Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                                AWES6763to6813 Page 33 of 440.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6763 From: harry valentine Date: 8/11/2012
Subject: Re: More Idiots

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6764 From: Bob Stuart Date: 8/11/2012
Subject: Re: More Idiots

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6765 From: harry valentine Date: 8/11/2012
Subject: Re: blades, birds and insects

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6766 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/11/2012
Subject: (no subject)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6768 From: dave santos Date: 8/12/2012
Subject: Re: More Idiots

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6769 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 8/13/2012
Subject: Bladeless

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6770 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 8/13/2012
Subject: Re: Bladeless (correction)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6771 From: Doug Date: 8/13/2012
Subject: Re: More Idiots

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6772 From: Doug Date: 8/13/2012
Subject: Re: Blade(clue)less (correction)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6773 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/13/2012
Subject: Saphonian as inverse loudspeaker

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6774 From: harry valentine Date: 8/13/2012
Subject: Re: Saphonian "Baldeless" Wind Technology

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6775 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 8/13/2012
Subject: Re: Saphonian "Baldeless" Wind Technology

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6776 From: Bob Stuart Date: 8/13/2012
Subject: Re: Saphonian "Baldeless" Wind Technology

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6777 From: harry valentine Date: 8/13/2012
Subject: Re: Saphonian "Baldeless" Wind Technology

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6778 From: Darin Selby Date: 8/13/2012
Subject: Re: Saphonian "Baldeless" Wind Technology

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6779 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/13/2012
Subject: Augmented-reality rope lets you team up to fly a kite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6780 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/13/2012
Subject: Re: Saphonian as inverse loudspeaker

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6781 From: dave santos Date: 8/13/2012
Subject: Re: Saphonian "Baldeless" Wind Technology

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6782 From: Doug Date: 8/14/2012
Subject: Re: Saphonian "Baldeless" Wind Technology

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6783 From: dave santos Date: 8/14/2012
Subject: Makani ARPA-E Contract in Review //End-to-End Session Issue

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6784 From: Doug Date: 8/14/2012
Subject: Re: Saphonian "Baldeless" Wind Technology

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6785 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/14/2012
Subject: Re: Saphonian as inverse loudspeaker

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6786 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/14/2012
Subject: Re: Saphonian as inverse loudspeaker

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6787 From: Theo Schmidt Date: 8/14/2012
Subject: Re: Drag versus lift devices

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6788 From: Doug Date: 8/15/2012
Subject: Re: Makani ARPA-E Contract in Review //End-to-End Session Issue

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6789 From: Doug Date: 8/15/2012
Subject: Re: Drag versus lift devices

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6790 From: Dave Lang Date: 8/15/2012
Subject: Re: Drag versus lift devices

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6791 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 8/15/2012
Subject: Re: Drag versus lift devices

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6792 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/15/2012
Subject: GV Demidov

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6793 From: Doug Date: 8/15/2012
Subject: woops I got another patent...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6794 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/16/2012
Subject: Re: woops I got another patent...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6795 From: Doug Date: 8/16/2012
Subject: Interview with Corwin Hardham of Makani

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6796 From: roderickjosephread Date: 8/16/2012
Subject: Re: woops I got another patent...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6797 From: Doug Date: 8/16/2012
Subject: Re: woops I got another patent...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6798 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/17/2012
Subject: System for high altitude tethered powered flight platform

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6799 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/19/2012
Subject: Super sparkle

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6800 From: John Oyebanji Date: 8/20/2012
Subject: Re: Super sparkle

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6801 From: dave santos Date: 8/20/2012
Subject: Mothra1 Tour Update

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6802 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/20/2012
Subject: Re: Mothra1 Tour Update

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6803 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/21/2012
Subject: AWEC plans a meeting in September

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6804 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/21/2012
Subject: Hall of Fame at WKM

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6805 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/21/2012
Subject: Lloyd Biscomb with WIPO patent under PCT, priority 1979

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6806 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/21/2012
Subject: Traction: Testing in August 2012

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6807 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/21/2012
Subject: Re: Omega Sails

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6808 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/21/2012
Subject: Shy not ...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6809 From: dave santos Date: 8/21/2012
Subject: Open Letter to PJ (AWEC) //Re: [AWES] AWEC plans a meeting in Septe

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6810 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/21/2012
Subject: Large kite arch at WSIKF on August 20, 2012

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6811 From: Rod Read Date: 8/21/2012
Subject: Re: Large kite arch at WSIKF on August 20, 2012

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6812 From: PJ Shepard Date: 8/21/2012
Subject: Re: Open Letter to PJ (AWEC) //Re: [AWES] AWEC plans a meeting in Se

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6813 From: roderickjosephread Date: 8/22/2012
Subject: Open Letter to PJ (AWEC) //Re: [AWES] AWEC plans a meeting in Septem




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6763 From: harry valentine Date: 8/11/2012
Subject: Re: More Idiots
Like Dyson's "bladeless" fan technology, Saphon's "bladeless" wind power technology will not chop up birds, or create air pressure zones that will disorient them and cause them to fall to the ground. 


Harry


To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 14:19:25 +0000
Subject: [AWES] Re: More Idiots

 

See the motion of the drag body at 3'5'' on  www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdcmShRcyfk  that the patent WO201209688 (with a good search report without x or y) indicates as "circulate sattelite movement". Behind the drag body there is also a reel with... small blades which surround the drag body.The blades  are not schown on other pictures,and are maybe put off as not essential or ... bad for the definition of a turbine without blades. 
If I am yet nastier than DougS [In fact Doug is not nasty but realistic most of the time,and probably gives a better way for AWE by indicating like autogiro scheme as link between wind turbine and aviation],I could think wind energy on the blades produces body movement.
But I prefer thinking patent from Saphon describes a new method as drag device to produce conversion with some interesting elements of conversion like hydraulic installation [see also OrthokiteBunch where hydraulic installation works from movements of big amplitude compared with the limited movement of drag body implying probably a low efficiency in conversion],which could be studied and implemented for AWE at the same time as a "circulate sattelite motion" but with enough amplitude.
The ideas in this patent have probably a better possible outlet in AWE since some mechanic elements allowing "circulate sattelite movement" could be put off. 
"Circulate sattelite motion" is a little like DaveS' short strokes.If it is the case and if a good drag conversion system is found a low efficient system can become a high efficient system where low cost great area like arch is implemented.
PierreB   
 

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6764 From: Bob Stuart Date: 8/11/2012
Subject: Re: More Idiots
The air pressure zones don't directly disorient birds, it is lung damage that gets them.  The blades do disorient insects, so birds come to hunt them.  Purple paint is one way to make them fairly stealthy to bugs.

Bob Stuart

On 11-Aug-12, at 8:47 AM, harry valentine wrote:


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6765 From: harry valentine Date: 8/11/2012
Subject: Re: blades, birds and insects
Thanks Bob,


Perhaps there is a case for designing wind turbines that disorient insects and would otherwise be harmless to birds. In places like Thailand, locusts are a delicacy in the restaurant trade. 
 
Harry


To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: bobstuart@sasktel.net
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 09:05:36 -0600
Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: More Idiots

 
The air pressure zones don't directly disorient birds, it is lung damage that gets them.  The blades do disorient insects, so birds come to hunt them.  Purple paint is one way to make them fairly stealthy to bugs.

Bob Stuart

On 11-Aug-12, at 8:47 AM, harry valentine wrote:



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6766 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/11/2012
Subject: (no subject)
http://www.appliedmicrodesign.com/absolutenm/templates/template_products.asp?articleid=16&zoneid=6
Kindred control teams?
"AMDI has developed an Airborne Guidance Unit (AGU) for Para-Flite Incorporated,"

AGU is a KCU or KSU  for kite in gliding mode.   Are we reinventing the wheel?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6768 From: dave santos Date: 8/12/2012
Subject: Re: More Idiots
The Saphonian is not "complete unadulterated balderdash", as Doug thinks, nor is it a direct competitor to modern HAWTs. Its cool and inventive, if fringey. The operating dynamics are closely related to some exotic AWES concepts for non-rotating WECS, as discussed on this forum.
 
Its basic principle is unsteady-aerodynamics cleverly applied to a Frisbee-style airfoil. It does not really challenge Betz if you recognize the entire disc swept by the smaller disc of the sail itself. Its not inherently a drag-based concept either, although this early prototype is clearly draggy. Remember that maximum energy out of a WECS, in max rated wind, involves a lower L/D compared to max efficiency in midrange rated wind.
 
The Saphonian's wobble is not a true "knot-path" in knot-theory. Its phasing frequency directly corresponds to a low tip-speed-ratio turbine, so its closest working relatives are slow high-torque turbines used for pumping. An obvious burden and scaling-wall on the design is the rigid cantilevered disc, which might be replaceable with a purely tensile sail wobbling downwind (coolIP). Otherwise, its hard to see much capital cost savings over normal HAWTs. The claim of a storage advantage is mistaken, unless you have a handy pumped-hydro site or ideally-sized cave.
 
This device might compete economically in the water pumping niche if "Aeromotor-style" turbines did not already have mature market saturation. If the pumping action is used to drive a hydraulic-motor-to-electric-generator, the extra conversion stage and gearing will severely undercut the efficiency and cost claims made by the banker-turned-promoter.
 
The actual inventor is surely more modest than his CFO, a serious engineer with a rare ability to think-outside-the-box. From his website bio-
 
 
"Mr. Belgacem Aouini is a prominent electrical and mechanical engineer with an impressive track record of 40 years in the field of the power production. His previous function entailed the role of Chief Operating Officer at STEG (Tunisian National Electric Utility) in charge of operating 24 power production units using different technologies (Gas, Steam, Combined, Hydraulic and Wind).  
Mr. Aouini is an authorized International Advisor in Industrial Electricity and Energy and is a member of the heat energy brain-trust of the UNIPEDE (“Union Internationale des Producteurs et Distributeurs d'Energie Electrique”). He was a faculty member at ENIT, a leading Tunisian engineering school. Mr. Aouini was one of the first Tunisian engineers who graduated magna cum laude in Mechanical and Electrical Engineering from the “Ecole Spéciale des Travaux Publics, du Bâtiment et de l’Industrie” (one of the top engineering schools in France)."
 
 
-----------------------------------------
 
 
Note- Doug's posts often, but not always, never appear in my mailer, only the replies. Anyone know why this happens?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6769 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 8/13/2012
Subject: Bladeless
(concerning Saphonian) The patent assumes the reel with small blades
surrounding the cone has a very little fonction of power and is not
taken account for total power and Betz limit:its fonction is only making
a transformation of cone movement from reciprotating motion to sattelite
motion.

So it is claimed (like the patent precises) Betz limit is not applicable
for Saphonian.Of course it is not possible to agree since Betz limit is
a law.But it is not all.

Due to the cone motion,a part of cone goes downwind while another part
goes upwind (it is a little like a reel out-in AWES during in-phase with
non depowered kite:it should be possible with a big external motor).So
the real power is not 150 % Betz limit,nor even only 20%,but something
like a negative power.

In fact the whole cone movement (not only to tranform it) results of the
wind turbine behind,not from wind directly on the cone.

So the efficiency should be that of reel with blades (with its claimed
small swept area) less cone motion energy:something like nothing.

In fact the the produced energy is the one which generates the movement
of the cone.

So this system seems like a new Calder and could provide some money not
as wind energy system but as mobile sculpture (I say it without irony).

In my precedent message I indicate a possible translation of the
sattelite movement from Saphonian (which merit is the novelty like the
search report indicates) into AWE:it could be possible _ with a lot off
losses due to aerodynamic losses and due to only half kite working _ if
the part of kite going upwind is depowered while the other part makes
the pushing job.

Temporary conclusion:a wind turbine without blades is as a unicorn
without horn:a fancy.

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6770 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 8/13/2012
Subject: Re: Bladeless (correction)

Correction:"So the real efficiency is not 150 % Betz limit,nor even only 20%,but is negative."

 

(concerning Saphonian) the patent assumes the reel with small blades
surrounding the cone has a very little fonction of power and is not
taken account for total power and Betz limit:its fonction is only making
a transformation of cone movement from reciprotating motion to sattelite
motion.

So it is claimed (like the patent precises) Betz limit is not applicable
for Saphonian.Of course it is not possible to agree since Betz limit is
a law.But it is not all.

Due to the cone motion,a part of cone goes downwind while another part
goes upwind (it is a little like a reel out-in AWES during in-phase with
non depowered kite:it should be possible with a big external motor).So
the real efficiency is not 150 % Betz limit,nor even only 20%,but is negative.

In fact the whole cone movement (not only to tranform it) results of the
wind turbine behind,not from wind directly on the cone.

So the efficiency should be that of reel with blades (with its claimed
small swept area) less cone motion energy:something like nothing.

In fact the the produced energy is the one which generates the movement
of the cone.

So this system seems like a new Calder and could provide some money not
as wind energy system but as mobile sculpture (I say it without irony).

In my precedent message I indicate a possible translation of the
sattelite movement from Saphonian (which merit is the novelty like the
search report indicates) into AWE:it could be possible _ with a lot off
losses due to aerodynamic losses and due to only half kite working _ if
the part of kite going upwind is depowered while the other part makes
the pushing job.

Temporary conclusion:a wind turbine without blades is as a unicorn
without horn:a fancy.

PierreB





Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6771 From: Doug Date: 8/13/2012
Subject: Re: More Idiots
Dave S.:
Yeah I did briefly notice the operative concept seems somewhat similar to what you have described. That's not a coincidence - it's expected. I'm also not surprised to see you defending the idea, and bringing out the guy's credentials in a typical "hail Mary" attempt to "rescue" a powerless concept.

Forget data: this guy is "smart"! This is why attempts to improve wind energy stall so frequently: concepts first introduced by the clueless (but "smart") are then further promoted by the next clueless person, til you develop a whole self-reinforcing "concencus" of all clueless ("smart") people.

These concepts may even draw in and waste a few investor dollars before quietly "going away". That won't stop the next innovator who didn't have time to do their homework from repeating the process. You'll see the same basic idea introduced as a "breakthrough", over and over, and it will never end. Once again, it's "Groundhog Day"!
:)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6772 From: Doug Date: 8/13/2012
Subject: Re: Blade(clue)less (correction)
Nice analysis. After a few years you will learn to simply see the typical symptoms (cloth sail, 100% solidity, claims of beating Betz) and save yourself the trouble of even reading through the agonizing details of the patent. I wouldn't waste one second reading it myself. If you ever see the word "flap" used as a verb in wind energy, run the other way fast!
:)
Doug Selsam

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6773 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/13/2012
Subject: Saphonian as inverse loudspeaker
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6774 From: harry valentine Date: 8/13/2012
Subject: Re: Saphonian "Baldeless" Wind Technology
Saphon's bladeless wind technology does have some merit, independently of any Betz limits claims.

High wind velocity can literally rip a wind turbine to pieces. It is possible to wind carbon-fibre around the circumference of Saphon's bladeless turbine, to dramatically increase its HOOP STRENGTH. As the turbine spins to higher RPM's in high-velocity winds, the tensile strength of the carbon-fibre would allow the turbine to spin to very high RPM's without destroying itself.  

One option would be to install Saphon's technology upstream of a 3-bladed wind turbine that will have to shut down during excess wind. A clutch mechanism could disengage the big turbine from the generator. The little Saphon could then drive the big alternator via deep-reduction gearing. 

At least the big alternator would be generating power while the big turbine is locked, with its blades set neutral to the wind. There's lots of powerful winter winds at the northern latitudes. The combination of a huge turbine for low-velocity winds and a tiny turbine for high velocity winds driving the same generator at different times, may actually be viable.


Harry


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6775 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 8/13/2012
Subject: Re: Saphonian "Baldeless" Wind Technology
"One option would be to install Saphon's technology upstream of a 3-bladed wind turbine that will have to shut down during excess wind. A clutch mechanism could disengage the big turbine from the generator. The little Saphon could then drive the big alternator via deep-reduction gearing."
 
A time no,Saphon's cone should conduct hydraulic installation because of its reciprocating motion,not directly a generator.But in fact it conducts nothing.
 
Another time no because of wind shadow on 3-bladed wind turbine.
 
But the 3-bladed wind turbine can provide enough energy to act cone movement...so you have costs for the turbine,for the cone,for mechanism,for hydraulic installation working as hydraulic motor (not the reverse since no positive wind energy can be converted through the cone),that for decreasing efficiency of 3-bladed wind turbine;but the energy can remain rather important for the obtaining (from residual wind of the 3-bladed wind turbine) of one geant mobile sculpture...
 
PierreB 





Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6776 From: Bob Stuart Date: 8/13/2012
Subject: Re: Saphonian "Baldeless" Wind Technology
If you want hoop strength, Spectra or Kevlar are more suitable.  Carbon is used where they lack stiffness or compression strength.

Bob Stuart

On 13-Aug-12, at 11:18 AM, harry valentine wrote:


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6777 From: harry valentine Date: 8/13/2012
Subject: Re: Saphonian "Baldeless" Wind Technology
Saphon's "wobble-plate" technology may be able to generate power in high-velocity winds that require conventional rotary blade technologies to shut down. 

It would be interesting to see if multiple Saphon bladeless units can be installed on a common horizontal axis and set at a slight diagonal to the prevailing wind, so that each unit receives a blast of wind. Perhaps 2-installations of multiple bladeless units may be set in a V-shape, with the option to re-adjust to parallel during extreme winds. 


Harry


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6778 From: Darin Selby Date: 8/13/2012
Subject: Re: Saphonian "Baldeless" Wind Technology

There would be too much vibration to this Saphon structure, and any vibration dampener would detract from its overall efficiency.

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: bobstuart@sasktel.net
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 12:12:33 -0600
Subject: Re: [AWES] Saphonian "Baldeless" Wind Technology

 
If you want hoop strength, Spectra or Kevlar are more suitable.  Carbon is used where they lack stiffness or compression strength.

Bob Stuart

On 13-Aug-12, at 11:18 AM, harry valentine wrote:



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6779 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/13/2012
Subject: Augmented-reality rope lets you team up to fly a kite

Augmented-reality rope lets you team up to fly a kite


Virtual AWES games coming?
short video
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6780 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/13/2012
Subject: Re: Saphonian as inverse loudspeaker
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6781 From: dave santos Date: 8/13/2012
Subject: Re: Saphonian "Baldeless" Wind Technology
We have a new AWES type to add to our long zoo list, the "wobbling wing". The Saphonian is but one instance, a wobbling parachute might be the economic version. One might even just tie a large parachute off of a Saphonian hub, spreading the risers around the disc, to cheaply augment it. A flat ring-wing seems to be the "hot" variant. These designs blend into the looping-foil AWES space, so we have a coolIP basis free of patent claims.
 
The old AWE debate is whether there are "bad" wings so cheap they even beat great wings on an energy unit-cost basis. We know that a tower is so expensive, you might as well finance the best foils, but when your tower is a piece of string and your generator sits on the ground, who knows?
 
Some reminders-
 
-HAWTs are designed for "most probable" winds. Exceptionally high winds are too rare to be design-economic drivers, but do need to be survived.
 
-Damping (factor) of a turbine is the basic principle of tapping energy, so not all damping is bad.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6782 From: Doug Date: 8/14/2012
Subject: Re: Saphonian "Baldeless" Wind Technology
If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything.
:)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6783 From: dave santos Date: 8/14/2012
Subject: Makani ARPA-E Contract in Review //End-to-End Session Issue
What to make of Makani's Wing7 claim to have demonstrated "all flight modes"? Nevermind that Wing7 launching and landing from a cradle seems to depend on hanging from a crane with tag-lines (briefly visible in videos), the bigger question is how to judge a system that was only required (by lax oversight) to operate in one flight-mode and transition at a time, but is seemingly unable to string together a single end-to-end session. Makani does not publicly admit if it failed to integrate flight modes, for all the years and millions spent, but they have a legal and moral duty to the US Federal Government and prospective investors to be up-front about technical controversies.
 
Corwin (Cc:ed) is invited to clear up this issue on the forum, plus address other hanging concerns about the company history, culture, and technology.
 
Meanwhile, this is our limited view of the ARPA-E contract (copied from US gov website)-

Grants - AWARD SUMMARY

MAKANI POWER, INC.


The Makani Airborne Wind Turbine The Makani Airborne Wind Turbine (AWT) converts wind energy into grid quality, utility-scale electricity using tethered, high-performance wings outfitted with turbines, and promises to revolutionize the way energy is extracted from the wind. Like the tip of a conventional wind turbine blade, the wing flies crosswind in a circular pattern at many times the speed of the wind. Power is extracted by the wing-mounted turbines and transmitted to the ground through an electrically-conductive tether. Because the wing is not constrained to rotate around a hub, it can sweep a much larger section of the sky than a conventional wind turbine and fly at a higher altitude where the wind is both stronger and more consistent. These advantages result in a system that delivers twice the energy of a conventional turbine of equal power rating (60% capacity factor for class 4 wind sites). Makani's tension-based design removes the necessity for a large tower and massive foundation, yielding a system that is less than 20% of the mass of a conventional turbine of equal capacity. Due to its low-wind performance, Makani's AWT extends the developable terrestrial wind resource area by five times, to over 80% of the U.S. land surface, and promises to deliver energy at a cost 40% below that of conventional wind. Placing the turbines in the high-speed flow at the wing enables lightweight, direct-drive power generation and improves flight control through thrust and drag management. The Makani AWT can hover vertically to enable launching and landing and maintain elevation during lapses in wind or during turbulent conditions because the turbines may also be operated as propellers. The towerless design is well suited to offshore installations, allowing wind projects to be developed closer to demand centers, especially along the populous Eastern U.S. coast. Grant Accelerates Technology Readiness Since its inception in 2006, Makani has pioneered extended-duration tethered flight and continuous power generation during autonomous flight using small scale proof-of-concept prototypes. Under the ARPA-E grant, Makani will develop modes of flight necessary for commercialization. The flight modes to be demonstrated are: - Launch to hover from a perch - Transition from hover into crosswind flight - Crosswind power generation - Transition from crosswind into hover - Land to a perch from hover These flight modes will be demonstrated fully autonomously (under computer control). To date no airborne wind turbine has demonstrated any of these flight modes under autonomous control except crosswind power generation (demonstrated by Makani in spring of 2010). These demonstrations will be the first of their kind. Makani will demonstrate these flight modes on the Makani Wing 7 (W7) prototype. In fulfillment of the ARPA-E grant, Makani will show that the power generation performance of W7 exceeds that of a similarly scaled wind turbine. To confirm power generation performance, Makani will measure the power curve of the Makani W7 system in a variety of real-life conditions leading to an experimentally derived power curve (Watts generated vs. ambient wind speed). The combination of these two results will demonstrate the feasibility of this technology for commercial deployment. To show that the technology is also economically viable, Makani will develop a cost model based on the W7 system extended to utility scale. This will provide an accurate measurement of initial capital cost ($/W installed) and levelized cost of electricity ($/kWhr).

Clarification of Codes

Choose a quarter and click "Go."

 

AWARD OVERVIEW

AWARD OVERVIEW
Award Number DE-AR0000122 Funding Agency Department of Energy
Total Award Amount $3,000,000 Project Location - City Alameda
Award Date 08/29/2010 Project Location - State CA
Project Status Completed Project Location - Zip 94501-5096
Jobs Reported 17.58 Congressional District 13
Project Location - Country US


Recipient Information (Grants)

Recipient Information (Grants)
Recipient Name MAKANI POWER, INC.
Recipient DUNS Number 789832917
Recipient Address 2175 MONARCH ST
Recipient City ALAMEDA
Recipient State California
Recipient Zip 94501-5096
Recipient Congressional District 13
Recipient Country USA
Required to Report Top 5
Highly Compensated Officials
No

Projects and Jobs Information

Projects and Jobs Information
Project Title Airborne Wind Turbine
Project Status Completed
Final Project Report Submitted Yes
Project Activities Description Engineering Services
Quarterly Activities/Project Description Q1: Wing 7 Design The aerodynamic design of Wing 7 (W7) will be simulated to generate 20 kW in 10 m/s of wind and survive peak wind speeds of 25 m/s warranted by data of wind, position, power and tether tension. The W7 rotor will be designed and tested to show thrust Flight Transition from Crosswind to Hover W7 will demonstrate autonomous transition from hover into crosswind flight. W7 will remain in crosswind flight for 3 cycles of power generation before autonomously transitioning back into autonomous hover. Test validation includes video and data of wind, position, power and tension. Q5: Launch from Perch Launch and land from a perch into hover flight will be autonomously demonstrated with W7. This will be repeated twice without intervention in 10 mins with flight altitudes capital cost and levelized cost of electricity of Makani's utility scale airborne wind turbine.
Jobs Created 17.58
Description of Jobs Created The type of jobs retained by this grant include: controls engineers, electrical engineers, mechanical engineers, fabricators, technicians, reporting coordinator, accounting manager, chief technical officer, power electronics engineer.


Purchaser Information (Grants)

Purchaser Information
Contracting Office ID Not Reported
Contracting Office Name Not Available
Contracting Office Region Not Available
TAS Major Program 89-0336

Award Information

Award Information
Award Date 08/29/2010
Award Number DE-AR0000122
Order Number
Award Type Grants
Funding Agency ID 89
Funding Agency Name Department of Energy
Funding Office Name Not Available
Awarding Agency ID 89
Awarding Agency Name Department of Energy
Amount of Award $3,000,000
Funds Invoiced/Received $3,000,000
Expenditure Amount $3,000,000
Infrastructure Expenditure Amount $0
Infrastructure Purpose and Rationale Not Reported
Infrastructure Point of Contact Name Not Reported
Infrastructure Point of Contact Email Not Reported
Infrastructure Point of Contact Phone Not Reported
Infrastructure Point of Contact Address Not Reported
Infrastructure Point of Contact City Not Reported
Infrastructure Point of Contact State Not Reported
Infrastructure Point of Contact Zip Not Reported

Product or Service Information (Grants)

Product or Service Information
Primary Activity Code 541330
Activity Description Engineering Services

Sub-Awards Information

Sub-Awards Information
Sub-awards to Organizations 0
Sub-award Amounts to Organizations $0
Sub-Awards to Individuals 0
Sub-Award Amounts to Individuals $0
Number of Sub-awards less than $25,000/award 0
Amount of Sub-awards less than $25,000/award $0
Number of payments to vendors greater than $25,000 0
Total Amount of payments to vendors greater than $25,000/award $0
Number of payments to vendors less than $25,000/award 88
Total Amount of payments to vendors less than $25,000/award $44,085







Project Location Detail

Location Information
Latitude, Longitude 37º 46' 59", -122º 18' 31"
Congressional District 13
Address 1 2175 Monarch St.
Address 2
City Alameda
County Alameda
State CA
Zip 94501-5096
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6784 From: Doug Date: 8/14/2012
Subject: Re: Saphonian "Baldeless" Wind Technology
As long as you have no standards and will fall for anything, here's another one I stumbled across a few minutes ago.
U.S. Patent 8,206,106

Note the company is named WindFlo. Real wind energy people know any company using the word "flow" or "flo" in their name is a loser. (It implies that their professor crackpot was the first to realize that fluids "flow" and that his insight is not an insight at all but is instead re-branded ignorance. "Like dewd, our professor (crackpot) was the first to realize that fluids flow..." With that insight he arranged some surfaces so that wind could push them - pretty good huh? He's "really smart"!

FloWind was a famous wind energy bankruptcy case (a thousand vertical-axis turbines in Tehachapi - they did OK til it got too windy.

FloDesign was the Kleiner-Perkins mis-step that I stood at a bar at the Ritz Carlton in Lake Tahoe trying to tell Bill Joy and John Doerr, the principals of of Kleiner-Perkins (big cleantech V.C. firm), was one more piece of crap "Professor Crackpot" machine that combined several known bad ideas in turbine design together as a single cluster-bleep. (They gave up on their "breakthrough" like almost all do.)

Both losing "flo" concepts had quite a few "really smart" people agreeing that they were great ideas. In wind energy, Caveat Emptor!. And thinking you are particularly "smart" seems to be a bad omen. Avoid the word "flow" or "flo", among many other bad signs that one only recognizes if they are in many days into the movie "Groundhog Day" with regard to wind energy "breakthroughs".
:)
Doug Selsam

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6785 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/14/2012
Subject: Re: Saphonian as inverse loudspeaker

A close cousin: 

Harnessing sound power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6786 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/14/2012
Subject: Re: Saphonian as inverse loudspeaker
Wobble the leaves of a tree and pump the juices of that tree 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6787 From: Theo Schmidt Date: 8/14/2012
Subject: Re: Drag versus lift devices
Doug schrieb:
Hi Doug: likewise I'm sure!

Likewise I'm sure!


Yes. As I wrote, to overcome the Betz limit you would have to bring your entire
parcel of air to a standstill, i.e. "capture" it, as you would catch a flying
ball, transferring its entire kinetic energy to your hand and arm. Clearly this
isn't possible completely in reality, but I conjecture that the Betz limit as
applicable to turbines may not apply completely to intermittently operated drag
devices.

...
...
Great!

Exactly! Reduce their poor corpses to molecules and even extract their warmth to
heat the establishment and burn their carbon to power the theatre's arc-lamps...
Open the doors to admit another croud of victims...

...
This is of course the weakness of intermittent drag devices. You must release
the fluid and bring the device back to the start, e.g. collapse the parachute,
lift the oar, etc. However while this isn't easy in practice, in theory very
little energy is required for this return stroke. Rowers lift their oars out of
the water and even feather the blades in the air for the return stroke.


Of course, it's fun! But every now and again, one of them chances on success,
like the chap who broke his woodscrew-like propeller and suddenly it became more
efficient. Actually it is the essence of science to continually doubt
established findings, trying to find new answers. Usually you can't, when the
established findings are very good. But now and again, new things are discovered.

...
Well, I do have such a background even if I've forgotten much. The point of this
thread is that at least in theory that device isn't as hopeless as it appears
and MAYBE it could also have practical advantages but MAYBE not.

Cheers, Theo
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6788 From: Doug Date: 8/15/2012
Subject: Re: Makani ARPA-E Contract in Review //End-to-End Session Issue
Dave S.
With your superior insights and advanced designs for oscillating arrays of blah blah blah, I can't believe you have time to critique McConney (Makani). Since your ideas are predicted (by you) to eclipse all other technologies, I wouldn't waste another second on these guys - get to work! You owe it to humanity! (such as it is...)
:)
Doug S.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6789 From: Doug Date: 8/15/2012
Subject: Re: Drag versus lift devices
Hey Theo:
Drag devices were superseded 2000 years ago. They don't even approach the Betz coefficient and never can, because they travel downwind, reducing the relative windpspeed impinging upon them, and since power is proportional to wind velocity cubed, lowering that relative speed even a little reduces power by a LOT. So forget about Betz if the wind is dragging your sail downwind. That doesn't even include the return cycle. The problem with discussions like this is they are so far into the land of complete ignorance that they carry no meaning whatsoever. It would be nice if there were an airborne wind energy forum for people who know what the heck they are talking about. This is a bad use of my time, amusing though it may be.
Have fun!
:)
Doug S.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6790 From: Dave Lang Date: 8/15/2012
Subject: Re: Drag versus lift devices
FWIW, and coming from a guy who Doug has insinuated doesn't know the difference between "power" and "energy"....so I don't expect Doug to believe this (hey hey, NASA took a big chance when they let me instruct the Apollo astronauts in Flight Dynamics :-)), BUT, some insight into a "Betz" limit for a pure drag device can be further quantified in terms of the device's "drag coefficient" (Cd).

I derived this in the same style used to derive the classical Betz limit (I'm sure Dough already knew this, but didn't want to intimidate the rest of us dolts with his profound, albeit humbly denied, knowledge).

So (at least by my derivation) for a device like a "parachute" or a "Ship on a down-wind run under sail",

1. The Max power extraction fraction = "(4/27)* Cd"
2. Peak power extraction occurs at a "downwind device speed" of "(1/3) Vwind".

OF course the devil is in the details concerning the value of Cd, since it is itself a quantified measurement of a device's propensity to catch air. For instance, a flat plate has a Cd frequently quoted as about 1.1, Thus, a flat plate operating as a drag device to capture wind power, will exhibit the ability to extract only  about 15% of the incident power (compared to the classical turbine limit of 59%).

However, once again (for all you newbies that just don't seem to get it....am I doing good Doug? :-)) efficiency and Betz limits are of little consequence as "numbers to be enslaved-to" since the raw energy is FREE!!!   What counts is the bottom line of "Cost of Power", and "Return on Investment" both of which reflect cost of implementation and operations over the long-haul.

DaveL







At 3:41 PM +0000 8/15/12, Doug wrote:
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6791 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 8/15/2012
Subject: Re: Drag versus lift devices

A good lesson for me.

 

Here is an observation (or a question) about area occupied at ground level and resultant costs.

 

With an AWES harnessing jet-stream like Skymill' or Sky Windpower' you have a continuous unidirectional flow stream during several months,so the system is like an immovable system which can be likened to a giant tower with low ground area and low resultant costs if the value of flight angle is rather close to the vertical line for the acceptance of the public...,and if the system is rather reliable.

 

But with another (crosswind) AWES where altitudes do not exceed 1000 m (3000 ft),continuous working periods are only few days,and flight angle is roughly only between 20 and 65°,so a land area of which the radius is at least the length of tether (for one kite according to all wind directions) must be reserved and empty of inhabitants.Such a ground area is very expensive on land (far less offshore),and a high efficiency regarding Betz limit is a mean to reduce involving land area costs.On this point conventional wind turbines are less expensive.

 

PierreB    




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6792 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/15/2012
Subject: GV Demidov
http://www.ntpo.com/patents_electricity/electricity_2/electricity_241.shtml
 
One might use Google translation to read. 
HIGH-RISE AEROSTATODINAMICHESKAYA POWER PLANTSHIGH-RISE AEROSTATODINAMICHESKAYA POWER PLANTS

DISCLAIMER ON THE FOLLOWING: 
 shown is a MACHINE TRANSLATION, so many errors probably exist in the translation: 

HIGH-RISE AEROSTATODINAMICHESKAYA POWER PLANTS

The name of the inventor: GV Demidov, ES Osipov  name of the patent:  Herman V. Demidov Address for correspondence: date of the patent: 1994.07.12 

 

Use: the area of ​​wind energy and wind farms for development. The inventive high-altitude aerostatodinamicheskaya power plant, comprising aircraft, designed as a kite cargo carrying surface of which contains an annular wing, consisting of the aerodynamic elements 2, 3, with the curvature along the span, and can be of different sizes of the chord along the span such as the minimum at the bottom, connected by a horizontal plane. Along the perimeter of the ring are wind turbines 4, 5, 6, behind the rear edge of the aerodynamic elements of wind turbines, and 7 in the horizontal plane to the aerodynamic elements 2, 3, and the different directions of rotation. Each wind turbine comprises a compressor of the centrifugal type, multiplier and an engine blade is mechanically connected to each other, and the flow of communicated with each other through the release of each subsequent communication with the input of the previous one, with the output of the last compressor hoses communicated to the input power the machine on the ground.

DESCRIPTION OF THE INVENTION

The alleged invention relates to the field of wind energy and can be used in the development of wind farms into large and very large capacity for both electric and other energy commercial with the placement of a working machine on the truck kite, for drilling in exploration parties to clear mines of explosive gases to drive the propeller ship or ocean-going vessels for the energy supply of individual regions or shelf.

Known wind energy installation, comprising wind turbine, kinematically connected with the compressor connected to an electrical generator turbine and receivers, high and low pressure, the first of which is connected to the output of the compressor. The well-known wind power plant described in the literature, "The state of scientific and technical basis for the development of wind energy and recommendations on the use of wind turbines." VIESKh M., 1966, p. 32-34.

The well-known wind energy installation is to create a large capacity industrial importance, since it is fixed on the farm, set on the ground, and, as the wind energy inventory, it is impossible to create a high power energy because of the low annual average wind speed.

Known wind energy installation, comprising the balloon in the shape of a ball located on the basis of the generator, the torsion wire, one end is pivotally connected to the balloon and the other to the shaft of the generator, and subsequently attached to a rope wind wheel. Known for wind power plant is represented by U.S. Patent N 4165468, cl. 290 55, publ. 1979

To a certain setting is not possible to adjust the height of lift windwheels for posting on the heights with the necessary wind speeds, which reduces the generation of electricity due to incomplete use of the wind speed at height.

Known as wind power installation comprising an aircraft as part of the ball with aerostatic lift, wind turbines, the working machine, the unit of energy transfer to the ground, mounts on the aircraft and on the ground, regulators. Known for wind power plant is represented by U.S. Patent 4207026 N cells. 416 84 (class F 03 D 11/00), publ. In 1980.

In a technical solution, taken as a prototype, you can not realize the power generation in a large and very large quantities, because of the consistent establishment of wind turbines, which is also consistent with the establishment of aircraft component aerostatic lift force on a single device, the energy transfer to the ground, unable to implement a repair installation of individual nodes by removing part of balloons with the wind turbines on them.

Solved the technical challenge is to increase energy production in large and very large quantities in the implementation of the requirements of maintainability.

In the high-altitude aerostatodinamicheskoy power plants, containing an aircraft component with aerostatic lift, wind turbines, the working machine, the unit of energy transfer to the ground, mounts on the aircraft and on the ground, regulatory authorities, an aircraft component with aerostatic lift is designed as a profiled platform consisting of two and in the bearing and having a curvature along the span of aerodynamic elements connected in a horizontal plane of the aircraft in the ring, where wind turbines are located and, and working machines, producing energy, each working machine is kinematically connected to the respective wind turbines, and a part of the wind turbines installed profiled in the perimeter of the platform and the other part of wind turbines installed in front of her in the vicinity of the maximum horizontal longitudinal section, and placed in it without a moment to roll the mass of a wind turbine with different directions of rotation, providing deviating down for propeller blades of the air streams of current decrease induced drag aerodynamic profiles of the circular wing, and the output shaft of a wind turbine is installed with switchable clutch propulsion system for the takeoff and landing, except the most in the working machine, placed on the aircraft, coupled with the power transmission device to the ground with an energy machine that converts energy of compressed air electrical energy with the subsequent transfer to the consumer and / or device of electrolytic dissociation of the electrolyte, with stored energy in the form of receiver for the decay products of the electrolyte, such as hydrogen produced by electrolysis of water to the consumer as a working body, other than just her job as a machine compressor For example, centrifugal type, connected with the corresponding wind turbines through the multiplier, flow of their communicated with each other so that the input of each compressor in communication with the subsequent release of the previous compressor, the compressor and the output of the last reported device, power transmission from an aircraft in a pressure hose to the input energy machines, such as the input of the turbine, mounted on the shaft of an electric generator whose output is connected to a network of consumers of electricity and / or the input power machine, and input of the first compressor in communication with air intakes in the form of a perforated outer surface of the negative pressure in the flow profile of the ring wing of the oncoming air stream, and the delivery hose is designed as a thin-walled metal tube with a wound on its outer surface of high-fiber material and fixed to a rotating drum with a radius of the mount, providing acceptable strain pressure hoses for winding on the rotating drum, above all in it longitudinal axis of each wind turbine, located behind the profiled platform is shifted relative to the longitudinal axis of the profiled platform in the direction of increased pressure in the annular airfoil wing oncoming air stream, above all in it in an aircraft on an external sling za profiled platform down the air flow is an additional aircraft component of aerostatic lift from wind turbines and the working machine in the form of a compressor, kinematically connected via a multiplier, and suspension components are made in the form of additional hoses, generators farm spatial suspension cabling when completing their working fluid under pressure through the compressor input reporting regulators with air profiled on the platform, and the output it through the regulatory agencies as a means of propulsion and pressure hoses, above all in it for aircraft and hoses attached suction hose, the entrance of which is placed in the shaft with suction explosive gas, and the output of the suction hose is connected to with the fuel system propulsion system, the output device which communicated with the cavity of a jet drive propulsion turbine blade tips, above all in it for an additional aircraft mounts installed in a rotating drum for the hoses or the umbilical cord to aerostatodinamicheskogo altitude aircraft, other than just It has an annular wing brackets with mating elements for the connection of one aircraft to another, except the most in-ring holds wings curved in the longitudinal plane, and its longitudinal axis has a radius of curvature in the longitudinal direction, above all in the ring in her wing of the channels that form slotted airfoil, above all in her flying machine is designed as an open ring in the transverse plane, above all in it on the outer surface of the aircraft deployed film converters of solar energy into electrical energy, the output of which communicated with the authorities as an aircraft, and with energy consumers for an additional cable.

The presence of significant differences can increase the production of energy on a large and very large quantities in the implementation of the requirements of maintainability of a working machine on the truck kite.

The increase in energy production is achieved not only the best use of wind energy inventory, from which it is known that at the height of the average annual wind speed is much higher (as for H 0 m is the air density  1.225 kg / m 3 , the average wind speed in the middle bands of Russia is equal to W 2 m / s, then at H 10,000 m, air density r 0,414 kg / m 3 , the wind speed is equal to W 20.22 m / s) but also the use of compressed air in the compressor, not only as a working machine, but also a potential force field, which realized during the motion of a particle from a working machine at the height of the energy machine is installed on the ground, as it makes the bulk of the mass of wind power installation. Using the pressure of the air flow, which is characterized maloizmenyayuscheysya value of wind speed at height during the year, for the wind component in addition to the aerostatic lift component, whose magnitude is much greater than the latter. A significant increase in the lift of the aircraft (kites) and ensure the dynamic equilibrium of three forces proper weight of the aircraft and wind turbines, the wind pressure on its supporting surface and pulling the hoses attached to it, can increase the number of wind turbines on board the aircraft and thus increase the area of removal of distributed energy (wind), low density for the subsequent conversion of the energy of high density in a working machine (power of compressed air). The layout of the aircraft in two airfoils with a radius of curvature along the span, connected in a horizontal plane with a slit profile and the radius of curvature of longitudinal axis, ensures the stability and controllability of the aircraft at high values ​​of wind speed, while as the prototype is already in the presence of the wind speed W 5.7 m / s will have a great difficulty in sustaining flight aerostatic aircraft. The distribution of an annular wing span of the payload, ie the mass of wind turbines, significantly reduces the weight of the ring wing.

The presence of significant differences allows us to go to a fundamentally new approaches in the design of "aerial platform", iecargo kites to be placed on them by weight of small wind turbines, consisting of a centrifugal compressor which is connected kinematically through the multiplier to increase the peripheral speed of the impeller with a propeller blade from the government.The increase in aerodynamic lifting surface and a decrease in weight of the aircraft can increase the number of wind turbines, in which a message on the air path inputs and outputs sells compressors to obtain a high density of energy transferred to the earth, transformed from a small distributed wind power density at the height of which is to eat a large area with bladed propeller wind turbines. The energy machine, depending on the type of required energy conversion is compressed air on the ground in case of electricity or hydrogen as the working fluid, or under the ground in case of using compressed air as the working fluid drive drilling tool drilling rig or ship propeller drive for swimming in the sea ​​and ocean lines.

The dynamic balance of the aircraft is provided by the three forces, one pulling the hoses that connect the output of a working machine on the aircraft and the input power the machine on the ground. Delivery hose, as one of the most crucial components power plant operates as a multi-layer thin-walled metal tube with a wound on the outer surface of high-strength fiber material, which supplies compressed air to power the car. On the delivery hose tensile forces acting on the air pressure and drag force of the aircraft, as well as compressive forces acting on the mass forces. However, the input of a separate working machine can be connected to suction hose with a cavity of the shaft with explosive gas and then using it as a working body in the afterburning thrust to increase the jet drive compressor blade propeller, providing an increase in wind power installation.

Contribute to increase the aerodynamic qualities such distinctive features as the establishment of the blade propeller (breaking a clutch connected to the propulsion system) before letatelnyi apparatus, after the action which the counter-current trickle down deviating reduce induced drag airfoils, the longitudinal axis of the aircraft, having a radius of curvature in the longitudinal plane creates an extra effort when the direction of flow (turbo effect) channel, forming a slotted airfoil, help to increase the lift by controlling the boundary layer flow. 





Connect one aircraft to another, and the possibility of uncoupling and coupling in the air can not only increase the wind power installation to a particularly large quantities, but also create the opportunity undock a single aircraft to land it, and repair.

This way, the solution of the problem, namely an increase in energy production in large and very large quantities in the implementation of wind turbines maintainability requirements.

The analysis of technical solutions with a similar set of essential features were found.

HIGH-RISE AEROSTATODINAMICHESKAYA POWER PLANTSHIGH-RISE AEROSTATODINAMICHESKAYA POWER PLANTS

In FIG. 1 shows the altitude aerostatodinamicheskoy power plant with a slotted aerofoil of an aircraft carrier, made in the form of cargo "kite" ring shape.

In FIG. 2 shows a diagram of wind farm very high power in a docked aircraft to each other with an electrical power center on the halyard attached to the kite, made for radio or television program about the state of wind farm with an autonomous device that provides power center both static and dynamic components of the lift force.

The device according to the invention operates as follows. Altitude aerostatodinamicheskaya power plant includes an aircraft in the form of cargo kite slit-type annular wing 1, consisting, for example, the two carriers aerodynamic elements 2.3, with the curvature along the span, and can have different values ​​of the chord along the span, and the minimum value of the bottom chord part, with the aerodynamic elements 2, 3 combined in the horizontal plane. For the trailing edge of the aerodynamic elements 2, 3 wind turbines are 4, 5, 6, a drive which is the incident wind flow. In the horizontal wind turbines are an additional seven to ring a wing, and left along the flow direction of the wind turbine has a clockwise rotation, and right along the flow direction of the wind turbine has a counterclockwise rotation to ensure that the deviation of the air jets down the current, preventing overflow of the zone of high pressure area of ​​low pressure in the flow around an airfoil 3.

Ring a wing can be made an integral part of the ring-shaped, arranged one after another in the longitudinal direction. 4.5 Wind turbines located in a ring and are shifted relative to the longitudinal axis of the aircraft toward the high pressure generated in the bearing surfaces of the flow around a circular wing of the oncoming air stream, and wind turbine 6 is located on the external sling in a downward direction to the oncoming wind flow over a ring , and the external suspension is made as hoses 8, forming a truss design when filling out their working fluid under pressure.

Wind turbines 4, 5, 6, 7 contain a working machine, for example, in the form of a centrifugal compressor, the multiplier and blade propeller-driven wind loads, mechanically connected to each other, as well as controls. Operating the machine is installed in an aircraft and its output is connected with the energy transfer device 9 on the ground with energomashinoy 10, performed in a sequence established by the turbo-generators and power converters, secure network, such as electrolysis of water, whose output is connected to a drive 11 in the form of receiver for hydrogen, and energy consumers 12 through regulators. The receiver is also coupled to the fuel tanks of the aircraft, adding to their hydrogen gas.

Fuel tank communicated via the fuel supply to the propulsion system for the takeoff and landing, which at the height of breaking through the clutch momentarily turned to increase capacity in the development of additional energy consumption of the working fluid.

In the annular wing 1, channels 13, forming a slotted airfoil, with the longitudinal axis of the annular wing has a curvature in the vertical plane. On an aircraft operating the machine in the form of a compressor connected to the corresponding multiplier of wind turbines and flow of the compressor communicated with each other so that the input of each compressor in communication with the subsequent release of the previous compressor, the compressor and the output of the last reported using the device 9 transferring energy from an aircraft at the ground with the cavity input power machine. Device 9 is satisfied in the form of multi-pressure hose, consisting of a thin-walled metal tube wrapped on the outer surface of the composite material. The sleeve 9 is fixed on a rotating drum with a radius of the mount, providing acceptable strain pressure hoses in a state of winding on a drum.

In an aircraft mounted suction hose, the entrance of which is placed in the mine, which is extracted from the flammable explosive gas, and the output of the suction hose is connected to the fuel system in a propulsion system for future admission to post-combustion gas compression in the jet drive turbine blades 7.

On the outer surface of the annular wing 1 may be placed with the docking bracket elements 14 by means of which may join other aircraft.

To ensure the aircraft electrical power on the outer surface it can be placed 15 film converters of solar energy. Electrical output transducers as reported to the authorities of the aircraft, and with energy consumers. As the last aircraft to be placed equipment (transceiver) TV translator, which can optionally be mounted on the external load 16 with the antenna fixed on it 17. Last posted on more aerostatodinamicheskoy platform component of the aerodynamic lift force that makes blade propeller 18, and the Aeronautical component of the lift device 19 generates, on the surface of which there are 20 additional film converters of solar energy, and the floating platform is adjustable in height, which on the flying an additional device placed the device in the form of a drum for winding tether. 21 Regulators have the ability to change the position of one part of a composite aircraft with respect to another, changing the radius of curvature of the longitudinal axis.

Operation altitude aerostatodinamicheskoy power plant is as follows.

Component of the aerostatic lift makes it possible to tear off an aircraft from the ground, spins a drum, increasing the length of discharge hose 9. Launch propulsion system, based on the wind turbine 7. In the presence of excess traction is climbing. On reaching a given height velocity air pressure ensures the implementation of the aerodynamic lift force component of the bearing surface of the aircraft in addition to an aerostatic component.

Under the influence of the pressure of the air flow is provided by the balance of the aircraft under the influence of three forces, the efforts of the aerodynamic effects on the profile (magnitude of lift and drag forces), the mass forces and the tension force of the hoses 9. Wind flow are rotated by wind turbine blade propellers, which is low speed. Wind turbine rotates the wheel of a centrifugal pump, increasing the speed by connecting them with each other through the multiplier, and the circumferential velocity increases and, consequently, the pressure, whose value in the diffuser part is converted into pressure. Flow of all compressors looped so that the entrance of each subsequent compressor is connected to the output of the previous compressor, thus increasing the compression of air. Thus, wind dynamic pressure as the value of distributed energy is converted to a low density of energy of compressed air, that is, the energy of high density. Compressed air flows through the hoses 9 to the input power machine, which is located on the ground, since its weight is the bulk mass of the wind energy plant, with the motion of the compressed air from the exit of the working machine to the input energy machine under the influence of the force field increases the degree of compression . The energy of the compressed air on the ground or converted into electrical energy to the turbogenerator with a subsequent transfer of the consumer, either through protecting the network from overload in the form of electrolysis of water is converted into energy gazofitsirovannogo hydrogen and sent to a storage device in the form of high-pressure receiver, followed by transfer to the consumer, or the mechanical energy of rotation of the tool, for example, the drilling rig, or in any other species, such as the magnitude of the torque drive marine vessel propeller.

High-altitude aircraft 1 can be positioned over the shaft with explosive gas and the suction hose to ensure delivery of this gas in the fuel supply system and then use it after the post-combustion as the working fluid in the compression paddle propulsion jet drive wind turbines, increasing the capacity of the latter.

To increase the power of the wind farm is run by a kite, which connect with the elements connected to the aircraft at altitude. To ensure the aircraft electrical power and controls film solar energy converters 15 convert it into electricity, which comes as regulators and the equipment (two-way radio to television translator) to monitor and transmit information about the state of the aircraft at an altitude of . For a better review and monitoring provide the location of the equipment, receiving and transmitting antenna 17 for additional aerostatodinamicheskoy platform component of the aerodynamic lifting force is provided by propeller blade 18 with a jet drive, a component of the aerostatic lift is provided by the device 19, which run to a higher altitude than the aircraft. Using a large value of the surface structures, components for aerostatic lift is placed on the surface of the film an additional 20 solar energy converters, which supply electric power equipment. As a result of monitoring the work of wind farm decision about the possibility of repair. For this electrical signal is fed to the uncoupling of aircraft components, one of which begin planting for the repair and re-dock the other, forming a single floating platform. For the implementation of the landing of the aircraft produced in the reverse take-off.

The present invention can be used in wind power to generate energy from unconventional sources in quantities of industrial importance, as well as to create a means of providing electrical energy away from the individual infrastructure projects. The location of wind turbines at high altitude makes them environmentally friendly, eliminating the harmful effects of infrasonic waves on living organisms.

The present invention has a practical significance. It can be used to clear mines from the explosive mine gas to drive the tool in the exploration parties on drilling rigs with high Efficiency when used as the working fluid compressed air to drive the screw vessel with compressed air supply for the complex and / or the energy of compressed air and / or electrical energy offshore on the shelf.The use of air platforms for observation and transmission of information not only about the state of air platforms, but also the environment in the form of information about fires, radio and television relay stations with a reduced influence of the emissivity of the apparatus of living organisms.

CLAIMS

A. Altitude aerostatodinamicheskaya power plant comprising an aircraft component with aerostatic lift, wind turbines, the working machine, the unit of energy transfer to the ground, mounts on the aircraft and on the ground, regulators, characterized in that in her flying machine with aerostatic lift component is made in the form of shaped platform, consisting of two carriers and having a curvature along the span of aerodynamic elements connected in a horizontal plane of the aircraft in the ring, where wind turbines are located and working machines, producing energy, each working machine is kinematically connected to the respective wind turbines, with a of the wind turbines installed in the perimeter of the platform profiled her, and another part to it in the vicinity of the maximum horizontal longitudinal section, and placed it on a roll without a moment of the mass of a wind turbine with different directions of rotation, providing deviating down for propeller blades of an air stream of the current reduction of induced drag annular wing airfoils, and the output shaft of the turbine is installed with switchable clutch propulsion system for the takeoff and landing.

Two. Power plant according to claim 1, characterized in that in her work as a compressor machines, for example, centrifugal type, connected with the corresponding wind turbines through the multiplier, flow of their communicated with each other so that the input of each compressor in communication with the subsequent release of the previous compressor , and the output of the last compressor unit reported the transfer of energy from an aircraft in a pressure hose to the input of energy machines, such as the entrance to the turbine, mounted on the shaft of an electric generator whose output is connected to a network of consumers of electricity and / or the input power machine, and input of the first compressor communicated with air, made in the form of a perforated outer surface of the negative pressure in the annular airfoil wing oncoming air stream, and the delivery hose is designed as a thin-walled metal tube with a wound on its outer surface of high-fiber material and fixed to a rotating drum mount with a radius of providing allowable strain pressure hoses for winding on a rotating drum.

Three. Power plant on the sub. 1 and 2, characterized in that the machine is working in it, placed on an aircraft, the device is connected to the transfer of energy to the ground with an energy machine that converts energy of compressed air into electrical energy with the subsequent transfer of the consumer and system protect the network from congestion as a unit electrolytic dissociation of the electrolyte, with stored energy in the form of receiver for the decay products of the electrolyte, such as hydrogen, poduchennogo the electrolysis of water to the consumer as the working fluid.

4. Power plant on the sub. 1-3, characterized in that in it the longitudinal axis of each wind turbine, located behind the profiled platform that is shifted relative to the longitudinal axis of the profiled platform in the direction of increased pressure in the annular airfoil wing oncoming airflow.

Five. Power plant on the sub. 1-4, characterized in that it in an aircraft hanger on the outside of the profiled platform down the air flow is in addition to the aircraft component of aerostatic lift from the wind turbines and a working machine in the form of a compressor, kinematically connected via a multiplier, and suspension components are made in the form of additional hoses, forming the shape of a helical spatial suspension in completing their working fluid under pressure through the compressor is reporting input from regulators profiled air inlet on the platform, and the output it through the regulatory agencies as a means of propulsion and pressure hoses.

6. Power plant on the sub. 1-3, characterized in that it in an aircraft and hoses attached suction hose, the entrance of which is placed in the shaft with suction explosive gas, and the output of the suction hose is connected to the fuel system propulsion system, the output device which communicated with the cavity jet drive a wind turbine propeller blade tips.

7. Power plant on the sub. 1-5, characterized in that it further in an aircraft mounted units mount in the form of spinning reels for hoses or umbilical cord for the high-altitude aircraft aerostatodinamicheskogo.

Eight. Power plant on the sub. 1-5, characterized in that it has an annular wing brackets with mating elements for the connection of one aircraft to another.

9. Power plant on the sub. 1-3, characterized in that it holds an annular wing curved in the longitudinal plane and the longitudinal axis has a radius of curvature in the longitudinal direction.

10. Power plant on the sub. 1-3 and 9, characterized in that it in the ring wing of the channels, forming a slotted airfoil.

11. Power plant on the sub. 1-4, 8 and 10, characterized in that the aircraft it is designed as an open ring in the transverse plane.

12. Power plant on the sub. 1-3, characterized in that in it on the outer surface of the aircraft deployed film converters of solar energy into electrical energy, the output of which communicated with the authorities as an aircraft, and with the energy consumers of the additional cable.

13. Power plant on the sub. 1-3, 8 and 12, characterized in that it further on the halyard in the form of pressurized hoses attached additional aerostatodinamicheskaya platform in the form of an aerostatic device on which the fixed blade propeller with a jet-driven compression, the inner cavity of which communicates with the hoses of the aircraft, and an extra platform aerostatodinamicheskoy placed antennas and equipment for radio and transponder with electrical provision of the additional thin-film solar energy converters, mounted on top of the surface.

Print 
Publication date 14.02.2007gg

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6793 From: Doug Date: 8/15/2012
Subject: woops I got another patent...
US 8197179
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6794 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/16/2012
Subject: Re: woops I got another patent...

Congrats, Doug ! :)      US 8197179 
Fry seems to have dealt with the kite-system support means for the realm. 
Have you yet tried the kite-arch to spread two support points totally aerially; or two spreading branches of kite-trains for spreading lofted support points; or even lofted spreader truss holding a set of rotors?

JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6795 From: Doug Date: 8/16/2012
Subject: Interview with Corwin Hardham of Makani
http://www.makanipower.com/2012/08/corwin-hardham-at-the-national-clean-energy-summit/

I just got an e-mail from ARPA-E attempting to rationalize all the money they waste. (Well that wasn't how the e-mail was intended but I gotta have a little fun here...).

Anyway the e-mail did have a link to a video of our friend and co-pioneer in Airborne Wind Energy speaking at a recent Clean Energy Whatever Blah Blah Blah Event in Nevada.

See Carvin Hardhat of McConney - no I mean Corwin Hardham of Makani (Doh!) in the video.

Note to Dave S.
Corwin is well-groomed, well-dressed, and doesn't say anything that sounds too stupid - a good first step toward any endeavor, especially one whose very mention causes raised eyebrows.
:)
Doug Selsam
http://www.WWEA.org
:O...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6796 From: roderickjosephread Date: 8/16/2012
Subject: Re: woops I got another patent...
Really nice work Doug.
I hope you fly the final hurdles to mass production and
I want to see valleys / canyons / building gaps /tidal flows... everywhere bursting with spinny stuff.
Apart from all of the superb factual study. I also enjoyed finding out your middle name. heh heh heh
Again Well done
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6797 From: Doug Date: 8/16/2012
Subject: Re: woops I got another patent...
Thanks Joe
another boulder in my backpack.
another gold bar stashed in my swim trunks...
The Sky's The Limit!
(bubble gurgle gurgle blurp...)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6798 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/17/2012
Subject: System for high altitude tethered powered flight platform
Application number: 13/211,000
Publication number: US 2012/0112008 A1
Filing date: Aug 16, 2011
System for high altitude tethered powered flight platform
Gregory Holifield
Timothy Holifield
Jason McKenna
Gilbert Barrett
Seth Broadfoot
Assignee: Primal Innovation, Sanford, Florida, USA

Click image for full document, discuss claims: 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6799 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/19/2012
Subject: Super sparkle
Are there  niche needs for a super-spinning sparkling body in the sky during the day or day's edge time?
If so, bring kite systems into play to provide reflections of the sun.  Or at night to reflect back to earth's surface a directed light onto the kite system. 



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6800 From: John Oyebanji Date: 8/20/2012
Subject: Re: Super sparkle
Thoughts of a festive night display.
John Adeoye Oyebanji;
CEO, Hardensoft International
President-protem, Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association - AWEIA International

From: "Joe Faust" <joefaust333@gmail.com
Sender: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 01:20:41 -0000
To: <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AWES] Super sparkle

 

Are there  niche needs for a super-spinning sparkling body in the sky during the day or day's edge time?

If so, bring kite systems into play to provide reflections of the sun.  Or at night to reflect back to earth's surface a directed light onto the kite system. 



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6801 From: dave santos Date: 8/20/2012
Subject: Mothra1 Tour Update
Mothra1 and team left KiteLab Austin last week and has crossed the country for testing and upgrades at KiteLab Ilwaco, and to attend a major kite festival (WSKIF2012, in the US NW). She made the following stops-
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6802 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/20/2012
Subject: Re: Mothra1 Tour Update
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6803 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/21/2012
Subject: AWEC plans a meeting in September
News Release: 
Global Experts Gather in Hampton, Virginia for Airborne Wind Energy   
Conference September 11 & 12
The National Institute of Aerospace  (NIA) is excited to announce the 2012 Airborne Wind Energy 
Conference to be held September 11--‐12, at the Crowne Plaza Marina in historic Hampton, Virginia. 
The conference is the third in a series hosted by the Airborne Wind Energy Consortium (AWEC), 
a nonprofit organization that unites global stakeholders who actively work to advance airborne wind energy 
technologies. The consortium of industry firms, works with academic researchers, government agencies, 
and others, who together, advocate for and advance research in this field. 

The conference is intended to be a focal point for the global airborne wind energy community and is 
meant to foster and promote the research, development, and deployment of airborne wind energy 
harvesting technologies. Topic areas to be covered are the altitude wind resource, Airborne Wind 
Energy Systems technology development progress, the economics of deployment, plus regulatory and 
policy considerations. 

Speakers at the conference include Dr. Cristina Archer,  Associate Professor of Physical Ocean Science 
and Engineering at the University of Delaware who will deliver the opening keynote; Dr. Ken Caldeira, 
Department of Global Ecology, Carnegie Institution of Washington; Dr. Corwin Hardham, CEO, Makani 
Power; Rob Creighton, President, Windlift; Dr. Chris Purvis, renewable energy farm project development 
director; Ben Glass, CEO, Altaeros Energies; Dr. Fort  Felker, Director, National Wind Technology  Center, 
NREL; Guido Leutsch, Managing Director, NTS Energie‐und Transportsysteme; Dr. Mark Jacobson, 
Professor of Civil and Environmental Engineering, Stanford University; among others. 
Meeting the Energy needs for life on Earth in the 21st century is a global endeavor.  Airborne wind 
energy harvesting represents a new frontier in alternative, renewable, clean energy, and a promising
area for the development of new technical capabilities and energy solutions for our nation and the
world.
The National Institute of Aerospace  is honored to sponsor the 2012 Airborne Wind Energy Conference in
Hampton, Virginia and excited to invite you to participate in this "airbreaking" renewable energy
endeavor.
To Register for the Conference:
http://www.nianet.org/Events/Airborne-Wind-Energy-Conference-2012.aspx
National Institute of Aerospace Point of Contact:
Michael Wagner (Michael.wagner@nianet.org) or (757) 325 6922
===================================
Ticket Prices:
(US Dollars)
Students   $135
Academia $350
Presenter $350
AWEC      $350
General    $450
50% refund for cancellations until August 24th
===================================
The Conference provides a forum for the world airborne wind energy community to review current
technologies, network, and foster collaborative partnerships with leading researchers.
===========================================================================
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6804 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/21/2012
Subject: Hall of Fame at WKM
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6805 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/21/2012
Subject: Lloyd Biscomb with WIPO patent under PCT, priority 1979
http://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/detail.jsf?docId=EP11293633
See the 59 page PDF reachable by clicks. 

Discussion of related claims and details brought forward in the patent are invited in replies of this topic thread.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6806 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/21/2012
Subject: Traction: Testing in August 2012

Sit On Top Kiteboard / Kite powered Jet Ski Prototype kitesailing off Fehmarn 

Published on Aug 21, 2012 by ingovoegler

Another heeling free kite rig sail craft prototype: a Sit On top Kite board.
Testing on Fehmarn in August 2012.
It worked very well and sailed comfortably at displacing and planing speeds of up to 8 knts.
However, in theory this craft, if powered by an effective kite(I used a speed3 21sqm), should sail much faster than the wind(and than most other sail craft). I couldn't get it faster than about 9knts though (in ~10knts of wind), as it started to wobble, causing front foil ventilation and an uncomfortable feel when exceeding 8 knts. Will mount the same rig to a longer board with a wider stern for further testing and am optimistic, that wobbling will stop and craft be much faster, design will be resembling a Jet Ski. 
Will unfortunately be quite a while, until I'll be able to do so.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6807 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/21/2012
Subject: Re: Omega Sails
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6808 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/21/2012
Subject: Shy not ...
Segmented Ultralight Pre-Aligned Rotor for 
Extreme-Scale Wind Turbines
 
Eric Loth
1
, Adam Steele
2
, Brian Ichter
3
University of Virginia, Charlottesville, VA 22904
Michael Selig
4
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, Urbana IL 61801
and Patrick Moriarty
5
National Renewable Energy Laboratory, Golden, CO
====================================================
Included in the study is a mention and showing of KiteGen carousel concept. 
However, the other matters in the study have potential effect in AWES developments. 
When we do not want to shy from storm winds, what do we do?
Etc. 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6809 From: dave santos Date: 8/21/2012
Subject: Open Letter to PJ (AWEC) //Re: [AWES] AWEC plans a meeting in Septe
Dear PJ,
 
So AWEC2012 is only made known to the wider AWE community less than one month before its date. What happened with that? (Berlin 2013 has a year lead-time.) Where was the open-call-for-participation? Is this another inside manipulation of "our" conference agenda (like 2010) to unfairly favor narrow AWEC interests?
 
At least a recent rumor of a $1200 fee, for yet another Stanford event, is untrue; As proposed long ago, NIA participation keeps costs down, unlike the Stanford nightmare of a generally unaffordable conference (with AWEC insiders printing free passes for themselves, packing the event with sycophants). $450 is still over twice what Chico 2009 was, as if NIA is less able than Chico local government to defray excessive cost.
 
Another fear is a continued spotty sharing of vital information to the global non-attending community. Vital AWE knowledge needs to be "free". We also must end the unfair limiting of open-access to our (US) public officials, who are easily mislead by the VC insider stage-managed dynamic.
 
Lets hope this is not another contested conference, once again wrongly favoring the AWEC "pay-to-play" VC agenda over "merit", by skewing allowable science-engineering content. We need progress resolving the ongoing standing concerns.
 
Thanks for a reply,
 
dave santos
KiteLab Group
 
PS An Aside: What to make of Ken Caldiera's role? He haughtily claimed he would only respond to dramatic MPI attacks on "Bay Area" Jet Stream science in a peer-reviewed journal. Does his talk omit addressing this hot aspect, or is he now responding on his own two feet. We have waited expectantly for almost a year for his rebuttal.
 
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6810 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/21/2012
Subject: Large kite arch at WSIKF on August 20, 2012
Rainbow kite arch by Ed Jensen  (<--click through to 1 MB photo)
high resolution photo file
Flown at Washington State International Kite Festival on August 20, 2012. 

Thanks to Ed Sapir for photo. 

-----------------------------------------------------------
Team Mothra1  arrived to the WSIKF

====================
Consider the small elements replaced with elements 100+  times greater in sail area. Explore WECs from such; or controlled motions for gross energy production at the anchor regions, etc. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6811 From: Rod Read Date: 8/21/2012
Subject: Re: Large kite arch at WSIKF on August 20, 2012
Can they be linked in series arrays and in 3D layers?
like giant inflated greenhouse structures one on top of each other
with layers of energy taking spinners held in sandwiches,
and water gatering channels along the tension lines controlling where water was delivered.

Rod Read

15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6812 From: PJ Shepard Date: 8/21/2012
Subject: Re: Open Letter to PJ (AWEC) //Re: [AWES] AWEC plans a meeting in Se
Dave,

If you or anyone else would still like to submit a title and an abstract for consideration by the review committee, please email it to me by the end of the day Sunday, Pacific Daylight time at the latest. The abstract could be as short as a few sentences and must not exceed 250 words.

Please note that presenters, even AWEC member presenters unless they are joining the Consortium this year, are registering at the $350 presenter rate.  Registration closes on September 7th.

Note that the NIA is also a non profit organization, which I'm sure you understand is different from a not-for-profit organization. Without the NIA's participation, this conference would not be held within reach of the nation's capital on the East Coast where so many, including you, have asked for one to be held. AWEC has listened and responded to that request.

Upward to the Higher Wind!

PJ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6813 From: roderickjosephread Date: 8/22/2012
Subject: Open Letter to PJ (AWEC) //Re: [AWES] AWEC plans a meeting in Septem
PJ thank you for the info and heads-up.
I'm interested in attending. Where can I get more information?
Will there be an option to use the NIA seminar webstreams?