Digest

Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group. AWES 26490 to 26539

Page 421 of 440.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26490	From: dave santos	Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26491	From: dougselsam	Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26492	From: joe_f_90032	Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26493	From: joe_f_90032	Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: lift without drag? lifting gas?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26494	From: joe_f_90032	Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Points of Sailing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26495	From: joe_f_90032	Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26496	From: benhaiemp	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26497	From: benhaiemp	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26498	From: dave santos	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26499	From: dave santos	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: lift without drag? lifting gas?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26500	From: dougselsam	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: lift without drag? lifting gas?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26501	From: dave santos	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Points of Sailing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26502	From: dougselsam	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26503	From: dougselsam	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: lift without drag? lifting gas?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26504	From: dave santos	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26505	From: dougselsam	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Points of Sailing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26506	From: dave santos	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: lift without drag? lifting gas?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26507	From: dave santos	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Points of Sailing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26508	From: Pierre BENHAIEM	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26509	From: Pierre BENHAIEM	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26510	From: dave santos	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT [1 Attachment]

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26511	From: Pierre BENHAIEM	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26512	From: dave santos	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26513	From: dave santos	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Power Kite as AWE's One Basic Breakthrough

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26514	From: dave santos	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26515	From: joe_f_90032	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Sharp's FFAWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26516	From: joe_f_90032	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Remote energy from kite systems at the high jump arena

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26517	From: Pierre BENHAIEM	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26518	From: dave santos	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26519	From: Pierre BENHAIEM	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26520	From: dougselsam	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Power Kite as AWE's One Basic Breakthrough

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26521	From: joe_f_90032	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: One kilogram AWES and the good effected?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26522	From: dave santos	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Power Kite as AWE's One Basic Breakthrough

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26523	From: dougselsam	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Power Kite as AWE's One Basic Breakthrough

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26524	From: dave santos	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Power Kite as AWE's One Basic Breakthrough

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26525	From: dougselsam	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: One kilogram AWES and the good effected?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26526	From: dave santos	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Student Team AWE Flyoff

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26527	From: benhaiemp	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Power Kite as AWE's One Basic Breakthrough

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26528	From: dave santos	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Doug's First Power Kite?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26529	From: dave santos	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: One kilogram AWES and the good effected?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26530	From: Joe Faust	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Tale of Tails in AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26531	From: dave santos	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: One kilogram AWES and the good effected?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26532	From: dougselsam	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Power Kite as AWE's One Basic Breakthrough

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26533	From: dougselsam	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: One kilogram AWES and the good effected?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26534	From: dave santos	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Power Kite as AWE's One Basic Breakthrough

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26535	From: dave santos	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: One kilogram AWES and the good effected?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26536	From: Joe Faust	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: One kilogram AWES and the good effected?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26537	From: dave santos	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: One kilogram AWES and the good effected?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26538	From: benhaiemp	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Power Kite as AWE's One Basic Breakthrough

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26539	From: Peter Sharp	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Points of Sailing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26490	From: dave santos	Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Peter, look up "aerodynamic" in the NASA dictionary. It includes rising air and rocket exhaust gas. Consider a rocket that has passed out of the atmosphere still accelerating vertically. Once again, lift without drag. Every example given in support of Joe's zero-drag lift stands, as NASA right stuff.

Interesting to know, Peter.

Doug

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <sharpencil@...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26491	From: dougselsam	Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

I seriously think you must have brain damage.

You who was just bragging about your advanced aerodynamic knowledge yesterday.

You who claims to come from an aviation background.

In case you missed it, aerodynamic "lift" as the term is used in aerodynamics, is not referring to elevating something against gravity, unless that happens to be the use the airfoil or lifting body is being put to.

Lifting against gravity was the origin of the term, not the complete meaning of the term as used in aerodynamics.

In aerodynamics, lift can be in any direction perpendicular to motion through a fluid, while drag is parallel to the direction of travel through the fluid. We're always in first grade here, eh? After enough years for you to have earned 3 PhD's, we're explaining what we mean by "lift". M'kaaaaaayyyy?.

"Lift" is a phenomenon that is used to push in any direction perpendicular to relative motion through a fluid, such as pushing DOWN on a race car. Or sideways when turning in a steep bank. It usually likes laminar flow, and excessive turbulence can ruin it or mark its ruin. (stall)

I'm not gonna explain how it works here.

But most people get it wrong.

Aerodynamicists do not talk of this type of aerodynamic"lift' in the vacuum of space.

Aerodynamic lift as in lift from an airfoil requires surrounding air pressure for the principle to work.

Even a supersonic or reentry vehicle cannot have that type of lift but just a newtonian air-molecules-as-ping-pong-balls type of lift. "Lift" is a very special type of unexpectedly effective phenomenon that even very educated people often explain wrong. Not very commonly understood. Amazing how a low-flying jetliner looks like it is going too slow - it IS going too slow. It weighs many TONS! It can only fly because of the overMcWhelming miracle of aerodynamic airfoil lift, in a pressurized atmosphere environment.

The thrust of a rocket is called "thrust" and if the "thrust" happens to be aimed downward, it will lift the rocket against gravity, but that lift is not the same word usage as the meaning of aerodynamic lift.

That is the COMMON use of the word "lift", not the aerodynamic use of the term "lift".

And even rising air does not increase the aerodynamic lift, and when a glider pilot says he found some "lift", it doesn't mean his airfoils suddenly got more powerful, it just means he found some rising air so in that rising environment his wing, operating on the principle of aerodynamic lift, was also lifted in the common usage sense (elevation increase against gravity), by being in an environment that was rising, therefore the pilot was using the common use of the term "lift", not the aerodynamic use of the term "lift", because his airfoils provided the same aerodynamic lift as always, keeping him from descending too fast in a rising environment that was rising faster than the glider was descending and so provided the increase in elevation that could just as well have been provided by a crane. First grade. Always first grade. Word games in first grade. Gotta be toxoplasmosis.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...

Interesting to know, Peter.

Doug

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <sharpencil@... #ygrps-yiv-1482041046ygrps-yiv-1854716799yiv9377201801ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1482041046 #ygrps-yiv-1482041046ygrps-yiv-1854716799 #ygrps-yiv-1482041046ygrps-yiv-1854716799yiv9377201801 #ygrps-yiv-1482041046ygrps-yiv-1854716799yiv9377201801ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1482041046 #ygrps-yiv-1482041046ygrps-yiv-1854716799 #ygrps-yiv-1482041046ygrps-yiv-1854716799yiv9377201801 #ygrps-yiv-1482041046ygrps-yiv-1854716799yiv9377201801ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1482041046ygrps-yiv-1854716799yiv9377201801hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1482041046 #ygrps-yiv-1482041046ygrps-yiv-1854716799 #ygrps-yiv-1482041046ygrps-yiv-1854716799yiv9377201801 #ygrps-yiv-1482041046ygrps-yiv-1854716799yiv9377201801ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1482041046ygrps-yiv-1854716799yiv9377201801ads { margin-bottom:10px;} 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Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26492	From: joe_f_90032	Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

I laconically put:"Easy does it," without defining the pronoun "it."

I'll open the "it" some:

There has been in part of the flow of the forum a readiness to brainstorm over some items in order to reach into spaces that may not have been given attention in the forum. Amidst even serious technical runs, some dipping into the brainstorming mode has been enjoyed by some readers, Universals are key triggers for the devilish brainstorm phase. True to such subculture DaveS popped a package of teasers that was found interesting to me; I would have been poorer had he not taken the challenge. May we be "easy" enough to permit such mini sessions as we discuss matters.

Amidst fuzzy discussion, serendipity sometimes brings new interesting topics to the front. It may be neat that dislocations momentarily occur; such dislocations or rifts in perspectives tease out novel lines of thought.

As to the "correctness" of DaveS' offer about scenes of lift without drag, such got me considering his offers. We have had deep habit knowing about all kinds of sources of drag on objects in the atmosphere; and we have had solid habit of knowing that there are many drag sources when an airfoil is experiencing lift, no lift, or negative lift. I was teased from the intervention to schedule review of definitions, not yet completed. Each of his suggestions might open a new topic to explore validity. I would not want to write off the suggestions before exploring just how he came up with his suggestions, and to go perhaps further to seek for merit.

It is easy to read your perspective of "wrong" but that does not close the matter introduced by DaveS' suggestions. I'll open up a separate topic on each of his offers and not handle such in this ALT VAWT topic. .

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26493	From: joe_f_90032	Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: lift without drag? lifting gas?

. In atmospheres holding objects, is there "lift without drag" within "lifting gas" realm?

It was within another topic that DaveS suggested that "lift without drag" may occur in the "lifting gas" realm. That is, that is how I read his statement. This topic is dedicated to unravel what he might be seeing in such claim. There may be several ways to approach the matter. Have fun discussing. And we invite DaveS to chime in again with focus on "lifting gas."

=============================

My first exploration:

Suppose a frame was assumed for analysis that had lift vector be vertically up from the surface of the Earth, and drag vector horizontal. Consider a neutrally-buoyant body of any shape caught in a vertical updraft; let there be no propulsion of that body. Observe the body going straight up without any flow over or around its body. Can we say validly in the assumed framework that the body is being experiencing lift? Can we note that there is no drag on that body?

====================

My second exploration:

Consider a manned balloon that is neither climbing nor descending; and the balloon is without lateral propulsion; the air is calm relative to the balloon, though ambient wind relative to ground is positive. The pilot and passengers feel no apparent wind on their faces. Calm for them. And the whole system is not experiencing any drag as there is zero apparent wind for the system. Yet, is not lift occurring via use of "lifting gas"? With less lift resultant, the balloon would descend. Add more lifting gas and there would be some climbing.

Further, suppose the balloon is ascending vertically in calm air. Is not there lift; and note that the horizontal pressure is zero?

==================

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26494	From: joe_f_90032	Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Points of Sailing

From the power curves of Cyclo-kite, I'd place sudden climb in power in Quadrant 1, approximate at 5 or so degrees into Quadrant 1 assuming the wing is flying windward in Quadrant 1. So, I may differ from DaveS as to the position of the "ballistic" event. . The cause or causes of he sudden climb is interesting; if multiple causes, then what are they? Does DS play a part in the sudden rise in power?

When differences in perspective may be occurring, thee may be need to clarify matters. To block the clarification process abruptly may be disturbing. Not recognizing flows of unrecognized distinct perspectives is muddy, I'd say; to work things out would be a clarification process away from that muddiness. The effort to get "on the same page" or same frame may be a challenging process with a hope of good rewards. Bowing to one dominant perspective risks remaining in mud unless that dominant perspective is error free.

A tiny insight might open up an effective new branch of understanding. A tiny break in a dam might grow to bring on a huge breakthrough. The effort to find radium was a long haul. Wrestling may be positively respected as exercise and a means to clarify strengths and weaknesses.

Sorting out differences of understanding may be seen as a positively helpful garden of grace. Strengthen one another. Not just tolerate or discard, but aim to really know the other's perspective; and then maybe persuade or adjust or form some tertiary enriched new common perspective on which to build next matters. What may seem irrelevant on a matter might end up being relevant or might end up being relevant to some other matter in the AWE realm.

We each need not face every question or matter.

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Hi JoeF,

Easy does it, perhaps? DaveS described the top section of the orbit of the Cyclo-Kite as “ballistic”. So you are saying that he did not mean “a parabolic curve” but rather a “sudden explosive releasing”. That too seems entirely wrong and totally irrelevant to the Cyclo-Kite orbit. But if you insist that it is relevant, OK, please explain why.

I see no point in constantly introducing meaningless quibbles over all of the possible uses of words and all of their possible alternative terms? All it does is muddy the waters and waste every one’s time having to wade through meaningless discussions of irrelevant trivia. A little more moderation would seem to be in order. Would you agree?

PeterS

From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 2:20 PM
To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AWES] Points of Sailing

Probably simply using one of the alternate connotations of "ballistic" ... not existential equivalence to "electron" ...

We have ballistic parachutes on some hang gliders. BRS chutes. The emphasis is not on parabolic path projectile, but rather just on the sudden explosive releasing.

Easy does it, pehaps.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26495	From: joe_f_90032	Date: 6/25/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Peter S,

Of course respond with evidence for cases; that is super! Thanks.

But, there may not be a need to fast deem things from others as "nonsense" "irrelevant" "meaningless" in a de facto air without adding "For me, what you write is ____". The other person is in the game with some kind of perspective that may not be yet full-enough known by you to pronounce as absolutely "nonsense", etc. Your personal hold cannot be disputed; but when distinct perspective are operating, the matter might not be nonsense, etc. within the other's perspective. I guess, the call for "patience" comes from wanting participants to give full air to what might be distinct frameworks or perspectives. Use of a guarded, "For me, ....such or so" might help.

My son ran a session for others about perspectives. He held up a large ball. What color is the ball? Some said red, some said blue. They he revealed the the ball was red, white, and blue. From seating positions, some saw only red. Some saw only blue. Only he could see the white as he held the ball out in front of himself. Without patience, the group might not have ever found the ball to be red, white, and blue.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26496	From: benhaiemp	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Hi Doug (https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AirborneWindEnergy/conversations/messages/26461),

Can you try to know if Lecanu's claims are correct, if his active-lift VAWT is more efficient., if the lift force is collected in the axis yy' (Darrieus-unlike), if the tangential force is collected in the axis xx' (Darrieus-like), if using the two axis yy' and xx' as indicated leads to a better efficinecy as claimed, and that by putting aside some other considerations like the expected low viability besides HAWT, or an useless complexity.

What I would know is if this VAWT can work as claimed, if the physical principle is correct, if the mechanical means achieve the principle. Thanks.

PierreB

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26497	From: benhaiemp	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Correction: the expected low viability compared to HAWT.

Hi Doug (https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AirborneWindEnergy/conversations/messages/26461),

Can you try to know if Lecanu's claims are correct, if his active-lift VAWT is more efficient, if the lift force is collected in the axis yy' (Darrieus-unlike), if the tangential force is collected in the axis xx' (Darrieus-like), if using the two axis yy' and xx' as indicated leads to a better efficinecy as claimed, and that by putting aside some other considerations like the expected low viability compared to HAWT, or an useless complexity.

What I would know is if this VAWT can work as claimed, if the physical principle is correct, if the mechanical means achieve the principle. Thanks.

PierreB

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26498	From: dave santos	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

As best as I can reckon, the Active Lift Turbine introduces many new DOFs in the VAWT, and these allow new paths for the internal energy to flow, but this energy is not new extra energy. The energy is then returned to the system via the gears and linkages, and the overall output is down-converted to higher torque, but again, no new extra energy. There is also the added mechanical friction as a parasitic factor.

My prediction therefore, is that careful comparative testing will prove no real advantage for the increased complexity of mechanism. I fail to see any aerodynamic advantage by any known or novel principle.

Looping Arches and kite rigging do in fact offer many options to tap power similar to what ALT gearing does, but this does not constitute a new principle to copy. The CycloKite is the same class of device as what we have called a Tumblewing or Looping Arch. These remain interesting AWES WECS cases.

Hi Doug (https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AirborneWindEnergy/conversations/messages/26461),

What I would know is if this VAWT can work as claimed, if the physical principle is correct, if the mechanical means achieve the principle. Thanks.

PierreB

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26499	From: dave santos	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: lift without drag? lifting gas?

Excellent Joe. True in both cases. A neutrally buoyant balloon in rising air is a lift case. Even such a balloon in "static" mode is a lift case. Why? According to Einstein, Gravity is Acceleration, so its quite correct that an aerostat is experiencing lift as relativistic acceleration.

Doug and Peter feared we might be knowledgeable enough to resolve these lift conundrums, but we carried on and got the job done.

. In atmospheres holding objects, is there "lift without drag" within "lifting gas" realm?

=============================

My first exploration:

====================

My second exploration:

Further, suppose the balloon is ascending vertically in calm air. Is not there lift; and note that the horizontal pressure is zero?

==================

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26500	From: dougselsam	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: lift without drag? lifting gas?

You guys are too mystified by words and don't seem to be able to use words as they are, a tool, and instead seem to think words are reality, and the rules of the universe follow words. No, the rules are the rules, and we try to use words to describe these pre-existing rules. You both also seem to have trouble sticking with a single definition of a word in a discussion.

Let's go back to first grade (again), OK?

Remember where they taught us that a single word can have many separate meanings (and different words can have the same meaning)?

"Lift" for a LTA balloon is displacement lift, based on simple displacement flotation, and is in no way dependent on relative movement through the air.

This is pretty widely understood.

Lift of a floating balloon is not related to the special type of magical "lift" we talk about in aerodynamics.

Lift of a balloon is not part of any type of "dynamics", let alone aero-dynamics

Lift of a balloon is called BUOYANCY and is part of "statics".

Now just look at how silly this whole conversation is, and what a waste of time.

JoeF and daveS are once again trying to obscure any sort of sensible discussion by more and more injections of their problems with comprehending the subtleties of words and language, whereby they pick and choose ever-shifting choices of which definition of the same word to use in any given sentence in a vain effort to show how mush smarter they are than everyone else.

The discussion is not really about anything to do with how a wing works, how a balloon works, how a rocket works, etc. They are not arguing about anything in the world, they are arguing about words. Arguing about whether the mere word "lift" applies to a rocket going vertically in outer space. They are not arguing about what elevates the rocket. They are arguing about what they choose to "call it", as though that even matters.

All it is, is a convention - what people have previously agreed to call certain things. Nothing more than if you had a diagram with numbered objects, arguing about which number to use for which component in the diagram. Complete trivia, masquerading as a meaningful discussion, which it is not.

What it really is, is a fake discussion of nothing, completely meaningless blather, based on some contrived confusion over the simple fact that common words often have many various definitions, depending on the context in which they are used. These guys are either baffled or just see it as one more chance to feign "expert" status in AWE while not really demonstrating such expertise in any verifiable or concrete way.

I think they are very confused, which explains why the haven;t generated any power in 12 years of this. They literally cannot even use language effectively, let alone come up with any way to do AWE. And they want to substitute their own confusion over language for contributing technical expertise to the word of AWE. It's an attempt to, rather than master the art, drag everyone else down to their level of confusion over the mere terminology.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26501	From: dave santos	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Points of Sailing

Peter, no one has ever claimed the cyclokite "depends" on DS, only that DS is a factor in wind gradient. This will be repeated as often as you need, but lets consider moving on.

Ballistic mode in the broad sense of the term really does occur as the kite flies thru the top of the pattern, at least in normal orbiting faster than true wind velocity. Just allow that different engineering cultures can use the term "ballistic" by their own definition. If you want to argue the "ballistic" to you only means parabolic flight, at least we know that's your usage. Allow us our more standard usages.

Peace All

We each need not face every question or matter.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <sharpencil@sbcglobal.net

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26502	From: dougselsam	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Pierre: unless someone can show me why it matters, I don't care if it hypothetically could be more efficient.

I gave my initial take that it looked like adding a 2000-year-old perpetual-motion attempt to a darrieus windmill.

The answer would be to build one and run it.

Nobody will ever do that.

So you will never know the answer to the question.

People who understand wind energy will not build one.

People who don't understand wind energy will never build one.

Nobody will ever care enough.

If the principle can ever be applied to flying kites, where I would wonder how, and how the gear function would be implemented, go forth and implement that.

If I cannot see a diagram that even shows the wind direction, or how this thing is supposed to work, how could I analyze it?

And what good would it do? Does anyone care what I think?

They will just go on arguing about whatever comes up that confuses them, never building anything capable of generating any power.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <pierre-benhaiem@...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26503	From: dougselsam	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: lift without drag? lifting gas?

***Yes you "got the job done". You have proven, beyond all doubt, you are hopelessly and irretrievably lost in mere terminology, let alone any understanding or ability to offer an AWE solution. Maybe you should just stop faking it and give up the whole pretense.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...

. In atmospheres holding objects, is there "lift without drag" within "lifting gas" realm?

=============================

My first exploration:

====================

My second exploration:

Further, suppose the balloon is ascending vertically in calm air. Is not there lift; and note that the horizontal pressure is zero?

==================

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26504	From: dave santos	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Pierre, Joe and I care about hypothetical aerodynamic efficiency, if not Doug. We just don't see it in the ALT device. If you somehow do, explain it so that any bright aerospace student can grasp your insight.

Doug is right that we argue until confusion resolves, rather than remain confused. Someone will try to build the ALT, not us; too busy. Lets hope we see a final test result even if its as marginal as expected, rather than a real breakthrough the whole world hails.

At some point those who make AWE happen, and those who chase after other things, will part ways. Doug is wrong to think that the AWE community does not share its theoretic and practical talent. Payne may never himself have made AWE like Doug wishes, but Payne will share in the glory of those who finally do. Doug seems to think wind R&D is a one-man-show.

Pierre: unless someone can show me why it matters, I don't care if it hypothetically could be more efficient.

I gave my initial take that it looked like adding a 2000-year-old perpetual-motion attempt to a darrieus windmill.

The answer would be to build one and run it.

Nobody will ever do that.

So you will never know the answer to the question.

People who understand wind energy will not build one.

People who don't understand wind energy will never build one.

Nobody will ever care enough.

If the principle can ever be applied to flying kites, where I would wonder how, and how the gear function would be implemented, go forth and implement that.

If I cannot see a diagram that even shows the wind direction, or how this thing is supposed to work, how could I analyze it?

And what good would it do? Does anyone care what I think?

They will just go on arguing about whatever comes up that confuses them, never building anything capable of generating any power.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <pierre-benhaiem@...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26505	From: dougselsam	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Points of Sailing

See? They can't stop themselves. Stuck forever even trying to figure out word meanings, never able to do anything. Forever stuck in the all-talk zone, in the word definition zone.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...

We each need not face every question or matter.

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Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26506	From: dave santos	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: lift without drag? lifting gas?

No Doug, we don't give up on your advice. Try encouragement instead.

. In atmospheres holding objects, is there "lift without drag" within "lifting gas" realm?

=============================

My first exploration:

====================

My second exploration:

Further, suppose the balloon is ascending vertically in calm air. Is not there lift; and note that the horizontal pressure is zero?

==================

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26507	From: dave santos	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Points of Sailing

Let Doug show what he doing in AWE beyond just participating in our discussions of interesting aerospace questions.

See? They can't stop themselves. Stuck forever even trying to figure out word meanings, never able to do anything. Forever stuck in the all-talk zone, in the word definition zone.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...

We each need not face every question or matter.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <sharpencil@...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26508	From: Pierre BENHAIEM	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Attachments :

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26509	From: Pierre BENHAIEM	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Can you explain why

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26510	From: dave santos	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT [1 Attachment]

Pierre, The ALT can help us better understand aerodynamics, but not because the inventors are great teachers or masters of aerodynamics and mechanical engineering. The lesson here is how poor their claims and supporting science are. You seem excited. Try and build an AWT if you have doubts or confidence how amazing it works. This has been more of a spam-troll affair than the best aerospace education available.

There are great classics of aerodynamic science. Compare this very marginal lesson with the best possible educational materials. Try them too.

[Attachment(s) from Pierre BENHAIEM included below]

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26511	From: Pierre BENHAIEM	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26512	From: dave santos	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Well Peter, when aerospace folks learn of a breakthrough in aerodynamics, it always has a strong third-party validation and fits into the body of known art like a jewel.

This is sort of the opposite situation, of inventor self-claiming without a fit to known theory, except as a probable violation of conservation-of-energy (no free lunch).

Thanks for asking how this sort of thing may not present anything in particular to a given person, except maybe as one more Gipe fantasy turbine. Those are common.

Lets move on. Let the fate of the ALT be proven in the wider world. A bias toward VAWTs in AWE misses most of the action.

Discussing what lift is and how to update DS definition; those are the shared joys here, not pimping or pissing the ALT uselessly.

There are great classics of aerodynamic science. Compare this very marginal lesson with the best possible educational materials. Try them too.

On ‎Wednesday‎, ‎June‎ ‎26‎, ‎2019‎ ‎11‎:‎50‎:‎48‎ ‎AM‎ ‎CDT, Pierre BENHAIEM pierre-benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

[Attachment(s) from Pierre BENHAIEM included below]

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26513	From: dave santos	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Power Kite as AWE's One Basic Breakthrough

The one top breakthrough in AWE is the Power Kite, a COTS TRL9 device already operable at MW scale (ship traction). Nothing else comes close.

There are folks who claim some secondary improvement or novel AWE approach is a potential breakthrough, but they must reach COTS TRL9 to beat or enhance the Power Kite.

The Power Kite is amazingly efficient by power-to-weight, a "rag" equivalent in power-to-weight to the Space Shuttle Engine, but without fuel.

Power-to-weight endures as the first order metric in flight, and the best predictor of net available energy for harvesting. The Power Kite proves this daily in real life, around the world.

True, we have not perfected tapping the Power Kite. Its like the wheel was long ago first invented, but is still not done improving by many small increments.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26514	From: dave santos	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Physical terms are technical.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26515	From: joe_f_90032	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Sharp's FFAWE

Peter Allen Sharp and FFAWE

Already we have PeterS inducted into FFAWE club.

But here we might collect all of Peter's FFAWE notes and diagrams. Peter is invited to post for comprehensiveness and presentation correctness.

==========================================================

Start from Catalyst in 2008, though there may be earlier notes for his FFAW:

Sailing in the Jet Streams, to produce

Hydrogen, to power the World

Peter Allen Sharp

April, 2008

https://www.ayrs.org/catalyst/Catalyst_N30_Apr_2008.pdf

=================================================

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26516	From: joe_f_90032	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Remote energy from kite systems at the high jump arena

Fly an arch of tethered wings. Set the kite system just so. Run and jump over the arch of tethered wings. Rest. Find one's life energized by the experience.

This week's Monday at the university's athletic field where a landing cushion (high jump pit) sits, I tied to the two high jump vertical standards (posts) the ends of a arch kite system of many wings. As the wind arched the set of tethered wings, I used that kite system to energize my life. I ran toward the kite system and then took off and flew over the arch of wings. The experienced caused adrenaline to energize my body. And upon rest, my life was energized from the recreational experience;. .

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26517	From: Pierre BENHAIEM	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26518	From: dave santos	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Yes Peter, I read Heidegger on techne with my Mother's milk..

You can't folks "liars" and their ideas "nonsense" and then wish them to spend all their time answering you.

Bottom line, I see no technical advantage to the ALT, and can't provide what I can't see.

If there turns out to be an advantage, find someone you respect better to find it for you.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26519	From: Pierre BENHAIEM	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Active Lift Turbine VAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26520	From: dougselsam	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Power Kite as AWE's One Basic Breakthrough

daveS said: "True, we have not perfected tapping the Power Kite."

*** DougS replies: "perfected" - s though you are generaating crosswind kite electricity now, but just need to refine it a bit, right? In your fantasy-world, right? But in the last 12 years of bragging, saying how indispensible it is to red "crosswind kite power", you still have no idea how to do it, right?

I do not recall ever seeing a power kite generate any power. At all. Ever.

Am I forgetting something?

Where is the electric "crosswind kite power" from a power kite or traction kite, that we can see?

Why keep promoting something, referring to some "paper", when you can't tell us how to do it?

What good has reading the paper done for you?

Show us how to generate electricity using a power kite or traction kite.

Not just in words - show us.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26521	From: joe_f_90032	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: One kilogram AWES and the good effected?

One kilogram AWES and the good effected? Contest!

Festival or open-world contest?

Who will judge the value of the good effected? How will they reach their decision?

Limit the contest to one kilogram for the total AWES, not including the Earth as a possible anchor. Other specialized anchors other than the Earth would be included in the one kilogram system mass. Perhaps save some mass by not having a line reel in the system. Conventional AWE or FFAWE! One kilogram!

Build and fly an AWES where system mass does not exceed one kilogram. Effect good by the flying of the AWES. Carefully describe the good achieved. Publish a description of the AWES and the good effected by the flying of the AWES.

Tweaks to the contest description are welcome.

Prize and prize escrow?

Duration of the contest?

==============

Sample goods?

= Electricity to charge a cell phone that is used to call for rescue to save a human life. To save 100 lives? To save 1000 lives. To save a nation from enemy attack? To send a loved one an encouragement. To mend an emotional would?

= Shade to lower the loss of body fluids resulting in living rather than dying.

= Lift a thread over an abyss that is used to bring larger cable that leads to building a bridge that will expand the good that may be done between the peoples on either side of the abyss.

= ?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26522	From: dave santos	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Power Kite as AWE's One Basic Breakthrough

Doug,

Pierre used a power kite to make electricity, if you want a Forum review case to study. Enerkite powered a party at Tempelhof with a power kite. Many other videos shared. Guess you missed them all.

SkySails onshore AWES are your best bet next, with have a 200kw power kite in pre-production. You seem to not be following that either.

Just be patient, and you'll see. If there is anything else progressing, like your AWE ST moving to higher wind, and beyond 1kW, it must catch up to the COTS TRL9 power kite.

daveS said: "True, we have not perfected tapping the Power Kite."

I do not recall ever seeing a power kite generate any power. At all. Ever.

Am I forgetting something?

Where is the electric "crosswind kite power" from a power kite or traction kite, that we can see?

Why keep promoting something, referring to some "paper", when you can't tell us how to do it?

What good has reading the paper done for you?

Show us how to generate electricity using a power kite or traction kite.

Not just in words - show us.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26523	From: dougselsam	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Power Kite as AWE's One Basic Breakthrough

Yup you're right I'm unaware of electric generation by power kite.

Are you talking about kite-reeling?

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...

daveS said: "True, we have not perfected tapping the Power Kite."

I do not recall ever seeing a power kite generate any power. At all. Ever.

Am I forgetting something?

Where is the electric "crosswind kite power" from a power kite or traction kite, that we can see?

Why keep promoting something, referring to some "paper", when you can't tell us how to do it?

What good has reading the paper done for you?

Show us how to generate electricity using a power kite or traction kite.

Not just in words - show us.

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Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26524	From: dave santos	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Power Kite as AWE's One Basic Breakthrough

Yup you're right I'm unaware of electric generation by power kite.

Are you talking about kite-reeling?

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...

daveS said: "True, we have not perfected tapping the Power Kite."

I do not recall ever seeing a power kite generate any power. At all. Ever.

Am I forgetting something?

Where is the electric "crosswind kite power" from a power kite or traction kite, that we can see?

Why keep promoting something, referring to some "paper", when you can't tell us how to do it?

What good has reading the paper done for you?

Show us how to generate electricity using a power kite or traction kite.

Not just in words - show us.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26525	From: dougselsam	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: One kilogram AWES and the good effected?

I knew you would go to your knee-jerk response of "providing shade".

Or you hearken back to the time a kite flow across the Niagara river.

You guys are just nuts.

What about the "good" of sticking to the original stated goal of generating electricity?

Or, I guess you could stick to imagining emergencies like a guy stuck in the sunshine, with nothing around but a single kite. How can he block the sun? What a puzzle! What a brain-teaser! Great, Joe. Stay tuned for our next exciting episode! After 12 years, your contribution to AWE is reminding us that a kite can bring a thread across a gorge (200-year-old routine use of a kite) and that light can be blocked by kite fabric? That was all already known before we were born. Magnificent. Thanks, I guess you've made your mark. How about where the guy gets dehydrated from running around trying to stay in the shadow? oh wait - he's not actually going to FLY the kite, just crawl under it, tied to his house, right Joe? AAnd he can't just go in his house to escape the sun, he needs "a kite". And if it isn't actually a kite, but just a piece of trash from the side of the road, no problem, it will still work! Wow what a technological breakthrough!

BTW, is this "contest" kind of like the daveS "AWE-powered concert"? Like, there's nothing to it? Like it won't actually happen? Just more online blurting of your latest kite fantasies? I swear this forum is so nuts...

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <joefaust333@...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26526	From: dave santos	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Student Team AWE Flyoff

Great news; a bottom-up student AWE fly-off event will help mitigate the stark lack of venture team courage for Darwinian fly-off. If this Challenge takes hold as a popular engineering program, we could see rapid convergence on superior architectures, followed by relentless refinement.

Consider helping a student team in your area to compete. Congratulations to TimH and everyone else making this happen-

Airborne Wind Energy Challenge

Airborne Wind Energy Challenge Tim Hagemann, University of Stuttgart. 17 May 2019 What is this document about? ...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26527	From: benhaiemp	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Power Kite as AWE's One Basic Breakthrough

Indeed the FlygenKite has a turbine aloft. It flies by figure-eight.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26528	From: dave santos	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Doug's First Power Kite?

Recommending the $55 Prism Synapse 140 for Doug to try in his wind paradise, to kick his butt-

https://prismkites.com/dual-line-foil-kites-prism-kites/

Fly more, complain less.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26529	From: dave santos	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: One kilogram AWES and the good effected?

kPower proved in testing that kite shade (22m2 PLPL) is very effective in the brutal heat and sun on the Texas Coast.

Let Doug use whatever shade he prefers, but it won't be as cool. He treats topics like shade as troll-bait.

I knew you would go to your knee-jerk response of "providing shade".

Or you hearken back to the time a kite flow across the Niagara river.

You guys are just nuts.

What about the "good" of sticking to the original stated goal of generating electricity?

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <joefaust333@...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26530	From: Joe Faust	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Tale of Tails in AWE

Have line laundry tails or wing tails. Have the tails drive electric generators.

We have in forum many mentions of this matter. But we may scratch for freshness.

====================================================

Have a lifter system of kited wings.

From the lifted tether system have tails that drive either flown generators or ground generators. Design, build, test, analyze, simulate, compare, evaluate, ...

Tails may be downwind tensional constructs. Tails may be short or long, wide or narrow, encrusted with one or more in mix or match: HAWTs, skewed blades, helical segments, VAWTs, piezoelectrics, photovoltaics, pulsators, etc.

The net resultant of the simple or complex tails may be a drag on the line or wing. The task of the lifter system will be to keep the tails up into wind. Heavier lifting will allow more tailing drag to be countered.

Say a tail is 1 m in diameter and 10 m in length. Let the tail design be such that it spins and drives a ground generator via a torque cable at the tail end of the tail. Consider next a 1 m diameter and 20 m long tail that spins and drives a torque cable at the tail end of the tail. Etc. Options, challenges, wind-directions changes, etc. Tail core may be rigid as workable. Tail may Daisied, tensegritied, helicalized, multi-turbined, etc. Segment the tail as wished for best effects.

============================

Flygen options are many.

= Tail segments set in countering directions whilst driving an electric generator?

= Impellers of various designs driving lifted generators.

============================

=========================================

Do some tails as turbines operate beyond Betz' assumptions?

==========================================

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26531	From: dave santos	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: One kilogram AWES and the good effected?

Joe's kg Contest criteria happens to be relevant to the Student Challenge. Its most instructive if the mass-aloft is especially defined, and also a good safety limit (still a bit dangerous).

To help Doug relate kite shade to electricity, fly a kite over an airconditioned home in hot sun. Metered reduction in electrical load for equivalent cooling is an electrical AWE effect.

kPower proved in testing that kite shade (22m2 PLPL) is very effective in the brutal heat and sun on the Texas Coast.

Let Doug use whatever shade he prefers, but it won't be as cool. He treats topics like shade as troll-bait.

On ‎Wednesday‎, ‎June‎ ‎26‎, ‎2019‎ ‎02‎:‎18‎:‎51‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

I knew you would go to your knee-jerk response of "providing shade".

Or you hearken back to the time a kite flow across the Niagara river.

You guys are just nuts.

What about the "good" of sticking to the original stated goal of generating electricity?

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <joefaust333@...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26532	From: dougselsam	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Power Kite as AWE's One Basic Breakthrough

OK That was a nice review, but what I was asking about is a powerkite generating electricity, in useful amounts. We already know a moving kite can push a windmill through the air. That's old news. And we know a windmill can certainly hang from a kite and can certainly light an attached LED. I was wondering about a power kite generating electric power to be used on the ground, by somehow spinning a generator using its lines, for example?

I think you've done some nice demos Pierre. I did not realize the kite you used was considered a "power kite".

I'm really trying to get daveS to show us how to use a "power" kite to generate "power".

He's been brainstorming it for 12 years. Wondering if he has had any success.

Lighting LED's is a nice trick, but what about generating significant power, like where you could help to power a home, or completely power a home?

All the talk about crosswind kite power - where is a system flying a power kite back and forth cross the wind, spinning a generator?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26533	From: dougselsam	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: One kilogram AWES and the good effected?

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...

I knew you would go to your knee-jerk response of "providing shade".

Or you hearken back to the time a kite flow across the Niagara river.

You guys are just nuts.

What about the "good" of sticking to the original stated goal of generating electricity?

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Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26534	From: dave santos	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Power Kite as AWE's One Basic Breakthrough

Doug,

You don't even know what a power kite is if you thought Pierre used something else. Fly a power kite and learn what the fuss is about.

What "useful amounts" of AWEis to you is too limited. Your own ST fails glaringly by your own criteria. Once again, the power kite is the dominant AWES tool, and progressing relentlessly.

Seiko engineers would agree that KiteLab's demo was "useful amounts" of AWE for their system, if not you. Charging a cell phone with a toy kitesat gismo is "useful amounts" to phone users. A few hundred watts by Dan or Olivier's products is useful. 200kw SkySails power pre-production kite prototype is 200x what your ST does.

State what number is "useful amounts" to you, and we'll let you know when it happened.

I think you've done some nice demos Pierre. I did not realize the kite you used was considered a "power kite".

I'm really trying to get daveS to show us how to use a "power" kite to generate "power".

He's been brainstorming it for 12 years. Wondering if he has had any success.

Lighting LED's is a nice trick, but what about generating significant power, like where you could help to power a home, or completely power a home?

All the talk about crosswind kite power - where is a system flying a power kite back and forth cross the wind, spinning a generator?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26535	From: dave santos	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: One kilogram AWES and the good effected?

Doug asks: "Do you guys see anyone besides yourselves taking any of this stuff seriously?"

Answer: "Sure, Austin Energy gave kPower a nice grant in 2009, and we are still in that partnership. Bill Gates has blogged about AWE, he's a serious guy. About a thousand of us in AWE are serious. Ok, we grind coffee and cook waffles as fun demos, but that's hardly cause to think we are not serious.

Things are not as bad as you reason from willfully limited knowledge of AWE R&D. Try taking the power kite seriously; fly one."

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...

I knew you would go to your knee-jerk response of "providing shade".

Or you hearken back to the time a kite flow across the Niagara river.

You guys are just nuts.

What about the "good" of sticking to the original stated goal of generating electricity?

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <joefaust333@...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26536	From: Joe Faust	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: One kilogram AWES and the good effected?

So far, participants in the contest-generation phase have brought up many fertile points and questions. Great! Thanks.

One thought: perhaps a trial mini-contest could begin now and end in 30 days at end of July 31, 2019; anyone in the world is welcome to publish their AWES facts and description of good effects. The mini-contest could have three judges. The judges will read entries and decide by vote a winner. There will be sent a check for $10 from the owner of EnergyKiteSystems.net via PayPal funds to the winner. Ready, set, go: publish a system description, report the good to be effected by the flying of the AWES. The three judges will pick a winner from the published matter. OK, let it be. That mini contest is firm; the prize money is in the PayPal account ready to be sent to the winner of the trial mini-contest. Boasting historical rights may become huge; just think who the winner was of Kite Good #1 contest! Later Kite Good #2 may occur. Then Kite Good #3, etc. Prizes may grow and grow ...

Call the mini-trial contest: Kite Good #1. Thanks to EnergyKiteSystems for the first purse of $10 USD ! Three judges: ______, ______, and ______. Winner will be announced August 15, 2019. Publish one or more AWES; each AWES including tether is have total mass of 1 kg or less. Entries of this trial contest may have been built and flown in the past; that is, the effort need not have started presently. The judges will be instructed to weigh the good effects of entries as to "good" for Earth and its living occupants: animals, plants, humans. The AWES entry need not be built and flown actually. But the judges might be swayed by material and operational reality. The decision of the contest judges will be incontestably final as to prize giving; however, all entries may be discussed forever openly. Perhaps a non-winner will turn out to be capable of effecting more good than the winner of Kite Good #1.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26537	From: dave santos	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: One kilogram AWES and the good effected?

JoeF, to keeo the tiny Contest very simple, how about awarding the prize to the best student AWES projects as they come to our attention? It would be a nice surprise and honor for lucky winners, especially those in difficult circumstances.

We also need to carry on the Germy Award for Wayne, maybe even with retro honor for the skipped years. Your three-person jury would be suited to that, and I volunteer as one judge. Who else? Pierre? Ed? Peter? Doug?

Tomas Neemann comes to mind for prize, for isolated solo effort.

For the helpless complainers, this is about honoring good effort, not about bashing innocent folks based on unfair expectations. New aircraft always start marginal and get better.

Doug asks: "Do you guys see anyone besides yourselves taking any of this stuff seriously?"

Things are not as bad as you reason from willfully limited knowledge of AWE R&D. Try taking the power kite seriously; fly one."

On ‎Wednesday‎, ‎June‎ ‎26‎, ‎2019‎ ‎02‎:‎59‎:‎18‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...

I knew you would go to your knee-jerk response of "providing shade".

Or you hearken back to the time a kite flow across the Niagara river.

You guys are just nuts.

What about the "good" of sticking to the original stated goal of generating electricity?

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <joefaust333@...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26538	From: benhaiemp	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Power Kite as AWE's One Basic Breakthrough

Doug (https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AirborneWindEnergy/conversations/messages/26532),

"Lighting LED's " were used only to show the variations of power, using tiny propeller and generator.

These variations can sound more by using larger propeller and generator like on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rLbvSATEbg .

The kite I used is 1.5 m². A power kite with L/D ratio of 4 generates about 1 kW/m² with a wind speed of 10 m/s, using flygen method or during reel-out phase.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 26539	From: Peter Sharp	Date: 6/26/2019
Subject: Re: Points of Sailing

Attachments :

JoeF,

Yes, quadrant 1 for the Cyclo-Kite begins at the bottom of the orbit where the blade starts to climb.

No, DS has nothing to do with the Cyclo-Kite. DS works on the principle of blocking most of the wind from reaching the bottom half of a vertical orbit (or the equivalent for tilted orbits) of a DS glider In contrast, blocking the wind from the bottom half of the orbit of a Cyclo-Kite would make it stop orbiting because it relies on wind acting on the whole orbit, and especially on the bottom part.

New descriptions of a phenomena are always welcome as long as they are clear and complete with respect to the details of the physics involved. It’s also fine to take guesses about what’s going on as long as the guesses are presented as such, or as questions, and are not presented as “obvious” facts which require no evidence.

As an amateur inventor and theorist for more than 60 years, I am acutely aware of how important it is to pay attention to anything slightly out of the ordinary, whether it’s a concept or a physical phenomenon. I am equally aware how important it is to be skeptical about, and question, one’s own assumptions and other people’s assumptions. When someone suggests a new road of inquiry, what I want to see is them being duly skeptical about what they are saying. That is because it is easy to generate new ideas if one does not require one’s self to test and verify those ideas – either logically or physically – by presenting both supporting and contradicting evidence. A person who presents a new idea or a new perspective has the responsibility to do the analysis of it themselves, and not expect others to do it for them. But most people are inadequately skeptical (lazy) when it comes to their own ideas. That is often because they seek status rather than scientific truth. Such people may not be concerned about wasting other people’s time because they assume that their ideas are important contributions (because they believe that they themselves are important).

PeterS

From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 11:22 PM
To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AWES] Points of Sailing

We each need not face every question or matter.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <sharpencil@sbcglobal.net