date: 9/24/2012
Subject: Re: YaleE360 AWE Article

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7202 From: harry valentine Date: 9/24/2012
Subject: Re: YaleE360 AWE Article

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7203 From: dave santos Date: 9/24/2012
Subject: National Geographic Coverage

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7204 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/25/2012
Subject: Re: National Geographic Coverage

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7205 From: Anders Ansar Date: 9/25/2012
Subject: Re: Royal Institute of Technology of Sweden ///Fw: Students interest

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7206 From: Doug Date: 9/25/2012
Subject: Re: Is blade profile for like-autogiro mode good for both production

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7207 From: Doug Date: 9/25/2012
Subject: Re: YaleE360 AWE Article

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7208 From: dave santos Date: 9/25/2012
Subject: Re: National Geographic Coverage

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7209 From: dave santos Date: 9/25/2012
Subject: SuperTurbines with hinged blades //Re: [AWES] Re: Is blade profile

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7210 From: dave santos Date: 9/25/2012
Subject: Biomimetics- Best Primer Yet on (Bird) Flight

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7211 From: dave santos Date: 9/25/2012
Subject: Gears and Airlines ///Fw: Google Alerts - airborne-wind-energy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7212 From: harry valentine Date: 9/25/2012
Subject: Re: SuperTurbines with hinged blades //Re: [AWES] Re: Is blade prof

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7213 From: Bob Stuart Date: 9/25/2012
Subject: Re: Soft wing efficiency

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7214 From: dave santos Date: 9/25/2012
Subject: Re: Soft wing efficiency

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7215 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/25/2012
Subject: Re: Gears and Airlines ///Fw: Google Alerts - airborne-wind-energy




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7166 From: harry valentine Date: 9/20/2012
Subject: Re: Welcome to Naveed Syed
There is merit in a multiple kite system being linked to a central ground-level generator via ropeways or by guided cables .  .  .  . an assembly of a dozen or more large kites may be capable of generating over 1MW in a wind blowing at 44-ft/sec at about 3000-ft elevation.

Harry 


To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: santos137@yahoo.com
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 18:34:21 -0700
Subject: Re: [AWES] Welcome to Naveed Syed

 

Hi Naveed,

An alternate method is to fly each kite(s) unit from a separate ground anchor and run power ropeways from all the anchors to a central generator ( a "fan-in" layout). Same overall capacity, but without needing an enormous wheel with kites crowded on.

daveS



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7167 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/20/2012
Subject: Khaled
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7168 From: Rod Read Date: 9/21/2012
Subject: Re: Royal Institute of Technology of Sweden ///Fw: Students interest
Hi Deniz,
I have an AWE design, it's fairly easy to construct.
Most of the construction notes are on http://kitepowercoop.org as open source non commercial hardware.
I'll be updating the site a bit more today hopefully.
Feel free to try it out. And if you need any advice don't be shy in asking.


Rod Read

15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7169 From: Pouyan Date: 9/21/2012
Subject: Re: LAGI are catching on
Dear Airborne Wind Energy group
I'm one of the guys worked on "Sky Domes".I'd like to mention that we are proud to have your attention. thank you so much for your welcome.
your message make us more hopeful to the future and also the competition.
best regards
Pouyan Bizet, Head chief at the zero atelier.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7170 From: roderickjosephread Date: 9/21/2012
Subject: Re: Welcome to Naveed Syed
In order to make the ring infrastructure lighter.... You can run on one single circular I section rail. Each cart on the rail can just ride the rail e.g. be non generating. Kite control being done at altitude. Tie the carts tightly together around the ring. Now tie each cart to a central generating carousel / hub.
The control algorythms for the kites wouldn't be simple since the kite tethers all go round at the same speed no matter the aspect... but I'm sure it's do-able.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7171 From: harry valentine Date: 9/21/2012
Subject: Re: Welcome to Naveed Syed - Carousel proposal
Hi Roderick,

For a diameter of 1500-ft, circumference would be 4710-ft and if the kite is moving at 30-ft/sec in wind blowing at 45-ft/sec, 1-rotation would take 157-seconds or 2.5-minutes. The slow moving blades on the biggest tower-based turbines rotate at a higher speed. Pulling power from the wheels of the carousel carriage would use existing and proven technology.

Computer control, with back-up computers, would need to control the kites.


Harry


To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: rod.read@gmail.com
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 08:24:29 +0000
Subject: [AWES] Re: Welcome to Naveed Syed

 
In order to make the ring infrastructure lighter.... You can run on one single circular I section rail. Each cart on the rail can just ride the rail e.g. be non generating. Kite control being done at altitude. Tie the carts tightly together around the ring. Now tie each cart to a central generating carousel / hub.
The control algorythms for the kites wouldn't be simple since the kite tethers all go round at the same speed no matter the aspect... but I'm sure it's do-able.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7172 From: dave santos Date: 9/21/2012
Subject: Re: LAGI are catching on
Dear Pouyan,

Your "Sky Domes" concept is close in spirit to various Airborne Wind Energy (AWE) concepts. Its similar to a "Wind Dam"; in fact the beautiful kites your team envisions would likely operate at a more back-inclined angle to produce maximum power. We hope someone will make a working prototype. 

I have tested embedded turbines in membranes, and it works, but will require considerable further study to perfect the idea (to optimize the venturi inlet, which is well suggested in your depictions, and to define the best turbine). Its an interesting open question if a large cheap membrane with many small embedded turbines can directly compete with a large conventional turbine, on an equivalent frontal area basis.

Lets keep in touch as the FreshKills project develops. Perhaps all the LAGI kite-based entries can team together with the AWE engineering team to create an energy zoo in the sky. The engineering-oriented participants on this forum look forward to helping make some sort of kite energy a key part of the NYC energy mix.

dave santos
KiteLab Group
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7173 From: dave santos Date: 9/21/2012
Subject: Carousel Alternative Concept: Legacy Power Plants Retrofitted as Kit
Is there any utility scale AWES concept hotter than this?

=======================================

PROBLEM: How to most effectively sum the power of many kites to drive the largest generators, for economy-of-scale.

=======================================

Harry gets it-

"There is merit in a multiple kite system being linked to a central ground-level generator via ropeways..."


A logical next step is to run our kite-driven ropeways right into existing power plants, to directly conserve gas, coal, hydro, etc. This is a most attractive AWES early revenue model: Direct offset of stable baseload demand, with low capital requirement. Such ideas are well suited for small-scale experimentation (like 50 Prism flip kites on sprags to drive a single ~5kW generator)


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7174 From: dave santos Date: 9/21/2012
Subject: EnerKite/FlySurfer 30kW Class AWES Product at Husum 2012

There now are at least three commercial AWES in advanced development at the ~30kW rated power range. Two are parafoil-based*, one is an LEI**, and one even has an auto launch-land solution***.

SkySails*  ***     Enerkite*     WindLift**

FlySurfer is a top power parafoil company. Our pal Reinhart at FlySurfer has hinted about this EnerKite partnered AWES, but here it is in public-

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7175 From: dave santos Date: 9/21/2012
Subject: Classifying MegaScale AWES- "Flocking", "Swarming", and "Teaming"
We are all still working out how to best semantically express novel but basic AWE ideas for the purposes of science, engineering, and FARs (FAA/ICAO aviation regulations). A sound complete nomenclature will ease communication and prevent misunderstanding. 

Standard terms are perhaps most lacking in the MegaScale AWES concept space. A major divide in megascale dense-arrays is between kites that are not crosslinked aloft, and those that are. Hence, some new wording proposals-
 

1) Let dense arrays of kite elements aloft be known as "flocks".  

2) Lets call non-crosslinked cases "swarms". 

3) Lets dub crosslinked cases "teams". 

     Usage- "A Spider-Mill is an AWES flock concept intermediate between a swarm and a team."

4) Lets also define "gang" as synonymous with "flock", especially in reference to a "gangline". 

     Usage- "A Spider-Mill has kites on leaders set along a main gangline."

5) Let "dense" in this context be defined as "flying in close formation or proximity".

6) "Array" is a common term, but lets formally define it as any aggregation of kite elements, including entire kite farms.


Note: A pending MegaScale AWES Concepts Report and TACO Updates will follow the proposed new conventions. Feel free to suggest improvements.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7176 From: dave santos Date: 9/21/2012
Subject: Epilogic's "Mechanical Diode" for Kite Farm Arrays
A "mechanical diode" is a one-way drive like a sprag, clutch, or ratchet. Used with a spring return, or opposed, they can be well-suited to convert kite tug cycles into rotary power. Such an AWES can be a single tiny unit, but the potential exists for large arrays of semi-chaotic kite elements to collectively drive common shafting well into gigawatt scale. 


Progress continues in mechanical drives. This one-way drive innovation comes from from auto racing; Epilogic's Mechanical Diode (TM)-

http://www.epilogics.com/md/index.htm%c2%a0


Check out the entire site for excellent background information.

The AWES idea here is that reciprocating and geared power can win the race if its shown to be far cheaper and more practical than any direct-rotary design (like most cars). 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7177 From: Doug Date: 9/22/2012
Subject: Sci-Am Article confirms what I knew as a kid
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=no-limit-for-wind-power

I don't think I'll bother to read this one - I'm sure I already know what's in it... I remember contacting Sci-Am about SuperTurbine(R) when it was first patented, and I couldn't find anyone the LEAST bit interested. That was when I realized the pundits and authorities we rely on for our facts are often completely clueless.

Here's what I don't get:
Seems like I spend my whole life waiting for "science" to catch up with what I already knew as a little kid. Like when I was told nobody knew what the appendix was for and said "maybe it's there to keep a starter culture of beneficial bacteria alive." Decades later of course, the "scientists" figure out what has been staring them in the face the whole time.

Or how 'bout when "scientists" said life was restricted to Earth, whereas I thought there should be life throughout the universe, and waited decades for the "scientists" to even propose what I already knew. I wondered, why do they call me a little kid, and they call scientists scientists, if, as a little kid, I can tell you what the scientists will say in 40 years?

Really, we have enough wind to power civilization? This is news, again? Like any idiot can't see, with the vast and open skies, that there's some major wind energy up there to harvest? Gee ya think?

This reminds me of a primitive village trying to figure out how to cross a river, and they need a witch doctor to show up in a special costume, to do a special dance, a dance that tells the story of the river - that the river has water in it, then the villagers point out that, technically-speaking, one can float in water...

They know things float in water - they've seen objects float by. They know wood floats, and they know how to build things out of wood. One kid makes little model boats and watches them float away just for fun but nobody notices.

Year after year the villagers get together and their witch doctor does the special dance again, celebrating the fact that the river has water in it.

The one kid wonders why the villagers need the witch doctor to tell the story of the river again - can't they plainly see the river is full of water without a witch doctor to verify such a simple fact by doing a special dance, in a special costume?

Especially interesting is the phenomenon of the celebrated uber-witch-doctor that travels from village to village, always confirming the existence of rivers filled with water, expressing the new theme, dictated from even higher uber-witch-doctors, that it would benefit all tribes to be able to get across these rivers.

The very highest uber-witch doctors don't actually know how to DO anything, they are just very very good at "casting spells", a skill by which the primitive villagers are most impressed, and which they value above all other skills...

Well, it will be interesting to watch the increasing number of villagers who suddenly see the obvious, the river, yet can't figure out what to do with it.

How much longer will people go on pretending its hard to figure out?
:)
Doug Selsam
Maboomba!
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7178 From: harry valentine Date: 9/22/2012
Subject: Re: Sci-Am Article confirms what I knew as a kid
Interesting article at Sci-Am. 

For Arctic area power generation, a modified version of the super-turbine may be a contender .  .  . . 2 x super-turbines installed inside a V-shaped duct mounted atop a tower. The V-shaped duct is designed to point the apex into the wind .  .  it  has adjustable air intakes on the outer side with adjustable extractor vents on the inner side. In extreme wind conditions, the ducts are partially closed, with just enough wind passing through to generate power, while everybody else's wind turbine is shut down.

Now to figure out how to make the thing go airborne.


Harry


To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: doug@selsam.com
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 14:03:16 +0000
Subject: [AWES] Sci-Am Article confirms what I knew as a kid

 
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=no-limit-for-wind-power

I don't think I'll bother to read this one - I'm sure I already know what's in it... I remember contacting Sci-Am about SuperTurbine(R) when it was first patented, and I couldn't find anyone the LEAST bit interested. That was when I realized the pundits and authorities we rely on for our facts are often completely clueless.

Here's what I don't get:
Seems like I spend my whole life waiting for "science" to catch up with what I already knew as a little kid. Like when I was told nobody knew what the appendix was for and said "maybe it's there to keep a starter culture of beneficial bacteria alive." Decades later of course, the "scientists" figure out what has been staring them in the face the whole time.

Or how 'bout when "scientists" said life was restricted to Earth, whereas I thought there should be life throughout the universe, and waited decades for the "scientists" to even propose what I already knew. I wondered, why do they call me a little kid, and they call scientists scientists, if, as a little kid, I can tell you what the scientists will say in 40 years?

Really, we have enough wind to power civilization? This is news, again? Like any idiot can't see, with the vast and open skies, that there's some major wind energy up there to harvest? Gee ya think?

This reminds me of a primitive village trying to figure out how to cross a river, and they need a witch doctor to show up in a special costume, to do a special dance, a dance that tells the story of the river - that the river has water in it, then the villagers point out that, technically-speaking, one can float in water...

They know things float in water - they've seen objects float by. They know wood floats, and they know how to build things out of wood. One kid makes little model boats and watches them float away just for fun but nobody notices.

Year after year the villagers get together and their witch doctor does the special dance again, celebrating the fact that the river has water in it.

The one kid wonders why the villagers need the witch doctor to tell the story of the river again - can't they plainly see the river is full of water without a witch doctor to verify such a simple fact by doing a special dance, in a special costume?

Especially interesting is the phenomenon of the celebrated uber-witch-doctor that travels from village to village, always confirming the existence of rivers filled with water, expressing the new theme, dictated from even higher uber-witch-doctors, that it would benefit all tribes to be able to get across these rivers.

The very highest uber-witch doctors don't actually know how to DO anything, they are just very very good at "casting spells", a skill by which the primitive villagers are most impressed, and which they value above all other skills...

Well, it will be interesting to watch the increasing number of villagers who suddenly see the obvious, the river, yet can't figure out what to do with it.

How much longer will people go on pretending its hard to figure out?
:)
Doug Selsam
Maboomba!


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7179 From: dave santos Date: 9/22/2012
Subject: Another Maverick Paper Argues Severe Limits on Global WindPower
This scary paper from last year seems to wholly overlook or profoundly underestimate major regeneration factors in global winds, but its hard to judge precisely, since someone has to actually purchase it. Its seems like a hasty echo of Miller et al. from MPI. 

Perhaps someone can find a free copy to share-


Global wind power potential: Physical and technological limits

  • a Applied Physics, Campus Miguel Delibes, University of Valladolid, 47011 Valladolid, Spain
  • b Systems Engineering and Automatic Control, Paseo del Cauce s/n, University of Valladolid, 47011 Valladolid, Spain
  • c Electric Engineering, Francisco Mendizabal s/n, University of Valladolid, Spain

Abstract

This paper is focused on a new methodology for the global assessment of wind power potential. Most of the previous works on the global assessment of the technological potential of wind power have used bottom-up methodologies (e.g. [2][4] and [31]). Economic, ecological and other assessments have been developed, based on these technological capacities. However, this paper tries to show that the reported regional and global technological potential are flawed because they do not conserve the energetic balance on Earth, violating the first principle of energy conservation (Gans et al., 2010). We propose a top–down approach, such as that in Miller et al. (2010), to evaluate the physical–geographical potential and, for the first time, to evaluate the global technological wind power potential, while acknowledging energy conservation. The results give roughly 1 TW for the top limit of the future electrical potential of wind energy. This value is much lower than previous estimates and even lower than economic and realizable potentials published for the mid-century (e.g. [8][10] and [52]).

Highlights

► Reported wind power potentials are flawed because they violate energy conservation. ► For the first time, it is evaluated the technological wind power potential with a top–down approach. ► Our results show 1 TWe for the limit of wind power energy, which is much lower than previous estimates.

Keywords

  • Renewable energy potential; 
  • Wind energy; 
  • Global energy assessment
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7180 From: dave santos Date: 9/22/2012
Subject: "Earth to Doug" //Re: [AWES] Sci-Am Article confirms what I knew as
Doug,

Thanks for the Scientific American "the Sky is the Limit" link. I found the Castro et al geophysics citation in the roiled comments section. As wind has become a serious source of global energy, its attracting new enemies.

You claim: ""I spend my whole life waiting for "science" to catch up with what I already knew as a little kid...scientists" said life was restricted to Earth, whereas I thought there should be life throughout the universe, and waited decades for the "scientists" to even propose what I already knew. "

What "scientists" are you talking about? You never heard of Arthur C. Clarke? You need to read more, not less,

daveS

History of SETI

While interest in the question of extraterrestrial life is at least as old as historical civilizations, the modern SETI era can be defined as beginning in 1959. In that year, Cornell physicists Giuseppi Cocconi and Philip Morrison published an article in Nature in which they pointed out the potential for using microwave radio to communicate between the stars.
ozmaA young radio astronomer, Frank Drake, had independently reached the same conclusion, and in the spring of 1960 conducted the first microwave radio search for signals from other solar systems. For two months Drake aimed an 85-foot West Virginia antenna in the direction of two nearby Sun-like stars. His single-channel receiver was tuned to the "magic" frequency of the 21 cm (1,420 MHz) line of neutral hydrogen, a spot on the radio dial also favored by Cocconi and Morrison because of its astronomical significance. While he didn't detect any signal of extraterrestrial origin, Drake's Project Ozma spurred the interest of others in the astronomical community, most immediately the Russians.
In the 1960's, the Soviet Union dominated SETI, and it frequently adopted bold strategies. Rather than searching the vicinities of nearby stars, the Soviets used nearly-omnidirectional antennas to observe large chunks of sky, counting on the existence of at least a few very advanced civilizations capable of radiating enormous amounts of transmitter power.
At the beginning of the 1970's, NASA's Ames Research Center in Mountain View, California began to consider the technology required for an effective search. A team of outside experts, under the direction of Bernard Oliver, on leave from the Hewlett-Packard Corporation, produced a comprehensive study for NASA known as Project Cyclops. The Cyclops report provided an analysis of SETI science and technology issues that is the foundation upon which much subsequent work is based.
As the perception grew that SETI had a reasonable prospect for success, the Americans once again began to observe. During the 1970's, many radio astronomers conducted searches, using existing antennas and receivers. Some of the efforts, employing improved technology, have continued to the present time. Foremost among these are the Planetary Society's Project META, the University of California's SERENDIP project, and a long-standing observing program at Ohio State University.
By the late-1970's, SETI programs had been established at NASA's Ames Research Center and at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) in Pasadena, California.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7181 From: dave santos Date: 9/22/2012
Subject: Near Zero Findings //Re: Soft Wing Scaling
Robert,

Regarding your specific doubt whether "a fabric wing [AWES] with a large enough Coefficient of Lift can also achieve very low CL's during retraction without becoming unstable".

Note that soft wings have a natural capacity for Variable Geometry. They pack away to a hundredth or so of their deployed volume. Many methods exist for retracting large soft kites by furling or depowering, and they do vary in merit, but stability is doable. A logical proof- 

       Posit a jumbo jet sized glider of 50 tons with a payload capacity of 100 tons. Its stable in a glide and can carry 100 tons of packed soft wing, which wing in turn, fully deployed, can lift and/or pull about 1000 tons. The jumbo aircraft can perform a stable low Cl retraction by gliding down with a packed mega kite. So this is really an operational engineering problem worth study, rather than an intrinsic scaling barrier identified by scaling and control laws.

Operations of large aerospace and military decellerators and parafoils has already amply shown basic proof-of-concept. Your pessimism about soft wings presumes not just that human ingenuity cannot design a highly optimal practical packing/deployment cycle, but also that only downwinding AWES cycles are workable,. Of course, a giant soft wing can fly stably back and forth crosswind, indefinitely, by wind or pumping, with no need to fold or pack for an upwind return cycle. This is a superior power cycle over "reeling", and can be done many ways.

We are left with the fact that historic kites outscale any rigid-winged aircraft ever built. While rigid airframes are not soon going to grow much larger, the modern fabric kite has only just begun to scale. These are scaling-law predictions. As for control, the ultimate stability basis will come from staking-out megascale kite networks from spread anchors. Near Zero neglected the great potential of these architectural possibilities.

Thanks for resonding to this topic,

dave santos
Kitelab Group

PS Robert, you also wrote- "If you have a bridling scheme/control cycle which can achieve those goals, and have achieved reliable, continuous, autonomous net power production with a fabric wing, I would love to see it."

Perhaps you simply overlooked the last few years of progress in basic AWES practice and theory, especially the most advanced megascale concepts, given WindLift's great focus on fielding small remotely based AWES. A lot of the new work has shown "reliable, continuous, autonomous net power production with a fabric wing", but mostly at "toy" scale-
--------------------------------
KiteLab Group
www.kitelabgroup.com/Testing these methods led KiteLab Group to an Airborne Latticework concept validated in numerous scale-prototype experiments. Dense-arrays mitigated ...
--------------------------------
However, some key elements are already huge, and just getting bigger-
--------------------------------
Mega Kite shakes off hundreds of pounds of sand ...
youtube.comSep 3, 2012 - 40 sec - Uploaded by UtilMovement
Here's MOTHRA1 shaking off hundreds of pounds of sand in ~20mph winds! Note how easily it is brought ...
--------------------------------
Near Zero may have missed the boat on AWES Megascaling by promoting WindLift's view on the topic, rather than understanding those working in that area.



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7182 From: Doug Date: 9/23/2012
Subject: Re: Another Maverick Paper Argues Severe Limits on Global WindPower
More primitive Witch Doctors - not needed - irrelevant.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7183 From: Doug Date: 9/23/2012
Subject: Near Zero Findings //Re: Soft Wing Scaling
Congratulations and good luck!
:)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7184 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/23/2012
Subject: (no subject)

A static AWES scheme comprising a Selsam's Superturbine (tm) where generator is not at ground:a little less advantages but feasible.

 

PierreB

http://flygenkite.com  

  @@attachment@@
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7185 From: Doug Date: 9/23/2012
Subject: Near Zero Findings //Re: Soft Wing Scaling
NearZero Understanding
NearZero Creativity
NearZero Solutions
NearZero Relevance
NearZero Targeting of even a promising direction...
NearZero - period.
:)
To Dave S.: "Go Fly a Kite!"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7186 From: Bob Stuart Date: 9/23/2012
Subject: Re: [1 Attachment]
The efficiency of this setup can be increased greatly by putting U-joints in the turbine hubs, to allow the blades to maintain the correct angle of attack.  
Maybe you can appreciate this obvious point.

Bob Stuart

On 23-Sep-12, at 8:34 AM, Pierre BENHAIEM wrote:

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7187 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/23/2012
Subject: Re:

BobS,

 

Nothing is obvious for me,and I did not think to U-joints which look to be a solution for a long global shaft where each section has a different angle.For short shaft and 3 or 4 rotors,a rigid shaft can perhaps be enough.

 

PierreB 




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7188 From: Bob Stuart Date: 9/23/2012
Subject: Re:
Just look carefully at a picture of a turbine, and see how the angle of attack changes continuously if it is not normal to the wind.  I got sensitized to this when a human-powered boat went faster than the theoretical prop pitch would let it go, due to the prop shaft angle.  Other experimenters found that they could eliminate the support bearing near the prop, and use a somewhat flexible shaft.  The prop forces would actually keep the shaft bent as if there was a bearing at the end to keep the prop square to the flow.

Bob

On 23-Sep-12, at 10:11 AM, Pierre BENHAIEM wrote:


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7189 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 9/23/2012
Subject: Onshore,then offshore,then farshore
Advantadges of high-scale AWE are more pregnant farshore where winds are
more powerful,where sea use is not a big problem,where conventional
turbines can not be implemented, because both lever force on tower,and
deepless of water,that must content with being settled offshore with the
environmental and visual impacts.

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7190 From: dave santos Date: 9/23/2012
Subject: Two Obscure AWE Videos (and the AWE video explosion)
Joe has now counted several hundred AWE videos, and one sees steadily mounting numbers, tens-of-thousands of views, for the most popular. Surely many many new participants are being inspired to join the quest. Its almost too much these days to follow every new entry, even as some prominent early players are sidelined by the dynamic social and competitive business conditions. Its very exciting to imagine what major developments are imminent, what grand new adventures are about to begin. We may soon be overwhelmed by a truly viral emerging AWE movement.

Meanwhile, two lesser known videos-

This first seems like an old demo, covered elsewhere, but this video was recently posted-

Kite Obelisk Project @ Cal-Tech EDU - YouTube

youtube.comJul 11, 2012 - 1 min - Uploaded by vhbeazel
Cal-Tech Aerospace Team used 420 square foot kite to lift a6900 lb obelisk in 20 mile/hr winds!! We use ...


Stephan Wrage has been a bit of an enigma, but this video is actually a bit biographic-

Stephan Wrage : kite propulsion for cargo vessels ...

youtube.comAug 3, 2011 - 2 min - Uploaded by shamengo2
Meet Shamengo pioneer and SKySails co-founder Stephen Wrage, who ... to harness wind power at sea ...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7191 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 9/24/2012
Subject: Is blade profile for like-autogiro mode good for both production and

Like-autogiro mode (Sky windpower,Windmill,some Superturbine,perhaps WheelWind) is seen as a good possibility for AWES.But profiles of blades are quite different for wind turbine and for autogiro.So is it really possible to obtain a good compromise?

PierreB

http://flygenkite.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7192 From: dave santos Date: 9/24/2012
Subject: Re: Is blade profile for like-autogiro mode good for both production
Pierre,

You are right that autogiro blades are very different from conventional wind turbine blades. Since they operate at an inclined flight angle compared to HAWT rotors, they are commonly hinged at the hub so that the AoA (angle of attack) varies with phase. This passive form of "cyclic pitch" is a refinement some inclined wind designs like Doug's omit. 

Autiogiro blades and rotors are built lighter for flight than those of pure wind turbines. Frequent inspection and shorter lifecycles are used. For AWE, we are developing special super-light "floaty" rotors (Skymill, Sky WindPower, UMaryland and UTexas).

The major mismatch in blade/rotor design is in AWES is dual-mode motoring and generating. To both autogyro and motor requires a variable pitch hub for "collective pitch" control. The blades must passively twist for proper helical pitch.

To generate as a wing mounted HAWT, and also motor, tends to require a symmetrical blade foil section, although the designer can favor one mode over the other. The helical pitch of the blades can be set into the structure.

So, to answer your question, there is no ideal compromise, but careful design can minimize the inherent challenges and make good working rotors,

daveS

Note: the flygen turbine concept you showed us needs some sort of vane or pendulum mass on the generator to oppose the torque from the wind rotor.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7193 From: dave santos Date: 9/24/2012
Subject: YaleE360 AWE Article
Airborne Wind Energy: Huge Potential — And Hurdles
Yale Environment 360
PJ Shepard, co-founder of an industry group called the Airborne Wind Energy Consortium, says the progress toward working, power-generating prototypes has ... 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7194 From: Doug Date: 9/24/2012
Subject: superturbine w/gen off ground
Pierre:
There you go!
The possibilities for Superturbine(R), and many other basic ideas, are almost unlimited, and as you point out, the flygen/groundgen paradigm suggests a lot of options somewhere in between.
Yes the flygen/groundgen question seems like a basic question today. In the future it may seem like the question of whether the guy with the lantern ahead of the car could optionally ride a horse.
:)
Doug S.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7195 From: Doug Date: 9/24/2012
Subject: Re: Two Obscure AWE Videos (and the AWE video explosion)
What has increasingly dawned on me is that kite technology itself, is like 2000 years behind the times... OMG!

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7196 From: nav.syed Date: 9/24/2012
Subject: Re: Welcome to Naveed Syed
What my question is concerning the carousel turning generators is efficiency. I'm assuming a larger track would be less efficient because it would take longer to turn the carousel 1 revolution. It is for that reason I wanted to have an axle driven generator. At least you would get a constant power output. Also, with axle driven generators a straight track would be great because you could ride the carts back and forth. It would be ideal to lay a couple straight tracks down in different directions and put the carts on the track that is best suited for the wind direction. What I would really like to do is try to find a way to install a small generator to a kite buggy. From there I could plug in some figures to give theoretical power output from the kite size and swept area and wind speed. If any test like this has been done please share. It sounds like a good project I could try to get funding for on kickstarter if it hasn't been done.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7197 From: Bob Stuart Date: 9/24/2012
Subject: Re: Welcome to Naveed Syed
There should be suitable hardware in electric bike kits or golf carts.  Even if they are not switched for regenerative braking, they are easy to set one way or the other.

Bob Stuart

On 24-Sep-12, at 5:44 PM, nav.syed wrote:


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7198 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/24/2012
Subject: Re: Welcome to Naveed Syed
1. Dave Culp noted to me that some kite buggy was wheel-driving an electric generator.  Ask him. 
2. Bicycles: Wheel-driven electric generators ... on the market. 
3. Harry Valentine  recalls train-axle driven generators. 
4. Regenerative braking in some electric cars ... 
5. Non-derailing carts kite-driven with wheeled axles driving electric generator has been described several times. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7199 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/24/2012
Subject: Re: YaleE360 AWE Article
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7200 From: harry valentine Date: 9/24/2012
Subject: Re: YaleE360 AWE Article
The article suggests that government funding is needed to develop airborne wind energy. However, private venture capitalists such as Google actually invested in airborne wind energy. An absence of government funding would literally shake out the market, leaving the most innovative people to develop their technology. Easy access to government funding attracts lots of wannabees.

One of the problems re market acceptance of airborne wind energy, has been the generous government handouts given to developers of tower-based wind turbines. Without access to such government funding, it is doubtful if tower-based wind power would have undergone the growth rate that it did.

In my view, a repeal of regulations such as the prohibition on neighbours connecting private power lines across private property lines would go a long way to developing a market for kite-driven, ground-level-generators to generate power in rural areas. 


Harry


To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: joefaust333@gmail.com
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 01:48:11 +0000
Subject: [AWES] Re: YaleE360 AWE Article

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7201 From: Bob Stuart Date: 9/24/2012
Subject: Re: YaleE360 AWE Article
Well, the oil industry is doing pretty well with huge continuing subsidies.  Maybe we should ask for a level playing field, at least.

Bob Stuart

On 24-Sep-12, at 8:38 PM, harry valentine wrote:


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7202 From: harry valentine Date: 9/24/2012
Subject: Re: YaleE360 AWE Article
I certainly agree that a level playing field would have merit .  .  .  . an end to subsidies to the oil industry would go a long way in terms of opening doors of opportunity to other energy technologies.


Harry


To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: bobstuart@sasktel.net
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 20:41:26 -0600
Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: YaleE360 AWE Article

 
Well, the oil industry is doing pretty well with huge continuing subsidies.  Maybe we should ask for a level playing field, at least.

Bob Stuart

On 24-Sep-12, at 8:38 PM, harry valentine wrote:



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7203 From: dave santos Date: 9/24/2012
Subject: National Geographic Coverage
Makani makes Nat Geo...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7204 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/25/2012
Subject: Re: National Geographic Coverage


Not only,KiteGen,Selsam's (with a comment about low efficiency of Magenn),and others.

 

PierreB



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7205 From: Anders Ansar Date: 9/25/2012
Subject: Re: Royal Institute of Technology of Sweden ///Fw: Students interest

Hi

I would be glad to hear how the projects proceed. I will comment if I think it can be of value.
 I am cc:ing to professor Joachim Grenestedt, Swede, who is in the "wind business" in the US.

Cheers

Anders

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7206 From: Doug Date: 9/25/2012
Subject: Re: Is blade profile for like-autogiro mode good for both production
Hey Dave S.
I know my patents are long and take a while to read, but my designs do not omit such refinements. Sure, deny everything I've come up with over 4 decades, then try to claim that you thought it all up in the first place...
Sounds about right.
You don't suppose that my patents tell us how to do AWE, do you?
I think you should stick with your predicted kite-puller oscillating quantum waves. Keep working on that new physics. I think you're almost there...
Doug S.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7207 From: Doug Date: 9/25/2012
Subject: Re: YaleE360 AWE Article
How much government funding would it take to build a model airplane?
Seems like government funding can make it profitable to pretend that easy things are hard.
Just like unemployment makes it easy for people to say "Yeah I could sort of use a little time off anyway..."
"fill out this form for each employer you have contacted".
Oh good another check as long as I don't find a job...
or
another check as long as AWE remains impossible, inadvisable, impractical, etc.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7208 From: dave santos Date: 9/25/2012
Subject: Re: National Geographic Coverage
Yes, there was more coverage than i saw when the article was first posted, and it does add some balance to the massive Makani-only reportage of recent years. It was especially welcome to see finally see coverage of engineering failure (Magenn), which signals the end of false dominance by unchecked AWEC member hype.

If only Doug, the former rock star, had known to choose a small stock aerostat for his demo, so it would fly longer at a higher angle. I especially fret that KiteGen's awkward stem system will prove inferior to the simpler old German mast method SkySails adopted. 

At least its clear from this sort of coverage that the AWES engineering race is open...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7209 From: dave santos Date: 9/25/2012
Subject: SuperTurbines with hinged blades //Re: [AWES] Re: Is blade profile
Doug,

Many of your SuperTurbines do in fact omit hinged blades, and those are the specific designs referred to by me. If you state elsewhere that hinged blades are desirable for optimal cyclic harvest by an autogyro rotor, thats good too,

daveS


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7210 From: dave santos Date: 9/25/2012
Subject: Biomimetics- Best Primer Yet on (Bird) Flight
A deep understanding of flight principles makes for better AWES designs.

This a superb introduction to a modern understanding of flight principles. It centers on bird-flight, which informs aeronautics with fresh biomimetic inspiration. One sees most every aero-engineering trick is already known in nature-




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7211 From: dave santos Date: 9/25/2012
Subject: Gears and Airlines ///Fw: Google Alerts - airborne-wind-energy
Two omens that span the AWES complexity spectrum- 

1) American gear manufactuers are eyeing AWES engineering already (and they like gears). Most AWE involves winching and a huge mechanical step-up from low velocity wind to high velocity electrical generation.

2) KLM (Royal Dutch Airlines) has "voted" for AWE by investing in Ampyx. Anyone who still doubts AWE is an aviation field, read on...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7212 From: harry valentine Date: 9/25/2012
Subject: Re: SuperTurbines with hinged blades //Re: [AWES] Re: Is blade prof
Properly linked hinged blades (2-blade system) can reduce the cross-sectional swept area as wind speed increases .  .  . and keep the wind turbine operating in faster winds, when competitors' wind turbines have to be locked down.


Harry

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: santos137@yahoo.com
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 10:38:04 -0700
Subject: SuperTurbines with hinged blades //Re: [AWES] Re: Is blade profile for like-autogiro mode good for both production and lift?

 

Doug,

Many of your SuperTurbines do in fact omit hinged blades, and those are the specific designs referred to by me. If you state elsewhere that hinged blades are desirable for optimal cyclic harvest by an autogyro rotor, thats good too,

daveS



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7213 From: Bob Stuart Date: 9/25/2012
Subject: Re: Soft wing efficiency
I know that for AWE, L/D is more an input than a key to maximizing
economic performance, but I am curious about the performance
possibilities our experts forsee in fabric wing design. So far, I
found a reference to a paraglider getting 6.5:1

TIA,
Bob Stuart
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7214 From: dave santos Date: 9/25/2012
Subject: Re: Soft wing efficiency
Bob, 

Take out the (human) mass payload, and L/D goes way up... to 10 or so...

daveS
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7215 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/25/2012
Subject: Re: Gears and Airlines ///Fw: Google Alerts - airborne-wind-energy
To anchor: 

KLM, Rabobank, Schiphol and Delft University of Technology invest in
Ampyx Power, a leading company in the emerging Airborne Wind Energyindustry, has secured ...