Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                       AWES27755to27806
Page 5 of 9.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27755 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: ShaderOne plan

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27756 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: AWES plans TITLES

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27757 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: Stability of a Magnus effect balloon inflated with air flying li

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27758 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: BarM1 plan

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27759 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: AWES plans TITLES

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27760 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: Stability of a Magnus effect balloon inflated with air flying li

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27761 From: Santos Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: Moderator note

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27762 From: Santos Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: SUPERTURBINE®

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27763 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: ExerKite plan

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27764 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: AWES plans TITLES

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27765 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: ExerKite plan

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27766 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: KiteTentMark001 plan

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27767 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: AWES plans TITLES

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27768 From: tallakt Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: Stability of a Magnus effect balloon inflated with air flying li

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27770 From: dougselsam Date: 7/20/2019
Subject: Re: SUPERTURBINE®

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27771 From: dougselsam Date: 7/20/2019
Subject: Re: Moderator note

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27773 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/20/2019
Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27774 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/20/2019
Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27775 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/20/2019
Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27776 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/20/2019
Subject: Re: Stability of a Magnus effect balloon inflated with air flying li

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27777 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/20/2019
Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27778 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/20/2019
Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27779 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/20/2019
Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27780 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/20/2019
Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27781 From: Santos Date: 7/20/2019
Subject: Re: Moderator note

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27782 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/20/2019
Subject: Re: Jibobo

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27783 From: Santos Date: 7/20/2019
Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27784 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/20/2019
Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27785 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/20/2019
Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27786 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/20/2019
Subject: Re: Jibobo

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27787 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/20/2019
Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27788 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/20/2019
Subject: Re: Jibobo

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27789 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/20/2019
Subject: Re: Jibobo

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27790 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/20/2019
Subject: Re: Jibobo

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27791 From: Santos Date: 7/20/2019
Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27792 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/20/2019
Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27793 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/20/2019
Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27794 From: tallakt Date: 7/21/2019
Subject: Re: Stability of a Magnus effect balloon inflated with air flying li

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27795 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/21/2019
Subject: US4452007.pdf

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27796 From: Santos Date: 7/21/2019
Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27797 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/21/2019
Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27798 From: dougselsam Date: 7/21/2019
Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27799 From: dougselsam Date: 7/21/2019
Subject: Stealing picnic baskets in Jellystone Park

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27800 From: dougselsam Date: 7/21/2019
Subject: Fake UFO invasion

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27801 From: Santos Date: 7/21/2019
Subject: Re: Fake UFO invasion

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27802 From: dougselsam Date: 7/21/2019
Subject: Re: Fake UFO invasion

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27803 From: Santos Date: 7/21/2019
Subject: Re: Stealing picnic baskets in Jellystone Park

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27804 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/21/2019
Subject: Re: Stability of a Magnus effect balloon inflated with air flying li

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27805 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/21/2019
Subject: Re: The winning AWE method(s)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27806 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/21/2019
Subject: Re: Stability of a Magnus effect balloon inflated with air flying li




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27755 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: ShaderOne plan
ShaderOne plan

ShaderOne  is an AWES. Its plan will blossom in this topic thread.  Its title will be listed as a linked title in the Message 27718 top thread

Scale: handy for one person to operate.
Good purpose:  provide shade for a working, playing, or resting person. 
Rights: given to public domain.Rights given over from KiteLab, Los Angeles, California

... more details in good time. 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27756 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: AWES plans TITLES
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27757 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: Stability of a Magnus effect balloon inflated with air flying li
Attachments :

    Hi PierreB,

    My experience is limited to flying a Sharp Rotor kite. Besides end discs, it required a very large central disc to make it reasonably stable. Many toy rotary kites do the same thing. So a heavier than air Magnus cylinder would presumably need the same kind of stabilizer.

    However, there are additional ways to stabilize a rotary kite, and they have not all been explored. For a Magnus cylinder, pendulum stability could be achieved by mounting the motor well below the cylinder and then connecting them with a thin belt or rope drive. Another approach is to use 2 cylinders end to end and at a vertical angle to each other to create dihedral (which is used by airplanes to prevent side-slip. Or a single cylinder might be contracted to be slimmer in the middle; that could work because the lift from the top is larger than the lift from the bottom, so it is the equivalent of using dihedral.

    But the form of stability depends upon what you want to do with the kite in terms of maneuvering it.

    Another approach is to use two cylinders end to end, each with its own small motor. Then increase or decrease the lift separately to keep the overall kite stable and to maneuver it. That might be done automatically using some sort of level or gyroscope inside of the kite.

    End discs don’t have to be solid and heavy. They could be fabric discs stiffened by a light hoop. Or, the discs could be stiffened by centrifugal force by sewing a light chain inside of the circumference of the fabric disc.

    Just a reminder: If an air inflated balloon is black, it can absorb heat from the sun and expand its internal air so as to make it lighter than air. No helium required. Here is an interesting fact to put in the back of your mind:

    If the rotating cylinder is made buoyant by solar heating, it will retain its heat unusually well. That is because its rotation produces a centrifugal force on its internal air. That causes the colder air, which is heavier, to be forced toward the circumference of the cylinder, while the hotter air, which is lighter, is forced  to the middle of the cylinder. So if the ends of the cylinder have some foam insulation, the solar cylinder should hold its heat rather well and continue to be buoyant longer than expected as the sun goes down. It would help if the heat from the spin motor were kept inside of the kite. In theory at least, it might be possible to build a solar heated cylinder kite that stayed buoyant all night long. At night, some heat usually radiates from the surface of the ground.

    PeterS

     

    From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
    Sent: Friday, July 19, 2019 12:35 PM
    To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: [AWES] Stability of a Magnus effect balloon inflated with air flying like a kite

     

     

    Hi PeterS,

     

    I remember some discussion about Magnus effect balloon inflated with air. If I recall well you indicated me that Omnidea's balloon (which has no endplate or central disk) stability is because it is inflated with helium, precising that a Magnus kite should have a central large disk for its stability. Is it the same (probably yes but...) for a cylindrical air-inflated balloon, at any scale, at any aspect ratio? 

     

    I attach a photo of a 6 m x 1 m balloon, in order to show it looks easy to make, and at any scale, apart other concerns like the motor onboard and the required disk(s) for its stability.

    A balloon without disks like helium-inflated Omnidea's balloon looks easier to maneuver. If the lack of disk leads to a lesser efficiency, this is not so important because a larger cylindrical balloon is easy to build. But if the lack of disk leads to a lack of stability, it is another story. And I want a balloon with only air, no helium.

    Please what are your observations?

     

    PierreB 

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27758 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/19/2019
    Subject: BarM1 plan
    BarM1 plan
     
    A plan for BarM1, an AWES, will blossom in this topic thread.  The linked title for this energy kite system will be posted in the title collector topic thread Message 27718 of this forum.

    Scale: handy for one person to operate. 
    Good work:  provide a barrier for hurdlers, high jumpers, tumblers, and the like. 
    Rights: public domain gifted by KiteLab, Los Angeles, California.  

    Further plan details for BarM1 will be forthcoming. 

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27759 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/19/2019
    Subject: Re: AWES plans TITLES
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27760 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/19/2019
    Subject: Re: Stability of a Magnus effect balloon inflated with air flying li
    Hi PeterS,

    Thanks for these explains.
    I tested solar balloons for jump, using kinetic energy of the air mass in the balloon (https://forum.awesystems.info/t/solar-balloon-jumping/136). But to work 24 h/24 the balloon should be open at the base to receive ground radiations, like some versions of http://hibiscus.projet.latmos.ipsl.fr/projet/HIBISCUS/en/many/mir.html, making difficult or impossible the rotation for the Magnus effect.

    For the stability I think the balloon in rotation could be stabilized by its own air mass in rotation with the balloon as it scales up.

    Concerning maneuvers, I expect the minimum but not more: so stationary position, or reeling like Omnidea, but not crosswind as that becomes too complex and not appropriate (imho).

    PierreB 
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27761 From: Santos Date: 7/19/2019
    Subject: Re: Moderator note
    Doug, the power kite is a viable AWE means. I am not the only one who has progressed with it. Watch the videos for hope in AWE.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27762 From: Santos Date: 7/19/2019
    Subject: Re: SUPERTURBINE®
    Gordon, a problem with ST universal joints is how to then hold the rotors in proper orientation.

    Doug is left "bemoaning" how hard refining the ST is. Far easier to not to even try. That's his latest post in summary.

    Let someone someday finally show practical working limits of ST refinement by added cost and complexity. Doug is not focused on being that developer.

    His remaining role is to question all other AWE methods and progress.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27763 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/19/2019
    Subject: ExerKite plan
    ExerKite plan
        This topic will be dedicated to blossoming a plan for ExerKite, an AWES.    

    See topic started at Message 27718 for some procedural guidelines 

    Scale: handy for one person
    Good:  exercise for a human
    Rights: KiteLab, Los Angeles, California, places the ExerKite into public domain. 

    More plan details will be forthcoming.


    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27764 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/19/2019
    Subject: Re: AWES plans TITLES
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27765 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/19/2019
    Subject: Re: ExerKite plan
    Disclaimer: User of ExerKite takes 100% responsibility for any incidents that occur using ExerKite.

    Some cautions: 
    • Never wrap a  line of ExerKite around a body part during exercise. 
    • Follow standard kiting safety rules and guides. 
    • Supervise use by other people. 
    • Ever install the kite-stop auxiliary line which is part of the ExerKite plan. This respects a cure for any possible breakaway of the wing or main tether. 


    Exercises that may be done by a human using ExerKite are many. An incomplete list of exercises will be described in this topic thread.  Many exercises will be illustrated by drawings and photographs.  Teasing input now is not complete.  
    • Vertical leaps
    • Walk downs
    • Run downs
    • Sit-ups
    • Pulls with arms
    • Pulls with legs
    • Punching
    • High kicks




    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27766 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/19/2019
    Subject: KiteTentMark001 plan
    KiteTentMark001
    This topic thread will ultimately show full details for KiteTentMark001.  

    Goods deliverable by this AWES: 
    • Shade from sun
    • Block wind
    • Provide privacy space
    Rights: Public domain given by KiteLab, Los Angeles, California.
    Scale: handy for one person to operate. 

    Further details will be in the series of posts in this topic thread. 

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27767 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/19/2019
    Subject: Re: AWES plans TITLES
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27768 From: tallakt Date: 7/19/2019
    Subject: Re: Stability of a Magnus effect balloon inflated with air flying li
    I believe dihedral will not work for magnus effect. Because lift does not change with AoA rather just rotational speed. Even so, I gather the dihedral effect is possible using a swept wing
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27770 From: dougselsam Date: 7/20/2019
    Subject: Re: SUPERTURBINE®
    daveS I know it's hard for someone with unlimited time on their hands and yet no goals to apply it to, to understand that people have obligations and projects besides pleasing certain do-nothing people on the internet.  It is very frustrating for me to have become involved with projects that take more of my time than hoped for, and nothing I'd like more than to be able to get back to full-time wind.  As it is, even dealings centering around our latest offshore wind energy patents are taking up valuable time.  Meanwhile here we are in a fully-equipped facility with plenty of open space in a high wind zone - very frustrating, but I hope to get past it soon.  Thank you.


    ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27771 From: dougselsam Date: 7/20/2019
    Subject: Re: Moderator note
    Dear daveS:  You and Joe seem to be stuck in time, unable to distinguish between already WAS, and what is needed, or what is hoped for.
    What WAS, was power-kites.  Nothing new.  That was a given, 12 years ago and counting.
    What was needed was A WAY to use them to generate electricity.
    How to harness that power!
    YOU claimed to have been some version of the top AWE researcher for over a decade now,
    BUT (and here's the "big BUTT")
    You have not introduced ANY such solution.
    You seem to be stuck in 2008, where the possibilities of kites were beginning to be generally recognized,
    BUT
    you haven't done anything about it.
    Hey daveS, what year is it? How 'bout that "AWE-powered concert"!?!?
    What are you going to use for a sound system, a crystal radio set with an earpiece?
    I mean, with no power, your options are limited...
    power-kite - sounds impressive.  But mere cheering of the word "power-kites" means no progress for 12 years - power kites were already available then.  You are standing still.  Frozen in time.
    ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27773 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/20/2019
    Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)
    Joe wrote: "Inspired by PierreB's  note" on https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AirborneWindEnergy/conversations/topics/27718 : 

    AWES plans TITLES.

     
    Please Joe can you precise what note it is? Is it the note above: 
    Only one detailed example will be enough for me."?

    If yes, I would think my note is the opposite of the aim of "AWES plans TITLES" which seems to be an enumeration of titles, sometimes with plans, but without a detailed example of a workable AWE, for example comprising the mode of conversion of wind energy to electricity generation.

    Do you intend to elaborate an enumeration of funny AWES with funny titles?

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27774 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/20/2019
    Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)
    PierreB, 

    1. Trade names and titles are handles for objects that may be made or made and sold.   Generic titles are sometimes wanted, but majorly for trade unique names are wanted by some people. Aim is to distinguish a object from other objects in trade or production or use. 

    2. All in the world are invited to give plans for AWES and post such in this forum. Their plan is invited to have a unique (within AWE) name to distinguish a plan among others. 
     
    3. You are invited to publish one or more plans for one or more AWES.  

    4. The title or name or trade name topic thread will act as a table of contents for AWES plans shared by anyone in this forum.  Plan owners might put circle R, if valid, or TM if they retain intent for trademark. Most my plans will be given over to Public Domain, so I do not put TM for the plan.  If a plan is not put into Public Domain then the words and images created for a plan are copyrighted by the owner author, even if the concepts involved might not be patentable. 

    5. The general thrust of what I felt upon your push was the inspiration to start serving others with a space to share plans for AWES, not any phrase of yours.    

    6. Plans will grow at the rate that the owner of each wishes; the plans might be completely reveal in one post or in many more posts; hence, a topic thread may be formed for each plan for the owner to reveal a plan as comprehensively as they might.    

    7. I intend to show full specification of the AWES that I publish in the forum.  Notice that the owner of each plan topic thread has room to post again and again to expose details of their plans in steps as they wish.   Obviously my plans so far titled and started are yet incomplete; the aim is completeness that will permit builders around the world to duplicate the AWES. 

    8. Notice that of my start of reveal there is MirRib and also MirRibE. The first has primary significance for good work, not in electricity production, whereas the second has significant electricity production.   AWES have sometimes multiple goods served, e.g. cut marble slab and generate electricity for lighting and sharing with local grids, etc. 

    9. An alphabetical list of plans in this system will be at  Plans for AWES    http://www.energykitesystems.net/PLANSforAWES/index.html

    10. All types and sizes of AWES are welcome to be presented by authors.  Some may seem funny to some people; some will seem to be mega-grand super-sized.   Practical good is a target of AWES; if a practical good may be served by an energy kite system or other airborne wind energy device, then someone might have a plan for publishing to share with others.  My hope is that people will publish their AWES plans in our forum or elsewhere.  RAD here is the aim.   Getting plans as options for builders just might advance RAD in the world. Participate as you might. 

    11. The aim is that there will be hundreds or thousands of AWES plans in the system being birthed in our forum. 

    12. I will publish KiteLab, Los Angeles, California, AWES plans.   I will publish as many plans as time permits; and they will be as complete as I have time to reveal.  My plans aim to let replication occur. Enhancement of plans will be posted to anchor the plans. 

    13. Notice that a "scale" may be defined by plan owners. Also, they might make notes as to scaling up to versions of their first object.   However, specifications for a version probably will need specifications to fit the new scaled device; that is, the device/object at a different scale become an object needed new specifications. E.g., MirRibE is described as handy scale for one person; a product of different scale that is not handy by one person would call for a different plan as parts and forces and arrangements for new scale would differ.  So, anticipate that someone might publish a plan for, say,  MirRibE2MW for a 2 MW device that seems to be a cousin to MirRibE.   A new author or same author need not use the root name; they would be free to create their own trade name for the 2 MW device.   

    14.  Owners of plans may give names as they wish; the hope is that they will not use a trade name that is already extant in our industry, as that would be confusing and not fun and maybe not fair trade.   Pick UNIQUE NAMES for your products. Distinguish your machine from other machines. 

    15. Pierre, the aim is that you will be getting very many detailed plans from me and others. The synergy of the forum sparks new efforts to fulfill RAD.    Plans for AWES has been sparked from our discussions and work. 

    17. So, the steps:
    A. Start a topic using the trade name or title of an AWES plan.  State intention in first post.  Press "Send".  
    B. Wait to see the fact that that post has occurred.  
    C. Copy carefully the URL of that post that begin one's AWES plan reveal. 
    D. Then go to Message 27718.   Press Reply. Get an edit form for a new message. 
    E. Type only the trade name or exact title of your plan.   
    F.  Make that title into a link by using the hyperlinking or linking tool. 
    G. Please erase the tail of former message, else moderator will have to redo the post. 
    H. Then press Send.       You will thus have formed part of the table of contents for plans    The moderator will edit and advance external file at Plans for AWES   to hold the new plan title. 
    I.  Then as time permits advance as owner the topic thread that you started in step A.  Over time reveal the plan intended to the specificity intended.  Some plans will be depending more or less on the skills of "those skilled in the arts".   Some plans by some owners will be too laconic for some readers; readers may post polite requests for more details on some aspect of a plan.     Notice that the game allows the owner of a plan to get deleted posts that seem to the owner not fitting to the plans composition tenor; the owner may request of the moderator of the forum that certain posts in their plan topic be deleted; the owner might ask a poster to delete the post; such would save moderator time.   Any member may delete their own posts anywhere in the forum. 

    So, when any member who wants to share a plan for an AWES, they may follow the above and get the space and extension afforded by our forum and partner EnergyKiteSystems.  May small and large and tiny and huge AWES become part of Earth and beyond. Plans might help RAD, the purpose of this forum.


    ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <pierre-benhaiem@orange.fr
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27775 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/20/2019
    Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)
    JoeF,

    You  wrote: "Inspired by PierreB's  note" on https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AirborneWindEnergy/conversations/topics/27718 : 

    AWES plans TITLES.

     
    Please can you precise what note it is and quote it? Thanks.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27776 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/20/2019
    Subject: Re: Stability of a Magnus effect balloon inflated with air flying li
    Attachments :

      Hi Tallak,

      Dihedral is used to prevent sideslip. The direction of the relative wind changes during sideslip. The relative wind shifts toward the side of the sideslip. It changes differently for the two sides of a wing with dihedral since the two sides are at a different angle to the relative wind. So it doesn’t matter if the wings are conventional or rotating cylinders. Dihedral works for both to prevent sideslip.

      I demonstrated that back in the 1970’s with a free-flying, gliding toy that auto-rotated. It rotated on its span-wise axis like a Magnus effect cylinder. It also had dihedral. The dihedral increased its stability noticeably. It was thicker at the ends than in the middle, which gave the top positive dihedral and gave the bottom negative dihedral. Since the top produces more lift than the bottom, the result was increased stability. I tested it against rotary wings with the same average thickness so as to rule out the effect of pendulum stability.

      See https://patents.google.com/patent/US4051622A/en?q=Peter&q=A.&q=Sharp&q=flying+toy&oq=Peter+A.+Sharp+flying+toy 

      Magnus effect cylinders can be constructed with dihedral by joining two paper cups bottom-to-bottom, and then adding end discs. The dihedral will improve their stability as compared to a constant-diameter cylinder with end discs.

      So using two cylinders mounted at an angle to create dihedral, should produce increased stability. The increase should be larger than for a single cylinder that has dihedral. If you doubt that, you might wish to test it to find out.

      Actually, the test has already been done. There is a toy, red, plastic airplane kite that uses spinning S rotors for the wings. They are given dihedral to increase the stability of the kite. The spinning S rotors are similar enough to spinning cylinders to draw a conclusion. The conclusion is that Magnus effect wings with dihedral will increase stability.

      If you believe that that evidence is not convincing, I encourage you to demonstrate that the conclusion is false.

      PeterS

       

      From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Friday, July 19, 2019 11:13 PM
      To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [AWES] Stability of a Magnus effect balloon inflated with air flying like a kite

       

       

      I believe dihedral will not work for magnus effect. Because lift does not change with AoA rather just rotational speed. Even so, I gather the dihedral effect is possible using a swept wing

      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27777 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/20/2019
      Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)
      Pierre B.  requested in a note: "describe your airborne wind energy system plan"
      I've been describing my AWESs for decades, but Pierre's phrase inspired me to construct a new avenue for others and myself to describe our airborne wind energy system plans.   See Message 27718 and related following notes in Message 27774 if you, Reader, want to share your AWES plan in our forum and in EnergyKiteSystems.net  


      ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <pierre-benhaiem@orange.fr
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27778 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/20/2019
      Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)
      JoeF,


      I asked a simple question for a simple answer.

      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27779 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/20/2019
      Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)
      Not all simple questions have simple answers.
      Thanks for the question, Pierre. Glad you seem satisfied with answer and help with the answer. 
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27780 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/20/2019
      Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)
      Joe,

      I don’t think anyone (apart from DaveS, of course because all "titles" or "plans" you propose come from KiteLab) would be satisfied with your non-response, with your endless enumerations, with your instructions in an unnecessarily complicated bureaucratic style, all this for an empty and non-detailed content and for poor aims. 
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27781 From: Santos Date: 7/20/2019
      Subject: Re: Moderator note
      Doug, the power kite is not stuck in limbo like the ST. It's a hot item, even hotter since the 2005 Kitesurfing History you cannot watch, that proves the revolution is on.

      Reread ongoing kPower demo reports of better AWES rig designs working in public. Similarly, AWEfest efforts continue whenever kitepower and public celebration comes together.

      Great progress will continue. 2030 is looking better by every sign. Sorry if your own work does not keep up with the power kite.

      Your pessimistic despair will end if you start flying power kites to harness them. Watch the Kitesurfing history to see real wind power progress.

      Don't end stuck complaining rather than inventing. Get Stoked. Join the party.
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27782 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/20/2019
      Subject: Re: Jibobo
      Furthering the plan for the AWES called Jibobo

      History of the name choice: 
      My mother birthed 8 children; the child born in order before me was stillborn; later in life I named my brother "Jibobo." Now I get to name an AWES after him. I guess mom nursed me the longest of all my siblings because of the stillborn event; I was fifth in order; all my siblings have passed from Earth. 

      The AWES Jibobo is not my invention; and there might not be any provable inventor.  However, within the various  Skybow notes on the Internet was a note about galloping ribbon arch kite. My explorations of the galloping of ribbon arch kites that rotate brought to this point.   I will specify carefully a particular rotating ribbon arch kite that serves some practical goods. 

      Here are some of the identifiable practical goods deliverable from flying Jibobo:
      1. Gathers people around a dynamic uncommonly seen machine. Educational questions and answers about AWE may occur. "Could something like this have practical uses?"  "Could a mod of Jibobo generate electricity?" "Could the concept of Jibobo be scaled up?"  "What are the failure modes and rates of Jibobo? And could time between failures be mitigated and how?"  "How is Jibobo a kite if it flies up and down and around?" "Why does Jibobo gallop?"  "How is Jibobo an airborne wind energy machine (AWES)?"  And more. Part of this practical good could be bringing the public to think about AWE. 

      2. When flown by two people, then some bonding may grow between the two people; one person holds one end of Jibobo; the other person holds the other end.  During the flight, talk may occur about energy kite systems and other AWES.  Jibobo invites experimentation with installed twists, length, tension, and obliqueness to the ambient wind. The experimentation may have the practical good of inspiring experimentation with aerodynamics. Two-by-two could involve a class of 30 students with 15 Jibobos operating; then with alternate materials the students could experiment over first-given Jibobo specifications; cousins to Jibobo could be explored by the students.  

      3. Using a series of poles with Jibobos configured between each two poles, an attractive dynamic results that could be part of celebration or event scenes. 

      4. Provide sound during a picnic or other event. 


      Scale of Jibobo:  Toy-AWE, handy, pocketable,
      Rights of use:  Jibobo is in Public Domain by concept; the plan herein is placed in public domain; the name is placed into public domain.  Anyone mayy commercialize Jibobo as herein specified or modifiy all and do the same. 

      Specification to build Jibobo: 
      1. Obtain an old or discarded 1/4" sound recording tape. 
      2. Cut 10 ft. from the reel of tape. 
      Done for the build, but to get Jibobo to fly in a gallop, there is important further specification. 
      Anchor one end of Jibobo, perhaps to a pole at 5 ft off the ground using tape or a knotting. 
      Anchor the other end of Jibobo after twisting Jibobo 20 turns. The second anchor could be a pilot's hand or a pole.  Have the imaginary line of sight between the two anchors be perpendicular to the ambient breeze. 
      Observe the flight dynamics. Welcome Jibobo into your life. 

      Then alter the flight of Jibobo by having only 10 twists in the wing. Observe and enjoy.  Then 30 twists in Jibobo's wing.   Etc.  Change number of twists and record what is observed of Jibobo's dynamics. Watch for changes in Jibobo's wing. Change the distance between anchors to change the tension in Jibobo's wing. Watch for failure to maintain galloping. Watch for "stringing" in the regions of the wing near the anchors.  Watch for failures.  Wonder how cousins to Jibobo might be made and flown.  Hear the sounds that Jibobo makes.  Wonder how much heat is being made during the flight of Jibobo.  Wonder how much electricity is being made during Jibobo's flights. 


      Furthering the Jibobo plan will occur in later posts in this dedicated Jibobo plan topic thread. 
      Videos from KiteLab, Los Angeles, and photos and drawings will be part of this plan's reveal. 
      All others are invited to post their Jibobo experiences within this topic thread; use words, drawings, videos, pertinent links, etc.  Off-topic posts will probably be deleted, but contents will be saved.  Advance AWE by Jibobo as one might. Suggest or show cousins to Jibobo at any scale. Increase the the electricity generation in cousins to Jibobo, perhaps.   Help analyze the physics involved in Jibobo. Explore longitudinal waves. Change the length from 10 ft to shorter or longer and observe the changes in dynamics; explore until you get to see interesting longitudinal waves.   Wonder how the up-and-down may be a PTO; wonder how the rotation and reversal of rotation may have some method for PTO; wonder how the "stringing" from rotation will lead to structural failure.  Wonder how the exercise with Jibobo could form templates for exploring other AWES constructions.      

      ____________________________________________________________________
      ================================================
      General forum footnote about publishing plans in our forum and in EnergyKiteSystems.net follows:
      ================================================
      Reader, if new to this avenue for AWES plans: 
       See Message 27718 and related following notes in Message 27774 if you, Reader, want to share your AWES plan in our forum and in EnergyKiteSystems.net  
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27783 From: Santos Date: 7/20/2019
      Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)
      Pierre, allow fair time for JoeF's new efforts to blossom. His past efforts have been unmatched. I would not know nearly as much about kites. JoeF is the greatest teacher we have.

      I am confident each seed will grow, but not personally satisfied until AWE meets the world's needs.

      Nobody should be satisfied with your own AWE effort. Do not give up. JoeF & I have never been more hopefull. Progress has been fantastic.

       We take you seriously that you do not understand how AWE can be done or defined better. Count on us to keep trying cheerfully, full of hope.
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27784 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/20/2019
      Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)
      Dave,

      You wrote: "We take you seriously that you do not understand how AWE can be done or defined better."

      I reply: I don't take seriously that you understand how AWE can be done or defined better.
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27785 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/20/2019
      Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)
      Dave,

      You wrote: "We take you seriously that you do not understand how AWE can be done or defined better."

      I reply: I don't take seriously that you pretend understand how AWE can be done or defined better.

      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27786 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/20/2019
      Subject: Re: Jibobo
      Notice
      1. That Jibobo is not Skybow. Skybow stays in up-flying position in arch. Jibobo dynamic flies up to a limit and then reverses to fly down to a limit arch, and then cycles up to an up arch limit, and then flies down again to a lower arch limit.  So, the two AWES are quite different, yet share some characteristics. 

      2. That Jibobo and some of its cousins might contends for being the lowest cost-to-build and fly AWES; time will tell about this matter. 

      3. That in the up flight Jibobo is axially rotating one way while in the up flight Jibobo is rotating axially the opposite way. During the flight up to the upper arch limit station,   

      4. To convert Jibobo to a Skybow, adequate swivels would be needed at the two anchors of the wing body (tape or ribbon body) to disallow the "stringing" that occurs near the anchors for Jibobo and its cousins. At the tiny scale, some strong effort may be need to come up with the swivels which would be needed for the specified Jibobo. 

      5. As specified, measuring the amount of electricity generated by interacting with the wind would need expensive instruments, I guess, as not much is made!    

      6. The potential contribution to AWE by Jibobo is multifaceted. 

      7. During prototyping toward the Skybow came an experience that rooted the essence of non-swiveled reversing-rotating arching ribbon wings ---- cousins to Jibobo. Read in the just shown link for much more on Skybow roots.   The seed of Jibobo for me: "Ultimately, with a lot of twist in the ribbon, it reaches a point where it spins smoothly, and then reverses, alternately flying up and then down, and making a "whomp" sound each time it changes direction."


      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27787 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/20/2019
      Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)
      Now, now.  DaveS is not pretending.   He has integrity in his research and development. No pretense, Pierre.  You have no proof of the "pretend" aspect.  Consider technically facing whatever statements someone makes without getting into their core of whether or not they are pretending or not.    What any of us understand cannot be fully known by another, I contend; we are just too complex and unique to be fully known by another.   What we have is our statements and products.   Please veer away from hitting at persons; may we stay on technical topic and arguments on the technical point.  

      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27788 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/20/2019
      Subject: Re: Jibobo
      Yahoo knocked out the intended link that I had composed for text phrase: 
      So, to reach the intended page, consider trying 
      James Mallos  Weave Anything Skybow   in Google Search without quotation marks. 
      Or copy/paste the following string:

      ====================================

       

      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27789 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/20/2019
      Subject: Re: Jibobo
      A core paragraph about the early cousin to Jibobo by James Mallos from his site:

      A taut ribbon will not spin stably by itself—it will typically either turn wide-side to the wind, and not spin at all, or go through wild oscillations of spin and translation. But if twisted up enough, it will indeed spin stably. A demonstrator of this is what Tony and I called a wind-womp. Terminate both ends of a 24 yard section of 3/8" corrugated plastic ribbon with 4 feet of light kite string. Hold the resulting assembly across the wind while twisting up the string at one end with a cordless drill (no swivels being used at either end.) As the increasing twist is shared with the ribbon, you will see its behavior in the wind gradually improve. Ultimately, with a lot of twist in the ribbon, it reaches a point where it spins smoothly, and then reverses, alternately flying up and then down, and making a "whomp" sound each time it changes direction."  


        
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27790 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/20/2019
      Subject: Re: Jibobo
      An earlier cousin to Jibobo shows itself in the paragraph at James Mallos site: 

      "A taut ribbon will not spin stably by itself—it will typically either turn wide-side to the wind, and not spin at all, or go through wild oscillations of spin and translation. But if twisted up enough, it will indeed spin stably. A demonstrator of this is what Tony and I called a wind-womp. Terminate both ends of a 24 yard section of 3/8" corrugated plastic ribbon with 4 feet of light kite string. Hold the resulting assembly across the wind while twisting up the string at one end with a cordless drill (no swivels being used at either end.) As the increasing twist is shared with the ribbon, you will see its behavior in the wind gradually improve. Ultimately, with a lot of twist in the ribbon, it reaches a point where it spins smoothly, and then reverses, alternately flying up and then down, and making a "whomp" sound each time it changes direction."
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27791 From: Santos Date: 7/20/2019
      Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)
      Pierre, at least know our excitement is real to us. We believe in you, if you try.

      You are not confident like us. The airborne revolution is on. 2030 is going to be amazing, but still just a start.

      To us, civilization is clearly taking wing, and we not mind the journey.
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27792 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/20/2019
      Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)
      JoeF and DaveS,

      Now, no.  DaveS wrote: "...you do not understand how AWE can be done or defined better. ".  I have integrity in my research and development. You (DaveS or JoeF) have no proof of  "I do not understand" aspect.  Consider technically facing whatever statements someone makes without getting into their core of whether or not they are understanding or not.    What any of us understand cannot be fully known by another, I contend; we are just too complex and unique to be fully known by another.   What we have is our statements and products.   Please veer away from hitting at persons; may we stay on technical topic and arguments on the technical point.  



      ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <joefaust333@...
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27793 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/20/2019
      Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)
      DaveS, JoeF,

      Now, no.  I am confident.   I have the integrity in my research and development. You have no proof that I am "not confident".  Consider technically facing whatever statements someone makes without getting into their core of whether or not they are confident or not.    What any of us are ou are not confident cannot be fully known by another, I contend; we are just too complex and unique to be fully known by another.   What we have is our statements and products.   Please veer away from hitting at persons; may we stay on technical topic and arguments on the technical point.  
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27794 From: tallakt Date: 7/21/2019
      Subject: Re: Stability of a Magnus effect balloon inflated with air flying li
      The tapered radius is something I had bot thought of, i was thinking more traditional dihedral with two separate rotating axes with a dihedral angle at the center of the wing.

      What you describe in the patent looks very convincing even though I am not able to viaualize right now why it works.

      I am also quite intrieged by your toy. Is it available for purchase? Is there a video to show how it works?
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27795 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/21/2019
      Subject: US4452007.pdf
      Attachments :
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27796 From: Santos Date: 7/21/2019
        Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)
        JoeF and I are confident that AWE is progressing wonderfully toward success at many scales for many uses.

        Pierre and Doug do not seem confident, but full of doubt and despair. Let them show their confidence in AWE progress.


        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27797 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/21/2019
        Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)
        DaveS and JoeF,

        I am confident. I have the integrity in my research and development. You have no proof that I am "not confident".  Consider technically facing whatever statements someone makes without getting into their core of whether or not they are confident or not. What any of us are ou are not confident cannot be fully known by another, I contend; we are just too complex and unique to be fully known by another.   What we have is our statements and products.   Please veer away from hitting at persons; may we stay on technical topic and arguments on the technical point. 
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27798 From: dougselsam Date: 7/21/2019
        Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)
        It's becoming increasingly-well-known that there is a certain flavor of people who persistently try to verbally project their own faults and failings onto others.  If you had any self-awareness you would be full of your stated "doubt and despair", from making no progress.  But because you are delusional, you are not even aware you have wasted 12 years accomplishing exactly nothing.  For you, zero (0) progress is a minor, insignificant detail, easily glossed-over, rather than the giant, stomping elephant in your room. Well you know what they say, "ignorance is bliss".  Dream on...


        ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27799 From: dougselsam Date: 7/21/2019
        Subject: Stealing picnic baskets in Jellystone Park
        A power-winch with grappling hook and remote controls suspended from a kite could be used in Jellystone Park by Yogi Bear and Boo-boo, to steal peoples' picnic baskets, wallets, cel-phones, jewelry, freshly-baked pies, etc.


        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27800 From: dougselsam Date: 7/21/2019
        Subject: Fake UFO invasion
        Kites with lights could be used to stage a fake UFO invasion, with aliens demanding the president officially declare "everything is a kite", or the Earth will be destroyed.


        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27801 From: Santos Date: 7/21/2019
        Subject: Re: Fake UFO invasion
        Kites can in fact do UFO dramatizations in public, and could save the world as AWE.

        Doug is fairly correct about what cool things exceptional kite skills can accomplish.
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27802 From: dougselsam Date: 7/21/2019
        Subject: Re: Fake UFO invasion
        I feel more secure now that the great genius daveS has officially declared I am "correct".
        Well at least "fairly" correct.  At least for the moment...
        Because nobody can be SURE if they are "correct", until confirmed by the world's greatest mind, daveS...


        ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27803 From: Santos Date: 7/21/2019
        Subject: Re: Stealing picnic baskets in Jellystone Park
        Finally, Doug is honoring kite imagination rather than pissing on it. This is progress, a natural step toward joining those developing novel practical uses of kites.

        Traditional kite uses are numerous and varied. Many new kite ideas await inventive effort.
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27804 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/21/2019
        Subject: Re: Stability of a Magnus effect balloon inflated with air flying li
        Attachments :

          Hi Tallek,

          “..., i was thinking more traditional dihedral with two separate rotating axes with a dihedral angle at the center of the wing.” Yes, I realize that. Just to be clear, I did address that option in my response to you.

          Thanks for asking about the flying toy. Whamo (hula hoop, etc.) almost produced it but they felt that competitors would sell the Donaldson rotor kite as a free-flight toy, even though it is unstable, to take advantage of Whamo’s publicity for the “Weirdwing” (the name I used for the patented toy). The patent is expired and anyone is free to sell the toy.

          I make mine out of card-stock (business card) paper, and I made one using vacuum forming around a mold, plus internal foam braces. It flew quite well. I’m retired now and have no desire to build another business.

          I will eventually make a video showing how it works. Basically, if you investigate the “Tumblewing”, you can see essentially how it works. It utilizes the Kramer effect for lift, instead of the Magnus effect, when auto-rotating. The difference is that the Weirdwing is more stable and has twice the lift-to-drag ratio as the Tumblewing. It’s fun to throw a Weirdwing underhand, with back spin, by throwing it straight up. It does a forward loop and comes back to you so that you can catch it. The same can be done with a paper Donaldson rotor, but it is a bit more difficult to throw due to its lower stability.

          I have previously discussed the technology on this website, so you might be able to find that previous discussion. That discussion includes the 3-sided Sharp Rotor which may have some potential as a kite.

          PeterS

           

          From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
          Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2019 1:21 AM
          To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [AWES] Stability of a Magnus effect balloon inflated with air flying like a kite

           

           

          The tapered radius is something I had bot thought of, i was thinking more traditional dihedral with two separate rotating axes with a dihedral angle at the center of the wing.

          What you describe in the patent looks very convincing even though I am not able to viaualize right now why it works.

          I am also quite intrieged by your toy. Is it available for purchase? Is there a video to show how it works?

          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27805 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/21/2019
          Subject: Re: The winning AWE method(s)
          I don't forget I will be able to tell you if AWE can apply for large scale electricity generation, and which method(s) will prevail, and that before the end of 2019.



          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27806 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/21/2019
          Subject: Re: Stability of a Magnus effect balloon inflated with air flying li
          Attachments :

            Hi PierreB,

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JzdERxpzes  

            I wonder if a solar balloon skin could be made to act like a one-way mirror (similar to some window coatings) that let infrared radiation to pass through in one direction but not the other. If so, then that combined with “spin-insulation” might be sufficient to keep a solar balloon aloft at night. Very hard to do, but very useful if it could be done.

            How might a spinning balloon stabilize itself due to its internal air mass rotating? Specifically, how will it prevent side-slip?

            PeterS

             

            From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
            Sent: Friday, July 19, 2019 3:18 PM
            To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [AWES] Stability of a Magnus effect balloon inflated with air flying like a kite

             

             

            Hi PeterS,

             

            Thanks for these explains.

            I tested solar balloons for jump, using kinetic energy of the air mass in the balloon (https://forum.awesystems.info/t/solar-balloon-jumping/136). But to work 24 h/24 the balloon should be open at the base to receive ground radiations, like some versions of http://hibiscus.projet.latmos.ipsl.fr/projet/HIBISCUS/en/many/mir.html, making difficult or impossible the rotation for the Magnus effect.

             

            For the stability I think the balloon in rotation could be stabilized by its own air mass in rotation with the balloon as it scales up.

             

            Concerning maneuvers, I expect the minimum but not more: so stationary position, or reeling like Omnidea, but not crosswind as that becomes too complex and not appropriate (imho).

             

            PierreB