Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                          AWES 26740 to 26789 Page 426 of 440.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26740 From: dougselsam Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26741 From: dave santos Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26742 From: dave santos Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26743 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26744 From: dave santos Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: DS Aeronautics Updated

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26745 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26746 From: dave santos Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26747 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26748 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26749 From: dave santos Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: DS Aeronautics Updated

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26750 From: dave santos Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Reeling AWES as ALT-principle VAWTS

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26751 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26752 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26753 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26754 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26755 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26756 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26757 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26758 From: dave santos Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26759 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26760 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT [1 Attachment]

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26761 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26762 From: dave santos Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26763 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26764 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26765 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26766 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26767 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26768 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26769 From: dave santos Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Cheaper Better Power Kites- the party never ends

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26770 From: dave santos Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26771 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Crater flying for SDCA?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26772 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26773 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26774 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Crater flying for SDCA?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26775 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Crater flying for SDCA?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26776 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Crater flying for SDCA?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26777 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Crater flying for SDCA?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26778 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/29/2019
Subject: Re: Crater flying for SDCA?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26779 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/29/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26780 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/29/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26781 From: dougselsam Date: 6/29/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26782 From: dougselsam Date: 6/29/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26783 From: dave santos Date: 6/29/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26784 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/29/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26785 From: dave santos Date: 6/29/2019
Subject: Giant Edo Kite in stable sustained flight

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26786 From: dave santos Date: 6/29/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26787 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/29/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26788 From: dave santos Date: 6/29/2019
Subject: Canary Islands entering AWE R&D

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26789 From: dougselsam Date: 6/29/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26740 From: dougselsam Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
Yeah and it's been a long struggle for cars with sideways wheels too, mostly due to intolerance and the inherent meanness of people who dare to question the concept.  And those cars that don;t need to aim because they have wheels facing every direction - brilliant!  Until you need to see where you are going - wait - mirrors!  Lots of mirrors!  And houses tilted over so the roof faces to one side - the world wants to see them work, and by golly, it's coming soon.  Walking sideways too is about to become a big thing.  Just be patient.  And soon gliders will loop instead of circling to catch thermals.  Don't worry, Wikipedia will figure it out for you.


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

DaveS, VAWT actually are gaining ground. But there are many kinds of VAWT, and most of them are inherently limited by dynamic stall, a narrow and peaked Cp curve, and a low Cp max.

Progress is very slow. There are multiple reasons for that.

As for “the losses do sum overall”, you are wrong. I just gave you evidence that you are wrong and you deliberately ignored it.

PeterS

 

 

 

From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups..com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 11:24 AM
To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

 

 

Of course my comments apply to VAWT blades, as stated. The losses do sum overall.

 

Just one of many reasons supposed for VAWT's not gaining ground in the commercial HAWT revolution.

 

On ‎Friday‎, ‎June‎ ‎28‎, ‎2019‎ ‎01‎:‎13‎:‎12‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@... 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Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26741 From: dave santos Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring
Attachments :
    Ok, this is your goofy standard of serious proof. Agreed that in a counterfactual scenario of Flying Elephant proofs, Pierre rightly notes that DS could apply. Its true that we can see DS/DL effects hide in the natural motions of Culp's OL shipkites, as closest similarity to a "flying elephant" in AWE.

    The formal claim emerging is that DL-DS effects are always part of the complete equations of motion and energy of all wings flying in gradients.

    Despite the heckling, the aeronautical science is still moving down the AWES field. Heckling boost is analogous to DS boost of turbulence to a seagull, and also Pierre's invocation of his beloved Barbar, a pilot, one of us.


    Inline image




     

    I am serious. As an elephant is large, there is wind gradient between his ears and his paws. 
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26742 From: dave santos Date: 6/28/2019
    Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
    Cars had to adopt wheels that turn somewhat sideways to steer. That was universally adopted. Too much sideways capability would be a struggle to sell.



     

    Yeah and it's been a long struggle for cars with sideways wheels too, mostly due to intolerance and the inherent meanness of people who dare to question the concept.  And those cars that don;t need to aim because they have wheels facing every direction - brilliant!  Until you need to see where you are going - wait - mirrors!  Lots of mirrors!  And houses tilted over so the roof faces to one side - the world wants to see them work, and by golly, it's coming soon.  Walking sideways too is about to become a big thing.  Just be patient.  And soon gliders will loop instead of circling to catch thermals.  Don't worry, Wikipedia will figure it out for you.



    ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

    DaveS, VAWT actually are gaining ground. But there are many kinds of VAWT, and most of them are inherently limited by dynamic stall, a narrow and peaked Cp curve, and a low Cp max.

    Progress is very slow. There are multiple reasons for that.

    As for “the losses do sum overall”, you are wrong. I just gave you evidence that you are wrong and you deliberately ignored it.

    PeterS

     

     

     

    From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups..com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
    Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 11:24 AM
    To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

     

     

    Of course my comments apply to VAWT blades, as stated. The losses do sum overall.

     

    Just one of many reasons supposed for VAWT's not gaining ground in the commercial HAWT revolution.

     

    On ‎Friday‎, ‎June‎ ‎28‎, ‎2019‎ ‎01‎:‎13‎:‎12‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@... [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26743 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/28/2019
    Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
    Hi PeterS, 

    I complete what I wrote:
    "How the stationary wheel can transmit via the sattelite gear the lift force by yy' towards a generator, and the tangential force by xx' towards another generator, both forces coming from the same blade? 

    PierreB
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26744 From: dave santos Date: 6/28/2019
    Subject: Re: DS Aeronautics Updated
    Attachments :
      Add PierreB's Imaginary DS Mode (flying elephant) to the list (graphic attached), operating on the advanced engineering Imaginary (Complex) Plane.
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26745 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/28/2019
      Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring
      So Dave you agree that DS can apply to a flying elephant. I think you know an elephant is not a Cyclo-Turbine. So you can agree a Cyclo-Turbine doesn't work like a DS glider. Here is the proof Joe asked.
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26746 From: dave santos Date: 6/28/2019
      Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring
      No Pierre, not all DS cases are imaginary flying elephants. The cyclo turbine is real, with real DS effects. You do not offer any proof suited to JoeF's sincere request.

      The fact is, we can only make our predictions. PeterS can neither realistically prove his own claims nor demand proofs of others.

      But expert discussion of DS has advanced, as the record will show.




       

      So Dave you agree that DS can apply to a flying elephant. I think you know an elephant is not a Cyclo-Turbine. So you can agree a Cyclo-Turbine doesn't work like a DS glider. Here is the proof Joe asked.
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26747 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/28/2019
      Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
      Attachments :

        Hi PierreB,

        Both forces are transmitted to the same central shaft, but they use two different means (paths) to do that. There is only one generator needed.

        PeterS

         

        From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 12:05 PM
        To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

         

         

        Hi PeterS,

         

        Some details: 

        "Please note that the tangential force of the blades is transferred to the slide on the support arm" then the central axis (central shaft) xx'.



        "The downwind pressure on the blade is transferred to the satellite gear" then the axis yy'. Both axis are in the stationary wheel.



        "So the two forces transmit force to the central shaft in two different ways, not the same way." Not exactly as the lift force goes to the axis yy', and the tangential force goes to the central shaft (central axis xx'). 



        How the stationary wheel can transmit the lift force by yy' towards a generator, and the tangential force by xx' towards another generator, both forces coming from the same blade? 
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26748 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/28/2019
        Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring
        " not all DS cases are imaginary flying elephants."
        Which ones are not?

        "You do not offer any proof suited to JoeF's sincere request."
        I do it, it is known as the elephant proof.
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26749 From: dave santos Date: 6/28/2019
        Subject: Re: DS Aeronautics Updated
        More DS Notes-

        Flexing and stretching of an airframe (including tensile frames) by crossing gradients stores internal energy that is returned to DL-DS flight, as the airframe relaxes. All aircraft develop some thrust this way.

        DL-DS is not unique to free-flight as some seem to think. A bird or glider on a string can do DS if the string is managed so as not to interfere. All kites develop some DL in real wind, more so in favorable conditions.

        Gravity and Inertial Mass are big DS factors. 

        Gravity stores DS energy as potential energy of mass at altitude, which is returned in glide.

        An ideal or realtively massless aircraft model can still DS because of external inertial mass in wind and wake.

        High Re wind flow, dominated by inertial forces over viscous forces, favors DS over Low Re conditions.


         

        Add PierreB's Imaginary DS Mode (flying elephant) to the list (graphic attached), operating on the advanced engineering Imaginary (Complex) Plane.
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26750 From: dave santos Date: 6/28/2019
        Subject: Reeling AWES as ALT-principle VAWTS
        The topological and dynamic similarity is that Reeling AWES all rotate around a single central axis, their anchor stations, while extracting energy by the local sub-motions of their reeling cycles.

        The overall reeling VAWT motion is not steady rotation, its more a VAWT that falters with wind veering cycles. The ALT concept itself might go that path, of blades that only make power by local motion. The carousel can also be matched to ALT dynamics, and the differences are more in outer guise than inherent theory of operation.

        All this is not specific critique of ALT, reeling, etc., just identification of one-to-one topological cross-mapping between operative variants. 
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26751 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/28/2019
        Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
        Attachments :
        Hi PeterS,
        No, concerning the last patent I attach again.
        See page 6, here is a low level translation but good enough to show the two generators in their two respective axis:

        "This secondary axis is used to drive an electrical generator or other mechanism such as a pump.

        Similarly, the axis of rotation of the turbine allows to drive an electric generator or a mechanism other than a pump. The secondary axis, which is not confused with the axis of rotation of the turbine, recovers the lift forces while the axis of rotation of the turbine recovers the grid forces.

        These lift and weft forces are generated on the rotor wings by the hydraulic fluid.

        The tangential frame forces are in fact conventionally recovered at the axis of rotation of the turbine through the link arms while the normal lift forces are recovered through the coulis--sets satellite buckets/connecting rods/pinions at the secondary axis which is not coaxial to the axis of rotation of the turbine."

        Perhaps V3 is a little different as the central shaft is near to the stationary wheel instead of being in it. In my opinion all the versions are likely not workable as more efficient VAWT. Each version is changed because of a theoretical problem like the downwind motion of V1 reducing the incident angle, or other. 
        I am definitely not convinced.

        PierreB



        		   @@attachment@@
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26752 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/28/2019
        Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
        Attachments :
          Hi PeterS,

          I put again the last patent as the previous link did not work.

          PB
          		   @@attachment@@
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26753 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/28/2019
          Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring
          PeterS: "I have shown that the Cyclo-Kite does not make use of DS." 

          I will seek where your proof is; if you have proved the matter with some kind of definition of DS, then that scene would be settled up to the definition of DS you may have used.     I'll be back on question after I have found your proof and definition used in such proof.
          Best, 
             JoeF
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26754 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/28/2019
          Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
          PeterS

          The link doesn't seem to work, but you already have this patent I sent previously.

          PB
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26755 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/28/2019
          Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
          Hi Peter,

          The reason why ALT VAWT such as described doesn't work is very simple: the active lift works by downwind motion, and the downwind motion withdraws from the power. And no (downwind) motion leads to no power. So any additional power cannot be expected.
          A workable example of active lift is the kite reeling during reel-out phase, by taking account of the loss of power due to downwind motion.

          PierreB 
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26756 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/28/2019
          Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
          ...the downwind motion withdraws the power.
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26757 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/28/2019
          Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring
          The Cyclo-Kite does not make use of DS.
          VAWT do not make use of DS.
          HAWT do not make use of DS.

          These devices use wind power.
          If these devices make use of DS, one should prove it.
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26758 From: dave santos Date: 6/28/2019
          Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring
          DS is wind power from flight in wind gradients, so a turbine on a tower does not apply, but a kite does.

          If Peter's kite device does not use DS, as his special claim let him try and prove it if he insists on proof. Its enough if he just wants to predict it does not develop DS effect, while others predict it does.



           

          The Cyclo-Kite does not make use of DS.

          VAWT do not make use of DS.
          HAWT do not make use of DS.

          These devices use wind power.
          If these devices make use of DS, one should prove it.
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26759 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/28/2019
          Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring
          Pierre, mount a small HAWT on DSing RC sailplane; note the HAWT generating electricity; conclude that the HAWT thereupon makes use of DSing. The counterexample negates the universal you stated. 
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26760 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/28/2019
          Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT [1 Attachment]
          Attachments :

            Hi PierreB,

            Yes, Version 3 does away with separate generators.

            PeterS

             

            From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
            Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 2:19 PM
            To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT [1 Attachment]

             

             

            [Attachment(s) from pierre-benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy] included below]

            Hi PeterS,

            No, concerning the last patent I attach again.

            See page 6, here is a low level translation but good enough to show the two generators in their two respective axis:

             

            "This secondary axis is used to drive an electrical generator or other mechanism such as a pump.


            Similarly, the axis of rotation of the turbine allows to drive an electric generator or a mechanism other than a pump. The secondary axis, which is not confused with the axis of rotation of the turbine, recovers the lift forces while the axis of rotation of the turbine recovers the grid forces.

            These lift and weft forces are generated on the rotor wings by the hydraulic fluid.

            The tangential frame forces are in fact conventionally recovered at the axis of rotation of the turbine through the link arms while the n! ormal lift forces are recovered through the coulis--sets satellite buckets/connecting rods/pinions at the secondary axis which is not coaxial to the axis of rotation of the turbine."

             

            Perhaps V3 is a little different as the central shaft is near to the stationary wheel instead of being in it. In my opinion all the versions are likely not workable as more efficient VAWT. Each version is changed because of a theoretical problem like the downwind motion of V1 reducing the incident angle, or other. 

            I am definitely not convinced.

             

            PierreB

             

             
            Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26761 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/28/2019
            Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring
            Joe and you Dave should prove the use of DS for the Cyclo-Kite, or VAWT, or HAWT. Peter knows how his Cyclo-Kite works, not you two apparently.
            Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26762 From: dave santos Date: 6/28/2019
            Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring
            Brilliant Joe; similarly, mount a VAWT on a DS glider, et viola, DS modes for HAWTs and VAWTs.

            I admit my mistake in overlooking DS by turbine-on-a-wing cases (after Loyd)



             

            Pierre, mount a small HAWT on DSing RC sailplane; note the HAWT generating electricity; conclude that the HAWT thereupon makes use of DSing. The counterexample negates the universal you stated. 
            Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26763 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/28/2019
            Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring
            Attachments :

              JoeF,

              You want me to define how DaveS defines DS? That’s up to him to state. Then I can use his definition, if it makes sense, to show that it isn’t used by the Cyclo-Kite.

              The definition I use for a DS glider is the ordinary one: Dynamic soaring by a glider is when the glider flies back and forth between an area of higher wind speed and lower wind speed to increase its looping speed or to increase the distance it can travel.

              Please recognize that it is DaveS’ responsibility to prove his own claim. So far, it’s quite vague. He has presented no evidence whatsoever to support his claim, and he won’t even clarify his claim. So it’s not much of a claim. It’s just an unsupported opinion.

              PeterS

               

              From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 2:25 PM
              To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

               

               

              PeterS: "I have shown that the Cyclo-Kite does not make use of DS." 

               

              I will seek where your proof is; if you have proved the matter with some kind of definition of DS, then that scene would be settled up to the definition of DS you may have used.     I'll be back on question after I have found your proof and definition used in such proof.

              Best, 

                 JoeF
              Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26764 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/28/2019
              Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
              Attachments :

                Hi PierreB,

                Yes, I believe that I have it, thanks to you.

                PeterS

                 

                From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 2:25 PM
                To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

                 

                 

                PeterS

                 

                The link doesn't seem to work, but you already have this patent I sent previously.

                 

                PB
                Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26765 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/28/2019
                Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring
                A mounted HAWT on DSing RC sailplane becomes a secondary turbine, the main device being the sailplane. 
                Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26766 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/28/2019
                Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                Attachments :

                  Hi PierreB,

                  You’re argument against the ALT seems to be the same one that you have made previously, and which I responded to each time. I refer you to the animation of Version 3. Noice that the blade does NOT move downwind relative to the central axis if the VAWT. Yet, due to the gearing, the blade can force its satellite gear to rotate around the stationary gear, thereby creating torque to rotate the VAWT.

                  As far as I can tell, the blades could be replaced with rectangular blocks the did not produce a net tangential force. The VAWT would still rotate, although not rapidly. Pressure on those blocks, alone, would be able to cause rotation.

                  ----------

                  Yes, the reel-out phase is due to Active Lift. But it is a very inefficient use of Active Lift because, as I recall, the optimum power during reel-out is only 1/3 of what it could be if the kite did not move downwind with the wind.

                  Also, it seems to me that the lift that holds the kite up is Active Lift.

                  Active Lift is not something new. But the discovery is the way to create efficient Active Lift. That’s new.

                  PeterS

                   

                  From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                  Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 2:50 PM
                  To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

                   

                   

                  Hi Peter,

                   

                  The reason why ALT VAWT such as described doesn't work is very simple: the active lift works by downwind motion, and the downwind motion withdraws from the power. And no (downwind) motion leads to no power. So any additional power cannot be expected.

                  A workable example of active lift is the kite reeling during reel-out phase, by taking account of the loss of power due to downwind motion.

                   

                  PierreB 
                  Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26767 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/28/2019
                  Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring
                  Attachments :

                    Hi PierreB,

                    Exactly.

                    PeterS

                     

                    From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                    Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 3:12 PM
                    To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

                     

                     

                    The Cyclo-Kite does not make use of DS.

                    VAWT do not make use of DS.

                    HAWT do not make use of DS.



                    These devices use wind power.

                    If these devices make use of DS, one should prove it.
                    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26768 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/28/2019
                    Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring
                    Attachments :

                      Hi JoeF,

                      You are assigning two meanings to HAWT. HAWT are assumed to be stationary unless otherwise noted. A HAWT on a DS glider is usually referred to as a “ram-air turbine” (RAT), which could be any kind of wind turbine.

                      A RAT on a DS glider should work if you have some way to store the energy or somehow transmit it to the ground. But it isn’t a reasonable counter-example because the glider is the one that is DSing and the RAT is just along for the ride. For example, a HAWT can fly to the moon – if carried by a rocket ship.

                      PeterS

                       

                      From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                      Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 3:22 PM
                      To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

                       

                       

                      Pierre, mount a small HAWT on DSing RC sailplane; note the HAWT generating electricity; conclude that the HAWT thereupon makes use of DSing. The counterexample negates the universal you stated. 
                      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26769 From: dave santos Date: 6/28/2019
                      Subject: Cheaper Better Power Kites- the party never ends
                      Quality 13.5m2 Racing Kite for 339USD; about 34cents a Watt of raw power from moderate wind-
                      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26770 From: dave santos Date: 6/28/2019
                      Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring
                      Peter, Just accept Wikipedia as the third party DS definition I stand on. Add DS modes to the list if you understand the WP article, "different flight patterns can be employed in dynamic soaring". Point out the WP mistakes you mentioned. You don't have to prove anything. Fermat's Last Theorem to 358yrs to prove.

                      Pierre is correct, by adding a VAWT or HAWT on a DS wing these are secondary turbines, a method of harvesting some of the total DS power by the primary turbine. This is Loyd's turbine-on-a-wing AWE in DS mode.

                      Similarly, the Earth floats along in its wind field, and subject to DS forces by the gradients. How is the Earth a wing? its a spinning ball developing a Magnus Effect distribution. We see all the topological markers, like lift, inertial mass, gradients, and so on.

                      We are getting really good at this.



                       

                      A mounted HAWT on DSing RC sailplane becomes a secondary turbine, the main device being the sailplane. 
                      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26771 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/28/2019
                      Subject: Crater flying for SDCA?

                      Assuming adequate ambient wind:


                      SDCA: Single-straight-bladed Darrieus VAWT set with rotating axis horizontal and traverse to the ambient wind held in rotation by flexible tethers is a kite system of interest.


                      Such type of giromill or cyclo-turbine may be tethered in various formats: wide-based arch line tethering, wing-span-spread two tethers, single-line tether to mid-span, single-line tether to V-bridle, two-line tethering with anchor spread moderated between wide and narrow; also three- or four-line tethering schemes may be employed for control purposes. This does not exhaust tethering options. 


                      Let SDCA be used to indicate this type of wind turbine. PTO may occur by various means, flygen or groundgen or a mix of the two positions. 


                      Good works by a SDCA may extend beyond electricity generation. SDCAs may use rigid towers or kite-system lifted anchor points for the SDCA tether set. Peter A. Sharp seems to have explored in depth some of the SDCA and SDVA* realm. 


                      [ ] Can a SDCA function when set in a crater in the midst of flatland if the SDCA wing is manually started in rotation? Will autorotation be maintained for the SDCA wing so situated in a crater such that the rotation axis is a taut cable set from one side of the crater to the other side (ends of a diameter of a circular crater)?  If read correctly, I'd say PeterS would not see autorotation maintained by any SDCA so set in a crater; I come to such note as he noted that blocking the ambient wind from the Sharp Cyclo-Kite would end up having the Cyclo-Kite stop flying.  The crater scenario herein constructed is intended to mimic the scene where the ambient wind does not face the lower half of the orbit of the SDCA set in crater as described. 


                      The answer could arrive from achieving autorotation actually. Not achieving autorotation in limited experiments would not prove that it cannot be done. 


                      [ ] Does DS (dynamic soaring) play a role in autorotation of SDCA or SDVA?


                      * "SDVA" may be reserved for vertical axis traverse to ambient wind.
                      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26772 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/28/2019
                      Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring
                      PeterS, 
                             I do not urge you to define how DaveS defines DS. No need for that; he may define DS for offer. 

                      Your just stated definition for DS in your words had me wince at "increase" whereas I've been accustomed to a milder neutral or better maintenance or even slowing loss. While dynamically soaring, I'd feel blessed not to sink as fast as I would had I not a shear to work. I'd not require loop speed to increase; increase might hide some benefit of the dynamics involved.
                       
                      Three instances, perhaps: 
                      Cyclo-kite facing non-gradient true wind with average projected velocity of Va.
                      Cyclo-kite facing true wind that has vertical positive-velocity gradient with same Va.
                      Cyclo-kite facing true wind that has vertically negative-velocity gradient with same Va.
                      Let Va be assumed to be from linear inputs from Vt and Vb.  t: top.  b: bottom. Hence Va would be effective ambient velocity of wind at junction of Quadrant 1 and Q2, the most windward point of the orbit. 
                      Will DS play in any of the three instances or cases described? You have been claiming that DS will not play in any of the cases; if your definition of DS requires "increase of looping speed" then such threshold might knock out a DS definition that did not require "increase of looping speed."  I am assuming by "looping speed" that you grasp the full orbit's loop for a speed, not instantaneous phase pointwise derivative.
                         I am still reviewing to find your proof that DS plays no role in any of the three cases; I'll be back when I think I have found your proof and its DS definition. 

                      Similarly, I am exploring DaveS' argument for DS involvement in Cyclo-kiting when non-zero wind gradient is faced. And his assumptive DS meaning.

                      ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <sharpencil@sbcglobal.net filtered #ygrps-yiv-1964515963ygrps-yiv-838453917 {font-family:Wingdings;panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1964515963 filtered #ygrps-yiv-1964515963ygrps-yiv-838453917 {font-family:"Cambria Math";panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} #ygrps-yiv-1964515963 filtered #ygrps-yiv-1964515963ygrps-yiv-838453917 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} #ygrps-yiv-1964515963 filtered #ygrps-yiv-1964515963ygrps-yiv-838453917 {font-family:Consolas;panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;} #ygrps-yiv-1964515963 filtered #ygrps-yiv-1964515963ygrps-yiv-838453917 {font-family:Verdana;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} #ygrps-yiv-1964515963 #ygrps-yiv-1964515963ygrps-yiv-838453917 #ygrps-yiv-1964515963ygrps-yiv-838453917 p.ygrps-yiv-1964515963ygrps-yiv-838453917MsoNormal, #ygrps-yiv-1964515963 #ygrps-yiv-1964515963ygrps-yiv-838453917 li.ygrps-yiv-1964515963ygrps-yiv-838453917MsoNormal, #ygrps-yiv-1964515963 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                      JoeF,

                      You want me to define how DaveS defines DS? That’s up to him to state. Then I can use his definition, if it makes sense, to show that it isn’t used by the Cyclo-Kite.

                      The definition I use for a DS glider is the ordinary one: Dynamic soaring by a glider is when the glider flies back and forth between an area of higher wind speed and lower wind speed to increase its looping speed or to increase the distance it can travel.

                      Please recognize that it is DaveS’ responsibility to prove his own claim. So far, it’s quite vague. He has presented no evidence whatsoever to support his claim, and he won’t even clarify his claim. So it’s not much of a claim. It’s just an unsupported opinion.

                      PeterS

                       

                      From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                      Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 2:25 PM
                      To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

                       

                       

                      PeterS: "I have shown that the Cyclo-Kite does not make use of DS." 

                       

                      I will seek where your proof is; if you have proved the matter with some kind of definition of DS, then that scene would be settled up to the definition of DS you may have used.     I'll be back on question after I have found your proof and definition used in such proof.

                      Best, 

                         JoeF
                      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26773 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/28/2019
                      Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring
                      Earth surface is moving. Wind has air molecules are moving. It is the relative or apparent wind that is used to have a HAWT function as a HAWT. The generated electricity does not have on it any imprint about whether the HAWT was on terra firm or deck of a moving water ship.  Define anchoring as needed. We have discussed HAWTs onboard FFAWE as RATs. The HAWT "stationary" is an Earth RAT. 
                      PierreB's flygen has a HAWT onboard for his AWES; his RAT is stationary relative his kited-wing framework. RATs may be dedicated to making noise without further storage of energies: musical kites. 
                          The RAT on a DSing sailplane is depending on DSing for providing the apparent wind useful for the RAT.  
                      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26774 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/28/2019
                      Subject: Re: Crater flying for SDCA?
                      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26775 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/28/2019
                      Subject: Re: Crater flying for SDCA?
                      Partial preparatory study: 

                      Aerodynamic models for Darrieus-type straight-bladed vertical axis wind turbines
                       Mazharul Islam, David S.-K. Ting, Amir Fartaj 
                      Department of Mechanical, Automotive and Materials Engineering, University of Windsor, Windsor, Ont., Canada N9B 3P4 
                      Received 20 October 2006; accepted 31 October 2006
                      Non-pay copy is available someplace on Internet.
                      ======================================
                      Did not mention single straight blade Darrieus ...
                      Gipe presenting ....
                      ========================================

                      _____________________________________
                      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26776 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/28/2019
                      Subject: Re: Crater flying for SDCA?
                      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26777 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/28/2019
                      Subject: Re: Crater flying for SDCA?
                      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26778 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/29/2019
                      Subject: Re: Crater flying for SDCA?
                      Joe, thanks for these interesting links.
                      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26779 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/29/2019
                      Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                      Hi Peter (your message 26766),

                      You wrote: "... the blade does NOT move downwind relative to the central axis if the VAWT.  " 

                      I would complete: but the blade moves downwind relative to the secondary axis yy' settled windward. We discussed it several times, and you provided me a usefull explain before by mentioning the tail vane. 
                      So on the same line we have the tail vane settled downwind, then the central shaft on the axis xx' leading to the generator that uses tangential force from the blade, then upwind the secondary shaft on the axis yy' leading to the generator that uses (via the sattelite gear) active lift from the blade. Both axis are within the stationary wheel.

                      You wrote: "...due to the gearing, the blade can force its satellite gear to rotate around the stationary gear, thereby creating torque to rotate the VAWT."
                      I think you mean the active lift is converted in additional torque via the sattelite gear. Because the main torque goes towards the central shaft (like Darrieus VAWT makes) via the arm located under the central shaft.

                      To resume in the last patent configuration the active lift of the blade goes to the secondary shaft yy' via the sattelite gear, while the tangential force from the same blade goes to the central shaft xx' via the arm located under the central shaft.

                      My idea is that will work still worse, as the two axis yy' and xx' are within the same stationary wheel, as the two forces come from the same blade (and also how is it sure that yy' takes lift and xx' takes tangential force?). Resulting the downwind motion in regard to yy' by the active force will likely slow down the rotation that is normally assured by the tangential force like Darrieus VAWT does.
                      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26780 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/29/2019
                      Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                      Hi Peter,
                      Perhaps the last part of my previous message can be corrected if the shaft in the axis xx' is not in contact with the stationary wheel 3 during the rotation, even though they rotate with the same average angular speed and the same direction. Indeed some jolts from the active lift use via the satellite gear 4 could prevent rotation if xx' shaft is integral with the stationary wheel. 
                      In all ways there would likely be a conflict of forces, not an addition of forces.
                      Moreover the patent mentions the forces are induced by the hydraulic fluid: this part is not described. As there are two axis for two generators, there should be also two hydraulic installations: this is a lacking point.
                      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26781 From: dougselsam Date: 6/29/2019
                      Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring
                      I was just watching a hang gliding video from the UK where the guy used the term "dynamic lift" for ridge lift (gliding in an updraft).
                      So there's one more use of a related term, but in my opinion, while words are useful to categorize what we experience, I think the more important thing is to understand what is going on, rather than fidgeting over exactly what to call it.


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                      JoeF,

                      You want me to define how DaveS defines DS? That’s up to him to state. Then I can use his definition, if it makes sense, to show that it isn’t used by the Cyclo-Kite.

                      The definition I use for a DS glider is the ordinary one: Dynamic soaring by a glider is when the glider flies back and forth between an area of higher wind speed and lower wind speed to increase its looping speed or to increase the distance it can travel.

                      Please recognize that it is DaveS’ responsibility to prove his own claim. So far, it’s quite vague. He has presented no evidence whatsoever to support his claim, and he won’t even clarify his claim. So it’s not much of a claim. It’s just an unsupported opinion.

                      PeterS

                       

                      From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                      Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 2:25 PM
                      To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

                       

                       

                      PeterS: "I have shown that the Cyclo-Kite does not make use of DS." 

                       

                      I will seek where your proof is; if you have proved the matter with some kind of definition of DS, then that scene would be settled up to the definition of DS you may have used.     I'll be back on question after I have found your proof and definition used in such proof.

                      Best, 

                         JoeF
                      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26782 From: dougselsam Date: 6/29/2019
                      Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring
                      daveS said: "How is the Earth a wing? its a spinning ball developing a Magnus Effect distribution.  We are getting really good at this."

                      ***DougS replies:  I think you are getting really LOST.  The Earth is not spinning in some ambient, ore-existing, largely stationary atmosphere.  That sounds like something somebody would have believed thousands of years ago.  Besides tidal and friction effects that could slightly change the spin over millions of years, the earth is not influenced in its flight (orbit) by travel or spin "through" its own atmosphere, any more than you can fly by pulling up on your own shoelaces.  The atmosphere largely spins WITH the Earth, and is indeed PART OF the Earth, rather than the Earth plowing through some mythical, independent, outside, stationary atmosphere.  WTF are U smoking?  I guess we're always in first grade here...  No this has got to be the special class.  (Now be gentle with the kids here, you KNOW they "arem't well"...)  And no the Earth is not "a wing", but people saying concrete blocks buried underground are wings might just be "wing-nuts".


                      ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

                      A mounted HAWT on DSing RC sailplane becomes a secondary turbine, the main device being the sailplane. 
                      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26783 From: dave santos Date: 6/29/2019
                      Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring
                      The Earth is spinning in a dynamic wind field; therefore its a DL/DS factor. Pure Static Lift is of course an idealization. In the real world, flight is always a mix of static and dynamic lift, including ridge lift.

                      These sorts of musings are for those who best  appreciate them, and especially those who can both think outside-the-box and do the most audacious real flying.





                       

                      daveS said: "How is the Earth a wing? its a spinning ball developing a Magnus Effect distribution.  We are getting really good at this."

                      ***DougS replies:  I think you are getting really LOST.  The Earth is not spinning in some ambient, ore-existing, largely stationary atmosphere.  That sounds like something somebody would have believed thousands of years ago.  Besides tidal and friction effects that could slightly change the spin over millions of years, the earth is not influenced in its flight (orbit) by travel or spin "through" its own atmosphere, any more than you can fly by pulling up on your own shoelaces.  The atmosphere largely spins WITH the Earth, and is indeed PART OF the Earth, rather than the Earth plowing through some mythical, independent, outside, stationary atmosphere.  WTF are U smoking?  I guess we're always in first grade here...  No this has got to be the special class.  (Now be gentle with the kids here, you KNOW they "arem't well"...)  And no the Earth is not "a wing", but people saying concrete blocks buried underground are wings might just be "wing-nuts".


                      ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

                      A mounted HAWT on DSing RC sailplane becomes a secondary turbine, the main device being the sailplane. 
                      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26784 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/29/2019
                      Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring
                      Sure Dave, thanks to DS factor the Earth stays longer in the air.
                      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26785 From: dave santos Date: 6/29/2019
                      Subject: Giant Edo Kite in stable sustained flight
                      Due to scaling laws, giant kites are both more massive by unit-area and encounter wind as dynamically slower under non-dimensional velocity. High wind is riskier as well, given the "weak giant" scaling effect.

                      Here's a giant Edo flight where everything works just right. At 800kg, its not the largest of its kind, but quite impressive as traditional folk aviation.
                      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26786 From: dave santos Date: 6/29/2019
                      Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring
                      Simplistic Philistine cynicism misses the scientific wonder of this sort of prediction. This is more like how moon tides were first conjectured to occur in a tea-cup. Similarly, Earth's DL-DS forces are invisible to ordinary observation and imagination, but they are there.

                      Is there a tide in a teacup





                       

                      Sure Dave, thanks to DS factor the Earth stays longer in the air.
                      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26787 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/29/2019
                      Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring
                      I’m reassured now. Dave will find a way to stop the Earth from falling through the judicious implementation of DS. It reminds me "Les Shadoks" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Shadoks.
                      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26788 From: dave santos Date: 6/29/2019
                      Subject: Canary Islands entering AWE R&D
                      This item from KGM1 Project (Marco Ghivarello), that the Technological Institute of the Canary Islands (ITC) is developing an R&D partnership. No details yet, but we cover KGM1 progress, and the Tenerife Kitesurfing scene, as the starting background for what can happen. The Canaries may soon become a major AWES tech incubator-
                      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26789 From: dougselsam Date: 6/29/2019
                      Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring
                      Don't you see that all these discussions are about nothing?
                      2-D Symbols representing sounds we make with our mouths.
                      Sounds making up words.
                      Words, consisting of sounds .
                      Sounds standing for things, processes, relationships.
                      Then you have people who want to keep changing what sounds stand for
                      which things, processes, relationships, trying to win "arguments" over the sounds, but not about the actual things..

                      What matters is if you can come up with something that works, NOT whether you can "say" an "H-A" turbine "makes use of" "dynamic soaring".
                      I'm perplexed that people are so lost in "words" and "definitions" that they can't see that they are spending all day arguing about which symbols stand for what.  It's meaningless.  It's just a choice of which sounds to use to represent which things, not a discussion of the things themselves.

                      You guys are like a crew who has decided to dig a hole.  The goal is to replace those stupid backhoes everyone else uses.
                      But, rather than dig the hole, the crew stands around all day, arguing over the definitions of various types of shovels, a trowel, a spade, and definitions of various strokes that could be taken with various shovels.  They argue over words like "digging", shoveling" "excavating"...  There is no limit to how long they go on arguing.  Everyone in the crew imagines themself as "the boss", and they like to talk about the timeline of the digging of the hole, but no matter how many years go on, none of the crew picks up a shovel and uses it to dig the hole. 

                      They talk about it a lot.  One of the guys who started getting people interested in the hole-digging finally decides that just holding a shovel over the ground "provides shade" which makes "a darker area" that he then defines as "a hole", and the whole thing is solved.  No need to use a shovel to dig a hole, just hold it out, it has a shadow, so the crew goes on patting themselves on the back for some time. 

                      Today, one guy (daveS) even said "We're getting really good at this".  Yes getting really good at standing around NOT digging a hole, pretending you are, for 12 years.  In 12 years of talk, none of these guys has put a shovel to the dirt. Instead they argue about what to call various types of shovels.  One guy starts insisting that the dirt itself "really is" a shovel.  None of them can actually imagine THEM digging the hole.  That's a job for someone else. These guys are too smart.  No, these are the guys "in charge of" hole-digging in general.  They are going to figure out HOW to dig the hole, well, maybe someday, but for now they are (after 12 years) "starting" with what words to call the shovels!  Which turns out to be the only thing they are capable of discussing.  Never taking a single shovelful of dirt out of the ground, yet they go on pretending. 

                      Recently it had been suggested that a tape measure or yardstick be used to ascertain who was really doing how much digging.  After 12 years, with the ground surface still unbroken, the one who, years ago, had announced an "in-hole concert" that never happened, due to no hole being dug, who was "allergic to measurements" stated he believed the hole-digging effort was suffering from "an over-reliance on" such measuring devices.  Absolutely absurd.
                      You kids are so lost, you don't even KNOW you're lost.
                      Lost in La-la-land.

                      ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <joefaust333@...