Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                          AWES 26640 to 26689 Page 424 of 440.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26640 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/27/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26641 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/27/2019
Subject: Re: DS Aeronautics Updated

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26642 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/27/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26643 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/27/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26644 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/27/2019
Subject: Re: DS Aeronautics Updated

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26645 From: dave santos Date: 6/27/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26646 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/27/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26647 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/27/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26648 From: dave santos Date: 6/27/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26649 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/27/2019
Subject: Re: DS Aeronautics Updated

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26650 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/27/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26651 From: dave santos Date: 6/27/2019
Subject: Re: DS Aeronautics Updated

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26652 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/27/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26653 From: dave santos Date: 6/27/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26654 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/27/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26655 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/27/2019
Subject: If not, then not

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26656 From: dave santos Date: 6/27/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26657 From: dave santos Date: 6/27/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26658 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/27/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26659 From: dave santos Date: 6/27/2019
Subject: New Small AWES COTS Power Component Options- "Portable Power Station

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26660 From: dave santos Date: 6/27/2019
Subject: Dynamic Lift as Dynamic Soaring Superset

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26661 From: dave santos Date: 6/27/2019
Subject: Re: DS Aeronautics Updated

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26662 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: DS Aeronautics Updated

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26663 From: dougselsam Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: If not, then not

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26664 From: dougselsam Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Power Kite as AWE's One Basic Breakthrough

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26665 From: dougselsam Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: One kilogram AWES and the good effected?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26666 From: Joe Faust Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: One kilogram AWES and the good effected?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26667 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Power Kite as AWE's One Basic Breakthrough

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26668 From: dave santos Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: If not, then not

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26669 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26670 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26671 From: dougselsam Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Power Kite as AWE's One Basic Breakthrough

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26672 From: dave santos Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26673 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26674 From: dougselsam Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: If not, then not

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26675 From: dave santos Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26676 From: dave santos Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Power Kite as AWE's One Basic Breakthrough

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26677 From: dave santos Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: If not, then not

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26678 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26679 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: DS Aeronautics Updated

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26680 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26681 From: dave santos Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: DS Aeronautics Updated

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26682 From: dave santos Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26683 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Dynamic Lift as Dynamic Soaring Superset

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26684 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: DS Aeronautics Updated

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26685 From: dougselsam Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: If not, then not

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26686 From: dave santos Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Dynamic Lift as Dynamic Soaring Superset

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26687 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26688 From: dougselsam Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: Dynamic Lift as Dynamic Soaring Superset

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26689 From: dave santos Date: 6/28/2019
Subject: Re: DS Aeronautics Updated



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26640 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/27/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
Hi Peter,
In my message on https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AirborneWindEnergy/conversations/messages/26580 I quote what you wrote: "That power is in addition to the normal power of the VAWT." , indicating that I am not sure of it, giving some examples. In other previous messages I mentioned also the problem to add tangential force on xx', then the active lift force on yy'.

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26641 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/27/2019
Subject: Re: DS Aeronautics Updated
Attachments :

    Dave, I have already explained the answer to your question many times in my comments on this subject. But since you asked, I will repeat so as to try to answer.

    Place a Cyclo-Kite in close to the same orbit as for a DS glider using a large hill or ridge in front of its orbit. Use tall towers to support the Cyclo-Kite. The DS glider will work normally. The Cyclo-Kite will probably stop altogether (unless the wind speed is very high and the orbit diameter is relatively small). That is because the Cyclo-Kite generates most of its power during quadrants 4 and 1, whereas the DS glider generates almost all of its power during quadrants 2 and 3.

    They do not function on the same principle. A Cyclo-Kite cannot be described as using DS to produce power.

    For the Cyclo-Kite, when the blade is in quadrants 2 and 3, the radius to the blade is considerably reduced, and it spends less time in those quadrants. The elastic cords have considerably contracted. Quadrant 4 is where it produces the most power and where is spends more time, and with a larger radius, than in the other quadrants. It stores the most energy in quadrant 4 by greatly elongating the elastic cords.

    PeterS

     

    From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
    Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2019 3:18 PM
    To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: Re: [AWES] DS Aeronautics Updated

     

     

    Peter, you don't explain how the same dynamic motion in normal gradient that the Wikipedia DS animation shows, as a boost, somehow has the opposite effect on your cyclokite. What's the key difference? That's the missing explanation.

     

    On ‎Thursday‎, ‎June‎ ‎27‎, ‎2019‎ ‎05‎:‎13‎:‎02‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26642 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/27/2019
    Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
    Attachments :

      No, Dave, you are wrong again. I asked you for evidence that the ST or a Archimedes screw could exceed the Betz limit, as you claimed. You were unable to provide any evidence whatsoever. You think that it is easy to exceed the Betz limit, but that is because you don’t understand the Betz limit.

      No, Dave, you are wrong again. No one has ever proposed using an ALT as a AWE. You have been corrected many times on that point and you ignore all attempts. It is the principle of Acdtive Lift that might be adapted to other WECS, including power kites, not the VAWT which is designed to be a VAWT, not a power kite.

      PeterS

       

      From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2019 3:27 PM
      To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

       

       

      And this ALT paper quote-

       

      "It has been theoretically demonstrated that active lift turbine is delivering a power coefficient greater than defined by Betz "

       

      But this is not the quibble, we well know Betz's disc is a flawed model for deep-section turbines.

       

      The question is whether the ALT is a true "breaktrough" as PeterS thinks.

       

      Its not an AWES WECS break-through, unless proven in flight.

       

      On ‎Thursday‎, ‎June‎ ‎27‎, ‎2019‎ ‎05‎:‎16‎:‎49‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26643 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/27/2019
      Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
      Attachments :

        No, Dave, you are wrong again. The math for the ALT is not intended to include flying the VAWT as a power kite, so they have no reason to address the power to weight ratio. You are once again confusing the principle of the device with the device itself.

        No, Dave, you are wrong again. The ALT design is intended to maximize the Cp. Doug’s design is not intended to maximize the Cp. In fact, he is willing to sacrifice some of the Cp in order to increase the RPM so as to reduce the size and cost of the generator and lower the overall weight at the top of the tower. His design is a substitute for using a step-up transmission.

        PeterS

         

        From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2019 3:44 PM
        To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

         

         

        Where we know ALT's math to be inadequate is that it neglects highest power-to-weight for flight. They were not even thinking about flight, just adding mass and complexity in the already relatively heavy and complex VAWT WECS class.

         

        We give Doug high credit for introducing here the wisdom in basic HAWT design that any fussing with proven design for a small improvement generally does not pay as well as just adding a few inches to the rotor diameter. Now see the same principle in VAWTs; a bit bigger standard model at equivalent cost should match or beat the ALT.

         

        On ‎Thursday‎, ‎June‎ ‎27‎, ‎2019‎ ‎05‎:‎31‎:‎07‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26644 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/27/2019
        Subject: Re: DS Aeronautics Updated
        Attachments :

          Hi JoeF,

          If you start with the ambient wind (no wind gradient) at the speed near the ground, and then add a positive wind gradient, you will increase the average speed of the wind and the power of the Cyclo-Kite. But that in no way indicates that the Cyclo-Kite functions like a DS glider.

          PeterS

           

          From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
          Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2019 3:53 PM
          To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [AWES] DS Aeronautics Updated

           

           

          Typo: 

          FORMER:

          What may be advantageous is that the gradient increases from ground up.  Think of the low velocity as "ambient" for system, and then a new "ambient" is gifted the system higher up; and more gift to the system higher up yet for the windward quadrants 1 and 2. 

           

          CORRECTION to:  

          What may be advantageous is that the gradient increases from ground up.  Think of the low velocity as "ambient" for system, and then a new "ambient" is gifted the system higher up; and more gift to the system higher up yet for the windward quadrant 2 and downwind quadrant 3.  

           

          ================Note: Q2 is not a "windward" quadrant per acceptance of Peter's nomenclature for quadrants. 

           

          Reader, thanks for the energy to handle the correction; I'll reciprocate if ever any Reader steps through a correction process. Best to you and yours!

          We have no way to edit something already posted beyond deletion and reposting, or this method of announcing a correction. 

          =========================================

          =============! ============================

           

          Further, Peter,

                     Invitation: negative DS for inverted wind gradient for the Cyclo-kite; and positive DS for the wind gradient experienced in the video at the beach.

           

           
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26645 From: dave santos Date: 6/27/2019
          Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring
          Wikipedia is only cited to define DS as normally understood, with the animation showing what I think is dynamic similarity to you CycloKite. No one claims this proves or disproves your claim of no DS.

          Let future scholars settle who was right here. Sorry you don't see the same dynamic similarity I see.



           

          No, Dave. Wrong again. The definition in Wikipedia of DS does not reveal how the Cyclo-Kite employs DS.

          You are claiming a connection without showing one. You are just trying to bluff you way out.

          PeterS

           

          From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
          Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2019 2:56 PM
          To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

           

           

          You are right Peter. I defer to Wikipedia to define DS for me in a way that does match your definition.

           

          On ‎Thursday‎, ‎June‎ ‎27‎, ‎2019‎ ‎04‎:‎43‎:‎00‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26646 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/27/2019
          Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

          Thanks, Peter, I see what I was doing: haste over "ALT original team's literature" meant in my subconscious a synergy of notes and thrust in http://www.energiesdelamer.eu/publications/72-r-d/5137-un-projet-de-turbine-a-portance-active   where the author brought in piezo note while aiming to discuss what the ALT team was doing.     
               I add relative to your exploratory note to me a note of mine now::   The to do to get more power from blade pressure otherwise "wasted" to, say, heat, will still have some energy conversion to heat: what was and from the new mechanisms added.       And I suspect that the piezoelectric materials straining and resulting in electricity will need to unstrain in cycles; such cycling might reduce the blade effectiveness as to aerodynamics; there might be some "robbing Peter to pay Paul" going on in the scenario; get some new source of torque while losing a former source of torque. 
          ---------
            

          By using for example piezoelectric materials, it would be possible to recover energy from these constraints. However, the price of these materials and their integration generate excessive overhead compared to the energy gain recovered by this technology. At present, this technology is therefore not suitable in the field of wind energy.

           

          12 03 019 EDM P. Lecanu

          Albert Betz did not take into account the possibility of recovering additional energy from potential energy.

           

          A pre-publication was then proposed on the theme "Theoretical calculation of the power of wind turbine or tidal turbine" (1). This article demonstrates that the Betz power coefficient is not the limit value as is commonly accepted and widely disseminated in the articles for decades.







          ===================================================================================
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          Hi JoeF,

          I don’t see anything in that article about pizo cells. Please quote what you wish to refer to.

          PeterS

           

          From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
          Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2019 3:16 PM
          To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

           

           

           "seems to be a thrust in the ALT original team's literature that edges to beat Betz by pizo and AL. "

           

          My double check at your urge, Peter: 

          https://hal.inria.fr/hal-01300531v2/document "A simplified theory is proposed to extend the Betz limit of the yield on vertical axis wind turbine."
          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26647 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/27/2019
          Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
          Attachments :

            Hi PierreB,

            Sorry, but I still can’t figure out what it is you are intending to say. Do you want more examples of Active Lift? I’ve give some. I can give them again.

            PeterS

             

            From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
            Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2019 4:39 PM
            To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

             

             

            Hi Peter,

            In my message on https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AirborneWindEnergy/conversations/messages/26580 I quote what you wrote: "That power is in addition to the normal power of the VAWT." , indicating that I am not sure of it, giving some examples. In other previous messages I mentioned also the problem to add tangential force on xx', then the active lift force on yy'.



            PierreB
            Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26648 From: dave santos Date: 6/27/2019
            Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
            We agree on this PeterS- "the ALT is not intended to include flying the VAWT as a power kite, so they have no reason to address the power to weight ratio". When we address power-to-weight, its no breakthrough. The power kite wins.

            A bigger VAWT with the same mass as an ALT can have greater Cp is my prediction. Let the future judge.

            We agree that you don't see DS in the CycloKite in your beach wind. Let the future judge.

            Lets hope someone tries the ALT to test the claims in favor and against, on a pole and airborne.


             

            No, Dave, you are wrong again. The math for the ALT is not intended to include flying the VAWT as a power kite, so they have no reason to address the power to weight ratio. You are once again confusing the principle of the device with the device itself.

            No, Dave, you are wrong again. The ALT design is intended to maximize the Cp. Doug’s design is not intended to maximize the Cp. In fact, he is willing to sacrifice some of the Cp in order to increase the RPM so as to reduce the size and cost of the generator and lower the overall weight at the top of the tower. His design is a substitute for using a step-up transmission.

            PeterS

             

            From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
            Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2019 3:44 PM
            To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

             

             

            Where we know ALT's math to be inadequate is that it neglects highest power-to-weight for flight. They were not even thinking about flight, just adding mass and complexity in the already relatively heavy and complex VAWT WECS class.

             

            We give Doug high credit for introducing here the wisdom in basic HAWT design that any fussing with proven design for a small improvement generally does not pay as well as just adding a few inches to the rotor diameter. Now see the same principle in VAWTs; a bit bigger standard model at equivalent cost should match or beat the ALT.

             

            On ‎Thursday‎, ‎June‎ ‎27‎, ‎2019‎ ‎05‎:‎31‎:‎07‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

            Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26649 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/27/2019
            Subject: Re: DS Aeronautics Updated
            Have we a power curve for Cyclo-KIte per angle position in some wind? Sorry, I am still a bit dizzy circling with the blade at the beach.  Do we have measured power for making a power curve for an actual Cyclo-Kite instance?   My gut, no proof, is that some statements have been made where power ticks occur and that there may be some typos or something that may not match up.    I have not measured an instance of Cyclo-kite for data to make a curve for presentation.  If someone has raw primary power data at angles of complete orbit (blade to windward at bottom of orbit; origin at bottom just before windward), then we may graph the data and use such for discussion beyond typos or misstatements.
            =======================================
            Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26650 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/27/2019
            Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring
            Attachments :

              No, Dave, your reference to the WP definition of DS does not address in any way your claim that the Cyclo-Kite employs the DS principle. If you are now claiming that the WP anaimation is not relevant to your claim, then you should not have presented it as evidence.

              No, Dave, you are wrong again: I do see the dynamic similarity that you see, and it is one that is irrelevant. That is what you do not see. Just because they both fly loops doesn’t mean they are based on the same principle. You are over-emphasizing one similarity while ignoring all of the dis-similarities. That is you habit. I’ve seen you do it hundreds of times.

              When you abandon the argument by saying, “Let future scholars settle who was right here,” that is an intellectual bluff. It is avoiding responsibility for your erroneous claim.

              PeterS

               

              From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2019 5:15 PM
              To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

               

               

              Wikipedia is only cited to define DS as normally understood, with the animation showing what I think is dynamic similarity to you CycloKite. No one claims this proves or disproves your claim of no DS.

               

              Let future scholars settle who was right here. Sorry you don't see the same dynamic similarity I see.

               

              On ‎Thursday‎, ‎June‎ ‎27‎, ‎2019‎ ‎06‎:‎23‎:‎11‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

              Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26651 From: dave santos Date: 6/27/2019
              Subject: Re: DS Aeronautics Updated
              Let ALT claims about Betz stand as written. Let PeterS judge them a "metaphor", not a "literal" claim as he thinks was somehow wrongly implied.

              Let Pierre think a glider or kite does not sweep across the sky much like a rotor blade, and that PeterS is correct about DS and his cyclokite.

              I am happy with our range of beliefs. Whoever is right or wrong does not have to be agreed here. All our positions stand as written.



               

              Hi JoeF,

              If you start with the ambient wind (no wind gradient) at the speed near the ground, and then add a positive wind gradient, you will increase the average speed of the wind and the power of the Cyclo-Kite. But that in no way indicates that the Cyclo-Kite functions like a DS glider.

              PeterS

               

              From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2019 3:53 PM
              To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [AWES] DS Aeronautics Updated

               

               

              Typo: 

              FORMER:

              What may be advantageous is that the gradient increases from ground up.  Think of the low velocity as "ambient" for system, and then a new "ambient" is gifted the system higher up; and more gift to the system higher up yet for the windward quadrants 1 and 2. 

               

              CORRECTION to:  

              What may be advantageous is that the gradient increases from ground up.  Think of the low velocity as "ambient" for system, and then a new "ambient" is gifted the system higher up; and more gift to the system higher up yet for the windward quadrant 2 and downwind quadrant 3.  

               

              ================Note: Q2 is not a "windward" quadrant per acceptance of Peter's nomenclature for quadrants. 

               

              Reader, thanks for the energy to handle the correction; I'll reciprocate if ever any Reader steps through a correction process. Best to you and yours!

              We have no way to edit something already posted beyond deletion and reposting, or this method of announcing a correction. 

              =========================================

              =============! ============================

               

              Further, Peter,

                         Invitation: negative DS for inverted wind gradient for the Cyclo-kite; and positive DS for the wind gradient experienced in the video at the beach.

               

               
              Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26652 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/27/2019
              Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
              Attachments :

                Hi JoeF,

                Thanks for the correction.

                There is no robbing Peter to pay Paul going on. The energy from Active Lift is separate from, and in addition to, the normal energy conversion of a fixed-blade VAWT.

                No one is recommending that pizo cells should be used for Active Lift because they are so inefficient.

                PeterS

                 

                From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2019 5:18 PM
                To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

                 

                 

                 

                Thanks, Peter, I see what I was doing: haste over "ALT original team's literature" meant in my subconscious a synergy of notes and thrust in http://www.energiesdelamer.eu/publications/72-r-d/5137-un-projet-de-turbine-a-portance-active   where the author brought in piezo note while aiming to discuss what the ALT team was doing.     

                     I add relative to your exploratory note to me a note of mine now::   The to do to get more power from blade pressure otherwise "wasted" to, say, heat, will still have some energy conversion to heat: what was and from the new mechanisms added.       And I suspect that the piezoelectric materials straining and resulting in electricity will need to unstrain in cycles; such cycling might reduce the blade effectiveness as to aerodynamics; there might be some "robbing Peter to pay Paul" going on in the scenario; get some new source of torque while losing a former source of torque. 

                ---------

                  

                By using for example piezoelectric materials, it would be possible to recover energy from these constraints. However, the price of these materials and their integration generate excessive overhead compared to the energy gain recovered by this technology. At present, this technology is therefore not suitable in the field of wind energy.

                 

                Image removed by sender. 12 03 019 EDM P. Lecanu

                Albert Betz did not take into account the possibility of recovering additional energy from potential energy.

                 

                A pre-publication was then proposed on the theme "Theoretical calculation of the power of wind turbine or tidal turbine" (1). This article demonstrates that the Betz power coefficient is not the limit value as is commonly accepted and widely disseminated in the articles for decades.

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                ===================================================================================
                ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <sharpencil@sbcglobal.net

                Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26653 From: dave santos Date: 6/27/2019
                Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                I am saying the ALT does not compare well by power-to-weight with standard power kites, based on known parameters of rigid structure, scaling, and so on.

                Lack of examples of active lift in flight for AWE is the problem in an AWES context. Any examples in that regard are wanted.



                 

                Hi PierreB,

                Sorry, but I still can’t figure out what it is you are intending to say. Do you want more examples of Active Lift? I’ve give some. I can give them again.

                PeterS

                 

                From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2019 4:39 PM
                To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

                 

                 

                Hi Peter,

                In my message on https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AirborneWindEnergy/conversations/messages/26580 I quote what you wrote: "That power is in addition to the normal power of the VAWT." , indicating that I am not sure of it, giving some examples. In other previous messages I mentioned also the problem to add tangential force on xx', then the active lift force on yy'.



                PierreB
                Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26654 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/27/2019
                Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                Attachments :

                  Dave, it is inappropriate to try to compare a power kite to an ALT VAWT. Nobody has the data to make the comparison. The bottom line is the lifetime cost of the energy. If you think you know the answer, show me your calculations.

                  You are claiming that a bigger and lighter VAWT than the ALT could be cheaper. Yes. The Sharp Cycloturbine could be bigger, lighter, and cheaper. But so what? Why do you care?

                  PeterS

                   

                  From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                  Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2019 5:22 PM
                  To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

                   

                   

                  We agree on this PeterS- "the ALT is not intended to include flying the VAWT as a power kite, so they have no reason to address the power to weight ratio". When we address power-to-weight, its no breakthrough. The power kite wins.

                   

                  A bigger VAWT with the same mass as an ALT can have greater Cp is my prediction. Let the future judge.

                   

                  We agree that you don't see DS in the CycloKite in your beach wind. Let the future judge.

                   

                  Lets hope someone tries the ALT to test the claims in favor and against, on a pole and airborne.

                  On ‎Thursday‎, ‎June‎ ‎27‎, ‎2019‎ ‎07‎:‎04‎:‎14‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

                  Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26655 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/27/2019
                  Subject: If not, then not

                  Claim: 

                  If one is not slowing the wind with Device, 

                  then Device is not converting the wind's kinetic energy to distinct other forms of energy. 

                  ============================================================
                  Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26656 From: dave santos Date: 6/27/2019
                  Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring
                  Peter I told you the Wikipedia article only defines DS more broadly than Obstacle-based. If you want proof the cyclokite in a gradient does not develop any DS boost, you'll need to develop it yourself.

                  I'll keep an open mind how to best prove DS applies. Its anti-intellectual to think proof must happen on soured demand, rather than by due patience. This is a well provable question in time. One of us will prove correct. Let your own proofs set the high standard you seek of others in vain.



                   

                  No, Dave, your reference to the WP definition of DS does not address in any way your claim that the Cyclo-Kite employs the DS principle. If you are now claiming that the WP anaimation is not relevant to your claim, then you should not have presented it as evidence.

                  No, Dave, you are wrong again: I do see the dynamic similarity that you see, and it is one that is irrelevant. That is what you do not see. Just because they both fly loops doesn’t mean they are based on the same principle. You are over-emphasizing one similarity while ignoring all of the dis-similarities. That is you habit. I’ve seen you do it hundreds of times.

                  When you abandon the argument by saying, “Let future scholars settle who was right here,” that is an intellectual bluff. It is avoiding responsibility for your erroneous claim.

                  PeterS

                   

                  From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                  Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2019 5:15 PM
                  To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

                   

                   

                  Wikipedia is only cited to define DS as normally understood, with the animation showing what I think is dynamic similarity to you CycloKite. No one claims this proves or disproves your claim of no DS.

                   

                  Let future scholars settle who was right here. Sorry you don't see the same dynamic similarity I see.

                   

                  On ‎Thursday‎, ‎June‎ ‎27‎, ‎2019‎ ‎06‎:‎23‎:‎11‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

                  Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26657 From: dave santos Date: 6/27/2019
                  Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                  Peter, The Power Kite is the gold standard WECS in AWE because so much data exists. Nothing else is close. Read the many research papers, starting with Loyd. Read the specs in power kite sports.

                  All I am comparing now is the stark lack of ALT data by power kite standards. I am not claiming enough ALT data exists to fully compare. I am predicting ALT test data will fall short when the comparison is finally possible. You can predict otherwise.



                   

                  Dave, it is inappropriate to try to compare a power kite to an ALT VAWT. Nobody has the data to make the comparison. The bottom line is the lifetime cost of the energy. If you think you know the answer, show me your calculations.

                  You are claiming that a bigger and lighter VAWT than the ALT could be cheaper. Yes. The Sharp Cycloturbine could be bigger, lighter, and cheaper. But so what? Why do you care?

                  PeterS

                   

                  From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                  Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2019 5:22 PM
                  To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

                   

                   

                  We agree on this PeterS- "the ALT is not intended to include flying the VAWT as a power kite, so they have no reason to address the power to weight ratio". When we address power-to-weight, its no breakthrough. The power kite wins.

                   

                  A bigger VAWT with the same mass as an ALT can have greater Cp is my prediction. Let the future judge.

                   

                  We agree that you don't see DS in the CycloKite in your beach wind. Let the future judge.

                   

                  Lets hope someone tries the ALT to test the claims in favor and against, on a pole and airborne.

                  On ‎Thursday‎, ‎June‎ ‎27‎, ‎2019‎ ‎07‎:‎04‎:‎14‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

                  Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26658 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/27/2019
                  Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                  Hi Peter,

                  Let us take an example. SuperTurbine (tm) transfers its torque to make power. If we add a winch for reeling, during reel-out phase ST will take power from active lift (yoyo or reeling kites are also named as lift devices) like a yoyo device makes, but in the same time it will loss some torque, due to a lower apparent wind that is the price of the lift power use. If there is little downwind motion, there is also little power more, resulting little torque less.
                  Another example, for rotating AWES a lifting kite is used to increase the transferable torque. 
                  With ALT concept the power is divided into lift (axis yy') and tangential force (axis xx'). This division is at least counter-intuitive. 
                  Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26659 From: dave santos Date: 6/27/2019
                  Subject: New Small AWES COTS Power Component Options- "Portable Power Station
                  It has long been necessary to clumsily assemble a number of essential power devices to "do everything" remotely, from wind and solar power controllers, to battery banks, inverters, conditioners, usb charging, and so on.

                  Now there are increasingly high quality integrated units that do all of the above, starting at about 100EU, as "portable power plants" (often wrongly labeled "generators"), up to a few thousand EU for a "power wall" like Tesla's home-grid unit. All these make putting together a useful remote power system increasingly easy and affordable. 

                  Look for features like swappable batteries, solar panel (and small-wind) input channels, and AC-charging seamlessly (some camping units home-charge disabled). Consider cross connection to auto 12V and fuel backup generators, for ultimate possibilities. Electric cars are becoming standard power stations that do it all. There are more types all the time and a bargain after-market developing.

                  The key component for AWE pioneering is a power source like the Kiwee or other small AWES for a primary charging source matched to its power station unit. A suitable solar panel is a good compliment. Its starting to get easy to have tremendous power flexibility and independence at reasonable cost. The good life is attainable at about 50W average continuous per person.

                  For those seeking to market a small AWES WECS and gen, bundle it with a COTS power station for high added value and more profit.

                  Example units- 
                  Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26660 From: dave santos Date: 6/27/2019
                  Subject: Dynamic Lift as Dynamic Soaring Superset
                  "Dynamic Lift" has been long used to distinguish from "Static Lift". Most traditional aeronautical engineering has centered on static lift states as easier problems with plenty of applications. Dynamic Lift has come to fore in modern aeroelasticity and biological flight science. Dynamic Soaring is dynamic lift applied to soaring flight. DS is a subset of DL; the opposite of SL.

                  DL is the whole zoo of lift effects that vary in time. Lift and drag are seen as gradient states. Static lift defines a gradient field itself dynamic. Dynamic gradients cause a static wing to act dynamic. We can also ponder dynamic drag, the buffeting of a drogue by passing gradient flows.

                  The longitudinal asymmetry of a wing is the structural basis of DL, When a good springy wing is buffeted, it tends to propel forward. A sufficiently turbulent wind field provides enough free energy to sustain flight. Any seagull in a gale can fly around just by being DS buffeted by the turbulence gradients.

                  This is part of what happens rising in a thermal core. Its not just the rising air, but the rich gradients with surrounding air that help drive a good wing forward and upward. When the condor is rocked on the wing, it adds DS energy to that of rising current. Its important that DS airframe aeroelasticity and turning patterns harmonically match the wind field gradients tapped.

                  Whoosh...
                  Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26661 From: dave santos Date: 6/27/2019
                  Subject: Re: DS Aeronautics Updated
                  Formally identifying Wilson and German's tethered airfoil pairs operating across wind gradients as a major DS class.

                  Has this perfect match been cited as DS before?



                   

                  Let ALT claims about Betz stand as written. Let PeterS judge them a "metaphor", not a "literal" claim as he thinks was somehow wrongly implied.

                  Let Pierre think a glider or kite does not sweep across the sky much like a rotor blade, and that PeterS is correct about DS and his cyclokite.

                  I am happy with our range of beliefs. Whoever is right or wrong does not have to be agreed here. All our positions stand as written.

                  On ‎Thursday‎, ‎June‎ ‎27‎, ‎2019‎ ‎07‎:‎09‎:‎16‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


                   

                  Hi JoeF,

                  If you start with the ambient wind (no wind gradient) at the speed near the ground, and then add a positive wind gradient, you will increase the average speed of the wind and the power of the Cyclo-Kite. But that in no way indicates that the Cyclo-Kite functions like a DS glider.

                  PeterS

                   

                  From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                  Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2019 3:53 PM
                  To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [AWES] DS Aeronautics Updated

                   

                   

                  Typo: 

                  FORMER:

                  What may be advantageous is that the gradient increases from ground up.  Think of the low velocity as "ambient" for system, and then a new "ambient" is gifted the system higher up; and more gift to the system higher up yet for the windward quadrants 1 and 2. 

                   

                  CORRECTION to:  

                  What may be advantageous is that the gradient increases from ground up.  Think of the low velocity as "ambient" for system, and then a new "ambient" is gifted the system higher up; and more gift to the system higher up yet for the windward quadrant 2 and downwind quadrant 3.  

                   

                  ================Note: Q2 is not a "windward" quadrant per acceptance of Peter's nomenclature for quadrants. 

                   

                  Reader, thanks for the energy to handle the correction; I'll reciprocate if ever any Reader steps through a correction process. Best to you and yours!

                  We have no way to edit something already posted beyond deletion and reposting, or this method of announcing a correction. 

                  =========================================

                  =============! ============================

                   

                  Further, Peter,

                             Invitation: negative DS for inverted wind gradient for the Cyclo-kite; and positive DS for the wind gradient experienced in the video at the beach.

                   

                   
                  Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26662 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/28/2019
                  Subject: Re: DS Aeronautics Updated
                  Adding a paper for study: 
                  John J. Bird∗ and Jack W. Langelaan† 
                  The Pennsylvania State University, University Park, PA 16802 USA 
                  Corey Montella‡ , John Spletzer§ , and Joachim Grenestedt¶ 
                  Lehigh University, Bethlehem, PA 18015 USA

                  "This paper examines closed-loop dynamic soaring by small autonomous aircraft."
                  Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26663 From: dougselsam Date: 6/28/2019
                  Subject: Re: If not, then not
                  This is well-known.  First grade.


                  ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <joefaust333@...
                  Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26664 From: dougselsam Date: 6/28/2019
                  Subject: Re: Power Kite as AWE's One Basic Breakthrough
                  Using a kite that you say could generate kW to light a little LED is not loading the kite sufficiently to demonstrate the kite's capabilities.  The kite can go fast or slow, being unloaded.  With a more powerful rotor the drag might prevent fast flying, and the weight might prevent flight altogether.  Any demo is interesting, but not sure if the varying LED shows us much of anything new over, say, good ole' mothballed Makani.


                  ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <pierre-benhaiem@...
                  Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26665 From: dougselsam Date: 6/28/2019
                  Subject: Re: One kilogram AWES and the good effected?
                  You know as I browse through the messages since yesterday, it is hard to believe you guys can go on like this, just endless nothingness about nothing whatsoever.  Flagging wikipedia articles about dynamic soaring over and over, talking about some whatever-lift crapola - "active" - sure, active.  Whatever keeps you happy doing nothing.
                  I express my skepticism over the years-old excuse for doing nothing of "providing shade" where Joe can literally take a nap under some trash from the side of the road and call it AWE research, and you come back saying you supposedly got a grant in 2009 (what, ten dollars?) and "Bill Gates".  Because Bill Gates =  

                  ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

                  I knew you would go to your knee-jerk response of "providing shade".
                  Or you hearken back to the time a kite flow across the Niagara river.
                  You guys are just nuts.
                  What about the "good" of sticking to the original stated goal of generating electricity?
                  Or, I guess you could stick to imagining emergencies like a guy stuck in the sunshine, with nothing around but a single kite.  How can he block the sun?  What a puzzle!  What a brain-teaser!  Great, Joe.  Stay tuned for our next exciting episode!  After 12 years, your contribution to AWE is reminding us that a kite can bring a thread across a gorge (200-year-old routine use of a kite) and that light can be blocked by kite fabric?  That was all already known before we were born.   Magnificent.  Thanks, I guess you've made your mark.  How about where the guy gets dehydrated from running around trying to stay in the shadow?  oh wait - he's not actually going to FLY the kite, just crawl under it, tied to his house, right Joe?  AAnd he can't just go in his house to escape the sun, he needs "a kite".  And if it isn't actually a kite, but just a piece of trash from the side of the road, no problem, it will still work!  Wow what a technological breakthrough!
                  BTW, is this "contest" kind of like the daveS "AWE-powered concert"?  Like, there's nothing to it?  Like it won't actually happen?  Just more online blurting of your latest kite fantasies?  I swear this forum is so nuts...


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                  Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26666 From: Joe Faust Date: 6/28/2019
                  Subject: Re: One kilogram AWES and the good effected?
                  Students:  yes. thanks. 
                  Judges may not win the prize. 
                  Date has changed.  Date will be set after announcement plan is designed and executed.  
                  Announcement plan is not yet designed. 
                  Seven people were nominated to be judges. Three have accepted the nomination, so far: Faust, Santos, Selsam.   We are waiting for a reply from the other four nominees. Aim: uneven number of judges. 
                  Prize of first contest has been raised from $10 to $100 USD, sponsored by EnergyKiteSystems. 
                  A special topic thread will be set up just for participants to post their entry reports. 
                  Criteria on judges' table have not been outlined yet. 
                  Kite system AWES may face any practical good work, not only electricity generation. 
                  Mass limit for lines and wings in the AWES:  one kilogram.   Earth anchor mass is not included in the mass of the AWES. 
                  Participants: Describe AWES. Describe the good work achieved by the AWES.  Illustrations may tend to sway the judges. AWES needs to be built and flown; the good work described must be believably achieved. Convince the judges!
                  Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26667 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/28/2019
                  Subject: Re: Power Kite as AWE's One Basic Breakthrough
                  The light allows to see the variations of power during the figure-eight, not the potential power. The same for the sound.
                  A power kite like mine has a L/D ratio of 4. With an optimized turbine aloft it becomes 2/3 so 2.66 (2/3 is also the apparent wind speed during reel-out phase, but leading to 4/27 Betz limit instead of 16/27 Betz limit for flygen and rotors).
                  If lift coefficient is 1.2, drag coefficient is 0.3 the kite alone, then is 0.45 the kite with the turbine aloft.
                  To optimize my 1.5 m² kite, the propeller diameter should be about 0.55 cm.

                  I noted that the diameter of turbines (and their swept area) on Makani 600 is very high, probably due to VTOL requirement. So if the thrust coefficient of the turbines during the generation is not very low, the turbine drag will be too high. 
                    
                  Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26668 From: dave santos Date: 6/28/2019
                  Subject: Re: If not, then not
                  The claim overlooks accelerating wind to up-convert it into a new form of energy, like a hot plasma beam, say.

                  Thermodynamics should be introduced by first grade, to make out-of-box insight more common later.





                   

                  This is well-known.  First grade.



                  ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <joefaust333@...
                  Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26669 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/28/2019
                  Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                  Attachments :

                    DaveS,

                    What you are saying is dumb. It has been explained to you perhaps a dozen times already it makes no sense to judge the ALT as a power kite because it is not designed to be a power kite. You don’t seem to be able to understand the simplest concepts. Do you criticize your car for being a lousy power kite?

                    One example of Active Lift for AWE is holding kites up in the air. The downwind pressure is converted to an upward force. But they don’t use Active Lift for producing power; they use it to hold them up. So the next step is to try to find a way for power kites to use Active Lift to create additional power.

                    Another example is the Cyclo-Kite. Active Lift causes the orbit to be shifted downwind of its rotational axis. The orbit is eccentric somewhat like the orbit of Version 2 of the ALT. Pressure on the blade when upwind reduces the rotor radius to the blade. And pressure on the blade when downwind increases the rotor radius to the blade. Plus, the centrifugal potential energy stored in the blade upwind is released when the blade is downwind. So the downwind blade pass produces a much stronger pulling force than the upwind blade pass. (Other things happen too, but I won’t bother to explain them here.)

                    PeterS

                     

                    From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                    Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2019 5:38 PM
                    To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

                     

                     

                    I am saying the ALT does not compare well by power-to-weight with standard power kites, based on known parameters of rigid structure, scaling, and so on.

                     

                    Lack of examples of active lift in flight for AWE is the problem in an AWES context. Any examples in that regard are wanted.

                     

                    On ‎Thursday‎, ‎June‎ ‎27‎, ‎2019‎ ‎07‎:‎24‎:‎46‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

                    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26670 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/28/2019
                    Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring
                    Attachments :

                      No, Dave. You made the claim that the Cyclo-Kite includes DS, so it’s up to you to show how. You have repeatedly failed to do so. Your claim is BS.

                      PeterS

                       

                       

                      From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                      Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2019 5:48 PM
                      To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

                       

                       

                      Peter I told you the Wikipedia article only defines DS more broadly than Obstacle-based. If you want proof the cyclokite in a gradient does not develop any DS boost, you'll need to develop it yourself.

                       

                      I'll keep an open mind how to best prove DS applies. Its anti-intellectual to think proof must happen on soured demand, rather than by due patience. This is a well provable question in time. One of us will prove correct. Let your own proofs set the high standard you seek of others in vain.

                       

                      On ‎Thursday‎, ‎June‎ ‎27‎, ‎2019‎ ‎07‎:‎33‎:‎21‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

                      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26671 From: dougselsam Date: 6/28/2019
                      Subject: Re: Power Kite as AWE's One Basic Breakthrough
                      What I see is more word-definition fixation.  Any kite supposedly producing power might be "called" a "power-kite".
                      Any kite producing pull could be called a "traction kite".  And you have lifters, sleds, kite-surfing kites of all kinds, stunt-kites, stacked flexifoils, single-surfac, double-surface, paragliders and not to mention hang gliders, hard kiteplanes, etc.  Is McBlarney "a power-kite"?.  All the definitions overlap.  The thing was, you were going to show us how to generate power from a kite.  Any kte.  If trsh from the side of the rod is "a kite" and if concrete blocks underground are "a wing" then you definitions mean nothing.  You guys have abused the concept of a 'word" to the point that your own words have lost any meaning.
                      After 12 years of talk, you're still trying to solve the challenge of airborne wind energy by arguing about word definitions with me.  No, you need to spin a generator or the equivalent to generate power, not argue with me about word definitions.
                      The "over-reliance on power-meters" quip was the end of the line for your already tenuous credibility, as far as I'm concerned.
                      Meanwhile, the power of any demo is proportional to the size, cost, complexity.  A small, simple, cheap device that produces a lot of power for its size is impressive.  A big kite producing less than a Watt can be ignored.  A kite of substantial size being used to effect the normal operation of a self-winding watch does not demonstrate any promising capability of kite power.  Instead it is a childish excuse, based on a talking-point-oriented attempt to deceive.  Just one more example of the silliness of even attempting to have a meaningful discussion with certain people.  It's hard to believe anyone could come up with the arguments you make.  I think you and Seiko have the record for the least-powerful,most meaningless AWE demo ever.  The idea is not to show the most effort for the least power.  The idea is to show the most power for the least effort.


                      ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

                      OK That was a nice review, but what I was asking about is a powerkite generating electricity, in useful amounts.  We already know a moving kite can push a windmill through the air.  That's old news.  And we know a windmill can certainly hang from a kite and can certainly light an attached LED. I was wondering about a power kite generating electric power to be used on the ground, by somehow spinning a generator using its lines, for example?
                      I think you've done some nice demos Pierre.  I did not realize the kite you used was considered a "power kite".
                      I'm really trying to get daveS to show us how to use a "power" kite to generate "power".
                      He's been brainstorming it for 12 years.  Wondering if he has had any success.
                      Lighting LED's is a nice trick, but what about generating significant power, like where you could help to power a home, or completely power a home?
                      All the talk about crosswind kite power - where is a system flying a power kite back and forth cross the wind, spinning a generator?
                      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26672 From: dave santos Date: 6/28/2019
                      Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                      PeterS, Comparing AWES concepts and hardware is what we do here, dumb or not. The ALT compares very poorly with power kites by just offering first-party theory and your "breakthrough" claim, but no proper comparison data. Skepticism in AWE is well based on known low power-to-weight of VAWT class. Power kites are the highest power-to-weight of known flying WECS.

                      Sorry you think using the power kite in AWE for baseline data is dumb liar nonsense. Its really not.



                       

                      DaveS,

                      What you are saying is dumb. It has been explained to you perhaps a dozen times already it makes no sense to judge the ALT as a power kite because it is not designed to be a power kite. You don’t seem to be able to understand the simplest concepts. Do you criticize your car for being a lousy power kite?

                      One example of Active Lift for AWE is holding kites up in the air. The downwind pressure is converted to an upward force. But they don’t use Active Lift for producing power; they use it to hold them up. So the next step is to try to find a way for power kites to use Active Lift to create additional power.

                      Another example is the Cyclo-Kite. Active Lift causes the orbit to be shifted downwind of its rotational axis. The orbit is eccentric somewhat like the orbit of Version 2 of the ALT. Pressure on the blade when upwind reduces the rotor radius to the blade. And pressure on the blade when downwind increases the rotor radius to the blade. Plus, the centrifugal potential energy stored in the blade upwind is released when the blade is downwind. So the downwind blade pass produces a much stronger pulling force than the upwind blade pass. (Other things happen too, but I won’t bother to explain them here.)

                      PeterS

                       

                      From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                      Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2019 5:38 PM
                      To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

                       

                       

                      I am saying the ALT does not compare well by power-to-weight with standard power kites, based on known parameters of rigid structure, scaling, and so on.

                       

                      Lack of examples of active lift in flight for AWE is the problem in an AWES context. Any examples in that regard are wanted.

                       

                      On ‎Thursday‎, ‎June‎ ‎27‎, ‎2019‎ ‎07‎:‎24‎:‎46‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

                      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26673 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/28/2019
                      Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                      Attachments :

                        No, Dave, you are again missing the point entirely. Nobody has claimed that the ALT is better than power kites. It’s a new concept. Test data is not yet available. The value of the ALT is in the fact that it introduces a new principle. That principle might be of value to inventors of power kites. But clearly it won’t be of any value to you because you immediately look to ways to reject it without understanding it.

                        PeterS

                         

                        From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                        Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2019 5:55 PM
                        To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

                         

                         

                        Peter, The Power Kite is the gold standard WECS in AWE because so much data exists. Nothing else is close. Read the many research papers, starting with Loyd. Read the specs in power kite sports.

                         

                        All I am comparing now is the stark lack of ALT data by power kite standards. I am not claiming enough ALT data exists to fully compare. I am predicting ALT test data will fall short when the comparison is finally possible.. You can predict otherwise.

                         

                        On ‎Thursday‎, ‎June‎ ‎27‎, ‎2019‎ ‎07‎:‎42‎:‎20‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

                        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26674 From: dougselsam Date: 6/28/2019
                        Subject: Re: If not, then not

                        Sure daveS, "a hot plasma beam".  One more pseudo-genius talking-point excuse for doing nothing whatsoever.  You really like using the word "hot", don't you?  "Hot kites"  What about "hot dogs"?  Like those flying spinning hot dogs you buys were so enamored with a few months ago?  What happened to THAT "essential" conversation?  Now we're back to trying to rescue the Darrieus machine.  Like  thousand crackpots that have come and gone before.  Now we;re trying to endlessly play with the word "lift"
                        Is there anything else we need to take into account here before we get to making power using the wind?  Or are you ready to get to work and show us how to make power using a kite?

                        ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

                        This is well-known.  First grade.



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                        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26675 From: dave santos Date: 6/28/2019
                        Subject: Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring
                        Peter, the Wikipedia animation shows how a looping aircraft in a gradient gets a boost. The cyclokite was flying in a gradient on the beach, with close dynamic similarity to the animation.

                        Lets agree that's BS to you, but you won't get a better explanation.



                         

                        No, Dave. You made the claim that the Cyclo-Kite includes DS, so it’s up to you to show how. You have repeatedly failed to do so. Your claim is BS.

                        PeterS

                         

                         

                        From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                        Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2019 5:48 PM
                        To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: Wikipedia on Dynamic Soaring

                         

                         

                        Peter I told you the Wikipedia article only defines DS more broadly than Obstacle-based. If you want proof the cyclokite in a gradient does not develop any DS boost, you'll need to develop it yourself.

                         

                        I'll keep an open mind how to best prove DS applies. Its anti-intellectual to think proof must happen on soured demand, rather than by due patience. This is a well provable question in time. One of us will prove correct. Let your own proofs set the high standard you seek of others in vain.

                         

                        On ‎Thursday‎, ‎June‎ ‎27‎, ‎2019‎ ‎07‎:‎33‎:‎21‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

                        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26676 From: dave santos Date: 6/28/2019
                        Subject: Re: Power Kite as AWE's One Basic Breakthrough
                        Doug, The Power Kite is a well understood class of kites, like Pierre's flygen demo used. The basic criteria is useful power.

                        Ignore our claims of Power Kite identification. Rely on Wikipedia to settle for you what is meant-

                        Power kite






                         

                        What I see is more word-definition fixation.  Any kite supposedly producing power might be "called" a "power-kite".
                        Any kite producing pull could be called a "traction kite".  And you have lifters, sleds, kite-surfing kites of all kinds, stunt-kites, stacked flexifoils, single-surfac, double-surface, paragliders and not to mention hang gliders, hard kiteplanes, etc.  Is McBlarney "a power-kite"?.  All the definitions overlap.  The thing was, you were going to show us how to generate power from a kite.  Any kte.  If trsh from the side of the rod is "a kite" and if concrete blocks underground are "a wing" then you definitions mean nothing.  You guys have abused the concept of a 'word" to the point that your own words have lost any meaning.
                        After 12 years of talk, you're still trying to solve the challenge of airborne wind energy by arguing about word definitions with me.  No, you need to spin a generator or the equivalent to generate power, not argue with me about word definitions.
                        The "over-reliance on power-meters" quip was the end of the line for your already tenuous credibility, as far as I'm concerned.
                        Meanwhile, the power of any demo is proportional to the size, cost, complexity.  A small, simple, cheap device that produces a lot of power for its size is impressive.  A big kite producing less than a Watt can be ignored.  A kite of substantial size being used to effect the normal operation of a self-winding watch does not demonstrate any promising capability of kite power.  Instead it is a childish excuse, based on a talking-point-oriented attempt to deceive.  Just one more example of the silliness of even attempting to have a meaningful discussion with certain people.  It's hard to believe anyone could come up with the arguments you make.  I think you and Seiko have the record for the least-powerful,most meaningless AWE demo ever.  The idea is not to show the most effort for the least power.  The idea is to show the most power for the least effort.


                        ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

                        OK That was a nice review, but what I was asking about is a powerkite generating electricity, in useful amounts.  We already know a moving kite can push a windmill through the air.  That's old news.  And we know a windmill can certainly hang from a kite and can certainly light an attached LED. I was wondering about a power kite generating electric power to be used on the ground, by somehow spinning a generator using its lines, for example?
                        I think you've done some nice demos Pierre.  I did not realize the kite you used was considered a "power kite".
                        I'm really trying to get daveS to show us how to use a "power" kite to generate "power".
                        He's been brainstorming it for 12 years.  Wondering if he has had any success.
                        Lighting LED's is a nice trick, but what about generating significant power, like where you could help to power a home, or completely power a home?
                        All the talk about crosswind kite power - where is a system flying a power kite back and forth cross the wind, spinning a generator?
                        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26677 From: dave santos Date: 6/28/2019
                        Subject: Re: If not, then not
                        Doug, sorry you missed the logical exception allowed by JoeF's challenge.



                         


                        Sure daveS, "a hot plasma beam".  One more pseudo-genius talking-point excuse for doing nothing whatsoever.  You really like using the word "hot", don't you?  "Hot kites"  What about "hot dogs"?  Like those flying spinning hot dogs you buys were so enamored with a few months ago?  What happened to THAT "essential" conversation?  Now we're back to trying to rescue the Darrieus machine.  Like  thousand crackpots that have come and gone before.  Now we;re trying to endlessly play with the word "lift"
                        Is there anything else we need to take into account here before we get to making power using the wind?  Or are you ready to get to work and show us how to make power using a kite?

                        ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

                        This is well-known.  First grade.



                        ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <joefaust333@...
                        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26678 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/28/2019
                        Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                        Attachments :

                          Hi PierreB,

                          As far as I can tell, you are saying that a power kite with a reel-out sacrifices power because it is moving downwind, which reduces the true wind speed acting on the power kite. If that is what you are say, then yes, that is what happens. The available power is reduced to roughly 1/3 of what it would be if the power kite were stationary in the wind and subject to the full true wind.

                          Then you seem to be saying that the ALT is counter-intuitive (it certainly is!!!) because it produce power in two different ways, not just the usually way: by generating a tangential force. I agree.

                          Did I miss your point?

                          PeterS

                           

                           

                          From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                          Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2019 6:15 PM
                          To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

                           

                           

                          Hi Peter,

                           

                          Let us take an example. SuperTurbine (tm) transfers its torque to make power. If we add a winch for reeling, during reel-out phase ST will take power from active lift (yoyo or reeling kites are also named as lift devices) like a yoyo device makes, but in the same time it will loss some torque, due to a lower apparent wind that is the price of the lift power use. If there is little downwind motion, there is also little power more, resulting little torque less.

                          Another example, for rotating AWES a lifting kite is used to increase the transferable torque. 

                          With ALT concept the power is divided into lift (axis yy') and tangential force (axis xx'). This division is at least counter-intuitive. 

                           

                           
                          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26679 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/28/2019
                          Subject: Re: DS Aeronautics Updated
                          DYNAMIC SOARING EXPLAINED 
                          ==================================== 
                          ====================================
                          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26680 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/28/2019
                          Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                          Hi PeterS,

                          Yes. I precise a reeling flygen would be concerned, lossing tangential force during reel-out phase. 
                          My idea is that by using active lift, we loss tangential force. So a prototype of an ALT VAWT or a complete simulation would be needed in order to validate the ALT concept. 
                          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26681 From: dave santos Date: 6/28/2019
                          Subject: Re: DS Aeronautics Updated
                          Great Source JoeF. Should help PeterS with his issues concerning DS low altitude and "blocking (only)" definition. This text jumped out-

                          " Deittert et al. show that the probability of winds that permit dynamic soaring by small uavs exceeds 50% in the southern oceans, and this probability is roughly 90% for albatrosses.4 The difference is because albatrosses can descend to very low altitude (dragging a wingtip in the water) and uavs must maintain a significant safety margin. "

                          Peter's Cyclokite similarly flies very low, where he claims wind gradient hurts his performance.

                          PeterS, keep and open mind about whether we can prove to you anything. We have not given up so fast, but continue to offer you evidence.
                          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26682 From: dave santos Date: 6/28/2019
                          Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                          Like Reeling AWES wings, classic VAWT motion requires blade mass to lose time in headwind and downwind phase-states. AWES and HAWT design options include pure crosswind travel modes.



                           

                          Hi PeterS,


                          Yes. I precise a reeling flygen would be concerned, lossing tangential force during reel-out phase. 
                          My idea is that by using active lift, we loss tangential force. So a prototype of an ALT VAWT or a complete simulation would be needed in order to validate the ALT concept. 
                          Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26683 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/28/2019
                          Subject: Re: Dynamic Lift as Dynamic Soaring Superset
                          Attachments :

                            DaveS,

                            Please define in your own words the difference between “lift”, “static lift”, and “dynamic lift”.

                            Please define in your own words the difference between “soaring” and “dynamic soaring”.

                            PeterS

                             

                            From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                            Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2019 7:35 PM
                            To: Yahoogroups <airbornewindenergy@yahoogroups.com

                            Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26684 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/28/2019
                            Subject: Re: DS Aeronautics Updated
                            Nothing new. The video is already known. Do you try to include the Cyclo-Kite in your so-called "DS Aeronautics updated"?
                            Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26685 From: dougselsam Date: 6/28/2019
                            Subject: Re: If not, then not
                            Dear daveS:  The idea that the wind is slowed when extracting kinetic energy from the wind is long-recognized.
                            One more first-grade concept.  After 12 years of supposed wind energy research?  And you're still trying to figure out the ABC's?  Really?
                            Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26686 From: dave santos Date: 6/28/2019
                            Subject: Re: Dynamic Lift as Dynamic Soaring Superset
                            Peter,

                            I rely on standard or casual usage by third parties like Wikipedia and aeronautical engineers. 

                            You just tend to claim "nonsense" if I do otherwise.
                            Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26687 From: Peter Sharp Date: 6/28/2019
                            Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT
                            Attachments :

                              No, Dave, you’ve got it wrong again. You fail to separate the concept from the hardware. The concept of Active Lift is what is of interest to AWE, not the specific hardware of the Active Lift Tubine.

                              PeterS

                               

                              From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                              Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 8:22 AM
                              To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

                               

                               

                              PeterS, Comparing AWES concepts and hardware is what we do here, dumb or not. The ALT compares very poorly with power kites by just offering first-party theory and your "breakthrough" claim, but no proper comparison data. Skepticism in AWE is well based on known low power-to-weight of VAWT class. Power kites are the highest power-to-weight of known flying WECS.

                               

                              Sorry you think using the power kite in AWE for baseline data is dumb liar nonsense. Its really not.

                               

                              On ‎Friday‎, ‎June‎ ‎28‎, ‎2019‎ ‎10‎:‎11‎:‎58‎ ‎AM‎ ‎CDT, 'Peter Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

                              Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26688 From: dougselsam Date: 6/28/2019
                              Subject: Re: Dynamic Lift as Dynamic Soaring Superset



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                              Peter: Don't forget "active" lift, buoyant lift, lift using a crane, thermal lift, the psychological lift JoeF gets when he jumps over something, etc.  What about the reverse (downward) dynamic lift JoeF ascribed to a buried concrete block, calling it a wing, saying it was possible it could move microscopic amounts over years?  And that such archaeolgically-slow movement would nonetheless provide an extra downward force on a concrete block over the static forces?  There's another whacko-distraction to confuse people. 
                              Is it time to check into a mental hospital?

                              Infinitely-strained word definitions:  Is there anything more to life?  For some people, apparently not.  Why not just forget about AWE and everyone try to get a job with Webster's Dictionary?  In their "redefining words" department? Oh wait, they are laying off people?  Oh no, now what are we gonna do?  We need to spend all day every day arguing about word definitions!  With certifiably insane people.  That's important.


                              DaveS,

                              Please define in your own words the difference between “lift”, “static lift”, and “dynamic lift”.

                              Please define in your own words the difference between “soaring” and “dynamic soaring”.

                              PeterS

                               

                              From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
                              Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2019 7:35 PM
                              To: Yahoogroups <airbornewindenergy@yahoogroups.com

                              Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 26689 From: dave santos Date: 6/28/2019
                              Subject: Re: DS Aeronautics Updated
                              Pierre, the video might be new to PeterS.

                              The "Cyclokite" seems to me to get a boost from DS in beach wind, but quasi trade-mark names make for poor classification, so no, I would not seek to create classes based on such names, but seek descriptors like "looping arch". Yes, I do find looping arches are boosted by gradient, and DL is more precise than DS, although both are easily understood.



                               

                              Nothing new. The video is already known. Do you try to include the Cyclo-Kite in your so-called "DS Aeronautics updated"?