Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                                AWES6915to6965 Page 36 of 440.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6915 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/4/2012
Subject: Re: Airships

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6916 From: Doug Date: 9/4/2012
Subject: Re: Vast Meshes of Small Caged Gerbils?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6917 From: Bob Stuart Date: 9/4/2012
Subject: Re: Airships

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6918 From: Doug Date: 9/4/2012
Subject: Flying a glider like a kite?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6919 From: harry valentine Date: 9/4/2012
Subject: Re: Joby Energy no more...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6920 From: dbmurr@ymail.com Date: 9/4/2012
Subject: Re: Flying a glider like a kite?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6921 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/4/2012
Subject: Re: Airships

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6922 From: Doug Date: 9/4/2012
Subject: Re: Flying a hang-glider like a kite - manned kites?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6923 From: Bob Stuart Date: 9/4/2012
Subject: Re: Airships

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6924 From: dave santos Date: 9/4/2012
Subject: Reminding Doug How Well the Forum Tracks Stealth-Players

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6925 From: Doug Date: 9/4/2012
Subject: Re: Airships

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6926 From: dave santos Date: 9/4/2012
Subject: Rebutting Doug on Key Points

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6927 From: Robert Copcutt Date: 9/4/2012
Subject: Re: Airships

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6928 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/4/2012
Subject: Re: Vast Meshes of Small Caged Gerbils?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6929 From: dave santos Date: 9/4/2012
Subject: Re: Airships

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6930 From: Robert Copcutt Date: 9/4/2012
Subject: Re: Airships

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6931 From: Robert Copcutt Date: 9/4/2012
Subject: Re: Joby Energy no more...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6932 From: dave santos Date: 9/4/2012
Subject: Re: Airships

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6933 From: edoishi Date: 9/4/2012
Subject: Mothra at WSIKF

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6934 From: Doug Date: 9/5/2012
Subject: Re: Joby Energy no more... linkedin

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6935 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/5/2012
Subject: UAV education

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6936 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/5/2012
Subject: Re: UAV education

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6937 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/5/2012
Subject: Happy news regarding SpiralAirfoil

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6938 From: Robert Copcutt Date: 9/5/2012
Subject: Re: Joby Energy no more... linkedin

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6939 From: Robert Copcutt Date: 9/5/2012
Subject: Re: Airships

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6940 From: dave santos Date: 9/5/2012
Subject: LLJs Not Rare! //Re: [AWES] Re: Airships

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6941 From: dave santos Date: 9/5/2012
Subject: Re: UAV education

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6942 From: John Oyebanji Date: 9/5/2012
Subject: Fw: Clean Energy Events Listing 5th September: Canada, India, UK & U

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6943 From: Doug Date: 9/5/2012
Subject: Re: Reminding Doug How Well the Forum Tracks Stealth-Players

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6944 From: Doug Date: 9/5/2012
Subject: Re: Joby Energy no more...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6945 From: dave santos Date: 9/5/2012
Subject: Fw: NASA AWE Promo Video

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6946 From: dave santos Date: 9/5/2012
Subject: Improved Pumping from Two Anchors for Persistent Flight

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6947 From: John Oyebanji Date: 9/5/2012
Subject: Re: Reminding Doug How Well the Forum Tracks Stealth-Players

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6948 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 9/6/2012
Subject: Airborne Seaborne Wind Energy System

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6949 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/6/2012
Subject: Re: Airborne Seaborne Wind Energy System

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6950 From: Bob Stuart Date: 9/6/2012
Subject: Re: Airborne Seaborne Wind Energy System

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6951 From: roderickjosephread Date: 9/6/2012
Subject: Re: Airborne Seaborne Wind Energy System

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6952 From: roderickjosephread Date: 9/6/2012
Subject: Re: Airborne Seaborne Wind Energy System

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6953 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/6/2012
Subject: Re: Airborne Seaborne Wind Energy System

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6954 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/6/2012
Subject: Re: Airborne Seaborne Wind Energy System

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6955 From: Doug Date: 9/6/2012
Subject: Re: Airborne Seaborne Wind Energy System

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6956 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/6/2012
Subject: Re: Airborne Seaborne Wind Energy System

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6958 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/6/2012
Subject: Re: Improved Pumping from Two Anchors for Persistent Flight

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6959 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/6/2012
Subject: Re: Airborne Seaborne Wind Energy System

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6960 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/6/2012
Subject: Ecomagination == PR article for AWES

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6961 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/6/2012
Subject: Re: Airborne Seaborne Wind Energy System

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6962 From: dave santos Date: 9/6/2012
Subject: WIshing PierreB Well at Dieppe, the World's Most Prestigious Kite Fe

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6963 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/6/2012
Subject: Re: WIshing PierreB Well at Dieppe, the World's Most Prestigious Kit

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6964 From: dave santos Date: 9/6/2012
Subject: Proving Mothra-Tech Capabilities in Water, Snow, (and Sand)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6965 From: dbmurr@ymail.com Date: 9/6/2012
Subject: Re: Super sparkle



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6915 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/4/2012
Subject: Re: Airships
Very appropriate share, Dan ... thanks. 

While all those LTA are  parked low or high, let them hang out a million SpiralAirfoil  devices to help pay their way.
Is the new fracting bringing more helium?

In support of your share: 

These growing airship enterprises might indicate that some will diversify into LTA AWES. 

~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6916 From: Doug Date: 9/4/2012
Subject: Re: Vast Meshes of Small Caged Gerbils?
GerbilTech: the future of energy.
:)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6917 From: Bob Stuart Date: 9/4/2012
Subject: Re: Airships
AFAIK, helium is not normally present in natural gas in economic concentrations.  In Texas, it is a by-product that gets thrown away if not sold, so by 2040, we will be back to paying about a dollar per cc of Helium.

Bob Stuart

On 4-Sep-12, at 9:23 AM, Joe Faust wrote:
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6918 From: Doug Date: 9/4/2012
Subject: Flying a glider like a kite?
I'm wondering if there's much in the way of experience or advice regarding the flying of a typical glider, or sailplane, as a kite.
Bridle geometry? Stability? Steering? Can we attach two lines and fly a glider like a stunt kite?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6919 From: harry valentine Date: 9/4/2012
Subject: Re: Joby Energy no more...
It appears that most of the high-profile airborne wind energy companies that have failed, depended on some form of government funding. Except that most government funded technology has a low success rate in the open market. Privately financed technology seems to have a higher rate of market success.


Harry

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: doug@selsam.com
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 14:11:35 +0000
Subject: Re: [AWES] Joby Energy no more...

 
Dave S.:
Well this forum is still my favorite place on the web (sigh). And it survives despite your incessant drivel. Better to have a formu that at least looks at the future, though it be populated mostly by the ignorant, than no forum at all.

I didn't say no Nostradamus-loudmouths on this forum have predicted these firms would quit their efforts. I said nobody on this forum announced these failures because none of us know what these companies are doing, even to within a year, and nobody from these companies posts here. You are not the only one who predicted these companies would fail. I've been pointing out that Magenn merely took the least-effective wind turbine design into the air, making it more expensive. Any IDIOT who could run numbers could see there could NEVER be anything CLOSE to economical power production from a Magenn. Now they could have licensed a solution from me that could have increased their output dramatically and maybe given them a fighting chance, but strangely, so many would-be wind energy innovators are allergic (immune to?) facts. "Wind is invisible therefore it does what we say". This week. Next week we are out of business. Oh nooo Mr. Billll! We lied! We can't maintain the facade anymore! We get to go out of business now! At least our logos is still on the AWEConsortium website!

Of course everyone knows you have predicted that everyone will fail, since they don't have your advanced knowledge of oscillating arrays of flapping kites. You HAVE solidly predicted that the future of wind energy is your oscillating arrays, and you go into all sorts of nonsensical would-be applications of every poorly-understood fringe-science buzzword to a subject which you clearly do not understand: wind energy. So where are your results now? It's been 3 years of your domineering nonsense - where is any AWE system resulting from your vast genius??

You can't say that your predictions of the future are the same as notifications of who is in business and who is not. I'm talking about news, not Dave S.'s opinions. If you would have KNOWN when they DID give up, you would have announced it. No, we in our collective ignorance were talking about these companies for a year as though they were still in business.

Also, please realize one thing: No opinion on this forum DEFINES any truth, it is just opinions. Your opinions of my machines come from a place of no understanding, as far as I can see. Starting with the fact that you address a small subset of my ideas and remain fixated on one aspect, of one type of machine, that you claim can't work, though it has been amply demonstrated to work fine, and ending with the fact that there are easy ways to do AWE that have nothing to do with anything you or I have mentioned on this list and nobody is stumbling across them.

There would be no point in continually debating you about my machines. What you think does not define what works. They work without your permission and will continue to do so. I feel no compulsion to answer your diatribes because most of what you write makes no sense at all.

Dave: I just want to to take a solid LOOK at what you have written.
You say I am QUITE MISTAKEN that this forum missed the failures of Magenn and Joby. I would like you to either apologize, or show me where these actual failure (not your predictions) were announced in a timely manner.

Thank you.
Doug S.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6920 From: dbmurr@ymail.com Date: 9/4/2012
Subject: Re: Flying a glider like a kite?
Or aerostats...? This design direction by Gherasim Lucian may behave well when tethered for stunt flying. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6921 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/4/2012
Subject: Re: Airships
Thanks, Bob. 

So, will hydrogen under modern controls make a comeback in LTA and LTA AWES?

One method of LTA AWES that is in file: 
Tether blimp; use aloft turbines just for pumping air in and out of the air balloonets; during the rise of the blimp (after pumping air out of the balloonets) have the tether drive grounded generator. Then in non-production phase, again let the lofted pumping wind turbine add air into the balloonets to cause a dropping of the blimp.   Then repeat the cycle.   Advanced envelopes may make hydrogen recharge a trivial matter; and aloft manufacture of hydrogen from atmospheric moisture via use of sun might be adequate. Experts in LTA might run the numbers and post.     Work high.  Rise above storms, as needed?   Make things automatic. Sensors will feed control center with status of all parts. 

~JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6922 From: Doug Date: 9/4/2012
Subject: Re: Flying a hang-glider like a kite - manned kites?
I googled "Fly a glider like a kite" and I came up with my own posting (this posting). Like a dog chasing its tail. Google is nice but not when it always leads back to my own postings of the same questions.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6923 From: Bob Stuart Date: 9/4/2012
Subject: Re: Airships
Hydrogen, despite its problems, seems to be the only sustainable, responsible option.  At least now we know that it was the nitrocellulose dope on the outside of the Hindenberg that started the disaster in NJ.  An aerostat with a flygen might leak less greenhouse gas than a diesel generator for the same output, but the future may demand zero GHG emissions.

Bob

On 4-Sep-12, at 10:13 AM, Joe Faust wrote:
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6924 From: dave santos Date: 9/4/2012
Subject: Reminding Doug How Well the Forum Tracks Stealth-Players
Doug,

This is as good as it gets as far as the Forum "announcing" a Magenn failure. Stealth VCs hardly are going to announce failure on this Forum, so complain to them, not to us-
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6925 From: Doug Date: 9/4/2012
Subject: Re: Airships
Igor's Aeros company is right down the street from my old headquarters. Aeros has been issuing such press-releases for many years. I've talked with them a few times over those years. You get a distinct "Professor Crackpot" feel from them, if you do talk to them. Keyword: "Igor". Like Moller's flying car, they are always "a year or two out" from producing the product. Their minions contacted me right before WindPower 2011 in Anaheim, and really had me going for awhile - they had a booth at WindPower 2011 advertising their blimps to (someday, just not right now) lift and transport wind turbines, but hours of discussions revealed that, to me, they're on the perpetual all-talk format, at least in relation to airborne wind energy.
~wa ~wa ~wa...
Dan'l how are those spiral airfoils working lately?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6926 From: dave santos Date: 9/4/2012
Subject: Rebutting Doug on Key Points
Doug wrote font-family:Georgia;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"> contenders. Eventually, hot kite-planes will do well. There does not seem to be only one winning idea. Prepare yourself for new windmill progress disclosures.


experimental ethic.

Get ready for a lot of new disclosure of recent major experiments. If you also show tangible progress to add to your ongoing written claims, we all would be really happy. 

Please Cc: me until the blocked mail puzzle is resolved.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6927 From: Robert Copcutt Date: 9/4/2012
Subject: Re: Airships
On Tue, 2012-09-04 at 09:13 -0700, Joe Faust wrote:
I have. LTA has no prospect of making a useful contribution to AWE. When
the wind is fast enough to make it economical to generate power the lift
from a wing (kite) far exceeds that of a balloon.

Robert.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6928 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/4/2012
Subject: Re: Vast Meshes of Small Caged Gerbils?
CerberusTech saying yes-yes or no-no:the past of energy.

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6929 From: dave santos Date: 9/4/2012
Subject: Re: Airships
Robert wrote- "LTA has no prospect of making a useful contribution to AWE"

LTA tech has already made nice contributions to AWE. Some examples-
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6930 From: Robert Copcutt Date: 9/4/2012
Subject: Re: Airships
On Tue, 2012-09-04 at 12:40 -0700, dave santos wrote:
Really? I bet none have produced useful quantities of power.
The kytoons I remember were all heavier than air. They just used an
inflated structure to improve aerodynamics and/or strength. Air inflated
structures (as most kytoons are) do have a future in AWE. Putting light
gases in them is a waste of time.
It would have been cheaper and more effective to use a kite. If the wind
is not strong enough to lift a kite it is not worth lifting an energy
generator of any sort.
Still too expensive to be useful.
Maybe there are lessons to be learned but the key to effective progress
is to learn those lessons quickly and to move on.

Robert.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6931 From: Robert Copcutt Date: 9/4/2012
Subject: Re: Joby Energy no more...
On Tue, 2012-09-04 at 14:11 +0000, Doug wrote:

One of the team who connected Magenn with the money men was one of my
LinkedIn contacts. I announced here that he committed suicide earlier
this year. It is unlikely the failure of Magenn was by any means his
only problem but it probably contributed. Yet another LinkedIn member
was asking for money for Magenn only last month. Fishy.

Robert.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6932 From: dave santos Date: 9/4/2012
Subject: Re: Airships
Robert,

The specific KiteLab Portland finding for early LTA-initiated cascade launch (with a single party balloon) was this- That when a common surface inversion pushes prevailing wind into an nicely accelerated  LLJ a few hundred feet up (just as even Pocock noted), that the helium balloon with a kite surface was able to get up to the LLJ and initiate flight far earlier (hours even) than waiting for the LLJ to dip. No instance or combination of tow-launched pilot-lifter or RC copter, etc.. was found to be so simple and cheap to initiate "Early Launch". Please explain how this finding is in error.

Vintage Barrage Balloon tech usefully models AWE Array infrastructure (design qualities like high-airspace density), but without making useful energy. You will miss any such lessons if insisting that only intentional power production counts. We also know these barrage arrays dissipated excess energy by "hunting" motions in high wind, and also that they could host WECS in principle.

A Kytoon does presume lifitng gas and Wikipedia gets it exactly right- "A kytoon (a portmanteau of kite + balloon) is a kite with a significant amount of aerostatic lift from a lighter than air gas carried within."

That giant kites get a solar boost is not in itself a high cost, but an unexpected (by Peter Lynn and his fans) side effect of size. Size implies economies-of-scale, so the solar boost may best correlate with savings, not cost. 

You concluded- " Maybe there are lessons to be learned but the key to effective progress
is to learn those lessons quickly and to move on."

Agreed, but first we have to get from your position of "maybe" lessons to real lessons, and then move forward. I may not have learned LTA fast enough by your "quickly" standard, but did get decades of headstart, at least,


daveS
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6933 From: edoishi Date: 9/4/2012
Subject: Mothra at WSIKF
Here's MOTHRA shaking off hundreds of pounds of sand in ~20mph winds at the Washington State International Kite Festival:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_OjGF34FvA

Ground crew: Rae Bohn, 2 Kite Sam Mundell, Dave Santos, and Ed Sapir (video)
Thanks to Chase Honaker of Util for video edits.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6934 From: Doug Date: 9/5/2012
Subject: Re: Joby Energy no more... linkedin
Robert:
I just finished being "invited" to "connect" with one more person on Linked-in. I do not expect to ever know anything about this person, or ever have a message back and forth. I know nothing about them and never will. They just want to "connect" - fine, we are now "connected" - whatever - like anyone can't e-mail me anytime they want? Like they can't look me up and vice-versa?
Hey Doug "Some Random Name" wants to "connect" - wuddup bro?

Linked-in also has "discussions" about wind energy - I'm always being notified, but the people in these discussions know even less than the people here, about wind energy - nothing - at least people here are familiar with the concept, and a few actually know something about it.

The average person has no concept of wind energy other than they heard about a bird issue - that's it. The average new wind energy would-be inventor, with a slow machine that won't do anything is similarly fixated with birds as a fallback position, or last desperate attempt to rationalize the design.

After even hanging out with the CEO, Jeff Weiner, at Techonomy 2010
I've been finding Linked-in to be a complete waste of time. My first bad impression of it was back when people would contact me wanting to get something going, and so I would Google them to see what accomplishments I might find.

I'd notice that the only info that came up on most people was their own Linked-in page - like filling out the linked-in forms was their best accomplishment in life and the only thing they were known for. As soon as I saw that I'd usually not waste any more time on them.

Have a Windy Day (except in your office)
:)
Doug S.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6935 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/5/2012
Subject: UAV education
http://www.uxvuniversity.com

How will they integrate AWES into their program?
Generic?
[ ]     Maybe AWEIA could write a letter to the university's president. 

The university is in the business of attracting students
and then preparing them for service in the UAV sphere. 

Coming AWES   UAV farms will employ several kinds of UAVs
besides the dominate AWES complex. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6936 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/5/2012
Subject: Re: UAV education
In their contact form was sent this note as a start: 
==============================
AWES will be using multiple kinds of UAVs. 
We posted your site's link in the new industries primary tech public forum at the message
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/AirborneWindEnergy/message/6935
Please alert your president of this new and advancing arena.   
==============================
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6937 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/5/2012
Subject: Happy news regarding SpiralAirfoil
A turbine slated to have its niche AWES play
as well as its towered dance is 
SpiralAirfoil: 
Patent has been approved:  HERE 

Group member, Dan Parker, 
Congratulations!
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6938 From: Robert Copcutt Date: 9/5/2012
Subject: Re: Joby Energy no more... linkedin
Doug,

Like many things springing up on the internet (including this group) we
need to experiment to find out how to best use them. Some LinkedIn
groups are a waste of time. Others have discussions well worth
following. It is a good medium for connecting with other people,
particularly for jobs. I was really impressed by the knowledge of some
of the people on a Fuel Cell group I joined. The "Wind Energy
Professionals" group is far better than the "Wind Power Expert" group
for instance. I like to judge people by the quality of their posts
rather than what Google drags up about them. Some people are busy in the
real world and/or private, and do not boast of their many achievements
online.

Robert.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6939 From: Robert Copcutt Date: 9/5/2012
Subject: Re: Airships
Dave,

It seems to me that these LLJ's you speak of are rare. If the wind near
ground level is not strong enough to lift a kite (without anything heavy
on it like a generator) then the wind at altitude is also unlikely to
have enough power to be worth bothering with.

Learning from all types of past experience is fine as long as we do not
waste time on it. As Doug has repeatedly pointed out, we are in danger
of being nothing but a talk shop that makes no real progress. I want to
generate power from the wind. Having assessed LTA I have come to the
conclusion that it is time to move on. LTA lifts things when the wind is
too weak to achieve anything. On the other hand when the wind is too
strong it gets in the way making landing the kite difficult. When the
wind is in the middle, at useful speeds, other systems cost less.

Robert.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6940 From: dave santos Date: 9/5/2012
Subject: LLJs Not Rare! //Re: [AWES] Re: Airships
Robert, you wrote- "It seems to me that these LLJ's you speak of are rare. "

LLJs (Low Level Jets- a low-altitude sheet of accelerated wind) are in fact a normal part of wind patterns in most all of the world. They occur very commonly just above the nightime inversion layer caused by radiative land cooling, starting at dusk, whereby the prevailing wind is pushed up and picks up speed. The inversion layer generally deepens overnight, and the overlaid LLJ then can end up quite high (~300-600m or more) by dawn. LLJs occur by other common conditions as well. They often mean the difference between useful windpower and futility. Often you must descend into them, noting them by small deflections appearing in the kiteline.

Wayne German and Cristina Archer brought this wonderful resource to Forum attention back arounf '09, a finding based on decades of meteorological data. KiteLab then documented LLJs with kites over the last few years: Its an extremely common and useful phenomenon, and If you fly kites with attention you will confirm this yourself.

The problem is how you get a kite array up into the LLJ in the morning, instead of waiting as it slowly descends (Early Start). The neat trick of using a winged party-balloon kytoon to initiate a cascaded early launch instead of a powered UAV is still worth consideration, though you somehow disagree. You seem not to allow, without explainion, that a very tiny bit of LTA can "catalyze"  the enhanced production of an entire farm array.

You write- "Learning from all types of past experience is fine as long as we do not waste time on it. As Doug has repeatedly pointed out, we are in danger of being nothing but a talk shop that makes no real progress. "

What a lecture. I don't see the danger, but you are right about what sort of advice Doug relentlessly repeats. Lets eagerly await your and Doug's "real progress" in AWE, especially based on not having wasted time "learning from all types of past experience" (as, sadly, many of us have :)  ),

daveS
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6941 From: dave santos Date: 9/5/2012
Subject: Re: UAV education
JoeF,

At this point there is scant direct overlap with military-industrial UAV circles and open low-complexity AWE R&D. We will share airspace that the FAA assigns us, but deep gaps in cultural values tend to divide us. Of course, military AWEs developers should have no problem playing along. Many of us will engage the UAV go-go world as skeptics and critics.

This "University" makes a false claim at the top of its home page- "First UAV Flight School in the World!". KiteLab's Kite Pilot School is older, and surely not first either. The AMA, for one, has conducted flight schooling for decades.

As of today, some dozen or so great folks have "graduated" basic Kite Pilot School coursework; gaining basic knowledge and practice of AWES and aviation safety. Its been very informal- except for the mastery of core principles required,

daveS

Cat I & 2 sUAS AWE Training (Kite Pilot School) - Yahoo! Groups

tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/AirborneWindEnergy/message/1343
Mar 17, 2010 – KiteLab Group is now registering students for its experimental Cat 1 sUASAWE Training Course (Kite Pilot School). This is combined Cat 1 PIC ...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6942 From: John Oyebanji Date: 9/5/2012
Subject: Fw: Clean Energy Events Listing 5th September: Canada, India, UK & U
John Adeoye Oyebanji;
CEO, Hardensoft International
President-protem, Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association - AWEIA International
From: REEEP Newsletter <news@reeep.org
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 18:53:23 +0000 (UTC)
To: <hardensoftintl@yahoo.com 9th Call for Proposals

REEEP Header Header
Wednesday
September 5, 2012

REEEP Notification

Dear Friends of REEEP,

Lots of Calls in this week's Events Listing: our own, a sustainable energy research call from the UK, and the launch of the 2013 Ashden Awards. There are some events in here too, in London, New Delhi, San Francisco and Toronto.

Just in case you haven't already heard: REEEP's 9th Call for Project Proposals is now open with €4.1 million available for ‘tipping point’ proposals in five key thematic areas. They are: scaling up successful business models, supporting off-grid generation, harnessing the benefits of clean energy in both food production and in reliable water supply, and opening up energy data in emerging markets. Businesses, project developers, governments, regulators and development institutions are all encouraged to apply. To apply go to http://call4proposals.reeep.org/ to read more and download further info including details of the priority countries.

Last call (not one of the calls)

Last call for the first event: REFF London is next week. Finance and investment types will be gathering on 12-13 Sept in London, UK to discuss the facts about financing renewables.

Oh, just one more then (still not a call)

Is the financing situation easier across the pond? I guess the simple answer is no, but here you can read one of the founding members of Renewable Social Benefit Funds (RSB Funds)'s views on how innovation in financing mechanisms can restart stalled Solar PV projects. Find out more about what new thinking is going on at the 5th Renewable Energy Finance Forum – West taking place on September 27 & 28 in San Francisco, USA.

The scale of the energy access challenge

74% of Indian villages were electrified as of 2005, but only 55% of rural households had access to electricity and the remaining 45% of the households were depending on kerosene lamps for lighting. Also in 2005, about 84% of rural households still depended on biomass for their cooking energy needs. This is the equivalent of about 364 million people relying on kerosene for lighting and about 726 million relying on biomass for cooking out of a total rural population of about 809 million in 2005 (figures from here, based on NSSO, 2007).

Thus, a major challenge for India is to bridge this access gap in modern energy services both for cooking and for lighting. The Government of India's Ministry of New and Renewable Energy is organising an International Seminar on Energy Access, 9-10 Oct, New Delhi, India, envisaged as an international platform for Government, private sector, and non-governmental leaders to jointly address the goal of achieving sustainable energy access.

Back to school... efficiently

My nephew started his new school today. He looked very smart in his uniform. But you won't have to wear a uniform to receive intensive instruction on RETScreen's Energy Efficiency Project Model from the development team who produced it: RETScreen 201 - Energy Efficiency Project Analysis, is on 16-18 Oct, at the York University - Faculty of Environmental Studies in Toronto, Canada.

Sustainable Energy Awards

Are you at the top of your game in sustainable energy, increasing access to energy, saving energy or generating renewable forms of energy supply? Are you encouraging more sustainable forms of living or low-carbon travel? If so, you might want to apply for an Ashden Award. They have cash prizes as well as support to expand your work even further, substantial media coverage and access to new networks. Prizes start at £5,000, with Gold Award winners to receive between £20,000 and £40,000.

For the UK and International Awards they want to hear from sustainable energy pioneers making progress in transforming peoples’ lives through sustainable energy, saving energy, generating renewable energy or promoting behaviour change. More info at: http://www.ashden.org/apply; it would be great if one of our readers won one!

About those calls, then...

Up to £12.5 million will be available under the Understanding Sustainable Energy Solutions in Developing Countries research call, from the UK Research Councils’ Energy programme, the UK Department for International Development (DFID) and the Department for Energy and Climate Change (DECC).

They are initially asking for expressions of interest from organisations who wish to bid under the call. Successful organisations will be invited to take part in a short development workshop in Nairobi, to refine the priority research challenges around energy in the context of international development and help facilitate collaborative bids.

The closing date for expressions of interest is Friday 28th September 2012 and the organisers are particularly keen that researchers from developing countries submit expressions of interest, including those from recognised research institutions, or other not-for-profit or private sector organisations with a credible and relevant research capacity.

More details and application form can be found at:
http://www.epsrc.ac.uk/funding/calls/open/Pages/energyandinternationaldevelopment.aspx

Call for innovative financial products & services in Asia-Pacific

The Climate Finance Innovation Facility (CFIF) has announced its 3rd Call for Proposals, inviting applications from financial institutions based in developing countries of the Asia-Pacific region who are seeking support in setting up innovative financial products, programmes or services for the low carbon energy sectors such as renewable energy and energy efficiency. The aim of the facility is to catalyze new investment into these sectors by helping first movers in the finance community to develop new products that have replication potential across markets and geographies.

The selection procedure consists of a two-step application process. In the first step, applicants are requested to submit a concept note using the application form that can be downloaded from http://climate-finance.org

Deadline for first stage applications is 30 September 2012.

It's my birthday tomorrow (I'll be 42, before you ask) but I'll try to stop celebrating in time to bring you more events news in two weeks time.

James Smith, REEEP Community Facilitator

Publisher:
Renewable Energy and Energy Efficiency Partnership (ZVR-Number: 928296155)
Wagramerstrasse 5 , A - 1400 Vienna, Austria
Phone: +43 1 26026-3425, Email: info@reeep.org

If you do not want to receive any more emails from REEEP please log-in on the website (http://www.reeep.org) and deactivate your account or contact james.smith@reeep.org
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6943 From: Doug Date: 9/5/2012
Subject: Re: Reminding Doug How Well the Forum Tracks Stealth-Players
Dear Dave S.
Yup the ridiculous designs target ridiculous customers, such as a Mayan Village. 100% symptomatic of our ubiquitous friend, Professor Crackpot, who can always be relied upon to target a remote village for his drag-based white elephant. The remote village serves to suggest we all take a dream-trip to fantasy-land, to distract anyone from asking about actual performance.

Sure, your turbine is worthless in developed places, so target someplace so improbable it will never happen and you can go on forever talking smack with no requirement for any results. You can just sort of imply that the lack of a product is a result of the lack of sophistication of your identified customer. This stuff is so silly you can't make it up!

Starting with a silly design, everything Magenn ever said was silly. Well the funny thing is, for the people who know anything, they already knew Magenn was a joke - for everyone else, who cares?

Regarding posts not appearing in your inbox - try checking your spam box. I've had a lot of AWE postings end up in my spam box. Maybe G-mail knows something I don't.

:)
Doug S.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6944 From: Doug Date: 9/5/2012
Subject: Re: Joby Energy no more...
Robert:
Wow I've wasted huge sums on wind energy at this point too. Half of it is the actual resources wasted, the other half is what I could have accomplished in the meantime.
Oh and the third half is the amount of time I've spent on the web talkin' about it. Did I ever tell you how good at fractions I am?

Hearing that the typical lies of a Magenn could actually have contributed to someone offing themselves makes the joke of Magenn not so funny. Lies can hurt people.

The lack of seriousness of ARPA-E is also cause for concern - almost as though there is a built-in rule that no matter how much money one wants to put toward advanced renewable energy, there can be absolutely no progress or product resulting from that squandered cash.

If any of these bozos were serious and really believed in the nascent technology, and thought there was a global weather emergency, they would be throwing money at anyone who was a player. Instead they fund those who are gullible enough to waste all their time putting together reams of lies so when they fail the bureaucrats will have an excuse and hopefully not get fired.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6945 From: dave santos Date: 9/5/2012
Subject: Fw: NASA AWE Promo Video

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6946 From: dave santos Date: 9/5/2012
Subject: Improved Pumping from Two Anchors for Persistent Flight
Earlier today i was able to keep a toy Delta Kite (Gayla Sky Spy) flying by towing it in brief cycles back and forth between two spread anchors. The back of the kite was bridled just like the front and the kite simply "back-flipped" faces at each end of travel.

This is improved short cycle two-phase pumping, without an earlier problem of reliably "turning the corner". Last year effective three-phase pumping was demonstrated in public (WKM Windless Kite Festival). The latest design is further evidence that persistent flight is simple and practical by pumping inputs from the ground, for AWES and other applications. Video and a public demo pending.

High value persistent flight was long considered one of the hardest problems in aerospace, but its not. Thanks to the AWES Forum for helping solve real world challenges by freely shared knowledge.

coolIP
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6947 From: John Oyebanji Date: 9/5/2012
Subject: Re: Reminding Doug How Well the Forum Tracks Stealth-Players
DaveS & Doug;
I suggest you add AirborneWindEnergy@yahoo.com to your contacts list. That, I believe should get all posts from the forum into your inbox.
Best lifts,
JohnO
John Adeoye Oyebanji;
CEO, Hardensoft International
President-protem, Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association - AWEIA International
From: "Doug" <doug@selsam.com
Sender: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2012 21:35:22 -0000
To: <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AWES] Re: Reminding Doug How Well the Forum Tracks Stealth-Players

 

Dear Dave S.
Yup the ridiculous designs target ridiculous customers, such as a Mayan Village. 100% symptomatic of our ubiquitous friend, Professor Crackpot, who can always be relied upon to target a remote village for his drag-based white elephant. The remote village serves to suggest we all take a dream-trip to fantasy-land, to distract anyone from asking about actual performance.

Sure, your turbine is worthless in developed places, so target someplace so improbable it will never happen and you can go on forever talking smack with no requirement for any results. You can just sort of imply that the lack of a product is a result of the lack of sophistication of your identified customer. This stuff is so silly you can't make it up!

Starting with a silly design, everything Magenn ever said was silly. Well the funny thing is, for the people who know anything, they already knew Magenn was a joke - for everyone else, who cares?

Regarding posts not appearing in your inbox - try checking your spam box. I've had a lot of AWE postings end up in my spam box. Maybe G-mail knows something I don't.

:)
Doug S.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6948 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 9/6/2012
Subject: Airborne Seaborne Wind Energy System

It seems there is a problem.The rotor-wheel (http://youtu.be/2o4KBW8oqCs ) acting  the  floating station-generators,takes also a counter torque on the side due to braking effect of generators.

I look after a light solution.

Thanks,

PierreB

http://wheelwind.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6949 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/6/2012
Subject: Re: Airborne Seaborne Wind Energy System


It seems there is a problem.The rotor-wheel (http://youtu.be/2o4KBW8oqCs ) acting  the  floating station-generators,takes also a counter torque and goes to the side due to braking effect of generators.Light solutions?Second temporary vertical anchoring of station? 

 

PierreB

 

http://wheelwind.com





Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6950 From: Bob Stuart Date: 9/6/2012
Subject: Re: Airborne Seaborne Wind Energy System
I assumed that the forces would balance with the generator displaced 10 to 20 degrees off downwind of the anchor.  If necessary, another kite could be flown to one side, to provide a reaction force.

Bob Stuart

On 6-Sep-12, at 1:16 AM, Pierre Benhaiem wrote:
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6951 From: roderickjosephread Date: 9/6/2012
Subject: Re: Airborne Seaborne Wind Energy System
you could actively adjust the tether tensions on each side of the wheel
by offsetting the tether rail...
e.g.
Run the tether attachment points around on an offset rail on the
floating tether...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6952 From: roderickjosephread Date: 9/6/2012
Subject: Re: Airborne Seaborne Wind Energy System
Also like Bob said...
use a lifting kite / kytoon to offset the wheel from higher and downwind...
a further advantage of this would be a assisted launch.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6953 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/6/2012
Subject: Re: Airborne Seaborne Wind Energy System


Thank you Rod,thank you Bob,

 

For the moment I have not made trials,but someone has done the (certainly pertinent,torus directly acting wheels of generators) remark I submit now to AWE experts.In fact the station-generators is like ball bearing as ring surrounding (not completely because of blade passage) the section of rolling torus.

 

By simplification the station is like a pulley acting the torus rolling on.

 

Suspentes (tethers) link the torus to the anchoring via the mast and the mast cable (same chain of force).The cable of the station obliquely links said station to the same anchoring.

 

Among solutions I receive a second contra-rotating rotor linking a second station providing counter torque.But this solution is too heavy.Another solution was supplementary anchors,but also it is a heavy solution,morever forbidding orientation according wind directions.

 

In fact I have not even sure it is a problem since wind force can be (?) enough to prevent the torus rolling on the side;beside an angular shape of station could be enough (???) to prevent the same by working as drift.

 

So I am studying your solutions,and maybe others.

 

PierreB 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6954 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/6/2012
Subject: Re: Airborne Seaborne Wind Energy System

"By simplification the station is like a pulley acting the torus rolling on."

 

More simple and correct:the torus rolls (runs) on the pulley acting generator.

 

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6955 From: Doug Date: 9/6/2012
Subject: Re: Airborne Seaborne Wind Energy System
I'd build a small model to power your house. You could speculate all day, every day, how it "should" work, but only building one and running it will tell how it "does" work. Make sure you have a plan for overspeed protection or it will be ripped apart when the wind gets strong.
:)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6956 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/6/2012
Subject: Re: Airborne Seaborne Wind Energy System

"I'd build a small model to power your house." It is the solution to see if it works but it is not so easy (and even impossible) if the concept is not correct before putting generator.So for the moment I will try with a wheel of bicycle,appropriate blades inside.I put tethers on the wheel I hold with one hand.I put a rolling ring (surrounding the wheel) on the ground where a tether goes to my other hand.

 

If the wheel stays downwind by acting the ring,it is good (at least for the moment).If the wheel turns arround me with the "ground station",it is bad.After two possibilities:the solution is light,I pursue.The solution is like a device + a device + a device etc.I stop it.

 

I go tomorrow to Dieppe Festival and I can present only kite and turbine (FlygenKite) or both this and ASWES (WheelWind) but with doubts.

 

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6958 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/6/2012
Subject: Re: Improved Pumping from Two Anchors for Persistent Flight
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6959 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/6/2012
Subject: Re: Airborne Seaborne Wind Energy System
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6960 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/6/2012
Subject: Ecomagination == PR article for AWES
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6961 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/6/2012
Subject: Re: Airborne Seaborne Wind Energy System

Fine!

 

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6962 From: dave santos Date: 9/6/2012
Subject: WIshing PierreB Well at Dieppe, the World's Most Prestigious Kite Fe
Cher PierreD

Nous vous souhaitons un très agréable séjour à Dieppe. Vous serez "le sommet de l'iceberg" de l'AWE là. S'il vous plaît dites les planificateurs de Dieppe 2014 que nous avons tous envie de venir. Peut-être le thème pour 2014 devrait être de l'énergie éolienne par cerf-volant. Ensuite, nous avons beaucoup de systèmes étonnants de montrer au monde. 


Bon voyage!

daveS
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6963 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/6/2012
Subject: Re: WIshing PierreB Well at Dieppe, the World's Most Prestigious Kit

DaveS,

 

Thank you for wishing.Unfortunately I have only small prototypes,and maybe another promising scheme (ASWES),at least the idea to mix AWES with conventional wind turbine,but it is very little.I hope to return at this Festival or another but this time with something heavy in my luggages.

 

Effectively a complete AWE delegation would be more visible,above all with a working prototype 7/7 12/12 year after year,like DougS says often,and also makes.

 

For festivals your Mothra is very attractive as new axis of search about kite and huge force,a second floor like JoeF says.

 

 

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6964 From: dave santos Date: 9/6/2012
Subject: Proving Mothra-Tech Capabilities in Water, Snow, (and Sand)
Mothra1 shows an amazing ability to lift itself from under a great over-burden, like wet-sand. Its expected it will also progressively launch from water, if just the nose floats above the surface to initiate inflation. Similarly, if covered with snow, Mothra can launch anyway. KiteLab established in 2008 that soft kites shed ice by natural flexing. Conventional aircraft wings, of course, must be pre-swept of snow and/or deiced by more complex means.

A Mothra demonstration launch from water is being planned and will be attempted as opportunity presents. Anchors will be set during low-tide, the incoming tide* will cover the kite, which will then be launched. The anchors will be recovered when the tide retreats. Perhaps someday offshore AWES will rest underwater during calm, launch like breeching whales, and need seasonal scrubbing of algae and barnacles.

Pure submerged operation of Mothra technology in currents is another realm to explore. Rope and rags are far less bothered by submarine conditions than more-complex systems.

coolIP

* the tidal flux runs 2-3m here in Ilwaco, WA
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6965 From: dbmurr@ymail.com Date: 9/6/2012
Subject: Re: Super sparkle
John,
This work by Todd Bracher may help with the sparkle idea... (2 links)

http://toddbracher.net/#lightfalls-3m-2012

http://www.designboom.com/weblog/cat/8/view/21463/virtual-led-technology\
-lightfalls-by-3m-todd-bracher-at-ny-design-week.html
DaveB


--- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, "John Oyebanji"
<hardensoftintl@... International
to
earth's