Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                          AWES 27344 to 27395 Page 438 of 440.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27344 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27345 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27346 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27347 From: dave santos Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27348 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27349 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27350 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27351 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: STAWES Ship Traction AWES

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27352 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27353 From: tallakt Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Re: The Truth About Electric Planes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27354 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27355 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Re: The Truth About Electric Planes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27356 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Runway Take-Off with Tether

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27357 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Golden Age of Tethered Rigid Airframes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27358 From: dougselsam Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27359 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27360 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Kite Power's Initial Mishap Statement

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27361 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27362 From: dougselsam Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Re: Kite Power's Initial Mishap Statement

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27363 From: dougselsam Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27364 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Re: Kite Power's Initial Mishap Statement

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27365 From: dougselsam Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27366 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27367 From: dougselsam Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Re: Kite Power's Initial Mishap Statement

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27368 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Doug's request to look at AWE art

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27369 From: dougselsam Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27370 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Re: Kite Power's Initial Mishap Statement

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27371 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27372 From: dougselsam Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27373 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27374 From: dougselsam Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27375 From: dougselsam Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27376 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Human Factors in AWE Start-Ups

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27377 From: dougselsam Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Re: Human Factors in AWE Start-Ups

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27378 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27379 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Re: Human Factors in AWE Start-Ups

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27380 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Re: Latest Indian AWES Developer (Kerala ROCKS)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27381 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Re: Windvogel quasiAWE wins EU Lighting Award

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27382 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27385 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27386 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27387 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27388 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Trending News- another weird kite-smile case

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27389 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Order your polar kite harness

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27390 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Ahmedabad’s kite museum

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27391 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Re: Ahmedabad’s kite museum

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27392 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/13/2019
Subject: Cyclic-Porosity Sails?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27393 From: dave santos Date: 7/13/2019
Subject: The Single-Line AWES Crisis

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27394 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/13/2019
Subject: Re: The Single-Line AWES Crisis

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27395 From: dave santos Date: 7/13/2019
Subject: Re: The Single-Line AWES Crisis



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27344 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
Nicola Zorzi's master's thesis was much longer (59 pages) 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27345 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
Master's Thesis. 59 pages  
Note: prior paper of similar name was 10 pages. 
=========================

UNIVERSITÀ DEGLI STUDI DI PADOVA DIPARTIMENTO DI INGEGNERIA INDUSTRIALE Corso di Laurea Magistrale in Ingegneria Aerospaziale 

=============================
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27346 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
"Every one must have observed 
that when a slip of paper falls through the air, 
its motion, though undecided and wavering at first, 
sometimes becomes regular." 

James Clerk Maxwell (1831-1879) 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27347 From: dave santos Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
Einstein's hero, Maxwell, observed a sort of aeroelastic resonance set up, no doubt a wing-wake interaction, and found it interesting. Here is a "confetti tornado", showing how kite experiments could reveal wing wakes, adding to what tell-tales reveal about surface flow on the wing. Helium bubbles are the coolest such wind flow media, both to reveal  turbulence and to measure wind velocity precisely in smooth air.

Confetti Test in Times Square






 

"Every one must have observed 
that when a slip of paper falls through the air, 
its motion, though undecided and wavering at first, 
sometimes becomes regular." 

James Clerk Maxwell (1831-1879) 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27348 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
Have not any link to the thesis yet.   But a lead is here.

Free Fall Rotation of Rectangular Fins of Elongated Shape, These
Dupleich Paul, Vernotte Pierre




The earlier linked NACA document by Paul Dupleich was a translation. 
Translation of "Rotation par Chute Libre des Ailettes Rectangulaires de Forme Allongee." Publications Scientifiques et Techniques du Secretariat d'Etat a l'Aviation, No. 176, 1941

CAUTION:  Yet to be seen clearly is a possible distinction between a thesis by Paul Dupleich and a paper by Pierre Vernotte.     Apologies!       
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27349 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27350 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
  • Umberto Pesavento and Z. Jane Wang, Falling Paper: Navier-Stokes Solutions, Model of Fluid Forces, and Center of Mass Elevation, Physical Review Letters 93.14, 144501 (2004) [PDF]
  • A. Andersen, U. Pesavento, and Z. Jane Wang, Analysis of transitions between fluttering, tumbling and steady descent of falling cards, Journal of Fluid Mechanics 541, 91-104 (2005) [PDF]
  • A. Andersen, U. Pesavento, and Z. Jane Wang, Unsteady aerodynamics of fluttering and tumbling plates Journal of Fluid Mechanics541, 65-90 (2005) [PDF]
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27351 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: STAWES Ship Traction AWES

STAWES   Ship-Traction AWES   (air and water media)


  • Traction for direct transportation
    • Kiteboarding   ... the "ship" is a kiteboard
    • Kitefoiling ... the "ship" is a hydrofoil or kiteboard with hydrofoil
    • Snow kiting using "ship" as board or skis or sled or sledge, etc. 
    • Kite boating, kite sailing  with "ship" as yacht or small hull
    • Body kiting with "ship" as the human body.
    • ...???

STAWES-HT   The tracted ship features hydro turbines to generate electricity.  Hydro turbines may integrate with the ship's hull or be laterally mounted or trailing by tether in the seas
  • Ship-pulled kite systems where the air or water kites are pulled by a powered ship.  "Ship" may be any size; power may be by wind or fuel or other means. 
  • ???
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27352 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
A dozen additional posts as useless as confetti, excepted if confetti became a main purpose of AWE.

"Group Description

New forum: Advance kite systems to do good works. Flight media includes water, air, plasma, soils, space, and other media, even sometimes in combination."

Is wind energy still included in "good works"?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27353 From: tallakt Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Re: The Truth About Electric Planes
The singular truth that runway takeoff is superior to VTOL is not a truth, as runway takeoff with a tether is obviously not simple, nor proven commercially...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27354 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Pierre, "Useless" only to those who are not eagerly learning from the fine aerodynamics sources JoeF has shared. Leonardo would have been delighted.

You seemingly imagine confetti complaints somehow more useful than confetti science that connects to effects like KiteGen sideslip instability.

We also share more obvious wind energy knowledge sources and insights than anywhere else. Add more of those if they are lacking.


 

A dozen additional posts as useless as confetti, excepted if confetti became a main purpose of AWE.

"Group Description

New forum: Advance kite systems to do good works. Flight media includes water, air, plasma, soils, space, and other media, even sometimes in combination."

Is wind energy still included in "good works"?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27355 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Re: The Truth About Electric Planes
Tallak, What is proven is winch-tow launching, tether pick-up in banner-towing, and in-flight refueling, and aero-towing; all topics we have diligently explored.



 

The singular truth that runway takeoff is superior to VTOL is not a truth, as runway takeoff with a tether is obviously not simple, nor proven commercially...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27356 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Runway Take-Off with Tether
Thanks to Tallak for the idea, which as he says is not simple (or we would have thought more about it before).

A starting observation is that an aircraft can pay-out tether while taking off to avoid tether-dragging, or the tether must be kept clear of the surface all along.

Control-line model aircraft are the existence proof, where the pilot at the center of a flight circle takes the tethered model off along the circumference.

E-VTOL is not ideal either. There should be a careful comparison with all non- E-VTOL options.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27357 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Golden Age of Tethered Rigid Airframes
Model aviation control-line aircraft go back generations in time. These were all rigid airframes, and comprise a solid base of art.

There is a strong scaling law dimension to this AWES similarity case-base, as all the examples were small, and no large scale exception comes to mind, until AWE developers undertook concepts like M600 and AP3.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27358 From: dougselsam Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
daveS said: "More pertinent is to consider confetti seriously as an aerodynamic class. We are all learning here, so unusual educational examples are fair game, especially to show students how to think creatively about flight."
*** DougS replies: It is apparent to me that no progress will be made due to a lack of focus on effective working paradigms.  Today, "confetti" must be "the answer!" Ten more posts, this time about confetti.  Today we're enjoying an imaginary tickertape parade, celebrating daveS' unrelenting yet mysteriously ineffective genius!

Imagine panning for gold and one guy goes on for 12 years screaming "I found a nugget!" but it always turns out to be a rock (Joe's underground "wing"), or a walnut, or a stick, or a coin, or a bug, or a frog,..  Still, every day, we hear "I found another one!"  (but you never found the first one...) 

Meanwhile, which famous thinker from the long-ago past has daveS NOT tried to associate himself with?  OMG I can't even believe I wasted the time to write this, but people need to be told the truth, lest they too become persuaded to waste their lives on complete nonsense.

"Brainstorming", as we like to think of it, has its place, but the term could also refer to a brain in a confused state of nonconstructive turmoil.  Today we get to read about DuhVinci, who, despite being surrounded by wind turbines, was unable to design a workable helicopter rotor, instead drawing an Archimedes screw, without even a way to counter the reactive torque.  Aerodynamically, he was not very aware, falling into the "air is invisible so it will act however I want it to act" camp.  His hand-cranked "battle tank" would have had its wheels turning in opposite directions.  One important innovation in weaponry is attributed to him, true or not.  Overall, his drawings of unworkable machinery remind me of what kids in middle school draw in the margins of their notebooks when bored.  But he's famous because back then most people didn't even have writing materials handy.  The silly thing I see here is daveS once again "namedropping" famous thinkers, trying to thereby associate them with himself.  It just seems so weird to see him and Joe keep going on with all this stuff for now 12 years, no progress, probably 10,000 posts, every topic under the sun EXCEPT anything that would work - yet daveS acts as though he's in the position to be the final determiner of what "will" work or not - so weird.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

Pierre, 

Why bother following these topics if you don't like them and can't find value in them?

Aviation has always taken inspiration from modest examples like confetti. They are not an "admission of failure", but a sign of intelligence. Leonardo was not admitting failure by studying the flight of falling paper in his notebooks, only showing brilliance.

We see wild success in AWE, year by year, a dream coming true in our expected timeframe. Sure, some AWE ventures are predictable losers, but kite tech really is progressing by every known metric. Only you are "admitting failure", if you can't imagine AWE fulfilling Etzler's vision.

------------ 

Back on topic-

Paper aerodynamics a very cool tradition, not just toy flight. Human flight properly began with the paper-maker Montgolfier brothers and their paper flying machine, because they noticed something about confetti-like pieces of paper.

In 1990's I did FTTWDDW studies using simple helical paper strips rolling DW, which are close to what JoeF is after here. Lets also keep RoyM's Skybow ribbon wing in mind.

On ‎Thursday‎, ‎July‎ ‎11‎, ‎2019‎ ‎04‎:‎48‎:‎18‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, pierre-benhaiem@... [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  

Joe, a kite energy system for confetti is an admission of failure in regard to its expected purpose, leading to a quite negative consideration about what is its potential. I hope there are better opportunities.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27359 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
Confetti is not "the answer". Studying advanced aerodynamics is. Doug should keep up with the learning rather than think confetti is an issue.



 

daveS said: "More pertinent is to consider confetti seriously as an aerodynamic class. We are all learning here, so unusual educational examples are fair game, especially to show students how to think creatively about flight."
*** DougS replies: It is apparent to me that no progress will be made due to a lack of focus on effective working paradigms.  Today, "confetti" must be "the answer!" Ten more posts, this time about confetti.  Today we're enjoying an imaginary tickertape parade, celebrating daveS' unrelenting yet mysteriously ineffective genius!

Imagine panning for gold and one guy goes on for 12 years screaming "I found a nugget!" but it always turns out to be a rock (Joe's underground "wing"), or a walnut, or a stick, or a coin, or a bug, or a frog,..  Still, every day, we hear "I found another one!"  (but you never found the first one...) 

Meanwhile, which famous thinker from the long-ago past has daveS NOT tried to associate himself with?  OMG I can't even believe I wasted the time to write this, but people need to be told the truth, lest they too become persuaded to waste their lives on complete nonsense.

"Brainstorming", as we like to think of it, has its place, but the term could also refer to a brain in a confused state of nonconstructive turmoil.  Today we get to read about DuhVinci, who, despite being surrounded by wind turbines, was unable to design a workable helicopter rotor, instead drawing an Archimedes screw, without even a way to counter the reactive torque.  Aerodynamically, he was not very aware, falling into the "air is invisible so it will act however I want it to act" camp.  His hand-cranked "battle tank" would have had its wheels turning in opposite directions.  One important innovation in weaponry is attributed to him, true or not.  Overall, his drawings of unworkable machinery remind me of what kids in middle school draw in the margins of their notebooks when bored.  But he's famous because back then most people didn't even have writing materials handy.  The silly thing I see here is daveS once again "namedropping" famous thinkers, trying to thereby associate them with himself.  It just seems so weird to see him and Joe keep going on with all this stuff for now 12 years, no progress, probably 10,000 posts, every topic under the sun EXCEPT anything that would work - yet daveS acts as though he's in the position to be the final determiner of what "will" work or not - so weird.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

Pierre, 

Why bother following these topics if you don't like them and can't find value in them?

Aviation has always taken inspiration from modest examples like confetti. They are not an "admission of failure", but a sign of intelligence. Leonardo was not admitting failure by studying the flight of falling paper in his notebooks, only showing brilliance.

We see wild success in AWE, year by year, a dream coming true in our expected timeframe. Sure, some AWE ventures are predictable losers, but kite tech really is progressing by every known metric. Only you are "admitting failure", if you can't imagine AWE fulfilling Etzler's vision.

------------ 

Back on topic-

Paper aerodynamics a very cool tradition, not just toy flight. Human flight properly began with the paper-maker Montgolfier brothers and their paper flying machine, because they noticed something about confetti-like pieces of paper.

In 1990's I did FTTWDDW studies using simple helical paper strips rolling DW, which are close to what JoeF is after here. Lets also keep RoyM's Skybow ribbon wing in mind.

On ‎Thursday‎, ‎July‎ ‎11‎, ‎2019‎ ‎04‎:‎48‎:‎18‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, pierre-benhaiem@... [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  

Joe, a kite energy system for confetti is an admission of failure in regard to its expected purpose, leading to a quite negative consideration about what is its potential. I hope there are better opportunities.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27360 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Kite Power's Initial Mishap Statement
public relations narrative-

https://kitepower.nl/kp-30-05-2019/
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27361 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
Another design dimension here is how aircraft parts act in free-fall. Tumbling is a generally preferred mode compared to surging parts that may crash at max velocity rather than min velocity. Similarly, parts spiraling down are most at risk for high velocity crash during downwind rotation phase. Usually upwind landing is far better than downwind crashing, and smart falling parts may manage upwind landing, if nothing better. The general worst crash mode is direct arrow-like plummeting. Generally any oscillating path dissipates fall energy, but drifting too far can be a distinct risk.

Transport aircraft design has noted before this sort of issue, but I forget the case, where a parted wing surface needed to be calculated as to how it fell aerodynamically. Future aircraft could even break apart in a fatal dive, with all the parts fluttering down less harmfully, maybe in connected "power cloud" slow-fall mode. Smart parts could even choose landing spots much as a pilot does in an emergency landing. Such falling parts might have multi-mode potentials, falling variably according to conditions.





 

Confetti is not "the answer". Studying advanced aerodynamics is. Doug should keep up with the learning rather than think confetti is an issue.

On ‎Friday‎, ‎July‎ ‎12‎, ‎2019‎ ‎09‎:‎51‎:‎58‎ ‎AM‎ ‎CDT, dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


 

daveS said: "More pertinent is to consider confetti seriously as an aerodynamic class. We are all learning here, so unusual educational examples are fair game, especially to show students how to think creatively about flight."
*** DougS replies: It is apparent to me that no progress will be made due to a lack of focus on effective working paradigms.  Today, "confetti" must be "the answer!" Ten more posts, this time about confetti.  Today we're enjoying an imaginary tickertape parade, celebrating daveS' unrelenting yet mysteriously ineffective genius!

Imagine panning for gold and one guy goes on for 12 years screaming "I found a nugget!" but it always turns out to be a rock (Joe's underground "wing"), or a walnut, or a stick, or a coin, or a bug, or a frog,..  Still, every day, we hear "I found another one!"  (but you never found the first one...) 

Meanwhile, which famous thinker from the long-ago past has daveS NOT tried to associate himself with?  OMG I can't even believe I wasted the time to write this, but people need to be told the truth, lest they too become persuaded to waste their lives on complete nonsense.

"Brainstorming", as we like to think of it, has its place, but the term could also refer to a brain in a confused state of nonconstructive turmoil.  Today we get to read about DuhVinci, who, despite being surrounded by wind turbines, was unable to design a workable helicopter rotor, instead drawing an Archimedes screw, without even a way to counter the reactive torque.  Aerodynamically, he was not very aware, falling into the "air is invisible so it will act however I want it to act" camp.  His hand-cranked "battle tank" would have had its wheels turning in opposite directions.  One important innovation in weaponry is attributed to him, true or not.  Overall, his drawings of unworkable machinery remind me of what kids in middle school draw in the margins of their notebooks when bored.  But he's famous because back then most people didn't even have writing materials handy.  The silly thing I see here is daveS once again "namedropping" famous thinkers, trying to thereby associate them with himself.  It just seems so weird to see him and Joe keep going on with all this stuff for now 12 years, no progress, probably 10,000 posts, every topic under the sun EXCEPT anything that would work - yet daveS acts as though he's in the position to be the final determiner of what "will" work or not - so weird.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

Pierre, 

Why bother following these topics if you don't like them and can't find value in them?

Aviation has always taken inspiration from modest examples like confetti. They are not an "admission of failure", but a sign of intelligence. Leonardo was not admitting failure by studying the flight of falling paper in his notebooks, only showing brilliance.

We see wild success in AWE, year by year, a dream coming true in our expected timeframe. Sure, some AWE ventures are predictable losers, but kite tech really is progressing by every known metric. Only you are "admitting failure", if you can't imagine AWE fulfilling Etzler's vision.

------------ 

Back on topic-

Paper aerodynamics a very cool tradition, not just toy flight. Human flight properly began with the paper-maker Montgolfier brothers and their paper flying machine, because they noticed something about confetti-like pieces of paper.

In 1990's I did FTTWDDW studies using simple helical paper strips rolling DW, which are close to what JoeF is after here. Lets also keep RoyM's Skybow ribbon wing in mind.

On ‎Thursday‎, ‎July‎ ‎11‎, ‎2019‎ ‎04‎:‎48‎:‎18‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, pierre-benhaiem@... [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  

Joe, a kite energy system for confetti is an admission of failure in regard to its expected purpose, leading to a quite negative consideration about what is its potential. I hope there are better opportunities.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27362 From: dougselsam Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Re: Kite Power's Initial Mishap Statement
Well here at Selsam Innovations / U.S. Windlabs, we report an incident in 1967, when we suffered a crash of an important paper, wood-and-string prototype into a kite-eating tree.  We intend to write a paper on this and hopefully Springer will be willing to publish it.  Oh, and another time, we got so much string tangled up, it took like an hour to untangle.  Turned out we needed the help of a grownup.  Hopefully it will not cause an international crisis.  Hold on to your hats folks - this is big news.  Just ask BigNews Zubinsky.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27363 From: dougselsam Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
Hey daveS: Here's another branch of science for you to explore.  Not sure if there is any famous name in history for you to associate with it, but maybe it's "the next big thing" in energy!


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

daveS said: "More pertinent is to consider confetti seriously as an aerodynamic class. We are all learning here, so unusual educational examples are fair game, especially to show students how to think creatively about flight."
*** DougS replies: It is apparent to me that no progress will be made due to a lack of focus on effective working paradigms.  Today, "confetti" must be "the answer!" Ten more posts, this time about confetti.  Today we're enjoying an imaginary tickertape parade, celebrating daveS' unrelenting yet mysteriously ineffective genius!

Imagine panning for gold and one guy goes on for 12 years screaming "I found a nugget!" but it always turns out to be a rock (Joe's underground "wing"), or a walnut, or a stick, or a coin, or a bug, or a frog,..  Still, every day, we hear "I found another one!"  (but you never found the first one...) 

Meanwhile, which famous thinker from the long-ago past has daveS NOT tried to associate himself with?  OMG I can't even believe I wasted the time to write this, but people need to be told the truth, lest they too become persuaded to waste their lives on complete nonsense.

"Brainstorming", as we like to think of it, has its place, but the term could also refer to a brain in a confused state of nonconstructive turmoil.  Today we get to read about DuhVinci, who, despite being surrounded by wind turbines, was unable to design a workable helicopter rotor, instead drawing an Archimedes screw, without even a way to counter the reactive torque.  Aerodynamically, he was not very aware, falling into the "air is invisible so it will act however I want it to act" camp.  His hand-cranked "battle tank" would have had its wheels turning in opposite directions.  One important innovation in weaponry is attributed to him, true or not.  Overall, his drawings of unworkable machinery remind me of what kids in middle school draw in the margins of their notebooks when bored.  But he's famous because back then most people didn't even have writing materials handy.  The silly thing I see here is daveS once again "namedropping" famous thinkers, trying to thereby associate them with himself.  It just seems so weird to see him and Joe keep going on with all this stuff for now 12 years, no progress, probably 10,000 posts, every topic under the sun EXCEPT anything that would work - yet daveS acts as though he's in the position to be the final determiner of what "will" work or not - so weird.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

Pierre, 

Why bother following these topics if you don't like them and can't find value in them?

Aviation has always taken inspiration from modest examples like confetti. They are not an "admission of failure", but a sign of intelligence. Leonardo was not admitting failure by studying the flight of falling paper in his notebooks, only showing brilliance.

We see wild success in AWE, year by year, a dream coming true in our expected timeframe. Sure, some AWE ventures are predictable losers, but kite tech really is progressing by every known metric. Only you are "admitting failure", if you can't imagine AWE fulfilling Etzler's vision.

------------ 

Back on topic-

Paper aerodynamics a very cool tradition, not just toy flight. Human flight properly began with the paper-maker Montgolfier brothers and their paper flying machine, because they noticed something about confetti-like pieces of paper.

In 1990's I did FTTWDDW studies using simple helical paper strips rolling DW, which are close to what JoeF is after here. Lets also keep RoyM's Skybow ribbon wing in mind.

On ‎Thursday‎, ‎July‎ ‎11‎, ‎2019‎ ‎04‎:‎48‎:‎18‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, pierre-benhaiem@... [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  

Joe, a kite energy system for confetti is an admission of failure in regard to its expected purpose, leading to a quite negative consideration about what is its potential. I hope there are better opportunities.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27364 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Re: Kite Power's Initial Mishap Statement
Doug, Where is the US WindLabs report for the time a turbine blade hit you? That was no joke.



 

Well here at Selsam Innovations / U.S. Windlabs, we report an incident in 1967, when we suffered a crash of an important paper, wood-and-string prototype into a kite-eating tree.  We intend to write a paper on this and hopefully Springer will be willing to publish it.  Oh, and another time, we got so much string tangled up, it took like an hour to untangle.  Turned out we needed the help of a grownup.  Hopefully it will not cause an international crisis.  Hold on to your hats folks - this is big news.  Just ask BigNews Zubinsky.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27365 From: dougselsam Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
dvaeS said: "I know the Mona Lisa, and even practice old master painting techniques."
DougS replies: Where can we see your paintings?  Can you show us a photo?


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

Dave, you have already some difficulties with AWE. So please leave the piano music alone. As for Leonardo da Vinci, just look at the Mona Lisa.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27366 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
Doug, sleep science is important in R&D, and may have figured on Corwin's death, when Makani was doing 60hr weeks year after year. I do keep with sleep science; thanks for the link. Start a new topic if you want more details.



 

Hey daveS: Here's another branch of science for you to explore.  Not sure if there is any famous name in history for you to associate with it, but maybe it's "the next big thing" in energy!


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

daveS said: "More pertinent is to consider confetti seriously as an aerodynamic class. We are all learning here, so unusual educational examples are fair game, especially to show students how to think creatively about flight."
*** DougS replies: It is apparent to me that no progress will be made due to a lack of focus on effective working paradigms.  Today, "confetti" must be "the answer!" Ten more posts, this time about confetti.  Today we're enjoying an imaginary tickertape parade, celebrating daveS' unrelenting yet mysteriously ineffective genius!

Imagine panning for gold and one guy goes on for 12 years screaming "I found a nugget!" but it always turns out to be a rock (Joe's underground "wing"), or a walnut, or a stick, or a coin, or a bug, or a frog,..  Still, every day, we hear "I found another one!"  (but you never found the first one...) 

Meanwhile, which famous thinker from the long-ago past has daveS NOT tried to associate himself with?  OMG I can't even believe I wasted the time to write this, but people need to be told the truth, lest they too become persuaded to waste their lives on complete nonsense.

"Brainstorming", as we like to think of it, has its place, but the term could also refer to a brain in a confused state of nonconstructive turmoil.  Today we get to read about DuhVinci, who, despite being surrounded by wind turbines, was unable to design a workable helicopter rotor, instead drawing an Archimedes screw, without even a way to counter the reactive torque.  Aerodynamically, he was not very aware, falling into the "air is invisible so it will act however I want it to act" camp.  His hand-cranked "battle tank" would have had its wheels turning in opposite directions.  One important innovation in weaponry is attributed to him, true or not.  Overall, his drawings of unworkable machinery remind me of what kids in middle school draw in the margins of their notebooks when bored.  But he's famous because back then most people didn't even have writing materials handy.  The silly thing I see here is daveS once again "namedropping" famous thinkers, trying to thereby associate them with himself.  It just seems so weird to see him and Joe keep going on with all this stuff for now 12 years, no progress, probably 10,000 posts, every topic under the sun EXCEPT anything that would work - yet daveS acts as though he's in the position to be the final determiner of what "will" work or not - so weird.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

Pierre, 

Why bother following these topics if you don't like them and can't find value in them?

Aviation has always taken inspiration from modest examples like confetti. They are not an "admission of failure", but a sign of intelligence. Leonardo was not admitting failure by studying the flight of falling paper in his notebooks, only showing brilliance.

We see wild success in AWE, year by year, a dream coming true in our expected timeframe. Sure, some AWE ventures are predictable losers, but kite tech really is progressing by every known metric. Only you are "admitting failure", if you can't imagine AWE fulfilling Etzler's vision.

------------ 

Back on topic-

Paper aerodynamics a very cool tradition, not just toy flight. Human flight properly began with the paper-maker Montgolfier brothers and their paper flying machine, because they noticed something about confetti-like pieces of paper.

In 1990's I did FTTWDDW studies using simple helical paper strips rolling DW, which are close to what JoeF is after here. Lets also keep RoyM's Skybow ribbon wing in mind.

On ‎Thursday‎, ‎July‎ ‎11‎, ‎2019‎ ‎04‎:‎48‎:‎18‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, pierre-benhaiem@... [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  

Joe, a kite energy system for confetti is an admission of failure in regard to its expected purpose, leading to a quite negative consideration about what is its potential. I hope there are better opportunities.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27367 From: dougselsam Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Re: Kite Power's Initial Mishap Statement
It was during a film shoot for The Discovery Channel.  "Doug, look at the camera!  (sudden gust) Blam!"  Filmed in HD, I never saw the footage but it must have been pretty cool in slow motion watching the blood spatter.  They probably deleted it to avoid liability.  I wrapped it up and continued with the shoot.  Got it stitched up that evening.  But that was an in-house incident, not the sort of broken-kite-string international crisis suffered recently in Europe.  I guess it's the first time someone's kite flew away in AWE?  Seems unlikely.  But its a great excuse for you to have one more distraction to post about while still making no power.


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

Well here at Selsam Innovations / U.S. Windlabs, we report an incident in 1967, when we suffered a crash of an important paper, wood-and-string prototype into a kite-eating tree.  We intend to write a paper on this and hopefully Springer will be willing to publish it.  Oh, and another time, we got so much string tangled up, it took like an hour to untangle.  Turned out we needed the help of a grownup.  Hopefully it will not cause an international crisis.  Hold on to your hats folks - this is big news.  Just ask BigNews Zubinsky.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27368 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2019
Subject: Doug's request to look at AWE art
Attachments :
    Doug, 

    Breaking this to its own topic. Its not old master's technique, don't have an image handy, but a Microsoft Paint job.

    It features Wubbo the AWE astronaut; not your favorite sort of human, so feel free to print and throw darts :)

    See attch.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27369 From: dougselsam Date: 7/12/2019
    Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
    I knew you would come up with some way to bite into that one.  Of course!  How could you restrain yourself?  So predictable.  We already had your unauthorized "diagnosis" of Corwin.  I've heard otherwise.  Have you considered my unauthorized diagnosis for you?  Toxoplasmosis?  Seems like you have the symptoms - look it up!  Treatment may be possible.

    By the way, have you ever heard the common street rumor that if you came up with a cheap enough energy source, "they" would kill you, then acquire the technology, only to shelve it?  Just sayin'...

    You know I was thinking, if there were a color spectrum representing the span from "Professor Crackpot" at the purple end, to effective pursuit of wind energy, at the red end, I would place you in the ultraviolet.


    ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

    Hey daveS: Here's another branch of science for you to explore.  Not sure if there is any famous name in history for you to associate with it, but maybe it's "the next big thing" in energy!


    ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

    daveS said: "More pertinent is to consider confetti seriously as an aerodynamic class. We are all learning here, so unusual educational examples are fair game, especially to show students how to think creatively about flight."
    *** DougS replies: It is apparent to me that no progress will be made due to a lack of focus on effective working paradigms.  Today, "confetti" must be "the answer!" Ten more posts, this time about confetti.  Today we're enjoying an imaginary tickertape parade, celebrating daveS' unrelenting yet mysteriously ineffective genius!

    Imagine panning for gold and one guy goes on for 12 years screaming "I found a nugget!" but it always turns out to be a rock (Joe's underground "wing"), or a walnut, or a stick, or a coin, or a bug, or a frog,..  Still, every day, we hear "I found another one!"  (but you never found the first one...) 

    Meanwhile, which famous thinker from the long-ago past has daveS NOT tried to associate himself with?  OMG I can't even believe I wasted the time to write this, but people need to be told the truth, lest they too become persuaded to waste their lives on complete nonsense.

    "Brainstorming", as we like to think of it, has its place, but the term could also refer to a brain in a confused state of nonconstructive turmoil.  Today we get to read about DuhVinci, who, despite being surrounded by wind turbines, was unable to design a workable helicopter rotor, instead drawing an Archimedes screw, without even a way to counter the reactive torque.  Aerodynamically, he was not very aware, falling into the "air is invisible so it will act however I want it to act" camp.  His hand-cranked "battle tank" would have had its wheels turning in opposite directions.  One important innovation in weaponry is attributed to him, true or not.  Overall, his drawings of unworkable machinery remind me of what kids in middle school draw in the margins of their notebooks when bored.  But he's famous because back then most people didn't even have writing materials handy.  The silly thing I see here is daveS once again "namedropping" famous thinkers, trying to thereby associate them with himself.  It just seems so weird to see him and Joe keep going on with all this stuff for now 12 years, no progress, probably 10,000 posts, every topic under the sun EXCEPT anything that would work - yet daveS acts as though he's in the position to be the final determiner of what "will" work or not - so weird.

    ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

    Pierre, 

    Why bother following these topics if you don't like them and can't find value in them?

    Aviation has always taken inspiration from modest examples like confetti. They are not an "admission of failure", but a sign of intelligence. Leonardo was not admitting failure by studying the flight of falling paper in his notebooks, only showing brilliance.

    We see wild success in AWE, year by year, a dream coming true in our expected timeframe. Sure, some AWE ventures are predictable losers, but kite tech really is progressing by every known metric. Only you are "admitting failure", if you can't imagine AWE fulfilling Etzler's vision.

    ------------ 

    Back on topic-

    Paper aerodynamics a very cool tradition, not just toy flight. Human flight properly began with the paper-maker Montgolfier brothers and their paper flying machine, because they noticed something about confetti-like pieces of paper.

    In 1990's I did FTTWDDW studies using simple helical paper strips rolling DW, which are close to what JoeF is after here. Lets also keep RoyM's Skybow ribbon wing in mind.

    On ‎Thursday‎, ‎July‎ ‎11‎, ‎2019‎ ‎04‎:‎48‎:‎18‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, pierre-benhaiem@... [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  

    Joe, a kite energy system for confetti is an admission of failure in regard to its expected purpose, leading to a quite negative consideration about what is its potential. I hope there are better opportunities.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27370 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2019
    Subject: Re: Kite Power's Initial Mishap Statement
    Watching blood splatter in slo-mo is sick, not cool. Aviation Safety is Cool.



     

    It was during a film shoot for The Discovery Channel.  "Doug, look at the camera!  (sudden gust) Blam!"  Filmed in HD, I never saw the footage but it must have been pretty cool in slow motion watching the blood spatter.  They probably deleted it to avoid liability.  I wrapped it up and continued with the shoot.  Got it stitched up that evening.  But that was an in-house incident, not the sort of broken-kite-string international crisis suffered recently in Europe.  I guess it's the first time someone's kite flew away in AWE?  Seems unlikely.  But its a great excuse for you to have one more distraction to post about while still making no power.



    ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

    Well here at Selsam Innovations / U.S. Windlabs, we report an incident in 1967, when we suffered a crash of an important paper, wood-and-string prototype into a kite-eating tree.  We intend to write a paper on this and hopefully Springer will be willing to publish it.  Oh, and another time, we got so much string tangled up, it took like an hour to untangle.  Turned out we needed the help of a grownup.  Hopefully it will not cause an international crisis.  Hold on to your hats folks - this is big news.  Just ask BigNews Zubinsky.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27371 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2019
    Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
    Makani did overwork at "start-up pace", that's a legitimate factor. Burnout is real. Getting good sleep promotes creative output. Corwin was a friend. At Leuven, we stayed up talking shop until we were the last clients in the whole tourist strip; all other AWE folks were long gone. Google was buying the beer, but Corwin wasn't drinking. I had a big thirst, having biked from Amsterdam on 60eu heap.

    Change the topic if you need more details.



     

    I knew you would come up with some way to bite into that one.  Of course!  How could you restrain yourself?  So predictable.  We already had your unauthorized "diagnosis" of Corwin.  I've heard otherwise.  Have you considered my unauthorized diagnosis for you?  Toxoplasmosis?  Seems like you have the symptoms - look it up!  Treatment may be possible.

    By the way, have you ever heard the common street rumor that if you came up with a cheap enough energy source, "they" would kill you, then acquire the technology, only to shelve it?  Just sayin'...

    You know I was thinking, if there were a color spectrum representing the span from "Professor Crackpot" at the purple end, to effective pursuit of wind energy, at the red end, I would place you in the ultraviolet.


    ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

    Hey daveS: Here's another branch of science for you to explore.  Not sure if there is any famous name in history for you to associate with it, but maybe it's "the next big thing" in energy!


    ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

    daveS said: "More pertinent is to consider confetti seriously as an aerodynamic class. We are all learning here, so unusual educational examples are fair game, especially to show students how to think creatively about flight."
    *** DougS replies: It is apparent to me that no progress will be made due to a lack of focus on effective working paradigms.  Today, "confetti" must be "the answer!" Ten more posts, this time about confetti.  Today we're enjoying an imaginary tickertape parade, celebrating daveS' unrelenting yet mysteriously ineffective genius!

    Imagine panning for gold and one guy goes on for 12 years screaming "I found a nugget!" but it always turns out to be a rock (Joe's underground "wing"), or a walnut, or a stick, or a coin, or a bug, or a frog,..  Still, every day, we hear "I found another one!"  (but you never found the first one...) 

    Meanwhile, which famous thinker from the long-ago past has daveS NOT tried to associate himself with?  OMG I can't even believe I wasted the time to write this, but people need to be told the truth, lest they too become persuaded to waste their lives on complete nonsense.

    "Brainstorming", as we like to think of it, has its place, but the term could also refer to a brain in a confused state of nonconstructive turmoil.  Today we get to read about DuhVinci, who, despite being surrounded by wind turbines, was unable to design a workable helicopter rotor, instead drawing an Archimedes screw, without even a way to counter the reactive torque.  Aerodynamically, he was not very aware, falling into the "air is invisible so it will act however I want it to act" camp.  His hand-cranked "battle tank" would have had its wheels turning in opposite directions.  One important innovation in weaponry is attributed to him, true or not.  Overall, his drawings of unworkable machinery remind me of what kids in middle school draw in the margins of their notebooks when bored.  But he's famous because back then most people didn't even have writing materials handy.  The silly thing I see here is daveS once again "namedropping" famous thinkers, trying to thereby associate them with himself.  It just seems so weird to see him and Joe keep going on with all this stuff for now 12 years, no progress, probably 10,000 posts, every topic under the sun EXCEPT anything that would work - yet daveS acts as though he's in the position to be the final determiner of what "will" work or not - so weird.

    ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

    Pierre, 

    Why bother following these topics if you don't like them and can't find value in them?

    Aviation has always taken inspiration from modest examples like confetti. They are not an "admission of failure", but a sign of intelligence. Leonardo was not admitting failure by studying the flight of falling paper in his notebooks, only showing brilliance.

    We see wild success in AWE, year by year, a dream coming true in our expected timeframe. Sure, some AWE ventures are predictable losers, but kite tech really is progressing by every known metric. Only you are "admitting failure", if you can't imagine AWE fulfilling Etzler's vision.

    ------------ 

    Back on topic-

    Paper aerodynamics a very cool tradition, not just toy flight. Human flight properly began with the paper-maker Montgolfier brothers and their paper flying machine, because they noticed something about confetti-like pieces of paper.

    In 1990's I did FTTWDDW studies using simple helical paper strips rolling DW, which are close to what JoeF is after here. Lets also keep RoyM's Skybow ribbon wing in mind.

    On ‎Thursday‎, ‎July‎ ‎11‎, ‎2019‎ ‎04‎:‎48‎:‎18‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, pierre-benhaiem@... [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  

    Joe, a kite energy system for confetti is an admission of failure in regard to its expected purpose, leading to a quite negative consideration about what is its potential. I hope there are better opportunities.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27372 From: dougselsam Date: 7/12/2019
    Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art
    I don't see no steenkeeng attachment, as usual.  Is it the  f***ed-up Yahoo Groups website again, or did you forget to attach an image?
    By the way, if  you want to see how poor the Yahoo Groups "search" function is, try the search bar at the top of the page to look for the term Mona Lisa.


    ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27373 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2019
    Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art
    I've never yet needed to use Yahoo Groups search; the Mona Lisa is in Paris. 

    You have never found any direct quote to support your wild accusations either.

    The image shows Wubbo towering over a golden horde of kite heroes, with lots of power kites in the air. 

    I'll add your face for $25; cheaper and easier than striving to be an actual kite hero.



     

    I don't see no steenkeeng attachment, as usual.  Is it the  f***ed-up Yahoo Groups website again, or did you forget to attach an image?
    By the way, if  you want to see how poor the Yahoo Groups "search" function is, try the search bar at the top of the page to look for the term Mona Lisa.


    ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27374 From: dougselsam Date: 7/12/2019
    Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
    I sat next to Corwin on a panel at an investor conference in San Francisco and he seemed perfectly healthy nd relaxed to me.  We had a fun time.  I also do not normally drink, but I love the taste of a Margarita.  Just don't do so well being drunk - I'm already stupid enough naturally.

    I recognize no basis for your bizarre unauthorized "diagnosis" of Karōshi (過労死) for Corwin.  But I still recommend you check into my unauthorized diagnosis 4 U:


    ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

    I knew you would come up with some way to bite into that one.  Of course!  How could you restrain yourself?  So predictable.  We already had your unauthorized "diagnosis" of Corwin.  I've heard otherwise.  Have you considered my unauthorized diagnosis for you?  Toxoplasmosis?  Seems like you have the symptoms - look it up!  Treatment may be possible.

    By the way, have you ever heard the common street rumor that if you came up with a cheap enough energy source, "they" would kill you, then acquire the technology, only to shelve it?  Just sayin'...

    You know I was thinking, if there were a color spectrum representing the span from "Professor Crackpot" at the purple end, to effective pursuit of wind energy, at the red end, I would place you in the ultraviolet.


    ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

    Hey daveS: Here's another branch of science for you to explore.  Not sure if there is any famous name in history for you to associate with it, but maybe it's "the next big thing" in energy!


    ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

    daveS said: "More pertinent is to consider confetti seriously as an aerodynamic class. We are all learning here, so unusual educational examples are fair game, especially to show students how to think creatively about flight."
    *** DougS replies: It is apparent to me that no progress will be made due to a lack of focus on effective working paradigms.  Today, "confetti" must be "the answer!" Ten more posts, this time about confetti.  Today we're enjoying an imaginary tickertape parade, celebrating daveS' unrelenting yet mysteriously ineffective genius!

    Imagine panning for gold and one guy goes on for 12 years screaming "I found a nugget!" but it always turns out to be a rock (Joe's underground "wing"), or a walnut, or a stick, or a coin, or a bug, or a frog,..  Still, every day, we hear "I found another one!"  (but you never found the first one...) 

    Meanwhile, which famous thinker from the long-ago past has daveS NOT tried to associate himself with?  OMG I can't even believe I wasted the time to write this, but people need to be told the truth, lest they too become persuaded to waste their lives on complete nonsense.

    "Brainstorming", as we like to think of it, has its place, but the term could also refer to a brain in a confused state of nonconstructive turmoil.  Today we get to read about DuhVinci, who, despite being surrounded by wind turbines, was unable to design a workable helicopter rotor, instead drawing an Archimedes screw, without even a way to counter the reactive torque.  Aerodynamically, he was not very aware, falling into the "air is invisible so it will act however I want it to act" camp.  His hand-cranked "battle tank" would have had its wheels turning in opposite directions.  One important innovation in weaponry is attributed to him, true or not.  Overall, his drawings of unworkable machinery remind me of what kids in middle school draw in the margins of their notebooks when bored.  But he's famous because back then most people didn't even have writing materials handy.  The silly thing I see here is daveS once again "namedropping" famous thinkers, trying to thereby associate them with himself.  It just seems so weird to see him and Joe keep going on with all this stuff for now 12 years, no progress, probably 10,000 posts, every topic under the sun EXCEPT anything that would work - yet daveS acts as though he's in the position to be the final determiner of what "will" work or not - so weird.

    ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

    Pierre, 

    Why bother following these topics if you don't like them and can't find value in them?

    Aviation has always taken inspiration from modest examples like confetti. They are not an "admission of failure", but a sign of intelligence. Leonardo was not admitting failure by studying the flight of falling paper in his notebooks, only showing brilliance.

    We see wild success in AWE, year by year, a dream coming true in our expected timeframe. Sure, some AWE ventures are predictable losers, but kite tech really is progressing by every known metric. Only you are "admitting failure", if you can't imagine AWE fulfilling Etzler's vision.

    ------------ 

    Back on topic-

    Paper aerodynamics a very cool tradition, not just toy flight. Human flight properly began with the paper-maker Montgolfier brothers and their paper flying machine, because they noticed something about confetti-like pieces of paper.

    In 1990's I did FTTWDDW studies using simple helical paper strips rolling DW, which are close to what JoeF is after here. Lets also keep RoyM's Skybow ribbon wing in mind.

    On ‎Thursday‎, ‎July‎ ‎11‎, ‎2019‎ ‎04‎:‎48‎:‎18‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, pierre-benhaiem@... [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  

    Joe, a kite energy system for confetti is an admission of failure in regard to its expected purpose, leading to a quite negative consideration about what is its potential. I hope there are better opportunities.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27375 From: dougselsam Date: 7/12/2019
    Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art
    Attachments :
      Yahoo Groups Search Function: I was referring to the fact that the latest mention of Mona Lisa was today, yet the search function shows only returns from 7 years ago.  I mention this in reference to you and Joe's perennial demands for "exact quotes".
      Attached Images: I still do not see your attached image.  Could it be an ad-blocker or something?
      Here is a painting I did in High School - just happens to be a view of your favorite example of wind power:  Supposedly "attached", let's see if it shows up when you read this.



      ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

      I don't see no steenkeeng attachment, as usual.  Is it the  f***ed-up Yahoo Groups website again, or did you forget to attach an image?
      By the way, if  you want to see how poor the Yahoo Groups "search" function is, try the search bar at the top of the page to look for the term Mona Lisa.


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      		  @@attachment@@
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27376 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2019
      Subject: Human Factors in AWE Start-Ups
      Doug: "I sat next to Corwin on a panel at an investor conference in San Francisco and he seemed perfectly healthy nd relaxed to me."

      You should have followed him back to Alameda. They really did work long hours at early Makani. High-complexity design demands it. The tremendous turn-over of hundreds of hires is an indicator. There is not one known early employee still around; maybe a PR staffer or janitor.

      kPower just plays hard, and burnout is not an issue. Let anyone cry, "no power", until 2030 nears, and the turtle somehow beats the hares.

      A Human Factor that has really limited many AWE ventures and PhD programs is advertising for employees and students to settle for the tiny selection pool.

      The superior practice is to beat the bushes for rare talent and recruit accordingly. Someone hire Tomas Mann, for example; who is not going to be uploading a CV to Google-jobs.
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27377 From: dougselsam Date: 7/12/2019
      Subject: Re: Human Factors in AWE Start-Ups
      Dear daveS:  The extremely frustrating and unfulfilling aspect of conversing with you is your lack of follow-through, and refusal to stick with a given topic.  For example, just a few minutes ago, you purported to attach a painting of Wubbo, yet it never showed up, and, predictably, you have no response.  Sounds like more daveS fiction.  Did the painting I attached for you show up?  Yes. Then the attachment function is working, so I guess you only SAY you're showing us your painting.  Or that you even have one. Just like your "wind power experiments" produce no power, your "painting" shows no painting. 
      Yeah sure, you and DaVinci, you and Maxwell, you and Einstein...

      daveS said: "Let anyone cry, "no power", until 2030 nears, and the turtle somehow beats the hares."
      DougS replies: We've already suffered through 12 years of your nonsense, results: still zero power.
      And we're supposed to believe that by some miracle, you only need 11 more years and THEN we'll see some power?  Sure.  I can just imagine your excuses in 11 years.  One major problem with people like you is there is zero accountability, just a prolific thicket of excuses too dense to penetrate. We can wait the 11 years you now demand, you will still have nothing to offer, and we'll hear you go on still pretending to have all the answers, with some excuse and probably a demand for another decade or two, until you supposedly WILL DO anything.  We have to wait decades for "more future-fake news" from daveS - but hey, be patient!

      I would just change the year 2030 to "perpetuity" and stop pretending you know what you're doing.  Like a greased water balloon, there is no way to get a grip on you, no way you can be held accountable for even a statement you made an HOUR ago, let alone eleven years from now.  Where is that picture of "Wubbo"?
      Also:
      When you think
      Wubbo & Corwin
      think
      Jimi, Janis, Morrison, Holly, Skynard, Lennon,etc.



      ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27378 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/12/2019
      Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
      Yes. "kite systems" implies converting media flow kinetic energy to other forms of energy; the other forms of energy are destined to change the world in some way, hopefully some good practical way. 
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27379 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2019
      Subject: Re: Human Factors in AWE Start-Ups
      Doug, I see the attachment in the return post. You are strangely impatient over fun art. I do follow up your proof requests, like pointing out the generator on the Mini Mothra HAWT, and teaching you that shorting the gen was a real max power test..

      Instead of being frustrated here, be grateful for thousands of information posts JoeF and I work hard to share. Share less unhappiness by being happier about AWE. 

      You'll see the photo sooner or later. Maybe 2030.





       

      Dear daveS:  The extremely frustrating and unfulfilling aspect of conversing with you is your lack of follow-through, and refusal to stick with a given topic.  For example, just a few minutes ago, you purported to attach a painting of Wubbo, yet it never showed up, and, predictably, you have no response.  Sounds like more daveS fiction.  Did the painting I attached for you show up?  Yes. Then the attachment function is working, so I guess you only SAY you're showing us your painting.  Or that you even have one. Just like your "wind power experiments" produce no power, your "painting" shows no painting. 
      Yeah sure, you and DaVinci, you and Maxwell, you and Einstein...

      daveS said: "Let anyone cry, "no power", until 2030 nears, and the turtle somehow beats the hares."
      DougS replies: We've already suffered through 12 years of your nonsense, results: still zero power.
      And we're supposed to believe that by some miracle, you only need 11 more years and THEN we'll see some power?  Sure.  I can just imagine your excuses in 11 years.  One major problem with people like you is there is zero accountability, just a prolific thicket of excuses too dense to penetrate. We can wait the 11 years you now demand, you will still have nothing to offer, and we'll hear you go on still pretending to have all the answers, with some excuse and probably a demand for another decade or two, until you supposedly WILL DO anything.  We have to wait decades for "more future-fake news" from daveS - but hey, be patient!

      I would just change the year 2030 to "perpetuity" and stop pretending you know what you're doing.  Like a greased water balloon, there is no way to get a grip on you, no way you can be held accountable for even a statement you made an HOUR ago, let alone eleven years from now.  Where is that picture of "Wubbo"?
      Also:
      When you think
      Wubbo & Corwin
      think
      Jimi, Janis, Morrison, Holly, Skynard, Lennon,etc.



      ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27380 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2019
      Subject: Re: Latest Indian AWES Developer (Kerala ROCKS)
      Latest major Indian Press coverage, Sobin is going viral as a national AWE story. The project actually started about three years ago-

      Young engineer’s kite energy gets a ‘Startup’ push


      Seeing the kite for 10USD wholesale, from the same Weifang conglomerate that handles Peter Lynn Pilot Kites.



       

      The principal researcher is Sobin Sabu Thankachan, Research Associate at International Centre for Technological Innovations, researching on Airborne Wind Energy Systems (AWES). A congratulations to Sobin and invitation to know TR and work with kPower has been sent..

      Here is a more detailed page with nice video-

      New innovations in flying kites are disrupting wind energy research - Sobin Sabu Thankachan




      On ‎Wednesday‎, ‎July‎ ‎10‎, ‎2019‎ ‎07‎:‎21‎:‎51‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


       

      India may well rule AWE. Restricted funding and superior kite traditions are possibly the most competitive natural selection factors. Fun Facts- Kerala is the birthplace of advanced mathematics. kPower depended on Keralan T.R. Viswanathan of UTexas EE for early mentorship and inspiration, including the study of kite suitability to harvest Kerala's famously tall coconut trees. Kerala ROCKS.
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27381 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/12/2019
      Subject: Re: Windvogel quasiAWE wins EU Lighting Award
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27382 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/12/2019
      Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art
      http://www.energykitesystems.net/DaveSantos/wubbounderground.jpg


      ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@yahoo.com
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27385 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2019
      Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art
      Attachments :
        As usual, a cry of "Wolf!". The image was attached all along, needing only a click to open-

        Doug: "just a few minutes ago, you purported to attach a painting of Wubbo, yet it never showed up, and, predictably, you have no response.  Sounds like more daveS fiction.  Did the painting I attached for you show up?  Yes. Then the attachment function is working, so I guess you only SAY you're showing us your painting.  Or that you even have one. Just like your "wind power experiments" produce no power, your "painting" shows no painting. "

        Predictably, I do in fact have a response: This is a Coyote and Roadrunner cartoon, Doug never catches anything. "Bee-beep". Who-o-o-o-s-s-h!

        Remember- just because someone seems to constantly cry "Wolf", the next time could be real, that's the lesson of the story.

        Inline image


         


         

        http://www.energykitesystems.net/DaveSantos/wubbounderground.jpg



        ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@yahoo.com
        		  @@attachment@@
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27386 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/12/2019
        Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art
        Testing: 
        When online, Photos, New Album:  AWE art
        "Posted".  Copied URL. 
        Art by Dave Santos
        Pasted URL above this line. 
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27387 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/12/2019
        Subject: Re: Doug's request to look at AWE art

        Testing now in Internet Explorer:
        Copying photo and pasting directly into online signedpin edit post tool:
         

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        When online, Photos, New Album:  AWE art
        "Posted".  Copied URL. 
        Art by Dave Santos
        Pasted URL above this line. 
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27388 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2019
        Subject: Trending News- another weird kite-smile case
        They call it "positive energy...to break through the negativity"-

        "On a whim, Walker bought a small kite for a dollar at Goodwill. When he flew the kite, he said his spirits were raised.
        Then he thought: I wish more people could experience the happiness I had while flying this kite.
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27389 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2019
        Subject: Order your polar kite harness

        As developed by Ulrich of "Norwegian Borge Ouslad and the German Thomas Ulrich, who installed kites on sleds to move through a South Patagonia" 2003

        " suitable for kiting through a removable, additional sling."
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27390 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/12/2019
        Subject: Ahmedabad’s kite museum

        The variety will probably continue

        and thus opportunity to showcase AWE in all her splendor: 


        Ahmedabad’s kite museum: Paperbirds take you on Cloud 9
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27391 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/12/2019
        Subject: Re: Ahmedabad’s kite museum
        The article doesn't use "AWE" word, knowing the universality of kites is tethered to the universality of AWE revealed by visionary minds.
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27392 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/13/2019
        Subject: Cyclic-Porosity Sails?

        Cyclic-Porosity Sails?    (CPS)

        Controlled permeability?  Cyclic-permeable sails?   

        ================

        Discussants are invited over time to advance cyclic-porosity sails (CPS) with AWE in sight. 

        Maybe let "CPS" face porosity and permeability issues?

        ================

        Short- or long-period cycles?

        Open pores: wind or water passes through CPS more easily. 

        Closed pores: wind or water does not pass through CPS. 

        During closed pores: increase the conversion of media kinetic energy. 

        During open pores: let resetting of working lines. 

        Trigger closing of pores by various means: light, electricity, mechanical vibrations, mechanical means, chemical means, sound means, temperature changes, flow changes, threshold triggering, timing, pressure, aversion, magnetics, bi-mesh translation, bi-mesh rotations, moisture, evaporation, closure by rotation, closure by translation, flaps, gates, inflation-deflation gating, zippers, zip-locking, static, tension variations, blockage,  ...

        How to use CPS in AWES? 

        Tests? Experimental results?

        ================

        open-close holes

        aperture 

        gaps

        slits

        ==============================================

        tags: 

        pore, pores, porosity, cycles, pumping, kite covers, sails, fabrics, 

        pressure-release, over pressure, limits, non-unobtainium, permeability, close-open, pinching, relaxing, shrinking, contraction, muscles, porosimetry, air permeability, active fabrics, cyclic permeability, variable porosity, shape alternation, variable geometry, on-off, passive control, active control, variable ventilation, pulsating, pulsing, transient, moisture, evaporation, overlap moire effect, moiré (“mwah-ray”) or interference patterns, de-powering, 

        =======================

        Teaser:

        http://www.energykitesystems.net/CyclicPorositySails/CyclicPorositySails001.jpg

        =======================

        Some teasing items: 
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27393 From: dave santos Date: 7/13/2019
        Subject: The Single-Line AWES Crisis
        The recent Kite Power Mishap is a wake-up call to the world, a turning point in AWE. This class of mishap happens to all single-line AWES developers. Single-line kite runaway is an engineering issue just the same as it was during the Golden Age of Kites. 

        Now all single-line AWES ventures are in crisis, effectively grounded near populations, because the risks are clear to investors, regulators, and the public; risks only a few tethered aviation experts knew about before. Softer-wing multi-line architectures are now more obviously advantaged. R&D will slowly but surely shift in that direction. 

        Single-line AWE ventures have few options left-

          - small AWES, 
          - pivot to softer multiline architectures, 
          - stay in single-line for perhaps decades, until single-line safety statistics match commercial aviation (become safer than a home bathtub).
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27394 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/13/2019
        Subject: Re: The Single-Line AWES Crisis
        For several years I have investigated some architectures of which one with a huge rotating kite driving a ground ring with peripheral ropes: 
        https://www.researchgate.net/publication/324135034_Airborne_Wind_Energy_Conversion_Using_a_Rotating_Reel_System.
        Such an architecture can be safer thanks to the multi lines, and also to the possibility of depower by reversal the kite held only by the central rope. It scales by all dimensions, a small device flying in low altitude, a large device flying in high altitude.
        To solve; the huge rotating power kite, the lifting kite, the ground rotor for a cheaper transmission.
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27395 From: dave santos Date: 7/13/2019
        Subject: Re: The Single-Line AWES Crisis
        Pierre,

        Have you been warning TUDelft circles about their AWES single-line dependency, whether or not they support your Rotating Reels? 

        You have had the closest relations to them and AWEurope, of anyone that posts here, and you have long followed the safety issues as warned here.





         

        For several years I have investigated some architectures of which one with a huge rotating kite driving a ground ring with peripheral ropes: 
        https://www.researchgate.net/publication/324135034_Airborne_Wind_Energy_Conversion_Using_a_Rotating_Reel_System.
        Such an architecture can be safer thanks to the multi lines, and also to the possibility of depower by reversal the kite held only by the central rope. It scales by all dimensions, a small device flying in low altitude, a large device flying in high altitude.
        To solve; the huge rotating power kite, the lifting kite, the ground rotor for a cheaper transmission.