Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                          AWES 27294 to 27343 Page 437 of 440.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27294 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: TumbleWing Looping Foil Video Located

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27295 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: TumbleWing Looping Foil Video Located

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27296 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27297 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27298 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: Dynamic Soaring Methods for AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27299 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: Dynamic Soaring Methods for AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27300 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: Power Kiting Underground

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27301 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27302 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Wire Rope Saw Engine as AWES Design Similarity Case

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27303 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Historic AWE Mishap Witness- "We heard a huge blow, We thought: Some

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27304 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Latest Indian AWES Developer (Kerala ROCKS)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27305 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: Historic AWE Mishap Witness- "We heard a huge blow, We thought:

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27306 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: Latest Indian AWES Developer (Kerala ROCKS)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27307 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Cheapest Power Kite Yet ($20USD 2.5m2) !!!

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27308 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Great KAP Site- Deep Techne

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27309 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27310 From: dave santos Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27311 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: KiteSledging Icecaps in Style

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27312 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Kevin Langeree

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27313 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27314 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27315 From: dave santos Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27316 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27317 From: dave santos Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27318 From: dave santos Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27319 From: dave santos Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Kevin Langeree

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27320 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27321 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27322 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27323 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27324 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27325 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27326 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27327 From: dave santos Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27328 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: The Truth About Electric Planes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27329 From: dave santos Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27330 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27331 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27332 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27333 From: dave santos Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: The Truth About Electric Planes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27334 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27335 From: dave santos Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27336 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27337 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27338 From: dave santos Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27339 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27340 From: dave santos Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Power Cloud (branching from Confetti topic)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27341 From: dave santos Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27342 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27343 From: dave santos Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Power Cloud (branching from Confetti topic)



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27294 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: TumbleWing Looping Foil Video Located
No Doug, I only seem to be so accused by two or three specific cranks offended by some solid criticism, like how the ST drive shaft does not scale.

The TumbleWing was no lie.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27295 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: TumbleWing Looping Foil Video Located
Doug, more flying: HERE
A main share was the generalizing of "tumble" and "tumbling" where looping may be sub to such word. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27296 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
We do discuss wind energy. It would be a lie to knowingly suggest otherwise.



 

Yeah, make sure to fully explore every conceivable topic, except wind energy.



---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <joefaust333@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27297 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
Doug, this topic relates to sectors of AWE. 
=================================
Furthering: 

It is still an open question for me:  When Leonardo was apparently playing with gliding paper, did he notice occasional looping or not: 

https://www.mh-aerotools.de/airfoils/images/leonardo.gif
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27298 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: Dynamic Soaring Methods for AWE
Leonardo da Vinci and dynamic soaring
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27299 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: Dynamic Soaring Methods for AWE
Wow, Leonardo really did understand DS; the Birds taught him well. What a difference it makes to see the world in a spirit of curious wonder. 

Leonardo even noted bird species not famed for DS doing the moves across micro gradients created by wind shadows of large buildings. "Good Eye".

Why has not Manuscript E been better accessible?



 

Leonardo da Vinci and dynamic soaring
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27300 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: Power Kiting Underground
So here's the proposed underground moving kite tether basis, a wire-rope quarry saw. The sky kite load motion would come down on a polymer rope drive, and a surface coupling would transfer power to the wire saw. Kiwee1 would be a nice scale model upper part to saw small logs and stones on the surface.

WIRE SAW CUTTING MACHINE S860EG IN CARRARA WHITE MARBLE QUARRY






 

"All roads lead to the Super Turbine" is closer to "too absurd". Underground drilling happens to be the only long powerful drive shaft similarity case, but way too massive. "Not gonna fly", as they say.

Active soil kites may also liquify surrounding soil by vibration, heating, and/or fluid injection. Its actually a neat ME idea. Underground velocity in solid rock could be little as a few cm an hour

On ‎Wednesday‎, ‎July‎ ‎10‎, ‎2019‎ ‎04‎:‎32‎:‎26‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


 

Nothing is too absurd for these two bored (and boring) jokers... (yawn)


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27301 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
A clip from the Ames patent filed in 1908: 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27302 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Wire Rope Saw Engine as AWES Design Similarity Case
Branching from Underground Power Kite. The rope saw quarry machine is of high interest as an AWES design analog. The engine itself, bullwheel, and two lead pulleys are not the most interesting part. The whole working assembly is on a rack-drive track and can translate any distance provided for. We consider just these sorts mechanical motions for our kites and cableway transmissions. Here is a source of COTS mechanisms we can source from scap as we scale up AWE to industrial practice.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27303 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Historic AWE Mishap Witness- "We heard a huge blow, We thought: Some
While we await a full report, an examination of available sources. Oddly the PIC, VO, or Flight Director of the session are not interviewed, just bystanders. Looks like a new ~50m2 wing. That the roof actually breeched indicates deadly force. Possible world-record kite-thump. Police took a "Polish attitude". That's pretty serious.

Bing translation from Dutch-

Parachute screen collapses at grocery store: ' A huge blow '  

A paraglider's fallen sliding screen | Photo: Hoogvliet Valkenburg

VALKENBURG-Employees and customers of supermarket Hoogvliet on the main street in Valkenburg were shocked on Thursday afternoon. They heard ' a huge bang ' around 16.00 hours, when suddenly a screen of a parachute crashed on the roof. ' We really thought that something very bad happened. '
In the case of a paraglider, all kinds of cables and ropes were tied. Some of them ended up on the roof of the supermarket. Lisa van den Bosch (19) worked at that time behind the checkout. "We heard a huge blow," she says. ' We thought: Something really bad is happening, the roof is falling out. But luckily it was. '
There was a hole in the roof, because a few plates were falling from the ceiling. Although it was busy, no one was injured, says Lisa relieved. ' Everyone remained quiet, no one went out. Of course it has gone all the time and everyone wondered what was going on. I have never experienced anything like that. '
Two houses away
The police came to take Polish altitude. The part of the parachute came two houses away in a garden. The occupant was not there at that time, reporting several neighbors. The paraglider would have been unmanned and came from the former airfield Valkenburg.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27304 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Latest Indian AWES Developer (Kerala ROCKS)
India may well rule AWE. Restricted funding and superior kite traditions are possibly the most competitive natural selection factors. Fun Facts- Kerala is the birthplace of advanced mathematics. kPower depended on Keralan T.R. Viswanathan of UTexas EE for early mentorship and inspiration, including the study of kite suitability to harvest Kerala's famously tall coconut trees. Kerala ROCKS.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27305 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: Historic AWE Mishap Witness- "We heard a huge blow, We thought:
Initial aerial map analysis suggests the runaway kite landed at the supermarket ~1.5km NE of the Valkenburg Air Base circular pad TUD has often used.

Another report in machine translation from Dutch, rather vaguely sourced, from New Forum-

"
Experimental kite
The appliance is sent to the airport in Valkenburg with a cable. ' That cable was going to wear out, which he shot with a flurry of wind, ' knows Arie. The crashed kite is part of experiments with wind energy pilots. It is for the resident no reason to require that the airport and the company stop the experimental flights. ' The technical man who is the head of the experiments has already offered his apologies, ' says Arie. "He said to me, I am shouldering in innocence because this is just force majeure."
The company, Kitepower, further submits with Hoogvliet about the handling of the damage. Kitepower was not reachable on Friday for comments."



 

While we await a full report, an examination of available sources. Oddly the PIC, VO, or Flight Director of the session are not interviewed, just bystanders. Looks like a new ~50m2 wing. That the roof actually breeched indicates deadly force. Possible world-record kite-thump. Police took a "Polish attitude". That's pretty serious.

Bing translation from Dutch-

Parachute screen collapses at grocery store: ' A huge blow '  

A paraglider's fallen sliding screen | Photo: Hoogvliet Valkenburg

VALKENBURG-Employees and customers of supermarket Hoogvliet on the main street in Valkenburg were shocked on Thursday afternoon. They heard ' a huge bang ' around 16.00 hours, when suddenly a screen of a parachute crashed on the roof. ' We really thought that something very bad happened. '
In the case of a paraglider, all kinds of cables and ropes were tied. Some of them ended up on the roof of the supermarket. Lisa van den Bosch (19) worked at that time behind the checkout. "We heard a huge blow," she says. ' We thought: Something really bad is happening, the roof is falling out. But luckily it was. '
There was a hole in the roof, because a few plates were falling from the ceiling. Although it was busy, no one was injured, says Lisa relieved. ' Everyone remained quiet, no one went out. Of course it has gone all the time and everyone wondered what was going on. I have never experienced anything like that. '
Two houses away
The police came to take Polish altitude. The part of the parachute came two houses away in a garden. The occupant was not there at that time, reporting several neighbors. The paraglider would have been unmanned and came from the former airfield Valkenburg.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27306 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Re: Latest Indian AWES Developer (Kerala ROCKS)
The principal researcher is Sobin Sabu Thankachan, Research Associate at International Centre for Technological Innovations, researching on Airborne Wind Energy Systems (AWES). A congratulations to Sobin and invitation to know TR and work with kPower has been sent.

Here is a more detailed page with nice video-

New innovations in flying kites are disrupting wind energy research - Sobin Sabu Thankachan






 

India may well rule AWE. Restricted funding and superior kite traditions are possibly the most competitive natural selection factors. Fun Facts- Kerala is the birthplace of advanced mathematics. kPower depended on Keralan T.R. Viswanathan of UTexas EE for early mentorship and inspiration, including the study of kite suitability to harvest Kerala's famously tall coconut trees. Kerala ROCKS.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27307 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Cheapest Power Kite Yet ($20USD 2.5m2) !!!
Thanks to Sobin's team in Kerala for sourcing a parafoil power kite at 1/4 of the price of Pansh, which is about 1/2 price of elite brands ($8/m2 !).

Its a three-line rig, so it does more than two-line, almost as much as four-line (Cl can be modulated, flight stopped-reversed, balanced killed, but no "coordinated turning"). Design and build is a bit crude, but does the job. Expect higher quality soon at this new rock-bottom price-point. Hong Kong exporter-



Sobin implemented the third line as a foot pedal.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27308 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2019
Subject: Great KAP Site- Deep Techne
Lots of KAP state-of-the-art and pilot-kite history. Andrei of AirHES makes an appearance at the bottom of the huge page. 

KAP pilot lift prizes maximum stability, with good lift and flying angle. Note the mesh vents that Christian Becot added to aft Sutton keels, shifting even more pilot kite vertical area forward just as KiteLab has advocated to AWE teams (some, like eWind. TwingTech, and Energkite, with zero vertical area forward, just aft vertical area; very unstable).
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27309 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
Yes Doug,

Joe understood since a long time that kites don't go with wind energy for electricity generation at utility-scale.
So kites for shade and other uses are investigated. I think it is a correct option.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27310 From: dave santos Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
Pierre is mistaken in thinking that electrical generation and other uses of kites are somehow mutually exclusive.

Joe has never made the same error in reasoning.



 

Yes Doug,


Joe understood since a long time that kites don't go with wind energy for electricity generation at utility-scale.
So kites for shade and other uses are investigated. I think it is a correct option.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27311 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: KiteSledging Icecaps in Style
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27312 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Kevin Langeree


Kevin Langeree

kiteboarder

kitefoiler

------------------------------------------

Two-media FFAWE   ,  air-air ,   air-water

Traction

Transportation

Kited-wing controls
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27313 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
Pierre, it was not clear what you declared for me.  But I will here aim to clarify my position:

Fully, without doubt, energy kite systems AWES have the potential to generate electricity at utility scale.
And also, energy kite systems AWES have the potential to do thousands of other good practical works besides generation of electricity.   This forum invites profound development of AWES for electrical generation and other good practical works.    http://www.energykitesystems.net 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27314 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
Dave and Joe are right. 
Kites are good for confetti.
  1. Kites are good for fish confetti
  2. Kites are good for cat confetti
  3. Kites are good for dog confetti
  4. Kites are good for rhinoceros confetti
  5. In conclusion kites are better than HAWT because
  6. HAWT are not good for confetti
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27315 From: dave santos Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
Pierre overlooks that HAWTs make a confetti of bird slaughter and make industrial power. AWE has made confetti drops for public festivals, but could someday power the world, without contradiction.

This is actually a great topic for anyone interested in advanced aerodynamics. Where it will lead in AWE is an open hope.





 

Dave and Joe are right. 

Kites are good for confetti.
  1. Kites are good for fish confetti
  2. Kites are good for cat confetti
  3. Kites are good for dog confetti
  4. Kites are good for rhinoceros confetti
  5. In conclusion kites are better than HAWT because
  6. HAWT are not good for confetti
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27316 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
Joe, 

You wrote: "Fully, without doubt, energy kite systems AWES have the potential to generate electricity at utility scale."
Please can you support this statement? What are the proves of that?

Then you wrote: "And also, energy kite systems AWES have the potential to do thousands of other good practical works besides generation of electricity."

I understand that kites are good for all. I would wish they (or other sorts of AWES) are good to generate electricity at utility scale in a viable way.  

Generally the endless enumerations you provide no longer comprise electricity generation. So I can deduce you no longer believe for this task concerning kite systems. Are we saying that nuclear power plants are good for sending confetti?

I
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27317 From: dave santos Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
PierreB, You have to give due time for JoeF's proof to emerge. Fermat's last theorem took centuries to finally prove.



 

Joe, 


You wrote: "Fully, without doubt, energy kite systems AWES have the potential to generate electricity at utility scale."
Please can you support this statement? What are the proves of that?

Then you wrote: "And also, energy kite systems AWES have the potential to do thousands of other good practical works besides generation of electricity."

I understand that kites are good for all. I would wish they (or other sorts of AWES) are good to generate electricity at utility scale in a viable way.  

Generally the endless enumerations you provide no longer comprise electricity generation. So I can deduce you no longer believe for this task concerning kite systems. Are we saying that nuclear power plants are good for sending confetti?

I
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27318 From: dave santos Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
Lets be clear that what JoeF is basically reasserting Etzler's original claim that civilization could be powered "by means of kites", and that PierreS is unable to prove otherwise.



 

PierreB, You have to give due time for JoeF's proof to emerge. Fermat's last theorem took centuries to finally prove.

On ‎Thursday‎, ‎July‎ ‎11‎, ‎2019‎ ‎03‎:‎03‎:‎46‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, pierre-benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


 

Joe, 


You wrote: "Fully, without doubt, energy kite systems AWES have the potential to generate electricity at utility scale."
Please can you support this statement? What are the proves of that?

Then you wrote: "And also, energy kite systems AWES have the potential to do thousands of other good practical works besides generation of electricity."

I understand that kites are good for all. I would wish they (or other sorts of AWES) are good to generate electricity at utility scale in a viable way.  

Generally the endless enumerations you provide no longer comprise electricity generation. So I can deduce you no longer believe for this task concerning kite systems. Are we saying that nuclear power plants are good for sending confetti?

I
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27319 From: dave santos Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Kevin Langeree
There is some doubt on the New Forum about whether KiteSurfing can be seen as AWE. This is a good opportunity to clarify the physics. 

To estimate kitesurfing Max Power, when the kitesurfer launches upward one can assume ~100kg mass and use the kite pro as a ~2m scale reference, and use the videogrammetric time base to calculate F=ma in terms of classic lifted mass formula of 550lbs lifted 1ft in 1sec in a 1G field. Measure the fast lift pop-up phase for max power, not the less-energetic gliding phase.

To estimate kitesurfing Max Energy measure the max height achieved for the 200kg mass (mass x gravity x height).

In fact the power kite derived from kite sports is the TRL9 COTS baseline to compare any other AWE concept to.









 


Kevin Langeree

kiteboarder

kitefoiler

------------------------------------------

Two-media FFAWE   ,  air-air ,   air-water

Traction

Transportation

Kited-wing controls
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27320 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
Pierre, it seems to me that your tone is becoming simply unnecessarily negative via ploy of the non-sequitur. Your deduction has an error in it; mentioning other applications and exploring historical roots to wings involved in AWE is no proof that electrical generation is out of sight.   Electrical generation is in sight during the studies. 

Electrical generation by energy kite systems remains a high focus of my professional publishing. Lessons within other kite applications may serve electrical generation. The publishing on a kite application that is without electrical generation logically does not put any stop to interest and investment toward electrical generation.  

    Drag by large kite systems hydroturbines set on a water-based ship and get utility-scale electricity. Simple and direct.  But many of us reach also for other means for land, sea, and even air-air FFAWE for electrical generation. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27321 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
Joe, a kite energy system for confetti is an admission of failure in regard to its expected purpose, leading to a quite negative consideration about what is its potential. I hope there are better opportunities.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27322 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
PierreB, you missed my entry on confetti:   I brought in confetti as an arena (one of many) for discovering some historical roots of traverse-to-flow tumbling, looping, flipping wings to face the invention-patent soup concerning such wings that feed kiting, VAWT, and some aspects of AWE.    You seem to be missing the topic by simply getting stuck on confetti in general.     
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27323 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
Joe,
I don't care about the historic of kites for confetti.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27324 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
In detail, an AWES that would serve the confetti industry is AWE game. Mentioning a good work for AWES is no admission of anything against other good works of AWES.   You are welcome to post only on electrical generation while refraining from posting on AWES doing other good works; that may be an excellent habit for you.   

1. DaveS mentioned the time-honored dropping of confetti at celebrations. 
2. AWES might work to pressurize air tanks that in turn might be used to launch confetti. 
3. AWES might bring in mechanical power to drive machines that would cut confetti. 
4. etc. ...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27325 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
Pierre,
     Now we know.  Thank you. 
When your AWES breakthrough occurs, we may use an AWES to drop some confetti over your home and person in celebration!
     Are you interested in whether or not some early professionals in confetti recognized the traverse-to-flow flipping/looping/tumbling wings among there designs?  Notice that some confetti patents explored various cuts of paper to give various flight effects; such may have been seeds for VAWT used alone or in kite systems for doing other good works like electrical generation. 
Best,  
   Joe
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27326 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
Joe and Dave,

You conduct an AWE forum, not a catalogue of useless things.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27327 From: dave santos Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
Pierre, 

Why bother following these topics if you don't like them and can't find value in them?

Aviation has always taken inspiration from modest examples like confetti. They are not an "admission of failure", but a sign of intelligence. Leonardo was not admitting failure by studying the flight of falling paper in his notebooks, only showing brilliance.

We see wild success in AWE, year by year, a dream coming true in our expected timeframe. Sure, some AWE ventures are predictable losers, but kite tech really is progressing by every known metric. Only you are "admitting failure", if you can't imagine AWE fulfilling Etzler's vision.

------------ 

Back on topic-

Paper aerodynamics a very cool tradition, not just toy flight. Human flight properly began with the paper-maker Montgolfier brothers and their paper flying machine, because they noticed something about confetti-like pieces of paper.

In 1990's I did FTTWDDW studies using simple helical paper strips rolling DW, which are close to what JoeF is after here. Lets also keep RoyM's Skybow ribbon wing in mind.



 

Joe, a kite energy system for confetti is an admission of failure in regard to its expected purpose, leading to a quite negative consideration about what is its potential. I hope there are better opportunities.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27328 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: The Truth About Electric Planes

The Truth About Electric Planes


===================================
Some AWE reflections:    
??
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27329 From: dave santos Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
Dropping confetti by kite really is one more AWE case, if not a major instance. Its a working method of certain show-kite pros (dropping candy too).

More pertinent is to consider confetti seriously as an aerodynamic class. We are all learning here, so unusual educational examples are fair game, especially to show students how to think creatively about flight.

Confetti can comprise conventional glider and autogiro designs, but Leonardo identified unsteady paper aerodynamics as interesting. Working out all the dynamical variants is a respectable study. An advance in the art would be designs that perform novel motions not seen before.

One of my old School Outreach Principles-of-Flight Demos was to drop a paper "helicopter" with a paper glider circling it at equivalent velocity. The showmanship is to take two bits of plain paper and quickly form them for flight and release them before the students expect anything to happen. They cheer wildly to see such a sudden feat, and themselves learn to do it.



 

Pierre, 

Why bother following these topics if you don't like them and can't find value in them?

Aviation has always taken inspiration from modest examples like confetti. They are not an "admission of failure", but a sign of intelligence. Leonardo was not admitting failure by studying the flight of falling paper in his notebooks, only showing brilliance.

We see wild success in AWE, year by year, a dream coming true in our expected timeframe. Sure, some AWE ventures are predictable losers, but kite tech really is progressing by every known metric. Only you are "admitting failure", if you can't imagine AWE fulfilling Etzler's vision.

------------ 

Back on topic-

Paper aerodynamics a very cool tradition, not just toy flight. Human flight properly began with the paper-maker Montgolfier brothers and their paper flying machine, because they noticed something about confetti-like pieces of paper.

In 1990's I did FTTWDDW studies using simple helical paper strips rolling DW, which are close to what JoeF is after here. Lets also keep RoyM's Skybow ribbon wing in mind.

On ‎Thursday‎, ‎July‎ ‎11‎, ‎2019‎ ‎04‎:‎48‎:‎18‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, pierre-benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


 

Joe, a kite energy system for confetti is an admission of failure in regard to its expected purpose, leading to a quite negative consideration about what is its potential. I hope there are better opportunities.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27330 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
Dave,

Your topic about confetti is not interesting. As you don't understand why this is not interesting I inform you.

Reading your enumerations is as uninteresting as reading a telephone directory, except that a telephone directory is useful when these enumerations are not.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27331 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
NATIONAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE
FOR AERONAUTICS
TECHNICAL MEMORANDUM
No. 1201
By Paul Dupleich
Translation of "Rotation par Chute Libre des Ailettes Rectangulaires
de Forme Allongee." Publications Scientifiques et Techniques du
Secretariat d'Etat a l'Aviation, No. 176, 1941
a
-raw
NACA
Washington
Sr.
a
April 1949
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27332 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
And?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27333 From: dave santos Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: The Truth About Electric Planes
Alpha ELectro is the best of classic aviation wisdom and revolutionary E-flight. 

While AWE ventures like Joby Aviation first futzed with marginal E-VTOL, the more expereinced Slovenian developers took the most conservative flight configuration choices and "nailed it". The same Joby E-VTOL "energy drone" design choice error has now been taken up by many teams, who don't imagine AWES take-off and landing on runways, but hope for giant E-VTOL platforms offshore, and all sorts of unproven assumptions about safety, reliability, and cost. 

Its not a surprise that no "drone-like" electric aircraft is yet certified Airworthy, and that "energy drone" AWES developers must face years of painful crash statistics, until the due pace of aerospace progress finally resolves inherent critical issues.

One could already equip an Alpha Electro for banner-towing, and use the method to raise up kites into useful wind, but only as a demo-stunt, since step-towing a kite up with an electric surface winch is hard to beat (high TRL COTS).

That's "the truth about electric planes" in the AWE context.


 

The Truth About Electric Planes


===================================
Some AWE reflections:    
??
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27334 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/11/2019
Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
Attachments :
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27335 From: dave santos Date: 7/11/2019
    Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
    "And" yet you still read these posts, Pierre, and at least find your personal complaints interesting to you, and even piano music for AWEC conferences.

    If Leonardo found falling paper was interesting, so do other like-minded lovers of flight.



     

    And?
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27336 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/11/2019
    Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
    Kite energy systems for confetti?! What a glorious deduction from this work! Didn’t you find an app even worse?
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27337 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/11/2019
    Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
    Dave, you have already some difficulties with AWE. So please leave the piano music alone. As for Leonardo da Vinci, just look at the Mona Lisa.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27338 From: dave santos Date: 7/11/2019
    Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
    I do "leave the piano music alone", its your special interest for AWE Conferences. I know the Mona Lisa, and even practice old master painting techniques. Trust me, Leonardo's DS notes are more pertinent to AWE than piano or painting.

    Consider a fine kite-network of Piezo-Confetti as a sort of AWES smart "Power-Cloud". We have not thought of that novel AWES architecture before now, even as you seem to despair.

    Expect many such AWES ideas to come true, just as they were born here, under JoeF's unmatched suggestive intuition, despite persistent nay-sayers. We work hard to prevent pessimistic AWE views from ever coming true.



     

    Dave, you have already some difficulties with AWE. So please leave the piano music alone. As for Leonardo da Vinci, just look at the Mona Lisa.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27339 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/11/2019
    Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
    It is not surprising that AWEC2013 conference in Berlin rejected your submission.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27340 From: dave santos Date: 7/11/2019
    Subject: Power Cloud (branching from Confetti topic)
    The latest potential "Betz beater" :)

    "Consider a fine kite-network of Piezo-Confetti as a sort of AWES smart "Power-Cloud"."

    Large scale kite networks are not a good fit to the small scales and high frequencies of Piezo bi-morphs. The Power Cloud AWES concept is a better match of unit-scale (confetti-scale). Hi voltage "lightning" would be a possible mode. How big could such clouds become? They could make energy from micro-turbulence no other AWES architecture is suited for.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27341 From: dave santos Date: 7/11/2019
    Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
    I was invited to do a poster, but withdrew, due to the shabby rejection of JohnO and AWEIA from conference planning, while GuidoL ran wild for the venture insiders. Even your piano stylings were accepted, but not JohnO, so KiteLab boycotted. 

    At least you follow the low-complexity Open AWE thinking here that AWEC conferences no longer represent. If you think AWE cannot succeed, the high-dollar AWE playboys should be most ashamed, not us. You know your place- you don't bother the AWEurope decision makers, who are more easily bothered than us.

    What about the Power Cloud? It took JoeF's confetti to suggest. Such ideas do not flow from the reeling-only playboys.



     

    It is not surprising that AWEC2013 conference in Berlin rejected your submission.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27342 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/11/2019
    Subject: Re: Early Looping Unmanned Gliders (tumbling-wing gliders)
    Nicola Zorzi
    November 2013
    Abstract
    The free fall of two-dimensional cards immersed in a fluid was studied using a deterministic and
    stochastic numerical approach. The motion is characterized by the fluid-body interaction described
    by coupling the Navier-Stokes and rigid body dynamic equations. The model’s predictions have been
    validated using both the experimental and numerical data available in literature.
    In the stochastic simulations, the fillet radius of the plate was considered a random variable characterized
    by a uniform Probability Density Function (PDF) introducing, in this way, some uncertainties in the
    plate’s trajectory. To take into account the uncertainties we employed the Non-Intrusive Spectral
    Projection (NISP) method based on polynomial chaos expansion. The analysis was focused on finding
    the ensemble mean trajectory and error bar for a confidence interval of 95% for both tumbling and
    fluttering regimes.
    Keywords: Falling plate, Fluttering, Tumbling, Uncertainty Quantification, Stochastic analysis
    ==========================
    References
     [1] C. K. Augspurger. “Morphology and dispersal potential of wind-dispersed diaspores of neotropical trees”. In: American Journal of Botany 73.3 (1986), pp. 353–363. 

    [2] James Clerk Maxwell. “On a particular case of the descent of a heavy body in a resisting medium”. In: Cambridge and Dublin Mathematical Journal 9 (1854), pp. 145–148.

     [3] Paul Dupleich. Rotation in Free Fall of Rectangular Wings of Elongated Shape. Tech. rep. 1201. NACA, 1941. 

    [4] H. J. Lugt. “Autorotation of an elliptic cylinder about an axis perpendicular to the flow”. In: Journal of Fluid Mechanics 99.04 (1980), pp. 817–840. 
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27343 From: dave santos Date: 7/11/2019
    Subject: Re: Power Cloud (branching from Confetti topic)
    Some credit for the Power Cloud AWES architecture goes to legendary AI pioneer, Hans Moravec, and his original ideas for aerosol swarms of flying nanobots. In Mind Children, first ed. 1988, Hans lays out his swarms and other wild predictions, now staples of SciFi-

    http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674576186

    It was an honor to discuss Han's famous Mind Children concepts with him, as a junior AI-robotics pioneer of that era, and owe similar personal and literary intellectual and inspirational debts to visionary giants like Verner Vinge, Rudy Rucker, Ralph Moser, and Forest Mims III.

    A Power Cloud could draw energy from flow, light, or heat gradients, and self-power its flight as free swarms or many-connected . All of the capabilities Hans envisioned for 2038 seem on track. Our knowledge of flow energy and kite methods help see how these technological miracles may work. There is abundant new state of the art in the world to bring to bear on Power Cloud technology.

    Starting at the small toy kite scale with current micro-robotics would allow proof-of-concept of many of Hans' ideas from 1988. Also seeing actively frustrated magnetic fields as a key. Large scale kite network swarms would be a new technological direction Hans himself did not see, to perhaps power the world. We did good related concept work on the Forum for Gabor Dobos' IFOs.

    Someday they may say, "looks kinda like confetti; wonder how they ever thought of that!", and the reader here will know how.


     

    The latest potential "Betz beater" :)

    "Consider a fine kite-network of Piezo-Confetti as a sort of AWES smart "Power-Cloud"."

    Large scale kite networks are not a good fit to the small scales and high frequencies of Piezo bi-morphs. The Power Cloud AWES concept is a better match of unit-scale (confetti-scale). Hi voltage "lightning" would be a possible mode. How big could such clouds become? They could make energy from micro-turbulence no other AWES architecture is suited for.