Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                           AWES7066to7115 Page 39 of 440.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7066 From: dbmurr@ymail.com Date: 9/14/2012
Subject: Re: WG: core need: Common simulation tools

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7067 From: dave santos Date: 9/14/2012
Subject: Re: WG: core need: Common simulation tools

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7068 From: dave santos Date: 9/14/2012
Subject: Huzzah!- Plenty of Wind for AWE without Excessive Impacts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7069 From: dave santos Date: 9/14/2012
Subject: Sneak-Peek at More Util Media (Mothra1)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7070 From: roderickjosephread Date: 9/14/2012
Subject: Re: approximation of kite test field layout

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7071 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/14/2012
Subject: Re: WG: core need: Common simulation tools

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7072 From: dave santos Date: 9/14/2012
Subject: Re: approximation of kite test field layout

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7073 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/14/2012
Subject: SkySails stepping toward test farm

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7074 From: dave santos Date: 9/14/2012
Subject: Re: SkySails stepping toward test farm

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7075 From: carlgu Date: 9/14/2012
Subject: Re: SkySails stepping toward test farm

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7076 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/15/2012
Subject: Re: Huzzah!- Plenty of Wind for AWE without Excessive Impacts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7077 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/15/2012
Subject: Re: "MegaScale AWES Concepts" review

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7078 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/15/2012
Subject: Re: "MegaScale AWES Concepts" review

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7079 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/15/2012
Subject: Ancient China ?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7080 From: dave santos Date: 9/15/2012
Subject: Re: Ancient China ?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7081 From: John Oyebanji Date: 9/15/2012
Subject: Fw: Local Renewables 2012 - Final invitation and registration Freibu

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7082 From: Theo Schmidt Date: 9/16/2012
Subject: Re: Flying a hang-glider like a kite - manned kites?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7083 From: Theo Schmidt Date: 9/16/2012
Subject: Re: Drag versus lift devices

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7084 From: Doug Date: 9/16/2012
Subject: Re: Flying a hang-glider like a kite - manned kites?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7085 From: Doug Date: 9/16/2012
Subject: Re: Drag versus lift devices

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7086 From: dave santos Date: 9/16/2012
Subject: Re: Drag versus lift devices

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7087 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/16/2012
Subject: AWES resource--the wind--gets great attention

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7088 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/16/2012
Subject: AWES resource--the wind--is enough: Marvel, Kravitz, and Caldeira

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7089 From: benhaiemp Date: 9/16/2012
Subject: International Kite Festival Dieppe 2012

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7090 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 9/16/2012
Subject: Re: International Kite Festival Dieppe 2012

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7091 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 9/16/2012
Subject: Re: International Kite Festival Dieppe 2012

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7092 From: dave santos Date: 9/16/2012
Subject: Re: International Kite Festival Dieppe 2012

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7093 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/16/2012
Subject: Re: International Kite Festival Dieppe 2012

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7094 From: Dan Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Aerogel

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7095 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Re: Aerogel

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7096 From: harry valentine Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Are Wind Farms harming people

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7097 From: Doug Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Re: Drag versus lift devices - no knowledge => just be nice to 'em..

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7098 From: dougselsam Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Sample Message List from Real Wind Energy Group

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7099 From: Robert Copcutt Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Re: Are Wind Farms harming people

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7100 From: dave santos Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Newbies ///Re: [AWES] Re: Drag versus lift devices - no knowledge =

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7101 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Re: Drag versus lift devices - no knowledge => just be nice to 'em..

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7102 From: dave santos Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Newbies Rock //Re: [AWES] Sample Message List from Real Wind Energy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7103 From: Robert Copcutt Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Re: Drag versus lift devices - no knowledge => just be nice to 'em..

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7104 From: dave santos Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Re: Are Wind Farms harming people

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7105 From: dave santos Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Introduction to the Kelvon (WARNING- Contains Advanced Physics)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7106 From: Bob Stuart Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Re: Introduction to the Kelvon (WARNING- Contains Advanced Physics)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7107 From: roderickjosephread Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Re: Drag versus lift devices - no knowledge => just be nice to 'em..

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7108 From: roderickjosephread Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Re: Drag versus lift devices - no knowledge => just be nice to 'em..

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7109 From: Darin Selby Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Re: Introduction to the Kelvon (WARNING- Contains Advanced Physics)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7110 From: dave santos Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Re: Introduction to the Kelvon (WARNING- Contains Advanced Physics)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7111 From: Bob Stuart Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Re: Introduction to the Kelvon (WARNING- Contains Advanced Physics)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7112 From: dave santos Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Re: Introduction to the Kelvon (WARNING- Contains Advanced Physics)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7113 From: Doug Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Re: Drag versus lift devices - no knowledge => just be nice to 'em..

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7114 From: Doug Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Newbies Rock //Re: [AWES] Sample Message List from Real Wind Energy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7115 From: Bob Stuart Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Re: Introduction to the Kelvon (WARNING- Contains Advanced Physics)




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7066 From: dbmurr@ymail.com Date: 9/14/2012
Subject: Re: WG: core need: Common simulation tools
sorry about the last link. this one should work.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7067 From: dave santos Date: 9/14/2012
Subject: Re: WG: core need: Common simulation tools
Wayne is often just too many decades ahead of our time. DaveL is definitely the man to point out the incredible complexity required to create Wayne's World (All-Purpose AWES Simulator). Doug is correct that the Real World is the master computing environment, preforming immense calculations on our prototypes. Yes it would be nice to be able to only crash in a validated simulation environment, but crudely crashing our giant prototypes to find unpredictable failure-modes may still be the only way at present.

It is wonderful to see so many new simulation tools beginning to fill our toolbox. The conference introduced the latest tools, ranging from better electro-mechanical CAD, with more physics, to atmospheric models designed to answer deep mysteries. But such resources will not be integrated for a long time to come.

Here are two more simulation options- Heuristic reasoning  (reasoning from solid principles or domain-expert "rules-of-thumb") allows us to incorporate most desirable features and catch most failure-modes. Such models can be so highly abstract or weird, many overlook them as proper simulation.

The remaining simulation option is the grandest, but does not even seem to have a name. "Muscle memory" suggests the idea, where talent and long practice trains one's biological kinematics into mastery. The gifted Athlete envisions the wonderful feat they are about to do, which is a simulation, or computes it creatively on-the-fly. Similarly any lifetime of high-function domain experience allows the resulting Master to correctly envision even complex technical outcomes. These are the grandest simulations we have, given the primitive state of machine-simulation and key missing semantic heuristics.

Perhaps the fast way to perfect AWE, therefore, is to deliberately raise kids to fly technical kites constantly, and give them every sort of related experience (mechanics, electronics, rigging, etc.). A gaggle of little AWES Mozarts would soon enough have AWES schemes popping into their heads far beyond anything we and our pathetic computing machines can ever do. In any case, mental simulation by a club of kite-masters will be a decisive "Common Simulation Tool".
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7068 From: dave santos Date: 9/14/2012
Subject: Huzzah!- Plenty of Wind for AWE without Excessive Impacts

A good portal link intro to both new geophysical papers presented at AWEC2012-

Physics Buzz: Studies Show Wind Power's Massive Potential
By Buzz Skyline
Jacobson and Archer published their research online Sept. 10 in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. Both teams will present their work at the Airborne Wind Energy Conference on Sept. 11 and 12 in Hampton, Va.
Physics Buzz
 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7069 From: dave santos Date: 9/14/2012
Subject: Sneak-Peek at More Util Media (Mothra1)

Thanks to Chase and Ed for this rough cut of Mothra1 at WSKIF, flying over the fateful spot where Eideken died falling from Osborne's Monster Parafoil. This flight occurred during the Kiter's Memorial Fly (gathered behind camera). All Ghost Kiters smiled that day.

If anyone wonders why so few folks are seen, it was only at the very end of the week-long event that we flew. Rain and high-wind had come thru, and most of the kites and public had vanished...
Check out the latest prescient kite song on the soundtrack.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7070 From: roderickjosephread Date: 9/14/2012
Subject: Re: approximation of kite test field layout
Thanks Doug, I blush.
It's true that the idea we express in wind energy are complementary.
Maybe one day after I prove more kit you can try explain the use of patents to me.




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7071 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/14/2012
Subject: Re: WG: core need: Common simulation tools
From WayneG to Doug:
=================================
To DougS, 
      While it is true that digital simulations that we can all run on our computers will likely cost a lot to make, they will provide the results that enable giants like Boeing to launch entirely new series of aircraft without many hitches and certainly no crashes (as is common when we simply design by using home made empirical tools, and then try to convince others of our success without any tangible evidence).  As it is right now, we are all just throwing our apples, pears, chain saws, and hog's heads at the same target at different locations on the target and with different results.  All we have now is the opportunity to make any claims we wish with no one having any reason to believe we are telling the truth.  

So simulators are definitely expensive--but once they are made--they could be distributed worldwide, so any high school student anywhere could use them with their CAD program, and then submit their designs.  Instead of playing computer games for no lasting value they could be developing state-of-the-art wind-power generators and the capability of flying without fuel by tacking in air alone.  So, while there is certainly significant costs, there are vastly more benefits that would be generated for us and all others who would now be able to design and test anything that flies or generates wind power. 
~ Wayne                           September 14, 2012.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7072 From: dave santos Date: 9/14/2012
Subject: Re: approximation of kite test field layout
Roddy,
 
Many thanks for showing Doug that soft kites seem required to make his big idea at least marginally workable at large-scale. We have long needed a real baseline design and demo in his concept-space.
 
Go ahead and blush: You deserve the honor Doug allows no one else. He does not find it "inventive" that i put multiple turbines on a shaft before he even thought of it (for Direct Upwind Sailing- 1990), as well as the many historical instances of the idea that JoeF found,
 
daveS

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7073 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/14/2012
Subject: SkySails stepping toward test farm
SkySails stepping along toward test farm: 
Clipped note on their traction: 
"The latest SkySails product generation for the commercial shipping industry – the SKS C 320 towing kite system with a towing kite area of 320 m2 –  replaces up to 2 MW of the main engine's propulsion power."
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7074 From: dave santos Date: 9/14/2012
Subject: Re: SkySails stepping toward test farm
Congratulations to SkySails on its impressive 55kW product. This looks like very solid progress, a first AWES in its class with credible launch and landing capability. No other AWE player is even close to this performance. Based on rigorous sea-experience and advanced soft-kite tech, its the most cost-effective, safe, and robust solution available.
 
deve santos
KiteLab Group

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7075 From: carlgu Date: 9/14/2012
Subject: Re: SkySails stepping toward test farm

This is a very encouraging progress for the team, hope to have chance to introduce this technology to China later...
 
Cheers!

carlgu
 
Date: 2012-09-15 06:16
Subject: Re: [AWES] SkySails stepping toward test farm
 

Congratulations to SkySails on its impressive 55kW product. This looks like very solid progress, a first AWES in its class with credible launch and landing capability. No other AWE player is even close to this performance. Based on rigorous sea-experience and advanced soft-kite tech, its the most cost-effective, safe, and robust solution available.
 
deve santos
KiteLab Group

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7076 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/15/2012
Subject: Re: Huzzah!- Plenty of Wind for AWE without Excessive Impacts
That is good news. 
It matches an exercise:
Have trees on all land. Under the tree canopy is a leaf factory soaking in sun and slowing ground wind. Transpiration makes the air bubble with lightness; vertical churn occurs. Earth rotates. Sun shines. There is still wind above the tree canopy: vertical and horizontal and oblique and helical ... renewed further from day and night changes and from seasonal earth-tilt changes ... The sun keeps pumping energy into the system.  There will be plenty of wind for AWES.  
~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7077 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/15/2012
Subject: Re: "MegaScale AWES Concepts" review
Intro toward 45 MW Kite Wind Generator. Document in Italian in PDF format: Here. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7078 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/15/2012
Subject: Re: "MegaScale AWES Concepts" review
AWES Community, 
           Your AWES team members are invited to send at least a paragraph on any known MegaScale AWES concept. 
Related online documents that may be linked are encouraged to be given hyperlink. 
This is an exciting and important time in the growth of our nascent industry. 
 
Working file that will grow the results:
You will see that the file has just started. Input from 900+ stakeholders are invited.
Plus anyone else that is interested may input to Editor@UpperWindpower.com  
The project is less than 5% along. This invitation will generate growth. Be a part of this. 
Signing your name is encouraged. Anonymous entries will be examined. 
Commentary about any shown megascale AWES method will be placed in a linked file
on such method. Commentaries are encouraged. 

Thank you for participating in this summary effort.  
The summary will be available for governments, investors, developers, and the public to see.

Best of lift to you and yours, 
Joe Faust
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7079 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/15/2012
Subject: Ancient China ?
 
Someone found in "ancient text"
http://www.energykitesystems.net/China/ancienttextdrawing.jpg  is an enlargement of what is located at 
from a blog at
where machine translation gives: 
"I got the image of the ancient texts that is historical evidence of the "kite Fukurasuzume" from Mr. Sparrow. Kura is閣所Tatsumi Kanazawa formation. Since the "Bunkyu year" in, it seems to have been fried in Kanazawa is already the end of the Edo period. Interesting is where you're writing a "sparrow dark women" the Fukurasuzume. I was surprised when I show you this picture is that there is a kind of umbrella frying conveyed the kite string. And as a fare, I have dropped various things from the sky. I have read with a pseudonym of "squid" and wrote "kite", and more. Maybe I was reading the "squid Fukurasuzume" also "kite sparrow dark women." Might be the thing that shows character of "kite" is how began to spread. Among cold "for Fukurasuzume is rounded inflated feathers systemic in order to increase the thickness of the layer of air I say "Fukurasuzume" especially the sparrow has. It is that of a ". I think there may be seen as a pattern. I think "dark lady sparrow kite" is whether it is not made ​​it a pattern of Fukurasuzume kite. Although it can be seen that the tail had been fried with a roar and, in this picture, I do not know about the skeleton. Mr. Sparrow and further study of this picture, to restore the kite Fukurasuzume, seems to have let the further evolution. As for me, I like the shape of this Fukurasuzume very much. Thanks, just a little, I've been creative impulse springs."
Rod Read, what do you see?  Could that one mid-line item be some sort of turbine beneath a pilot lifter wing?  
Anyone?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7080 From: dave santos Date: 9/15/2012
Subject: Re: Ancient China ?
JoeF,
 
This wonderful painting looks Japanese to me, but not too ancient (19th century?).
 
The device is called a messinger. This is an "advanced" version, in that it returns automatically.
 
Its an early AWES (Airborne Wind Energy System), the energy application being to lift and release items.
 
By adding a second reeling line and a generator, it could be harnessed as a WECS (Wind Energy Conversion System);
 
I have Cc:ed four experts: Lets see if anyone can help us with this,
 
daveS

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7081 From: John Oyebanji Date: 9/15/2012
Subject: Fw: Local Renewables 2012 - Final invitation and registration Freibu
John Adeoye Oyebanji;
CEO, Hardensoft International
President-protem, Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association - AWEIA International

From: Tu My Tran <tumy.tran@iclei.org
Sender: bounce-1233840-466708@lists.iisd.ca
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 14:38:15 +0200
To: Energy-l<energy-l@lists.iisd.ca
Subject: Local Renewables 2012 - Final invitation and registration

Dear colleague,

What is a smart grid? How do smart grids operate? How can they support the achievement of carbon neutrality and 100% renewable communities? What is their potential to support the local economy? And what are the viable investment options? 

These and many other questions will be discussed in-depth at:

Local Renewables Conference Freiburg 2012
Cities and regions explore smart grids and smart solutions 
25-26 October 2012 in Freiburg, Germany

The Final Invitation is now available and includes background information, the programme overview, practical information, registration details and all the necessary conference information.

Register now!
Join to get first-hand experience from innovative pilot projects, engage with high-level stakeholders and share ideas with other interested parties from across Europe and beyond. Don’t miss this opportunity to get in on the ground floor and increase your knowledge of this cutting edge technology.

Deadline for early-bird registrations is 15 September 2012. To register for the conference, click here.

Until 15 September 2012 participants also have the opportunity to benefit from reduced rates at various hotels listed on the conference website.

For more information visit the conference website or send us an email at lr2012@iclei.org

We look forward to seeing you in Freiburg!

Kind regards,


Tu My Tran

On behalf of the Local Renewables 2012 Conference Team
Strategic Services
ICLEI European Secretariat GmbH
Leopoldring 3, 79098 Freiburg, Germany
Phone:   +49-761 / 3 68 92-20
Fax:       +49-761 / 3 68 92-29
E-Mail:  lr2012@iclei.org
WWW: www.local-renewables-conference.org

ICLEI European Secretariat GmbH
GF Wolfgang Teubner 
HRB 4188 Freiburg i. Br.


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Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7082 From: Theo Schmidt Date: 9/16/2012
Subject: Re: Flying a hang-glider like a kite - manned kites?
Doug wrote:
Lots of people do this. It's a sport called parascending, in Britain:
http://www.bhpa.co.uk/parascend/

However this is mostly pulled by a car or boat. Parascending in the wind
is rather dangerous and frowned upon. I've only done it briefly on a
very short line.

The next step ist sailing the manned kite with a sea-kite called a hapa.
See http://www.scribd.com/doc/66251685/Hagedoorn-Inventing-the-Hapa

Several people have tried this, especially Roger Glencross, but only
recently has a person succeeded: Stephane Rousson. See
http://www.seaglider.fr/Seaglider/Bienvenue.html

He lives in Nice, France but it appears that he will be going to this
year's Weymouth Speed Week, incidently in it's 40th aniversary. See
http://www.weymouthspeedweek.com/

Cheers, Theo Schmidt
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7083 From: Theo Schmidt Date: 9/16/2012
Subject: Re: Drag versus lift devices
Doug schrieb:
Even modern sailing boats use very effective drag devices known as
spinnakers (OK, you can get some lift from them as well).

There is not a lot of difference between a drag device and an efficient
lift device sweeping the same area. The point is that you approach 100%
efficiency as the difference between device and stream approaches zero,
and as you say the power also approaches zero. You need some slip, say a
few percent, which will give you over 95% efficiency regardless whether
drag or lift device. However lift devices peter out at about 98% whereas
there is no limit for drag devices; they can approach 100%. All very
academic. This has nothing to do with the Betz limit, which is NOT an
efficiency, but a kind of limit to effectiveness.

Even the most knowledgable people are largely ignorant as available
knowledge far exceeds the human brain capacity. It would be great if you
also admitted to being human and would take that chip off your shoulder.

Cheers, Theo
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7084 From: Doug Date: 9/16/2012
Subject: Re: Flying a hang-glider like a kite - manned kites?
Thanks Theo:
My first CAD drawing in the 1980's in a community college was a sailing craft using a kite and the next thought was why not hang a goy from the kite and eliminate the big boat, reducing it to some sort of keel/rudder.
Anyway so it sounds like the answer to my question is that flying a hang glider or any glider like a kite in the wind is not such a good idea?
Doug

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7085 From: Doug Date: 9/16/2012
Subject: Re: Drag versus lift devices
Yeah newbies always want to say that drag devices are 100% efficient, and issue some meaningless statement indicating they don't really understand Betz - that's normal. What you see as a chip on my shoulder (sorry about that) represents the big chip on the shoulder of all wind energy people as those with no knowledge of the field endlessly declare their superior knowledge, while exhibiting no knowledge at all. WInd... invisible - make up your own story! Maybe people will believe it!

Le's follow the logic you've presented: Sailboats use spinnakers when in their least efficient mode, to try and rescue the bad situation of having to sail directly downwind instead of across the wind, and you are citing the existence of spinnakers as evidence that your drag-based wind turbine will now be 100% efficient. Have I got that right? That all the accumulated knowledge of wind energy is suddenly null and void because you've "played the spinnaker card"?

So all the experts in the industry agree about the Betz coefficient after 100 years of modern study and you're proposing its all null and void because spinnakers exist.

Great. Let's see your 100% efficient spinnaker-powered turbine, M'Kay?

What would you expect? What if someone told you they were not only about to become the leading novelist, but would introduce a new style of writing that would take over novel-writing. Then the next statement out of their mouth was that the alphabet had 42 letters starting with "F". Seriously, someone declared they'd be a novelist, and couldn't recite even the first 3 letters of the alphabet, A, B, C... What would you think?

What would you think the thousandth time someone tried to tell you that exact same thing?
Well that's the same way we in wind energy react when newbies tell us their drag machine will be 100% efficient - here we go again! Spinnakers - hey a certain percentage of the drag-newbies pull that one out of their ass and it means nothing.

Wrong is still wrong even after making the typical desperate and ineffective newbie arguments.
Have fun!
:)
Doug Selsam
http://www.selsam.com

--- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, Theo Schmidt <theosch06@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7086 From: dave santos Date: 9/16/2012
Subject: Re: Drag versus lift devices
I agree with Theo, that the spinnaker is obviously a valid sail to have in one's boat. And the drag devices (drogue decellerators) on aerospace aircraft are hardly an "obsolete" concept. In fact these drogues can process comparable or superior energy by weight and cost as hot airfoils. An intermediate sail like a Gennaker has a large useful range of points of sail at maximum speed. A classic kite depends on its drag-force component as the price of necessary stability.
 
What Doug misses is that no one on this list proposes using Drag-only as the basis for a kite system, and especially that we keep an open mind in allowing marginal conjectures. We are not afraid of newbie openness. To personally abhor abstraction is OK, but it should not be an excuse to bore and belittle. Doug was long ago advised to learn about sailing and aviation, for key AWE lessons, and so that he might transcend his narrow "experts in the wind industry" bias. He did not take the advice, so what AWES can he possibly ever make work well enough then? Even the most drag-dependent (stable) soft AWES high over his towers should end up winning handily over high L/D tower bound efforts, in better wind, on a pure power to capital-cost basis. Doug only needs to wait for the experimenters to catch up with the theorists.
 
KiteLab found in '08 that Drag is often best understood as scrambled or opposed Lift forces. A good example is the efficiency of a soft ring-wing designed to do drogue duty (bol).

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7087 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/16/2012
Subject: AWES resource--the wind--gets great attention
http://www.ceoe.udel.edu/cms/carcher/my_papers/Jacobson_Archer_saturation_PNAS_2012.pdf
Jacobson and Archer are winners ...

Saturation wind power potential and its
implications for wind energy
Mark Z. Jacobson, and Cristina L. Archer.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7088 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/16/2012
Subject: AWES resource--the wind--is enough: Marvel, Kravitz, and Caldeira

Geophysical limits to global wind power 

Received
 
01 May 2012 
Accepted
 
08 August 2012 
Published online
 
09 September 2012

Thanks so much for the good work you do!

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7089 From: benhaiemp Date: 9/16/2012
Subject: International Kite Festival Dieppe 2012

On "Le Monde" Profusion de couleurs au-dessus de Dieppe .

All sorts of kites,even AWE.What it is interesting to see is the huge difference of land use for static _ great amount of huge kites in a small area _ and for crosswind kites.

I have proposed to provide _ with some partnership _ electricity for a furthered session of this Festival and begin studying elements for implementation,a minima with a static FlygenKite at ground among other static kites,or a far more complex installation of a crosswind FlygenKite in sea.

PierreB,

http://flygenkite.com

http://wheelwind.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7090 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 9/16/2012
Subject: Re: International Kite Festival Dieppe 2012
--- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, "benhaiemp" <pierre.benhaiem@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7091 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 9/16/2012
Subject: Re: International Kite Festival Dieppe 2012


Perhaps this link works Profusion de couleurs au-dessus de Dieppe ("Le Monde").

PierreB

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7092 From: dave santos Date: 9/16/2012
Subject: Re: International Kite Festival Dieppe 2012
Bravo Pierre,

You will have "all the help in the world" to power the great international festival in Dieppe, in 2014. 

AWE at all the World's kite festivals is a wonderful early opportunity for us to establish a dedicated social base. Ray Bethel marvels at a million-person kite festival he flew at in Columbia. India has even larger festivals; the whole population of certain cities go kite-mad. Japan, the US, Denmark, Italy, even Guatemala; all have great festivals. The One Sky festival is global, with millions flying as one.

We should form a traveling AWE team (with diverse rotating participation) to do paid demos anywhere, and join the elite circle of  kite festival pros. AWE will also help many small new festivals become major events as well,

daveS

PS Nice coverage in Le Monde for your work.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7093 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/16/2012
Subject: Re: International Kite Festival Dieppe 2012


DaveS,

 

"to power the great international festival in Dieppe, in 2014.",or later.

 

PierreB 






Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7094 From: Dan Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Aerogel
Hi Joe and group,

I think this is a neat link on aerogel.

Dan'l
http://stardust.jpl.nasa.gov/photo/aerogel.html
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7095 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Re: Aerogel

Links
Name Creator Actions
Aerogel
Thanks, Dan
http://stardust.jpl.nasa.gov/photo/aerogel.html
joe_f_90032
Offline

Thanks, Dan.

Any member may add links and files and photos in those sectors of this group.

Some folders have been started. Place items to fit folders.  Or start new folder as needed.

Share what your team has found helpful.

Lift,

JoeF

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7096 From: harry valentine Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Are Wind Farms harming people
Wind farms harming people, see article at:
 
 

This may strengthen the case for AWE, both fly-gen and kite-driven ground-gen variants.


Harry 
 
 
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7097 From: Doug Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Re: Drag versus lift devices - no knowledge => just be nice to 'em..
What's the difference between this group and a real wind energy group?
Well, in this group, I appear to be the only one with a wind energy background. In the real groups, I'm in the majority - everyone there knows about wind energy or at least wants to learn, and when the newbies come in sounding like one more Dave Santos or Theo Schmidt, a hundred active participants, out of thousands of lurkers, can all help to set the person straight. Hopefully in a gentle way, but they tend to start squirming and calling names pretty quick, in most cases.

As a group, we've already got the various types of humorous new wind turbines numbered, like in that old joke about jokes getting a number. Newbies don't know the jokes by number so we can have our fun without insulting the newbies, like mental health people classify delusions. Drag devices such as Dave S. proposes are a #56, for example.

Why the numbering system? Well, we figured out after a few years that our real role is NOT wind energy experts giving advice to newbies. No, our real role is as mental health professionals. Yes you heard that right.

We've found that, if you take a hundred newbies proclaiming the superiority of their drag-based idea, oscillating idea, flapping idea, concentrator idea, etc., asking for opinions, analysis, evaluation, suggestions for improvement, etc., ninety-nine of that hundred will react with hostility to any such requested expert analysis.

The only opinion they were prepared for was "That is a great breakthrough - where can I buy one?". Anything else, and they get really mad. They immediately start calling names, trying to turn their whole original technical question into a personality issue.

They have to bring the Wright Brothers into it, for example. They almost HAVE to cite the fact that the Wright Brothers were ridiculed by "experts" as proof that their Professor Crackpot design MUST be valid. See, if one inventor ever overcame any doubt, that must apply to the newbie too. Why? It feels good to the newbie!

The newbie has painted themselves, psychologically, into a small, well-understood corner. In this corner, they have side-stepped the need to get up to speed in an art, and are instead an innovator in this art, due to their superior "insight"... In this fantasy world, nobody else, in 3000 years, has attained their understanding that in its simplest sense, wind can "push" on a surface.

Nobody has figured out how to get energy from the wind at all - it's all just a huge new mystery, and anyone's opinion is just as valid as the next. There are no existing wind turbines - you can't look out the window and see working windfarms in this extreme fantasy world.

There's no weight limit, no limit to complexity, no limit to cost, no need for reliability, no advantage to hard blades using lift - nothing that has been learned applies in this new fantasy world!

So when someone immersed in this fantasy world steps into the real world of wind energy, we already know exactly what to expect.

We expect to be called every name in the book, especially names like "hostile" "intolerant" "closed-minded" - I can't even think of all the names , but you get the idea. The idea is that the newbies idea CANNOT be truly scrutinized. The ONLY answer to the fact that the experts are pointing out detractive aspects to the design is that the experts are mean, not nice, lacking understanding, are closed-minded, cannot recognize an improvement, etc.

It is only this position that can maintain the delusional newbie's fantasy that they are a genius because they have a breakthrough! The experts MUST be wrong, and darn it, there's no time to argue theory, this is an emergency and there's only time to briefly suggest that the discrepancy is based on the poor attitude of all the experts!

You see this emerge in the form of endless accusations such as "you have a chip on your shoulder". See really, there's no "chip" - I just checked. In reality, that is a dodge. The fact is, there is no chip, just another example of the same old idiot design being suggested for the thousandth time - maybe this time they want to take it to the air but its the same old nonsense.

So we already know, the newbie can only see this as a "chip" on a "shoulder", so we just stop making ourselves a target for every newbie to call us the same names for the thousandth time.

Some of them come in with a new "breakthrough" every few months, each time declaring the new dumb idea as the next paradigm-shattering improvement in the art. Others start with one already-disproven or at least inadvisable idea, and it never changes. Most arrive and disappear within a year, while others "drag" it out for a new years. In the end they all go away eventually, even if it takes a decade.

Anyway, we've recently decided it's not worth our time to tell these people what's wrong with their designs anymore. Too many years of the same pattern, always being called "the bad guy" after taking our time to try and offer constructive critique, when ASKED to do so.

Now we know. We know we're just dealing with "one more nutcase". We now understand that we're NOT being asked to critique a design or idea. We're being asked to stroke the ego of someone who may be in a fragile mental state, and our best move really is to congratulate them on their new idea, and just wish them good luck.

It's not the new idea that's in question, it's just the fargile mental state that we have to be careful not to shatter. We've decided that the "technical discussion" is just a dodge - a backdrop - the issue at hand is not a new design, it's how to keep someone from losing it, having a bad day, and blaming us. That's all really - the machine doesn't matter, since we've seen it so many times, it's more important to just be nice. The real issue is keeping the people from getting upset, and that is all we can really do. So we've decided to keep things like reality out of the discussion.

If we feel the need to critique their idea, we just mention the number of the well-worn joke that their "new" idea falls into, and never tell the newbie what the number even refers to. That way we avoid being in the movie "Groundhog Day" where we have the same stupid argument with the "same" (or similar) person every day for the rest of our lives.

I think this is a good idea since with some people, facts don't matter, and name-calling is all they've got, and all they will never have, and jumping in to enjoy more of that punishment is not productive.

The concepts of "no good deed goes unpunished", "you can't explain to an idiot that they're an idiot", "you've got to choose your battles", "go along to get along", "if you can't say something nice..." etc. all come to bear.

It is kind of amusing and also kind of weird, in this group, every such newbie name-calling desperate denial seems to have the name "Doug" in it, as though if only they could get "Doug" to shut up with his unwanted facts and industry experience, the dubious ideas would suddenly start working and the newbies would have a power-purchase agreement fall into their laps.

In the real wind energy groups, everyone is a "Doug" or at least most people really run windmills and understand how they work, or actually want to learn, so there's not one person citing knowledge against a field of newbies, but instead, usually one newbie, against a field of experts.

Now please bear in mind, my opinion has little or nothing to do with dictating how well your idea will work. I just give my opinion based on some limited experience in the art. Fixating on me and my attitudes will never get your machine in the air and selling power.

So anyway, we've decided in the real world of wind energy on the web, that we're not truly dealing with a technical question at all. Nope, 99% of the time, we're dealing with a mental health case - a break with reality, and just informing the "patient" that they are delusional will NOT cure them. If it were that easy, the whole mental health profession would have a lot fewer job openings.

Nope, even years of "therapy" might be insufficient to "cure" the delusions of someone sufficiently intent on promoting their breakthrough. Since we've had this recent breakthrough (for us) in how best to handle the endless newbies, and it probably behooves me (give me hooves baby!) to carry this policy to this group. Just say "Congratulations and good luck!"

And it makes sense: if you worked in a mental hospital and noticed after a few years, patient after patient with the same unproductive delusions, and notice it's usually impossible to "talk them down" or to factually dispute their delusions, and that debating what they say fact by fact will invariably involve an assault on the personality of the therapist, throwing the whole process into reverse, you'd at some point adopt a policy that adressed the state of the patient rather than argue with the specifics of their delusions, point-by-point.

So to one and all, "Congratulations on your idea and Good Luck!"
I'll save numbering anything since nobody here knows the numbers.
Have a day!
:)
Doug Selsam


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7098 From: dougselsam Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Sample Message List from Real Wind Energy Group
(Just had to share today's real wind energy message list - notice some people actually agree with me! In real wind energy, agreeing with me can be an actual topic!)

1a
Re: I agree with Doug by "Nando" mhp_moderator
1b
Re: I agree with Doug by "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" w5jai
1c
Re: I agree with Doug by "Dean White" deanrwhite
2.1
Re: Number of blades, Re: Jay Leno's wind farm by "Nando" mhp_moderator
3
Checking power curve by "Alex DePillis" adepillis
4
Siva 250/50 Wind Turbine by "m_mayhew@rocketmail.com" m_mayhew@rocketmail.com
5.1
Re: Semi'variable pitch, Number of blades by "Doug" dougselsam
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7099 From: Robert Copcutt Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Re: Are Wind Farms harming people
On Mon, 2012-09-17 at 15:31 +0000, harry valentine wrote:
As soon as someone says, "the wind industry is hugely lucrative" their
credibility goes out the window. The fossil fuel industry is lucrative.
The wind industry is tiny in comparison, and struggling.

Robert.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7100 From: dave santos Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Newbies ///Re: [AWES] Re: Drag versus lift devices - no knowledge =

Doug,

Correction: There are folks with "real wind backgrounds" on this list besides you, its just that you never seem to note their presence, and they don't share an obsessed crusade against "newbies". Some of these folks have large turbine experience to compare with your (admirable) small turbine experience.

You never admit that "We are all newbies in AWE", and that you are an obvious newbie in Aviation/Aerospace, with many of the novice biases that entails. Keeping an open mind is NOT your best mental aspect. Nor is a point-by-point engineering debate. Resorting to negative emotional reactions is no solution.

Enjoy your Newbie status then, and show us how a bright and eager aviation Newbie is supposed to learn (find an Instructor, learn FARS, build hours as a pilot). Don't be afraid to make theoretical mistakes in AWE (you already do) and feel free to question aerospace expert prejudices: They like intelligent skeptics,

daveS

PS. You just set a word-count record for a Forum post...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7101 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Re: Drag versus lift devices - no knowledge => just be nice to 'em..
Please give URL of a file that holds the numbers and their definitions. 
TIA
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7102 From: dave santos Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Newbies Rock //Re: [AWES] Sample Message List from Real Wind Energy
Doug,

Lets steer this thread to AWES.

We know you have fans in conventional wind circles who agree with you. Give us credit, that just like the conventional wind circles, we sometimes agree with you too! We especially agree with your calls to do actual hands-on R&D, not just talk. We can't wait for you latest AWES experiments to emerge (the yardstick turbine last year was cool)

Its a small set of poorly justified assertions your have repeated ad nauseum, where there is no consensus, that cause you consistent push-back. Take your refrain; "All roads lead to the SuperTurbine", which you have described on the Forum as ultimately a ~thousand foot carbon "rotating tower." Tower-based stuff is not even really airborne, nor cheap and practical. The worst bias of yours is to wage an insult war on Forum Newbies instead of our focus on the new engineering mysteries. This off-topic frustration of yours is what gets you moderated, not any of your sincere radical technical convictions.

The AWES Forum is "keepin' it real" too. Someday us Newbies in this bright new field will become fully-polished experts. Lets hope you make it with us, and that you chill on the War-on-Newbies topic,

Proud WECS Vet and AWES Newbie,

daveS
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7103 From: Robert Copcutt Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Re: Drag versus lift devices - no knowledge => just be nice to 'em..
On Mon, 2012-09-17 at 15:55 +0000, Doug wrote:
A forum where newbies can come to get misunderstandings corrected is
important. Anyone is free to create a new forum where only experts are
allowed to post. If there is one already, or you create one, please let
us know here.

How do we know who is the expert? Thinking along those lines reminded me
of this excellent talk.


http://www.ted.com/talks/daphne_koller_what_we_re_learning_from_online_education.html

which is an example of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massive_open_online_course

A diploma or degree in AWE engineering would give the infant industry a
boost. Maybe some of us could earn some money preparing the course
material. A group effort with many contributing small amounts would
lighten the work-load.

Pointing to relevant course material would silence many of the newbies
who do not like to listen. A newbie has a hard time identifying the
experts on a forum like this. Status issues again!

Robert.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7104 From: dave santos Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Re: Are Wind Farms harming people
There is no real mystery here over wind farm noise. The grave harm to health is mostly the human emotional stress-response to a perceived harm. Its real to all who react with dismay to wind farm noise in their lives. They have a clear human right to peace or legal compensation, if they were there first.

Lets not forget AWE can be even worse as a noise-source than conventional wind. Its documented that Makani's Wing7, as an airborne resonator with excitation sources, creates a loud noise signature of the most annoying sort. It will be possible to abate this noise, but at a cost in capital and performance (ie. urethane airframe coatings, vibration-isolation mounts for the flygens, etc.). Many of us barely tolerate common lawn-mower/leaf-blower/weed-eater noise in the US, but at least there are nuisance laws, and the aggravation is over after a short session, for weeks at a time. A similar noise, like a Makani AWT, that persists over a far wider area (by a Minaret or Bell-Tower Effect) at all hours. is not going to be tolerated by most populations.

At the other end of the AWES noise spectrum; giant oscillating soft wings make a sort of  ka-chugging washing-machine noise. In arrays this will sound much like the ocean. A lot depends on whether populations accept this, but we can hope; after all white-noise generators and ocean soundtrack devices are tolerated and even sought by consumers, especially to mask more annoying noise sources. How ironic if Makni AWTs only operate tolerably near populations when sound-masked by soft wing noise.


---------- note -----------------------

Robert veered off-topic to quibble over what "hugely lucrative" meant to Harry's source. In his estimation, nothing less counts than something as hugely profitable as Big Oil. Most of the world uses the phrase far more modestly (like "hugely lucrative career", as number one on Google). Huge is a subjective adjective. Robert's notion of "huge" is tiny by cosmic standards. He shoud not redefine English to (mis)judge "credibility". If he wants to try, a language forum is a better venue. AWE's linguistic mandate is standard usage of existing words, with freedom to create new language seen fit by AWE specialists (like flygen, spider-mill, kixel, etc)

In Texas, Wind Power is a "huge" development, and has been "hugely lucrative" for many of those involved (many starting from Big Oil, like T. Boone Pickens. We now have over ten gigawatts of capacity, more than the next two US states combined. This was not neoliberal greenness, but old-fashioned greed. "Lucrative" just means money can be made. "Huge" has often been restated as: "Big as Texas".


Robert Wrote-

"As soon as someone says, "the wind industry is hugely lucrative" their
credibility goes out the window. The fossil fuel industry is lucrative.
The wind industry is tiny in comparison, and struggling."
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7105 From: dave santos Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Introduction to the Kelvon (WARNING- Contains Advanced Physics)
The Quantum Field Theory (QFT) Phonon-View of AWE is a work-in-progress that has yet to prove itself. After all, Newtonian Approximations suffice to model basic AWE, so why bother extending abstract theory at all? We do it from a spirit of exploration. Who knows what will be found traveling into the Great Unknown?

One of many problems for our initial Phonon View, as presented on the AWES Forum, was Vorticity (Rotation). Its easy enough to see phonons come and go as stress waves in smooth flow and on a line, but what about rotating masses like turbines and turbulence? Sure enough, a ready solution exists in advanced Boson Physics, the Kelvon, a rotating Phonon. In a line vortex each twist is defined as an individual Kelvon Phonon. 

The Kelvon, and its attendant prior-science, helps our Phonon View of AWE advance. As just one example, consider the entire Planetary Atmosphere as a bulk Phonon Field. Its made up of a bunch of bands of twisted Newtonian flows. It can now be crudely quantified beyond its intractable Newtonian Approximation by counting the twists at various scales of space-time and mass-energy. In principle, with enough computing power, one can resolve phonons to the finest Planck Scale.  The QFT view allows us to account for interactions with other particles, like electrons.

Our interest is at the macroscopic scale, however, and a Planetary Scale Phonon View of AWE is definitely a cool idea, perhaps the most futuristic of all our  primitive simulators. We can now even see the electrical Grid as part of a complex AWE QF. We are also testing if this sort of topic is a sterile distraction :)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7106 From: Bob Stuart Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Re: Introduction to the Kelvon (WARNING- Contains Advanced Physics)
To paraphrase Bill Cosby:
Right, Lord.  What's a Phonon?

Bob

On 17-Sep-12, at 3:21 PM, dave santos wrote:


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7107 From: roderickjosephread Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Re: Drag versus lift devices - no knowledge => just be nice to 'em..
I agree with the first part of your post Doug,

Where the subject title says; "Drag versus lift devices - no knowledge" That bit's true, I couldn't vouch for the rest.

We ... none of us know yet... in terms of Power to weight, ROI, scalability, (the architecture of point of cross over for area swept to power out with drag vs lift (i believe it exists)) 

I propose an experiment to help qualify the answer...

Once I've gathered my kite ring data...
Reconfigure a similar inflated hub ring device with rigid lifting blades... 
Take a large diameter, high pressure inflated, woven carbon fibre ring, on it mount rigid lift blades on ring cuffs at a spacing determined by desired TSR and optimal speed profile. (a large ring will take more than 3 blades and still run as per jet engine ) 
With the back end of the new device still lifted by a kite as per "daisy" like design....(warning this could be dangerous if the wind drops suddenly as the spinning rigid blade will tend toward the tower / stem)

I believe in this new configuration ... the new device would produce more power per area swept and the tethers could also be lighter as the air mass swept is slowed less , 
however, I believe the machine would also be more dangerous, costly and trickier to fly.

ponderings ponderings no facts just suppositions...
What do you reckon?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7108 From: roderickjosephread Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Re: Drag versus lift devices - no knowledge => just be nice to 'em..
Guessing I'm a fairly high newb number...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7109 From: Darin Selby Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Re: Introduction to the Kelvon (WARNING- Contains Advanced Physics)
With all due respect, I do believe that it is.


To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: bobstuart@sasktel.net
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 15:25:15 -0600
Subject: Re: [AWES] Introduction to the Kelvon (WARNING- Contains Advanced Physics)

 
To paraphrase Bill Cosby:
Right, Lord.  What's a Phonon?

Bob

On 17-Sep-12, at 3:21 PM, dave santos wrote:



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7110 From: dave santos Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Re: Introduction to the Kelvon (WARNING- Contains Advanced Physics)
Bob,

You ask "What is a phonon?" 

Its a Boson, a Force carrier. Its an intrinsic unit of Heat in Quantum Thermodynamics. Its named after the heat aka "sound" (hence the phon- prefix).

In AWE, the most common instance is as the most basic unit of "kite tug" force. So a tug pulse of a given wavelength and amplitude is a Phonon. A quantum unit of torque (twisted tug or push) is a Kelvon.

These standard semantic abstractions connect us to the large community of physicists who developed them (even if they otherwise just annoy Doug ). New formal proofs are possible. Breakthroughs may occur. Shucks, we could even win a Nobel if we get this right ;^)

Hope this helped,

daveS
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7111 From: Bob Stuart Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Re: Introduction to the Kelvon (WARNING- Contains Advanced Physics)
Thanks for the attempt, but I don't know enough about quantum physics to appreciate the analogy.  Experience in the realm of Newtonian physics makes it hard to "see" the atomic world, where all normal expectations are confounded.  Perhaps you could try an explanation based entirely on things we can see and feel?

Bob Stuart

On 17-Sep-12, at 7:30 PM, dave santos wrote:


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7112 From: dave santos Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Re: Introduction to the Kelvon (WARNING- Contains Advanced Physics)
Bob, 

Phonons exist as quasi-particles across the entire space-time scale. This not just about the atomic scale (or cosmic scale), which is anyways these-days "visible" by the right microscope (or telescope). This is mostly about our AWES engineering scale. If you want to "see" a common phonon with a kite, the catenary of the line by superposed gravity and wind drag indicates the resulting standing wave phonon.  Anywhere you see a visual trace of a mechanical stress wave (like ocean waves)

You can feel phonons in your life (knocks, sounds, etc.), but eyeballing them is indirect and requires photons to leak or reflect from them. The coolest example is ocean tides, which image the Earth-Moon Kelvon Field, an instance of megascale phonon graviton (also a Boson) interaction (Note how pop physics (and out-of-date physicists) still think all gravitons are hard to detect*).

What started me down this path as a kid was realizing that 100m wavelength radio literally entails Photons of 100m size. Even if our eyes cannot see such a "huge" photon, a large radio telescope "eye", like Arecebo Observatory, can. This is not the best place to learn QFT, and its Boson Physics branch. Wikipedia well covers the basics, but we are at the very frontiers of QFT application. It takes time to Grok this stuff. I have been teasing apart the deep QFT of kite tug for five years now, and its only slowly becoming beautifully clear...

daveS

* "Standard target" (binary pulsars) cosmic gravitons are hard to detect, due to distance inverse-squared law.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7113 From: Doug Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Re: Drag versus lift devices - no knowledge => just be nice to 'em..
You don't need a number.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7114 From: Doug Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Newbies Rock //Re: [AWES] Sample Message List from Real Wind Energy
OK well I tried to make you an expert and i hope some rubbed off.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 7115 From: Bob Stuart Date: 9/17/2012
Subject: Re: Introduction to the Kelvon (WARNING- Contains Advanced Physics)
What's the difference between your phonon, and a wave?

Bob

On 17-Sep-12, at 9:43 PM, dave santos wrote: