Hello all,

Seaglider is back for the summer, here is the last test flight completed by Eloi Rondeau and Rapace Kites.

you will see magnificient's flights on the second part on the video :

http://vimeo.com/40450870

have a look on www.seaglider.fr  and on facebook and our sponsors who support us to create all those flights !

 

have fun ,

Stephane Rousson
Tel : 00 33 (0)6 03 83 82 76
www.rousson.org
www.scubster.org
www.seaglider.fr

http://www.stockspecialists.com/stock-report/sefe/

It's funny to read what these companies have to say. Sounds like most "new" wind energy technology companies' literature, in that it likes to cite a lot of facts, then they insert their own (made-up) figures, making their own (made-up) figures look like they are facts too! How clever.

So they have a graph that shows the cost of generating electricity by various methods, and magically, their (projected) method comes in cheaper (in the future) on the same graph! Now if you asked them to actually provide that electricity at that cost they could not do it. No that would be "a future thing". Of course. Please understand. Right now, I'm sure, just like most idiots promoting superior yet unmeasured wind energy technologies, all they can probably offer is words. In fact most of these companies could not produce a single watt if their life depended on it.

This has the "flavor" of either a scam or idiots who cannot tell reality from a hole in the ground in which to pour one's money.

I'm not saying it IS a scam, just reads like so many - has that flavor, to my eye - just an off-the cuff opinion. I mean, if you really have a way to get electricity at half the price, do you HAVE to list uses for that electricity, or list potential customers - (military, resorts, etc.)? I mean, hello, if you can generate electricity at half the price, you don't need to wonder whom your customers will be - try something called an electric utility. Or sell the technology to G.E., Siemens, or Westinghouse. I mean get real. Yup we' can list CUSTOMERS for ELECTRICITY - Bet you didn;t know there was a MARKET for electricity did you? Well now you have been informed. There is a market, there are customers, so that PROVES this new technology can deliver electricity to those customers at half the price. Follow my logic? Good. I'd be disappointed if you did. Idiots, all of them, EEEEEdiots.... but I digress Hello?

Yeah sure, just like so many of the nascent airborne projects talked about here: "Well the economics wouldn't work in America, since here the concept is clearly a loser compared to what already exists, but perhaps in the middle of the jungle, where there's nothing better to compare it to, and if it is funded by some organization with access to "other peoples' money" that doesn't know any better...)

Nevertheless, I, as probably most of you, remain curious as to whether there could be any way in which something like this COULD work - harvesting static electricity from the sky - or lightning, or whatever. Sounds tempting of course. I know a few of us have a pretty decent physics and even aerospace background, while others of us are lucky we are locked in our Mom's basement so we can't fall out the window and get hurt. ;)

To any and all of us, what do you think of the possibility to extract electricity directly from the static-electric or lightning-like charges that naturally occur in the atmosphere? I think we've broached this topic before.

Does our Den-Mother, Christina Archer, have any insights into this possible static-electricity aspect of Airborne Wind Energy? By the way if it would not be too much trouble, could she please bake some cookies for us next time? :)

What altitudes might give the most power?

"Captain, We've GOT ta have More Power!"

:)
Doug Selsam

The price of NatGas in China is $16.
Here it's under $2, and heading lower.
Our new energy crisis: Too much NatGas.
We don't know what to do with it.
Cheap NatGas translates to cheap electricity.
While burning more NatGas than we actually use may be considered bad for global warming, unburned NatGas (methane) has 25 times the Greenhouse Effect as CO2.
Anyway since this forum is about generating electricity less expensively, our new target price must be lower now than it was just a few years ago due to figgin' frackin'.

:)
Doug Selsam

Thanks, Rod.   Contrails: "found a net warming effect."

The report Rod linked to was from before 9/11. After 9/11 all flights
were stopped for a few days. Over that short time a slight warming was
detectable. Therefore contrails cause a net cooling effect.

Yes ROI ROI ROI.

I see differences in our viewpoints that has led us to different conclusions. It seems that your working to get the most from low wind speeds that I have chosen to ignore. The whole point of going higher is to get away from those low wind speeds. low wind speeds are far more expensive to harvest. I believe there is an ideal target windspeed for a given turbine system at a specific location. I think we naturally tend to design for the locations that we are thinking of at the moment. The location in my mind seems to be windier and more remote than the one your thinking of.

You seem to be attempting to optimize ground space usage while keeping kites from having any possibility of conflicting. I believe that ground space is not that big an expense compared to the rest of the system, and that the control systems will mature to allow much closer spacing. We let kids drive on the public roads at some experience level. So will we let robot kites fly together.

As to the hole in the middle. Regular wind turbines are less efficient toward the middle of the hub. The tips do most of the work. I do think that some of your proposals make better use of this space but at the expense of less efficient use of the wind passing through this space. If this is better ROI or not is, in my opinion, an unproven point.

Brian

The way big companies are exploiting the patent system to the
disadvantage of all smaller organisations is something that concerns
many of us. Yesterday I was able to go to a talk by a respected local
patent attorney. Many of the audience shared the above concern but he
was adamant that some of his clients would have no way to progress their
product developments without the patent system. He would say that
wouldn't he, but he does have a point. However, there is a potential
development I had not heard of:-
http://peertopatent.org/

One of the weaknesses with the CoolIP idea used here is how to inform
the patent offices that an invention claim is already covered by a post
on some arbitrary forum. Peer to patent is worth watching in case it
develops into something more powerful.

Robert.

CC :: creative commons      http://creativecommons.org/

I would have thought a ...

I know that we just disagree on this whole point but I found this publication that pertains to the discussion.
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/air/directorates_field/small_airplanes/media/CPS_Part_23.pdf

It is 90 pages so I have not read it all. But I did take away a few points. The retail cost of part 23 aircraft has increased faster than inflation by a wide margin.
The number of private pilots has dropped by 1/3. They list this as a concern but don't take credit.
The number of fatal accidents has also dropped by about 1/3. They pretty much take credit for this.

I think the drop in the number of pilots was probably the biggest reason for the drop in fatalities. That the better tech they talk about helped and the aging fleet because of the runaway regulatory costs as hurting this number. But the number is so low as to defy such broad statements in general. Mostly GA is just a hobby for the rich. As I have said before, a shadow of it's true potential.

They do make many true and insightful comments, so we can hope that they will find a system that works. I see both the proverbial baby and the bathwater here. But I think that water sure could use some changing.

Brian

Hi everybody! We know different modern (and already not very new) subcultures, like Alcoholics Anonymous :) , Emo, Science fiction fandom and so on. I think, AWE has also some kind of romantic and can be also subculture.
Most similar is surf culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surf_culture#Boardsports)

http://youtu.be/2qhRmon7lWA

These matters seem to be part of the potential plays that would deal with kite systems interfacing with solar radiation. Concerns may include but not be limited to the following: 

will rain, snow channeling and various fallout, radiation shading, falling projectile catching be considered in another thread or as past of this?

from shading the sun locally, to the loco sounding . . . Can we with enough kite geoengineer the speed of rotation of the earth to promote water movement toward the poles?
Think I may have gone too far there mu ha ha ha ha.
It is still airborne energy though. Just used globally.
The numbers may be kinda big on this but worth knowing.

It's amazing:
Every texture, every shade of color of this new "animal", how it acts, intricate rules addressing its danger, how it should be fed, and what its enclosure should consist of, visitor rules, of an as-yet still undefined "animal".

Within this dynamic, I must say it would seem that the lack of knowledge of the existing patent system neatly matches the lack of knowledge of wind energy. The blind confusing the blind.

I just fall all over myself laughing. How long ago did NASA announce an AWE effort that quickly degeneretaed into plans to crash kites for a few years?

This is silly.
An entire nascent art "on hold" while thousands of people declare they are pursuing it, while taking no targeted action. I'm as bad as the rest. Talk talk talk.
I need to make more time to get out into the shop and DO something.
Air-supported wind energy, like tower-supported wind energy, should be relatively simple at its core.
:)
Doug Selsam

Wow yeah, I lived in Huntington Beach, California (Surf City) for a few years. Surfing is definitely fun and definitely takes some effort to learn!

The analogy to AWE would be this:

Instead of thousands of people jumping into the water and catching great rides, some catching air, others doing 360's, we'd have:

A hundred people standing on shore, some dipping their toe into the water, others casting fishing lines out, talk talk talking about the power of the surf, with nary a surfboard anywhere along the entire coast.

Oh and with canoe teams out there there demonstrating exactly how to catch a wave, all day, every day. And the would-be surfers talking about every other non-workable way they can think of, to NOT catch a wave.

The difference between surfing and AWE:
People know how to surf.
:)
Doug Selsam

It seems we all are too serious and think about big energy systems to supply cities. What really attract me in AWE is view of sky, fresh wind and possibility to become huge energy.
Unfortuantly it doesn't have real extream for health, but nevertheless has enough fun. And very similar to kitesurfing.
Look for this one to find some likeness with possible AWE competition
http://youtu.be/3FFlYkckNyc

Sorry to post in haste and not make my meaning clearer. There are
companies that buy patent rights from frustrated inventors and then
aggressively demand royalties from all possible parties. How many patent
office examiners search this forum for AWE prior art? Probably none.
Therefore a patent could easily be granted for an idea previously
discussed here. Getting a patent overturned once granted is expensive.
Fighting unjust royalty claims could ruin a small company. The Peer to
Patent concept is therefore important. So far it only covers a narrow
range of subjects but I am sure Joe and others here could save examiners
a lot of time if AWE based applications were posted on the Peer to
Patent site for public comment. It could pre-empt a lot of hassle in the
future.

The other point I was meaning to make is that CoolIP is another one of
those words invented on this forum and used only here. More Jargon! More
barriers to understanding! I doubt the word serves the purpose it was
created for. Merely putting an idea in a public forum stops others
patenting it (provided the examiners find the reference). CC is mostly
about copyright which is different. My understanding is that if we want
to have a chance of stopping big companies excluding us from our own
ideas all we need to do is to post the idea here. They might succeed
anyway, but to improve our chances it is really important to make the
explanation really clear and illustrate it with clear diagrams. Millions
have been wasted in patent courts arguing about what a particular word
means and what people really meant by what what they wrote. Clarity is
king.

There is a serious problem with public disclosure that concerns me
greatly. Most venture capitalist type people want to see a patent before
they will fund a product development. Can the likes of WOW really fund
AWE development? The choice between public disclosure and patenting and
secrecy is a very difficult one to decide.

Robert.

I started that spreadsheet to help decide what tether to use on the
prototype we are actually building. Prototypes need tethers too! As I
mentioned before, in the process of preparing it I discovered 2 things.
1) Dyneema has by far the best properties.
2) Dyneema can be obtained at a reasonable price (for fishing line).
For a while I was unmotivated to finish it since it had given me the
answer I needed. I decided to finish and post it so that others could
work out what to use on their prototypes. You need to do a similar
exercise to prove whether or not it is possible to transmit the torque
of your superturbine to the ground.

Robert.

Dave S.:
No matter how many arrows leave the bow, if they are not aimed properly, they are not going to hit any particular target. I see a lot of talk. A lot more talk than action. And I don't see anyone hitting any targets. If you are shooting in the complete wrong direction, it would take a pretty interesting wind event for a target to be hot even by accident. I'm only pointing this out because I think AWE is simple and anybody serious about it would be doing it and getting results right away. I only point this out as encouragement to the rare person who might actually build something that is a workable AWE system. meanwhile I hope everyone is having fun doing whatever you are doing - flying kites and feeling that pull, etc.
:)
Doug S.

Nice Job Roderick.
:)

Third on kudos, Rod.    (how about a jargon point now!)

This thread invites descriptions, plans, examples, appraisals,  drawings, photographs, video, procedures, etc. of using discarded vehicle tires in working kite systems.  Already in UpperWindPower (this group as an adjunct to the publication) has been some mentioned uses.  Whenever you find a use in AWE for used vehicle tires (any size or type), then consider posting on topic  with replies to this thread.     http://www.globalsources.com/ST/7-Uses-For-Used-Tires.html
 http://www.thesurvivalistblog.net/tires/
 http://voices.yahoo.com/7-uses-old-used-tires-208271.html
 http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/sanders98.html
 http://www.thriftyfun.com/tf284146.tip.html
 http://www.tirecrafting.com/
 tire cutting jigsaw blade
 Inverting a tire...how?
 I authored the book "Tire Recycling Is Fun"
 http://www.vpr.arizona.edu/ror/summer02/tires.html
 http://tinyurl.com/imagesBalingTires
 Video of de-rimming and shear: http://youtu.be/xJOvdqqiKUc
 rim crusher: http://youtu.be/EKUWamJD9bs
 sidewall cutter
 tread cutter
 http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/108477
 Tire de-beaders (takes out the steel wire from the tire bead?) bead wire prior to shredding
 T-blocks (tire blocks) http://earth911.com/news/2009/01/09/a-new-use-for-recycled-tires/
 http://www.epa.state.il.us/land/tires/used-tires-facts-and-information.html
 http://www.calrecycle.ca.gov/tires/products/
 http://www.bizjournals.com/sacramento/stories/1997/04/21/story3.html?page=all

We'd get a lot more "hits" (in the web sense) if those Videos could be collectively ported to youtube... (worlds second biggest search portal)

The pictures could help do some of our valuable talking for us.

Between the pair of you two polarised grannies arguing at each other, I wonder which is the static node?

let's not discuss that but stay on track please.

And as ever, The more diagrams the better please.

Wow thanks for the response folks.

My favourite use for old tires is with two side plates and two reed valves to make a pump chamber.  There are many ways to operate this from kite power, the simplest one involving an oscillating kite design on a fairly short, stiff tether.  The pump would charge a raised reservoir, to produce electricity on demand.  If salt water is involved, this arrangement also makes the electrical hardware far cheaper.  The cost advantage of using a mooring instead of a tower is multiplied on the seabed.  The pumps could easily be arranged to float to the surface during calms with an air charge for service, or sink, while reeling in the tether to minimize the hazard to navigation.  A small hydrogen balloon might serve as a buoy and self-launch initiator.  The kite might incorporate spars that would buckle to prevent overload, and recover elastically for the next opportunity.  They can be prototyped from strips of plastic or fiberglass corrugated roofing material, and made more efficient with high-strength unidirectional fiber bonded along the peaks.

Bob Stewart response to the possible uses of tyres got me thinking...

My favourite is making shelters for lobsters... tie 4 tyres together, You fill the bottom one was concrete, sink it and it makes a great place for lobsters to live and breed. Next year you have lots of lobsters to catch.

that also got me thinking.

AWE models which use wind and unwind technology may very well be better configured to use the pulling line force to pull air underwater.
Collected underwater, air has a huge energy potential.

oops sorry not a new mode at all.
Discussed here before.
Still think it could be very efficient.
using line tension directly on a pulley set on the seafloor.

Aye, if there's no uplands handy to the coast, the underwater air-compression bladder makes sense.  I hate losing the heat of compression, but at tire-type pressures, that is not too bad, and the volume is manageable.  

Yes, cool. Roddy has now crossed the line from talking to doing. I should join you. :)

Side note
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekman_spiral
I'm sure Dave dropped that jargon in to make us go look it up. I had often wondered what caused that phenomenon. A real eye-opener for me. Now I need to work up to predicting it intuitively.

Brian

http://www.energykitesystems.net/0/KITESA/FAQelectric/glossary/index.html   
leads to a list of glossaries as well as links for our main Kite Energy Glossary sections.

Open for ever safer use of line in AWES scenes ...

http://www.ropecord.com/new/publications.php