27472 upward to  27499 
27472    Re: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
Dave Santos             July 15, 2019

There is a "valid principle" here, that a more complex blade motion can harvest marginally more power, but the engineering of the more complex mechanism, its extra friction, lower reliability, and most of all, lower power-to-weight, keep this idea limited to an interesting study-case in AWE.
27473Re: [AWES] Kiteboarding
Doug Selsam                    July 15, 2019

NO I did not watch it.
NO windsurfing is not AWE as originally defined.
The first airborne wind energy conference was not about old stuff like windsurfing, it was about a new idea - replacing tower-supported wind turbines.
The term Airborne Wind Energy was coined in response for the best terminology to refer to generating electricity from kites or some other way to use the wind to not only power the system but also to elevate it.
THEN JoeF and daveS started playing their word-definition games, and they actually got to the point of seriously claiming that leaves wiggling on trees constitute airborne wind energy.  Wow, that really takes the pressure off developing an AWE system off, doesn't it?  Just go for a walk in the woods and you are an AWE developer AND a complete genius!
Forgetting that the term airborne wind energy had been coined in response to a certain situation, they decided to let the term be whatever it wanted - it could literally mean anything, including just flying a kite, or flying a kite in the sun whereby its shadow was said to be producing energy due to the alternative of providing an air conditioner to the same empty spot, and finally even just hanging up a tarp in the yard became "airborne wind energy" just by the fact that it wiggled - in short, due to an inability to meet the challenge of AWE, these two guys decided to try to redefine words instead of doing anything.  This left all the pre-existing kite and wind energy systems, not to mention the airlines of the world (taking account of weather in flight plans) exactly as they were, while trying to divert peoples' attention away from the original meaning, to just say the term now meant any situation where the words airborne, wind, and energy COULD be applied, in any stretched definition of the words or even new implied definitions that never existed before, such as "proving shade" or that stationary concrete anchors underground were dynamic "wings" providing "lift" even though there is no fluid, no foil, and no movement.  So, in order to rationalize their new hobby of redefining words, they began redefining other words too.  In other words, they defined the words to define a goal, then immediately began destroying that definition instead of pursuing the goal, claiming that the destruction of the original definition amounted to achieving the goal.. Very weird.
Today, they stand exactly as they did 12 years ago, with virtually no progress, and nary any real attempt to make any progress the entire time.
27474      Re: [AWES] The winning AWE method(s)
benhaiemp     July 15, 2019  
A know-nothing comment.
27475     Re: The New Selsam Rotor, (The Dougley McRotor)
dougselsam              July 15, 2019
Tallak, given your inability to envision which way a skewed rotor diverts its wake, you might be wasting your time even being involved in airborne wind energy.
27476      Re: [AWES] Kiteboarding
Dave Santos    July 15, 2019
Doug, "windsurfing" is not kitesurfing.

Regarding how many AWE developers may not see kitesurfing as AWE proper, its necessary to recall how MIT-Boeing aerospace engineer, Billy Roeseler, and his son, Corey, first invented the sport on the Lower Columbia River. Billy had produced a landmark AWE proposal internally at Boeing, that did not get developed, so he turned instead to inventing kitesurfing. A true genius.

The connection between kite sports and AWE R&D is inherent and essential.

Guessing you will not buy a cheap power kite to try (too busy here, maybe). Did you see the Old Master's technique? Your guesswork was unreliable.
27477     New file uploaded to AirborneWindEnergy
benhaiemp             July 15, 2019
WO2016207574A1.pdf     Controlled-displacement active lift turbine
27478      Re: [AWES] The winning AWE method(s)
Dave Santos      July 15, 2019
Then do better.
27479      Re: [AWES] Re: AWEIA back in the picture
dougselsam               July 15, 2019
By the way I left out Tacos and Beans as two more contributions of the new world to the rest of the world.
Enough to write a book about.
What is the world's largest crop today?  Corn, developed in Mexico.
Really, people have no idea how the world changed after Columbus.
Ethnic cuisine around the world is actually based on "new" foods from America (Atlantis).
Whether you are talking about some potato-based dish from Russia, or hot-and-spicy food from Thailand or Schezuan, many of the key ingredients came from here.
A billion cigarette smokers in Asia, all enjoying another gift from America every few minutes.  
27480       New file uploaded to AirborneWindEnergy
Uploaded by : benhaiemp              July 15, 2019
27481     Re: [AWES] Re: Kite Power's Initial Mishap Statement
Joe Faust         July 15, 2019

Technical details of what went wrong could be shared to the entire AWE community worldwide with full transparency for all sectors of shareholders (government, investors, potential customers, peer developers, and the general public who may vote for or against AWE) in order to build trust in our nascent industry.  Failing transparency as regards the facts may build distrust that could hurt the industry.  The matter is not "European" but technical kiting which is open to all people around the world.  The facts ought not be kept behind local closed doors.   The facts should be open so that experts in and out of local camps could play in the analysis of fixes. 
27482    Re: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
dougselsam      July 15, 2019
It took you 12 years to figure that out?  Real wind people already knew this.

27483      Re: [AWES] Kiteboarding
dougselsam        July 15,2019
Windsurfing may not always be kitesurfing, but kitesurfing is always windsurfing, always has been, is no longer new, and is not replacing tower-mounted wind turbines.  Your problem is you are (in my opinion) fixated on every possible distraction to the point that it is obvious you will never develop a working AWE system of any kind.  You are not the tortoise, you are the highly-distracted hare, and there is nothing too trivial to distract you over and over and over again.
27484      Re: [AWES]  The winning AWE method(s)
Joe Faust           July 15, 2019

It would be helpful on laconic posts to identify the target of the comment.
Thanks for putting some notes, so readers later may know how to relate the short comment that you just posted:
27485     Re: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
benhaiemp       July 15, 2019
The two attachments are on the personal email I received from Yahoo but not on Yahoo website. There is a problem with attachments. I put these two files in "Files" (ALT..., and WO...), but there is no URL when I open them on "Files".

Did you received the two attachments, and in first the jpg ALT mechanism not workable ?  If no you can go on "Files" then the concerned file I attach again.

27487     Re: The winning AWE method(s)
benhaiemp           July 15, 2019
Sorry, it was my reply to Doug's comment.
27488       Re: New file uploaded to AirborneWindEnergy
benhaiemp             July 15, 2019
Thanks Joe for the URL,  With you, all is better.
27489     Re: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
Dave Santos           July 15, 2019
No Doug, I learned this from sailing a kid, almost 50 years ago.
27490      Re: [AWES] Kiteboarding
Dave Santos      July 15, 2019

Doug, WIndsurfing is based on a sail mounted right at the surfboard. See the video, how kitesurfing first beat windsurfing. They know the difference.

Wikipedia- "The (windsurfing) rig is connected to the board by a free-rotating universal joint and consists of a mast, boom and sail." No tethered wing in upper wind.
27491    Re: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
Dave Santos       July 15, 2019
Correcting typo and adding detail: "No Doug, I learned this from sailing AS a kid, almost 50 years ago".

Specifically I learned in sailboat racing, where its prohibited to pump (move) the rig to add power, but one can roll-tack frequently to advance in light air. The ALT is just the first time the general principle of extra travel or motion to eke out more performance is discussed here.

Did you see the Old Master image yet? You seem to "go away quietly" whenever hard evidence proves you mistaken.
27492      Re: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT [1 Attachment]
Joe Faust           July 15, 2019

1. Yes, my email has the "not workable ALT" attachment.
2. Yes, I can also reach the two files you placed in group's "Files".  And yes, items in "Files" apparently are for download, except maybe if the file was .txt file.
Thanks for your exploration on functions.
27493     Re: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Indeed we speak about the ALT principle and the mechanism, trying to see if they are workable, not yet about complexity.
27494    Re: [AWES] Kiteboarding
Dave Santos             July 15, 2019

Pierre overlooks that the 2030 timeframe is only for industrial AWE at megawatt scale, not kitesurfing as a stepping-stone.

AWE itself began in Nature with flying seeds and ballooning insects, millions of years ago.
27495        Re: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
Dave Santos    July 15, 2019

Actually, the core principle is more blade sweep can add power (up to a point), and everyone who understood Loyd since 1980, or who knew sailing, knew this, but Doug didn't read Loyd, so he guessed wrong on this point.
27496      Re: [AWES] Kiteboarding
benhaiemp      July 15, 2019
I precise again. Kitesurfing is a current sport. As DaveS predicts AWE success for 2030, he cannot consider kitesurfing as an AWE branch.
27497      Re: [AWES] Kiteboarding
Dave Santos        July 15, 2019

Pierre, consult the Critical Path graph. a KiteSurfing data point is there, but the ~2030 timeframe is for utility scale. Don't just give me credit- Carlo Pedrassi, a talented engineer who worked for WoW, also deserves credit.

Let's see how well your 2019 prediction compares, and what data you use.
27498      Re: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
dougselsam             July 15, 2019

Hello daveS:  I don't follow every new acronym you come up with, but in general, in wind energy, it's well-understood to be the equivalent of putting about 250,000 miles on a car per year, therefore the most important design factor, especially at smaller scales, is to keep things super-simple, with the fewest moving parts, simplest movements, and fewest lubrication points, if any.  Other choices, especially on-paper-only "Professor Crackpot" ideas, are usually non-starters, and if they DO start, usually do not last long.  Nonetheless, I will always remain disappointed that laddermill was so celebrated then given up on before even being tried.  And when I say "tried" I'm not talking about some half-assed fake-talking-point try, I'm talking about a working system.

No I have not seen an image of your egg tempera painting but I would love to.
Maybe Joe can come up with a URL from Energy Kite Systems.
I do think you did a good job on the Wubbo collage artwork, and I seem to remember seeing it in the past too.
27499         Re: [AWES] Kiteboarding
dougselsam            July 15, 2019

Pierre: It is just one more example of how these guys can't keep their story straight.
See other messages from index page.