Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                       AWES3995to4044 Page 60 of 79.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3995 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/21/2011
Subject: Re: Visit from WOW, New York Interns

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3996 From: paolo musumeci Date: 8/21/2011
Subject: Re: Visit from WOW, New York Interns

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3997 From: Dan Parker Date: 8/22/2011
Subject: Re: Speed of Kite-towed ships

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3998 From: mmarchitti Date: 8/22/2011
Subject: Re: Allocating Private Investment in AWE R&D ("WOW America")

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3999 From: christopher carlin Date: 8/22/2011
Subject: Re: Speed of Kite-towed ships

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4000 From: dave santos Date: 8/23/2011
Subject: SeaGlider Progress

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4001 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/23/2011
Subject: Re: SeaGlider Progress

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4002 From: dave santos Date: 8/23/2011
Subject: Re: Allocating Private Investment in AWE R&D ("WOW America")

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4003 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 8/23/2011
Subject: Re: SeaGlider Progress

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4004 From: harry valentine Date: 8/23/2011
Subject: Re: Speed of Kite-towed ships

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4005 From: Darin Selby Date: 8/23/2011
Subject: Re: SeaGlider Progress

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4006 From: harry valentine Date: 8/23/2011
Subject: Re: Speed of Kite-towed ships - SpiralAirFoil

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4007 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/23/2011
Subject: Re: SeaGlider Progress

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4008 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 8/23/2011
Subject: Re: Allocating Private Investment in AWE R&D ("WOW America")

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4009 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/23/2011
Subject: Re: SeaGlider Progress

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4010 From: Dan Parker Date: 8/24/2011
Subject: Re: Speed of Kite-towed ships - SpiralAirFoil

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4011 From: Doug Date: 8/24/2011
Subject: Re: SeaGlider Progress

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4012 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 8/24/2011
Subject: Re: SeaGlider Progress

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4013 From: Dave Lang Date: 8/24/2011
Subject: Re: SeaGlider Progress

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4014 From: dave santos Date: 8/24/2011
Subject: Re: SeaGlider Progress

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4015 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/24/2011
Subject: Re: SeaGlider Progress

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4016 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/24/2011
Subject: Re: SeaGlider Progress

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4017 From: Dave Lang Date: 8/24/2011
Subject: Re: SeaGlider Progress

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4018 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 8/24/2011
Subject: Re: SeaGlider Progress

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4019 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: FlygenKite versus lighting

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4020 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Re: Visit from WOW, New York Interns

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4021 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Re: FlygenKite versus lighting

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4022 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Re: FlygenKite versus lighting

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4023 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Re: FlygenKite versus lighting

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4024 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Trains and stacks of narrow-spread tether set

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4025 From: Andrew K Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Re: SeaGlider Progress

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4026 From: Rein-Art Info Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Re: Trains and stacks of narrow-spread tether set

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4027 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Re: SeaGlider Progress

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4028 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Re: Trains and stacks of narrow-spread tether set

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4029 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Re: SeaGlider Progress

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4030 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Re: SeaGlider Progress

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4031 From: dave santos Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Re: Trains and stacks of narrow-spread tether set

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4032 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Re: Trains and stacks of narrow-spread tether set

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4033 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Re: Trains and stacks of narrow-spread tether set

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4034 From: dave santos Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Re: Trains and stacks of narrow-spread tether set

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4035 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Irregularity and perhaps not so good output in crosswind motion

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4036 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Re: THE BETZ AREA RATIO...A COMPARISON STANDARD FOR WIND-POWER DEVIC

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4037 From: North, David D. (LARC-E402) Date: 8/26/2011
Subject: Re: Irregularity and perhaps not so good output in crosswind motion

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4038 From: stefano.cianchetta Date: 8/26/2011
Subject: Re: Irregularity and perhaps not so good output in crosswind motion

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4039 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/26/2011
Subject: SkySails Power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4040 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/26/2011
Subject: Smart lines

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4041 From: dave santos Date: 8/26/2011
Subject: Re: Irregularity and perhaps not so good output in crosswind motion

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4042 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 8/26/2011
Subject: Re: Irregularity and perhaps not so good output in crosswind motion

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4043 From: North, David D. (LARC-E402) Date: 8/26/2011
Subject: Re: Irregularity and perhaps not so good output in crosswind motion

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4044 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/26/2011
Subject: Re: Irregularity and perhaps not so good output in crosswind motion



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3995 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/21/2011
Subject: Re: Visit from WOW, New York Interns
Paolo,
       Would you describe the size and design of the kite you used?
Thanks in advance.
JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3996 From: paolo musumeci Date: 8/21/2011
Subject: Re: Visit from WOW, New York Interns
sure Joe, was a sled 168x100 cm

also i have a short movie if Doug is agree i'll post on youtube and also in our blog

bye

PM

--
Paolo Musumeci






2011/8/21 Joe Faust <joefaust333@gmail.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3997 From: Dan Parker Date: 8/22/2011
Subject: Re: Speed of Kite-towed ships
Harry,
 
         Might you consider the SpiralAirfoil.
 
                                                       Dan'l
 
To: airbornewindenergy@yahoogroups.com
From: harrycv@hotmail.com
Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 16:28:30 +0000
Subject: RE: [AWECS] Speed of Kite-towed ships

 
Thanks All,
 
 
I've been asked to do an article on a kite-powered ship/boat/watercraft with a turbine mounted underneath it .  .  . a version of a water-based kitegen system. The watercraft would sail to-and-fro, transversely to the wind .  .  .  . pulled by high-flying kites. At over 4m/s (7.8-knots) most kinetic turbines become useless .  . .    need to use a different design of water turbine, such as a low-head turbine (from a low-head power dam). The watercraft would be tethered to an island .  .  . the tether would carry electric power to the island and perhaps via submarine cable to nearby mainland cities. A speed of 10-knots to 15-knots would assure that the water turbine would operate at near or over 80% efficiency,
 
 
Thanks,
 
 
Harry

 
To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: christopher.m.carlin@btinternet.com
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 05:55:47 +0100
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Speed of Kite-towed ships

 
This is a guess but I'd say over 10 knots if a significant commercial vessel - coast wise trader of a couple thousand tons - not over 20. A good design number would probably be between 12 and 16. Another way to look at this is that hull speed on a vessel is roughly 1.3xsqrt(waterlinelength). Drag rise due to wave drag gets excessive at .75 of hull speed. So a 100 foot or even a 200 foot vessel is unlikely to operate much over 10 knots. A typical 400 foot 5000 ton ship will operate at 16 knots with about 5000 shp. If you want to go faster you have to get lots bigger. Say 1000 feet.

Hope this helps
Chris 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3998 From: mmarchitti Date: 8/22/2011
Subject: Re: Allocating Private Investment in AWE R&D ("WOW America")
--- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, dave santos <santos137@... Of course, it is a very long story. In fact, when I saw you in Italy, the first time, WITHOUT BEING PRIOR INFORMED, I spoke just with you for a couple of hours. Then I send you some mails and I invited you to continue our conversation in order that I could add important information on the project and others important details.


Sure, but you miss the first most important point that I tried to explain to you, and you miss also the second important point that I wrote to you.


You need an idea, a technlogy, something to show; it is not sufficient to say: we are working on "high altitude wind", that is like to saying that we are working on "solar panels". AnyHow, sweat equity should has been one of the key factors on developping KiteGen, we tried desperately to arrive to a procedure to account for that. But you know sweat equity, as financial equity, has to have some rules, someone who decides wether a task has been accomplished or not, and the value for it, etc. Otherwise I can say that this wording with you must have a sweat equity reward. By the way, has WOW America a statute?


We call it Cavaliere Bianco, the White Horseman; however, remember Blaise Pascal on angel and evil

I don't undersand this remark. However, thank God, KiteGen did not rely only on 1.2kEuro from WOW, fortunately there were also some other funds. Developping a new technolgy, like that one, is a very daring and compelling task, on several aspects, and I think it can be compared to the Manhattan project or Apollo project: the technology on the polymeric cables, the carbon fiber kite, the flight control, the sensor fusion, the nanogage sensors, the transmission, the buffer power based on supercap, just to name a few, from the technical point of view.


When you decide to change your house or apartment I think you must have in mind another one. You do not just say: ok let's go out from that, and stay on the street and we will see. Can you tell me something - NOW for WOW - that can have more chanches? or superior technology or superior developpment?


I offered you a logical pattern to consider the evaluatin of a technology.

See you, Mario
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 3999 From: christopher carlin Date: 8/22/2011
Subject: Re: Speed of Kite-towed ships
Dear Harry,

If you're tethering the vessel and purely trying to generate power then a displacement vessel which I've been giving you data on is the wrong approach. What you need is something more like a kite-board or foil borne vessel oscillating back and forth across the prevailing wind. Reaching these can go very fast 20 to 40 knots. Also note there is a research power collection hub in place off the coast of Cornwall which might be a place to implement this.

Regards,

Chris  
On Aug 21, 2011, at 5:28 PM, harry valentine wrote:
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4000 From: dave santos Date: 8/23/2011
Subject: SeaGlider Progress
From AYRS list (no name provided), progress by the French SeaGlider (HAPA) team-
 
==========included message=============
 
Found this link on a kitesurf site:
WWW.seaglider.fr
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4001 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/23/2011
Subject: Re: SeaGlider Progress
Great scalable method!
Fly across the oceans above the water while the paravane (water kite)
takes the beating of the waves. Cabins at mid tether. Multiple kites
at various strata controlled to give the balance and direction wanted.
This is a double kite system: air kite and water kite. Place cabin
in some versions in wings. Other systems will have manned or cargo
cabins at mid-tether for touchdown to water when wanted or needed. New
aviation. The K3 is evolving, the AWE era ... Congrats to Seaglider
team!
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4002 From: dave santos Date: 8/23/2011
Subject: Re: Allocating Private Investment in AWE R&D ("WOW America")
Mario,
 
Thanks for the details about KiteGen (KGR). It is a leading AWE project, but observers report progress from many teams worldwide. For your example, just last week Rob (WindLift) got an initial official validation of his system by NREL, a key milestone in the US. His peak power in testing has topped 70kw and the upcoming system will surely do more. We are (almost all) aiming at gigawatt scale clean energy.
 
My own diverse small systems have flown well (by themselves- inherent stability) for some years now and are intended to scale up beyond even a KGR Carousel (by capital cost and cost per installed watt). Now there are at least a dozen other small experimenters getting good results (like Pierre). Because of all the worldwide progress, a small team like KGR is unable to make the case for a monopoly on investment. Nobody's patents are proven essential either: Open-source AWE seems to have won.
 
WOW America is incorporated as a US corporation in New York and intends to be diversified in the AWE R&D sector. I do not have any official role (yet), but do know of impressive inside progress and generally recommend that KGR cooperatively  participate on all levels (board, funding, etc.), so as to not be left out,
 
daveS
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4003 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 8/23/2011
Subject: Re: SeaGlider Progress
Stéphane Rousson is one among the team:some realizations are blimp with pedals,blimp carrying persons a little over the sea,a tether linking the blimp to a sort of drift in the water (the drift is called "chien de mer" and is an invention from Didier Costes).

PierreB
http://flygenkite.com




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4004 From: harry valentine Date: 8/23/2011
Subject: Re: Speed of Kite-towed ships
Many thanks for this Chris .  .  .  . this concept seems quite workable. There are existing hydraulic turbines that can be attached to the vessel and be capable of handling the high dynamic water pressure.
 
 
This type of kite-gen system appears quite workable .  .  . and can include the work already undertaken by Dave L and Dave S.
 
Harry

 
To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: christopher.m.carlin@btinternet.com
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 04:14:16 +0100
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Speed of Kite-towed ships

 
Dear Harry,

If you're tethering the vessel and purely trying to generate power then a displacement vessel which I've been giving you data on is the wrong approach. What you need is something more like a kite-board or foil borne vessel oscillating back and forth across the prevailing wind. Reaching these can go very fast 20 to 40 knots. Also note there is a research power collection hub in place off the coast of Cornwall which might be a place to implement this.

Regards,

Chris  
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4005 From: Darin Selby Date: 8/23/2011
Subject: Re: SeaGlider Progress
Is there possibly a picture showing the cabins at mid tether?  

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: joefaust333@gmail.com
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 10:21:18 -0700
Subject: Re: [AWECS] SeaGlider Progress

 
Great scalable method!
Fly across the oceans above the water while the paravane (water kite)
takes the beating of the waves. Cabins at mid tether. Multiple kites
at various strata controlled to give the balance and direction wanted.
This is a double kite system: air kite and water kite. Place cabin
in some versions in wings. Other systems will have manned or cargo
cabins at mid-tether for touchdown to water when wanted or needed. New
aviation. The K3 is evolving, the AWE era ... Congrats to Seaglider
team!
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4006 From: harry valentine Date: 8/23/2011
Subject: Re: Speed of Kite-towed ships - SpiralAirFoil
Hi Dan,
 
I may consider SpiralAirFoil in another article .  .  .  . I publish internationally in energy sector periodicals.
 
Harry
 
To: airbornewindenergy@yahoogroups.com
From: spiralairfoil@hotmail.com
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 11:22:46 -0400
Subject: RE: [AWECS] Speed of Kite-towed ships

 
Harry,
 
         Might you consider the SpiralAirfoil.
 
                                                       Dan'l
 
To: airbornewindenergy@yahoogroups.com
From: harrycv@hotmail.com
Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 16:28:30 +0000
Subject: RE: [AWECS] Speed of Kite-towed ships

 
Thanks All,
 
 
I've been asked to do an article on a kite-powered ship/boat/watercraft with a turbine mounted underneath it .  .  . a version of a water-based kitegen system. The watercraft would sail to-and-fro, transversely to the wind .  .  .  . pulled by high-flying kites. At over 4m/s (7.8-knots) most kinetic turbines become useless .  . .    need to use a different design of water turbine, such as a low-head turbine (from a low-head power dam). The watercraft would be tethered to an island .  .  . the tether would carry electric power to the island and perhaps via submarine cable to nearby mainland cities. A speed of 10-knots to 15-knots would assure that the water turbine would operate at near or over 80% efficiency,
 
 
Thanks,
 
 
Harry

 
To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: christopher.m.carlin@btinternet.com
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 05:55:47 +0100
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Speed of Kite-towed ships

 
This is a guess but I'd say over 10 knots if a significant commercial vessel - coast wise trader of a couple thousand tons - not over 20. A good design number would probably be between 12 and 16. Another way to look at this is that hull speed on a vessel is roughly 1.3xsqrt(waterlinelength). Drag rise due to wave drag gets excessive at .75 of hull speed. So a 100 foot or even a 200 foot vessel is unlikely to operate much over 10 knots. A typical 400 foot 5000 ton ship will operate at 16 knots with about 5000 shp. If you want to go faster you have to get lots bigger. Say 1000 feet.

Hope this helps
Chris 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4007 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/23/2011
Subject: Re: SeaGlider Progress
--- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, Darin Selby <darin_selby@... +++++++++++++
--- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, Darin Selby <darin_selby@... ++++++++++++
Darin,
1. Very early patent: _______ (someplace in www.kitepatents.com ?______. ) The patent was foundational for kite shipping. The claims and drawings show men in mid-tether as the tug kites operate to pull a water-hull (which stands for the paravane).

2. Stephane's pilot place is actually at mid-tether, as tethering is above the pilot place and tether is below pilot place while the water kite (paravane) is kiting in the water.

3. Europe contemporary university group has drawings on line: ________ for their proposal for the mid-tether double-media double-kite system. We have it someplace in group and in files at EnergyKiteSystems.

4. See SkySails water-hull as the paravane; see the control unit aloft as cabin of things; see top wing as the driving air kite.

5. See kite messengers in dynamic paravane resisted bi-media-bi-kite system as mid-tether cabin of things.

In this thread, the images mentioned will be posted by me or someone soon for handiness and continuity.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4008 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 8/23/2011
Subject: Re: Allocating Private Investment in AWE R&D ("WOW America")
DaveS,

You are making a very good job for the extension of WOW towards USA.So extension of founding should follow it.It is not necessary and not good to share parts of KGR into several projects;it is better to increase the global amount of investments.And for it a bigger KGR can be a good basis.I give an example:now for FlygenKite investments are not required since I prepare a commercial small version without any help or industrial making,only my hands.But in case of some evolutions of KGR,and also of Windlift some possibilities for automatic systems can be marketed and adapted for FlygenKite if I saw an interest for it later.

Indeed Windlift is a very pertinent project,both in regard to technology and for its precise business strategy.Its technology,as reel-out/in is not so far to KGR Stem.One can imagine than technologic exchanges between Windlift and KGR (in case of the accord of respective CEO of course) could accelerate their evolution about some point.

AWE can progress towards GW scale according (both) two ways:centralized installation with a solid storage according to capacity factor,or multiple decentralized installations where your schemes (passive-control) can be useful,for example for lighting in regions without grid.

Note:India could be a major actor in AWE:high level of searchers,project for implementation of SkyMill Energy (jet stream),needs for lighting in some regions (wind can exist by night,not solar energy;morever light allows putting away tigers and leopards!):I see some systems between trees.

PierreB

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4009 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/23/2011
Subject: Re: SeaGlider Progress

Toward point "1."  See all drawings in

Aerial Apparatus
David Thayer Patent number : US 417755     Filing date : Jul 22, 1889  

======================================================
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4010 From: Dan Parker Date: 8/24/2011
Subject: Re: Speed of Kite-towed ships - SpiralAirFoil
Hi Harry,
 
               Thanks for the consideration.
 
                                                           Dan'l
 
To: airbornewindenergy@yahoogroups.com
From: harrycv@hotmail.com
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 18:36:28 +0000
Subject: RE: [AWECS] Speed of Kite-towed ships - SpiralAirFoil

 
Hi Dan,
 
I may consider SpiralAirFoil in another article .  .  .  . I publish internationally in energy sector periodicals.
 
Harry
 
To: airbornewindenergy@yahoogroups.com
From: spiralairfoil@hotmail.com
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 11:22:46 -0400
Subject: RE: [AWECS] Speed of Kite-towed ships

 
Harry,
 
         Might you consider the SpiralAirfoil.
 
                                                       Dan'l
 
To: airbornewindenergy@yahoogroups.com
From: harrycv@hotmail.com
Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 16:28:30 +0000
Subject: RE: [AWECS] Speed of Kite-towed ships

 
Thanks All,
 
 
I've been asked to do an article on a kite-powered ship/boat/watercraft with a turbine mounted underneath it .  .  . a version of a water-based kitegen system. The watercraft would sail to-and-fro, transversely to the wind .  .  .  . pulled by high-flying kites. At over 4m/s (7.8-knots) most kinetic turbines become useless .  . .    need to use a different design of water turbine, such as a low-head turbine (from a low-head power dam). The watercraft would be tethered to an island .  .  . the tether would carry electric power to the island and perhaps via submarine cable to nearby mainland cities. A speed of 10-knots to 15-knots would assure that the water turbine would operate at near or over 80% efficiency,
 
 
Thanks,
 
 
Harry

 
To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: christopher.m.carlin@btinternet.com
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 05:55:47 +0100
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Speed of Kite-towed ships

 
This is a guess but I'd say over 10 knots if a significant commercial vessel - coast wise trader of a couple thousand tons - not over 20. A good design number would probably be between 12 and 16. Another way to look at this is that hull speed on a vessel is roughly 1.3xsqrt(waterlinelength). Drag rise due to wave drag gets excessive at .75 of hull speed. So a 100 foot or even a 200 foot vessel is unlikely to operate much over 10 knots. A typical 400 foot 5000 ton ship will operate at 16 knots with about 5000 shp. If you want to go faster you have to get lots bigger. Say 1000 feet.

Hope this helps
Chris 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4011 From: Doug Date: 8/24/2011
Subject: Re: SeaGlider Progress
I've been dreaming about this general idea since I was a kid too...
Glad somebody is finally taking it on.
:)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4012 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 8/24/2011
Subject: Re: SeaGlider Progress

Video of Seaglider

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4013 From: Dave Lang Date: 8/24/2011
Subject: Re: SeaGlider Progress
Curious observation.....quoting from the Beaufort Scale...

"Moderate Breeze - Beaufort 4
Wind speed is 13-to-18 mph (11-to-16 kts); wave height is 3.5 to 5 ft. Small waves, becoming larger; fairly frequent whitecaps"

Maybe the wind speed stated in the video was in error.

DaveL



At 5:23 PM +0000 8/24/11, Pierre Benhaiem wrote:
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4014 From: dave santos Date: 8/24/2011
Subject: Re: SeaGlider Progress
DaveL
 
The Beaufort Scale is standardized to a 10m measurement height. The kite in this rig flies at about 30m high, so with wind gradient* factored in, surface conditions seem consistent. The small waves further suggest a limited wind fetch,
 
daveS
 
 
*roughly, for every fivefold increase in height, a doubling of wind velocity


 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4015 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/24/2011
Subject: Re: SeaGlider Progress
The art from the university students in Europe is yet to be brought forward.

MEANWHILE:
http://greenmillennium.eu/images/blimpfoils.jpg
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4016 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/24/2011
Subject: Re: SeaGlider Progress
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4017 From: Dave Lang Date: 8/24/2011
Subject: Re: SeaGlider Progress
DaveS,

That could make sense if the folks doing the video were measuring wind at 30 m (they made no allusion to measurement altitude, which may have been your personal deduction in this case).  I noticed that there looked to be a pretty good fetch to me though.

Another explanation could be that, since wave building is a transient thing occurring over time, this SeaGlider excursion could have been shot BEFORE waves had time to build to the equilibrium Beaufort wind/wave correlation.

Thanks for the info.

DaveL


At 3:15 PM -0700 8/24/11, dave santos wrote:
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4018 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 8/24/2011
Subject: Re: SeaGlider Progress
Some years ago Didier Costes made this concept with a blimp with helium carrying an user.The blimp was linked to the hydrofoil;its name is "chien de mer" (dog of the sea).I (and probably other players) suggested to replace the blimp by a kite or paraglider.Arcachon' bay is protected,so waves are small.

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4019 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: FlygenKite versus lighting
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4020 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Re: Visit from WOW, New York Interns

Your experience might have been close to Doug's  as shown at

 Airborne Wind Energy: Selsam Flying Superturbine Wind Turbine Driveshaft Tethers a Kite. Demo

???
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4021 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Re: FlygenKite versus lighting
Give light from above to huge areas? Night work, play, events,
entertainment, industry? Fly arches of LEDs powered by lifted
turbines? Fly a series of kite arches beaded with LEDs pointing down
to light acres where emergency operations are taking place? Give light
to aid in making movies? Illuminate a prison courtyard? Pierre's
FlyGen Lighting Service will have customers around the world!

Program the beads of lifted light to entertain, provide message
complexes? Give light over guarded boarders?

?


--- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, "Pierre Benhaiem"
<pierre.benhaiem@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4022 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Re: FlygenKite versus lighting
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4023 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Re: FlygenKite versus lighting
JoeF,
 

Thank for your messages.FlygenKite,kite wind turbine for lighting is above all for a playful use (manual control) among model airplanes.One can see the power is not regular (the same for reel-out or other flygen using crosswind motion):light,no light,light...And it also can be an easy mean to approach a good model of trajectory for further automatic systems and...to put away tigers and leopards in India (they do not like light,and probably less irregular and violent light).I look after other comical uses.

Static AWECS could provide a regular lightning.

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4024 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Trains and stacks of narrow-spread tether set

Trains and stacks of narrow-spread anchor set

Start:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hvwq9FVPGQY    stack 300
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4025 From: Andrew K Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Re: SeaGlider Progress
Here's a book speculating on some interesting high performance sail
options that looks relevant:
"Sailloons and fliptackers: the limits to high-speed sailing" By Bernard Smith
<http://www.amazon.com/Sailloons-Fliptackers-High-Speed-Sailing-Library/dp/sitb-next/0930403657

Cute idea but I'm not sure they've really thought about how much a 747
weighs or how much helium it takes to lift a kilogram.

Andrew King
King Technical Services
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4026 From: Rein-Art Info Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Re: Trains and stacks of narrow-spread tether set
If I knew that, I would have gone to Sankt Peter Ording one day early, just to see this !
Very impressive stacking !
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4027 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Re: SeaGlider Progress


Darin, and All,

The gem for mid-tether cabin is recovered via "Hydro-Kite"  from the Tu Delft flow:
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4028 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Re: Trains and stacks of narrow-spread tether set
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4029 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Re: SeaGlider Progress
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4030 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Re: SeaGlider Progress

Noud Werter

http://www.linkedin.com/in/noudwerter


Delft University of Technology
BSc, Aerospace Engineering
2006 – 2009

Final Project: Hydrokite
The goal of this assignment was to design, in a group of 10 students, a high speed vehicle over water which is propelled by a kite. I was the Head of Design of the group and next to that I was responsible for the structural design of the cabin.

==============
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4031 From: dave santos Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Re: Trains and stacks of narrow-spread tether set
Right On,
 
This stack of 300 looks like stock Trilby kites or similar pattern, and clearly performed well. Even small kites so aggregated pull like a beast from hell sweeping the power window. Note how the video production was first-rate; train freaks are not so dweeby as we seem.
 
I helped fly* a stack of 117 kites (~1m2 Winged Boxes) at WSKIF2010 for the box kite stack record. A small carabiner up in the stack was misrigged and burst during retraction, grazing a dude's cheek like a bullet. When i hung briefly from the nearly vertical highly tensioned line, the stack did not seem to feel my paunchy weight at all.
 
While individual sticky kites are quite scale-limited, array methods allow dense aggregation to any scale. The workable upper scaling limit of classic sticky kites is about ~15m WS. Giant bamboo is suited for low-cost spars that can last for years. Arrays of even far greater kite numbers can couple (at a distance) to the world's largest generators, as hybrid plants. The challenges now are practical, not theoretical.
 
* got in the way ;^)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4032 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Re: Trains and stacks of narrow-spread tether set

In support of the topic:

Click through the text image for full patent application by Gary Dean Ragner
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4033 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Re: Trains and stacks of narrow-spread tether set
  http://www.foreverflying.com/buffalobox.html   http://www.foreverflying.com/buff101-1.jpg           101  Australia http://www.foreverflying.com/buff111-1.gif         Where Dave Santos was ... in the mix ...    Washington, USA
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4034 From: dave santos Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Re: Trains and stacks of narrow-spread tether set
The 117 kites at WSKIF2010 were WINGED boxes flown as a train, the exact Toy Story model below, which is actually a quality kite selling for about 30 USD-
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4035 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Irregularity and perhaps not so good output in crosswind motion

Windlift testing - 12 sq. m. wing .It is one on the first times when we can read one,even two energy curves in real time of flight.Datas are wing 12 m²,wind speed being 10 m/s at an altitude of 10 m.I suppose ratio L/D could be something like 4.

The red curve shows instataneous (positive or negative) power during reel out and in,and is like toothes (irregularity of power the sound also shows). During the better time power is about 5 kw,the global average (before recovering phase) is about 2.5 kw.The global cycle produces 30000 J as indicated by the blue curve going from 110 000 to 140 000 J.The time is 55 secondes.30 000/55 = 545 W for the average of the complete cycle.

We can see and listen the recovery period takes much energy,but it is not the most important problem:Windlift will can bring down these values.

But with Diehls-Loyd formula, P = 2/27. air density.kite area.cube of wind speed.CL (CL/CD)². So a 12 m² wing should produce something like 20 kw.Yes but only on power peak,not as average apparently.

So the best period,5 kw,(and a fortiori the average 2.5 kw) shows a power far to expected (at least on a better point of the croswind trajectory) 20 kw.

So to produce 2.5 MW it would need 12 000 m² of kites (it is too much in regard to ROI), or for the better 2000 m² of rigid kites (it is also too much).

What can be improved to maximize crosswind motion?

Dr Breukels' thesis can produce answers by studying the way to benefit from control of flexibility of a kite.

But the question is:is it really possible to project GW scale (with reel or flygen and crosswind motion) by multiplication of actual low output?

Or AWE should be limited to precise targets like facilitating wind access in regions without grid? (projects for jet stream are not concerned since crosswind motion is not used).

PierreB

http://flygenkite.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4036 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Re: THE BETZ AREA RATIO...A COMPARISON STANDARD FOR WIND-POWER DEVIC

Since the last post, Project Sea Tree has made some text changes in two files.

Here are the updated files in PDF format:

See: Project Sea Tree introduction

 See: Moving Root versus Dynamic Sheeting 

 

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4037 From: North, David D. (LARC-E402) Date: 8/26/2011
Subject: Re: Irregularity and perhaps not so good output in crosswind motion

Pierre,

 

Your last post is very insightful and asks many of the questions that I have been pondering. Here at NASA Langley, we are working on improving the L/D of kites (or as I like to call them “tethered flight vehicles”, it seems to get a better reception with the aero folks here at NASA!) . I realized a couple of years ago that the low L/D of existing surf kites and arc kites was going to need improvement if ground-gens were going to be competitive with higher performance aircraft-like fly-gens. I also realized from many years of kite flying that “unscheduled” landings are common and sometimes violent, so the kite construction would need to be very robust, at least during the development phases. Our first attempts are using materials like EPP foam with fiber reinforcement and coatings. The idea is to have an airfoil that can hold a much better profile tolerance than a ram air nylon kite or LEI single skin nylon surf kite and have a thinner section (maybe an 8% thickness-to chord ratio). We built a small 2kW ground-gen unit this summer to start getting test data. We just started testing last week and are starting to get data (kite speed, wind speed, line tension, line reel out/in speed, kite position data via video tracking, servo motor regen power, etc.). We’re flying “manually” now with a joystick controlling the servo motors, but plan to switch to automated flight with video tracking shortly.

 

Our main focus is in two areas:  1) improvement in system L/D (kite and line) and 2) development of simple video tracking and kite control software for automated flight.

 

Will keep you all posted on progress.

 

Dave North
Aerospace Engineer
Systems Analysis and Concepts Directorate
1 North Dryden Street, Building 1209, MS462
NASA Langley Research Center
Hampton, VA 23681-2199
Phone: (757) 864-7285
Cell: (757) 771-5367
Fax: (757) 864-1975
Email: david.d.north@nasa.gov

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4038 From: stefano.cianchetta Date: 8/26/2011
Subject: Re: Irregularity and perhaps not so good output in crosswind motion
Pierre,

I found in my archive these two documents, you may also try to elaborate these old experimental data!
They look more favourable (10m2 kite area, wind speed 3-4m/s at 500m altitude, output during production phase 1.5kW )

pag. 27-28
http://homes.esat.kuleuven.be/~optec/events/20090526_milanese.pdf

pag. 11-13
http://lorenzofagiano.altervista.org/docs/FaMiPi_TR_27082009.pdf

I found also this Laddermill video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mChu9MxDeIA

What about skysail-power?
http://www.skysails.info/english/power/development/2-demonstrator-1-mw/

Stefano C
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4039 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/26/2011
Subject: SkySails Power

SkySails makes firm statement with branching to

SkySailsPower

Brochure, 7 pages in PDF format

 Discuss functional verstions, development plans, farm visions, etc.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4040 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/26/2011
Subject: Smart lines

What is the present condition of safety critical lines? How will the condition be reported? How will the system react to the given data?   Etc.

Start:

http://www.gleistein.com/assets/pdfs/Smart-RopEx-Project-Description.pdf
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4041 From: dave santos Date: 8/26/2011
Subject: Re: Irregularity and perhaps not so good output in crosswind motion
Pierre (and DaveN),
 
WindLift is the third company to post flight video with realtime power data overlaid (TUDelft and Makani already have).
 
WindLift is not an ideal model to extrapolate from. The prototype designs flew very low and had a lot of avoidable internal friction for later optimized models to reduce. Flying higher in much stronger winds will really make a difference in your power calculations.
 
Perhaps the strangest misconception in AWE circles is that crosswind power is not possible at high altitudes, but there are multiple design paths open, such as autogyros, wingnills, and cross-country crosswind shuttling,
 
A new misconception is that flygens are somehow inherently higher L/D than groundgen ideas. Ampyx's glider-like kiteplane has a much higher L/D potential than any comparable flygen due to a thinner cable and lack of rotor disks. Also, very generally, an AWECS forced to carry more weight aloft (like generators and conductors) has less lift available for power output,
 
daveS
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4042 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 8/26/2011
Subject: Re: Irregularity and perhaps not so good output in crosswind motion
DaveN,

What I try to know is the real power from crosswind motion.What is common from all systems using crosswind motion (reel-out/in and other groundgens and flygens) is the irregularity (all curves show it) of power and an output in conformity with Diehl's-Loyd's formula but only on the tiny peak.The average power is several times lower.If you see the trajectory on FlygenKite,kite wind turbine for lighting you can see (during 1 seconde) the light does not work then works:though wind speed being 5-6 m/s and L/D of my kite being 3-4 with turbine,kite speed is at least 14 m/s (my piloting by foot is not precise),and by car the light works from 10 m/s.

It would be interesting to obtain a standard value of the average power from crosswind motion,according the real irregularities, and perhaps according to other losses the formula does not give (perhaps hysteresis Bob Stuart mentions for another aspect).

After it we can know what L/D is needed for mass production,and other needed parameters.If the power from crosswind motion is not so high L/D will must be very high,with the limit of the drag of line increasing with its length and the altitude.

PierreB 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4043 From: North, David D. (LARC-E402) Date: 8/26/2011
Subject: Re: Irregularity and perhaps not so good output in crosswind motion

DaveS,

 

Agree on all points. You are right that reel-in / reel-out ground-gens can use high L/D glider-like “kiteplanes”. And I like Ampyx’s solution. My premise is that there may be a middle ground between low L/D surf kites and high L/D glider-like craft where the cost is still very low, but performance is medium to high. And in the short term , while we get our autonomous flight controller up and running and “bullet-proof”, we need to be able to tolerate slamming into the ground many times without damage to the craft (thus the use of reinforced EPP). I am also interested in exploring the catenary / tensairity  design space of the arc kites in order to get to very low mass and simple tensile membrane designs.

 

Dave North
Aerospace Engineer
Space Mission Analysis Branch (E402)
Systems Analysis and Concepts Directorate
1 North Dryden Street, Building 1209, MS462
NASA Langley Research Center
Hampton, VA 23681-2199
Phone: (757) 864-7285
Cell: (757) 771-5367
Fax: (757) 864-1975
Email: david.d.north@nasa.gov

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 4044 From: Joe Faust Date: 8/26/2011
Subject: Re: Irregularity and perhaps not so good output in crosswind motion

, and cross-country crosswind shuttling,

-------------------------

Responsive brief sketch of a CCCWS by JpF, Aug. 26, 2011: