Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                          AWES 27040 to 27091 Page 432 of 440.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27040 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27041 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27042 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27043 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27044 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27045 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27046 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27047 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27048 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27049 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27050 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27051 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27052 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27053 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27054 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27055 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27056 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27057 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27058 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27059 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27060 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27061 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27062 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27063 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27064 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27065 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27066 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27067 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27068 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27069 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27070 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27071 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27072 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27073 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27074 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27075 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27076 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27077 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27078 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27079 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27080 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27081 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Kited lifter wing producing torque to drive electric generator scene

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27082 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: tinkerbits .... play all

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27083 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27084 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27085 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27086 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27087 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27090 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/2/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27091 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/2/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27040 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
Attachments :

    DaveS, Thank you for your condescending advice.

    PeterS

     

    From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
    Sent: Monday, July 01, 2019 2:41 PM
    To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

     

     

    The paraphrase is how you are heard and the disagreement is how you hear.

     

    Wait for data instead. You get way too worked up over VAWT claims on an AWE forum. Learn about kites more.

     

     

     

     
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27041 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
    Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)
    Attachments :

      DaveS, You believe that if the Danish description of the Betz limit is correct, then you extension of the Betz limit to other cases not covered by the Danish description must be correct. That is quite illogical.

      PeterS

       

      From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Monday, July 01, 2019 2:44 PM
      To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [AWES] Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)

       

       

      You too Peter. I rest on the Danish source.
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27042 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
      Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
      Attachments :

        DaveS, Non-sequitur.

        PeterS

         

        From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: Monday, July 01, 2019 2:47 PM
        To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

         

         

        The counter claim is that it's not.
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27043 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
        Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
        Attachments :

          DaveS, They are PhD mechanical engineers, so they might have a chance of making it sufficiently cheap and durable to make it practical. But it won’t be easy because the ALT contains a lot of moving parts.

          PeterS

           

          From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
          Sent: Monday, July 01, 2019 2:47 PM
          To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

           

           

          Let's hope they are mechanical wizards. It's got to be cheap and durable, not just wimpy.
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27044 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/1/2019
          Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
          PeterS,

          The patent is in French language. I provided two times the translation of some extracts that almost match the drawing. The principle is false. So the patent cannot be quite coherent. The same for all the variants and all patents.
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27045 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
          Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
          Attachments :

            PierreB,

            I accept that you base your rejection of the ALT on the words of the patent.

            Thank you for pointing out that I misunderstood what you said.

            We seem to be not making any progress, so I will join you in ending this discussion between us.

            PeterS

             

            From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
            Sent: Monday, July 01, 2019 3:06 PM
            To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

             

             

            PeterS,

             

            You just wrote:"...you seem to be saying that a VAWT blade, produces lift that acts upwind during the downwind blade pass. That is incorrect."



            I have precisely written the opposite I put again: "As the Active Lift points downwind during almost the entire rotation (excepted at 0° and 180° where there is only drag)". 



            It is not the first time you deform what you beleive read. By the same you don't understand the patent. That suggests you should learn to read. But by misunderstanding what I wrote you indirectly suggest I can be right about the conflict of forces, although I don't care of your lack of understanding.



            You wrote: "For the ALT, the gear system produces additional torque during both the upwind and downwind blade passes."

            No, you are wrong as a gear is only a mean of transmission, not a source of power.



            " Please study the animation"

            Please study the patent.
            Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27046 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
            Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
            Well you kinda had it coming. The ALT is how not to do AWE then, but a VAWT hope.

            Compare with the Power Kite.
            Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27047 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
            Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
            Attachments :

              PierreB,

              You are attempting to prove your point by repeating it, while also contradicting yourself

              You have acknowledged that the principle of Active Lift is real, as for reel-kites, and now you say that the principle is false. So I don’t know what you believe. But it doesn’t matter to me.

              We certainly agree that the patent cannot be quite coherent. So let’s just leave it at that and wait to see if they can demonstrate an efficient prototype.

              PeterS

               

              From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent: Monday, July 01, 2019 3:27 PM
              To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

               

               

              PeterS,

               

              The patent is in French language. I provided two times the translation of some extracts that almost match the drawing. The principle is false. So the patent cannot be quite coherent. The same for all the variants and all patents.
              Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27048 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
              Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)
              Yes, elongated turbine Cp is not predicted by Betz, as Betz proof is presented by the Danes.
              Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27049 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
              Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
              Not really; it's the answer demanded.
              Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27050 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/1/2019
              Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
              PeterS,

              Not only the discussed patent, although it is essential. I pointed the conflict of forces that you thought you had refuted by reversing my words. I precisely mentioned that the Active Lift points almost always downwind. 
              If you can fairly refute this, the refutation will be welcomed.

              Concerning the other versions (V1, V2, other patents) the author himself has refuted them.
              Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27051 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
              Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
              Peter, It would help if you consider power-to-weight of the ALT, or make any connections to AWE. 

              This is not the ideal place for non-AWE topics and claims that cause a flame war.
              Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27052 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
              Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
              Unfortunately PhDs tend not to be great machinists, and mechanical engineering is not aerodynamics orientated.

              They would not have much hope in AWE.
              Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27053 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/1/2019
              Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
              PeterS,

              You try to play with the words. As I already corrected, the principle of Lift is real, as for reel-kites. The principle of Active Lift is only a fiction.
              Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27054 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/1/2019
              Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
              Dave,

              I agree about the power-to-weight concern. But I wanted to try more about the principle. More I read the documents, more I thought the principle doesn't work. So it is useless (if even it is possible) to try it in AWE field.
              Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27055 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
              Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)
              Attachments :

                DaveS, Betz not predicting something is not evidence for that something being true. You don’t seem to understand that.

                PeterS

                 

                From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                Sent: Monday, July 01, 2019 3:45 PM
                To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [AWES] Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)

                 

                 

                Yes, elongated turbine Cp is not predicted by Betz, as Betz proof is presented by the Danes.
                Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27056 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
                Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                Attachments :

                  PierreB, Version 3 does not have a conflict of forces. So there is nothing to refute. I can’t refute a problem that does not exist. If you think there is a conflict, please show the vector diagram of the ALT showing that conflict.

                  The component of lift of the blades of the ALT that produces Active Lift is that component which points directly downwind – almost always except for the transition points at 0 and 180 degrees. If this point does not make sense to you, then I can’t help you to understand your error.

                  Lecanu did not refute V1 and V2. They work to produce extra torque, but not much. He showed that V3 is much more efficient than they are.

                  PeterS

                   

                  From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                  Sent: Monday, July 01, 2019 3:49 PM
                  To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

                   

                   

                  PeterS,

                   

                  Not only the discussed patent, although it is essential. I pointed the conflict of forces that you thought you had refuted by reversing my words. I precisely mentioned that the Active Lift points almost always downwind. 

                  If you can fairly refute this, the refutation will be welcomed.

                   

                  Concerning the other versions (V1, V2, other patents) the author himself has refuted them.

                   

                   

                   
                  Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27057 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
                  Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                  Attachments :

                    DaveS, Empty claims prove nothing.

                    PeterS

                     

                    From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                    Sent: Monday, July 01, 2019 3:49 PM
                    To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

                     

                     

                    Not really; it's the answer demanded.
                    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27058 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
                    Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                    Attachments :

                      DaveS, I explained the connection and you have repeatedly ignored it.

                      PeterS

                       

                      From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                      Sent: Monday, July 01, 2019 3:55 PM
                      To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

                       

                       

                      Peter, It would help if you consider power-to-weight of the ALT, or make any connections to AWE. 

                       

                      This is not the ideal place for non-AWE topics and claims that cause a flame war.
                      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27059 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
                      Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                      Attachments :

                        DaveS, Again you demonstrate that you miss the point entirely.

                        PeterS

                         

                        From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                        Sent: Monday, July 01, 2019 3:42 PM
                        To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

                         

                         

                        Well you kinda had it coming. The ALT is how not to do AWE then, but a VAWT hope.

                         

                        Compare with the Power Kite.
                        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27060 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
                        Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                        Attachments :

                          PierreB, You’re statement makes no sense. Active Lift is the component of lift acting directly in the downwind direction. If you insist that it does not exist, then you can’t explain how reel-kites can work.

                          PeterS

                           

                          From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                          Sent: Monday, July 01, 2019 4:03 PM
                          To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

                           

                           

                          PeterS,

                           

                          You try to play with the words. As I already corrected, the principle of Lift is real, as for reel-kites. The principle of Active Lift is only a fiction.

                           
                          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27061 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
                          Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                          Attachments :

                            DaveS, You are trying to derogate (put down) Lecanu and his associates for not being into power kites. That is ridiculous.

                            PeterS

                             

                            From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                            Sent: Monday, July 01, 2019 3:59 PM
                            To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

                             

                             

                            Unfortunately PhDs tend not to be great machinists, and mechanical engineering is not aerodynamics orientated.

                             

                            They would not have much hope in AWE.

                             
                            Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27062 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/1/2019
                            Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                            PeterS,

                            Reel-kites are lift devices, not more, not less.
                            Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27063 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/1/2019
                            Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                            PeterS,

                            "Active Lift is the component of lift acting directly in the downwind direction."

                            You repeated it numerous times and if you know read you know I agree.
                            So I am waiting for your refutation of the conflict of forces as I mentioned.
                             
                            Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27064 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/1/2019
                            Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                            PeterS,

                            You wrote: "They work to produce extra torque, but not much. "

                            Wrong.
                            Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27065 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
                            Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                            Attachments :

                              PierreB,

                              You are not making sense. Reel-kites use lift in a particular way. Explaining them only as using lift makes them no different from other kites that use lift.

                              You seem to have ignored what I said.

                              PeterS

                               

                              From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                              Sent: Monday, July 01, 2019 5:33 PM
                              To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

                               

                               

                              PeterS,

                               

                              Reel-kites are lift devices, not more, not less.
                              Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27066 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
                              Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                              Attachments :

                                PierreB, There is no conflict of forces to refute. Please show that conflict you are talking about in a vector diagram.

                                PeterS

                                 

                                 

                                From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                                Sent: Monday, July 01, 2019 5:36 PM
                                To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

                                 

                                 

                                PeterS,

                                 

                                "Active Lift is the component of lift acting directly in the downwind direction."



                                You repeated it numerous times and if you know read you know I agree.

                                So I am waiting for your refutation of the conflict of forces as I mentioned.

                                 
                                Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27067 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/1/2019
                                Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                                Mentioning loss due to translational movement of Active Lift in regard to Darrieus Turbine.
                                Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27068 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
                                Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

                                PierreB,

                                I took a look at the patent. It mentions 5 drawings. They are not included. How can you judge the validity of the patent without the drawings?

                                I referred to the drawing next to the Abstract. The Abstract inaccurately describes that drawing. It claims that the stationary wheel rotates with the blades. It does not.

                                PeterS
                                Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27069 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
                                Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                                Attachments :

                                  PierreB,

                                  Please show me your evidence.

                                  PeterS

                                   

                                  From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                                  Sent: Monday, July 01, 2019 5:49 PM
                                  To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

                                   

                                   

                                  PeterS,

                                   

                                  You wrote: "They work to produce extra torque, but not much. "



                                  Wrong.
                                  Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27070 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/1/2019
                                  Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                                  PeterS, 

                                  Please quote an extract of any scientific paper mentioning "Reel-kites are Active Lift devices".
                                  You cannot as reel-kites are lift devices, not more, not less. What else?
                                  Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27071 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/1/2019
                                  Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                                  PeterS,

                                  It is already done, with a link on a figure.
                                  Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27072 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
                                  Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                                  Attachments :

                                    PierreB. Too laconic. I can’t figure out what you are responding to.

                                    PeterS

                                     

                                    From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                                    Sent: Monday, July 01, 2019 5:52 PM
                                    To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

                                     

                                     

                                    Mentioning loss due to translational movement of Active Lift in regard to Darrieus Turbine.
                                    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27073 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/1/2019
                                    Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                                    No Peter,
                                    You judge the patent is not understandable or even valid in several messages. Now you discover 5 drawings. They are in the patent.

                                    Note for a long time I finished with your story of ALT. You insist to continue.I cannot help you as you don't understand the patent and now you don't understand that you don't understand the patent.
                                    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27074 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
                                    Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                                    Attachments :

                                      PierreB, You ignored what I said.

                                      To expect to find a reference among papers about reel kite that mentions Active Lift is preposterous. It’s a new concept for VAWT. As I recall, you were the one who pointed out that reel-kites use Active Lift, and I agreed with you.

                                      Consider that pilot kites tend to stay in one position. They need to develop lift in order to fly. But they do not produce torque by moving downwind. So pilot kites, as opposed to reel-kites, would not be described as using Active Lift.

                                      PeterS

                                       

                                      From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                                      Sent: Monday, July 01, 2019 5:56 PM
                                      To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

                                       

                                       

                                      PeterS, 

                                       

                                      Please quote an extract of any scientific paper mentioning "Reel-kites are Active Lift devices".

                                      You cannot as reel-kites are lift devices, not more, not less. What else?
                                      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27075 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
                                      Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                                      Attachments :

                                        PierreB, What is already done? I received no ling to a figure.

                                        Peter

                                         

                                        From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                                        Sent: Monday, July 01, 2019 6:01 PM
                                        To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

                                         

                                         

                                        PeterS,

                                         

                                        It is already done, with a link on a figure.
                                        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27076 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/1/2019
                                        Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                                        On their website; "why a new version".
                                        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27077 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/1/2019
                                        Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                                        So you cannot. Reel-kites are lift devices, lift AWES if you prefer. 
                                        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27078 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/1/2019
                                        Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                                        Yes, I posted a message with a link to a website with a figure with green arrows for lift. Do you remember now? I precise these green arrows point almost downwind. And so-called Active Lift point also downwind as we know, or as you don't know I know. So the force goes against the 1/2 rotation. 
                                         
                                        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27079 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/1/2019
                                        Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                                        PeterS,
                                        This conflict of forces exists also with current Darrieus-like turbines. It is one cause of the lack of efficiency of VAWT in regard to HAWT, and also the stress on the blades. P. Lecanu mentions forces and stresses in his website. With so-called Active Lift the conflict of forces would be aggravated instead of being reduced.
                                        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27080 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/1/2019
                                        Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                                        PeterS,
                                        The blade pushes downwind during the rotation. So the half part of the stationary gear goes almost upwing while the blade pushes downwind on the gear, (partially) preventing the rotation.
                                        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27081 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/1/2019
                                        Subject: Kited lifter wing producing torque to drive electric generator scene

                                        Kited lifter wing producing torque to drive electric generator scenes: 


                                        A.  Have water hull fit with hydroturbine; have kited lifter wing go downwind or tacking crosswind pulling the hull with hydroturbine to make electricity. Tether might be fixed length or variable to interact with wind at various altitudes. This scene may continue as long as there is wind. This is a two-media kite system: air and water. The hull-hydroturbine is the opposing wing to the air kited lifter wing.  


                                        B. Have ground generator fixed to Earth; have kited lifter wing draw out line producing torque to drive the electric generator.  This has the limiting factor of tether limits. Reset costs. 


                                        [ ] Hence can we then write that kited lifter wing going downwind may produce torque?
                                        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27082 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/1/2019
                                        Subject: tinkerbits .... play all
                                        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27083 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
                                        Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)
                                        The toy turbine is true. The Betz idealization is also true, excepting elongation. 

                                        It's a matter of happily seeing both truths in scientific harmony
                                        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27084 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
                                        Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                                        Empty ALT claims? Good question. Let the burden of proof fall on the inventor.
                                        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27085 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
                                        Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                                        The point is AWE techne.
                                        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27086 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
                                        Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                                        AWES engineering art does not inform ALT design, something to agree about.

                                        The power kite is the baseline class, even for those working on competing  WECS.

                                        We know more about the hapless ALT than they do about AWE. Not a complaint, pity them for missing AWE.
                                        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27087 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
                                        Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                                        We can reason that "active lift" is not static lift, and if it's a new lift principle, it therefore must be a subset of dynamic lift, being more narrow in scope.

                                        I see ALT DL design intent, but no new lift principle. The gears should be belts, but it would still be a marginal curiosity turbine, if KIS rules.
                                        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27090 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/2/2019
                                        Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                                        Attachments :

                                          PierreB, The other 4 drawings are not in the copy of the patent that you sent to me. I do not know why they are not included. Maybe they were lost in transit.

                                          PeterS

                                           

                                          From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                                          Sent: Monday, July 01, 2019 6:11 PM
                                          To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

                                           

                                           

                                          No Peter,

                                          You judge the patent is not understandable or even valid in several messages. Now you discover 5 drawings. They are in the patent.

                                           

                                          Note for a long time I finished with your story of ALT. You insist to continue.I cannot help you as you don't understand the patent and now you don't understand that you don't understand the patent.

                                           

                                           
                                          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 27091 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/2/2019
                                          Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                                          Attachments :

                                            PierreB, Non-sequitur.

                                            PeterS

                                             

                                            From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                                            Sent: Monday, July 01, 2019 6:15 PM
                                            To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

                                             

                                             

                                            On their website; "why a new version".