Yeah well of course we all start as newbies in anything new we do, and usually there are typical beginner pitfalls on the one hand, and on the other hand, the cutting edge, at the forefront of the technology.

Coming up with all the typical beginner mis-steps over and over while declaring you're at the cutting edge, and yet calling the people who are trying to give you a heads-up nasty names is just not good practice. But I give a lot of leeway here to the nutcases since it is such a whacky new art.

Obviously thinking 100% in the box is not going to get wind turbines airborne. Nope, we have to tilt the rotor for that. And the nutcases will be skipping through the fields with their kites and butterfly nets saying "wheeee!" I just bought a few spiderman kites by the way.

"Wind energy draws nutcases, and airborne wind energy draws nutcases absolutely."

You can quote me on that.
:)

All people studying AWE are both newbies and experts in this field.Some other people (like me) are also newbies in kites,in wind energy,in aviation, or know nothing (like me) in simulation,maths,...This forum can help some newbies (like me) to improve their knowledge in these fields,or at least to provide results for some problems.

 

PierreB 

I'm not convinced particles exist at all. When waves interact, we call it a particle. I think it's waves the whole time. Particles-schmarticles. You can quote me on that. "Guess what baby, I just discovered the LOVE particle. And that particle is YOU. OOoooh Yeah." Try that one next time you're trying to seduce one of the 10 female physicists in the world. (I could modify that last line but I think I'll leave it alone...)

The particle concept is a holdover from physics starting out as the study of ballistics to guide cannon fire. Theoreticians would have been ignored if they said there was no such thing as a bullet. Since then, everything has been some form of bullet. But is anything really a bullet? Ouch - what's that a rock in my shoe?

"Congratulations and good luck!" :)

http://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Thorium-A-Cheap-Clean-And-Safe-Alternative-To-Uranium.html

Hurry up and get your system flying before progress leapfrogs us!

On Mon, 2012-09-17 at 12:26 -0700, dave santos wrote:
Dave S,

Quoting things out of context can make them seem to mean all sorts of
the things the author did not intend. The article author implied that
the wind industry is big enough to suppress bad news about turbine
noise. I am saying that the fossil fuel industry is far bigger so if
suppression of bad news is going on, it is far more likely to be in
favour of the FF industry.

If you want a really big story that should be getting more attention try
the M-bomb. There is an Anthony Marr video available, but it so slow
paced I will not post a link. A more concise summary is here
http://hope-geo.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/geo-007-co2-deadly-fuse-of-m-bomb.html

This one only scratches the surface.
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/eo20111116mr.html

Robert.

PierreB, Doug,

Phonons are merely bulk excitations (above Planck length) in fields of ~consistent physical media (mechanical waves or wave packets) considered as abstract discrete objects, called quasi-particles, useful for certain kinds of analytic study. This is little different than the working engineer's FEA (Finite Element Analysis), or Calculus, where fields are arbitrarily quantized into convenient space-time units for tractable computation. The difference is that with Phonons the quantization units derive from the wave's intrinsic parameters (characteristic dimensions and time-frame).

So Doug is half right; we are not just talking about literal particles, like a sand grain (which can in fact be "seen" as a wave, if needed). We are just counting peaks or packets of indistinct motions with fussy boundaries in the bulk field. If one names a wave packet "Fred", they have quantized it as a unitary abstract object, and can then refer to Fred easily, and even send out a perfect version (in bit-streams of zeros and ones) of the quantization "Fred" to your computer, for you to ponder with.

One can thus build large complex (high-dimensional) models made of such quantized objects and reason (compute) with them far more easily that computing the full analog solution to the same problem.

A Kite (including arches) is a bulk phonon structure. One can say interesting things; like the high-pressure zone under the kite is a "positive" phonon, and the low-pressure over the wing is its "negative" anti-phonon. Remove the membrane, and the pair of phonons cancel (annihilate). Note the complimentary phonon field of the same "charge" (repulsion) in the kite anchoring medium. As kite arch compresses the air below itself, the ground between is anchors takes on a net compression equal to that above (again with like charges opposed). The lower-pressure created above the arch is even mirrored by a lower-pressure zone under the compression-zone below ground. Its not that you don't find these same force structures from the pure wave view, its just that one must somehow at least minimally quantify them to think about them powerfully under all the Laws of QFT.

Note: The "Wind-Belt" (TM) is a repatenting of an old Payne concept, now in the public domain. Its scary if some MIT kid can buy a patent and block our highly developed wingmills, which are not simple belts, but small arch kite wings, with many key details different.

daveS

1. First name spelling correction to Jitendra         ending with an "a"

Tough decisions are underway concerning KiteGen and Alcoa smelter!

I didn't see anything about Alcoa, but looking at the KiteGen setup, I noticed the really poor leverage and wasted motion as the kite re-positions itself at the end of each stroke.  Would it not be much better, once the kite is launched, to let the cantilevered arm rotate in full circles, and pulse the amount of pull from the kite?

I'd love to be able to see the work done on testing kites by flying them in circles... http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=16944403 

It is most likely a simple device composed of a long arm that rotates
with a kite on the end. When I first started my wind energy adventures I
built one to test model turbines. It proved the point I needed to prove
at the time.

Robert.

My e-mail inbox has become a magnet for wind energy inventors. A guy named Naveed Sayed has been asking me what I think of his airborne wind energy ideas. He recently sent me drawings/renderings. I asked Naveed if he was a member of our group. He had never heard of our group. I just gave Naveed the link to our group and told him to go ahead and join, and get ahold of Joe Faust and he will probably publish the renderings if desired. (I avoided even addressing his idea per se - I'm learning!)

Soon the members of this group will start saying "Hey is it Groundhog Day? Another carousel with kites?" Someone might say "give the concept a number", but it has not been disproven. Anyway, get ready for another new member, I think. Nice, neat drawings. Carousels with kites are popular this year. At least it's not another yo-yo kite-puller or Santosian phonon-flapper.
:)
Doug Selsam
http://www.selsam.com

What is QFT?  Can you explain without invoking phonons?

DaveL,

Please forgive my awkward presentation of this stuff. To summarize "slow-flight", a special branch of aerodynamics, and relate it to Kite QFT- 

NASA advanced this field in the sixties with specific deliverables, like special slow-flight airfoils. Formal biomimetic studies of insects, bats, and birds also became popular. A zoo of varied slow-flight modes and mechanisms emerged. Two common conditions of optimal slow flight are low-wingloadings and low Re wing design. Low-wingloadings are more stable and forgiving flyers (disregard turbulence here). Good slow-flying low Re wings can in fact look very different than conventional foils, like crazy theme kites or the cartoon paddle-wings of gnats. 

Thus a powered ultralight of rather crude geometry can be comparable in fuel consumption per passenger-mile to the most advanced airliner. Why? Because it goes simply flies slower, with low-wing loading avoiding high-Re phonon dispersion. The airliner design is much more exacting, and its unit-mass, capital, and lifecycle costs reflect this. Seeing smooth air as displaying Bose-Einstein Statistics compared to chopped air is another way to pose this issue. The whole superfluid or superconductor effect is just another way of saying "super-high efficiency". A model airplane with an insanely high L/D
What Kite QFT gives us is a simplified way of interpreting and predicting such performance. Low wing-loading is thus seen as comparable to low temperature (low phonon/photon/etc. dispersion) superfluidity and superconductance (A bit of relativity here too, as f=ma has e=mc2 equivalence.). Of course a wing can be so small that viscosity begins to dominate, and the macroscopic quasi-superfluidic flight potential degrades (at scale a bit smaller than a hummingbird or large butterfly). At the other extreme, a giant wing of crude geometry can still enjoy lowered Re by a slower scale velocity (big wing in same wind) and low wing loading. QFT can create really simple models for such results.

Field Quantization itself is very old. Descartes formalized it with his Grids, but the far older chess-board, or tic-tac-toe, is a Quantum Field. An unmarked billiards table surface is not. The EE Analog v. Digital paradigm contest of the 20th Century is the same issue, with useful roles for each approach. We go back and forth, and waves still rock,

daveS

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the AirborneWindEnergy
group.

File : /Tethered aviation
Uploaded by : joe_f_90032 <joefaust333@gmail.com Description : Tethered airfoils, kite energy

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AirborneWindEnergy/files/Tethered%20aviation

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
Regards,

joe_f_90032 <joefaust333@gmail.com

Nature didn't invent the wheel because of the need to have a circulation system. No way to connect blood vessels to a rotating part. So we have wings and legs etc. that rotate less than 360 degrees. Not that hard to figure out.

The fact that birds have wings instead of propellers like turbines is a typical newbie argument for a #57, which is a 100% solidity turbine that flaps. We had one come in a few weeks ago and I was afraid the guy would completely lose it when he got our honest feedback. Like I said, we had already heard the idea a thousand times, and have no interest in discussing the mechanics one more time. It's the inventors poor tortured mind we worry about now.

Glancing at this document by Wayne German, I might point out that he accurately suggests in item 2 the reciprocating action of a pump might best match a reciprocating action of a kite.

Of course with million reciprocating wind-powered water pumps, no AWE player tries that, since such an obvious application and ready market would require having something that actually works.

And the common stated desire to apply AWE to third-world needs would be well-applied to one of the most pressing challenges worldwide: access to safe drinking water.

But heck, that would mean you'd have to actually develop the system, with no real excuses other than you just can't think your way into that box.

So everyone ignores applying their reciprocating kite idea to the reciprocating application that has already been the most common type of existing wind energy application in the world, for 150 years.

Easier to talk of constructing railroads up mountainsides, mile-wide merry-go-rounds, microwaving power down from floating cities, etc. than to just develop the simple applications staring us in the face every day.
Have fun!
:)
Doug Selsam
http://www.selsam.com

May be you did not understand the mechanism

<http://kitegen.com/i-webinar-di-kitegen/principio-di-funzionamento/ <http://fuoripista.webs.com/dalletorrieolicheagliaquiloni.pdf

Neat, ... about the hummingbird crossing:

Hmmm, not what I was hoping for at all then.
That would be a very different dynamic to turning across the wind around a radius.

Stem is a reel-in/out (= yo-yo) system;so the arm is not a lever arm but a support for kite.

 

PierreB

Quite possible.  The video seems unrelated to the text, and the diagrams are unclear.  Does the tether get reeled in and out?

Dear Doug,
Why you don't want to send any feedback. i had a real intention to collaborate with you but my all e-mails are ignored by you ..why ..!

My friend Brent lives off-grid, with his home powered by wind and solar. He sometimes jokes about opening an aluminum smelting plant when his batteries get full and the dump load is triggered. (Smelting aluminum uses lots of electricity.)

So maybe Kitegen is making so much power that the grid itself is overwhelmed and they have paired up with an aluminum smelter so they have someone who can actually USE the incredible amount of power they're producing. Or, as with my friend Brent, maybe its just a joke. Airborne wind energy humor.

Is KiteGen ready to do two big things: take over large smelter company and produce kite energy or "kitricity" to supply the needs of the smelter?

Naveed Syed for two years has been advancing on his concepts. He shares some disclosure: 

Thank you and congratulations Joe,

This way seems to be the solution for balancing the system  (the cable between the respective two floating stations takes forces from both two wheels) without losses in global swept area it would be made with a double counter-rotating rotors with needed ring to fix both suspentes and rotors.

PierreB

http://wheelwind.com

For Dave Santos and group

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Classifieds:_Inventor_Seeks_Best_Method_to_Harness_Short_Stroke_Linear_Power

Dan'l

OK so "it works". That's good, right? A positiove result is a positive step and we are on our way to developing the first useful AWE product. You keep promoting reciprocating cycles and flapping kites. Obviously it would be easier to apply this reciprocating motion to a reciprocating application, getting rid of the middlemen of not only the propeller, but even the gearbox, generator, and maybe even the computer controls.

So there's your perfect application. But here's the problem with it: Its too simple, too direct of an engineering challenge. It has no excuses, and in this excuse-driven world, what "innovators" are looking for is an endless chain of excuses. Something that demands that they simply perform and make what they said actually happen are just a nuisance. Better to ignore immediate and obvious applications of our theory and instead try to act like our peripheral reading of advanced physics is somehow the new excuse-laden focus-point of our industry.

There are no built-in excuses that "if only we had the funding" or "if only we had 10 grad students to write software" or "if only we could get approval from agency X".

You can't maintain that a perfect solution is sitting unutilized because the railroad companies won't believe you and create a slanted railroad up a hill in a windy area just for you to experiment with if you could get another few million dollars.

In this case the "railway" has already been drilled, the whole system of collecting the energy and providing a use for it has already been done and a reciprocating mechanism sits there often with a tower already in place, for you to show the world how effective your reciprocating phonon-powered kite can be. I don't know how you could wait one second with an opportunity to show the world that you indeed can make things happen and know what you're talking about.

Man, with an opportunity like that, you really have it made. I can't wait to see it. I know a lot of people around here would buy one once you've got it developed.

Congratulations and good luck!

:)
Doug Selsam
http://www.selsam.com

KiteGen webinars are published also in english

http://www.kitegen.com/en/2012/07/24/interactive-presentations-functioning/

The famous Valley-of-Death for technology developers has many traps. Perhaps the most notorious is productization. Its not enough to invent a "better-mousetrap", one must sell it. Several small AWES designs now clearly work, but none has yet made the jump to high-volume profitability. What exactly is missing?

One must design for manufacture, for a prototype is not a product. A supply-chain and production-line must be set up, and these are up-front costs. Promotion is generally required, since pure viral hit-products are rare. An inventory and distribution system is needed. Merchant services must be in place, with orders processed and product shipped. Customer service must be prompt and helpful. Do all this without gaps, and that's a real product. The most talented AWES R&D engineers are generally too focused on the technical to properly do the commercial side. Maybe they just need the right kind of help.
;
To productize a small AWES, find a related established product line, like toys, sports, or novelties. Such a company will already have all the commercial channels in place for revenue to flow. They may even be so eager for a new hot product that they willingly put up the cash needed. The developer gets a percentage of sales, under a licencing agreement. Expect a lot of early AWES commercialization to follow this strategy. 

Announcements of such early partnerships are pending. The first hit AWES product will be a major milestone, and may signal a bootstrapping phase, where the industry grows on its own revenue.

Hello All,

The concepts presented were in hopes for some real R&D by those companies that have the money. I have not seen kitegen produce any sort of carousel at this point. If anyone knows of any please let me know.

As far as the track concept is concerned, The best in my opinion would be a magnetic one. A magnetic cart with wheels that sits on a track that repels it. This repulsive force should be placed both above and below so that the kite will not pull the cart upward and only forward.

The water concept can be used as well on the magnetic track with the turbine below the track in the water.

Since kitegen had controlled kites, I developed the track idea to see if people could operate the kites (such as in kite buggying) and drive around the tracks. If there is significant electricity production than this is something that can be done in the developing world with cheap labor producing their own electricity.

I'm not an engineer. This is just an idea and I don't think it is a very complex one. Just hoping in my time we will see a cheap, clean, electricity production that can be done by all.

-Naveed

This announcement by Governor Cuomo about the New York Power Authority's
RFP due November 6, 2012 may be too soon for any AWES concept, but you
be the judge.

STATE OF NEW YORK EXECUTIVE CHAMBER
ANDREW M, CUOMO I GOVERNOR
For Immediate Release: September 17, 2012
GOVERNOR CUOMO ANNOUNCES LAUNCH OF INITIATIVE TO BRING
NEW ENERGY EFFICIENT TECHNOLOGIES INTO THE MARKETPLACE
N.Y. Power Authority Issues Request for Proposals for Advancing Use of
Latest
Energy Efficiency Technologies
Governor Andrew M. Cuomo today announced the launch of a $30 million
initiative to
accelerate the market utilization of emerging, cutting-edge
energy-efficiency
technologies.
The Energy Efficiency Market Acceleration Program (EE-MAP) is being
implemented
by the New York Power Authority (NYPA). The program will fund research,
market
development activities and demonstration projects to help leverage
investments and
promote business development opportunities for emerging energy
efficiency
technologies. In July 2012, the NYPA Board of Trustees authorized $30
million for the
EE-MAP initiative.
"This public-private partnership will help bring innovative green
technologies into the
marketplace, helping spur economic investment in the clean energy sector
and protect our
environment, while maintaining New York's position as a leader in
sustainability,"
Governor Cuomo said. "By supporting clean energy research and
production, the state is
helping create green jobs in communities across New York, while ensuring
that our
environment is protected for generations to come."
EE-MAP focuses on accelerating the market development of energy
efficiency
technologies by:
• Helping to accelerate their deployment;
• Attracting technology companies to New York State;
• Creating and facilitating market channels for energy efficiency
technology
companies;
• Assisting in the forming of strategic alliances and business
development
opportunities for technology companies; and
• Training engineers, contractors and maintenance service providers
in designing
and installing energy efficiency products.
In addition, EE-MAP assists with developing energy efficiency master
planning
programs and efforts to create new energy efficiency markets in
coordination with state
agencies, authorities and electric utilities to improve industry access
to investments made
at public facilities.
To implement the initiative, NYPA today issued a Request for Proposals
(RFP). Once
selected, the RFP awardee will identify commercial, but-not-yet-widely
deployed clean
energy products with significant promise for gaining market share and
providing
economic development benefits for New York. Each product will be
evaluated according
to a market readiness and risk profile. The RFP is available here:
https://vvww.nypa.gov/Procurement/Default.aspx
Through EE-MAP, the RFP awardee will develop market development plans,
including
strategic alliances, business development opportunities and training
programs. This will
provide a blueprint to enable engineers to design, install and maintain
the new energyefficiency
products, and provide technical support and performance evaluation.
To support the initiative, NYPA has teamed with the New York State
Energy Research
and Development Authority (NYSERDA) and the Electric Power Research
Institute
(EPRI), a nonprofit collaborative research organization, to catalog
state-of-the-art energy
efficiency products and services, identify commercial trends and screen
and track
emerging technologies.
Gil C. Quiniones, NYPA president and chief executive officer, said, "The
aim of this
program is to accelerate the deployment of new energy-saving
technologies, with a focus
on those that also offer economic development benefits for New York
State. Governor
Cuomo has tasked the Power Authority and other state agencies with
ensuring that New
York is in the vanguard of integrating the latest energy-efficiency
technologies. That's
what we're doing with the issuance of a Request for Proposals for
partnering with
organizations engaged with these technologies and who are well-versed in
designing
programs for expanding their utilization."
Francis J. Murray, Jr., president and chief executive officer of the New
York State
Energy Research and Development Authority, said, "Energy efficiency is a
critical
component in New York's energy policy as it lowers utility bills while
contributing to
electricity service reliability, economic development and reduced
greenhouse gas
emissions. The Power Authority's Energy Efficiency Market Acceleration
Program under
Governor Cuomo complements NYSERDA's efforts in this area to encourage
the use of
new energy-saving technologies with a goal of achieving these benefits
for all New
Yorkers."
Arshad Mansoor, senior vice president for research and development at
EPRI, said, "This
Energy Efficiency Market Acceleration program will be a catalyst to
jump-start wider
deployment of energy efficiency systems. It enhances New York State's
leadership in
applying innovative demand-side management strategies, and will serve as
a model for
other states."
The New York Power Authority has long been a leader in the energy
efficiency industry.
Since the late 1980s, NYPA's energy services programs have achieved over
$144 million
in annual customer savings at about 3,900 public facilities, including
schools, hospitals
and municipal buildings, for a reduction of annual greenhouse gas
emissions of more than
845,000 tons. The improvements have lowered peak electricity demand by
approximately
225 megawatts, or the equivalent of the output of a medium-sized power
plant.
Through its energy services programs, NYPA has committed to finance an
additional
$450 million in cost-effective energy efficiency projects over the next
four years, in
support of a goal established by Governor Cuomo for the reduction of
energy
consumption in state buildings by 20 percent. In addition, NYPA intends
to finance
another $350 million over the next four years to provide energy
efficiency financing and
technical services to county and local governments and schools.
Ashok Gupta, Director of Programs and a Senior Energy Economist at the
Natural
Resources Defense Council, said, "Expanded energy efficiency goes a long
way to
reducing carbon emissions responsible for global warming, with buildings
accounting for
one-third of all energy-related greenhouse gas emissions. Governor Cuomo
and his
administration have shown great leadership with their plans for
deploying the latest
energy efficiency technologies and increasing investment in solutions
that save energy
and improve the environment."
###


The link to the NYPA RFP is http://www.nypa.gov/Procurement/Default.aspx

DaveB

Eight miles high
And when you touch down
You'll find that it's
Stranger than known

                 The Byrds


High altitude kites (
Util, LLC, has approved a modest amount of funds to reopen high-altitude kite research. The goal is to develop up-to-date technical skills to conduct routine high-altitude kite operations. As a side effect, the century-old kite altitude record may fall.

Dave Gomberg and Ron Welty have been consulted, and a concept design for a high-flight-angle train of semi-custom delta kites has emerged. Richard Synergy, holder of the single-kite altitude record, wrote a book on high altitude kite flight, which is being closely studied. Ed Sapir is managing the Util managerial side of the project. KiteLab Group will coordinate the technical side.

This is a serious engineering exercise, with every design aspect validated by calculation or testing. The tether will be staged, tapering upward. The kites will also be graduated in size, smaller at the top. A pair of GPS watches will confirm the altitude attained. A cell-phone or equivalent device may provide a live link to the upper stages. The flying site is not confirmed, but Northern Mexico, NASA's Wallops Flight Facility, and a remote Pacific NW coastal site are in play. The site must have very low air traffic, and NOTAM will be filed. 

Other Util experiments in early planning cover other aspects of extreme kite performance, with records for endurance, speed, and size records likely to fall. AKA rules will determine any records. TeamUp is a working name for the circle of developers involved. Besides the large knowledge harvest intended, its hoped there will be a commercial PR bonanza, to help popularize AWE.

All are welcome to help. Thanks for any design, build, and fly support.

dave santos
KiteLab Group