A mix for sure.

A hybrid is formulating in my mind whereby ...

seed spinner component is nearest the ground. On top of the seed wings are a reciprocal set of lines to the bottom set, linked to the bottom set in a loop (pink line)

the top line set runs into the top hoop of the now fluted double disk disk spinner design. the lines go round a small wheel capstan .
linked to two larger diameter winders.

inside the top disk thin foil kite lines are wound onto the two larger winders.

Here's how it works:
1. top Sled and swivel assisted launch.
2. in lox wind stack can be kept in the air by spinning the base and pulling the pink line down.
3. at higher speeds release the line to extend the kites. (separate control lines are of course possibly run up sides of seed spinner stems)
4. extended high speed kites take over function of rotating the whole stack

An addendum to my post on linking a seed and disk spinner system:

They can fly much more effectively with separate controls for the seed wings and kites.

Quote of big Dave S a few seconds ago"

"Since we cannot avoid flying mass we must master it.
Many AWECs will be based on inertial flight dynamics."

Seed wings can lift the stack initially to give way on retraction to a falling stack style launch of kite spinners.

I have some aircraft design experience that I can put my opinion to your positives. I don't yet know how well that experience applies to wind power as I am relatively new to it.

A ducted fan out performs a prop of the SAME DIAMETER.
If that additional material was used to make the prop diameter larger then the prop would outperform the ducted fan.

If something limits the diameter of your prop then ducting it is a good way to improve performance. Like the ram air turbine that is stowed most of it's life.

If the prop is already surrounded by structure then the additional material needed to duct it is less, therefor ducting is more likely to make sense.

The Honeywell turbine does not seem to be made by Honeywell.
True.

Yes. But almost anything we work with can be a wing.

True.
Lifting bodies contain expensive and massive amounts of gas. They have a lot of drag except at extremely large scale. That is a whole other topic.
But a open fan can always be larger for the same cost.
In my opinion supersonic flows are far removed from wind power. The air compresses far more and Bernoulli's principal applies far less. But then I never studied supersonic air flows.
True. And significant.
Again for an equal diameter.
Probably not at the gigawatt wind power scale.
Yes. That is the ducted fan magic. But again a larger open prop more than compensates for that.
A larger blade is also more visible but not as much. Seems like an expensive way to be more visible.
I don't know. But if seagulls will not fly under wires at land fills then I think you may have a point. Unless they nest on the duct while it is not in motion.
Again supersonic flows seem far removed. Additionally I think the SuperTurbine is not intended as an axial flow device.
I don't know, but probably.
I don't know.

Hope that helps.

Brian

I am very skeptical that you can engineer anything that can produce useful power in a good wind, and still be light enough to be sustained with power from the ground, when that power has to provide the lift to tension the driveshaft so that it can do its job.  Have you tried out the diameter/tension calculations yet?

SOL  has confirmed interest in serving the nascent AWE industry via their capabilities.

http://www.energykitesystems.net/AWEstakeholders/index.html#SOL

Their 20 years experience and over-100 employees  might partner on your AWE project.

JoeF

Disclaimer: I have no personal or business connection with SOL.

 

 

http://www.archive.org/details/cu31924024020707

Gilbert T. Woglom's book

Parakites

On left of the reached page, download full classic in format of your choice.

Dave S, I think I first heard of phonons when I was a teenager in the 1970's. If most of your fysicist phriends don't know what a phreakin' phonon is, they must not be very bright, since the word is self-explanatory, and has been so exhaustively used as to be impossible for any physicist not to have run across many times. They are probably government employees.

YES all you say IS blather, the peanut gallery screaming (mostly nonsense) from the sidelines.
For instance the following statement you just made:

That statement is SO full-of-it.
You are just SO SO SO full of it.
Wind energy is approximated mathematically as an incompressible flow.
YOU will NEVER have a ducted turbine in the jet stream (you talk as though it is tomorrow's simple, already-scheduled task - sure Dave, always tomorrow) and if anyone DOES, it will NOT support a high TSR without going supersonic.

"Ahhh yes, ahh ROger that delta-niner, we're deploying our high-pressure phonon-wave jet-stream kite turbine at T-minus 10... 9... 8 (trillion) - Oh I forget - this is all virtual! (then he woke up)

Thanks for mentioning my name in your posts. There must be some reason you mention me in every post and I am duly flattered. :)

Let's see you put reality where your big, Doug-fixated mouth is, and build something besides large stacks of meaningless words. You have a great gift for writing, but that can be a problem if there isn't anything behind it. I hope you are enjoying your fantasy. SO far I can't really find many of your Nostradamus-like "predictions" coming true, especially the ones (typical) that involve your own future activities. I find the least accurate statements people make involve the one thing they actually have control of: their own activities.

How is all the WOW stuff you were bragging about coming along?
With all those millions at your fingertips? Where's the beef? (daily beefing about "Doug" doesn't count).

Have a day!.....
Doug S.

(bloggin'... bloggin'... bloggin' the day away!
bloggin'... bloggin'... bloggin' the day away!...)

Darin:
Not sure when you say "this" wind lens... did you forget to include a link? "Lens" sounds catchy but it is still a version of a duct, shroud, concentrator, vacuum diffuser, etc. (there SO many names, over SO many years, for similar or related concepts).

We can buy off-the-shelf rotors with spinning rings attached to the blade tips - they are on display at the annual Windpower trade show.
Independently-spinning rings on bearings could indeed act as landing gear, and allow the turbine to re-aim while on the ground in response to changing wind directions.

The resulting circle on the ground would take up the same tower-fall perimeter already required by zoning and building codes for wind turbines.
Hey quit reading my engineering notebook!
:)
Doug S.

Darin gave a text link to this same for the wind lens:

http://youtu.be/ifF-MOuzM_s

Will such design be taken to upper winds by tether tactics?  ROI?

 

There's already a big annual kite event in Swift Current, Saskatchewan.  It is more central to North America than California, and not expensive.

Perhaps we could arrange a charter from Calgary?  Airports and long tubes are not the ideal conference facility, but they work for short, informal sessions.  

PS - Calgary is just the sort of airport that is likely to have a few underused corporate aircraft hanging around that might be used to earn sponsorship brownie points.

A natural sponsor would be 3m,
as we are going to need an awful big roll of tape
and a whole load of string

Rod Read

15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878

How many attendees? How many exhibitors? Outdoor display space? Actual kite flying? Breakout sessions?

I can't find rundowns of this from the past conferences.

Brian

Yes, I had always assumed that a jet would be supersonic internally. I had to go check that statement and found your right.

I still would maintain that just because a jet works much better as a ducted fan is not a strong indication that a ducted fan is an economically good way to extract wind power.

The jet stream is perhaps an exception. I don't know if a mobile platform at sea could keep up with the jet streams wanderings. That is a whole other thread.

If we have to explain gigawatt systems in units of phonons I think our heads will explode. After the entire stream of words from our mouths turns to blather for everyone. I'll just watch, thank you. ;)

Brian

We could have it at my house.
Oak Hills, California has the highest proportion of homes powered by small wind turbines of any area in the world.
I have a 5000 sq ft garage
conference room
plenty of parking
20 acres of mostly open space
large adjacent fields for kite-flying
2 miles from the 15 Freeway (LA= nearby hotels
productive wind nearly every day
wind-powered facility
Ontario, California airport (ONT) 40 min away
:)
Doug S.

Excited about a new configuration concept I sketched out last night.

I was windsurfing for the firt time in a year yesterday after bursting 3 disks... The sail got me thinking...

I eventually came up with this

Vertical axis, vertical inflated mast tubes, bottom to mid sewn together in a circle around axis. Bottom to have radially protruding inflated spar like boom tied back to next tube in circle. Sails axially mounted up side of tubes. Generator ring and control lines at bottom.

I know that is a very loose description. I appologise for the brevity.
Drawing to follow.

Basically it's a vortex generator, you can put the disk spinner at the top too. (made and destroyed a tiny disk spinner 11 sleds today)

Because of the inflated cellular rising construction, there is an inherent level of safety. And of course it could be used upside down in the ocean, when the masts are filled with water... nifty eh.

control lines can be run all the way down too.

plus it takes the perfect downwind lead to strut upto an overhead web.

anyone getting this?

Windsurfing is great for the planet!

What is about virtual conference for example in Second World or any other virtual world? It can take place 1-2 times a year like an intermediate event for real one. As I know there is quit good experience for such conference by different firms. It's gives a chance for many people who have no possibility to visit a confrence real. I think, this group can be a "host" for realization of this idea, while it has already a good experience of consolidation people from all over the world in virtual space.
A virtual world gives also possibility to present projects more clear by 3-d models. Also can be set up multy video conference from places where real models installed

Well now that it's in the list, I have to say I agree with Dave on this one. The family unit size may often be a more environmentally friendly size for a lot of things. But the idea that it should be automatically preferred makes no sense to me. The 1952 London disaster is an excellent example. And I have seen LOTS of examples of people doing things that would get us in a world of hurt if we all did it that way. I could go on and on with examples but it has little to do with this groups purpose.

Brian

OK on the array front...
Today my mission is a new kinda sketch... I think

A kite array with piezoelectric multilayer bending actuators. The array is going to be 3d.
Each kite will have one or more piezoelectric multilayer bending actuators.
The top layer of the array will be set out and addressed as per VGA (yes video) standards. e.g. a printed cut set of micro kite ribbons glued side by side with...
Below each node will hang a reciprocally vibrating fish tail ribbon(as per Dave S design) At the bottom of each tail will be Piezoelectric energy harvesting circuits.
below that will be a kite layer
below that will be a generator layer
...

I am concerned that "Particular attention must always be paid to ensuring that the mechanical strain arising during deformation of the piezoceramic shows the same orientation overall" http://www.piezoproducts.com/index.php?id=144&L=0

In a stable array like this though... Up is the average tension vector.

I'm pretty sure this can be done.
Phew back to electronics at last my home turf....
probably where I'll go furthest wrong

Actually
A tall wide shallow (shallow downwind single kite even) array is probably better than say a 640 (wide) x 480 (deep downwind) vga x tall standard.

Makes more sense ... downwind kites would all suffer wind shaddow ... but would add to structural redundancy and stability of mesh...

Single front array of kites with tails downwind can be print cut easily though.
And it will make for easy back attachment of generator wings using a reel to scroll the kite print sheet ... alligning the gen strings between the kite cuts at the back... yep that's it
ok off to draw

Sketch should now be in the photos section ...
if not it's on my site.

Anyone know a good large scale rolling, cutting, seeming process facilities engineer?
Have been asking piezo folks about in-line stringing. awaiting response.

Kite design is one of the most weight-sensitive jobs in engineering,
so I would like to recommend the works of J.E. Gordon as being by far
the easiest way to get a sense for what approaches tend to work, and
why. Rather than start right off with definitions and math, he tells
the story of the first students of science to come to an
understanding of what was going on all around them. In particular,
"Structures" has a chapter on designing for minimum weight that
explains why faster airplanes always have fewer wires and struts
exposed. Large, lightly loaded artifacts can only be made
efficiently if based on tension structures for a few inescapable
mathematical reasons, and he explains them in excellent, entertaining
english. Did you know that the "bicycle" wheel was actually invented
for an attempt at an airplane around 1850? The actual math is very
simple, but he keeps it to just a few handy formulas in the appendix
for those who want to start serious calculations. With a good
understanding of the forces at work, a few operations on a basic
calculator can tell you how light you can go on any particular
member, closer than the usual range for selection.

Best,
Bob Stuart

Forum members are invited to add links to the folder:

Structural design for kite systems

and add sub-folders that fit your focus, if needed.

This discussion is a microcosm of the same exact discussion in real wind energy, that has gone on for years.
It's just one more distraction, one more false dichotomy, one more phantom issue...

I'm gonna guess all of the people on this list use utility power exclusively.
Now on a real wind energy list, I wouldn't be able to say that because half the people are off-grid with battery sheds, half are net-metering, and half are just lurking/learning. (And they are so dumb they don't even realize they are 3 halves! kidding!)

Back to this list: Any of you COULD make a wind turbine and power your home (which you can (anyone CAN) but you won't...) - well most of you would probably have to move to a windy area. But NONE of you have made your own turbine (gee how did I know that?). So I posit that this is just an academic discussion. The proof: that most people use utility power, is self-evident. People could build their own cars, grow their own food, but few do, since specialization is a hallmark of modern society.

So here's how real wind-powered electricity evolved:
First small turbines popped up all across America's midwest so people could power a few light bulbs and a radio, to be in touch with the world.

That gave the industry lots of experience learning how the pedestal-fan model of a wind turbine worked. They piggybacked on the overspeed protection geometry that had been developed over decades/centuries for water-pumping turbines. The main difference was the low-solidity rotors to attain the high RPM and efficiency required for generating electricity. 1000 years of this basic pedestal-fan design gave a good basis of design and operational experience.

After decades of small turbines, with a few large monstrosity electric-wind-turbine demos that quickly failed (like almost all new turbine designs), having been built too big, too fast, these large machines nonetheless made good power before failure and showed it could be done.

Then because of the first energy crisis of the late 1970's, in the early 1980's, sufficient tax incentives were implemented that a whole industry emerged. A new generation of 50 kW+ machines were installed, most of which are now proven failures, but the Danish were able to construct a sufficiently simple and robust design that it survived and resulted in today's huge wind energy industry.

So the way it works is the main learning takes place at a scale where mistakes are not as costly. Once the small-scale models have enough bugs worked out that there is sufficient confidence to move to a larger scale, that transition will take place at such time as sufficient incentives are put in place, or when the numbers become too compelling to NOT build larger ones.

At some point, it goes to utility-scale. Most people are too busy to make their own windpower and most people simply don't live where it's windy. Of those who live in windy areas, most don't have enough space for a real installation. This will be even more true of airborne. And of those who have enough space, few have enough money. Of those who have wind, space, and sufficient money, most are still not interested, and too busy with their daily lives.

So how anyone could sit around debating whether airborne wind energy "should" power remote cottages or the grid, the answer is it will start small powering a few cottages, then when it gets more proven, it will power the grid.

Have a day!!!!!!!
:)
Doug S.

Hi
I just wanted to expand a bit on my posting offering my home as a site for an AWE conference.
Besides my place per se, there is a LOT of open desert around here...
but we have enough garage and conference space that an event could be held here.

One thought was that we could have a smaller event, not necessarily a full-blown international conference, though anyone from anywhere would certainly be welcome, but perhaps a smaller flyoff event. The number of attendees would be smaller, since renderings and sketches are not airworthy without further development.

One thing I'd like to try is human-lifting kites! Sounds like fun!
Or any contraption that is cutting-edge and wind-powered.

Anyway this is a very large place with a LOT of wind, and there's plenty of room for quite a few teams to get something in the air, with large overhead doors and 14-foot ceilings, to get things indoors if the weather turns hostile, or just for working/assembly/storage.

If anyone wants to come by you are welcome, and for anyone who lives near Oak Hills, California, come on by and fly your rig, or help me fabricate and fly prototypes as well as tower-based turbines, generators, and associated electronics, in production!
:)
Doug S.

So, If most of the energy we want to collect comes from small scale periodic vibration...

We need to work out

With our best thin film piezo and or microfluidic internals kite wing...

What is the full spectral energy vector of vibration?

Then

How can we design piezo circuits in a skin to best accumulate that energy?

It sounds to me like the best sponsors for a convention, The people most interested in making our future a success as it complements their own growth ... would now be MEMSindustries, AMD, Intel, ARM take your pick

rod

OK... So we all agree that Airborne Wind Power is an excellent idea.

A bicycle wheel with spokes from rope, by the way, can be a good idea for light turbine.

Airborne wind turbines to be tested in Limestone  

Sep 26, 2011 - McClatchy-Tribune Regional News
- Jen Lynds Bangor Daily News, Maine

== Altaeros secures space to run tests.

Site:  http://www.appme.org/facilities/commerce.asp

A bicycle wheel is a wonderfully efficient design for its purpose, and can benefit from Kevlar spokes.  If you have a bike wheel and want to cobble together a small generator, it can save time.  However, as a turbine design, it leaves much to be desired.  The spokes encourage a high-solidity disk, which is mostly superfluous.  The rim, like other ducts, is material that would do more good adding to the swept area.  A few designs take advantage of the high rim speed to improve transmission efficiency, but this comes at the cost of bearing complexity and friction.  

Leafkite, leafkites, leaf kite.  AWECS from the far past?
Convert wind's kinetic energy to:

• lift mass
• make vibrations
• form sound
• move arms and bodies
• tug and tow

http://youtu.be/kwoANBaXLBg
Leafkites, the oldest way to make kites in the world - Sulawesi, Indonesia

I'm starting to wonder how possible it is to use wind to do more than even all that...
Is anyone aware of any history using the air itself as the energy transfer medium?
using pipes compressed from above as our tether lines...
Too heavy?