Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                                AWES6562to6611 Page 29 of 440.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6562 From: Dan Date: 6/15/2012
Subject: Elevator to the stars

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6563 From: Joe Faust Date: 6/15/2012
Subject: Wire-free power transmission

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6564 From: Joe Faust Date: 6/15/2012
Subject: Re: One wire electricity transfer for needs of Airborne Wind Turbine

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6565 From: dave santos Date: 6/15/2012
Subject: Re: One wire electricity transfer for needs of Airborne Wind Turbine

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6566 From: Bob Stuart Date: 6/16/2012
Subject: Re: One wire electricity transfer for needs of Airborne Wind Turbine

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6567 From: dave santos Date: 6/16/2012
Subject: Big ArchKite Update From Texas, w/ final plan link

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6568 From: brooksdesign Date: 6/16/2012
Subject: Re: Big ArchKite Update From Texas, w/ final plan link

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6569 From: dave santos Date: 6/16/2012
Subject: Re: Big ArchKite Update From Texas, w/ final plan link

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6570 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 6/17/2012
Subject: Aiming: 500 MW flygen by Dutch group

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6571 From: Dan Date: 6/17/2012
Subject: The Future Climate

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6572 From: Doug Date: 6/18/2012
Subject: Re: Aiming: 500 MW flygen by Dutch group

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6573 From: Doug Date: 6/18/2012
Subject: Re: The Future Climate

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6574 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 6/18/2012
Subject: Re: Aiming: 500 MW flygen by Dutch group

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6575 From: harry valentine Date: 6/18/2012
Subject: Re: Aiming: 500 MW flygen by Dutch group

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6576 From: Doug Date: 6/19/2012
Subject: Re: Aiming: 500 MW flygen by Dutch group

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6577 From: dave santos Date: 6/19/2012
Subject: Re: Aiming: 500 MW flygen by Dutch group

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6578 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 6/19/2012
Subject: Re: Aiming: 500 MW flygen by Dutch group

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6579 From: Muzhichkov Date: 6/19/2012
Subject: Re: One wire electricity transfer for needs of Airborne Wind Turbine

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6580 From: roderickjosephread Date: 6/20/2012
Subject: Re: Aiming: 500 MW flygen by Dutch group

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6581 From: dave santos Date: 6/20/2012
Subject: Re: Aiming: 500 MW flygen by Dutch group

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6582 From: stefanoserra@ymail.com Date: 6/20/2012
Subject: Energy Storage Under KiteGen Perspective

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6583 From: dave santos Date: 6/20/2012
Subject: Joby Motors' Wonderful Power-to-Weight Ratings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6584 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 6/20/2012
Subject: Re: Aiming: 500 MW flygen by Dutch group

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6585 From: dave santos Date: 6/20/2012
Subject: Re: Aiming: 500 MW flygen by Dutch group

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6586 From: Joe Faust Date: 6/21/2012
Subject: Re: Kite Sport like nothing else...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6587 From: dave santos Date: 6/21/2012
Subject: Passive Control: Emergent Synchrony from Coupled Chaotic Oscillators

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6588 From: Joe Faust Date: 6/23/2012
Subject: Concept study

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6589 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 6/23/2012
Subject: Re: Concept study

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6590 From: harry valentine Date: 6/23/2012
Subject: Re: Concept study

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6591 From: roderickjosephread Date: 6/25/2012
Subject: How J E Gordon might build an inflated ring of kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6592 From: roderickjosephread Date: 6/25/2012
Subject: Re: How J E Gordon might build an inflated ring of kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6593 From: Bob Stuart Date: 6/25/2012
Subject: Re: How J E Gordon might build an inflated ring of kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6594 From: roderickjosephread Date: 6/25/2012
Subject: Re: How J E Gordon might build an inflated ring of kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6595 From: Bob Stuart Date: 6/25/2012
Subject: Re: How J E Gordon might build an inflated ring of kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6596 From: roderickjosephread Date: 6/25/2012
Subject: Re: How J E Gordon might build an inflated ring of kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6597 From: Bob Stuart Date: 6/25/2012
Subject: Re: How J E Gordon might build an inflated ring of kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6598 From: roderickjosephread Date: 6/25/2012
Subject: Re: How J E Gordon might build an inflated ring of kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6599 From: dave santos Date: 6/28/2012
Subject: Inflated rings as kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6600 From: Joe Faust Date: 6/28/2012
Subject: Laser as lightning guide

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6601 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 6/28/2012
Subject: Re: Inflated rings as kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6602 From: Robert Copcutt Date: 6/28/2012
Subject: Re: Inflated rings as kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6603 From: dave santos Date: 6/28/2012
Subject: Re: Inflated rings as kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6604 From: Bob Stuart Date: 6/28/2012
Subject: Re: Inflated rings as kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6605 From: dbmurr@ymail.com Date: 6/28/2012
Subject: Re: Inflated rings as kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6606 From: John Oyebanji Date: 6/28/2012
Subject: Re: Inflated rings as kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6607 From: roderickjosephread Date: 6/29/2012
Subject: Re: Inflated rings as kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6608 From: Joe Faust Date: 6/29/2012
Subject: Self-inflating air beam?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6609 From: dave santos Date: 6/29/2012
Subject: Kite Energy for NYC Update: AWEs Forum entry disqualified by LAGI Ru

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6610 From: dbmurr@ymail.com Date: 6/29/2012
Subject: Re: Inflated rings as kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6611 From: Robert Copcutt Date: 6/29/2012
Subject: Re: Inflated rings as kites




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6562 From: Dan Date: 6/15/2012
Subject: Elevator to the stars
Hi Joe,

Thought you'd like this one, Sold Four!

Dan'l
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zxzda3zYxA&feature=share
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6563 From: Joe Faust Date: 6/15/2012
Subject: Wire-free power transmission

[To follow HarryV's path, we focus a thread just on wire-free transmission]

Wire-free power transmission

  • Capture energy aloft and beam the energy via laser or microwave or sound or light
  • Capture energy aloft and drop stored-energy packets to earth or transfer the packets to other aircraft.
  • Make things aloft and then glide or drop the made things to earth or give them to other aircraft.
  • Live  aloft and consume the aloft-captured energy.
  • ?
  • ?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6564 From: Joe Faust Date: 6/15/2012
Subject: Re: One wire electricity transfer for needs of Airborne Wind Turbine
We also have had posted notes on: 
1. Physical oscillation of the tether set for transmission. 
2. Early patents describe "listening" to the wind via the oscillations of the tether set. 
3. And DaveS has noted a couple of time the realm of high-frequency signal and energy transfer through high-tension tethers.
4. And we have seen in the patents the transfer of gases in the tether, chemical liquids in the tether, light in optical fibers in the tether, control signals in complex tethers, 

Thanks, Alex, for adding to the tether-transmission options. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6565 From: dave santos Date: 6/15/2012
Subject: Re: One wire electricity transfer for needs of Airborne Wind Turbine
A clarification: By "High Frequency", lets be sensitive to context. In the separate case of mechanical high-frequency vibration of tethers we are considering, at most, kilohertz. In the case of "One Wire" operation, gigahertz is typical. Also, lets not conflate power with signaling applications, as the two are quite different, and power is our focus.

My studied conviction is that nothing at present even comes close to the power and simplicity of mechanical transmission, and the many freakish options are just interesting side shows until real world performance in any analogous app is evident. One wire is worth testing if only to confirm mainstream engineering pessimism for the doubters. I think Alex will find that the weight* of the airborne transformer  is considerable, comparable to the odd choice of a low-efficiency Savonius turbine over a high performance HAWT in terms of a handicap. Testing the "best of breed" options alongside the weak oddball contenders quickly settles any doubt. I am sure Alex will sort all this out soon; he is a very fast learner and capable experimenter.

*Weight-to-power as the top predictor of AWES kite efficiency

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6566 From: Bob Stuart Date: 6/16/2012
Subject: Re: One wire electricity transfer for needs of Airborne Wind Turbine
This was long on time, and short on information.  Perhaps you could read from a script, and just publish it for those on slow links, or wanting to fit it in a filing system?  What voltages and frequencies are you using?  Are you heating up the line?  Pushed to the max, you'd have lightning, na?  It tends to be hard on the apparatus.  

Bob Stuart

On 14-Jun-12, at 1:09 PM, Muzhichkov wrote:


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6567 From: dave santos Date: 6/16/2012
Subject: Big ArchKite Update From Texas, w/ final plan link
Hello All,

Construction of the +300m2 Mothra1 "50 tarp" kite continues nicely, but slowed by major design refinements, and the final working out of every small detail. The latest specs are better than initially imagined, and future assembly times of follow-on versions still look to be very fast. The final main wing plan is quite long, 200ft, with an AR of about 10.  A central body with a double-tapered bamboo spar is the primary AoA stabilizer and landing control, with many kitey features.. The wingtips taper into tri-sails. The overall kite will arch over its entre kite window power zone, covering it by a series of halyards able to lift strings of WECS, antennas, cameras, and many other payloads. Two drogues tension the lower power zone. Many cheap common materials are used, so the Kite serves as a competitive DIY proving ground, a testbed aviation platform for hundreds of subtests. Any sub-element can be replaced in minutes (most even hot-swapped in flight someday).

The KiteLab Austin Team includes Ed Sapir, a multidisciplinary engineer and manager, Pablo Ortiz II as a giant-kite master, Bob Wolf, as prototype mechanic, Tom Lupton as master machinist, John Borheim as a consulting Test Engineer, and Brooks Coleman helping with WEC parts. We have really worked out the making common tarps and rope into wings, hacking ordinary tarps into high-performance sails with just scissors, high-adhesion tape, poly-line, and grommets. The tape is wonderful stuff, 3M High Adhesion fabric tape, and can quickly make crow's foot loadpatches or long loadpaths. A few hundred soft-shackles attach/detach the tarps to the major rope loadpaths, which have no knots or splices to weaken them. The secondary cross-lines are poems in knotwork, a sort rigger's Quipu.

The flying tackle is sweet, an colorfully anodized armload of climbing and rigging carabiners, snatch blocks, eights, and rings. A key control is modulation of the the tail and centerwing AoA, with a critical spec to not to allow the wing to crash by any single failure-point. The solution is that the kite has a default minimum AoA, and the "power-up" AoA control operates "on top of" the default rigging. The ground tackle manifests strength at a glance. The Kite/Hay Farm's Soil Anchors are 12" 3/8 steel plates with a 10,000lb working load eyebolt and 1/2" wire rope pendants. The beach operations Sand Anchors are incredibly robust "tear-out tarps" custom made for us, a real investment. To save over a full anchor circle, a triangle of anchors with a 3/8" cableway trolley between two legs allows weathercocking the rig up to 60 degrees. A 1/8" cable with a 40-to-1 wormgear winch is used to set the tack along the trolley cable. The Kite attaches to the ground tackle via large polyester slings. Every critical components has spec-sheet defined breaking loads, and conservative working loads , with large safety factors and end-to-end redundancy. The tarps come to only about 1/10th of the base capital cost of about $3000 (all retail). The DIY ground WECs are extra, but we are close to Fort Felker's $5 a pound goal for the end-to-end AWES.

Mothra1's Maiden Flight Plan is being refined to allow for a progressive adding of sail during the session to keep things tame. Wind has held good, but summer pattern winds have long lulls between good days. The hot (40C) winds feel thin, but with turbulent convective kicks. Dave Culp says Texas inland wind is some of the roughest he's ever experienced. We should see some interesting bucking of the giant wing, but with robust recoveries. A large volunteer flight crew awaits. Best Guess is a maiden launch in a week or so.... The Kite will look awesome in the sky. The dozen 10m2 tarps are transparent, the 28 4m2 leading edge tarps and 15m2 "spinnaker" tail, blue, and the 25m2 central body, black. The 30m2 tri-sail wingtips and two drogues will be FAA-compliant conspicuity markings in orange and white. Red and white night strobes driven by RATs enable night conspicuity. Util is our prototype sponsor/investor and the name is emblazoned here and there on the wing.

Here is a link to the final configuration under construction; note the tiny human figures included for scale-  http://www.energykitesystems.net/KiteLab/Mothra/index.html 

There are process photos coming. Sorry for the wait,

daveS
KiteLab Austin
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6568 From: brooksdesign Date: 6/16/2012
Subject: Re: Big ArchKite Update From Texas, w/ final plan link
I was just getting ready to call Ed to see of my generator was going to good use. Is that what you mean by WEC?
-brooks
________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6569 From: dave santos Date: 6/16/2012
Subject: Re: Big ArchKite Update From Texas, w/ final plan link
Yo Brooks,

WEC is kinda irregular; the common usage is WECS, for Wind Energy Conversion System. We hope to easily max out that ~4000 generator you scored us, somehow, we have a couple top options to test. Most of the other WECS workcells (each one unique) are 1kW or less, but it adds up to a scale kite farm. Swing by next time you hit town.

daveS
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6570 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 6/17/2012
Subject: Aiming: 500 MW flygen by Dutch group
Advantages:smoothed production,space optimization without risk of
messes.This system is close to the solution for HAWE,but not quite the
solution (too many difficulties,particulary for stability of both
rings,electronical control being not enough for reliability).By soon I
will give the solution or a way to approach it.

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6571 From: Dan Date: 6/17/2012
Subject: The Future Climate
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6572 From: Doug Date: 6/18/2012
Subject: Re: Aiming: 500 MW flygen by Dutch group
I do not understand this post.
What is it talking about?


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6573 From: Doug Date: 6/18/2012
Subject: Re: The Future Climate
Impending tipping point? We heard that in the '70's and early '80's:
Everyone was going to starve to death and the world was about to enter a new ice age. Since then, severe poverty and starvation have been almost wiped out worldwide, and nobody is worried about an ice age this week.

So if "scientists" and "big organizations" make "big predictions" that turn out to be consistently wrong, (180 degrees from reality) does anyone notice? Does anyone care? "Fooled me once?"... How many 180-degree-off predictions do you need to hear before you see the pattern?

The more recent (getting a little old by now) "tipping point" was that sea levels would rise, unstoppably, as a runaway arctic ice-melting took place. (nevermind that melting arctic sea-ice is a well-understood, and long-understood, negative-feedback situation, known by the name multi-decadal oscillation, with "oscillation" being the key word implying negative, not positive, feedback).

By 2012 we were supposed to be suffering greatly from the global warming, with our cities flooding etc., as the sea-levels began rising several feet, and the maps of the world were to completely change as we lost thousands of square miles of land. Is any of this actually occurring? I leave it to you. Go visit the beach and see if anything looks any different. Ask people who own oceanfront property if they have lost any square feet yet.

So let's see, I guess this is supposed to be obvious but I just want to verify:
The relevance of this post is to let us know that green energy is important, so airborne wind energy, should an economically-viable method ever emerge, might be a way to get green power more cheaply, so this post lets us know that because green energy is important, as tghe world is about to end, then airborne wind energy is important, right?

Thanks for that. A real eye-opener.
:) Never heard anything like it before.
This is great for AWE. I am excited at this news.

If there is any such major worry, I believe it is the overfishing of our oceans. Nobody has addressed how it rearranges the total nutrient content of our oceans, and how THAT might affect climate, as well as of course biodiversity. What biological tipping points might exist as Jelly-fish take over our oceans while we now eat ugly fish from 1000-feet down as we've eliminated most of the tasty surface fish?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6574 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 6/18/2012
Subject: Re: Aiming: 500 MW flygen by Dutch group
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6575 From: harry valentine Date: 6/18/2012
Subject: Re: Aiming: 500 MW flygen by Dutch group
This seems to be the basis of a mega-size version of Selsam's multi-turbine concept.


To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 19:22:24 +0000
Subject: [AWES] Re: Aiming: 500 MW flygen by Dutch group

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6576 From: Doug Date: 6/19/2012
Subject: Re: Aiming: 500 MW flygen by Dutch group
I'd say this falls into the category of:
"We can't build even a scale model of this but by specifying the size as too big to build, we gloss over the fact that it is only a rendering/rough idea, with all those pesky details dangling...

The giant proposed size gives an automatic excuse for the obvious question: Why is it only on paper?
Well heck, build one a few feet in diameter and see how it works!

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6577 From: dave santos Date: 6/19/2012
Subject: Re: Aiming: 500 MW flygen by Dutch group
I agree with Pierre, that we are starting to see a convergence of AWE thinkers toward real megascale concepts, and Dr. Beaujean's scheme only adds to the excitement, with new engineering twists. Until now, you could still count the true gigawatt-scale AWES concepts on one hand. They are the most needed to power cities renewably. To power NYC during wind availability, you would need (in theory!) 1000 Makani M5 Jumbo Kiteplanes, but only 10 Beaujean 500s (or one custom KiteLab Group design :) )

The Beaujean design in essence is just a glorified spin-basket/bol pair. The flexible generator ring, an airborne carousel track, is a formidable engineering feat, with hardly any precedent, but worth testing at sub-scale for workability, just as Doug suggests. Its like a snakey linear mass-accellerator in motoring mode. It does not take long to start envisioning how such a method can be best done, like maybe with Roddy's airborne ring tubes made into skinny airbeam monorails. Launch is another huge challenge, as all the soft kites must take-off from "sticky" water. Options include LEI style airbeams, or special wing sections, for launching or killing, poised to initiate progressive launch. Some sort of furling might figure for both the launch sequence and storm conditions. 

This is not the final word in megascale AWE, of course, but the future is taking more definite shape for really ambitious concepts. Join the Gigawatt AWES R&D Club. The proliferation of technically-related concepts is a welcome social validation, after so many years of wilderness isolation for folks like Wayne German. The winners in the AWE gigawattage space can be seen rising over a morass of failed "crank" contenders, and will increasingly represent broad well-based consensus aerospace-engineering opinion.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6578 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 6/19/2012
Subject: Re: Aiming: 500 MW flygen by Dutch group


Indeed my opinion is in evolution.If a single multi MW AWES can be implemented the optimization of space could be better than for a kite-farm of "only" 1-5 MW where each unity must be at a tether length to the next unity.In the other hand DougS is right telling a paper GW AWES should be realized in first at small scale.Note for HarryV:the Beaujean design is quite different from Superturbine design. Beaujean design: single (in fact 2 coaxial rotors) rotor in front of wind,circumferential generator aloft,airborne design...Superturbine: several rotors at wind alpha angle for only one shaft working a ground generator.However both Beaujean and Superturbine designs give ways for searches.My idea is to put together a large swept area and a rotating motion.What is very interesting in Beaujean's analysis is the taking account of erratic movements into a reel-farm in opposition to harmonic circular motion. 

 

PierreB 



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6579 From: Muzhichkov Date: 6/19/2012
Subject: Re: One wire electricity transfer for needs of Airborne Wind Turbine
Ok, the power supply is 12V. According to characteristics of coil, the second winding produces 2000V. Frequency of current is 10000Hz. Detail of scheme you can see here http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/afep01.htm
Today I try a 0,08 one line cable 300m long. It was in coil and may be test not correct, but the lenght of it doesn't influe of lamp light.
I haven't noticed any heating.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6580 From: roderickjosephread Date: 6/20/2012
Subject: Re: Aiming: 500 MW flygen by Dutch group
I like the fact that a large array of rotating kite components are closely tied together. That would (I'm Guessing) improve inherent stability of each single blade element as it went round the track.

however, (I don't like) having a slanted generating track in the air, the benefits of ground-gen have been discussed many times. I get the impression that we only want to be using materials to extract energy from the air, up in the air.
If it's going to be Seaborne, it's surely much easier to slant a generating track on the sea surface and have it point to the axis of rotation.
Maybe with some new light, stiff, slippy materials ...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6581 From: dave santos Date: 6/20/2012
Subject: Re: Aiming: 500 MW flygen by Dutch group
Re: Dr. Beaujean's Serpentine Generator Ring-

Beaujean gives a nice clue in referring to thin magnet sheets as an enabling basis for his flying generator ring. It does seem that new super magnets in this format really can do a lot more with less mass. Then there is the printed thin-film motor/generator coil technology of KLD Austin. An inflated "monorail and train" pasted with this stuff could work, with non-contact perhaps partly maintained by an air cushion, mag-lev, or even an oil film.

A key requirement is the close bridling of the ring to distribute tension evenly. The wing rotors could use pulley whipple-trees to distribute their "noisy" loads across the "fixed" bridling of the motor/gen-ring. It may be essential to separate the lazy-susan turret structural function from the electrical action, letting the generator elements float with faces suspended parallel to the stress, without having to take the surge forces. Certainly the bridles can be greatly "cleaned up" by a branching design, so that only three main tethers to the ocean surface suffice.

Furling does seem to be an essential function not yet addressed, but it will be. Its worth remembering that Bogey Venlo, BV, is a serious offshore engineering firm, and Dr. Beaujean is a seasoned engineer in offshore sector. Skysails and Makani now face yet another serious gigascale challenge in their offshore AWES conceptual space.

Beaujean's ideas are the sort of problems that a decade or two can solve. Its false logic Doug uses to insist something can't be done if no prototype yet exists; like arguing in 1960 that a Moon Shot would never happen for obvious lack of a working example.

coolIP
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6582 From: stefanoserra@ymail.com Date: 6/20/2012
Subject: Energy Storage Under KiteGen Perspective
A new post regarding energy storage and a "trick" available to AWE on how to solve the intermittency issue of renewable energy.

Post written by Massimo Ippolito

http://goo.gl/56biU
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6583 From: dave santos Date: 6/20/2012
Subject: Joby Motors' Wonderful Power-to-Weight Ratings
Many experimenters have found that Flygens do in fact work at small scales while still facing severe utility-scale scaling barriers. Despite very premature optimism about jumbo E-VTOL AWES, Joby Energy did come up with a winner, its small motor/generators. Makani Power and Dale Kramer have both nicely validated the Joby Motor at the small scale, but as such motors are scaled, we expect a linear degradation of the amazing Power-to-Weight ratings. Reinhart may be right to see such powerplants as a HTOL launching aid for an otherwise groundgen kiteplane scheme. KiteLab circles see potential for E-VTOL sUAS tenders to trigger staged early-launching of large kite arrays.

The Forum has discussed the thermal limits of motor/generators, but barely noted the challenge of building aviation-grade light motor casings and armatures that withstand high power. Joby's design scores high on both counts. By contrast, KLD Energy's fancy printed thin-film stator-block motor is out of contention, weighing 55lbs for 5kW. Never mind if its absolute efficiency is somehow higher, the power-to-weight sucks.

The bad news is how pricey Joby Motors are, at least double standard equivalent power-rated units that are not so light. Brushless motor power controllers are expensive as well, and cut into power-to-weight*. Prices would drop in high-production, but the early markets seem small, a chicken-and-egg problem. It may be the spin-off venture has already sadly stalled short of commercial availability-

Products - Joby Motors

www.jobymotors.com/public/views/pages/products.php
To ask questions or place an order please contact us. Sign up to be notified when Joby Motors come in stock at the Joby Robotics store ยท introducing the JM1S ...


* brushed motors have a small edge in pure power-to-weight
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6584 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 6/20/2012
Subject: Re: Aiming: 500 MW flygen by Dutch group


"Skysails and Makani now face yet another serious gigascale challenge in their offshore AWES conceptual space."The following document SkySails for Wind Turbines seems show something like a beginning of collaborative project between Beaujean's project and SkySails,and Giant airborne 'power station' could blow rivals out of the water ... shows also a contact with NorNed.

 

PierreB


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6585 From: dave santos Date: 6/20/2012
Subject: Re: Aiming: 500 MW flygen by Dutch group
Pierre, you make a good point reminding about the seeming partnership of Beaujean and SkySails, but there is a clear conflict of vision as to which approach is better; single-line many-units v. an integrated super-unit. SkySails will feel pressures to decide which general approach is favored, and not split its focus. Maybe a many-unit product can create revenue to develop the gigawatt-scale unit. In any case, we should await some signal by SkySails that they are in-fact developing Beaujean's ideas preferentially. Instead, i see Beaujean moving on a separate track, if separate websites and other indications are clues. By "competition" lets also allow megascale concepts related to Beaujean's, such as Wayne German's (and HarryV's) ideas for "vertical blind" soft wing arch concepts, which only need "marination" to be offshore contenders.

We expect as well to see a constant trend towards AWES business mergers-and-acquisitions, where erstwhile competitors become collaborators overnight, and also break-ups over biz strategy.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6586 From: Joe Faust Date: 6/21/2012
Subject: Re: Kite Sport like nothing else...
As regards early kite racing and kiteboarding.... converting  wind to useful pursuits by way of kite systems, 
we have cause in this thread to recall Dave Culp: 

 http://www.dcss.org/speedsl/gallery.html   Dave Culp early kiteboarding photo is included where the board is a waterski, thus" waterskiing with kite as propulsion. 

And especially notice the note and photo on topic:  QUOTE:
And last, lest you think Cory Roeseler was the only one doing it, here's me water skiing behind a single Flexifoil 12 footer, off Pittsburg, California in 1990.                 End QUOTE
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6587 From: dave santos Date: 6/21/2012
Subject: Passive Control: Emergent Synchrony from Coupled Chaotic Oscillators
An old KiteLab Ilwaco AWES Theory-of-Operation is that collections of chaotic single kite oscillators are best sychronized by passive coupling into networks, thereby potentially easing farm-scale control challenges. Field experiments with many fighter kites on one line and cross-linked wingmills are positive cases of group synchrony. Future kite farms may even fire "passively" in smooth metachrony. Actuation would mostly be small tuning inputs for well-formed energy outputs. 

Its not that anyone insists on avoiding conventional autonomous control for AWES, but that passive methods seem superior in almost every way, and therefore cries-out for due R&D.

Third party validation of such poorly understood control ideas is growing-

Synchronization of chaos - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronization_of_chaos
Synchronization of chaos is a phenomenon that may occur when two, or more, chaotic oscillators are coupled. Because of the exponential divergence of the ...

Passive Control is deep stuff- 

[PDF] 

Passive control theory I

www-ma4.upc.edu/~carles/Passive%20Control%20Theory%20I.pdf
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
Passive control theory I. Carles Batlle. II EURON/GEOPLEX Summer School on. Modeling and Control of Complex. Dynamical Systems. Bertinoro, Italy, July ...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6588 From: Joe Faust Date: 6/23/2012
Subject: Concept study
Harry Valentine gives us something to study:  Contra-Rotating Airborne Wind Turbine Concept

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6589 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 6/23/2012
Subject: Re: Concept study

Is it a non-tethered AWES (a little like some realizations from Selsam's serpentine)?

 

PierreB




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6590 From: harry valentine Date: 6/23/2012
Subject: Re: Concept study
The groundgen version can operate with Selsam serpentine technology

The flygen version may be a tethered concept .  .  .  . .   perhaps an expanded version of Beaujean's 500MW concept.


Harry


To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 16:40:03 +0200
Subject: re: [AWES] Concept study

 

Is it a non-tethered AWES (a little like some realizations from Selsam's serpentine)?
 
PierreB





Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6591 From: roderickjosephread Date: 6/25/2012
Subject: How J E Gordon might build an inflated ring of kites
Use a cell of cells, with glueing between layers, containment of bubble cells with cross woven structures and a wet glue to provide adhesion and flexion.

Starting at the very inside of the torus..
use a fish tank bleed pipe, tie the free end in a large loop. The other end is connected to a non porous flexible pipe. This will be our artery to supply the correct density gas to our ring.
Next a layer of fine bubble wrap is wound like a toroidal coil onto the ring. As bubble wrap overlaps itself it is glued to itself.
A few layers of Cling film are pulled as a flat layer around the outside of the ring then a layer of cling film toroidal coil wound onto the ring.
Now larger scale bubble wrap is woven onto the ring. clockwise coil layers, anti clockwise layers, flat layer outside, flat layer inside. with wet spray on photo mounting glue between the layers.

As you build up the ring it will be necessary to burst bubbles on the inside to keep the volume down. Bursting the top skin of the bubbles is not a problem. (alternatively custom made bubble wrap would have bubble size diameters matched to the weaving process)

Another layer or two of dry bubble wrap.
A good Dusting of talcum powder.
Now compress the ring with your doughnut shaped bag.
A bag made of stiff, light cross weave, uv stopping rip stop.
Mount your kites on the bag.
keep pumping lighter than air gas in the artery.
fly and gather some energy.

Bubble wrap has some excellent properties to recommend it.

Daisy funding on pleasefund.us was very slow and didn't make the target... more as a product of my marketing manner I suspect.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6592 From: roderickjosephread Date: 6/25/2012
Subject: Re: How J E Gordon might build an inflated ring of kites
It would be good if custom built bubble wrap not only had adaptable bubble size profiles but also a range of fluid filling and wrap material options.
Also if your bleed pipe was set inside sticky gel, as repair gas is emitted it helps push repair fluid around.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6593 From: Bob Stuart Date: 6/25/2012
Subject: Re: How J E Gordon might build an inflated ring of kites
Well, maybe, except when J.E. Gordon describes something, I know what he is talking about.

Bob Stuart

On 25-Jun-12, at 12:54 AM, roderickjosephread wrote:


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6594 From: roderickjosephread Date: 6/25/2012
Subject: Re: How J E Gordon might build an inflated ring of kites
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6595 From: Bob Stuart Date: 6/25/2012
Subject: Re: How J E Gordon might build an inflated ring of kites
Still not getting your image.  What is "fish-tank tubing?"  Perforated?  Periodically, or generally?  The picture probably also needs more words, or pictures, for transfer.

Bob Stuart

On 25-Jun-12, at 5:16 AM, roderickjosephread wrote:


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6596 From: roderickjosephread Date: 6/25/2012
Subject: Re: How J E Gordon might build an inflated ring of kites

Apologies for my poor description skills Bob. 

I bet J E Gordon had a good editor and time on his side.

 

Advice: technical descriptions, written whilst preparing child's lunches & preschoolers windsurfing lessons in Gaelic is not a good idea.

 

I was trying to describe a novel construction method for my torus based kite rings.

In particular I was describing the torus ring component.

I'm aiming to create a product with a useful mix of rigidity, flexibility and durability. And ideally the component is lighter than air, can be made from off-the-shelf parts, and repair itself too. 

 

We previously discussed the strength, lightness and durability benefits of inflated multi cellular structures. I have tried to evolve this architecture into my torus designs. 

 

The description I gave previously, built the torus from the inside out. 

 

Dissecting the structure:

From the outside in, you would observe a tightly inflated ring shaped bag.

 

The bag has tether points around its circumference, front and back.

At one point a small flexible hose enters the bag through a gland. 

 

The bag is woven from crossed fibres. Long fibres reach around the ring circumference. Shorter fibres cross the longer fibres, and reach around the ring sectional circumference.

 

Underneath the tightly inflated external skin, a layer of talcum powder allows the skin to slip over a non-permeable membrane.

 

Underneath the non-permeable membrane, tightly wound and glued layers of bubblewrap.  The compression from the external skin keeps gaps between the bubble cells to a minimum.

 

Cutting further into the bubblewrap layers, a layer of sticky gel encases the hose.

 

The hose has continued through the layers, to inside the sectional centre of the ring. The hose runs all the way around inside centre of the ring. Here in the very centre of the ring, the hose has small perforations.

 

The hose acts as a feed line pumping lighter than air bubbles into the sticky gel. This way, small amounts of gel are pushed under gas pressure toward leaks. Almost like sap from heartwood protecting exterior layers of a tree.

 

Bubblewrap filled with lighter than air gas would be a bonus.

 

I hope that description makes more sense. Please critique it. I'll try and supply a drawing soon.

 

Roddy.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6597 From: Bob Stuart Date: 6/25/2012
Subject: Re: How J E Gordon might build an inflated ring of kites
Perhaps you are writing "underneath" where "within" would be more appropriate.  And does "middle" refer to the center of the hole, or the circle defining the primary dimension of the torus?  

In any event, I think that any shapes we put up should be reasonably efficient as wings.  It was the bulk of just the wires and struts that doomed the biplane, as much as the interference between the wings.  The higher the percentage of wind resistance you incur for the sake of a light-weight structure, the lower your practical wind speed.  Hang  gliders, being slow, reverted to the use of rigging.  Can't you maintain a ring of kites using directed aerodynamic reactions?  Spinners seem to manage it.

Bob Stuart

On 25-Jun-12, at 7:25 AM, roderickjosephread wrote:


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6598 From: roderickjosephread Date: 6/25/2012
Subject: Re: How J E Gordon might build an inflated ring of kites
good tips on efficient accurate writing thanks Bob.

"that any shapes we put up should be reasonably efficient as wings. "
I mostly agree,
but in considering
"Can't you maintain a ring of kites using directed aerodynamic reactions?"
We all want it and yes,
 purely soft structures can reliably inflate and rotate.
Maintaining an ability to taking power from them. I think that makes the problem a bit more complex.

If kites are set to drive a soft band around, the band still has to be held across the wind at the extents of the kite travel.

Scaling and lifting  spinners becomes complex.

The power dynamics of an arched ribbon are too hard for me to see how they will drive large powers.

I don't think a pure ring of kites will be able to drive power as reliably as kites driving a stiffened ring component.

If the stiffened ring component is buoyant enough to lift the kites and tether it carries;
Then a stack of ring components can reach vertically upward in calm weather.
The stack of components will always be in tension ready to transfer torque.

A balance will exist between factors of torus dimensions, filling buoyancy, bag weight, ring stiffness, diameter needed for torque. 
The ring will tend to be compressed as torque is sent downward. The whole tower will bend over in strong winds. kites will rip off.

I have no idea where the balance is. I'm keen to find out.
Limited resources force me to try and guess before experimenting.
I'll let you know as soon as I do.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6599 From: dave santos Date: 6/28/2012
Subject: Inflated rings as kites
I think Roddy's versions of giant inflated rings have considerable potential in AWES design. The ring acts as a furling aid for the parafoil extensions, and may even provide suitable structure for a novel giant annular generator as Beaujeans envisions. Such a radical generator avoids a lot of the mass-scaling penalty of giant conventional generators.

Having given long pondered inflated rings as kite structure, plus decades of study and practice of ring wings, it seems to me that an optimal configuration is a concentric ring structure so as to end up with a pierced or open disc in over all geometry. Such a "flying saucer" disc is then able to act as a decent wing, not too thick in proportion to chord. The simplest instance of this is an inflated ring with membrane infill, but a number of nestled rings could make a nice Aerobie style flying ring on a grand scale. Various throwing toys suggest the viability of this form factor.

A "tube wing" made of tandem inflated rings, a la Altaeros, also has interesting uses, but the flying angle of the tube disc plane, for aerodynamic lift, cancels HAWT autogyro-lift  usage.

coolIP
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6600 From: Joe Faust Date: 6/28/2012
Subject: Laser as lightning guide
U.S. Army weapon shoots lightning bolts down laser beams

Laser-Induced Plasma Channel

Thought that title might get your attention, but shooting lightning bolts down laser beams is just what a device being developed at the Picatinny Arsenal military research facility in New Jersey is designed to do. Known as a Laser-Induced Plasma Channel, or LIPC, the device would fry targets that conduct electricity better that the air or ground that surrounds them by steering lightning bolts down a plasma pathway created by laser beams.

==============

How might AWES make peace with LIPC ?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6601 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 6/28/2012
Subject: Re: Inflated rings as kites

Indeed good perspectives.But for keeping a good profile high pressure is needed.Do you think it is possible for soft or inflatable wings to compete with rigid blades?

 

PierreB




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6602 From: Robert Copcutt Date: 6/28/2012
Subject: Re: Inflated rings as kites
On Thu, 2012-06-28 at 09:02 -0700, dave santos wrote:
Dave,

It is not clear what you were trying to say there. It seems to me
inflated tubular wings are the best way to make a large light wing.
Inflated toroids can be very stiff for a given mass. Consider a bicycle
tire. The aerodynamic wing is made from a series of toroids behind each
other (in tandem as you say).

Hargrave found that 2 tubes (or boxes) 1 behind the other was more
stable. A kite with 4 tubes in a square arrangement, and 3 tethers,
could be adjusted to provide lift in almost any situation. That is what
I was talking about in my post on 17th May.

By the way, some video of the kite tests we did has now been added to
http://visventis.org/

Robert.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6603 From: dave santos Date: 6/28/2012
Subject: Re: Inflated rings as kites
Robert, sorry for the confusion, but there are two major kinds of ring wings- (1) those with the center-axis along the apparent wind direction (shaped like a napkin ring much like Altaeros' duct, a Circoflex, or Reinhart's ring kite) and (2) flat disc wings with the axis set vertical (like Aerobie throwing ring). Both work well in specific applications. A vast almost flat wing made of concentric inflated rings is proposed as an optimization of Rod's single ring torus.

Pierre, Adequate high pressure inflation of wings is easy for Ram-Air; as ram pressure increases proportionally to velocity. Only a slight overpressure of a small fraction of an atmosphere is enough to make a firm enough wing for high speed flight. Ordinary blimps travel "fairly fast" (~50kts) with less than .01 ATM of Helium pressure.

I still think the ram-air wing is the greatest advance in megascale weight-to-lift in our time, with the singleskin wing second, and the closed-cell inflated wing third, owing to the need for active inflation pumping. Hard wings will be long limited to mere jumbo-jet scale, far smaller than future soft wings. I think future ram parafoils will fly rather faster than Dave Culp conservatively imagines, even beyond 150kts, after seeing so much advancement in new race kites in just a few years. Nothing scales like a soft wing.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6604 From: Bob Stuart Date: 6/28/2012
Subject: Re: Inflated rings as kites
If ram air is not of sufficient pressure for some parts, it should be simple to use a ram-air turbine to put out any pressure desired, with the same benefits of pressure available always matching the pressure needed.  Inflated parts are not subject to the same square-cube scaling laws as other structures, being still essentially all-tension construction.  This makes their adoption quite beneficial for large, light, rugged construction.   Rapid "assembly" from compact storage is a further benefit.  Members can even be extended or retracted to change the kite area, keeping tether power constant.  

Bob Stuart

On 28-Jun-12, at 8:16 PM, dave santos wrote:


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6605 From: dbmurr@ymail.com Date: 6/28/2012
Subject: Re: Inflated rings as kites
Hello all, great topic. I found your group from a link and recommendation on Roderick Read's kitepowercoop.org site.
Soft, inflated, milticellular kite parts with variable pressure control to individual groups of cells can greatly simplify the flight controls of larger kite structures.
I have worked on several inflated ring/rotor kite designs that may help forward this discussion. I've posted two of my early sketches of designs that relate somewhat to Roderick's ring kites & some of Dave Santos' comments at flyinground.com
I hope this helps the development of this kite type.
Regards, db murray


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6606 From: John Oyebanji Date: 6/28/2012
Subject: Re: Inflated rings as kites
Thanks, Murray. You are most welcomed. Quite a fascinating introduction of your person.
JohnO
John Adeoye Oyebanji;
CEO, Hardensoft International
President-protem, Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association - AWEIA International

From: "dbmurr@ymail.com" <dbmurr@ymail.com
Sender: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 04:35:20 -0000
To: <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AWES] Re: Inflated rings as kites

 

Hello all, great topic. I found your group from a link and recommendation on Roderick Read's kitepowercoop.org site.
Soft, inflated, milticellular kite parts with variable pressure control to individual groups of cells can greatly simplify the flight controls of larger kite structures.
I have worked on several inflated ring/rotor kite designs that may help forward this discussion. I've posted two of my early sketches of designs that relate somewhat to Roderick's ring kites & some of Dave Santos' comments at flyinground.com
I hope this helps the development of this kite type.
Regards, db murray


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6607 From: roderickjosephread Date: 6/29/2012
Subject: Re: Inflated rings as kites
Today, I tried compressing a cellular sausage in a section of my torus bag.
The sausage was made from rolled up, large cell, bubble wrap.

The resultant structure was moderately firm.
I'd say firm enough to hold a balanced array of kites around the torus in a moderate+ wind.
The sausage was too small a diameter to be well compressed... video to follow. I'll redo the test with a thicker sausage too.

I could sit and jump on the bag without any bubbles bursting.
With a foot on the front of the bag and a hand pulling one end up...
The bag would bend progressively with effort. 5kg ish at 1m ish gave about 10cm. Still no popping.

I'm going to order some larger cell air cushions... commonly used as packaging void fill and available everywhere.
I do approve of this brand name.

Typically LEI kite bladders are inflated around 6psi. 
Could a ram air kite approach that pressure internally as it went faster?
If so an open cell construction for the mounting torus rings is feasible. 
There is a way to make an interlinking cell structure where some cells inside the torus could inflate with ram air kite pressure ... the other (earlier inflation) cell set would inflate with torus leading edge vented pressure.

hmmmm

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6608 From: Joe Faust Date: 6/29/2012
Subject: Self-inflating air beam?
Desired: 
Air beam that brings air into itself from the ambient air because of the design of a membrane that just likes to transport air molecules (or nitrogen molecules) in just one direction (inward to the interior of the air beam).   Pressure-relief valve could keep the air beam from over-pressurization. 
Anyone?

Note: I have a cheering stick (Thunder stix, thunder stick, cheer sticks, ...} air beam  that has for years kept shape; it just does not seem to lose shape; it just keeps it shape year after year, hot days, cold days; have not needed to deliberate inflate the stick.  I have suspected without proof that the plasticizers  of the vinyl mix with the air inside and then perhaps the partial pressures inside are such that portions of air (? nitrogen or oxygen) keep going through the wall to bring balance. Not sure.  I have been delighted that the stick just goes and goes and goes ...with the same shape without deflating, without going flat. 
Cheering-Sticks
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6609 From: dave santos Date: 6/29/2012
Subject: Kite Energy for NYC Update: AWEs Forum entry disqualified by LAGI Ru
The incorporation of WOWUSA as a New York City based AWE investment house spurred instant local founders' interest in the Fresh Kills landfill recovery site as a major Kite Energy farm. Renewables was a formal planning priority, but conventional wind towers were precluded by unstable terrain. Kites were seen as an ideal option. It was learned a contest for "Energy LandArt" had coincidentally been launched by a Pittsburg arts organization, LAGI. These developments were covered in the Forum more or less as they happened.

A few AWE developers and tech artists expressed interest in the LAGI NYC Energy LandArt contest, and proceeded to brainstorm perhaps the strongest concept of all, but LAGI technical rules forbid prior public disclosure by competitors, disqualifying all open-source creative culture.  The sharing of notes below violate the rule, in hope that a public dynamic is the better creative bargain. The LAGI Contest process could fail by its shortcomings and contradictions, and the results are not binding on NYC. Lets hope many great talents and ideas emerge from the LAGI contest in an inclusive way.

The open "PlanNYC" AWES concept thus continues as a cooperative or competitive option with whatever LAGI ends up with. The City of New York will consider all options by a long exhaustive process before acting, so we have a few more years to develop a real Kite Energy plan, with Art to boot...

Here are the notes to date, but the images from several sources are pending. There is a final push to meet the contest deadline, albeit under protest over the rules.

===============================================

Fresh-K LAGI LandArt Proposal Notes 

AWES Forum Draft Concepts (unedited and pending final ideas)

Mission- 

A robust "best practice" model for Energy LandArt  on recovered landfills spread by popular demand worldwide.

Environmental Impact Statement- 

This design proposal has as its uncompromising goal the ultimate longterm remediation of Fresh Kills, with the best practices supported by the power of Art. Every detail is aimed toward the lowest possible adverse impacts on wildlife and the naturalistic character of the site recovery. The key technical and aesthetic sculptural means are minimal-mass monumental, with almost 100% recycled and salvaged material with a sound decommissioning and upgrading strategy.

Sculptural Presence-

The monumental sculpture is evolutionary over time. From a small seed, it grows like a flower to fulfill every wish LAGI has posed. The LandArt sculptural dimensionality will derive from the massive 3D presence of the landfill. A monumental sculptural presence will be developed in the sky over time.

Site Analysis

Fresh Kills is a mega-scale New York City former landfill in recouperation as a major public park. The Energy 
LandArt Contest is in the planning mix, but legacy conditions constrain allowable activity.  The site is visible in the distance from large areas of the city, and would be especially conspicuous in the case of proposed aerial lightshows. A cultural superpower like New York has the vigor and multidisciplinary excellence to integrate High Art and Energy Sustainability, on a grand scale.

The landfill terrain is a prominent hill covered with grass. The extensive fill surface is in ongoing subsidence; fragile and unstable. New structure is relegated to site margins, outside the landfill proper and limited to features that do not compete with the naturalistic character of the greater park.

Engineering Integration

The specific LandArt methods require approval of the site's engineering authorities. In brief, allowable activity on the landfill is low-risk, easily-reversible, low-impact (literally: no heavy vehicles or structures). 

Within such constraints many creative activities can thrive, especially Crop Art, Open-air Dance, Theatre, Light-Shows, Soft-Goods (fabric, inflatables). These modalities can be tested and refined during a pastiche phase and perfected 
over time into a mature masterpiece, fully integrated as megascale energy engineering.

There are hundreds of landfills worldwide that might adopt a successful NYC Energy LandArt Model.


Art Program Social Dynamics- Global Community

A bad LandArt contest outcome would be elitist and overly-minimalist, a sort of "Neo-Stalinist Monument", an 
overpriced oversold unloved "Neutron Bombed" megawork of banal modernism, a static work in fatal decay 
cleansed of any popular public participation. The ideal outcome would be a cultural miracle, a 
techinogical and artistic tour-de-force to help bring a world together and makes a definite contribution 
to human energy ecology.

This submission supposes multidisciplinary teamwork under cooperative non-profit governance, with deep 
community roots and values. New York's unexcelled culture offers a potent hosting dynamic for top world 
talent, for a "Team Earth" vibe. 

Schools, engineering, scientific, and artistic professions, artists,

A not-for-profit board balanced by broad stakeholder participation. Total transparency of planning and funding.

Integrated educational participation, from kindergarden to elite universities. "Elders" are tasked 
with mentoring real creative opportunities for the young, in large numbers. 


Volunteer staff operating under cooperative guidelines, paid by shared excellence, by esprit. They balance the 
paid-management technocratic viewpoint.

Tourism, jobs, and other benefits are expected outcomes of a sucessful program. Tourism and jobs would 
follow the Arts, with a few hundred energy jobs possible longterm.

A populist vibe could include an equitable role for "High Art", as represented by leading 
cultural institutions such as Museums. These institutions would take a leading role in partnering the art.
An Artist-in-Residence program would channel particpation by visiting "star" artists.

Valued roles should be maintained for donors, suitable corporate partnerships, and permissible 
commercial activity. A long list of contributors, small business members, and diversified revenue sources 
would be ideal. No one interest should predominate the "commons".


Energy Technology Notes

This proposal calls for an early low impact phase of crop LandArt by modulating the current mowing activitie to create guest art. The hay crop would be managed as an experimental energy fuel and sequestered carbon (as biochar). Follow-on phases would be increasingly ambituous, but the crop art would remain as part of the landfill management.

The site is already a significant methane energy production site. Conventional wind towers are precluded 
by the sub-surface conditins. A calculable amount of solar energy is present, by area available and 
climate, but options for solar are limited by the landfill condition. Biomass solar, the harvesting of 
a plant crop for energy is the least impact of any option, and forms the initial basis for this proposal.

The biggest site energy resource remains to consider; the Upper Wind energy 
resource. Airborne Wind Energy is a rapidly developing field, and New York is already identfied as an ideal 
location by climatologists [2]

A risk is to over-committ to a narrow energy production strategy that ends up 
badly inferior to future solutions. A flexible cautious approach to the energy-art mix 
offers multiple migration paths to eventual best practice for renewable energy.

An Energy Hybrid technical ecology best addresses site constraints and future 
uncertainty. Here Art serves ecological and societal urgencies, even to the point of 
self-cancelation. The Art would still live on as a cultural memory, as media.


As a varied parade of artwork, both popular and pushing boundaries, minimal "positive" guidelines may 
suffice to balance individual artisitc freedom with the evolving standards of global community. Most 
important would be the diversity of human voices over the narrow narratives of special interests.

Techne Concept- Art and science-technology as an integrated human


Lowest Embodied Energy-

Crop Art is identified as the simplest and least capital intensive artistic medium to begin the 
Energy LandArt project. Besides a Camp association with hoaxed "alien crop circles", serious artists 
doing immpressive work with living plants are known, and a long succession of such works on the 
landfill mound would surely provide some amazing Art.


Grass as Solar Energy. Feed Animals, such as NYC's Zoo animals. Biogas as a 

Low Mass, Recyclable, Art From Salvage, 


Botanical Art as Solar Biomass

Biochar as CO2 sequestration, used to regenerate humus in degraded soils.


Subject to all applicable standards, eventual integration is forseen of LandArt biogas into the 
methane grid by an approved connection.This may be as simple as connecting into an existing check-valve. 
There is no requirement or haste that this integration occur, should implimentation prove burdensome.
Dynamic and evolutionary path to a grand result

Rich Open Complexity, Multidisciplinary, Best Technical Practices

Music, Land Arts, and Theatre

Hill Geometry as Theatre-in-the-Round.The public No-Go Zone is thus recouped for enjoyment by all
Human Actors and Artbots acting together to manage operations,

SkyArt Kites
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6610 From: dbmurr@ymail.com Date: 6/29/2012
Subject: Re: Inflated rings as kites
Thanks John,
Good to meet you here. I see your work on the web. We share similar interests. I am also working on energy, food & water issues, and will post over time at agronautics.com if you wish to look sometime in the future.
For the AWE group I plan on further related kite/energy postings at flyinground.com & look forward to more discussions.
Regards, db murray


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 6611 From: Robert Copcutt Date: 6/29/2012
Subject: Re: Inflated rings as kites
Dave,

It was clear the first time that you were talking about 2 different
ring wing concepts. What is still not clear is why you think the tubular
wing concept has a problem with its flying angle.

It seems to me that the tubular type will need fewer tethers than the
disc type, and have better directional stability.

Ram-air can only provide limited pressure (for a given air velocity).
For manually piloted kites, where a large drag coefficient has
advantages, that is OK. When we finally manage to make automated AWE
systems we will need lower drag coefficients. To achieve that the
inflated support structures will need to be at much higher pressures.
Probably several bar.

To inflate a bladder energy is needed. With ram-air it comes from the
wind. When higher pressures are needed the only option is to do the
pumping on the ground. Doing any active pumping in the air would require
extra airborne mass which cuts performance and adds cost. As Joe's
cheering sticks clearly illustrate, we have the technology to make light
bladders that leak at a negligible rate.

Robert.