Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                          AWES 26940 to 26989 Page 430 of 440.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26940 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26941 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Cyclo-kite involves some DS ??

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26942 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26943 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26944 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26945 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26946 From: dougselsam Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Cyclo-kite involves some DS ??

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26947 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26948 From: dougselsam Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26949 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26950 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26951 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26952 From: dougselsam Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26953 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Cyclo-kite involves some DS ??

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26954 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26955 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26956 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26957 From: dougselsam Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Cyclo-kite involves some DS ??

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26958 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26959 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26960 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26961 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26962 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26963 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26964 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26965 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26966 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26967 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26968 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26969 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26970 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26971 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26972 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26973 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26974 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26975 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26976 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26977 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26978 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26979 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26980 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26981 From: gordon_sp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Improved Minesto

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26982 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26983 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26984 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26985 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26986 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26987 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26988 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26989 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26940 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)
Attachments :

    DaveS, You simply do not understand your error.

    PeterS

     

    From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
    Sent: Monday, July 01, 2019 10:47 AM
    To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: RE: [AWES] Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)

     

     

    It is unfair and incorrect to not accept Betz math as formally based on a swept plane.

     

    Can't you see both sides? We all know the "Betz can't be beaten" folks, that the John Bell quote fits.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26941 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
    Subject: Re: Cyclo-kite involves some DS ??
    We have a lot more kite knowledge than Wikipedia. We use WP to launch into multidisciplinary directions by hypertext like was never possible before.

    The whole Net is our oyster. It's a knowledge golden age. WP is a golden pearl.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26942 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
    Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
    Attachments :

      DaveS, I don’t doubt your sincerity. I reject your analysis.

      PeterS

       

      From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Monday, July 01, 2019 10:48 AM
      To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

       

       

      It's my sincere position, call it what you want.
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26943 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
      Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)
      Attachments :

        DaveS, You once again demonstrate that you did not understand what I told you.

        PeterS

         

        From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: Monday, July 01, 2019 10:49 AM
        To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [AWES] Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)

         

         

        I understand Betz like the Danish source. 

         

        Don't you?
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26944 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
        Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
        Maybe they are better at hardware. I just did not guess they could build well, if all they have so far is the ALT self-publishing.

        What's needed is independent validation.
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26945 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
        Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)
        Attachments :

          DaveS, You incorrectly paraphrase what I said.

          PeterS

           

           

          From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
          Sent: Monday, July 01, 2019 11:23 AM
          To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [AWES] Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)

           

           

          This thread is about Doug's "elongated equivalent" to ""beat Betz"".

           

          PeterS does not see how. We are patient in explaining until he does.

           
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26946 From: dougselsam Date: 7/1/2019
          Subject: Re: Cyclo-kite involves some DS ??
          You use Wikipedia as a crutch to embellish your entire attempt to create an illusion that posting on the internet all day every day is getting you to a goal of developing a more economical wind energy solution.


          ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26947 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
          Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)
          Doug overlooks that Betz plane is the defined swept disc, and the extra energy a real elongated turbine draws in comes from outside the Betz disc.

          This is real.
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26948 From: dougselsam Date: 7/1/2019
          Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
          Maybe you should hold your breath until these "Professor Crackpot" jokers come up with their next excuse, which you can then use as your next excuse...


          ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26949 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
          Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)
          I understand the error of wishing Betz is more than the swept disc plane.
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26950 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
          Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
          You seem to reject Danish and WP analysis too Peter.

          They use planar math.
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26951 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
          Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)
          You seem to say the ALT works.
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26952 From: dougselsam Date: 7/1/2019
          Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)
          Nope, I think you got that one wrong (again, as usual...) too. 
          My best advice is you give up "arguing" with me about ANYthing.
          Save it for someone gullible enough to think you even know what you are talking about, or are capable of understanding what others say, to even be ABLE to argue with them.
          What you say I "overlooked" is exactly what I explained.
          Hopeless...
          Maybe you should just get a job or something.


          ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26953 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
          Subject: Re: Cyclo-kite involves some DS ??
          The kite is our "crutch", Doug. That's how we got this far. WP helped. This Forum helped.

          What do you lean on?
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26954 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/1/2019
          Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
          Peter,

          You wrote: "Lecanu predicts that an H-rotor with a Cp of .42 will gain 20% to 30% in power due to Active Lift."
          This is a statement without any support. So the following is nonsense. You only play with words. 

          I am not able to describe the principle of Active Lift as I am not able to describe the principle of perpetual movement: both are wrong.  

          Even "Active Lift" is a doubtful expression. The correct word is "lift".  
          So I return to the known description of the reeling kite as a lift device such it was already mentioned. 

          240 messages about a wrong principle: it is enough! STOP!

          PierreB
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26955 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/1/2019
          Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
          No Peter,

          Waiting for the prototype makes sense.
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26956 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
          Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
          Attachments :

            DaveS, Active Lift, as proposed in Version 3 of the ALT, converts a component of the lift vector that is normally not used into additional torque and power.

            Whether Active Lift is equivalent to dynamic lift depends upon how you define “dynamic lift”. Dynamic lift usually refers lift created by an airfoil moving through a fluid. It does not include the conversion of that lift into torque.

            PeterS

             

            From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
            Sent: Monday, July 01, 2019 12:04 PM
            To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

             

             

            We mean the ALT. 

             

            Active Lift just seems an equivalent term to Dynamic Lift.

             

            The friction of the gearing takes away power, a dominant drag factor at low wind velocity.
            Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26957 From: dougselsam Date: 7/1/2019
            Subject: Re: Cyclo-kite involves some DS ??
            What a laugh.  "That's how you got this far"?????????????????????????
            Nowhere?  That is exactly my POINT!


            ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
            Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26958 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
            Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)
            Doug, If you post on my topic, don't ask me to give up replying to you. Go ahead and post to a Forum and then give up, as you would wish for others.

            This is a cool topic, how elongated turbines beat Betz as a swept disc only.
            Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26959 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
            Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
            The autogyro converts dynamic lift to torque.
            Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26960 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
            Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
            Attachments :

              DaveS, What you are saying is illogical. They introduce a new concept, including an extensive mathematical proof and an animation, and you fault them for not already having proven the concept by testing a prototype. That implies you know of only one way to invent something, which is to build it, and not bother with other methods, such as mathematical analysis and simulation.

              Independent validation is necessary in most cases, so you are recommending the obvious. But you are putting the cart before the horse.

              PeterS

               

              From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent: Monday, July 01, 2019 12:15 PM
              To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

               

               

              Maybe they are better at hardware. I just did not guess they could build well, if all they have so far is the ALT self-publishing.

               

              What's needed is independent validation.
              Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26961 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
              Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)
              Attachments :

                DaveS, You misunderstand what Betz implies and does not imply.

                PeterS

                 

                From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                Sent: Monday, July 01, 2019 12:20 PM
                To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [AWES] Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)

                 

                 

                Doug overlooks that Betz plane is the defined swept disc, and the extra energy a real elongated turbine draws in comes from outside the Betz disc.

                 

                This is real.
                Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26962 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/1/2019
                Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                Peter,

                No. There is loss of efficiency in regard to a turbine of type Darrieus. That confirms what I wrote by "the author states V1 and V2 don't work in an efficient way".: 
                 From "why a new version: For a turbine like type Darrieus , the relative velocity W is the combination of the fluid velocity V and the speed U of rotation of the turbine.

                For the "Active Lift Turbine" version v1 and v2,the translational movement changes the velocity combination.

                It has an additional T translational speed which reduces the angle of incidence. (incident angle: angle between U and W).

                When the angle of incidence is lower, the force is reduced.

                And V3 doesn't solve anything because it leads to another failure (conflict of forces) I mentioned.
                Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26963 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
                Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)
                Attachments :

                  DaveS, You don’t understand the Betz limit in terms of what it does and does not include.

                  PeterS

                   

                  From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                  Sent: Monday, July 01, 2019 12:21 PM
                  To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [AWES] Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)

                   

                   

                  I understand the error of wishing Betz is more than the swept disc plane.
                  Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26964 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
                  Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)
                  The claim stands that a toy turbine can exceed Betz by sufficient elongation, given that Betz specified a planar limit.
                  Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26965 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
                  Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                  Attachments :

                    DaveS, Quote me.

                    PeterS

                     

                    From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                    Sent: Monday, July 01, 2019 12:25 PM
                    To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

                     

                     

                    You seem to reject Danish and WP analysis too Peter.

                     

                    They use planar math.
                    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26966 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
                    Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)
                    Attachments :

                      DaveS, I say that the Active Lift Turbine should work as predicted by Lecanu, which is to produce a 20% to 30% in torque and power over a fixed-blade H-rotor.

                      PeterS

                       

                      From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                      Sent: Monday, July 01, 2019 12:26 PM
                      To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [AWES] Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)

                       

                       

                      You seem to say the ALT works.
                      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26967 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
                      Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                      Let's see who else validates the "new concept" and how. We agree I see no new principle of Lift.
                      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26968 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
                      Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)
                      Is not about Betz "implying". The swept plane is literal.
                      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26969 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
                      Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)
                      Let Betz be what the Danish publish. I understand that.
                      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26970 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
                      Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                      There is no quote where you accept WP and the Danish source for Betz explanation. That's why it seems you don't accept them.
                      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26971 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
                      Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)
                      PeterS, you prediction is noted. 
                      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26972 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
                      Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                      Attachments :

                        PierreB,

                        In one of their papers, that is what they say.

                        Now you are saying that Active Lift is perpetual motion. So you are claiming that the ALT will work, although not very well, which means that you believe in perpetual motion machines.

                        I have explained why they use the term Active Lift. It is shorthand for the component of the lift vector that acts downwind to create additional torque. It can be more accurately defined, but that is sufficient.

                        I agree, STOP!

                         

                        From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                        Sent: Monday, July 01, 2019 12:27 PM
                        To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

                         

                         

                        Peter,

                         

                        You wrote: "Lecanu predicts that an H-rotor with a Cp of .42 will gain 20% to 30% in power due to Active Lift."

                        This is a statement without any support. So the following is nonsense. You only play with words. 



                        I am not able to describe the principle of Active Lift as I am not able to describe the principle of perpetual movement: both are wrong.  



                        Even "Active Lift" is a doubtful expression. The correct word is "lift".  

                        So I return to the known description of the reeling kite as a lift device such it was already mentioned. 



                        240 messages about a wrong principle: it is enough! STOP!

                         

                        PierreB
                        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26973 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
                        Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                        Pierre is saying no such thing as perpetual motion, that the ALT does not work by an imaginary principle.
                        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26974 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
                        Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                        Attachments :

                          DaveS, Your comment is ambiguous. What are you disagreeing with?

                          PeterS

                           

                          From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                          Sent: Monday, July 01, 2019 12:30 PM
                          To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

                           

                           

                          No Peter,

                           

                          Waiting for the prototype makes sense.
                          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26975 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
                          Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                          PeterS I have disagreed on several points. The main one is whether the ALT has a breakthrough for AWE or a distraction.
                          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26976 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
                          Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                          Attachments :

                            DaveS, An autogiro rotor creates auto-rotation of the blades due to the thrust component of lift. The rotor turns freely. It does not create torque. Goodness, is there no end to what you misunderstand?

                            PeterS

                             

                            From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                            Sent: Monday, July 01, 2019 12:40 PM
                            To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

                             

                             

                            The autogyro converts dynamic lift to torque.
                            Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26977 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
                            Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                            Attachments :

                              PierreB, There is no conflict of forces in Version 3. That is what you do not understand. You are certain that there must be a conflict because, as I have already explained to you multiple times, you do not understand vector components. You mistakenly believe that one detracts from the other. You keep asserting something that is not true.

                              PeterS

                               

                              From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                              Sent: Monday, July 01, 2019 12:43 PM
                              To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

                               

                               

                              Peter,

                               

                              No. There is loss of efficiency in regard to a turbine of type Darrieus. That confirms what I wrote by "the author states V1 and V2 don't work in an efficient way".: 

                               From "why a new version: For a turbine like type Darrieus , the relative velocity W is the combination of the fluid velocity V and the speed U of rotation of the turbine.

                              For the "Active Lift Turbine" version v1 and v2,the translational movement changes the velocity combination.

                              It has an additional T translational speed which reduces the angle of incidence. (incident angle: angle between U and W).

                              When the angle of incidence is lower, the force is reduced.

                              And V3 doesn't solve anything because it leads to another failure (conflict of forces) I mentioned.

                               
                              Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26978 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
                              Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)
                              Attachments :

                                DaveS, Yes, your incorrect claim, that you have repeated many times, is on the record.

                                PeterS

                                 

                                From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                                Sent: Monday, July 01, 2019 12:47 PM
                                To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: RE: [AWES] Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)

                                 

                                 

                                The claim stands that a toy turbine can exceed Betz by sufficient elongation, given that Betz specified a planar limit.
                                Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26979 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
                                Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                                Where is the VAWT engineering forum discussion of the ALT? They should be able to add insight to what kite energy folks have posted. We know flight factors best, that VAWTs need better power-to-weight to compare with power kites. This the wrong forum for overlooking flight, like the ALT concept does.
                                Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26980 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
                                Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                                Attachments :

                                  DaveS, Again, you paraphrase incorrectly what I said.

                                  PeterS

                                   

                                  From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                                  Sent: Monday, July 01, 2019 12:50 PM
                                  To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

                                   

                                   

                                  Let's see who else validates the "new concept" and how. We agree I see no new principle of Lift.
                                  Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26981 From: gordon_sp Date: 7/1/2019
                                  Subject: Re: Improved Minesto
                                  Attachments :
                                    Sketch for Improved Minesto:
                                    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26982 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/1/2019
                                    Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                                    PeterS,

                                    You wrote: "Now you are saying that Active Lift is perpetual motion."
                                    No,  I am saying : "I am not able to describe the principle of Active Lift as I am not able to describe the principle of perpetual movement: both are wrong." 

                                    You wrote: "...  that acts downwind to create additional torque"
                                    That is the problem. A force acting downwind will create additional torque during half of the rotation, but withdrawns torque during the other half part of the rotation.
                                    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26983 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
                                    Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)
                                    Attachments :

                                      DaveS, You misinterpret the Betz limit.

                                      PeterS

                                       

                                      From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                                      Sent: Monday, July 01, 2019 12:51 PM
                                      To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: RE: [AWES] Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)

                                       

                                       

                                      Is not about Betz "implying". The swept plane is literal.
                                      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26984 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
                                      Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)
                                      Attachments :

                                        DaveS, You misunderstand what the Betz limit implies and does not imply.

                                        PeterS

                                         

                                        From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                                        Sent: Monday, July 01, 2019 12:53 PM
                                        To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: RE: [AWES] Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)

                                         

                                         

                                        Let Betz be what the Danish publish. I understand that.
                                        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26985 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
                                        Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                                        Attachments :

                                          DaveS, Again you mis-state what I said.

                                          PeterS

                                           

                                          From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                                          Sent: Monday, July 01, 2019 12:55 PM
                                          To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

                                           

                                           

                                          There is no quote where you accept WP and the Danish source for Betz explanation. That's why it seems you don't accept them.
                                          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26986 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
                                          Subject: Re: Toy Wind Trubines that beat Betz (review)
                                          It has not been shown incorrect under the Danish Betz proof.
                                          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26987 From: Santos Date: 7/1/2019
                                          Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                                          PeterS, you have claimed it's not the person's fault if they do not understand you.
                                          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26988 From: Peter Sharp Date: 7/1/2019
                                          Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                                          Attachments :

                                            DaveS, If you wish to state what PierreB believes and does not believe, please do so.

                                            PeterS

                                             

                                            From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                                            Sent: Monday, July 01, 2019 1:01 PM
                                            To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

                                             

                                             

                                            Pierre is saying no such thing as perpetual motion, that the ALT does not work by an imaginary principle.
                                            Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26989 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/1/2019
                                            Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT