Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                       AWES4852to4901 Page 77 of 79.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4852 From: roderickjosephread Date: 11/21/2011
Subject: Re: Joe Faust's Data Goldmine

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4853 From: roderickjosephread Date: 11/22/2011
Subject: Re: Joe Faust's Data Goldmine

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4854 From: roderickjosephread Date: 11/22/2011
Subject: Re: Joe Faust's Data Goldmine

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4855 From: roderickjosephread Date: 11/22/2011
Subject: Re: Refreshed notice for CoolIP, CoOpIP

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4856 From: dave santos Date: 11/22/2011
Subject: Turning the Sky into a MSKA Energy Gel (Masao's Intro to Gel Dynami

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4857 From: dave santos Date: 11/22/2011
Subject: The Sky as a Liquid Crystal; MSKA as the Geoengineered Version

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4858 From: dave santos Date: 11/22/2011
Subject: Engineered Megamaterial: A New Paradigm?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4859 From: Bob Stuart Date: 11/22/2011
Subject: Re: Engineered Megamaterial: A New Paradigm?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4860 From: dave santos Date: 11/22/2011
Subject: Re: Engineered Megamaterial: A New Paradigm?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4861 From: roderickjosephread Date: 11/23/2011
Subject: Re: Refreshed notice for CoolIP, CoOpIP

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4862 From: dave santos Date: 11/23/2011
Subject: Re: Refreshed notice for CoolIP, CoOpIP

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4863 From: dave santos Date: 11/23/2011
Subject: AWE at Virginia Polytechnic //Fw: Google Alert - airborne-wind-ener

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4864 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/23/2011
Subject: Re: AWE at Virginia Polytechnic //Fw: Google Alert - airborne-wind-

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4865 From: roderickjosephread Date: 11/23/2011
Subject: Re: Refreshed notice for CoolIP, CoOpIP

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4866 From: dave santos Date: 11/23/2011
Subject: Re: Refreshed notice for CoolIP, CoOpIP

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4867 From: dave santos Date: 11/23/2011
Subject: The 2012 AWE Conference (call for ideas)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4868 From: Doug Date: 11/24/2011
Subject: Re: AWE at Virginia Polytechnic //Fw: Google Alert - airborne-wind-

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4869 From: Doug Date: 11/24/2011
Subject: Re: Refreshed notice for CoolIP, CoOpIP

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4870 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/24/2011
Subject: AWEkey

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4871 From: dave santos Date: 11/24/2011
Subject: Basic Elements of 3D Kite Lattices

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4872 From: dave santos Date: 11/24/2011
Subject: Re: AWE at Virginia Polytechnic //Fw: Google Alert - airborne-wind-

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4873 From: roderickjosephread Date: 11/24/2011
Subject: Re: Basic Elements of 3D Kite Lattices

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4874 From: roderickjosephread Date: 11/24/2011
Subject: Re: Refreshed notice for CoolIP, CoOpIP

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4875 From: roderickjosephread Date: 11/25/2011
Subject: Re: Refreshed notice for CoolIP, CoOpIP

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4876 From: dave santos Date: 11/25/2011
Subject: Terrawatt Scale Geoflow Energy Megaprojects: A Draft "Kite Manifesto

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4877 From: dave santos Date: 11/25/2011
Subject: Re: Refreshed notice for CoolIP, CoOpIP

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4878 From: roderickjosephread Date: 11/25/2011
Subject: Re: Refreshed notice for CoolIP, CoOpIP

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4879 From: roderickjosephread Date: 11/25/2011
Subject: Cooperative Viability. YOUR OPINION IS WANTED!

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4880 From: dave santos Date: 11/25/2011
Subject: Google and Coop AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4881 From: dave santos Date: 11/26/2011
Subject: Summary of Methods to Modulate Kite Area for Max Capacity Factor

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4882 From: roderickjosephread Date: 11/26/2011
Subject: Re: Cooperative Viability. YOUR OPINION IS WANTED!

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4883 From: dave santos Date: 11/26/2011
Subject: Re: Cooperative Viability. YOUR OPINION IS WANTED!

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4884 From: Theo Schmidt Date: 11/26/2011
Subject: Website forking [was: Re: [AWECS] Re: Refreshed notice for CoolIP, C

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4885 From: Doug Date: 11/26/2011
Subject: Re: Refreshed notice for CoolIP, CoOpIP

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4886 From: dave santos Date: 11/26/2011
Subject: Integrated Kite-Sailing Fleets (Cloud Sailing)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4887 From: Dan Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: Air Engine/Compressor

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4888 From: Doug Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: Re: Cooperative Viability. YOUR OPINION IS WANTED!

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4889 From: roderickjosephread Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: Re: Cooperative Viability. YOUR OPINION IS WANTED!

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4890 From: dave santos Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: Re: Cooperative Viability. YOUR OPINION IS WANTED!

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4891 From: dave santos Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: Radial Air Motors //Re: [AWECS] Air Engine/Compressor

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4892 From: Dan Date: 11/28/2011
Subject: Radial Air Motors //Re: [AWECS] Air Engine/Compressor

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4893 From: Doug Date: 11/28/2011
Subject: Re: Cooperative Viability. YOUR OPINION IS WANTED!

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4894 From: dave santos Date: 11/28/2011
Subject: AWE Knowledge Project (call for participation and early signup)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4895 From: roderickjosephread Date: 11/28/2011
Subject: Radial Air Motors //Re: [AWECS] Air Engine/Compressor

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4896 From: blturner3 Date: 11/28/2011
Subject: Magenn status

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4897 From: dave santos Date: 11/28/2011
Subject: Re: Radial Air Motors //Re: [AWECS] Air Engine/Compressor

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4898 From: Dan Parker Date: 11/28/2011
Subject: Re: Radial Air Motors //Re: [AWECS] Air Engine/Compressor

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4899 From: roderickjosephread Date: 11/28/2011
Subject: Re: Cooperative Viability. YOUR OPINION IS WANTED!

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4900 From: dave santos Date: 11/28/2011
Subject: Re: Radial Air Motors //Re: [AWECS] Air Engine/Compressor

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4901 From: Dave Lang Date: 11/28/2011
Subject: Re: Radial Air Motors //Re: [AWECS] Air Engine/Compressor



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4852 From: roderickjosephread Date: 11/21/2011
Subject: Re: Joe Faust's Data Goldmine
Good chat like that deserves a good picture in return...
https://sites.google.com/site/kitepowerresearch/project-updates/newmountsketch 
Wee Mangy from my sisters class is school is probably going to make this for me...
bits of motorbike and some spares from my days installing satellite tracking KU band dishes on oilrigs... sorry someone had to.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4853 From: roderickjosephread Date: 11/22/2011
Subject: Re: Joe Faust's Data Goldmine
About that drawing. I ought replace the hub mount mechanism with a rocking cradle counterweight the hub with the gen.

New drawing on the way, once I get home to my pc.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4854 From: roderickjosephread Date: 11/22/2011
Subject: Re: Joe Faust's Data Goldmine
Since I normally talk in terms of toys....
The better design to mount a spinner on ...
is kinda the seat end of a young kid's seesaw

(inspired by a crushed paper cup, the base of which resembles the hyperbolic paraboloid of a pringles crisp)

mounted on a roundabout

Right I'm off back to the toy shop and welders.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4855 From: roderickjosephread Date: 11/22/2011
Subject: Re: Refreshed notice for CoolIP, CoOpIP
Joe F,
You are a GENT, and a GEM of a one at that.

So ever onward...
Thoughts on hosting?
I've used siteground and some joomla specialists and just host...

My favourite is siteground.

Maybe though members would prefer some guarantee internetional
multijuristicional hosting security ... siteground may do that ... I'm
not sure.

Do you have favourites for meeting spaces? ...like go to my meeting
etc?
Do you have favourites for document cooperation? google docs etc?
Do you have favourites for calendar coordination?

Do you have any graphic content you feel could help the early stages of
Development?
Do you have opinions on the major structural hierarchy?
Do you have a good singe strap / tag line / name... (I thought about
FinCam after my two sons... very windy saily names but too obscure....
this has to be obvious...)
Do you have a good deadline / open gant chart development environment we
can operate inside?

Let's not turn this into a deviation from our main task however....
The whole reason to choose a CMS is speed of participant and topic
interaction.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4856 From: dave santos Date: 11/22/2011
Subject: Turning the Sky into a MSKA Energy Gel (Masao's Intro to Gel Dynami
As you read this admirable overview by the top scientist in (slow) Gel Dynamics note that 3-D Kite Lattices fulfill all the basic mechanical conditions of  laboratory gels, with a few new twists. Mega-Scale Kite Aerogels will set many new records for engineered gels, including greatest variation in volume.
 
The biggest area unexplored by Masao is the vibrational modes that will convey wind energy to the surface. Other researchers are exploring normal-mode vibration of gels, but no one citation has jumped out.
 
Looking for some solid-state/soft-matter physicist/kiter in our midst who can validate this rabbit-hole topic.
 
jpsj.ipap.jp/link?JPSJ/78/052001/Similar
by M Doi - 2009 - Cited by 22 - Related articlesGel Dynamics. Masao Doi. Department of Applied Physics, ...
M. Shibayama and T. Tanaka: in Advances in Polymer Science, ed. K ...
M. Doi: Introduction to Polymer Physics (Oxford University Press, Oxford, U ...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4857 From: dave santos Date: 11/22/2011
Subject: The Sky as a Liquid Crystal; MSKA as the Geoengineered Version
Matter in a Liquid Crystal (LC) state is fairly ordinary. Gelatin is a liquid crystal, as are biomembranes and plasms. The LC state is an intermediate Mesophase between liquid and solid characterized by some amount of ordered patterning of its monomers. Many of our kite fibers are classed as liquid crystals; Vectran is even commercially billed as such, but Kevlar and all the other ester-based materials (polyester) are LCs. Soap solutions are liquid crystals. Any bulk material in mixed liquid and crystal phases is an LC. MSKA (Mega Scale Kite Aerogel) is a liquid crystal, and existing condensed matter physics is foundational to understanding the new science of AWE-inspired megamaterials.
 
A curious property of mesophase LC materials is a common milky "Blue Phase" state owing to the characteristic length optical properties of monomers on the verge of polymerization into the macroscale. We see this blue in smoke, lab aerogels, and even the blue sky itself. Is the sky an LC? Considered statistically, we find a definite amount of ordered patterning of its monomers. There are ice crystals, condensed vapor spheres (cloud), and molecules that order themselves weakly in electromagnetic gradients, and sort themselves by density, temperature, fluidynamics, and so on. Therefore the sky is a definite liquid crystal, but you can tease an ordinary physicist with such pronouncements. MSKA should display an added blueness at a distance, although this will mostly be from its oligomer-scale fractal dimension.
 
Its essential, but not enough, to fly kites constantly and tinker in garages: Real revolutions require a revolutionary perspective. Now we get to ponder a kite-and-string based planetary-scale engineered megamaterial with weird properties like Flubber, Ice-Nine, and the Crystalline Entity. It can power civilization hundreds of times over, but also do much more we have not even imagined. We live in interesting times.
 
 
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_crystalCached - Similar
Liquid crystals (LCs) are a state of matter that have properties between those of a conventional liquid and those of a solid crystal.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4858 From: dave santos Date: 11/22/2011
Subject: Engineered Megamaterial: A New Paradigm?
 
Stupid Google-
 
 
Your search - "engineered megamaterial" - did not match any documents.
Suggestions:
  • Make sure all words are spelled correctly.
  • Try different keywords.
  • Try more general keywords.
---------
 
 
No results found for "engineered mega-material".
 
 
coolIP  (military-industrial use forbidden)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4859 From: Bob Stuart Date: 11/22/2011
Subject: Re: Engineered Megamaterial: A New Paradigm?
Well, "mega" usually refers to size, and "material" to an amorphous substance . . .  I'm surprised they didn't suggest "meta." 

"Steel" can be any shape you want, if you are skilled enough, and any other shape if you are not."
 - Robert Persig

Bob Stuart

On 22-Nov-11, at 5:30 PM, dave santos wrote:
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4860 From: dave santos Date: 11/22/2011
Subject: Re: Engineered Megamaterial: A New Paradigm?
Bob,
 
Quote marks constrain a search to be literal, since at least WebCrawler, i think. Google's promptings are quite often corrupt, and the underlying marketing algorithms do not help scholars. Advertisers pay Google to lead search results with an ever fainter pink box. This is a terrible fraud.
 
Mega prefix in the strict definition means a megameter (1000km), which scale the Great Wall is, and MSKA can do in principle. Megascale has many looser uses- referring to anything of giant proportions.
 
Nano, Meso, and Macro scales and materials have large concept clusters. Clearly we are on to something MegaCool with the MSKA engineered megamaterial paradigm. MSKA is also a newcomer to the short list of known doable megastructures*,
 
daveS
 
*Wikipedia- Of all the proposed megastructures, only the orbital elevator,[4] the Lofstrom launch loop, and Martian or lunar space elevator concepts could be built using conventional engineering techniques, and are within the grasp of current material science.

 
   
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4861 From: roderickjosephread Date: 11/23/2011
Subject: Re: Refreshed notice for CoolIP, CoOpIP
Hi Joe and all,

I think a good model for collaborative working could be to describe a cooperative membership structure and register a .coop domain e.g.

www.kitepower.coop

If you see http://europe.coop/free/application
A cooperative reference is needed.

Is this name or approach controversial?

Are you willing to be the reference to start such an initiative?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4862 From: dave santos Date: 11/23/2011
Subject: Re: Refreshed notice for CoolIP, CoOpIP
Roddy,
 
A cooperative framework for AWE R&D has always been a popular goal, so please do untertake any initiative along those lines. Note that AWEIA operates as an industry cooperative, but is still very young and modest in scope. AWEIA has a great EU branch for you to assist.
 
JoeF's webstuff is best allowed to be what it is without a lot intrusive plastic surgery. There is an aesthetic to geeky duct-tape prototypes and web clutter that a makeover would ruin. You might build a nice navigation overlay architecture or a front end shell, separately hosted, to Joe's golden datamine. Watch out getting too distracted by webwork dependent on so many whizzy third-party tools,;as the years go by its hard to sustain sites with old bell and whistle, and you will burn-out. Many an early AWE effort has a dead pretty website as a tombstone, while the practical folks continue trudging toward the RAD finish-line, with an ugly haphazard web presence.
 
Consider starting a complimentary web project that moves toward specific new AWE directions unencumbered by the past. A focus on some major emerging theme, like low complexity COOP AWE for the poor, or a central birthsite for the most futuristic AWE concepts.
 
daveS
 
 
  
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4863 From: dave santos Date: 11/23/2011
Subject: AWE at Virginia Polytechnic //Fw: Google Alert - airborne-wind-ener
Seems to be the project along lines Dave North (NASA, Langley) mentioned-

----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Google Alerts <googlealerts-noreply@google.com
Web1 new result for airborne-wind-energy
 
Airborne Wind Energy Demonstration Unit
energy. The concept behind airborne wind energy is generating power from wind using an aircraft, such as a kite or glider, at much higher altitudes than current ...
www.nianet.org/.../Airborne-Wind-Energy-Demonstration-Un...
Tip: Use site restrict in your query to search within a site (site:nytimes.com or site:.edu). Learn more.Delete this alert.
Create another alert.
Manage your alerts.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4864 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/23/2011
Subject: Re: AWE at Virginia Polytechnic //Fw: Google Alert - airborne-wind-
The following seems like a cousin to the announcement you just gave: 


=======================
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4865 From: roderickjosephread Date: 11/23/2011
Subject: Re: Refreshed notice for CoolIP, CoOpIP
hi Dave
AWEIA operates as an industry cooperative
what structure does AWEIA have? 

A reason for choosing an official co-operative framework is the inherent trust people have of it and in each other.


JoeF's webstuff is a wonder to behold, untouchable.

The suggestion of a new web entity run under a CMS certainly seems to have support.
CMS sites tend to evolve with their users.
Joomla certainly is flexible, I managed to handover 3 sites to people who had no previous training.

.coop domain names have the following eligibility requirements
  • an organization formed as and/or considered cooperatives under applicable local law;
  • an association comprised of cooperatives;
  • an organization that is committed to the seven cooperative principles;
  • an organization that is majority controlled by cooperatives; or
  • an entity whose operations are principally dedicated to serving cooperatives.
If AWEIA is formed along those principles and already has Industrial and provident society (IPS) framework in place. 
then I don't see any problems.

I think my principal design aim is accessible kite power system methodology.
I would also love to make bucketloads of money but it comes second saving the Earth.

--- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, dave santos <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4866 From: dave santos Date: 11/23/2011
Subject: Re: Refreshed notice for CoolIP, CoOpIP
Roddy,
 
Right now AWEIA is an global unincorporated voluntary association. Over time AWEIA national chapters will incorporate in their countries as needed. We have not tried yet to get a concensus as to any "central" formal incorporation jurisdiction, but the Isle of Lewis sounds like a cool venue ;) We do pledge to an OPEN cooperative model (compare with AWEC, a US 501(C)(6) org).
 
The totally-focused RAD strategy is to create those open-source  AWE "hit products" first and then, flush with cooperative revenue, pay lawyers, webmasters, etc. to do the fancy services AWEIA will need later. Many of us have been through many tech cycles, and know the hazard of early over-formalizing, when the direct mission must come first, or nothing results.
 
I agree with Robert Copcutt, lets do that killer app, a family of cheap simple small AWECS to serve humanity, and have faith that revenue will follow. The situation is a bit like chasing major prizes (the Queen's Prize was just one of many before it) and high web production-values, one gets lost fast,
 
daveS

 
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4867 From: dave santos Date: 11/23/2011
Subject: The 2012 AWE Conference (call for ideas)
A background discussion by about a dozen AWE players is underway as to where the 2012 AWE conference should be, and how it should be run. AWEC and AWEIA are involved, and many standing issues are in play. AWEIA insiders are leaning toward a Stanford repeat, rather than a rotation, but Seattle, New York City, and Washington DC have also been proposed from the wider AWE community, with DC the current "favorite" based on several East Coast AWE players offering to help organize the event, and detailing how a Wash DC location is strategic to activating US gov participation in AWE.
 
There is a big opportunity for ARPA-E conference support, but a 501(C)(3) organization must umbrella the grant. Drachen Foundation could serve this role only if the organizers do all the hands-on work, but any US University or AWE related non-profit would also do. Grant support is essential for a widely affordable conference (the Stanford Conference fee was 800USD, with no grant support, so many low-budget AWE scholars and inventors were excluded). A hot-button issue is the academic review of presenters, which at Leuven was a true blue-ribbon committee, but at AWEC2011, seemed to have been a biased insider process conducted by Joby Energy staff-members.
 
Nothing definite is decided yet. This message is to encourage all suggestions for the best possible AWE conference. All event ideas shared on the forum can be forwarded to AWEC's board as a package before its Jan. meeting. PJ suggested AWEIA do a separate conference, but there was no second for that idea. It seems only if AWEC declines to organize an AWE conference might AWEIA contemplate taking on the conference hosting role (by an open democratic process), so as not to divide our small field into competing conferences. After this next US conference, Italy seems to be the destination for 2013.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4868 From: Doug Date: 11/24/2011
Subject: Re: AWE at Virginia Polytechnic //Fw: Google Alert - airborne-wind-
Wow all that talent to produce a bunch of excuses.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4869 From: Doug Date: 11/24/2011
Subject: Re: Refreshed notice for CoolIP, CoOpIP
It's a good thing that there was no internet when Henry Ford and Thomas Edison were working their asses off, or they might have been distracted into thinking that blogging it to death and crafting increasingly complex web pages was the answer to innovation, and maybe they would have never even gotten into the shop to get anything done!
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4870 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/24/2011
Subject: AWEkey

Put in the search box a key word or phrase. If you put quotation marks around a phrase, then one might get served that exact phrase. If you do not get a result, send  editor a note and some leads. Thanks.  Here is a key for you:  

http://tinyurl.com/AWEkey

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4871 From: dave santos Date: 11/24/2011
Subject: Basic Elements of 3D Kite Lattices
The basic elements required to assemble an endless variety of kite-based flying energy latticeworks are as follows-
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4872 From: dave santos Date: 11/24/2011
Subject: Re: AWE at Virginia Polytechnic //Fw: Google Alert - airborne-wind-
Good Grief, Doug, give folks a chance to show what they got, especially kids (this is a NASA/University (freshman) joint project).
 
I predict great things from this team, as they have sidestepped the common beginner's pitfalls, and only describe sensible ideas (Dave North's influence). This could be the launch of the "Langley (NASA) Advanced (AWE) Concept" announced a couple of years ago by Mark Moore. We must welcome all newbies and be patient as they ramp up in skill and knowledge.
 
 

Lana P. Hicks-Olson - OEOP - NASA

oeop.larc.nasa.gov/fwp/won/WONbios/larc-LHicks-Olson.htmlCached
- Block all oeop.larc.nasa.gov results
Apr 28, 1997 – Lana P. Hicks-Olson. [Lana P. Hicks-Olson's photo (8/01)]. I am a Mechanical Engineering Technician at NASA Langley Research Center ...

Local student wins Pamplin Leader Award | Inside York County

insideyorkcounty.com/.../254797-local-student-wins-pamplin-leader-...Cached
- Block all insideyorkcounty.com results
Jul 22, 2011 – Matthew S. Tilashalski, a student at Tabb High School in Yorktown, is the recipient of the 2011 Pamplin Leader Award. ...
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4873 From: roderickjosephread Date: 11/24/2011
Subject: Re: Basic Elements of 3D Kite Lattices
Now this list really could benefit from diagrams,
I'll get to it soon.

You could add in service kites, replacement lines, cutting devices, chute vents, individual and grouped cell descriptions. Combined L&D stacked ring formations. cell form types. tethers, spreaders like the dog pulling array. Generator types....

This list is exactly why we need a collaborative almost wiki style approach to online knowledge collation.

I bought a domain today. I'll get working on forms for polls of how it should be used, projects sharing areas, library area, ...

Large gale tonight. The police have blocked the road. A wave washed over the car with me and the kids in it today... coool
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4874 From: roderickjosephread Date: 11/24/2011
Subject: Re: Refreshed notice for CoolIP, CoOpIP
What's weird is that nobody noticed Einstein worked in a patents office. Where he saw loads of great new ideas.
Where did Alexander Graham Bell get the idea for telephones?
I dare not say... There is a strong Italian contingent on this forum.

Had Tesla been obsessed with patents he would have owned all the money in the world as we know it.

I'm guessing Ford and Edison were no strangers to the library.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4875 From: roderickjosephread Date: 11/25/2011
Subject: Re: Refreshed notice for CoolIP, CoOpIP
John Logie Baird was at it too..
Anyway,
if you want to go ahead and make loads of these...
you can if you are going to do it in a cooperative manor.




--- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, "roderickjosephread" <rod.read@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4876 From: dave santos Date: 11/25/2011
Subject: Terrawatt Scale Geoflow Energy Megaprojects: A Draft "Kite Manifesto
1st Draft offered for critical comment-
 
Terrawatt Scale Geoflow Energy Megaprojects: 
 
The "Kite Manifesto"
 
Our industrialized world consumes on average nearly 20 terrawatts of electrical power. Over half of of this is wasted in inefficiency and the general environmental consequences of modern energy production are tragic. We are destroying the atmospheric balance of the global ecosystem and laying waste to vast natural areas. Its unlikely that humans will suddenly all figure out how to live sustainably, or even try to radically transform their lifestyles. We see the seeds of draconian totalitarian regimes, "Green Hitlers", prepared to enslave us on the pretext of ecological urgency. Meanwhile, about half of the world population does not enjoy the minimal level of energy to live the modern "good life", with even dietary calories restricted, much less access to basic health, good education, and other rightful conditions. Even though its possible for individuals and communities to achieve energy independence and ecological balance, our humanity requires us to try to save the helpless, and even the biosphere itself.
 
We now know that geoflows of global wind and currents are have the potential to sustainably power civilization. Just one percent or so of the total resource would be needed, and it appears that major ecosystems can tolerate this level of interference. Roughly half of geoflow energy is from rotational energy of the planet, and the other half is solar-driven. Global Warming is adding a bit to the solar side, and the increased convection provides traction for more rotational energy to couple into global flows; so we are in for a wild stormy wide. We now know how to put a wing on a string and tap geoflow on small scales, but its a rare art, and not everyone can make their own kite power. Most of the world's population live in crowded cities, shielded valleys, and low wind locations. Ocean currents are out-of-reach of almost everyone. Just as we might mobilize the planet's astronautic capacity to push aside a large menacing asteroid, we likely need to mobilize the general maritime and aerospace industry to create a global-scale solution to renewable energy based on geoflow.
 
By small logical steps, we have explored the scaling potential of kite energy, in sky or sea. We have found scaling barriers to individual kites, but see by elementary math that integrated kite arrays can aggregate power to gigawatt-scales. No scaling barrier prevents us from extrapolating these numbers to the size of the world crisis. Terrawatt-scale kite energy is possible, but it would be humanity's first true Megaproject. A terrawatt-scale kite energy infrastructure would consist of about one million large kites and cost about a trillion dollars to build. The mobile kite lattices would span hundreds of kilometers, and could directly drive existing grids and powerplants, as kite-hybrids. The ecological impacts could be profound, but geoengineered mitigation of the worst effects of global warming might be possible; the moderating of storms and floods, and relieving of drought. A tremendous societal benefit would be to "turn new jobs onto energy". Tens of millions of challenging jobs would be a necessary side effect of a geoflow energy mega-project. The simple lines and wings needed can be made in highly-automated factories, but it would take many brave humans in heroic roles to make renewable energy megaprojects successful. Small experiments with "toy" kites are preparing us for perhaps the grandest adventure in history. Lets rock!
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4877 From: dave santos Date: 11/25/2011
Subject: Re: Refreshed notice for CoolIP, CoOpIP
Roddy,
 
Bravo, you have made a great start web-building a cooperative social media porject. We do have the best kite energy dot-com dot-net domains available in our circle (JoeF, JohnO, and Wayne). The google-sites domain is a (non-JoeF) Faustian Bargain, not descriptive, nor the public ideal.
 
There is also a short list of top public content to feature, from classic, like Pocock, to modern technical, like Felker. AWEIA is also important to integrate with, as it is the existing public kite energy community.
 
Keep a clean architectural vision, or the details will smother (not easy),
 
daveS

From: roderickjosephread <rod.read@gmail.com
 
John Logie Baird was at it too..
Anyway,
if you want to go ahead and make loads of these...
you can if you are going to do it in a cooperative manor.




--- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, "roderickjosephread" <rod.read@... it.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4878 From: roderickjosephread Date: 11/25/2011
Subject: Re: Refreshed notice for CoolIP, CoOpIP
Thanks Dave,
I started https://sites.google.com/site/kitepowerresearch/  a few months ago...  and it could be used for the cooperative ,..,
Going with Google is funny! anyone can join that site ... but functionally, google's not really all there.
It may come good yet but I'm focussing on other things. (not a graveyard site, more fallowing field)

... setting up another, yes yet another.

To that end, I bought a domain and last night I was designing in Joomla and using projectfork for project management.

One of my neighbours runs a good web design company...I think I'll outsource this to her as I'm flat out.
No mad rush for the site. As long collective knowledge keeps posting online, and it can still be accessed freely, Anyone keen enough will find it. 

A glossy clean collaborative instructional site,  needs to be done right from the ground up and from the community out too.

I'll go about badgering the Uni here and a few council folks to see if we can host a conference here if you like?
Not that I can even spell conference ... but hey, short of any other takers!!!

Who's first up on the podium?


--- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, dave santos <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4879 From: roderickjosephread Date: 11/25/2011
Subject: Cooperative Viability. YOUR OPINION IS WANTED!
A quick 5 questions....

Please fill in your opinions on a kite power cooperative. Thank You.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4880 From: dave santos Date: 11/25/2011
Subject: Google and Coop AWE
Its well known by true geeks that Google never had a genius algorithm for search, that's just the PR myth. The actual innovation was in marketing, in attaching advertising revenue to search, that's it. The founders are nice bright guys, but geeks aren't fooled by t-shirts and Priuses, but noted with sadness how soon they bought personal wide-body jets and cultivated a Google cult-of-personality. Hopes were raised in AWE when Makani was formed with Google capital, but they picked friends to do the R&D job as a "stealth venture", rather than a rigous open process of gathering the world's best aerospace experts. We were told that Makani was to act as our "cheerleader", that the Google cachet would lift all AWE boats. Instead we find the global R&D world in a general state of capital starvation, while Makani secures an exclusive ARPA-E subsidy on its tacit Google edge. JoeF and others who have followed the field can confirm a clear trend whereby Makani hype increasingly dominates popular press coverage of AWE. Makani has emplyed a full time publicist and exploited every possible PR connection (for example, a Makani founder placed as a Popular Mechanics Editorial Adviser lead to the "Breakthrough Award").
 
Folks have wised-up to this culture of abuse, and Google now faces at least nine major international and US gov investigations into unfair business practices*. We have seen this dynamic at work in our field. Google has always been asked to support cooperative AWE R&D, via Makani and "take-a-number" channels; but there is no sign the idea has ever been considered or acted on. Maybe they would like to help us, but its like the classic Kafka piece- 
 

An Imperial Message

by Franz Kafka
Translation by Ian Johnston

 The Emperor—so they say—has sent a message, directly from his death bed, to you alone, his pathetic subject, a tiny shadow which has taken refuge at the furthest distance from the imperial sun. He ordered the herald to kneel down beside his bed and whispered the message in his ear. He thought it was so important that he had the herald speak it back to him. He confirmed the accuracy of verbal message by nodding his head. And in front of the entire crowd of those witnessing his death—all the obstructing walls have been broken down, and all the great ones of his empire are standing in a circle on the broad and high soaring flights of stairs—in front of all of them he dispatched his herald. The messenger started off at once, a powerful, tireless man. Sticking one arm out and then another, he makes his way through the crowd. If he runs into resistance, he points to his breast where there is a sign of the sun. So he moves forwards easily, unlike anyone else. But the crowd is so huge; its dwelling places are infinite. If there were an open field, how he would fly along, and soon you would hear the marvellous pounding of his fist on your door. But instead of that, how futile are all his efforts. He is still forcing his way through the private rooms of the innermost palace. Never will he win his way through. And if he did manage that, nothing would have been achieved. He would have to fight his way down the steps, and, if he managed to do that, nothing would have been achieved. He would have to stride through the courtyards, and after the courtyards through the second palace encircling the first, and, then again, through stairs and courtyards, and then, once again, a palace, and so on for thousands of years. And if he finally burst through the outermost door—but that can never, never happen—the royal capital city, the centre of the world, is still there in front of him, piled high and full of sediment. No one pushes his way through here, certainly not someone with a message from a dead man. But you sit at your window and dream of that message when evening comes.
 
==========================
 
* Government Investigations into Google’s Monopoly Abuses
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4881 From: dave santos Date: 11/26/2011
Subject: Summary of Methods to Modulate Kite Area for Max Capacity Factor
AWECSs can be designed to handle a wide range of wind conditions by traditional methods well known to sailing and aviation. Its rare to see a new method, but flexible combination's of standard methods are common. The basic principle is to keep wings within the maximum (Load Case) limits in high-wind (airspeed), but to spread the most wing possible in low-wind. Sweeping a wing effectively creates virtual area. Claibrated Kill-Lines and Elastic Aft Bridling can prevent chaotic surge damage. In terms of our abstract gel physics model for large kite lattices, Densification is the state of the array when landed at the surface and Rarefaction (saturation) is the low density extended state aloft. Densification and rarefaction can be used locally at any fractal dimension.
 
Classical sailing is  done by constant small changes in a sail's Angle-of Attack (AoA). Sailing often depends on gross changes in the sails set; increasing or reducing the number and type of sails according to conditions. With kite systems the varied set of wings to match conditions is a "Quiver". Dousing, Furling, Reefing (Slab, Jiffy, Roller) comprise the major state transitions of individual sails. Sails commonly emerge from Chutes, and a kite field might have underground silos in this role. Sail pack bags called Turtles, or long Sleeves, are means to handle lots of sail with less fuss. Packing soft-kites like parachutes is a practical method, with Kite-Killers to douse. A parafoil or single-skin wing can progressively reduce span by accordion pleating performed much as a braille theater curtain uses drawlines and grommets.
 
Lazy Jacks are a double "wall" of windwise preventer lines that keep a sail within bounds as it is raised or doused. There is great potential for staged Kite-Arrays to raise or douse along lazy-jack lines into narrow surface corridors, avoiding the clutter of surface obstructions and the need for extensive land area. Chafing Gear includes special pulley covers and line sleeves that reduce the wear of rubbing lazy-jacks on sails. Lazy Jacks are an instance of a "pulley whipple-tree". 
 
 Autogyro rotors have an exceptionally wide flight envelope within a minimal state space. They do not completely cover extreme low-wind and high-wind ranges, but everything in between is nicely handled by modulating RPM and collective pitch. Soft rotor-blade roller-furling might extend rotor wind range unbeatably.
 
KitePlane Hard-Wings are most at home at higher airspeed and face special challenges in order to land slowly, especially at larger scales. Hard-wings have many methods to handle broad conditions. They can stop sweeping in high wind and "Park". Looping sweep is all-or-nothing between the parked state ("pasted-to-the-sky"). Figure-of-eight sweeping allows an intermediate range of Dutch roll sweep between parked no-sweep and high-sweep. A very basic hard-wing control input is modulation of AoA by feathering the wing with an Elevator wing or Trim-Tab surfaces, which corresponds with powering/depowering a common traction kite with its "Brake Lines". Folding Wings are an uncommon option, as flight balance, actuation forces, wing mount design all tend to be more radical challenges than just adding Leading-Edge Slats and Trailing Edge Flaps. 
 
It can be confidently predicted that a successful utility-scale AWECS will require adequate wing-area modulation means to maximize capacity factor across the broadest wind and load conditions.
 
coolIP
 
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4882 From: roderickjosephread Date: 11/26/2011
Subject: Re: Cooperative Viability. YOUR OPINION IS WANTED!
More questions than responders...
A mixed bag of results. 

loads to ponder


 --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, "roderickjosephread" <rod.read@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4883 From: dave santos Date: 11/26/2011
Subject: Re: Cooperative Viability. YOUR OPINION IS WANTED!
Rod,
 
Regarding your "mixed bag of results...loads to ponder"-
 
Whats happening now on the AWE scene is very complex. Cooperative R&D was early-on established (2007) by a small, but very expert circle. The Forum and JoeF's site were created as knowledge space for the cooperative AWE movement. Coop IP (coopIP) was the easliest version of what became fairIP, and is now just coolIP.
 
Many things changed in four years. The world became aware of AWE and mostly associate it with Magenn and Makani claims. Great teams sprang up all over the world, particularly in academia. Many top names cycle thru the Forum, but most tend to go silent after making their introductory contribution  and then lurk or move on. Many capital ventures forced developers to sign non-disclosure agreements, silencing them. Some were turned off by the high fraction of empty chat postings, flame-wars, and so on. Many still could pop back up anytime on the list. Many mysterious characters lurk on the list, including some "industrial espionage" types we have tracked. Many fine eager participants were slowly starved out of AWE as widespread garage-start seed capital failed to materialize. Players like Google became divisive factors.
 
Despite ups and downs, the Forum and AWEIA remain the dominant cooperative forces in our field. JoeF's site is unbeatable at having gathered the largest possible pool of AWE knowledge. The survivors are the leanest and toughest bastards, impossible to stop, but also to control. The Forum only seems a bit of like an "empty disco" at the moment, but that's just a temporary lull in a general growth pattern. Many amazing things are happening behind the scenes (private email traffic) to create the next boom in open knowedge. Over time you will join in many such cooperative side channels that seem to erupt publicly out of nowhere.
 
If you find it hard to attract a large following to a wholly new cooperative initiative, these factors are at fault. Midway along this marathon, folks are too focused to spend much time with ideal social aspects like a model cooperative or cultivating an informed mass-media. Most newbies are like lambs lost in a storm; the field has advanced so. Your best bet is to go with the AWE cooperative movement as you find it; and get real serious about building true working AWECS on a small scale, then grow as you master the knack. AWEIA badly needs web skills like yours, and you can consider yourself the Scotland rep. Joe's content is available to you to link a navigation shell onto. You have the best wind of almost anyone, you sail and do kite sports, so things are really in your favor.
 
daveS

 
  
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4884 From: Theo Schmidt Date: 11/26/2011
Subject: Website forking [was: Re: [AWECS] Re: Refreshed notice for CoolIP, C
roderickjosephread schrieb:
Once people start to discuss website presentation rather than content,
that's the beginning of the end in my experience. Static websites die
when nobody updates them anymore, but usually they are available as
archives for a long time. However CMS websites really die when nobody
works on them anymore, as eventually the providers switch them off if
nobody updates the framework behind the CMS. Or the dynamic data is lost
if something screws up the database. I would urge budding webmasters to
work with the present system, improve it, but not design a new system.

Cheers, Theo Schmidt
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4885 From: Doug Date: 11/26/2011
Subject: Re: Refreshed notice for CoolIP, CoOpIP
Wow what a relief: I thought for a while that we had a new player who would actually build things and DO things, not just another NASA or NREL or ARPA-E that you KNOW will do nothing. Now I see Roddy has diverted to the all-blog format. He'll be crafting websites rather than turbines. Good, still no competition... The field is still wide open for people like me to build so many different types of AWE as soon as I, or anyone who can actually USE their hands, ummm... get around to it...
Still no serious players in the field - whew!
he he he!
:)
So many easy ways to do AWE - an UNBELIEVEABLE array of possibilities, and nobody even mentioning them, let alone trying ANY of them! Sheesh! All those millions just sitting there! All those bureaucrats locked in chairs, restrained by their computers, with hands under their butts, unable to move!
"help I can't move!" "Help I can't think!" "help I can't even hang a wind turbine under a kite!" "help I can't order parts!" "Where are some worthless interns? interns? do we have interns? Can we have a breakout session please? When are the milk and cookies?", "help, I'm completely paralyzed, whirling helplessly through the bureaucratic blogosphere!" "Noooooo Mr. Bill!" "Hey where's my paycheck? - Oh good I still have that - no further action required!"

:)
Doug Selsam
PS on Thanksgiving Day I was skiing, feeling very guilty that I was not home building a flying wind turbine. In fact, every moment that I am not building a flying wind turbine I feel guilty that I am letting the world down. Sorry about letting everyone down. Step 1: get out of the blog-o-sphere - step AWAY from the computer! I will try to get to it soon. Meanwhile, sleep is important - get some more sleep folks, especially if you work for a big company or a large organization. Forget "work". I mean of you produce nothing useful, can we really even call it work? Versus meaningless activity? After all, what good is one more meaningless press release going to do? Another rendering? please. Just go back to sleep and stop bothering everyone!
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...........

---
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4886 From: dave santos Date: 11/26/2011
Subject: Integrated Kite-Sailing Fleets (Cloud Sailing)
Kite sailing is ancient and the modern instances have mostly been classic in concept. The idea of two boats, as buddies, working a net or kite between them is old. Similarly, boat towing, singly or in trains, is ancient and still very common. What next? Emerging Kite Energy concepts involve the use of many cross-linked kites, to overcome the operational scaling barrier to individual kites. Kite trains, arches, and even cloud-like 3D kite lattices can be scaled far beyond any energy technology ever to take to sea. Its advantageous to spread out kite arch and cloud multilines across the surface for control, and to spread crosswind sail area. An entire fleet can be pulled as a flock by such a cloud of sail in the sky. In lulls, the fleet could tow the eased (depowered) cloud along. Special deadheading tugs might ferry clouds into place along trade routes. Tug force could be tensiometrically metered as a commodity that would directly offset bunker diesel. Bulk barge traffic is an early opportunity, as the slower the boat, the lower the usable windrange. With time and steady performance improvements, a new golden age of high-speed sailing might ensue. Entire floating cites could sail under a cloud.
 
Amateur yachts-folk are the ideal developers and early adopters of Cloud Sailing. We understand how to kite sail, and how to find endless practical solutions from out of our grand sea traditions. We have all the needed sub-elements available as mature components. Supervised helm automation, radio-talk, and GPS make this a practical sailing class. Far out to sea, fleet spacing could easily be a comfortable kilometer or more, with the kite cloud towering even higher. A cloud "tall rig" could have a nice station aloft; the best vantage, with no sea-motion. Sailors aloft would do pretty much what they have always loved to do, sail, but through the sky. "Drop us a line" would take on a literal meaning as boats joined such a fleet. A winged pod would reel down from above, to connect to. A cascade of pulleys in a whipple-tree of line can passively equalize a fleet's multi-tethers. The sea-motion of all boats would improve. Existing boats would serve; all that would normally be needed would be a "Y" or tri- line bridle attached to hull tie-off points. Long-tether towing could draw along any boat unsuited to a direct cloud connection. Anyone able to round up a suitable hulk or tub could load up the family and sail off in the security of the kite fleet.
 
"KiteLab Ilwaco" tried a session of shared-kite sailing between my kayak and a rubber raft, with two friends on the Lower Columbia River, in 2009. We flew one forty square foot sled kite on about 200ft of line each, in a stiff breeze, making about 2 knots about 45 degrees off downwind, using our paddles as leeboards and rudders. It worked just as envisioned and was good fun. Flying real clouds someday is going to be a total gas.
 
 
 
coolIP
 
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4887 From: Dan Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: Air Engine/Compressor
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4888 From: Doug Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: Re: Cooperative Viability. YOUR OPINION IS WANTED!
The reason why there are not more meaningful posts here by people actually building and trying things is, if you get anything that works, you might want to file some IP for it before disclosing. That patent pending can sometimes be the announcement that something worked. Also if you THINK you have an idea for something that might work, you want to be the first to build it so you don't tell everyone else, in case someone else builds it first.

Anyone making a business out of this realizes that there will be no profit or benefit in arguing with the regulars on list. The idea of getting good input that would outweigh spilling one's ideas ahead of the fact is something to consider, but probably doubtful. Anything agreed on here is usually agreed to only by people with no experience in wind energy, who muse idly about non-issues, without understanding the basics.

Many of the posts here are generalized brain dumps ("note to self") that would be difficult for anyone else to even read through thoroughly. Perhaps half the posts are such hourly brain dumps from the same person. If anyone seriously outlines a design that would work, they can expect an immediate response of a blanket statement that it could NOT work. Then it's back to discussions of stuff that would not work, mostly long-disproven, as though it would.

How people can go on and on thinking the problem with AWE is a lack of organization online is, to my mind, ludicrous. If something works, all the talk in the world won't stop it and if something doesn't work, no amount of talk will save it. The talk is all irrelevant and mostly for our entertainment and so we have a home.
Thanks Joe for giving us a home.

Worse though, there's the "boy who cried wolf" syndrome, wherein any one person who has made enough erroneous statements is eventually ignored, and if the whole field is seen as making enough untrue statements (announcing success ahead of the fact) at some point, it will not just be a few jaded veterans who laugh at the Honeywells, the ARPE-E's and the NASA's, but everyone else too. At this rate, airborne wind energy will soon be considered equivalent to perpetual motion or global warming! :)
:)
Doug S.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4889 From: roderickjosephread Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: Re: Cooperative Viability. YOUR OPINION IS WANTED!
Stop yer gibbering, hod on there,
Woops Check out the latest pic in my photos folder.
I've probably knicked Dougs IP just by drawing a pic.

Ordered more bits last night.
The Next extension dimension is off to the sides (draw it tonight b4U).
Told a few more folks about the WOOOOOOLF, They're bricking themselves.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4890 From: dave santos Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: Re: Cooperative Viability. YOUR OPINION IS WANTED!
Doug,
 
Don't be so discouraged, look on the bright side.
 
You wanted metered AWE tests and power curves and you got them from around a dozen different teams. (Its fortunate that AWECS can generate a pretty complete curve in a single session by raising the kite thru the wind gradient, from slow surface wind into strong upper wind).
 
You wanted real flying experiments, and now there are hundreds of documented tests of all sorts of concepts. Whoever said any particular idea can't work has generally been proven wrong. I have personally NEVER seen an AWE concept that won't produce at least a trickle. All the ideas appear to work, even the silly ones, the question is which is best.
 
You wanted experienced wind energy folks to participate, and you got forum members with megawatt-scale HAWT experience going back decades (like ChrisC).
 
You wanted a fix for the broken patent IP system and we came up with coolIP, the coolest IP ever.
 
You wanted less AWE blogging, and you got it; hardly anyone blogs anymore. NASA stopped blogging on its site, Allister stopped on his, Joby and WindLift stopped; almost everyone who ever blogged about AWE has stopped; but the world is busier than ever building and testing AWE, just as you demanded.

We know its been hard for you to see so much progress by others, while you blog about skiing, but you did make some big mistakes. Bill Gates might have underwritten all AWE R&D, with you as the technical directer, if you hadn't groped his wife at Lake Tahoe. T. Boone Pickens would have helped launch AWE if you had not passed yourself off to him as the greatest living wind energy inventor (with no need for the rest of the world to invent anything). Makani struggles under its Popular Mechanics stigma since you hogged the higher-status Popular Science coverage; no wonder Google is confused. You burned NREL in the backyard turbine blogosphere and  now you make thinly veiled jabs at Harry Valentine's posts? Pick on me instead, i deserve it!
 
All in all, things are not as bad as you think in AWE, but wildly wonderful. That's what my posts try in vain to help you see.
 
Hang in there buddy, 
 
 
daveS
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4891 From: dave santos Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: Radial Air Motors //Re: [AWECS] Air Engine/Compressor
Dan'l,
 
That's a very pretty little radial air motor. It reminded me of Nevil Shute's classic novel of model engines and adventure, Trustee from the Toolroom.
 
The general radial engine cranking mechanism mounted over a giant generator can replace a massive low rpm AWE Carousel over-crowded with kites. Each "piston" would be a well spaced pumping laddermill working in phase to drive the crankshaft. In our case the "piston rods" are not push-rods, but cables that tug in metronomic sequence. Interestingly, an AWECS can be considered a true "air motor".
 
This video shows the basic idea very clearly as a three phase radial air motor, with the large flywheel suggestive of a ring gear able to drive generators at high rpm-
 
 
This is KiteLab Ilwaco's old working prototype; a radial motor (in generator mode), but driven by a looping kite rather than phased pumping laddermills-
 
 
Truly great modern novels are rare-
 
daveS
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4892 From: Dan Date: 11/28/2011
Subject: Radial Air Motors //Re: [AWECS] Air Engine/Compressor
Hi David and Collective Mind,

The flywheel is extra weight that should be jettisoned, what I liked about the air compressor was that it is scalable and lightweight. Compression is key, meaning, is it possible to get to 200 psi? Storage could be an earth cavity or water bladders as they would, could be cost effective. Again the problem with juice is all the manipilation and loss along the way. With an air tight system only one feed line down (k.i.s.s.)and less worry of lightning strikes.

Thanks Dan'l
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4893 From: Doug Date: 11/28/2011
Subject: Re: Cooperative Viability. YOUR OPINION IS WANTED!
Hey Dave S.:
***Is this your endorsement of the torque tube? :))) - Doug S. ***
--- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, dave santos <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4894 From: dave santos Date: 11/28/2011
Subject: AWE Knowledge Project (call for participation and early signup)
Airborne Wind Energy, as a professional field, urgently needs foundational science-engineering research across the entire concept space, much as NACA and similar bodies once set aeronautics on a sound basis. The missing program will not materialize by itself; but must be assembled from the human and capital resources at hand. This is a draft AWEIA US Chapter initiative, but would spin-off from AWEIA, as its own entity. Airborne Wind Energy Knowledge Project (AKP) is proposed as a working name. 
 
Scattered starts have been made, JoeF's tireless work, NASA's bibliography and preliminary study, the conference proceedings, Gerard Hassan, the AWEIA EU AWE Dossier, and so on, but so much more is needed. JoeF is already the AWE knowledge hub, an ideal choice to support in continued efforts toward a good conclusion. JoeF will need professional follow-on collaboration to sort thru his trove of information and organize it into a true knowledge-base. Roddy has stepped up and started work. RobertC has an AWE R&D plan in draft.
 
Several academic and private labs already do broad experimental AWE studies, and they comprise the base to build upon. Many others are expert at their particular AWECS concept. All these teams can share a common pool of support to integrate their work as a comprehensive testing program. Internal competition can drive cost-effective progress. An additional layer of third party validation studies by Academia and independent experts will draw the sound conclusions that investment can build on.
 
Comparative testing is essential to generate the data. Standard load metering and other engineering tests should be designed and supervised by a professional aerospace Test Engineers. Our ad hoc global AWE test site network covers the spectrum of operational conditions. Both cultural and natural factors count. Adverse conditions will speed learning; like four season experience, storms, low wind, and turbulence as the best sort of test conditions. Building the first one hundred thousand data-instrumented flight hours should be a consensual goal. 1/4 scale prototypes are proposed for serious comparative prototype testing, but even smaller 1/16 scale testing reveals many lessons far faster and cheaper than larger work. Scale winners are likely small-scale products. Effective utility-scale prototypes could be the final deliverable of the AKP, after perhaps a decade of intense progress.
 
We should not expect nor seek a single governmental agency, existing NGO, or private venture to shoulder the AKP job, but try to interconnect participation of all available granting and AWE domain agencies within an independent R&D cooperative (open consortium). Support from EU Union and US Gov sources are a start, but equal participation by non-profit institutions and private investment is desirable, without distortion of the testing by any party. The Cooperative Roddy envisions might be a key player. Existing commercial interests with a large stake include WOW, AWEC, Google, SkySail's German Conglomerate, and many more. They should be polled for input and given project responsibilities. Sharing of internal data on some agreed basis would be wonderful, with incentives.
 
The deliverables from a sucessful AKP will be a huge knowledge harvest, including ever better conferences, standard data sets, tech reports, handbooks, instructional media, and reference designs.
 
This is first notice of AWEIA US intent to initiate the AKP and a call to all interested parties to sign-up. Please help in the design of the AKP. Contact the Forum, AWEIA, or any of the key person to get going.
 
----------------------------------------------------
 
Note to Matt and Mark (ARPA-E Points of contact)- This is a heads-up as to what AWEIA's official recomendation to ARPA-E will look like, as part of the "constructive dialog" proposed.
 
Note to JohnO, AWEIA President Pro-Tem- This is the US AWEIA initiative outline as proposed internally to AWEIA. Please add any international input as it occurs.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4895 From: roderickjosephread Date: 11/28/2011
Subject: Radial Air Motors //Re: [AWECS] Air Engine/Compressor
I think I can make a pressure differential over two ends of the same pipe by linking them to the two ends of a set of spinning contra arrayed cones of alpine horn cloth shapes....

That was a terrible sentence to try and imagine as a shape....sorry
A thousand words won't help and it won't be easy to build...
(possible though with laytex moulding. )
but it's one of the ideas collected in my mind.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4896 From: blturner3 Date: 11/28/2011
Subject: Magenn status
A friend of mine said he recently attended an auction of Magenn stuff in San Francisco area. I checked their web page and although It has not been updated in a few months it's still up. The contact number in California rings disconnected and the one in Ontario hits a generic answering machine message.

Does anyone know what's up? If anything?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4897 From: dave santos Date: 11/28/2011
Subject: Re: Radial Air Motors //Re: [AWECS] Air Engine/Compressor
Dan'l
 
Air Compression aloft is only highly favored if you can use the heat of compression, otherwise its very wasteful (<50 percent efficient). By itself, lightning does not drive AWE design, but is just one of many factors. A well insulated conductive cable does not particularly attract a strike, nor is a plastic tube or cable immune. A radial air compressor would likely not be the best power-to-weight or low-cost design, but it is a basic inspirational load-path geometry for giant kite farms (lateral thinking),
 
Rod,
 
If you are talking about a ram-air compression cone method, its bound to be weak as a power basis, as the air easily stalls in the cone at a low pressure value.
 
daveS

 
  
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4898 From: Dan Parker Date: 11/28/2011
Subject: Re: Radial Air Motors //Re: [AWECS] Air Engine/Compressor
Collective mind,
 
      If heat is givin off as a biproduct, then perhaps the heat could be used, LTA style. This bird would naturally wanna stay up all night, a bird full of hot air, shucks it could be called the "night howl". Fifty percent of something is far better then 100 percent of nothing. To define this better in your opinion what would be the best compressor set up to optimize. The thing is, electrical is problematic at best, so is air but air is worth scutiny as well as an electrical solution.
 
                                                                                                                                                       Dan'l
 
Rodderick,
 
      I do wish you had a picture of what your words are try'n to convey, I am a good picture minded person and not so good on the words.
 
To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: santos137@yahoo.com
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 13:42:38 -0800
Subject: Re: Radial Air Motors //Re: [AWECS] Air Engine/Compressor

 
Dan'l
 
Air Compression aloft is only highly favored if you can use the heat of compression, otherwise its very wasteful (<50 percent efficient). By itself, lightning does not drive AWE design, but is just one of many factors. A well insulated conductive cable does not particularly attract a strike, nor is a plastic tube or cable immune. A radial air compressor would likely not be the best power-to-weight or low-cost design, but it is a basic inspirational load-path geometry for giant kite farms (lateral thinking),
 
Rod,
 
If you are talking about a ram-air compression cone method, its bound to be weak as a power basis, as the air easily stalls in the cone at a low pressure value.
 
daveS

 
  


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4899 From: roderickjosephread Date: 11/28/2011
Subject: Re: Cooperative Viability. YOUR OPINION IS WANTED!

Why re-invent the wheel? 

Dave why did you have to bring that up? The poor lassie doesn't need that aired in public more than it allegedly was. 
Bad as an english red top paper, Press standards hearings are big news.

Doug was probably studying the fluid elastic response of lift generating, tie joined, dual chute formed, vertical tethering systems.
These forms are widely known even in the third world. 
Possibly invented by  Otto Titzling should you need to study further doug.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4900 From: dave santos Date: 11/28/2011
Subject: Re: Radial Air Motors //Re: [AWECS] Air Engine/Compressor
Dan'l
 
A scavenged heat LYA is a nice idea, but any hot air AEWCS aerostat would be huge and probably need an aerogel quilt for insulation to build and hold heat. Large balloons of every kind do not do storms. The basic kite pulling on a load at the ground is so hard to beat, i feel sorry for those who choose to compete with it.
 
There are lots of great radial engine images on the net. Just imagine the basic radial engine cranking layout as a ground plan for a central transmission hub in a vast kite field. Each "piston" would be a pumping laddermill spaced out across the field, tugging at the crank in phase. The KiteLab video showed the radial idea working at the toy scale. There are many sketches pending scanning (800 new pages), but the quick public text description at least sets an early IP disclosure date.
 

daveS
  
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4901 From: Dave Lang Date: 11/28/2011
Subject: Re: Radial Air Motors //Re: [AWECS] Air Engine/Compressor
BTW, using a hose to pump pressurized air to the ground reminds us of considerations that have been lurking about the AWE list now for a few years it seems, namely, what is the most efficient media to move energy harvesting done aloft back to the ground, in terms of:

 - Weight (we have to lift the tether),

 - Cross-sectional area (we got our beloved high-speed wind  blowing the tether downward and leeward),

 - Bulk (we have to store, handle, and deploy the tether)

 - Wear and Fatigue (we must pay attention to ROI and COP)

 - Safety (count on it someday coming down around our heads :-))

Basically this addresses energy-transmission cost-effectiveness (in the broadest "cost sense", ie. both $ and system-performance degradation).

So currently, we have candidates of:

1. Mechanical Power transmission (strong-light tethers, rods, mechanisms),
2.  Electrical Power transmission (low-frequency conductor-based),
3.  Pneumatic  Power transmission (hoses)
4.  Electromagnetic Power transmission (Star-war beam techniques)

As far as I know, no one has published a definitive analysis of this issue (should be a good senior or graduate student project).  Defining the rules for such comparisons may prove tricky since our "real criteria" in the end is ROI and COP (that depends upon total system design), nevertheless, such attempts at an "analytical fly-off" (of sorts) would be fascinating.....it also might be a stimulating platform for "AWE list kibitzing". IF the AWE List can agree on the rules for such a "Energy transmission" fly-off, it actually might have a chance of coming up with rules for an AWE contest :-)   Likely the most productive approach would be to simplify the list of candidates to the "long skinny-line category" (eliminate Star-wars for now) and cut-ones' teeth  on that before attempting a more global comparison.

OF course such a fly-off would NOT be the ONLY decision criteria for AWE successful design-selection, but it certainly could have significant bearing on some decisions, maybe ruling out certain approaches, so folks don't even waste their time on them.

DaveL



At 5:13 PM -0500 11/28/11, Dan Parker wrote: