Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                                  AWES27700to27754        Some messages were deleted.
Page 4 of 9.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27700 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/18/2019
Subject: Re: The power consumption as the Magnus Effect Balloon or the Sharp

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27701 From: dave santos Date: 7/18/2019
Subject: Re: Definition of AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27702 From: dave santos Date: 7/18/2019
Subject: Re: The power consumption as the Magnus Effect Balloon or the Sharp

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27703 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/18/2019
Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27704 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/18/2019
Subject: Re: The power consumption as the Magnus Effect Balloon or the Sharp

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27705 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/18/2019
Subject: Re: The power consumption as the Magnus Effect Balloon or the Sharp

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27706 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/18/2019
Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27707 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/18/2019
Subject: Re: The power consumption as the Magnus Effect Balloon or the Sharp

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27708 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/18/2019
Subject: Re: The power consumption as the Magnus Effect Balloon or the Sharp

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27709 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: The power consumption as the Magnus Effect Balloon or the Sharp

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27710 From: Santos Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: The power consumption as the Magnus Effect Balloon or the Sharp

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27711 From: Santos Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27712 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27713 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: The power consumption as the Magnus Effect Balloon or the Sharp

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27714 From: Santos Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27715 From: Santos Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: The power consumption as the Magnus Effect Balloon or the Sharp

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27716 From: dougselsam Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: Definition of AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27717 From: Santos Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: Definition of AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27718 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: AWES plans TITLES

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27719 From: gordon_sp Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: SUPERTURBINE®

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27720 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: The power consumption as the Magnus Effect Balloon or the Sharp

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27722 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: "Betz" limit for VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27723 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Jibobo

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27724 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Twister plan

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27727 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Sandy plan

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27728 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: "Betz" limit for VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27730 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: Moderator note

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27732 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Water Dropper plan

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27733 From: dougselsam Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: Moderator note

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27734 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: SubWatt plan

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27735 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: AWES plans TITLES

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27736 From: Santos Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Auto-Zenith

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27737 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: Moderator note

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27738 From: Santos Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: Moderator note

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27739 From: dougselsam Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: SUPERTURBINE®

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27740 From: dougselsam Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: Moderator note

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27741 From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: New file uploaded to AirborneWindEnergy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27742 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: New file uploaded to AirborneWindEnergy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27743 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: New file uploaded to AirborneWindEnergy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27744 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: New file uploaded to AirborneWindEnergy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27745 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: Moderator note

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27746 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: AWES plans TITLES

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27747 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: AWES plans TITLES

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27748 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: AWES plans TITLES

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27749 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: AWES plans TITLES

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27750 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Stability of a Magnus effect balloon inflated with air flying like a

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27751 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: MirRib plan

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27752 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: MirRibE plan

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27753 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: AWES plans TITLES

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27754 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: AWES plans TITLES



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27700 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/18/2019
Subject: Re: The power consumption as the Magnus Effect Balloon or the Sharp
"Pierre. Its the ratio of on-topic to off-topic that counts.. Be sure to add on-topic content, not just complain in vain.
A feeling of provocation is not on-topic. Comment on topic to be "wonderful", then allow yourself comments in new directions."
Comment off-topic as usual. Joe?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27701 From: dave santos Date: 7/18/2019
Subject: Re: Definition of AWE
Pierre, I define AWE better than Doug, including biological and aviation cases, since flight science is not his expertise.

Doug veers off like this here on the Definition of AWE- 

"Today's crackpot vocabulary word of the day: "flippant"
I like that word.  Yes we wind people are VERY "flippant" when we see pretenders pretending to enter our hard-won turf with their empty talk and typical crackpot notions of nothingness inevitably degenerating into name-calling and the blame-game.  We flip them the bird, and in response, they flip out."

If you tolerate that without feeling provocation, learn to tolerate all contributions with similar grace.



 

There is no problem Joe. I opened this subject as you could have. Doug provides on-topic comments, underlining the lack of AWE realization, making difficult the definition of AWE. On the other hand DaveS is off-topic by his statements about "the issue of real wind folks like Vestas", as it is not about AWE but about wind energy.

So please can you ask Dave to form a topic related to wind energy, if it is possible in a AWE forum? Thanks for it.


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <joefaust333@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27702 From: dave santos Date: 7/18/2019
Subject: Re: The power consumption as the Magnus Effect Balloon or the Sharp
Pierre, you do not solve anything by badgering Joe with your own 100% off-topic posts. Show you understand Re discussion, not just feel provoked by "wonderful" encouragement.


Complex Reynolds trade-off between AWES wing size and velocity should inspire wonderful on-topic comment. Feeling sorely provoked to badger JoeF off-topic is wasted effort.

Reynolds number






 

"Pierre. Its the ratio of on-topic to off-topic that counts.. Be sure to add on-topic content, not just complain in vain.

A feeling of provocation is not on-topic. Comment on topic to be "wonderful", then allow yourself comments in new directions."
Comment off-topic as usual. Joe?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27703 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/18/2019
Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)
Pierre, you asked, "In practice?"
Nature including humans found many ways to put such possibilities into practice; and by pattern, it seems that Nature including humans will continue to show further practicing of kite systems; trusting the pattern known, which is short of all that has been, one may anticipate with some confidence that humans will be able to design, build, and use energy kite systems that reflect formers and also kite systems that have yet to be envisioned by humans; good uses of such systems will also most likely continue in past patterns and in ways even yet imagined. 

My personal putting  "K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)"
into practice occurs daily on several fronts deepening a hold over knowns, and advancing to solutions that are new to me and maybe to others. Targets are electricity production as well as many other products. And I stay in pattern of sharing as much of my practice as I have time and space to do so.  One may mull over all my shares of practice to know part of my practice in AWE. 

The whole of each of our AWE practices cannot be shared in text and images; may we each profit from the shared AWE gifts of each other and also benefit from effects of our practices that stay untraceable as AWE blossoms to further advance the common good around Earth and beyond.  

All seems to me to be Gift; following Hargrave somewhat , let contributions be nearly blind gift to all.   K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27704 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/18/2019
Subject: Re: The power consumption as the Magnus Effect Balloon or the Sharp
One may trace some off-topic on most topics. And in ordinary discourse, some off-topic occurs. Some of such also falls into the category of  informality lubrication the tough technical work underway.   Let's keep aiming to stay on topic. Avoidance sensitive matters over person is a continued encourage.   This very note is off-topic but faces a strain occurring in topic.   Thank you, all, for "trying again" on these aspects of discourse. 
========================
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27705 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/18/2019
Subject: Re: The power consumption as the Magnus Effect Balloon or the Sharp
"Pierre, you do not solve anything by badgering Joe with your own 100% off-topic posts. Show you understand Re discussion, not just feel provoked by "wonderful" encouragement.


Complex Reynolds trade-off between AWES wing size and velocity should inspire wonderful on-topic comment. Feeling sorely provoked to badger JoeF off-topic is wasted effort."

Off-topic provocation from DaveS as usual. Joe?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27706 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/18/2019
Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)
So I ask again: in practice? Please can you describe your airborne wind energy system plan? Thanks.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27707 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/18/2019
Subject: Re: The power consumption as the Magnus Effect Balloon or the Sharp
As you indicate Joe "This very note is off-topic ...".
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27708 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/18/2019
Subject: Re: The power consumption as the Magnus Effect Balloon or the Sharp
Joe, 

Telling "Doug, please form a succinct topic for an AWE concern of yours.  Others and myself may post in your topic, if attractive. This present topic is "Definition of AWE". Thank you." like on https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AirborneWindEnergy/conversations/messages/27690 looks to be easy for you.

But telling the similar, like for example "Dave, please form a succinct topic for an AWE concern of yours.  Others and myself may post in your topic, if attractive..." looks to be impossible in spite of numerous off-topic provocations from DaveS. 

Why the double standard?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27709 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: The power consumption as the Magnus Effect Balloon or the Sharp
Hi PeterS,

Thanks for your high level contribution for this topic. I learn from them.
I am sorry for the off-topic and without technical concern discussion since DaveS' interventions.

PierreB



---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <pierre-benhaiem@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27710 From: Santos Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: The power consumption as the Magnus Effect Balloon or the Sharp
Pierre, sorry you feel provoked. It often seems you wish to provoke, and the sensible solution is to get back on topic.

Good luck to anyone who hopes to scale up Magnus or Savonius rotors for AWE. These are not great wings for the purpose.

The Sharp rotor at least does self-start and not need a motor-drive, but that's not enough to beat a power kite by power-to-weight. Not even close.

High or low Re numbers, conventional wings work better, but wing curiosities are worth exploring by those who are not sure.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27711 From: Santos Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)
Pierre, JoeF provided a page link full of real-examples of "practice".

Be kind enough to accept that effort without complaint.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27712 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)
Dave,

Only one detailed example will be enough for me. So I am waiting.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27713 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: The power consumption as the Magnus Effect Balloon or the Sharp
Power-to-space use is the AWE ratio. Power-to-weight is only a ratio among others like power-to-kite area (which is the current ratio), nor more, nor less.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27714 From: Santos Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: K: {W1,T,W2} in media (one or more)
Pierre, you demand here what has already been given. 

Joe has shared what he knows about kites in thousands of instances. One more example will never satisfy you. Let Joe's examples stand as presented for over 50yrs, since KiteSA in the 60s. 

Provide your own wonderful examples, not demand too much of others. Review Joe's archives for what you claim to want. More kite examples there than anywhere in history.

Where is your promised analysis of "winners"? No one is demanding, but you did provoke curiosity. How about a better prediction than 2011? Not likely. That worthy prediction provoked you unreasonably.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27715 From: Santos Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: The power consumption as the Magnus Effect Balloon or the Sharp
The FAA has given us airspace enough to power civilization, and kite pros know best how to pack it densely.

Max power-to-weight is not only the top Aerospace number, but comes with superior airspace efficiency.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27716 From: dougselsam Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: Definition of AWE

It is very simple:  Thousands of people have declared themselves and their ideas "superior" to working wind energy systems.  Usually they espouse one (1) single "breakthrough", and it doesn't take long before it debunks itself by not living up to expectations.  The dreaded power-meter is the standard of whether the new idea is delivering a bang for its buck: Given the resources required, is this "solution" an improvement?

Because the problem is usually that their theory turned out to be wrong, in cases where it is obvious from the beginning their idea is wrong, based on alreaady-well-known factors ignored by the inventors, we call them crackpots.  With daveS and JoeF, we have a whole new dynamic.  It's an orders-of-magnitude more extreme than ever seen example of "The Professor Crackpot Syndrome"
  
Now you have the crackpots (2) not just one, running the discussion!  They don't even HAVE a theory, a principle, or a type of Wind Energy Collection System in mind.  In fact they can't even focus on any single branch of science, engineering, aviation, etc.  Their position is they are experts in EVERYTHING, that they like kites so kites are EVERYTHING, that they are THE "experts" in a new way to do wind energy, yet by the very standards OF wind energy, they have NOTHING.  And they are in denial of even THAT! They abuse language like kids in an alley ripping of tourists using a shell-game,  Instead of shells, they use words, and their tactic is to change word defintions to make whtever they sid that was not true, SEEM true IF you go long with their new definitions.  Besides the word definitions, they have no AWE solutions to offer.

As Pierre did, ask them to see their system, their data - forget any of that, ask them to show you even a PLAN for ANY working system based on ANY of the hundreds of principles they espouse the abandon on a daily basis.  The ONLY thing these guys HAVE is a PRETENSE that THEY control the dictionary, nd spo their ONLY "technology" is their CLAIM to CONTROIL ever-shifting WORD DEFINITIONS.  

Just read the sentence below: "Pierre, I define AWE better than Doug..."   Get it?  "DEFINE".
Remember, "Doug" was the guy who built (in like 2 weeks) and demonstrated (worked the first time) a working AWE system for Popular Science Magazine that then won an Invention of the Year award, BEFORE the first HAWP2009  Conference, BEFORE AWE was even "a thing", and then daveS pretends to OUTDO "Doug" because he supposedly "DEFINES" AWE better than Doug, yet still has nothing even running after twelve (12) years of claiming to be the top AWE expert researcher!  I know it sounds impossible, but it is what it is.

Recently he derided the entire concept of power-meters!  There is nothing in the world of wind energy crackpots that even comes close to what you read here on a daily basis.  Why?  Because he (both of them) has nothing to move the needle.  Simple.  These guys cannot "define" or "redefine" their way out of simple, normal, reality.  They cannot "define" their way to get a needle to move on a volt-meter, an amp-meter, or a power-meter.  But that never seems to stop them, not even slow them down.  Nevertheless, it should be noted, from any normal standard in wind energy, most of what you read here, in this venue, on a daily basis, is complete nonsense.  Someone has to stand up and say it.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

There is no problem Joe. I opened this subject as you could have. Doug provides on-topic comments, underlining the lack of AWE realization, making difficult the definition of AWE. On the other hand DaveS is off-topic by his statements about "the issue of real wind folks like Vestas", as it is not about AWE but about wind energy.

So please can you ask Dave to form a topic related to wind energy, if it is possible in a AWE forum? Thanks for it.


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Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27717 From: Santos Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: Definition of AWE
Doug, if you want to define AWE better, watch the Kitesurfing history, read Loyd, and try a power kite.

JoeF and I are naturally better at defining kite terms than anyone who chooses not to master kite knowledge.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27718 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: AWES plans TITLES

Inspired by PierreB's  note, 

this topic thread invites anyone to post their AWES plan titles only.

Then consider starting a dedicated topic just on each plan.

Please refrain from posting any details in THIS topic. Just titles. Any post in this titles-only topic thread that seems to veer off titles-only post might be deleted with an aside note to the poster to post the content in some other topic thread. 


Have a separate title for each distinct plan. 


Have a separate distinct topic started for each title.    Aim, all, to stay on topic in the separated topics that feature someone's plan.  


MODERATION NOTE:  Special moderation by "owner" of dedicated-plan topic:  The owner of a dedicated-plan topic may request the forum moderator to delete someone's post from the topic thread; the content of the deleted post may be placed in a fully separate topic with the cooperation of the author of the deleted post.  This procedure may help keep someone's plan topic very much on focus on the plan itself. The "owner" of the topic on their plan, as always, have a forum capacity to delete their own posts; such might be done when the "owner" wants absent one or more of their posts as they place some redaction, etc.  We all may delete any post that is under our own identity. 


================================================

"A plan is a detailed proposal for doing or achieving something."  Webster. 

An AWES plan is a detailed proposal for doing or achieving an AWES. 

An AWES is an airborne wind energy system. 

In your title or plan details, it is suggested to set the scene as to the branch or sector of AWE that the AWES might serve; that is, what good practical work category does one's intended AWES aim to achieve. 


In your separated dedicated topic (not in this topic thread of titles only)

consider setting the scene and possibly including some of the following as might fit reveal intentions. 

  • Title
  • Dominant practical good intended should the AWES be used.
  • Identification of scale, size of parts. 
  • Estimate of ground and air or water space or soil space needed for operation of the AWES. 
  • Description of estimate of how complete the plan is. Is there enough detail for faithful duplication by others?  Are their proprietary details left out of the details?
  • Do you hold that there are inventive leaps embodied in the plan? Do you intend file for a patent over some aspect or detail or concept implied by the plan? 
  • Are any rights extended to the public? May individuals build from you plan? Do you place the plan into public domain?  Do you want others to credit you should they build?  Any fees requested for building from your plan? 
  • Estimate of failure modes.
  • Are there engineering drawings available for parts?
  • What is the nature of controls? If avionics are involved, then consider descriptions and program availability. 
  • Line descriptions. 
  • Wing descriptions. 
  • Limits of operation. 
  • Disclaimers?
  • Construction details?
  • Tooling?
  • Inspection points?
  • Testing plans?
  • Certification by third parties?
  • Models?
  • Has a prototype flown? 
  • Is the plan an iteration from an earlier plan?
  • Do you intend building and testing the planned AWES?
    • Do you intend publishing details of incidents affecting public safety from tests?

  • Do you intend selling copies of the plan?
  • Do you intend selling rights to the AWES planned?
  • Do you intend selling whole units of the AWES to others?
  • ... ???
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27719 From: gordon_sp Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: SUPERTURBINE®

Doug,

Instead of bemoaning lack of progress in AWE, why don’t we discuss possible improvements to your Superturbine® concept? I have three improvement suggestions for your Sky Serpent™.

1.    Insertion of double universal joints at each turbine location will enable the orientation of all turbines to directly face the wind direction therefore eliminating cosine cubed losses. The angle of the tether can be increased and enable operation at higher altitudes.  In addition the double universal joints will eliminate bending forces on the shafts between the turbines.  In your design, the combination of bending forces and torque would require much stronger shafts.  In the case of high winds which might cause damage, the turbines can be rotated to the vertical position which will minimize forces.

2.    Transferring the torque to a cable drive directly below the turbines will enable operation at a much higher altitude.  Using a cable drive will minimize the problems of scale-up of shafts for larger systems since the torsion shafts will only be in the region of the turbines and will only be a small part of the overall length of the system.

3.    The lifter kite can be restrained by diagonal stays with motorized winders so the kite can be laterally moved to create crosswind action. The turbines will experience an increased effective wind speed. Performance and power output will be enhanced if the turbines are oriented to the resultant direction of the wind and the crosswind velocity. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27720 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: The power consumption as the Magnus Effect Balloon or the Sharp
Pierre, maybe not achieved, but it was my hope that the implied procedure would be applied for all of us. 
Let's do the best we might to keep our topics helpful for others.   Thanks. 
==============================================================================
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27722 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: "Betz" limit for VAWT
Hi PierreB,
Here is another article suggesting that the "Betz" limit for VAWT may be
higher than for HAWT. The authors say that their findings are indicative,
but not a final proof. I can't follow their mathematical analysis.
https://orbit.dtu.dk/files/103643693/Analysis_of_VAWT_aerodynamics.pdf
See Fig. 5.
PeterS
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27723 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Jibobo

Jibobo

====================

This is a topic dedicated to the plan for an AWES titled Jibobo.   The title was announced in the titles-only topic thread where no details were allowed.   However, this plan topic on Jibobo allows my placing a plan for the AWES intended under the title Jibobo.    Others are welcome to post in this topic thread; but by special rules I may ask the poster or the moderator of the forum to delete someone's post in this my plan topic thread; see the first post in the titles topic for the policy description at Message 27718.

=-========================================================== further posts will give plan details.  Right now, the planned AWES has a name.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27724 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Twister plan
Twister plan 
will be shared in this topic thread.  
Twister emanates from KiteLab, Los Angeles. 
For some guide on plan sharing see  Message 27718.  .
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27727 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Sandy plan
Sandy , a planned AWES, will have its plan shared in this topic thread.   The title was announced in Message 27718.   And see procedural guidelines in that message about specialized moderation for plan topics. 

Sandy will operate in sandy areas.    More later. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27728 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: "Betz" limit for VAWT
Hi PeterS,

Thanks for the link.

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27730 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: Moderator note
A moderator's note: 

Please avoid laconic chat alone. Ever aim to further the technical topic. 
E.g., a full post of "Thanks."    or the like is to be avoided. Rather, aim to have further notes on topic so that technical core matter continues to be built.    Give something on topic for all future readers of a post. Think RAD for each post.    Consider having some chat reserved to personal emails.   We may build polite community by keeping RAD-to-chat ratios robust for each posted message.     Thanks.       
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27732 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Water Dropper plan

Water Dropper plan

This topic will blossom a plan for Water Dropper, an AWES. 

For guides for this type of plan, see Message 27718. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27733 From: dougselsam Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: Moderator note
 A participant's note:
"Moderator" requests, below:
"E.g., a full post of "Thanks."    or the like is to be avoided."

But "moderator's" previous four (4) "full posts" were just such single-word posts with none of the"further notes on topic so that technical core matter continues to be built" requested in the below "moderator's note". 
Not only is "moderator" mysteriously violating his own new rule-request against single-word posts in the same few minutes, but is indicating that by posting such a single-word message, anyone is then able to delete the posts of others having that same one-word title(?)

The four (4) preceding one-word posts are:
Water-dropper
Sandy
Twister
Jibobo

This would seem to be a response from "moderator" that in 12 years these two know-it-alls have not proposed even a plan for a working system, let alone being recognized as having introduced any working solutions, and instead seek to somehow be recognized for merely defining or redefining words, yet he goes on, introducing single words, implying some further definition of what the word is, "will" (fake-future-news"?) comprise a "plan".  These guys seemingly just can't stop themselves.  They remind me of alcoholics going to a bar to sit down and discuss how they will stop drinking - over a few rounds...



---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <joefaust333@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27734 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: SubWatt plan

SubWatt 

A plan for a specific AWES titled SubWatt will blossom in this topic thread. 

I will announce the title with link in the Message 27718 where some guidelines may be found. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27735 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: AWES plans TITLES
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27736 From: Santos Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Auto-Zenith
A post in reference to New Forum, which does not yet work by phone for me.

≠=========

Auto-Zenith is a natural property of a good power kite on a control bar held crosswind.

Part of AZ stability is a natural center of mass aft of the B-lines spanwise loadpath. All power kites balance this way, not just PL Arc.

Added mass aft is broadly parasitic and destabilizing for any mass that swings like a pendulum. Optimal kite stability mass balance is delicate and highly damped.

A kite control bar is enough "spread anchor geometry" to support Auto-Zenith in smooth moderate wind.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27737 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: Moderator note
LOL, Doug. Thanks. 
Note, perhaps a clarification:   A member may delete their own posts. Such has always been the case.     The special new deal in specialized "plan" topic threads: The "owner" of the topic thread of the type that is blossoming explication of an AWES plan may request that the moderator delete some post in that specific topic thread made by a non-owner poster.   Such deletion process is not normally available on other general topics; that is topic starters have not been given that same level of guide. 
     The special topic for "titles only" requires that following posts in that special topic thread be with laconic titles only, and so without any abstract or explanation or comment: nothing but the title.  A learning occurred:   Consider posting carefully the title of a plan in a new topic; after you see that that title is started, then go post the laconic title in the "titles-only" topic thread.      Of course blossom the owned topic thread that blossoms the plan for an AWES.    
     Thanks for the struggle, Doug.   We'll get through this initial period!
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27738 From: Santos Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: Moderator note
Doug has long set the bar very low by his poorest of any posting standard.

Let Doug post better than JoeF, if he can.

JoeF offers vastly more helpful content as well.

Doug falls shortest both ways.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27739 From: dougselsam Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: SUPERTURBINE®
Hi Gordon and thanks for the positive vibes over the future possibilities of SuperTurbine(TM).
I get a LOT of feedback like this, usually the same few ideas over and over.
Sometimes these ideas are presented to me as "clearly superior", just because the person just thought of it.
Some are already in the patents, sometimes using other terminology, or elsewhere in my experiments or plans.
What people do not realize is most of these possibilities fall into the category of hundreds if not thousands of possible details, too numerous to list, almost unlimited, really, that perhaps could lead somewhere, but also that these machines do not necessarily act the way one thinks they "should" on-paper, once built and run.

You're lucky if a new wind energy system doesn't fly apart on the first try.  Or, just sit there - maybe the safest outcome for most people.  Usually there are some big surprises when running any new type of wind energy system, as in "Wow I never considered it would do THAT!" (Add a thousand exclamation points here)
This was how I was able to advise CB and Roddy to first try hard airfoils to make more power, then to flatten the pitch for more output, but to expect the machine to then fly apart, which both did.  Who knew?  Me.  Been there, done that.

Peter Sharp, for one, first introduced himself to me via email with HIS idea for a "clearly-superior" SuperT by modifying my (multi-parallel-driveshaft rectangular arrays with a single collective driveshaft along the bottom), to substitute his new, untested idea for including his new, untested, string-based 180-degree universal joints at each end of the ST driveshafts, instead of the collective driveshaft.  Again, nothing I hadn't thought of too, except I would have used proven hardware to achieve the multiple 180-degree U-turns, assuming I thought 180-degree couplings were better than the 90-degree couplings to a single collector driveshaft the design already had.  Peter's idea was interesting, but in my opinion, the requirement for 180-degree couplings over 90-degree couplings, the unproven new TYPE of couplings, more bearings, more driveshafts, combined with the requirement for every section to carry the cumulative, additive torque of preceding driveshaft sections, did not seem overly-compelling.  Nonetheless, I appreciated the creative input.  My advice to Peter was to work on his universal joint idea alone, as a start.  Get a new idea perfected, or at least developed, before trying to apply it to ANOTHER new idea.. 

When you have to actually build and run these things, you remember (or find out) one thing from the world of proven wind energy systems: The simpler you can keep things, the more likely to survive even the first minute of operation, let alone years.  Nonetheless, I thank you for your urge to contribute to progress, not just for me but for anyone's design you see possibilities for.  You are "preaching to the choir" here.  I'm to the point that I have so many of these wind energy ideas for both concepts and modifications thereof, both SuperT-based and otherwise, I find there is no possibility of writing about them all, and would rather save the energy for building configurations I see as promising and viable.


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <gordon_sp@... bemoaning lack of progress in AWE, why don’t we discuss possible improvements to your Superturbine® concept? I have three improvement suggestions for your Sky Serpent™.

1.    Insertion of double universal joints at each turbine location will enable the orientation of all turbines to directly face the wind direction therefore eliminating cosine cubed losses. The angle of the tether can be increased and enable operation at higher altitudes.  In addition the double universal joints will eliminate bending forces on the shafts between the turbines.  In your design, the combination of bending forces and torque would require much stronger shafts.  In the case of high winds which might cause damage, the turbines can be rotated to the vertical position which will minimize forces.

2.    Transferring the torque to a cable drive directly below the turbines will enable operation at a much higher altitude.  Using a cable drive will minimize the problems of scale-up of shafts for larger systems since the torsion shafts will only be in the region of the turbines and will only be a small part of the overall length of the system.

3.    The lifter kite can be restrained by diagonal stays with motorized winders so the kite can be laterally moved to create crosswind action. The turbines will experience an increased effective wind speed. Performance and power output will be enhanced if the turbines are oriented to the resultant direction of the wind and the crosswind velocity. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27740 From: dougselsam Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: Moderator note
daveS is still trying to wiggle his way into some version of "progress", without ever introducing a viable AWE solution.  Trying to nitpick people nitpicking other peoples' nitpicking posts is one more way that won't work.  Try again, daveS.   :)))


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27741 From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: New file uploaded to AirborneWindEnergy
Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the AirborneWindEnergy
group.

File : /6 x 1 m balloon.JPG
Uploaded by : benhaiemp <pierre-benhaiem@orange.fr Description : As a possible Magnus effect balloon of 6 m long and 1 m diameter

You can access this file at the URL:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AirborneWindEnergy/files/6%20x%201%20m%20balloon.JPG

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
https://help.yahoo.com/kb/index?page=content&y=PROD_GRPS&locale=en_US&id=SLN15398

Regards,

benhaiemp <pierre-benhaiem@orange.fr
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27742 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: New file uploaded to AirborneWindEnergy
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27743 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: New file uploaded to AirborneWindEnergy
Thanks Joe.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27744 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: New file uploaded to AirborneWindEnergy
I just read Doug's post, and I am sorry to not be within moderation rules as my previous message contains only two words, of which "thanks".
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27745 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: Moderator note
Something was left out!    I had noted: " A learning occurred:   Consider posting carefully the title of a plan in a new topic; after you see that that title is started, then go post the laconic title in the "titles-only" topic thread."   What was left out is the following: 

One may hyperlink the text title, so the link leads to the introductory post concerning the plan's topic where the plan will blossom.  In the titles-only for plan titles topic  only hyperlinks to a forum topic message will stand; if a title is hyperlinked in that special titles-only for plans to a target outside the forum, then such will be deleted. 

Of course, within the topic that blossoms the plan for an AWES, links may go outside the forum. 

Moderator
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27746 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: AWES plans TITLES
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27747 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: AWES plans TITLES
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27748 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: AWES plans TITLES
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27749 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Re: AWES plans TITLES
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27750 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/19/2019
Subject: Stability of a Magnus effect balloon inflated with air flying like a
Attachments :

    Hi PeterS,


    I remember some discussion about Magnus effect balloon inflated with air. If I recall well you indicated me that Omnidea's balloon (which has no endplate or central disk) stability is because it is inflated with helium, precising that a Magnus kite should have a central large disk for its stability. Is it the same (probably yes but...) for a cylindrical air-inflated balloon, at any scale, at any aspect ratio? 


    I attach a photo of a 6 m x 1 m balloon, in order to show it looks easy to make, and at any scale, apart other concerns like the motor onboard and the required disk(s) for its stability.

    A balloon without disks like helium-inflated Omnidea's balloon looks easier to maneuver. If the lack of disk leads to a lesser efficiency, this is not so important because a larger cylindrical balloon is easy to build. But if the lack of disk leads to a lack of stability, it is another story. And I want a balloon with only air, no helium.

    Please what are your observations?


    PierreB 
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27751 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/19/2019
    Subject: MirRib plan
    MirRib 
    This topic thread is to blossom a plan for MirRib, an AWES from KiteLab, Los Angeles, California. 
    Scale: handy by or two persons as anchors, but inert anchoring may substitute. 
    Practical for attention getting for such purposes as advertising or celebration. 
    An eAWE version of MirRib  called  MirRibE will be having a separate dedicated topic plan.
    The plan rights: public domain. 
    More plan blossoming for MirRib later.   

    I will now post this present message.  Then I'll wait to see the new URL for this introductory post (Yahoo might post in a few seconds or minute or so, sometimes longer).   Then I will copy the URL of this post for use in hyperlinking the title of this AWES inside the topic beginning at  Message 27718.  

    ================== soon enough for more on this plan. 
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27752 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/19/2019
    Subject: MirRibE plan
    MirRibE plan
    This topic thread will blossom a plan for an AWES called MirRibE.    
    • Scale: Handy by one or two persons. Alternatively the scale permits handy anchoring.
    • Self-starting. 
    • Load for the generated electricity: LEDs on wing and anchors for night-lighting effects. Other load schemes may be arranged. 
    •  
    ,,, more plan details later. 
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27753 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/19/2019
    Subject: Re: AWES plans TITLES
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27754 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/19/2019
    Subject: Re: AWES plans TITLES