Hi Joe,


I, in no way give up the Spiralairfoil Patent,I do give up freely to any and all the "concept" of extracting power from lifters that i'm try'n to convey to the group.

Dan'l

Attachments :

 Dear Joe and Group,
 
        I hope this helps clarify what I've been try'n to convey in words more clearly.  Please note that I will be putting up a short video on youtube to help tie the concept together for folks. Thank you.
 
                                                                                                            Dan'l

---

Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you. Try Bing now.

Hi Joe,

Looks much better. Thanks for all you do, I appreciate, truly.

Dan'l

..just wondering if list coding people are aware of the Acado Toolkit (MPC and else ..).
There is a powerkite control example in the 'ocp' folder under examples..
http://acadotoolkit.org/

Attachments :

Dear TR,   Vijay is Cc:ed these micropower "tree" ideas based on your idea since they can also drive a low rpm generator such as KLD is developing. Besides trees, the techniques apply to low kilowatt wind energy using kites or terrain to loft simple fabric wings.   Two ultra-simple mechanisms exist for the tree-energy app.     A bit of bad news- trees are inherently a aero-inertial dampener network, so the swaying of a trunk or limb is an attenuation of the original wind power & only really kicks in with stronger winds. Nevertheless a forest can be rigged as a "micro" wind-energy field by running multitudes of lines from tree tops to ground anchors. Multilines attached orthogonal to the guys can drive a common shaft equipped with freewheel ratchets. Its an asynchronous power fan-in network to a central generator.   Will be in TX this winter & will demo the above.   dave santos KiteLab Ilwaco, WA Austin, TX     Misc. Notes:    - Some tree species sway more than others. - Planted groves may be especially effective. - Tree "towers" can live for hundreds of years. - Slings are required where lines attach to trunks.   --- On Thu, 4/16/09, T.R. Viswanathan <tviswanathan@ece.utexas.edu   Thanks for the note.   We have been busy since the semester is in full swing.   If I find a student interested in Kite flying we will put him/her on a project.   Please keep in touch.   TR

A truely green idea......exept in Texas right now the trees are all brown. Bastrop would be a good place to set up a test system. I had most of my trees next to the house tied back so they would not beat against the house. Before I did they would hit with so much force that it would shake the second floor enough to make waves in my soup bowl. Pine trees are probably the best in Tx for their tall but narrow and flexable trunks.

-brooks

I couldn't find it.

---

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: gb2910@gmail.com
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 16:20:39 +0200
Subject: [AirborneWindEnergy] Acado Toolkit from OPTEC

 

Hi Dave,
 
 
          Thanks for offering the help in many ways! Question is how to proceed? hmmm! Much of what you wrote is dead on true, however in testing I've had the Spiralairfoil over 1400 rpm. Really very scary when I think of it standing next to it. In the patent application we allowed for all kinds of varibles to be incorparated.
           At this time I'm searching for the flex shaft system, the only material I've used thus far is PEX tubing, however if there is some other material that's better please let me know. I posted on youtube.com, go to spiralairfoil and you should see a video titled "spiralairfoil solution for Airbournewindenergy group" I was able to get a picture of it on the ground before the battery in my camcorded died, however later the same day I did fly the bird and she performed well, least to say I was as happy as when I was a kid flying my scotts sled.
            What is the highest angle lifter that you know of? Single line of coarse, i was wondering if some kites are computer driven with pull lines in em to change thier shapes in flight?
            Well Dave, thanks again for all the advice I truly appreciate your consideration and others.
 
                                                                                             Dan'l
 
                                                                                              

---

To: airbornewindenergy@yahoogroups.com
From: santos137@yahoo.com
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 10:10:15 -0700
Subject: [AirborneWindEnergy] "Spiral Airfoil" Physics [1 Attachment]

 

Hi Dan,   Lifter kites actually lift better if they pull harder from lower in the window at higher AoA than flying the highest angles. More wind & drogue on a kite bridled down pulls hardest.   To select a lifter requires matching to payload & wind. Extra lift is money in the bank. They are so cheap you can try various models- Gomberg, Premier, HQ, New Tech, etc.   The torsion tube will be a severe weight penalty. You might find straight thin wall PVC works. If you need a bit more stiffness pressurize with air (but not too much!). Bamboo might serve for a demo, but torsion tubes are a dead end, because you want to go high.   Much better is to run a continuous loop of line from a capstan on the turbine to one on the ground gen, but it can be tricky at first to keep the loop in order. Fishing poles for fairleads help keep tension. You can also put a crank on the turbine & pulse power down the line if the wobble is tolerable. A small balance mass helps.   Your original formed plastic sheet turbines will be too heavy to grow much larger. Fabric framed with fine rod (bamboo or carbon fiber) will serve up to kilowatt scale. Beyond that fully soft turbines will scale way up.   Yes, small turbines turn very fast & scary. They should be designed to hit a person without injury by ultra low mass & soft compliance.   Good Luck!   daveS

Hey Gang,

  the continous loop concept is something I have been drawn to but it always comes down to the problem of length. If I ever come up with a solution for a variable dementional loop like a slack pulley array or variable diameter slack storage pulley the concept may prove usefull. I may have a solution for the other problem with multi line systems; dealing with variable wind direction.

  I have some ideas for using a weighted set of pulleys in a triagular frame that would create the tripod for the tipping lever idea but the lines from the weighted tripod all travel down to the ground in parallel to the lifter line and connect to the generator/lever/crank all at a single point so no need for spreading out a bunch of anchors across a large area and when the wind changes direction it does not require any rearrangement of lines. Still lots of other issues to consider but I just thought I would toss yet another idea into the dream machine.

  I'm still too busy with my biz to work on any prototypes till after Halloween (my busiest part of the year) but I'm hoping to be able to get my test bed system together before the end of the year. The main goal is to develop a set of them for evaluating all of the different ideas with a standard testing device with a good data aquisition computer so we can put some real numbers to the ideas.

-brooks

There certainly is application for such technology and growing demand for it.
 
 
Harry
 

---

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: brooksdesign@peoplepc.com
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 12:54:57 -0500
Subject: RE: [AirborneWindEnergy] "Spiral Airfoil" Flying Tips

 

Carpenter forwarded continueous loop in his patent. He recited much prior art in balloon lifted loops. Recitation is worh study.

The following is not loop comprehensive, but in the spirit of Brooks' drive for options:

• FanBelt  or Loop Tether  or LoopTether
  • LoopTether or single loop tether through one ground generator or "FanBelt"  where aloft actions cause the tethering belt to drive the generator
     
  • Single-loop through two ground pulleys. Gear at lofted spinning kite-lofted wing drives the loop; the driven loop rotates ground-station generator or pump.
     
  • The main tether could be a double-line (two parts of tensed loop).
     
  • A main tether plus a loop brings three lines occurring
     
  • "run a continuous loop of line from a capstan on the turbine to one on the ground gen"  DaveS concerning alternative to torsion tube driving ground-based generator as he was weighing how torsion tube method limits system to low altitude winds.
     
  • Contrast stay-aloft-spinning driver systems from the method where kites go up and go down in a loop; both have a driven loop, but the wings-stay-aloft method is quite distinct from the wings rotate up and down via changes of angle of attach of the wings.
     
    • Contrast two generic fanbelt AWE systems:
      1. Wings stay aloft driving a long loop line.
                A. Loop is the tensed tether of the AWE system.
                B. Loop is distinct from the main AWE system tether.
      
      2. Wings on a loop rotate from a high altitude point to a lower altitude point via airfoil pitch changes; that loop drives generator or pump directly or alternatively drives a gear aloft to a second loop that incorporates the situation in "1." above. .  
       
    • References and developments of the fanbelt method are invited: Notes@EnergyKiteSystems.net    

 

Ok,

   I will have to dwell on that last one for a while to determine the best comeback considering all of the possible effects to the space time continuity. Actually I have considered something like what I would call a donut tube loop but never could figure out how to make a donut pulley to harness it.  I'll study the rest to gain full understanding. One other option I have been working into my platform is a set of high capacity drum winches that operate LIKE a loop from a turbine but when one spool nears its end it triggers the turbine to reverse direction and starts pulling on the other spool. That way you can generate power while both spools are paying out line as the kite rises to altitude. My auto clutchcontrol system will regulate line length and tension as the wind changes speed. My special secret actuator for the kite end weighs almost nothing and can be  powered by the wind itself and triggered by a tiny R/C servo so the weight penalty is not really an issue.
   On my time schedule....I just got an email from Patricia Field in NY. They were the ones that made me overnight famous on SaturdayNightLive before 9/11 put us all out of biz. They want to put in a huge order for Halloween so this is probably the last you will hear from me for a while but at least I should have bucks and time to work on stuff when you get to Tx.

-brooks

hello everyone sorry i havent posted in a long while been very busy
i have a flight ready stilletto 97 from performance designs its a very fast parachute but still very strong im wiling to sell it very cheap or trade i just whant it to help someone and to further the airborne wind energy study im a parachute rigger by trade i come across many used parachute some should be burned right away some are it still fine shape his canopy i have is very small not the smallest but close i would only sell this to someone who can jump it normally its that fast but i believe this could help some one out in with their research if anyone is interested let me know


jerry

Hi Jerry,

Could you give some dimensional detaitls?

Thanks Dan'l

There are 79 pages in the patent filed in 2001 and approved in 2003. Inventor: Douglas Spriggs Selsam. Aka Doug Selsam He has non-AWE and AWE embodiments of the serpent. This thread could unfold and discuss statments, engineering, and physics involved in expressions of those pages.
http://www.selsam.com is his home page.
EnergyKiteSystems.net has a new tracking folder on Selsam
http://energykitesystems.net/Selsam/index.html
with videos of an AWE emodiment. And a substantial intro notice is placed in the September Members-sent notices at
http://www.energykitesystems.net/notices/2009sep.html

Please form thread replies by deleting unneeded redundant copy; thanks.

In my first reading of the patent, I did not find the embodiment that would have Selsam serpents as branches off a main EKS tether where branched torsions are converted to driving main-tether loops for driving ground generator; this extension might then let very high altitude winds to be tapped with Selsam torsion serpents.

Welcome Doug Selsam.
Right now in September, he is open to field helpers in Southern California as he readies to be hi-def film recorded by Discovery Channel.

Cheers,
JoeF

hi Jerry,   The Stiletto is very cool chute, a highly technical wing for an advanced AWE experimenter to play with. Some ideas to test-

Hi Dave and Group,
 
              Where ever it goes it's gonna be a blast getting there, thanks for all your insights and knowledge base.  I'm a wee bit of a mav but without the poli"tick"al leaning, I do not want to think outside the box, just off the planet, always looking for  new and better cost effective ways, my failure have been many, can't be afraid of failure it leads to higher insights, albeit R and D cost yah every time. dave are you talking bout the black plastic plumbing line or the straight coupled white plastic. The black, hmmm, it may be too soft and in the heat may weak'n. The wht. is brittle in cold weather, plus all those fittings and glue. My origal thought was the pneumatic line for nail guns, it's reinforce with a mess and is incredibly lite weight, weighs almost nothing, amazing stuff really, must come in many diameters for this project to work.
 
                                                                                                     Dan'l
 

---

Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 09:07:36 -0700
From: santos137@yahoo.com
Subject: RE: Diagramof Spiralairfoil Solution
To: spiralairfoil@hotmail.com
CC: joefaust333@gmail.com

Dan,   Nylon may actually perform worse (weight x flex) than salvaged thin-wall PVC, especially if you want to experiment cheap. Compare a sample & see. 525 bucks would be throwing $ away. The best engineers agree, one simply can't fly high or beat the lowest cost solutions with torsion tubes.   Also consider comparing a conventional turbine blade by direct test so you truly know you have beat it by weight, cost, &/or power. Carved foam with a buried spar is good & will not be easy to beat! Stay small & make many experiments. A simple De Prony brake is best measuring technique.   You may not have noticed but leading AWE scientist Dave Lang was targeting the spiral foil for pessimism & i wrote a pretty favorable spin on it especially to slow him down. You have a chance to prove the pros on the list wrong, but it will require a lot of homework. Consider focusing on a radically ultralight fabric version to beat the grim physics (weight v. swept disc area) the Langs will throw at you. An actual working experiment will help keep the wolves quiet.   dave

---

Hotmail® is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast. Try it now.

"technical" kite, in fun kiting, just means any tricky to fly wing that doesn't have Winnie-the-Pooh printed on it.   i grew up on dzs (Drop Zones), particularly the legendary Pelicanland, & was at Z-Hills when the square canopies first arrived (Jaibert lived nearby & Snyder introduced them at a big winter meet). Skydivers are the "right stuff" to fly AWE hands-on at altitude.   My dad a couple of years ago suggested dzs as natural AWE experimental centers. How about using big kites to as elevators to haul jumpers up? Sure would save on av fuel. A WSIKF friend (Scott Slater) has Osborne's #2 wing, a 2500 sq ft parafoil, the baby of the vast monster that killed Eideken, & it could lift jumpers. Of course "manlifting" is taboo in fun kiting, but even my ma has been hauled aloft under a raggedy paracommander in Mexico.   Here is a key KiteLab finding- multiple kites on multiple lines can be redundant enough for the safety margins required by extreme sport standards. We could stay high & not come down as often ;^). Seriously, i wanna start living part-time in the sky without engine noise. Lets see, if i score five more HQ Power Sled XXL 9.0s...

So Jerry,

  are you any relation to the Colemans from Globe, Az , my dad Bob's hometown?

-brooks..............Coleman

This sounds like AWE should be a prime candidate.

Tonko's Wind Energy Bill
http://tinyurl.com/o2l5s7

The bill requires the Secretary of Energy to carry out a program of research and development to improve the energy efficiency, reliability, and capacity of wind turbines; optimize the design and adaptability of wind energy systems; and reduce the cost of construction, generation, and maintenance of wind energy systems. Specifically, this program would include:

-Examination of new materials and designs to make larger, lighter, less expensive, and more reliable motor blades
-Technologies to improve gearbox performance and reliability
-Automation, materials, and assembly of large-scale components
-Low-cost transportable towers greater than 100 meters in height
-Advanced computational modeling tools, control systems, blade sensors and advanced generators
-Wind technology for offshore applications
-Methods to assess and mitigate the effects of wind energy systems on radar and electromagnetic fields
-Wind turbines with a maximum electric power production capacity of 100 kilowatts or less
-Technologies to improve transmission from remotely located renewable resource rich areas

The bill would also create a demonstration program to measure wind energy performance that would include the full range of wind conditions across the country. That data would be then used as part of the research and development program. It also requires that the demonstration programs be conducted in collaboration with private industry.

The bill authorizes $200 million dollars per year from 2010 through 2014 for these programs.

Hi Darin,

I'm sorry, I did not see the diagram earlier. Great approach!
Still lifting the Genny calls for a large lifter, alternating current down to the ground, alternating will carry a distance but weaken the further the length yah go, I always liked the counter rotating blade thingy, I am planning to have counter rotation on the ground based Spiralairfoil wind turbine, that's be a fun project too. Please forgive for not responding sooner.

Dan'l

Does any one know the Fed and State laws concerning Altitude and kites for power?

Thanks, Dan'l

AC is only slightly worse than DC at distant transmission.  The advantage of easy transformation of voltage outweighs those losses to make it very popular.  Even NYC has converted from DC.

In California you're restricted to a tower of 30-feet in height. They do ignore kites HOWEVER the FAA requires that high-altitude kites be lit up at night to avoid collisions with low-flying aircraft.
 
Using fiber-optic lines along the tether would allow for the tether to be lit up at night and the fiber may actually carry enough light to light up the kite.
 
 
Harry
 

---

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: spiralairfoil@hotmail.com
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 14:40:31 +0000
Subject: [AirborneWindEnergy] Altitude Restrictions

 

I can tell you after trying to interest the federal labs for several years now, they will always have an excuse to do NOTHING.
I have applied to NREL for grants.
They sub out the technical review to people who have been told that today's turbines are already the answer, therefore they refuse to look at new technologies.
It doesn;t matter HOW many MILLIONS they have - they will waste them.
Witness NREL's upcoming $60 million dollar blade-bending machine: Blades that big should be filled with helium or replaced with thousands of smaller blades using a tenth of the total material, but all they can fathom is: blades bend - we need to measure them.
Bear in mind that the single upwind rotor on a pedestal with gearbox is a 1000-year-old design.
In house here, we call NREL the National Redundant Excuse Laboratories.

ARPA-E? Pulling out all the stops? In your dreams.
We applied for a grant to develop a system that would use 1/10 the material per megawatt, got the standard form letter (no idea of such a large response sorry - overwhelming)...

then we hear thru the grapevine: ARPA-E believes wind energy is a mature technology, so they will not look at it - they are interested in other fields. So there you have it: A refusal to even LOOK.
Why couldn;t they have said upfront that they were not interested in wind energy at ARPA-E? Well it would have looked bad. They could care less how much time they waste of those who MIGHT actually be doing the job they are SUPPOSED to be doing... clueless bureaucrats without direction... I feel sorry for them.

Here's a video of an NREL scientist witnessing a scheduled demo of a multi-rotor wind turbine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exjjMm_h8r4

The NREL scientist was invited to ride along and view the instruments showing 3000 watts from a 5-foot diameter turbine, but declined to get in and view the instruments. He said "I believe you". I spent 2 weeks of full-time labor to bring my turbine, mounted on a truck, to where NREL scientists could view the output at their own convenience, and the result was a refusal to look at the instruments - "head in the sand" - like the Pope refusing to look thru Galileo's telescope.

We're wasted in total over a year of man-hours on these people who refuse to open their eyes, and it will not continue.
I challenge them with ALL their billions to outpace me with a few thousand. They are the ultimate disappointment. The hope of our country and the hope of the world - an empty bag - fixated on conferences, meetings, policies, and endless blah blah blah, probably few of them have ever built a turbine, let alone any new kind of turbine. They are all talk like 99% of the rest of humanity. I call it "The All-Talk Format" - most people are on it.

They call themselves scientists and engineers: I say "show me all the turbines you are building: where are they?" As a nation, we've put ALL our chips on the table over clean energy, relying on specifically THEM to leave no stone unturned, and yet the ivory tower will not even look at promising new approaches, even if you build it, instrument it, drive it right up to them and invite them to look! Incredible lack of curiosity, especially from supposed top innovators. All very sad.

Yet it is nothing new: the key is to realize that innovation has always come from the ground up. They key is to see the pattern and avoid timewasters under whatever mantle. The more credentials, the less likely to innovate.
I'll put Google, BP, T-Bone Hickups, and a lot of the rest of these large organizations in the same basket - lip service up the ying-yang but in the end a refusal to participate. Google contacted me then seemed scared that I had so many solutions - you could tell they were terrified of having to get a project started and do any work or be responsible for any progress or results. Ask Google what their results are so far with all that Google dough.

Anyway the California Energy Commission has stepped up to the plate so far. And people are buying the solutions. I'm looking for collaborators of all types.
Thanks
Doug Selsam
Selsam Innovations
2600 Porter Ave. Unit B
Fullerton, CA 92833
714-992-5594
http://www.selsam.com

Great rant, Doug.

Hi Grant and all,


Thanks for the responces. So how to put up a hybrid lifter that'll power a one meg genny, enough for 750 homes, The lifter will be tensarity with gas lift in structure. the lifter will have a small genny on board, high voltage (28 awg coils)to power led beacons up and down the tether, for the flex shaft to be lit power will com from genny with slip rings. Granted some areas will be advantageous and others won't. Ever watch a sea turtle gliding through the sea, well the lifter will be along those lines of thought. Suley the height restriction can be adapted to the new age after carbon based feuls subside. "Wolrd in motion" Jackson Browne.

Thanks Dan'l

Hi Doug,

I now no longer feel so all alone after reading your post. I hear yah, try'n to change things into a more eco and economic practicle reality has proven more daunting then could be imagined, it's like try'n to turn the titanic before the impact, The traditional tri blade as is has been bout by the status quo. I do believe you are right when you say true "change comes from the bottom up" and I say "when it gets darkest the stars will come out". I love your concepts.

Dan'l




In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, "dougselsam" <doug@...

Several members have noted a wish that priorly posted messages be not repeated in whole when a reply is formed. The quickness of forming a reply makes it too easy to neglect to delete the former note which is already available to everyone. So, an experiment will be done: All messages will be moderated where such full former notes will be deleted. When a careful core sentence or so is kept for focus, that will stay. Such will save space and time. Let me know your thoughts on the experiments. Thanks.
JoeF

Hi Joe & Group,
 
Those of us who use have discovered that Hotmail will often not allow for the deletion of a former message.
 
 
Harry
 

---

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: joefaust333@gmail.com
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:19:23 +0000
Subject: [AirborneWindEnergy] Forum moderation note: Prior notes not repeated in full

 

 

http://www.energykitesystems.net/notices/2009sep.html

Updates will be posted.  

 

Discussion open:
Auto-Oriented Wind Harnessing Buoyant Aerial Tramway by Doug Selsam, 1979
Starters: Find text about 75% down the page at:
"Doug Selsam has been designing the most advanced wind turbines in the world since 1979!"
http://www.speakerfactory.net/wind_old.htm
http://www.energykitesystems.net/Selsam/index.html#laddermill

[ ED: Key title phrases:
"Wind Harnessing Buoyant Aerial Tramway"
"Auto-Oriented Wind Harnessing Buoyant Aerial Tramway" ]

Welcome OrthoKiteBunch
Pierre Benhaïem
His method and arrangements are open for discussion.
First contact gave
videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSWORXEy3tE
AND
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1xKZuah7Z4

which see its info note there in English and in French.

Good morning,

I join links (under my name) of videos with explanations of the new concept of kite generator.

Best regards
Pierre Benhaïem

[ED:
http://www.energykitesystems.net/notices/2009sep.html
which see.

Attachments :

Hi Dave, Joe and Group,              Dave, you are right about the Spiralairfoil Water Turbine.  I've added a picture that shows a few variations of the concept; note the smaller elongated leading set of blades is binary and can stretch towards infinity in a flow of energy, i.e. wind and water steam etc.   Do you Have a picture of the Spiralairfoil that  you used in the stream/ocean for us to see and can you post it; thank you.   Dan'l  Re: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/AirborneWindEnergy/message/310 of 20 Sep 2009    santos137

Attachments :

varidrogue.jpg

--- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, dave santos <santos137@... Nice!

Nice!
variDrogue for AWE
variDrogue driven counterweighted boom AWE

Very downwinding, stable, quick, low-investment.
DaveL will have some long-tether comments.
WPI and Selby might dance on this direction.

Aim for passive zeroing drag of drogue cycling into strong drogue drag. Very scalable even for low and slow winds.

... Ah AWE!

I have a design using this arrangement.
I will have to dig out the drawings but the main part I was working on was the trip mechanics.
A ratchet flip-flop that rides on the lifter suspension line and controls the drag element via 2 control lines.
I'll send pics when I find them.
-brooks

VariDrogue midline under severe strong high lifter might also be the solution for serial launching of hang gliders. Let the variDrogue drawn tether down to hang glider launch pad; clip in; zero-out variDrogue drag and let main system tether lift the hang glider to altitude; hang glider pilot releases at will; the main tether continues its stroke on the groundstation moor-point pumping/generating lever arrangement.

The starkly stable lifter and mid-line variDrogue will permit high density use of the airspance. AWE farms with these will use less land. The open ocean is now ready. Hydrogen kytoons can be considered; let the kytoon be designed so it self-recharges its hydrogen from split atmospheric moisture.

Passive controls are close on this direction. Then large protype demo will be. Then millions.

Hard-towered turbines, make way!