Thanks for the warm welcome!

Yes South Africa is ideal for AWE. The windy spot on the Western coast is very windy,sparsely populated, and in great need of electricity due to there being no other energy sources.

The only wish I have to to be able to work on it full time. Maybe Copenhagen can open up some finances for such research projects? (I saw on the news that South Africa wants to pledge a drop of 40% green house gasses by 2020 if I'm not mistaken. The rest of the world is probably pledging similar figures? Most of our green house gasses are from coal powered stations.)

If anyone needs a full time employee with experience and a passion for kite design, digital control and power electronics, then please don't hesitate to contact me. I have a year's experience designing the kite for www.mullersitefishing.com, and would love to aim a bit higher in the future- AWE.

Oh, and my original question still stands: if anyone has info they can share about auto piloting a para-foil type kite, please forward it to me.

Regards

Christoff Muller

URL update with an s

http://MullersKiteFishing.com

Christoff,   Your kitefishing gear is very cool; the stable tack angle of the Pearson Roller is impressive & the kite-ferry in particular is very interesting. Paul's Fish Kites has been a great inspiration & now there are two great kitefishing developers. Fishing greatly informs kite tech.   Durban is a fantastic location to tap the Agulhas Current with tacking water kites (paravanes) that run out paravane/drogue ferry-like loops: Such vast power & far more dependable than wind, its a terrawatt resource. Durban has the perfect maritime industrial base to act on such an opportunity. Your gear is a miniature of the concept, you could almost* do experiments simply by adding bits of float & ballast to your fishing rig & throwing it in the water. In any case you have the basic logic to develop over time into large scale concepts (note: hydrostats can carry power loops below shipping)   Note that JohnO on this list has SA connections & we have already marveled over the Agulhas resource. This is certainly a great fit with CO2 reduction goals. We are also planning a university course in kite tech, particularly AWE, for Nigeria.   Re: Controlling a Parafoil; easiest by far is to attach a pilot kite on a leader to a wing-tip (bridled to A & B lines). Let the foil loop freely, held up by the pilot (& its own swept disc AoA). Various means tap the power. Properly tuned the foil stops spinning before landing in a lull.   daveS   * there tend to be minor near-shore retrograde currents to clear

Hi , yes the Pearson Roller is wonderful kite for both stability and high lift-drag ratio. I originally didn't think it would be possible to get a kite to tack 70 degrees and stay stable. My early kitefishing success had been with an unstable kite with very high lift/drag, and using a float/drogue combination to keep it "stable".

Regarding the Agulhas current, I never really thought about tapping its energy before. Just always knew it resulted in keeping our weather nice and warm, with warm sea water. I once tried making a paravane. After a few days of strong winds, we tend to get a stong side curent right at the shoreline, which wahses our fishing lines out in no time. I tried to make the paravane to use the side current to pull the lin out further and had some success. Unfortunately the drag in water is so high that getting more than 50m out to sea was near impossible. Whatever system would use sea curents will have to have very low drag.

Regarding the parafoil- I am actual thinking of getting a computer to control the kite. This has the big advantage that the computer can fly the kite in various sized patterns/loops, enabling the relative wind over the kite to be nearly constant for a wide range of wind speeds. A computer controlled kite also means we can get maximum power from a certain sized kite (high performance of course), which will make the total system cost very low once the system gets scaled up to hopefully MW range.

Regards

Christoff

Dave & Christoff,
 
Several years ago a group of surfers toured the world in search of the best waves to surf. They found such waves off the South Africa coast, to the north of Durban. Those waves could only exist in the presence of very favourable offshore winds . . . indicating great potential for offshore airborne wind power development in that region.
 
Harry
 

---

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: santos137@yahoo.com
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 19:03:44 -0800
Subject: Re: [AWE] Re: South Africa

 

Re: Side-Planing   Yes, line drag in water is a major design driver. Its a requirement that the side-planer & power drogue loop have a very shallow angle out, but every 'sail" element can contribute to a modest overall tack angle of, say, 20 degrees overall for the catenary curve. Its desirable to site from a land point that projects out & return the power loop in the down current shadow & retrograde current. There are such sites near Durban.   Re: Controlling Parafoils   There are several AWE efforts that actively automate the parafoil, but all have the same issues of reliability, weight, capital cost, actuation power supply, etc. Passive methods are currently more mature & a technique exists for every major requirement. For example, a foil can self trim across conditions by elastic bridle sections, TE reflex, etc..   The real question is not active v. passive methods, but what mix of passive & active wins at present. My bias is toward inherently semi-stable aviation systems allowing minimalist active control. I devote rationed automation resources to making the pilot-lifter even more robust by small (slow, low powered) trim inputs. Even this seems overkill if linked arrays (trains, arches, nets, matrices) of semi-stable elements collectively cancel local failure. Active methods will someday mature, but its the bleeding edge until then to critically depend on them.

Note:

http://www.ecoworld.com/fuels/high-altitude-wind-powers-possibilities.html#comment-27966

Article .   Same.

 

 

Christoff,

Joby Energy joined AWEA as a business member.
Has any other AWE entity joined AWEA or GWEC?

Re: Harry

Are you talking about offshore winds that are strong and blow far offshore, or winds at the coast that blow in an offshore direction? Would b strange if its the latter, since the the lack of winds blowing out to sea is the reason kitefishing is not too big in South Africa. I assume you're talking about the former.

For strong winds far out to sea I think one doesn't need to look much further than the "roaring forties" which occur over the landless strech of ocean below 40degrees south latitude. On almost any global wind map, the area from the tip of South America, passed the bottom of South Africa and back to new zealand has probably the best wind stats on the planet. The only problem is that the seas are rough as a result, but its should be worth considering?

Re: Controlling parafoils

I can just imagine the issues of reliability, weight, capital cost, actuation power supply for active control of parafoils. However, I think for kite power to really take off it must provide a significant improvement over ground wind turbines. My perception is that this can only happen in one of two ways:

1) Autonomous computer control to maximize energy extracted
2) Tapping very high altitude winds

Obvious other AWE methods that don't require either of these will certainly become better than ground turbines, but it will not be a giant leap forward to really get AWE into mainstream and competing even with coal/nuclear in terms of lifetime cost.

Re: Chris

I think most existing aeroplane control system make use of accelerometers. I recently saw some rc-planes and even an rc-helicopter that could fly via on-board autopilots. They all seemed to use accelerometers for sensors. Do you also plan on using accelerometers for feedback?

Maybe using accelerometer for feedback of the kite's position/orientation could work. Those sensors are small and not too expensive for lower accuracy ones. However, I can just imagine that the number crunching will be lots, with lots of programming to get the system to work reliably. A secondary feedback sensor will be needed to compensate for inaccuracies probably. The nice thing about this method will be the scalability to 10km high systems, where an optical feedback will simply not help. Then again, a GPS sytem will probably be much easier and more reliable than accelerometers once an AWE system develops as far as multiple km's high.

Attachments :

See Attachment for info on Accellerating patent aplications for "green" patents
Spacecannon

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/12/dynalifter/


============ Moderator here:
Perhaps this could be on topic for various reasons.
Coming to mind:
1. The Dynalifter might lift and launch airborne wind-energy conversion systems) AWECS on its way from point A to point B.

2. During landing process, perhaps Dynalifter could have regenerative braking which would go to recharge onboard batteries. Such would be airborne wind-energy conversion.

3. Perhaps Dynalifter could more economically ship finished AWECS. Again spot launch them from the sky along a long path, like seeding the land ---a Johnny Appleseed of AWECS.

4. ?
==========================

From "John Gay, or Work for Boys," by Jacob Abbott, Hurd & Haughton, New York, 1864:

http://books.google.com/books?id=osUDrzDBn-8C&pg=PA185&lpg=PA185&dq=%22kite+ship%22&source=bl&ots=aXoW15P0yP&sig=4s-8bWlg6iLFndA7-kIqiRuta94&hl=en#v=onepage&q=%22kite%20ship%22&f=false

Great, DaveC.
http://www.energykitesystems.net/KiteShip/index.html
was formed from your lead.

Greetings Joe Skywalker Faust and Group

4. Dynalifter as lifter, crew changeover every 8 hrs. for major extraction of wind energy. In the day I was a boiler men, I had a job, keeping the whole operation s.a.f.e., i.e. some energy in and a lot more out may be cost effective. X-Mas.

Attachments :

You may be thinking, "What!  Are you nuts?"  But read on as I propose the beginning of the long-anticipated revolution in airship travel...minus the helium, has already begun.

To lift 250lbs. of cargo with helium gas, that is contained in a 20 ft. balloon, requires about $1000 in helium cannister rentals.  How much helium does the Dyna-Lifter need?  Helium is U.S. govt. controlled.  Natural gas is cryogenically frozen to extract the helium from it, has to be in the airship.

Why not use hydrogen?  It can be produced via kite wind power and solar.  "Remember the Hindenberg!" is the supposed reason why it is not presently used, or allowed to be used, in airships. 

Though, was it really the hydrogen that was the culprit, or could it have been only the mismanagement of it that was the problem?  The scientific misinformation that was spread by the media in those days basically stopped the decentralized hydrogen airship evolution in its tracks!

That is, until now. 

For starters, the Hindenburg had a highly combustible cotton membrane fabric that was sealed with a naphthalene coating.  (mothballs) This sealant was permeated with aluminum dust.  Perhaps the Nazis had purposefully added this ingredient to make their airship appear metallic from the ground, and therefore more ominous?  If so, it truly became their Achilles' heel!  Aluminum dust is also highly flammable.  And even though these combined ingredients are a recipe for one hell of a wick,  the Hindenburg logged over 1 million miles of troupe transport!

The idea of many airships floating around would really take off if one was allowed, by law, to utilize hydrogen again.  But how can we embrace this concept with a technology to use H2 lifting gas in a safe way? 

One main idea had been overlooked until recently.  On Aug 4th, 2004 Vasilios Dossas received a patent (see attachment) for basically "a balloon in a balloon"!  Of course, modern-day non-flammable, highly durable fabrics are now substituted.  And O2, H2 sensors are placed in the the outer balloon envelope, that is filled the inert gas of Nitrogen.

Nitrogen gas can also be made in the comfort of your own home.  The technology is called, Pressure Swing Adsorption (PSA) and the process is to send compressed air through a Zeolite sieve.  Oxygen goes one way, being a smaller molecule, and Nitrogen goes the other way, and is stored.

It also works as easily to store the oxygen, which is very beneficial for all of us to breathe in concentrated amounts from time to time.  There are many portable O2 devices being now marketed that use PSA. 

I have spoken with the inventor about his patent, and presently he is just sitting on it and biding his time, until the rest of us come around to his way of thinking.

I believe that this is a subtle revolution, that hardly anyone knows has even occurred.  This concept of encapsulating the H2 balloon with a thin blanket of N2 (to prevent the H2 from touching the O2!) could lead to the creation of an entire civilization based upon this simple principle!

Balloonotopia could be just around the corner!  How would we do things, and go about our daily grind if it all lifted up off the ground?  Well, for starters, there could be an asphalt paving moratorium, leading to the eventual digging up and removal of what has been aready laid down.  No more urban runoff!  This land starts to breathe again, and the swaths of land that before had roads, can now be farmed and beautified. 

The heavy metal vehicle, with its toxic tires, would quickly become obsolete, as transportation takes to the sky!  All of the centralized high-tension power lines would also have to go.  But that's okay, because just about everyone is producing their electricity via decentralized wind and solar technology!

The Dynalifter represents to me just the start of really implementing many different highly aerodynamic and stable airships.  Eventually a completely solar-powered foldable one, with built-in tensegrity struts, that fills up with the H2/N2 gas in just a few minutes, to maybe take one or two people wherever they want to go!

Here is a few children's stories I've written on the concept.  Enjoy!

http://darinselby.1hwy.com/birdsfrogsfishfreshair03.html

http://darinselby.1hwy.com/afloatinford03.html

http://darinselby.1hwy.com/spinningairshipglider03.html

---

Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. Get it now.

Hi all,
It has been a learning pleasure to found, own, and moderate this group for a year. I will hand over the ownership of this group to someone. Who will step up and own this group for a term? Our other moderator who just started will probably help the next owner.

Suggestion:
Some new posting rules would probably help posters stay on topic. Perhaps the group could pause and obtain a consensus on moderation rules that will keep the group open, yet at a high quality ...the quality that the group defines.

On or before December 17, 2009, I will step out of the ownership position of this group and click on the ownership-level privilege to another or to several. It could be a high adventure for someone to guide this AWEsome group for an exciting emerging industry.

That gives us five days to find a new owner.

Lift to you and all,
JoeF

Yeah, the dope used on the fabric skin of the Hindenberg was suitable for use as rocket fuel.  I'd be wary of any large-scale use of hydrogen because it leaks so easily and is a potent greenhouse gas.  However, if it displaces a much larger overall effect from carbon dioxide, we'd have a win.  On large kiteships, we could use double wall construction with catalysts to turn leaks back into water.  It would be very handy to produce make-up gas from an on-board generator for sustainable flight.

I agree, I'm planning on using Hydrogen on my idea, with on board production, if the Govt./NIMBY's will let me. Lynn aka Spacecannon
---- Bob Stuart <bobstuart@sasktel.net

Joe, what will happen if no one steps forward? does the group fold? I can't, not computer savy enough. I'll miss this group. Lynn

Lynn,
Without bothering their e-mails, three more moderators have been established. We are thus five moderators. I wlll be stopping moderating next week. JohnO has graciously moderated some following is just recent inclusion in the moderator team. The three upgraded to moderator today are not being sent notices of posts until they so choose that function; they will exercise their moderator status by going online to the group funciton, at their option, and exercise the privilege and moderation action.

Until next week on the 17th, the four new moderators may delete that status as they wish or add that they will be e-mail noticed of posts ready for moderation.

================================================
IMPORTANT: If any member wishes to SAVE posts that have been made, about 700 are available, then do so, just in case the new owner deletes the group. Upon deletion, the messages and some FILES and ATTACHMENTS and PHOTOS would no longer be available. SO, PLEASE SAVE TO YOUR COMPUTER YOUR OWN BACKUP OF WHAT INTERESTS YOU. This is often a good idea anyway.
================================================

Lynn, there has been a tension to form a new group with a new name with higher consensus for the format and configuration of the group. Someone may well start a new group to fit such consensus. Yahoo! Groups does not let us change the base name of a group.

To your question:
If no owner steps up and is accepted, then I will trigger that only the owner remaining can post; members will not be able to post messages. So, the moderation action and need goes to zero. And the message archive will be reset to be open to members only, and not the broad public, which might even be the choice of for the group; we really do not know about the consensus on this detail. Hence, the message archive and Files and old Attachements and Files and Links will remain reachable by members. Hence, the group would not have general member posting in messages, but the members could still reach the old messages.

HERE IS MY GUESS:
It well may be time for someone to start a fresh group with a fresh name. The influence of a just a few of us may well have been important for getting started, but our influence might be best put in pause mode while a large consensus forms something fresh.

NOTICE: ====================================
The struggles to birth and nourish several dimensions of the kite-energy movement have been a joy. It has been a privilege to communicate with so many during this effort. During the high enthusiasm effort I formed many sites with serving text and images and links. Those sites last night were put behind the scenes for a large rework effort. Clicking any of the sites will meet a small notice. No passkeys will be given during the messy rework; there is just a staff of one here; and the job is large; it will take considerable time before relaunch. Others are expected to begin to more than fill the gaps, so is my hope and ....feelers say.

For one, a huge well-designed educational structure is being birthed in Africa that will finally have global reach for AWE online learning. We will be owe large indebtedness to JohnO and his team for a world-changing building of worker base for the emerging industry.

So, there is no need to click to the following sites until the major rework is completed:

Essentially: "Closed for major rework"
Dec. 13, 2009 Cloak to energykitesystems.net
www.aweia.org
www.highaltitudewindpower.com
www.hawpa.net
www.hawpa.com
www.airbornewindenergy.com
www.kitelabgroup.com
www.energykitesystems.net
www.kiteenergysystems.net
www.hanggliderhistory.com
www.hgausa.com
www.styrofoamkites.com
www.joefaust.org
www.cupkites.com

It has been a privilege to correspond with many of you via e-mail. I wish all of our members clarity and true peace each day and especially from the radiation of holidays. And I wish all here a High and Lifting 2010. From my view, I see tethered aviation flying true and strong making energy for very many and helping substantially to reduce dependence of fossil fuels while sustaintable use of the wind will reign . Personally I am more than rededicating my time and energy into tethered wind-energy conversion systems, but with a modified participation. You are a great group of enthusiastic enery aeronauts; keep up the airspeed ... one way or another. See you in the sky ...

JoeF, I value this group enough to offer to own it. Please consider me for it's ownership or part-ownership. Regards. JohnO

Interesting lecture on Boundary Layer Meteorology

Ohio State University course. Power Point slide deck.

http://geog-www.sbs.ohio-state.edu/courses/G622.01/lectures/01%20Intro%20-%20Boundary%20Layer%20Climatology.ppt

http://simplifierlab.com/mt/archives/2009/12/what-matters-now.php

This has nothing to do with AWECS, and this also has EVERYTHING to do with AWECS.

70 of the smartest people on the planet each wrote a 200-word essay on What Matters Now. This free e-book is the compilation of those essays by marketer Seth Godin. Page 7 alone is worth the download; embodies the entire universe of alternative energy, and alternative everything else, in a Venn Diagram plus 12 words.

(Free as a PDF; also available--free--in other formats, here):

http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2009/12/what-matters-now-get-the-free-ebook.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+typepad%2Fsethsmainblog+%28Seth%27s+Blog%29&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher

THE "MODERATOR" IS GONE AND WILL BE MISSED, ALL HAIL THE NEW MODERATORS, LONG LIVE THE MODERATORS, HA-ZA, HA-ZA, HA-ZA.

Spacecannon


---- Joe Faust <joefaust333@gmail.com

Them as can, do and own.

If I had my druthers, this wouldn't be a Yahoo group. They just got
caught with a standard price list for selling to snoopers.
Anyway, here's a second attempt to send my last paragraph, and my sig:

If I build anything next year, it will be cabin-size. I'd like to
try a long pipe on a steep slope, connecting two water reservoirs.
It will contain a piston to carry water up in a long pull by a
rogallo kite playing across the wind. Then the kite will relax, and
let the piston pull it down for another load. When electricity is
wanted, a generator will be used on the return pipe. If a pelton
wheel is inefficient at running just a few lights, I'll try a
diaphragm pump running as a motor.

Bob Stuart

Yes, that ship is definite proof of the anti-entropic potential of
flocking butterflies. Having them tethered would be tragic.

Also, 3 cheers for Joe F, for all the serious work around here,
including the recent volunteer legal work to reduce patent woes.

Bob Stuart

http://www.energypulse.net for the next few days

---

Get Windows 7 for only $39.99-CDN College or University students only. This offer ends Jan 3-upgrade now!

Nice article, Harry. Congratulations!

Dave Culp

See if you can find it.

http://energy.wesrch.com/Paper/display_pdf.php?pdf_file=6RR_1260773220.pdf

hint: It's in a graphic.

- Dimitri

Clever Dave. I like it! The old spinning button toy is similar:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T49vTFxtWUM

I wonder if you could get even higher "gear ratios" with it? It would surely be helpful to use the flywheel effect to smooth and continue the motion. Still, I don't think you could take power out of the system more than 50% of the time. Not so bad, though, about the same as other kite-in/kite-out systems, I think.

Still, the weakness to either approach is the high wear to the string. Even something very wear resistant (Spectra? Kevlar?) would not last but a few, perhaps a few 10's of hours. Wax would help, but only incrementally. I wonder if the scheme would work with steel cable, or even chain? I bet it would.

Dave

Several of us in The Robot Group tried the twisted string idea in reverse for a motor driven linear actuator but the fatigue was the big problem. Nylon worked best(hours) and steel cable failed within a few minutes. We never tried chain so that may be worth a shot.
-brooks

Oh, and I've got most of my design finished and witnessed but still a few more accessory options to finish before posting. One being the feedback controlled variable ratio transmission, something that should be very helpful for AWECS.
-brooks

Utility Technology Challenge

Clean Technology Testing & Pilot Partner Identification Program

A wealth of related art can be found in the "pumpkin chunkin' " torsion catapult craze. It does seem that carefully specifing the loads & lay construction of the rope greatly maximises wear. Some elasticity is essential, plus low friction, so nylon is favored.   But here is a kicker discovered by playing with my acrobat-   The lines of the toy acrobat need not cross (for a single long stroke) & can be replaced by solid rods. Just ball joint or eye bolt wear then...   Note too that ballistic launch of a pilot kite element into wind aloft may be a winner over helium, towing, etc.

If I understand what you're doing, and and I'm not sure I do, have you thought of a steel flexure. If you design it using the right steel and operate in the elastic range they have something like infinite life.

At the upper end of the elastic range, fatigue fracture happens within a few loading cycles.  What you are aiming for here is the fatigue limit, which is often applied to steel, at 1/2 the ultimate tensile strength.  That is good for several million cycles, although there is no absolute limit to produce infinite fatigue life.  Most materials don't have the almost-level area on the fatigue chart that steel and some titanium alloys exhibit.  Carbon fiber is good for long-lived springs, too, although any practical use would need careful resin testing, too.

Dear Bob,

Is the focus being to create a real fun Christmas toy, or a reliable way to make electricity?

---

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: christopher.m.carlin@btinternet.com
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 04:05:28 +0000
Subject: Re: [AWECS] mechanical step-up by toy-acrobat mechanism

 

  We are yet to gather news enough on our group.

http://www.3me.tudelft.nl/live/pagina.jsp?id=0bd4c61f-4648-4201-be12-7a353e637f0b&lang=en 

This note is after the fact.

Reps are wanted from each entity and each nation.

I don't think you guys are saying anything which contradicts one another other. Dave L; the 1/3 windspeed to leeward has to do with the input velocity of the line; the speed of the end of the acrobat's arm is a function of its geometry--the output. It is in effect the gear ratio and is  analogous to the gear box in any turbine. Sure, the "gear ratio" wants to be adjusted--for best efficiency--so that the generator's load causes the system to work at that optimal 1/3 windspeed at the kite, but there's no contradiction regarding the gearbox--this can be any of many gear ratios--to suit the generator's needs, not the kite's.

Everything else Dave S says is valid, I think. I'd like to see a proper engineering study regarding his "more efficient than a gear box" claim--modern gearboxes are pretty darn efficient--but still his words ring true to me. Dave S, I'm agreeing with you, not disagreeing--even if the "toy" system isn't more efficient than a "proper" gearbox, it surely isn't a whole lot less efficient if carefully designed and built. More to the point, it ought to be an order of magnitude cheaper to build and is suitable to manufacture by third world technology--two very great "wins" regardless of ultimate efficiency. Nice work.

Cheers,

Default Dave