Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                          AWES 27396 to 27445 Page 439 of 440.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27396 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/13/2019
Subject: Re: The Single-Line AWES Crisis

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27397 From: dave santos Date: 7/13/2019
Subject: Re: The Single-Line AWES Crisis

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27398 From: dave santos Date: 7/13/2019
Subject: Re: The Single-Line AWES Crisis

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27399 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/13/2019
Subject: Re: The Single-Line AWES Crisis

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27400 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: The Single-Line AWES Crisis

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27401 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: Kiteboarding

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27402 From: dave santos Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: The Single-Line AWES Crisis

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27403 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: The Single-Line AWES Crisis

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27404 From: dougselsam Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27405 From: dave santos Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: The Single-Line AWES Crisis

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27406 From: dave santos Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27407 From: dougselsam Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: The New Selsam Rotor, (The Dougley McRotor)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27408 From: dougselsam Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27409 From: dave santos Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27410 From: dave santos Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: The New Selsam Rotor, (The Dougley McRotor)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27411 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: The New Selsam Rotor, (The Dougley McRotor)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27412 From: dougselsam Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: The New Selsam Rotor, (The Dougley McRotor)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27413 From: dave santos Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: The New Selsam Rotor, (The Dougley McRotor)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27414 From: dougselsam Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: The New Selsam Rotor, (The Dougley McRotor)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27415 From: dave santos Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27416 From: dave santos Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: The New Selsam Rotor, (The Dougley McRotor)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27417 From: dougselsam Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27418 From: dave santos Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27419 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27420 From: dave santos Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27421 From: dougselsam Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27422 From: dave santos Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27423 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27424 From: dougselsam Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27425 From: dougselsam Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27426 From: dave santos Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27427 From: dave santos Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: Cyclic-Porosity Sails?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27428 From: dave santos Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: Windvogel quasiAWE wins EU Lighting Award

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27429 From: dave santos Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: AWEIA back in the picture

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27430 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: The winning AWE method(s)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27431 From: dave santos Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: The winning AWE method(s)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27432 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: The winning AWE method(s)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27433 From: dave santos Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: The winning AWE method(s)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27434 From: dave santos Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: Kiteboarding

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27435 From: dave santos Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: The winning AWE method(s)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27436 From: dave santos Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Kite Psychology- Malaysian view of kite as wild child

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27437 From: dave santos Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Power Bol Architectures Continued- Flygen Ring Bol

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27438 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: Power Bol Architectures Continued- Flygen Ring Bol

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27439 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: Power Bol Architectures Continued- Flygen Ring Bol

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27440 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Photo-In-message experiments for our group

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27441 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: Photo-In-message experiments for our group

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27442 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: Photo-In-message experiments for our group

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27443 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: Photo-In-message experiments for our group

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27444 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: Photo-In-message experiments for our group

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27445 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: Photo-In-message experiments for our group




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27396 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/13/2019
Subject: Re: The Single-Line AWES Crisis
Dave,

I indicated the limits of their architecture in regard to a not possible maximization of the space use (long tether, small kite), in regard to discontinuous power... The answer was securing automated flight of an unity before all other things. And also there were some critic about my Rotating Reel as it would not fly high enough. But it is because he scales in all dimensions, comprising the altitude, exactly like other carousels where the diameter of the ground ring determines the altitude of the kites. Moreover it would fly still higher (keeping an efficiency good enough) with a strong lifting kite.

Indeed there is no progress of all crosswind kites with a single line. I think when funding will stop, some more appropriate multi-tethered kite systems will be more likely examined.

By soon I will (again) inform some searchers in TU DELFT circles from the inherent limits of a single-line crosswind AWES, but with little hope for an immediate change.




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27397 From: dave santos Date: 7/13/2019
Subject: Re: The Single-Line AWES Crisis
From an analytic perspective, most multi-line AWES architectures solve the problem. There are several players with two-line AWES. Its very unlikely that both lines part at the same time, and such kites kite-kill passively on one line. 

The crisis cases are single-line with control-pod, with both balanced tether dragging and pod mass to sustain passive flight for long distances; and then conductive tether mass is also potentially flight sustaining in runaway mode.

KiteLab Group's early finding amounts to this- A single AWES kite line consists of theoretically almost infinite failure points along its length. That's poor odds. Two tethers not parting at the same time is good odds. An extra kill-line is workable.

KIteLab Group and kPower have long tested and shared these specific lessons.





 

Pierre,

Have you been warning TUDelft circles about their AWES single-line dependency, whether or not they support your Rotating Reels? 

You have had the closest relations to them and AWEurope, of anyone that posts here, and you have long followed the safety issues as warned here.



On ‎Saturday‎, ‎July‎ ‎13‎, ‎2019‎ ‎06‎:‎16‎:‎01‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, pierre-benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


 

For several years I have investigated some architectures of which one with a huge rotating kite driving a ground ring with peripheral ropes: 
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/324135034_Airborne_Wind_Energy_Conversion_Using_a_Rotating_Reel_System.
Such an architecture can be safer thanks to the multi lines, and also to the possibility of depower by reversal the kite held only by the central rope. It scales by all dimensions, a small device flying in low altitude, a large device flying in high altitude.
To solve; the huge rotating power kite, the lifting kite, the ground rotor for a cheaper transmission.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27398 From: dave santos Date: 7/13/2019
Subject: Re: The Single-Line AWES Crisis
Pierre,

You have to stand up to them and leave a written public trail as you do, and we will support you. 

They were criticized here just before the mishap, for worn lines, flawed reel design, and single-line pod and com-link dependency.

You tend to defend the leadership, and have not pointed out the accident potential, at least not on the record. Mishap topic is not to promote any pet scheme. Many other architectures do not have the flaws that caused this mishap and pose the crisis. Don't just push one concept as the cure.

 
  ===============  Sample Recent Pre-Mishap Kite Power Warning  ===============
dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

Fast reeling under variable tension is very demanding mechanically. From KiteGen to TUDelft to KPS, rapid destruction of kitelines is evident in photos. In some cases the fairlead design was clearly inadequate, as KPS's video revealed. I personally saw KiteGen's frazzled lines in 2011, after not many hours of testing. TUDelfts KitePower venture photos show uneven spooling despite a complex fairlead. It seems that tensile-phonon kite chaos gets past the fairlead stage to mess up level-wind spooling. A spool with variable high-tensions stored on the line will tend to cause small slips as tension is released.

Better load isolation of the spool is wanted. kPower long advocates heavy wearing sections of cable, belting, or chain; esp. for short-stoke pumping cycles. Our best dynamic reeling similarity cases are scientific deep-sea reeling from wave tossed ships. The marine-tech field is well ahead of AWES design in line-handling. kPower long advocates heavy wearing sections of cable, belting, or chain; esp. for short-stoke pumping cycles. There is also the severe challenge to reliably handle reel-in phase of a hot kiteplane like the AP3 at



From an analytic perspective, most multi-line AWES architectures solve the problem. There are several players with two-line AWES. Its very unlikely that both lines part at the same time, and such kites kite-kill passively on one line. 

The crisis cases are single-line with control-pod, with both balanced tether dragging and pod mass to sustain passive flight for long distances; and then conductive tether mass is also potentially flight sustaining in runaway mode.

KiteLab Group's early finding amounts to this- A single AWES kite line consists of theoretically almost infinite failure points along its length. That's poor odds. Two tethers not parting at the same time is good odds. An extra kill-line is workable.

KIteLab Group and kPower have long tested and shared these specific lessons.



On ‎Saturday‎, ‎July‎ ‎13‎, ‎2019‎ ‎06‎:‎33‎:‎29‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


Pierre,

Have you been warning TUDelft circles about their AWES single-line dependency, whether or not they support your Rotating Reels? 

You have had the closest relations to them and AWEurope, of anyone that posts here, and you have long followed the safety issues as warned here.



On ‎Saturday‎, ‎July‎ ‎13‎, ‎2019‎ ‎06‎:‎16‎:‎01‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, pierre-benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


For several years I have investigated some architectures of which one with a huge rotating kite driving a ground ring with peripheral ropes: 
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/324135034_Airborne_Wind_Energy_Conversion_Using_a_Rotating_Reel_System.
Such an architecture can be safer thanks to the multi lines, and also to the possibility of depower by reversal the kite held only by the central rope. It scales by all dimensions, a small device flying in low altitude, a large device flying in high altitude.
To solve; the huge rotating power kite, the lifting kite, the ground rotor for a cheaper transmission.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27399 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/13/2019
Subject: Re: The Single-Line AWES Crisis
Dave,

Page 574 of the chapter 22: "In case of failure of the electrical system and/or in case of rupturing of one or

more tethers, the Parotor can be held by the central rope."


So I mentioned safety concern in this multi lines concept, even as the maximization of the space use remains the main concern, considering also that both can be connected. 


Unfortunately different schemes of multi-lines are not well documented enough, excepted Daisy and rotating reel. Relating problems like the wear of the tether during reeling is positive but not enough. 


A complete workable solution should be proposed. 


 


n case of failure of the electrical system and/or in case of rupturing of one or
more tethers, the Parotor can be held by the central rope


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  
  ===============  Sample Recent Pre-Mishap Kite Power Warning  ===============
dave santos santos137@... [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com On ‎Saturday‎, ‎July‎ ‎13‎, ‎2019‎ ‎06‎:‎33‎:‎29‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, dave santos santos137@... [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com On ‎Saturday‎, ‎July‎ ‎13‎, ‎2019‎ ‎06‎:‎16‎:‎01‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, pierre-benhaiem@... 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Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27400 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: The Single-Line AWES Crisis
[[Reprint in attempt to get paragraphs within screen:]]
Dave Santos had posted: 

-------------
Fast reeling under variable tension is very demanding mechanically. From KiteGen to TUDelft to KPS, rapid destruction of kitelines is evident in photos. In some cases the fairlead design was clearly inadequate, as KPS's video revealed. I personally saw KiteGen's frazzled lines in 2011, after not many hours of testing. TUDelfts KitePower venture photos show uneven spooling despite a complex fairlead. It seems that tensile-phonon kite chaos gets past the fairlead stage to mess up level-wind spooling. A spool with variable high-tensions stored on the line will tend to cause small slips as tension is released.

Better load isolation of the spool is wanted. kPower long advocates heavy wearing sections of cable, belting, or chain; esp. for short-stoke pumping cycles. Our best dynamic reeling similarity cases are scientific deep-sea reeling from wave tossed ships. The marine-tech field is well ahead of AWES design in line-handling. kPower long advocates heavy wearing sections of cable, belting, or chain; esp. for short-stoke pumping cycles. There is also the severe challenge to reliably handle reel-in phase of a hot kiteplane like the AP3 at
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27401 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: Kiteboarding

UPWIND - Launch of a Sport - History of Kitesurfing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27402 From: dave santos Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: The Single-Line AWES Crisis
Pierre,

One non-specific sentence published mostly behind a paywall is not very close to kPower and KiteLab Group's unrivalled Safety Analysis practice, that specifically identified Kite Power's worn line hazard just one month before the Mishap, plus thousands of previous general and specific safety messages over 12 years, plus TACO1.0. If you also intend to lead in AWE safety, more effort is needed.

Rotating Reels at the moment is not so much a safety lesson as just a particular scheme with more than one tether. More than a hundred other schemes have multiple tethers with safety advantage. Count them together. Aviation Safety Culture is blunt, both general and detailed in scope, suitably elaborated like TACO.

In its own topic, Rotating Reels, like all carousel-class AWES, has comparative architectural issues with its less productive motion phases up and downwind circular travel. To be a safety leader case, specific failure modes need to be addressed, like how a point-failure along the circular track somehow passively initiates shutdown of the entire circular reel train, with all its bulk momentum and kites. Because rotating reels is an ambitious complex concept, its safety advantages and "train-wreck" vulnerabilities are complex. You have made the smallest start in its safety analysis.

Any multi-line power kite is far safer than a single line. Within TUDelft's inside circle, Enerkite's two-line AWES has the edge in runaway safety, if speaking of current working examples with dangerous potential. I ran down and caught a 50m2 show kite that got away from a kite festival dragging a large steel spike, when no one else reacted. Only the lucky presence of a man far downwind weighing about 200kg allowed that kite to be stopped. Rotating Reels is not a general enough solution to the broad single-line runaway issue. Toy AWES demos are not a major hazard.


 

Dave,


Page 574 of the chapter 22: "In case of failure of the electrical system and/or in case of rupturing of one or

more tethers, the Parotor can be held by the central rope."


So I mentioned safety concern in this multi lines concept, even as the maximization of the space use remains the main concern, considering also that both can be connected. 


Unfortunately different schemes of multi-lines are not well documented enough, excepted Daisy and rotating reel. Relating problems like the wear of the tether during reeling is positive but not enough. 


A complete workable solution should be proposed. 


 


n case of failure of the electrical system and/or in case of rupturing of one or
more tethers, the Parotor can be held by the central rope


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  
  ===============  Sample Recent Pre-Mishap Kite Power Warning  ===============
dave santos santos137@... [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com On ‎Saturday‎, ‎July‎ ‎13‎, ‎2019‎ ‎06‎:‎33‎:‎29‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, dave santos santos137@... [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com On ‎Saturday‎, ‎July‎ ‎13‎, ‎2019‎ ‎06‎:‎16‎:‎01‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, pierre-benhaiem@... [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27403 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: The Single-Line AWES Crisis

Dave,

I precise Rotating Reel is far to be proved as a possible viable AWES, that in regard to the safety among other concerns.

Indeed Enerkite works on a multi-line power kite and is in TU DELFT circle.  So there is no problem: wait and see.

You wrote: "One non-specific sentence published mostly behind a paywall is not very close to kPower and KiteLab Group's unrivalled Safety Analysis practice, that specifically identified Kite Power's worn line hazard just one month before the Mishap, plus thousands of previous general and specific safety messages over 12 years, plus TACO1.0. If you also intend to lead in AWE safety, more effort is needed."

It is perfect. When Tu Delft will be informed, they will take better solutions within KPower's and KiteLab's work.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27404 From: dougselsam Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art
Dear daveS:  Referring to your original message of July 12, 10:50 AM, there is nothing to click on.

And I am flattered that you would copy me by referring to "Crying Wolf", since I often show how timeless parables and even childrens' stories explain otherwise indecipherable human behavior.  But you;re just trying to imitate me again.  Flattering, yes, but coming from you yet again, also annoying.  Let's add "copycat" to the daveS quiver of online trolling techniques.

There IS NO LINK shown in my browser, nothing to click on, just the abbreviated word "attch". 
About as predictable and (not) impressive as your 4-second "blink-and-you-missed-it" videos.

While I have since seen your photoshop montage of "Wubbo" (more wubbo-worship), in followup oosts that actually HD the image, it is a distraction, one more example of your shell-game technique of pretending to "win" arguments you start by changing the subject.

The subject WAS, in light of mention of The Mona Lisa oil painting  by DaVinci,  your assertion that you know DaVinci, saying you practice the techniques of the old masters

Seeing one more example of you trying to associate yourself with, or say you are better than, most if not all names recognized as great thinkers and doers, (Wright Brothers, DaVinci, Maxwell, Einstein, Betz, etc., etc., etc.) I saw one more opportunity to debunk your incessant nonsense and unsubstantiated bragging, and asked you to SHOW US AN EXAMPLE OF YOUR SUPPOSED DA VINCI-LIKE PAINTING TECHNIQUE.:

Predictably, you are unable to show us any such thing.
And you continue your shell-game technique of endless distraction and inability to stick with a topic.

As usual, you have no answer, and try to change the subject, making any conversation with you as impossible as trying to grip a greased water-balloon.

Thanks for showing us you can use photoshop, or cut-paste a roadrunner cartoon - my favorite.  Now that I'm located in the location that inspired Roadrunner cartoons (Mojave Desert) we see roadrunners and coyotes all the time.  Never seen a coyote chasing a roadrunner though...  And coyotes are still working on mastering mail-ordering anvils from Acme - the problem seems to be a lack of brains and working fingers.  Maybe you have the same problem preventing you from making any power in 12 years of supposed cutting-edge wind energy research.

I guess we will never be privileged to see your great works of art comparable to DaVinci, any more than we'll ever see your wind energy systems that beat the Betz coefficient, or that even move the needle on a power-meter.  Dsappointing, but, by this point, 100% predictable.



---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

http://www.energykitesystems.net/DaveSantos/wubbounderground.jpg



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Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27405 From: dave santos Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: The Single-Line AWES Crisis
To the extent your Springer chapter was a model safety topic, and the Springer pay wall never prevents anyone from finding your open version, that's a good.

No other Open AWE Safety discussion is even partly behind any paywall, and its the best available (TACO).

The record shows AWEC stealth ventures have not led in public safety knowledge, but led in capital investment promotion. Great if you have been challenging them like you may challenge Open AWE safety here to become even better.


 


Dave,

I precise Rotating Reel is far to be proved as a possible viable AWES, that in regard to the safety among other concerns.

Indeed Enerkite works on a multi-line power kite and is in TU DELFT circle.  So there is no problem: wait and see.

You wrote: "One non-specific sentence published mostly behind a paywall is not very close to kPower and KiteLab Group's unrivalled Safety Analysis practice, that specifically identified Kite Power's worn line hazard just one month before the Mishap, plus thousands of previous general and specific safety messages over 12 years, plus TACO1.0. If you also intend to lead in AWE safety, more effort is needed."

It is perfect. When Tu Delft will be informed, they will take better solutions within KPower's and KiteLab's work.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27406 From: dave santos Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art
Doug,

You have been crying wolf for years about "Professor Crackpots", and accusations of fake sources, like the art you guessed wrong did not exist just because you could not find the attachment and could not wait a day or two for someone to help out.

We hold open the possibility you could be right someday in this sort of paranoia, with documentable proof. You had wrongly thought the "cry wolf" story lesson was that selected AWE claims that lapse prove nothing will ever happen.



 

Dear daveS:  Referring to your original message of July 12, 10:50 AM, there is nothing to click on.

And I am flattered that you would copy me by referring to "Crying Wolf", since I often show how timeless parables and even childrens' stories explain otherwise indecipherable human behavior.  But you;re just trying to imitate me again.  Flattering, yes, but coming from you yet again, also annoying.  Let's add "copycat" to the daveS quiver of online trolling techniques.

There IS NO LINK shown in my browser, nothing to click on, just the abbreviated word "attch". 
About as predictable and (not) impressive as your 4-second "blink-and-you-missed-it" videos.

While I have since seen your photoshop montage of "Wubbo" (more wubbo-worship), in followup oosts that actually HD the image, it is a distraction, one more example of your shell-game technique of pretending to "win" arguments you start by changing the subject.

The subject WAS, in light of mention of The Mona Lisa oil painting  by DaVinci,  your assertion that you know DaVinci, saying you practice the techniques of the old masters

Seeing one more example of you trying to associate yourself with, or say you are better than, most if not all names recognized as great thinkers and doers, (Wright Brothers, DaVinci, Maxwell, Einstein, Betz, etc., etc., etc.) I saw one more opportunity to debunk your incessant nonsense and unsubstantiated bragging, and asked you to SHOW US AN EXAMPLE OF YOUR SUPPOSED DA VINCI-LIKE PAINTING TECHNIQUE.:

Predictably, you are unable to show us any such thing.
And you continue your shell-game technique of endless distraction and inability to stick with a topic.

As usual, you have no answer, and try to change the subject, making any conversation with you as impossible as trying to grip a greased water-balloon.

Thanks for showing us you can use photoshop, or cut-paste a roadrunner cartoon - my favorite.  Now that I'm located in the location that inspired Roadrunner cartoons (Mojave Desert) we see roadrunners and coyotes all the time.  Never seen a coyote chasing a roadrunner though...  And coyotes are still working on mastering mail-ordering anvils from Acme - the problem seems to be a lack of brains and working fingers.  Maybe you have the same problem preventing you from making any power in 12 years of supposed cutting-edge wind energy research.

I guess we will never be privileged to see your great works of art comparable to DaVinci, any more than we'll ever see your wind energy systems that beat the Betz coefficient, or that even move the needle on a power-meter.  Dsappointing, but, by this point, 100% predictable.



---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

http://www.energykitesystems.net/DaveSantos/wubbounderground.jpg



---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27407 From: dougselsam Date: 7/14/2019
Subject: The New Selsam Rotor, (The Dougley McRotor)
Attachments :

    Hi Guys

    I was just thinking how much like, well, you know, The Wright Brothers, Da Vinci, Maxwell, Einstein, Peter Sharp, etc. I must be, due to my "cutting-edge wind energy research" (at Walmart, just yesterday), where I spent 3 seconds "developing" "The Selsam Rotor".  Similar to a Sharp Rotor, my version has 5 lobes (blades?) instead of just 3.  A 60% improvement!!!  I'm including a picture. This is cutting-edge, and will change the face of wind energy forever.  Move over Einstein and DaVinci (Oh and don't forget "Santos") - Doug Selsam is "in the house".  (Cuz its too hot to go outside, and too many coyotes).


    Notice the "attachment" - you can actually click on it and see the image - first try!

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27408 From: dougselsam Date: 7/14/2019
    Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art
    Copycat - come up with your own theme.  The Boy Who Cried Wolf refers to the "false-news-of-the-future" and how many times people like you will fall for it.  "The Emperor's New Clothes" refers to how even a little kid can sometimes see newly-entrenched yet suspiciously unverifiable paradigms as invalid.

    The art I guessed doesn't exist was never a photoshop cut-paste (that was your shell game again), it was your claimed paintings in the style of the old masters whereby you "knew" daVinci, attempting more self-glorification. You tried to substitute an unrelated photoshop cut-paste, but initially didn't provide a working link even for that.


    ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

    Dear daveS:  Referring to your original message of July 12, 10:50 AM, there is nothing to click on.

    And I am flattered that you would copy me by referring to "Crying Wolf", since I often show how timeless parables and even childrens' stories explain otherwise indecipherable human behavior.  But you;re just trying to imitate me again.  Flattering, yes, but coming from you yet again, also annoying.  Let's add "copycat" to the daveS quiver of online trolling techniques.

    There IS NO LINK shown in my browser, nothing to click on, just the abbreviated word "attch". 
    About as predictable and (not) impressive as your 4-second "blink-and-you-missed-it" videos.

    While I have since seen your photoshop montage of "Wubbo" (more wubbo-worship), in followup oosts that actually HD the image, it is a distraction, one more example of your shell-game technique of pretending to "win" arguments you start by changing the subject.

    The subject WAS, in light of mention of The Mona Lisa oil painting  by DaVinci,  your assertion that you know DaVinci, saying you practice the techniques of the old masters

    Seeing one more example of you trying to associate yourself with, or say you are better than, most if not all names recognized as great thinkers and doers, (Wright Brothers, DaVinci, Maxwell, Einstein, Betz, etc., etc., etc.) I saw one more opportunity to debunk your incessant nonsense and unsubstantiated bragging, and asked you to SHOW US AN EXAMPLE OF YOUR SUPPOSED DA VINCI-LIKE PAINTING TECHNIQUE.:

    Predictably, you are unable to show us any such thing.
    And you continue your shell-game technique of endless distraction and inability to stick with a topic.

    As usual, you have no answer, and try to change the subject, making any conversation with you as impossible as trying to grip a greased water-balloon.

    Thanks for showing us you can use photoshop, or cut-paste a roadrunner cartoon - my favorite.  Now that I'm located in the location that inspired Roadrunner cartoons (Mojave Desert) we see roadrunners and coyotes all the time.  Never seen a coyote chasing a roadrunner though...  And coyotes are still working on mastering mail-ordering anvils from Acme - the problem seems to be a lack of brains and working fingers.  Maybe you have the same problem preventing you from making any power in 12 years of supposed cutting-edge wind energy research.

    I guess we will never be privileged to see your great works of art comparable to DaVinci, any more than we'll ever see your wind energy systems that beat the Betz coefficient, or that even move the needle on a power-meter.  Dsappointing, but, by this point, 100% predictable.



    ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

    http://www.energykitesystems.net/DaveSantos/wubbounderground.jpg



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    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27409 From: dave santos Date: 7/14/2019
    Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art
    Attachments :

      Doug has never been able to prove any "lie" on the AWES Forum, but can't stop hoping-

      This is egg-oil tempera from paints I made myself during collaboration with leading art conservators in the US and Mexico, but its not AWE art like the Wubbo image.

      Inline image




       

      Doug,

      You have been crying wolf for years about "Professor Crackpots", and accusations of fake sources, like the art you guessed wrong did not exist just because you could not find the attachment and could not wait a day or two for someone to help out.

      We hold open the possibility you could be right someday in this sort of paranoia, with documentable proof. You had wrongly thought the "cry wolf" story lesson was that selected AWE claims that lapse prove nothing will ever happen.

      On ‎Sunday‎, ‎July‎ ‎14‎, ‎2019‎ ‎10‎:‎12‎:‎05‎ ‎AM‎ ‎CDT, dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


       

      Dear daveS:  Referring to your original message of July 12, 10:50 AM, there is nothing to click on.

      And I am flattered that you would copy me by referring to "Crying Wolf", since I often show how timeless parables and even childrens' stories explain otherwise indecipherable human behavior.  But you;re just trying to imitate me again.  Flattering, yes, but coming from you yet again, also annoying.  Let's add "copycat" to the daveS quiver of online trolling techniques.

      There IS NO LINK shown in my browser, nothing to click on, just the abbreviated word "attch". 
      About as predictable and (not) impressive as your 4-second "blink-and-you-missed-it" videos.

      While I have since seen your photoshop montage of "Wubbo" (more wubbo-worship), in followup oosts that actually HD the image, it is a distraction, one more example of your shell-game technique of pretending to "win" arguments you start by changing the subject.

      The subject WAS, in light of mention of The Mona Lisa oil painting  by DaVinci,  your assertion that you know DaVinci, saying you practice the techniques of the old masters

      Seeing one more example of you trying to associate yourself with, or say you are better than, most if not all names recognized as great thinkers and doers, (Wright Brothers, DaVinci, Maxwell, Einstein, Betz, etc., etc., etc.) I saw one more opportunity to debunk your incessant nonsense and unsubstantiated bragging, and asked you to SHOW US AN EXAMPLE OF YOUR SUPPOSED DA VINCI-LIKE PAINTING TECHNIQUE.:

      Predictably, you are unable to show us any such thing.
      And you continue your shell-game technique of endless distraction and inability to stick with a topic.

      As usual, you have no answer, and try to change the subject, making any conversation with you as impossible as trying to grip a greased water-balloon.

      Thanks for showing us you can use photoshop, or cut-paste a roadrunner cartoon - my favorite.  Now that I'm located in the location that inspired Roadrunner cartoons (Mojave Desert) we see roadrunners and coyotes all the time.  Never seen a coyote chasing a roadrunner though...  And coyotes are still working on mastering mail-ordering anvils from Acme - the problem seems to be a lack of brains and working fingers.  Maybe you have the same problem preventing you from making any power in 12 years of supposed cutting-edge wind energy research.

      I guess we will never be privileged to see your great works of art comparable to DaVinci, any more than we'll ever see your wind energy systems that beat the Betz coefficient, or that even move the needle on a power-meter.  Dsappointing, but, by this point, 100% predictable.



      ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

      http://www.energykitesystems.net/DaveSantos/wubbounderground.jpg



      ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27410 From: dave santos Date: 7/14/2019
      Subject: Re: The New Selsam Rotor, (The Dougley McRotor)
      Thanks Doug, looks like a good DIY kite toy basis.



       

      Hi Guys

      I was just thinking how much like, well, you know, The Wright Brothers, Da Vinci, Maxwell, Einstein, Peter Sharp, etc. I must be, due to my "cutting-edge wind energy research" (at Walmart, just yesterday), where I spent 3 seconds "developing" "The Selsam Rotor".  Similar to a Sharp Rotor, my version has 5 lobes (blades?) instead of just 3.  A 60% improvement!!!  I'm including a picture. This is cutting-edge, and will change the face of wind energy forever.  Move over Einstein and DaVinci (Oh and don't forget "Santos") - Doug Selsam is "in the house".  (Cuz its too hot to go outside, and too many coyotes).


      Notice the "attachment" - you can actually click on it and see the image - first try!

      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27411 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/14/2019
      Subject: Re: The New Selsam Rotor, (The Dougley McRotor)
      Five lobes (blades)! One for Einstein, one other for Leonardo da Vinci, one other for Alberto Santos-Dumont, one for Betz, and one for Dave. 
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27412 From: dougselsam Date: 7/14/2019
      Subject: Re: The New Selsam Rotor, (The Dougley McRotor)
      Attachments :
        OK I do not see a link when I clicked on my own message, even though I "attached"  file which appeared in the message before I clicked "send".
        I guess this is one more instance of the sketchy fuctionality of the Yahoo Groups format.
        Supposedly it is "attached" to this message too - let's see if it shows up.


        ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <dougselsam@...
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27413 From: dave santos Date: 7/14/2019
        Subject: Re: The New Selsam Rotor, (The Dougley McRotor)
        Yet you falsely accused in paranoid fashion. Pierre similarly imagined he was censored during a service lapse that affected many of us.

        Developing AWE has nothing to do with suspecting others of bad will.



         

        OK I do not see a link when I clicked on my own message, even though I "attached"  file which appeared in the message before I clicked "send".
        I guess this is one more instance of the sketchy fuctionality of the Yahoo Groups format.
        Supposedly it is "attached" to this message too - let's see if it shows up.


        ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <dougselsam@...
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27414 From: dougselsam Date: 7/14/2019
        Subject: Re: The New Selsam Rotor, (The Dougley McRotor)
        Guys sorry I have to give up on this format.
        I've tried two computers and can see no image links from anyone including myself.
        Gotta move and get something done today.
        Glad to see others have been able to see my attached image - I cannot.
        Thought it might be an ad-blocker or something but even an old computer won't pull up the images.
        Sorry about that.
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27415 From: dave santos Date: 7/14/2019
        Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art
        Doug, do you see the Old Master's technique example? I was rather young in the self-portrait. Lately I have transposed Old Master techniques to ceramic painting for outdoor public art, very challenging since the colors change on firing. 

        Pierre, Van Cliburn was piano teacher to my family on father's side, but both sides played; my Mexican grandmother played classic canon by ear alone. European culture we get, but the reverse direction, like EU mastery of Mexican culture, is less seen. Its mostly a one-way street.

        One can't fly kites and research AWE all the time without burn-out, nor do much without varied skills. Study the Wright Brother's family culture.




         

        Copycat - come up with your own theme.  The Boy Who Cried Wolf refers to the "false-news-of-the-future" and how many times people like you will fall for it.  "The Emperor's New Clothes" refers to how even a little kid can sometimes see newly-entrenched yet suspiciously unverifiable paradigms as invalid.

        The art I guessed doesn't exist was never a photoshop cut-paste (that was your shell game again), it was your claimed paintings in the style of the old masters whereby you "knew" daVinci, attempting more self-glorification. You tried to substitute an unrelated photoshop cut-paste, but initially didn't provide a working link even for that.


        ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

        Dear daveS:  Referring to your original message of July 12, 10:50 AM, there is nothing to click on.

        And I am flattered that you would copy me by referring to "Crying Wolf", since I often show how timeless parables and even childrens' stories explain otherwise indecipherable human behavior.  But you;re just trying to imitate me again.  Flattering, yes, but coming from you yet again, also annoying.  Let's add "copycat" to the daveS quiver of online trolling techniques.

        There IS NO LINK shown in my browser, nothing to click on, just the abbreviated word "attch". 
        About as predictable and (not) impressive as your 4-second "blink-and-you-missed-it" videos.

        While I have since seen your photoshop montage of "Wubbo" (more wubbo-worship), in followup oosts that actually HD the image, it is a distraction, one more example of your shell-game technique of pretending to "win" arguments you start by changing the subject.

        The subject WAS, in light of mention of The Mona Lisa oil painting  by DaVinci,  your assertion that you know DaVinci, saying you practice the techniques of the old masters

        Seeing one more example of you trying to associate yourself with, or say you are better than, most if not all names recognized as great thinkers and doers, (Wright Brothers, DaVinci, Maxwell, Einstein, Betz, etc., etc., etc.) I saw one more opportunity to debunk your incessant nonsense and unsubstantiated bragging, and asked you to SHOW US AN EXAMPLE OF YOUR SUPPOSED DA VINCI-LIKE PAINTING TECHNIQUE.:

        Predictably, you are unable to show us any such thing.
        And you continue your shell-game technique of endless distraction and inability to stick with a topic.

        As usual, you have no answer, and try to change the subject, making any conversation with you as impossible as trying to grip a greased water-balloon.

        Thanks for showing us you can use photoshop, or cut-paste a roadrunner cartoon - my favorite.  Now that I'm located in the location that inspired Roadrunner cartoons (Mojave Desert) we see roadrunners and coyotes all the time.  Never seen a coyote chasing a roadrunner though...  And coyotes are still working on mastering mail-ordering anvils from Acme - the problem seems to be a lack of brains and working fingers.  Maybe you have the same problem preventing you from making any power in 12 years of supposed cutting-edge wind energy research.

        I guess we will never be privileged to see your great works of art comparable to DaVinci, any more than we'll ever see your wind energy systems that beat the Betz coefficient, or that even move the needle on a power-meter.  Dsappointing, but, by this point, 100% predictable.



        ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

        http://www.energykitesystems.net/DaveSantos/wubbounderground.jpg



        ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27416 From: dave santos Date: 7/14/2019
        Subject: Re: The New Selsam Rotor, (The Dougley McRotor)
        Never accuse without a high standard of evidence (See Rules of Evidence).



         

        Guys sorry I have to give up on this format.
        I've tried two computers and can see no image links from anyone including myself.
        Gotta move and get something done today.
        Glad to see others have been able to see my attached image - I cannot.
        Thought it might be an ad-blocker or something but even an old computer won't pull up the images.
        Sorry about that.
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27417 From: dougselsam Date: 7/14/2019
        Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art
        daveS: There have been plenty of instances where several people have protested your dubious statements even to the point of calling you a liar.  I do not remember anyone calling anyone else, besides you, a liar on this forum.  Coincidence? 

        The problem we seem to be having today is the limited sporadic functionality of the Yahoo Groups format, possibly including browser issues and settings, where "search" and "attach" do not always work very well, at least not consistently.  Thanks for attaching your images.  I saw the Wubbo one - not bad.  Could appear in a future compendium of crackpot wind energy never-built-yet-highly-publicized ideas, and substitute outright dead-ends.  Have yet to see the old masters style paintings.  Maybe Joe can find a way to make them visible as he did with your wubbo cut-paste photoshop image.


        ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

        Doug,

        You have been crying wolf for years about "Professor Crackpots", and accusations of fake sources, like the art you guessed wrong did not exist just because you could not find the attachment and could not wait a day or two for someone to help out.

        We hold open the possibility you could be right someday in this sort of paranoia, with documentable proof. You had wrongly thought the "cry wolf" story lesson was that selected AWE claims that lapse prove nothing will ever happen.

        On ‎Sunday‎, ‎July‎ ‎14‎, ‎2019‎ ‎10‎:‎12‎:‎05‎ ‎AM‎ ‎CDT, dougselsam@... [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  

        Dear daveS:  Referring to your original message of July 12, 10:50 AM, there is nothing to click on.

        And I am flattered that you would copy me by referring to "Crying Wolf", since I often show how timeless parables and even childrens' stories explain otherwise indecipherable human behavior.  But you;re just trying to imitate me again.  Flattering, yes, but coming from you yet again, also annoying.  Let's add "copycat" to the daveS quiver of online trolling techniques.

        There IS NO LINK shown in my browser, nothing to click on, just the abbreviated word "attch". 
        About as predictable and (not) impressive as your 4-second "blink-and-you-missed-it" videos.

        While I have since seen your photoshop montage of "Wubbo" (more wubbo-worship), in followup oosts that actually HD the image, it is a distraction, one more example of your shell-game technique of pretending to "win" arguments you start by changing the subject.

        The subject WAS, in light of mention of The Mona Lisa oil painting  by DaVinci,  your assertion that you know DaVinci, saying you practice the techniques of the old masters

        Seeing one more example of you trying to associate yourself with, or say you are better than, most if not all names recognized as great thinkers and doers, (Wright Brothers, DaVinci, Maxwell, Einstein, Betz, etc., etc., etc.) I saw one more opportunity to debunk your incessant nonsense and unsubstantiated bragging, and asked you to SHOW US AN EXAMPLE OF YOUR SUPPOSED DA VINCI-LIKE PAINTING TECHNIQUE.:

        Predictably, you are unable to show us any such thing.
        And you continue your shell-game technique of endless distraction and inability to stick with a topic.

        As usual, you have no answer, and try to change the subject, making any conversation with you as impossible as trying to grip a greased water-balloon.

        Thanks for showing us you can use photoshop, or cut-paste a roadrunner cartoon - my favorite.  Now that I'm located in the location that inspired Roadrunner cartoons (Mojave Desert) we see roadrunners and coyotes all the time.  Never seen a coyote chasing a roadrunner though...  And coyotes are still working on mastering mail-ordering anvils from Acme - the problem seems to be a lack of brains and working fingers.  Maybe you have the same problem preventing you from making any power in 12 years of supposed cutting-edge wind energy research.

        I guess we will never be privileged to see your great works of art comparable to DaVinci, any more than we'll ever see your wind energy systems that beat the Betz coefficient, or that even move the needle on a power-meter.  Dsappointing, but, by this point, 100% predictable.



        ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

        http://www.energykitesystems.net/DaveSantos/wubbounderground.jpg



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        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27418 From: dave santos Date: 7/14/2019
        Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art
        Attachments :
          Trying again both with inline paste and attachement-

          Inline image





           

          daveS: There have been plenty of instances where several people have protested your dubious statements even to the point of calling you a liar.  I do not remember anyone calling anyone else, besides you, a liar on this forum.  Coincidence? 

          The problem we seem to be having today is the limited sporadic functionality of the Yahoo Groups format, possibly including browser issues and settings, where "search" and "attach" do not always work very well, at least not consistently.  Thanks for attaching your images.  I saw the Wubbo one - not bad.  Could appear in a future compendium of crackpot wind energy never-built-yet-highly-publicized ideas, and substitute outright dead-ends.  Have yet to see the old masters style paintings.  Maybe Joe can find a way to make them visible as he did with your wubbo cut-paste photoshop image.


          ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

          Doug,

          You have been crying wolf for years about "Professor Crackpots", and accusations of fake sources, like the art you guessed wrong did not exist just because you could not find the attachment and could not wait a day or two for someone to help out.

          We hold open the possibility you could be right someday in this sort of paranoia, with documentable proof. You had wrongly thought the "cry wolf" story lesson was that selected AWE claims that lapse prove nothing will ever happen.

          On ‎Sunday‎, ‎July‎ ‎14‎, ‎2019‎ ‎10‎:‎12‎:‎05‎ ‎AM‎ ‎CDT, dougselsam@... [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  

          Dear daveS:  Referring to your original message of July 12, 10:50 AM, there is nothing to click on.

          And I am flattered that you would copy me by referring to "Crying Wolf", since I often show how timeless parables and even childrens' stories explain otherwise indecipherable human behavior.  But you;re just trying to imitate me again.  Flattering, yes, but coming from you yet again, also annoying.  Let's add "copycat" to the daveS quiver of online trolling techniques.

          There IS NO LINK shown in my browser, nothing to click on, just the abbreviated word "attch". 
          About as predictable and (not) impressive as your 4-second "blink-and-you-missed-it" videos.

          While I have since seen your photoshop montage of "Wubbo" (more wubbo-worship), in followup oosts that actually HD the image, it is a distraction, one more example of your shell-game technique of pretending to "win" arguments you start by changing the subject.

          The subject WAS, in light of mention of The Mona Lisa oil painting  by DaVinci,  your assertion that you know DaVinci, saying you practice the techniques of the old masters

          Seeing one more example of you trying to associate yourself with, or say you are better than, most if not all names recognized as great thinkers and doers, (Wright Brothers, DaVinci, Maxwell, Einstein, Betz, etc., etc., etc.) I saw one more opportunity to debunk your incessant nonsense and unsubstantiated bragging, and asked you to SHOW US AN EXAMPLE OF YOUR SUPPOSED DA VINCI-LIKE PAINTING TECHNIQUE.:

          Predictably, you are unable to show us any such thing.
          And you continue your shell-game technique of endless distraction and inability to stick with a topic.

          As usual, you have no answer, and try to change the subject, making any conversation with you as impossible as trying to grip a greased water-balloon.

          Thanks for showing us you can use photoshop, or cut-paste a roadrunner cartoon - my favorite.  Now that I'm located in the location that inspired Roadrunner cartoons (Mojave Desert) we see roadrunners and coyotes all the time.  Never seen a coyote chasing a roadrunner though...  And coyotes are still working on mastering mail-ordering anvils from Acme - the problem seems to be a lack of brains and working fingers.  Maybe you have the same problem preventing you from making any power in 12 years of supposed cutting-edge wind energy research.

          I guess we will never be privileged to see your great works of art comparable to DaVinci, any more than we'll ever see your wind energy systems that beat the Betz coefficient, or that even move the needle on a power-meter.  Dsappointing, but, by this point, 100% predictable.



          ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

          http://www.energykitesystems.net/DaveSantos/wubbounderground.jpg



          ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27419 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/14/2019
          Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art


          Indeed Van Cliburn was a great and famous pianist. Hi won the first prize in Tchaikovsky Competition in Moscow in 1958, during Cold War. Then a world-class international piano competition was created in Forth Worth, taking his name.
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27420 From: dave santos Date: 7/14/2019
          Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art
          Van Cliburn himself should have boycotted playing at any AWE conference with John Oyebanji slighted.



           



          Indeed Van Cliburn was a great and famous pianist. Hi won the first prize in Tchaikovsky Competition in Moscow in 1958, during Cold War. Then a world-class international piano competition was created in Forth Worth, taking his name.
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27421 From: dougselsam Date: 7/14/2019
          Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art
          Anyone worldwide who wears the finest cotton (Peru), likes vanilla or chocolate, eats pumpkins, tomatoes, potatoes, tobacco, hot peppers, and a myriad of foods we now take for granted, plays team sports, enjoys representative democracy government, and enough things to fill a book, has enjoyed precolumbian culture from the new world, mostly from Mexico, but also from all over the new world.  Quetzocoatal and the resulting Atlan civilization slowly declined over the years until sailors from other lands were once again able to easily penetrate, and this time bring the contributions of Atlantis to the rest of the world.  Everyone worldwide enjoys Mexican culture, they just don't know it came from Mexico.  What are the chances both Vanilla AND chocolate would come from the same place?  Imagine a world without chocolate, vanilla, tomatoes, potatoes, or tobacco.  Most people are aware that tobacco came from America, but few realize that the very concept of smoking ANYTHING (as in a pipe or cigar etc.) came from the new world.  It wasn't til after Columbus that people smoked even opium or hashish.  Before that, they were simply eaten.  Once people began smoking, death from cigarettes, the Opium Wars, crack-heads, and a lot of other detrimental developments were made possible, in addition to harmless things like enjoying pumpkins and tomatoes.  Well then again, even tomatoes were once seen as hazardous,"of the devil", with the death penalty for eating one.  Originally called TomATL, like so many words from ancient Atlantis, the name includes ATL or ATLAN.  Think "MazATLAN".

          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27422 From: dave santos Date: 7/14/2019
          Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art
          Doug,

          You don't see the Old Master painting example yet? Not even in-line?



           

          Anyone worldwide who wears the finest cotton (Peru), likes vanilla or chocolate, eats pumpkins, tomatoes, potatoes, tobacco, hot peppers, and a myriad of foods we now take for granted, plays team sports, enjoys representative democracy government, and enough things to fill a book, has enjoyed precolumbian culture from the new world, mostly from Mexico, but also from all over the new world.  Quetzocoatal and the resulting Atlan civilization slowly declined over the years until sailors from other lands were once again able to easily penetrate, and this time bring the contributions of Atlantis to the rest of the world.  Everyone worldwide enjoys Mexican culture, they just don't know it came from Mexico.  What are the chances both Vanilla AND chocolate would come from the same place?  Imagine a world without chocolate, vanilla, tomatoes, potatoes, or tobacco.  Most people are aware that tobacco came from America, but few realize that the very concept of smoking ANYTHING (as in a pipe or cigar etc.) came from the new world.  It wasn't til after Columbus that people smoked even opium or hashish.  Before that, they were simply eaten.  Once people began smoking, death from cigarettes, the Opium Wars, crack-heads, and a lot of other detrimental developments were made possible, in addition to harmless things like enjoying pumpkins and tomatoes.  Well then again, even tomatoes were once seen as hazardous,"of the devil", with the death penalty for eating one.  Originally called TomATL, like so many words from ancient Atlantis, the name includes ATL or ATLAN.  Think "MazATLAN".

          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27423 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/14/2019
          Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art
          Santos, you don't know Van Cliburn. You are not Van Cliburn. You don't know Einstein, you are not Einstein.  You don't know Betz' law, you are not Betz. 
          You are only someone often censoring others like me on your forum for saying truths not good to say about you
          You accuse me incessantly for the same without any prove, blaming your fault on others as usual. I didn't know and I didn't care about if yes or no you were rejected from some AWE organization of which AWEC Berlin. It is your affair, not mine, not even John Oyebanji's excepted if  your behaviour has led to his possible exclusion related to yours and by your fault.
          And please stop to speak in the place of famous persons.
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27424 From: dougselsam Date: 7/14/2019
          Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art
          Thanks for trying again.  I still see no link in spite of multiple attempts from both of us to insert an image today.  I'm puzzled that I could attach an image and see it a couple of days ago but not today.  Firefox "updated" itself again yesterday, without my input, but even a very old computer here, with old software, will also not pull up recently attached images for me today.  Computers - saving us time, as usual...


          ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

          daveS: There have been plenty of instances where several people have protested your dubious statements even to the point of calling you a liar.  I do not remember anyone calling anyone else, besides you, a liar on this forum.  Coincidence? 

          The problem we seem to be having today is the limited sporadic functionality of the Yahoo Groups format, possibly including browser issues and settings, where "search" and "attach" do not always work very well, at least not consistently.  Thanks for attaching your images.  I saw the Wubbo one - not bad.  Could appear in a future compendium of crackpot wind energy never-built-yet-highly-publicized ideas, and substitute outright dead-ends.  Have yet to see the old masters style paintings.  Maybe Joe can find a way to make them visible as he did with your wubbo cut-paste photoshop image.


          ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

          Doug,

          You have been crying wolf for years about "Professor Crackpots", and accusations of fake sources, like the art you guessed wrong did not exist just because you could not find the attachment and could not wait a day or two for someone to help out.

          We hold open the possibility you could be right someday in this sort of paranoia, with documentable proof. You had wrongly thought the "cry wolf" story lesson was that selected AWE claims that lapse prove nothing will ever happen.

          On ‎Sunday‎, ‎July‎ ‎14‎, ‎2019‎ ‎10‎:‎12‎:‎05‎ ‎AM‎ ‎CDT, dougselsam@... [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  

          Dear daveS:  Referring to your original message of July 12, 10:50 AM, there is nothing to click on.

          And I am flattered that you would copy me by referring to "Crying Wolf", since I often show how timeless parables and even childrens' stories explain otherwise indecipherable human behavior.  But you;re just trying to imitate me again.  Flattering, yes, but coming from you yet again, also annoying.  Let's add "copycat" to the daveS quiver of online trolling techniques.

          There IS NO LINK shown in my browser, nothing to click on, just the abbreviated word "attch". 
          About as predictable and (not) impressive as your 4-second "blink-and-you-missed-it" videos.

          While I have since seen your photoshop montage of "Wubbo" (more wubbo-worship), in followup oosts that actually HD the image, it is a distraction, one more example of your shell-game technique of pretending to "win" arguments you start by changing the subject.

          The subject WAS, in light of mention of The Mona Lisa oil painting  by DaVinci,  your assertion that you know DaVinci, saying you practice the techniques of the old masters

          Seeing one more example of you trying to associate yourself with, or say you are better than, most if not all names recognized as great thinkers and doers, (Wright Brothers, DaVinci, Maxwell, Einstein, Betz, etc., etc., etc.) I saw one more opportunity to debunk your incessant nonsense and unsubstantiated bragging, and asked you to SHOW US AN EXAMPLE OF YOUR SUPPOSED DA VINCI-LIKE PAINTING TECHNIQUE.:

          Predictably, you are unable to show us any such thing.
          And you continue your shell-game technique of endless distraction and inability to stick with a topic.

          As usual, you have no answer, and try to change the subject, making any conversation with you as impossible as trying to grip a greased water-balloon.

          Thanks for showing us you can use photoshop, or cut-paste a roadrunner cartoon - my favorite.  Now that I'm located in the location that inspired Roadrunner cartoons (Mojave Desert) we see roadrunners and coyotes all the time.  Never seen a coyote chasing a roadrunner though...  And coyotes are still working on mastering mail-ordering anvils from Acme - the problem seems to be a lack of brains and working fingers.  Maybe you have the same problem preventing you from making any power in 12 years of supposed cutting-edge wind energy research.

          I guess we will never be privileged to see your great works of art comparable to DaVinci, any more than we'll ever see your wind energy systems that beat the Betz coefficient, or that even move the needle on a power-meter.  Dsappointing, but, by this point, 100% predictable.



          ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

          http://www.energykitesystems.net/DaveSantos/wubbounderground.jpg



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          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27425 From: dougselsam Date: 7/14/2019
          Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art
          Amazingly, no I see no recent images today.
          Firefox is now bragging about "content blocking" after an unwanted "update" yesterday.
          I just even tried Internet Explorer - same thing.
          But I CAN see the EnergyKiteSystems JPG image of your wubbo collage JPG JoeF supplied - thanks JoeF.


          ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

          Anyone worldwide who wears the finest cotton (Peru), likes vanilla or chocolate, eats pumpkins, tomatoes, potatoes, tobacco, hot peppers, and a myriad of foods we now take for granted, plays team sports, enjoys representative democracy government, and enough things to fill a book, has enjoyed precolumbian culture from the new world, mostly from Mexico, but also from all over the new world.  Quetzocoatal and the resulting Atlan civilization slowly declined over the years until sailors from other lands were once again able to easily penetrate, and this time bring the contributions of Atlantis to the rest of the world.  Everyone worldwide enjoys Mexican culture, they just don't know it came from Mexico.  What are the chances both Vanilla AND chocolate would come from the same place?  Imagine a world without chocolate, vanilla, tomatoes, potatoes, or tobacco.  Most people are aware that tobacco came from America, but few realize that the very concept of smoking ANYTHING (as in a pipe or cigar etc.) came from the new world.  It wasn't til after Columbus that people smoked even opium or hashish.  Before that, they were simply eaten.  Once people began smoking, death from cigarettes, the Opium Wars, crack-heads, and a lot of other detrimental developments were made possible, in addition to harmless things like enjoying pumpkins and tomatoes.  Well then again, even tomatoes were once seen as hazardous,"of the devil", with the death penalty for eating one.  Originally called TomATL, like so many words from ancient Atlantis, the name includes ATL or ATLAN.  Think "MazATLAN".

          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27426 From: dave santos Date: 7/14/2019
          Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art
          I was a bit young or not even born when van Cliburn home-taught my uncle, but I did grow up with the music as taught from my uncle's Steinway. Did you know van Cliburne? My Old Master's technique does have the benefit of a lot of surface-coating science Leonardo did not have access to, so the paint should hold up better. You did not know Leonardo either, but we did review his DS material together.

          Doug is a shaky source of factual knowledge in many dimensions-

          "pipes thought to have been used to smoke cannabis dated to the 10th to 12th centuries found in Southeastern Africa", not to mention Greeks huffing psychoactive smoke from braziers.

          Eating a tomato is not the same as domesticating it. Mesoamerican genius is in the creation of so many modern domesticates, not, say, vanilla ice cream, an EU adaptation.

          AWE will have its Mexican contributions as well, like RogelioL's fine work.


           

          Thanks for trying again.  I still see no link in spite of multiple attempts from both of us to insert an image today.  I'm puzzled that I could attach an image and see it a couple of days ago but not today.  Firefox "updated" itself again yesterday, without my input, but even a very old computer here, with old software, will also not pull up recently attached images for me today.  Computers - saving us time, as usual...



          ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

          daveS: There have been plenty of instances where several people have protested your dubious statements even to the point of calling you a liar.  I do not remember anyone calling anyone else, besides you, a liar on this forum.  Coincidence? 

          The problem we seem to be having today is the limited sporadic functionality of the Yahoo Groups format, possibly including browser issues and settings, where "search" and "attach" do not always work very well, at least not consistently.  Thanks for attaching your images.  I saw the Wubbo one - not bad.  Could appear in a future compendium of crackpot wind energy never-built-yet-highly-publicized ideas, and substitute outright dead-ends.  Have yet to see the old masters style paintings.  Maybe Joe can find a way to make them visible as he did with your wubbo cut-paste photoshop image.


          ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

          Doug,

          You have been crying wolf for years about "Professor Crackpots", and accusations of fake sources, like the art you guessed wrong did not exist just because you could not find the attachment and could not wait a day or two for someone to help out.

          We hold open the possibility you could be right someday in this sort of paranoia, with documentable proof. You had wrongly thought the "cry wolf" story lesson was that selected AWE claims that lapse prove nothing will ever happen.

          On ‎Sunday‎, ‎July‎ ‎14‎, ‎2019‎ ‎10‎:‎12‎:‎05‎ ‎AM‎ ‎CDT, dougselsam@... [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  

          Dear daveS:  Referring to your original message of July 12, 10:50 AM, there is nothing to click on.

          And I am flattered that you would copy me by referring to "Crying Wolf", since I often show how timeless parables and even childrens' stories explain otherwise indecipherable human behavior.  But you;re just trying to imitate me again.  Flattering, yes, but coming from you yet again, also annoying.  Let's add "copycat" to the daveS quiver of online trolling techniques.

          There IS NO LINK shown in my browser, nothing to click on, just the abbreviated word "attch". 
          About as predictable and (not) impressive as your 4-second "blink-and-you-missed-it" videos.

          While I have since seen your photoshop montage of "Wubbo" (more wubbo-worship), in followup oosts that actually HD the image, it is a distraction, one more example of your shell-game technique of pretending to "win" arguments you start by changing the subject.

          The subject WAS, in light of mention of The Mona Lisa oil painting  by DaVinci,  your assertion that you know DaVinci, saying you practice the techniques of the old masters

          Seeing one more example of you trying to associate yourself with, or say you are better than, most if not all names recognized as great thinkers and doers, (Wright Brothers, DaVinci, Maxwell, Einstein, Betz, etc., etc., etc.) I saw one more opportunity to debunk your incessant nonsense and unsubstantiated bragging, and asked you to SHOW US AN EXAMPLE OF YOUR SUPPOSED DA VINCI-LIKE PAINTING TECHNIQUE.:

          Predictably, you are unable to show us any such thing.
          And you continue your shell-game technique of endless distraction and inability to stick with a topic.

          As usual, you have no answer, and try to change the subject, making any conversation with you as impossible as trying to grip a greased water-balloon.

          Thanks for showing us you can use photoshop, or cut-paste a roadrunner cartoon - my favorite.  Now that I'm located in the location that inspired Roadrunner cartoons (Mojave Desert) we see roadrunners and coyotes all the time.  Never seen a coyote chasing a roadrunner though...  And coyotes are still working on mastering mail-ordering anvils from Acme - the problem seems to be a lack of brains and working fingers.  Maybe you have the same problem preventing you from making any power in 12 years of supposed cutting-edge wind energy research.

          I guess we will never be privileged to see your great works of art comparable to DaVinci, any more than we'll ever see your wind energy systems that beat the Betz coefficient, or that even move the needle on a power-meter.  Dsappointing, but, by this point, 100% predictable.



          ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

          http://www.energykitesystems.net/DaveSantos/wubbounderground.jpg



          ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27427 From: dave santos Date: 7/14/2019
          Subject: Re: Cyclic-Porosity Sails?
          Elastic flaps that dump excess wind seem to be the best current art. 

          Classic parafoils with Sutton Holes could be updated by elastic passive-dynamic holes that stay closed in low wind and only open and dump pressure in high. That's a nice latest kite art deliverable from this topic.

          Mothra tarp kixels dump wind progressively by aft Nylon lines that stretch with comparatively non-stretch Polyester fore lines. That's bulk cyclic-porosity.

          The elasticity itself stores surge energy and returns it afterwards.






           

          Cyclic-Porosity Sails?    (CPS)

          Controlled permeability?  Cyclic-permeable sails?   

          ================

          Discussants are invited over time to advance cyclic-porosity sails (CPS) with AWE in sight. 

          Maybe let "CPS" face porosity and permeability issues?

          ================

          Short- or long-period cycles?

          Open pores: wind or water passes through CPS more easily. 

          Closed pores: wind or water does not pass through CPS. 

          During closed pores: increase the conversion of media kinetic energy. 

          During open pores: let resetting of working lines. 

          Trigger closing of pores by various means: light, electricity, mechanical vibrations, mechanical means, chemical means, sound means, temperature changes, flow changes, threshold triggering, timing, pressure, aversion, magnetics, bi-mesh translation, bi-mesh rotations, moisture, evaporation, closure by rotation, closure by translation, flaps, gates, inflation-deflation gating, zippers, zip-locking, static, tension variations, blockage,  ...

          How to use CPS in AWES? 

          Tests? Experimental results?

          ================

          open-close holes

          aperture 

          gaps

          slits

          ==============================================

          tags: 

          pore, pores, porosity, cycles, pumping, kite covers, sails, fabrics, 

          pressure-release, over pressure, limits, non-unobtainium, permeability, close-open, pinching, relaxing, shrinking, contraction, muscles, porosimetry, air permeability, active fabrics, cyclic permeability, variable porosity, shape alternation, variable geometry, on-off, passive control, active control, variable ventilation, pulsating, pulsing, transient, moisture, evaporation, overlap moire effect, moiré (“mwah-ray”) or interference patterns, de-powering, 

          =======================

          Teaser:

          http://www.energykitesystems.net/CyclicPorositySails/CyclicPorositySails001.jpg

          =======================

          Some teasing items: 


          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27428 From: dave santos Date: 7/14/2019
          Subject: Re: Windvogel quasiAWE wins EU Lighting Award
          Would be a nice addition to AWEfest events. AWE or not, one of TUD's better collaborations.

          Seeing endless LED kite effects from China Market at rock-bottom prices. One could commission the totally gung-ho Weifang Kite World to make whatever sort of custom display wanted.

          Ray Luna with kPower may be first to have flown electroluminescent fiber by means of kites at Ambient Camping AWEfest experiments on the Texas Coast. Our lights looked a lot crazier with all the varied light effects in the sky. We were using KiteSat for driving a few lights and charging phones one-by-one as well, so some AWE power at work. Some would not fly their precious phones, others eagerly wanted to, if only because their batteries were low after days at the beach.

          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27429 From: dave santos Date: 7/14/2019
          Subject: AWEIA back in the picture
          AWEIA (AWE Industry Association) pioneered AWE safety and professional ethics R&D as the logical role of an Industry Association. With the recent mishap investigation, which will lead back to key ethical issues on the part of the insiders, AWEIA is back on merits, and could be rebuilt and grow from there. AWEIA commissioned both TACO and a Code of Ethics. Those documents are the foundation to rebuild on. TACO is overdue for an update, and the recent mishap will be an ideal source of vital material.

          John Oyebanji is an unsung hero for carrying on AWEIA's founding director for so many years, unfunded, while AWE playboys partied and got rich on venture capital. AWEC usurped the leadership role to engage in unfair business practices and neglect safety culture development. Wubbo championed AWEIA from the start, but after he passed, no one in the AWEC circle cared, and JohnO was snubbed from conference planning and participation.

          Please help AWE have an effective professional association. The FAA, investors, and public stakeholders all need an effective accountable professional industry.





          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27430 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/14/2019
          Subject: The winning AWE method(s)


          Hi all,


          After years of analysis, compilations, and testing, I am able to tell you if AWE can apply for large scale electricity generation, and which method(s) can prevail, and this before the end of 2019. I will also reveal the approximate time of implementation.

          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27431 From: dave santos Date: 7/14/2019
          Subject: Re: The winning AWE method(s)
          For context, we have the documented 2018 Maritime Engineering Industry and 2011 KiteLab/WoW projections, both pointing to the 2030 timeframe for industrial-scale AWE sea or land farm roll-out.

          KiteLab/WoW used a simplified Critical Path method with, based on a crude scatter-plot of peak power claims, and let the resulting calculated data curve make the projection, which seems to be holding. AWE estimates based on an unrealistically fast pace of aerospace innovation have mostly failed, and a few remaining guesses are coming due in ay ear or two, as documented here.

          Pierre, please be sure to explain just how you arrive at your own conclusion. You have in the past seemed to waiver in your estimations of whether AWE was even feasible, or perhaps a matter of applying your solutions.



           


          Hi all,


          After years of analysis, compilations, and testing, I am able to tell you if AWE can apply for large scale electricity generation, and which method(s) can prevail, and this before the end of 2019. I will also reveal the approximate time of implementation.

          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27432 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/14/2019
          Subject: Re: The winning AWE method(s)
          A little patience, you will have a simple and well-argued answer. Such an answer can be required as DaveS regularly failed to predict what will happen in AWE field, and that since 12 years. Remember that this forum was created for the fast development of high altitude wind energy. What is the AWE situation now? Is there any implementation by soon? No, after 12 years of erroneous predictions from (not only) DaveS. As these predictions were not realized, DaveS pushed back the estimated date of implementation. Now he pretends AWE will be for 2030 (I note that the "AWE" kiteboard use is rightly not taken into account, as we speak about utility-scale electricity generation). What justifications, what analysis drives him to advance such a time? Nothing.

          But the question is not DaveS' failure by itself. This failure enters a more global lack of relevant estimation, that by following the premise that there is a huge reservoir of wind power at high altitude, and flying wind turbines can capture it, then the subsequent assumption, escaping to DaveS' failure, that less material is used for power equivalent to HAWT, not taking into account the space used, despite the elements that I could communicate. The power/kite area ratio was the only criterion retained, as I advanced the power/space use ratio.

          But the most important is not yet here. I don't see any analysis of AWE among the energy mix, about what can be common with current HAWT, and what cannot. Particularly the intermittency concern is not taken account enough, and that for both solar and wind, even if a better capacity factor can be expected for AWE.

          As a result, our fears of a change in climate could certainly lead to the massive use of renewable, with the important restriction that this massive use could be postponed, leaving room for carbon-free energies to be controlled.


          All these points have to be analysed in order to obtain a valid AWE estimation.

          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27433 From: dave santos Date: 7/14/2019
          Subject: Re: The winning AWE method(s)
          Pierre, 2030 is fast for an aerospace revolution. You seem to have missed that RAD (Rapid AWE Development) is a goal not a prediction. ~2030 is the prediction.



           

          A little patience, you will have a simple and well-argued answer. Such an answer can be required as DaveS regularly failed to predict what will happen in AWE field, and that since 12 years. Remember that this forum was created for the fast development of high altitude wind energy. What is the AWE situation now? Is there any implementation by soon? No, after 12 years of erroneous predictions from (not only) DaveS. As these predictions were not realized, DaveS pushed back the estimated date of implementation. Now he pretends AWE will be for 2030 (I note that the "AWE" kiteboard use is rightly not taken into account, as we speak about utility-scale electricity generation). What justifications, what analysis drives him to advance such a time? Nothing.

          But the question is not DaveS' failure by itself. This failure enters a more global lack of relevant estimation, that by following the premise that there is a huge reservoir of wind power at high altitude, and flying wind turbines can capture it, then the subsequent assumption, escaping to DaveS' failure, that less material is used for power equivalent to HAWT, not taking into account the space used, despite the elements that I could communicate. The power/kite area ratio was the only criterion retained, as I advanced the power/space use ratio.

          But the most important is not yet here. I don't see any analysis of AWE among the energy mix, about what can be common with current HAWT, and what cannot. Particularly the intermittency concern is not taken account enough, and that for both solar and wind, even if a better capacity factor can be expected for AWE.

          As a result, our fears of a change in climate could certainly lead to the massive use of renewable, with the important restriction that this massive use could be postponed, leaving room for carbon-free energies to be controlled.


          All these points have to be analysed in order to obtain a valid AWE estimation.

          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27434 From: dave santos Date: 7/14/2019
          Subject: Re: Kiteboarding
          Fantastic Documentary. True children of the wind. 

          Clearly the Kite Smile was the beginning of Kite Stoke. "Visually Contagious", Sensually Addictive.

          Count on the power kite to deliver Utopian outcomes.



           

          UPWIND - Launch of a Sport - History of Kitesurfing

          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27435 From: dave santos Date: 7/14/2019
          Subject: Re: The winning AWE method(s)
          Here is the Forum Critical Path Analysis link of the calculations earlier in the year. Compare with all other predictions of that time-

          "the pioneering AWES R&D field is "taking-off" toward utility-scale power in the next decade. " which ends ~2030. Not bad, RAD.
          ‎Oct‎ ‎6‎, ‎2012 at ‎4‎:‎16‎ ‎PM
          The AWE Critical Path Analysis graph linked below is a definite indication that emerging AWE industry is progressing in a general way. One sees the predictive power of this method; how the pioneering AWES R&D field is "taking-off" toward utility-scale power in the next decade. Carlo Perassi and i started this analysis last year in Rome for WOW, and its worth updating every year or so. Peak Power demonstrated seemed like the single most predictive factor available. A far grander updated version is possible by adding the many missing data-points. Note the logarithmic peak-power and time scales used to reveal the general curve-






           

          Pierre, 2030 is fast for an aerospace revolution. You seem to have missed that RAD (Rapid AWE Development) is a goal not a prediction.. ~2030 is the prediction.

          On ‎Sunday‎, ‎July‎ ‎14‎, ‎2019‎ ‎04‎:‎57‎:‎56‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, pierre-benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


           

          A little patience, you will have a simple and well-argued answer. Such an answer can be required as DaveS regularly failed to predict what will happen in AWE field, and that since 12 years. Remember that this forum was created for the fast development of high altitude wind energy. What is the AWE situation now? Is there any implementation by soon? No, after 12 years of erroneous predictions from (not only) DaveS. As these predictions were not realized, DaveS pushed back the estimated date of implementation. Now he pretends AWE will be for 2030 (I note that the "AWE" kiteboard use is rightly not taken into account, as we speak about utility-scale electricity generation). What justifications, what analysis drives him to advance such a time? Nothing.

          But the question is not DaveS' failure by itself. This failure enters a more global lack of relevant estimation, that by following the premise that there is a huge reservoir of wind power at high altitude, and flying wind turbines can capture it, then the subsequent assumption, escaping to DaveS' failure, that less material is used for power equivalent to HAWT, not taking into account the space used, despite the elements that I could communicate. The power/kite area ratio was the only criterion retained, as I advanced the power/space use ratio.

          But the most important is not yet here. I don't see any analysis of AWE among the energy mix, about what can be common with current HAWT, and what cannot. Particularly the intermittency concern is not taken account enough, and that for both solar and wind, even if a better capacity factor can be expected for AWE.

          As a result, our fears of a change in climate could certainly lead to the massive use of renewable, with the important restriction that this massive use could be postponed, leaving room for carbon-free energies to be controlled.


          All these points have to be analysed in order to obtain a valid AWE estimation.

          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27436 From: dave santos Date: 7/14/2019
          Subject: Kite Psychology- Malaysian view of kite as wild child
          So true-

          "At the end of the day, relationship with adolescents is like playing a kite. Our string shouldn’t be too constricting or completely loose."




          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27437 From: dave santos Date: 7/14/2019
          Subject: Power Bol Architectures Continued- Flygen Ring Bol
          Attachments :
            Kite Bols or Crowns have the intriguing property of passively rotating around an anchor as wind veers. Imagine such a WECS at huge diameter. The late great marine engineer, Dr. Beaujean, conceived of a .5GW kite bol AWES, and PierreB has proposed a WheelWInd bol AWES, as covered in the past on this Forum.

            The novel idea offered here is to locate a ring of small flygens around the bol outlet. An extra lip of fabric and ram-air venturi structure could create an annular concentrator and diffuser geometry to augment flow maximally thru the flygen ring. Open-AWE_IP-Cloud

             A FlyGen Ring Bol this size could be a ~100kW AWES (does go airborne; look closely).

            Inline image


            Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27438 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/14/2019
            Subject: Re: Power Bol Architectures Continued- Flygen Ring Bol
            It is not clear of the steps being used by some with the aim to show inline photos.  I do not know if a local email program is being used or whether online signed-in posting editor is used. And then still it is not clear to me just how all such works or not with the attachment active editing button.  And there are other methods that might work or not.   
                 I just went to my email copy of DaveS' post; there I saw the photo while not seeing the photo at the online group showing.   I copied at email the "location" of the photo as the email saw things. Then I put such in a browser and found the photo. Then I made a TinyURL of the URL of the photo.    I now place that Tiny url here:

            using Chrome browser. 
            I want to see if the link works to let a participant see the photo. 
            Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27439 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/14/2019
            Subject: Re: Power Bol Architectures Continued- Flygen Ring Bol
            Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27440 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/14/2019
            Subject: Photo-In-message experiments for our group
            Attachments :

              tag: explore ways to put inline photos in message for this group. 

              Note: Sure methods have not be delineated by me. Maybe others may experiment.

              Note: Sending messages to the group using email program has its challenges. 

              Posting messages AT THE GROUP WHILE SIGNED INTO THE GROUP has its challenges. 

              Target: Delineate successful methods.  

              Note: Email programs and browsers may give specific challenges.

              ================================================

              Experiment #1: 

              I am using right now Chrome. 

              Signed into the group with my appropriate Yahoo identity. 

              Using the online posting editor. 

              I not see any button that lets me put an "inline" image. 

              I see an attachment button and an emoticon button, but no image-placement button. 

              So, I explore the online button for attachment.   The tool lets me serve my computer's files. I use the opportunity to search and find an image that is in my local computer.   I click the photo and press "open" in the local tool.  The images get attached and I see while editing online that a place holder shows in the composing window at the group's tool.    Now, I will press "Send" at the online tool and wait for the system to load this message.   I will then see if Chrome and Yahoo show the attachments in some manner, but I do not expect "inline" showing, but some active button.  The two chosen files might get listed in our group in accumulated "Attachments". 

              Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27441 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/14/2019
              Subject: Re: Photo-In-message experiments for our group
              RESULT of experiment #1
              My Chrome view online at the group did not show any attachment and did not indicated any attachment. 
              BUT in my email reception of the message, the two image files were attached and could be viewed locally using my email program. 


              Now, I will reverse the whole matter and do 
              Experiment #2. 
              I will go to my email program and send attachments to the group's address. 
              Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27442 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/14/2019
              Subject: Re: Photo-In-message experiments for our group
              Attachments :
                Experiment #2
                I am in my email program, Gmail. 
                I will choose my local email programs "attach files" tool 
                AND also a second action of using my email program's photo tool. 

                Attached effort concerns power-archDaveSantos2017May1.jpg    

                OnewayLoopArchDoubleGroundgen.png
                A drawing from on my computer was uploaded by Gmail tool. The drawing is showing in my editing process, but the image might not show online in group, even though hope is that it would.  A second phase question would be: does that drawing show in email copy received by members, even if online at-group the drawing might not show; will comment after sending. 
                Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27443 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/14/2019
                Subject: Re: Photo-In-message experiments for our group
                RESULT of Experiment #2
                The hoped-for inline photo from the Gmail sending did not show. And there was no blanki image placeholder for it. 

                The attached photo did not show, but a placeholder showed in the online group copy of the message. 

                HOWEVER, my email copy of the message FROM THE GROUP TOOL  did show the drawing inline and also had the attached photo.      

                So, guess is that email recipients are more likely to see both photos in their email, but not in the online view. 

                ================
                Now, I will go do another experiment. 
                Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27444 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/14/2019
                Subject: Re: Photo-In-message experiments for our group
                Experiment #3
                Aim to use a photo that had already been uploaded into the group's online "Photos" sector. 
                I chose a photo with the following URL.   I am in the group's online editor.   I truncated the found URL by trimming stuff after the shown number.     I guess the image will not show unless a reader online presses the link.   I will report online result and email copy result. 
                Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27445 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/14/2019
                Subject: Re: Photo-In-message experiments for our group
                Result of Exp. #3: 
                As expected, the linked worked naturally in both email and online group presentation.  No photo was shown, but the link worked and then the photo was seen. 

                So, one may store photos in the online "Photos" sector. And then fetch the link for the image in that sector. Then post the URL in a message.  Readers will then be able to reach the intended image.