Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                          AWES 25939 to 25988 Page 410 of 440.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25939 From: dave santos Date: 6/6/2019
Subject: Re: New Golden Age II- SE Asian Kite Phone Videos (incl. original "r

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25940 From: dave santos Date: 6/6/2019
Subject: Zephyr as KitePlane Similary Case

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25941 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Re: Zephyr as KitePlane Similary Case

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25942 From: dave santos Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Re: Zephyr as KitePlane Similary Case

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25943 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Re: New Golden Age II- SE Asian Kite Phone Videos (incl. original "r

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25944 From: dave santos Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Re: Zephyr as KitePlane Similary Case

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25945 From: dave santos Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Re: New Golden Age II- SE Asian Kite Phone Videos (incl. original "r

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25946 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Re: SkySails featured by The Economist

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25947 From: dougselsam Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Re: Santos' line-laundry - Where is the "100 Watts"?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25948 From: dougselsam Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Re: New Golden Age II- SE Asian Kite Phone Videos (incl. original "r

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25949 From: dougselsam Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Re: New Golden Age II- SE Asian Kite Phone Videos (incl. original "r

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25950 From: dave santos Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Re: SkySails featured by The Economist

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25951 From: dave santos Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Re: Santos' line-laundry - Where is the "100 Watts"?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25952 From: dave santos Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Re: New Golden Age II- SE Asian Kite Phone Videos (incl. original "r

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25953 From: dave santos Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Re: New Golden Age II- SE Asian Kite Phone Videos (incl. original "r

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25954 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Re: New Golden Age II- SE Asian Kite Phone Videos (incl. original "r

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25955 From: dave santos Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Re: New Golden Age II- SE Asian Kite Phone Videos (incl. original "r

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25956 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Re: New Golden Age II- SE Asian Kite Phone Videos (incl. original "r

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25957 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Re: New Golden Age II- SE Asian Kite Phone Videos (incl. original "r

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25958 From: dave santos Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Re: New Golden Age II- SE Asian Kite Phone Videos (incl. original "r

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25959 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Re: New Golden Age II- SE Asian Kite Phone Videos (incl. original "r

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25960 From: dave santos Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Re: New Golden Age II- SE Asian Kite Phone Videos (incl. original "r

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25961 From: dave santos Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Defining Solidity Factor as Kite Area to Kite Window Power Zone

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25962 From: dave santos Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Coal-shipper K-Line adopts Seawing; change of heart or cynical green

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25963 From: dave santos Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Kite Therapy, Physical Rehabilitation

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25964 From: dave santos Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Forbidden Tether- Chinese Contraband Gold Manja Epidemic

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25965 From: dave santos Date: 6/8/2019
Subject: Re: Forbidden Tether- Chinese Contraband Gold Manja Epidemic

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25966 From: dougselsam Date: 6/8/2019
Subject: Re: Santos' line-laundry - Where is the "100 Watts"?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25967 From: dougselsam Date: 6/8/2019
Subject: Re: New Golden Age II- SE Asian Kite Phone Videos (incl. original "r

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25968 From: dougselsam Date: 6/8/2019
Subject: Santos statement of having laddermills for sale

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25969 From: dave santos Date: 6/8/2019
Subject: Re: Santos statement of having laddermills for sale

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25970 From: dave santos Date: 6/8/2019
Subject: Re: New Golden Age II- SE Asian Kite Phone Videos (incl. original "r

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25971 From: dave santos Date: 6/8/2019
Subject: ETHZ's latest prototype

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25972 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/8/2019
Subject: Re: Santos statement of having laddermills for sale

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25973 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/8/2019
Subject: Re: Lifted Loop Ladder Set Vertically

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25974 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/8/2019
Subject: Re: ETHZ's latest prototype

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25975 From: dave santos Date: 6/8/2019
Subject: Re: Santos statement of having laddermills for sale

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25976 From: dave santos Date: 6/9/2019
Subject: Level-Winding and Fairlead Problems

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25977 From: dave santos Date: 6/9/2019
Subject: KiteMill slide-show shows good progress

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25978 From: dave santos Date: 6/9/2019
Subject: Upscaling HAWTs (Paper)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25979 From: dave santos Date: 6/9/2019
Subject: 6M WS Giant RC Glider as AWES WECS similarity case

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25980 From: dave santos Date: 6/9/2019
Subject: Longest X-plane program- X-26 Glider with lifetime crash statistics

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25981 From: dave santos Date: 6/9/2019
Subject: Why hot kiteplanes crash- insufficient handling of aero and inertia

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25982 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/9/2019
Subject: Re: KiteMill slide-show shows good progress

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25983 From: dave santos Date: 6/9/2019
Subject: Re: Why hot kiteplanes crash- insufficient handling of aero and iner

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25984 From: dougselsam Date: 6/10/2019
Subject: Re: Santos statement of having laddermills for sale

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25985 From: dougselsam Date: 6/10/2019
Subject: yahoo groups search lacking

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25986 From: dave santos Date: 6/10/2019
Subject: Re: yahoo groups search lacking

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25987 From: dave santos Date: 6/10/2019
Subject: Re: Santos statement of having laddermills for sale

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25988 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/10/2019
Subject: Re: yahoo groups search lacking



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25939 From: dave santos Date: 6/6/2019
Subject: Re: New Golden Age II- SE Asian Kite Phone Videos (incl. original "r
Here is the missing video that lifts dying burning balloons into Haute Arte photography, with Blue Danube soundtrack. The connection to AWE of this odd tradition is as a model for DIY aviation cultural heritage. Even if Fusion comes along and makes AWE redundant as a global energy solution, we can be assured that AWEfest variants will live on somewhere, as cultic tradition.

Ajijic Globos 2015






 

Buying a kite does not a kite-master make. Good luck just buying a kite and not mastering it, as your preferred strategy. 

None of these amazing heritage videos, which you credibly claim you will not watch, are store-bought kites. 







On ‎Thursday‎, ‎June‎ ‎6‎, ‎2019‎ ‎06‎:‎20‎:‎04‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


 

Cherry-picking further exotic SE Asian Kite Video Wonders, including Indonesian Lanyangans from ordinary to giant, with multi-hummers, and samples Vietnam's amazing kite heritage, from baroque wind-flutes to knotted stone-age rattan flying lines. Going deeper into Bali, where kites are a terrific window into the famous culture. Like the legendary Polynesians, advanced kite design are paralleled by a magical practice as effective-theory (NASA rocket scientists once wryly developed an aeronautical effective-theory of "Lift-Demons").. For desert; samples of Mexican mayhem in the sky at bottom.



A monster Layangan-
Layangan 12 m prajekan sokorejo


Kids flying expertly from crowded jungle, almost overpowered, cool warbling hummer-



Archaic contest of high art and aeronautical perfection-




The Old Master, from Stone-Age Rattan Line to Light Kites-
S Việt Nam: Tập 1484 Làng diều Song Vân




LAYANG LAYANG TRADISIONAL BALI - LAYANGAN JANGGAN GAGAL MENGUDARA KARENA ANGIN TIDAK MENDUKUNG


World's most technical kite video-



Also seeing Mexican and Brazilian Hot Air contests, crude, with lots of flaming wreckage falling on crowds, as part of the fun; or fine, almost flawless. Missing a choice video of mid-air disaster art shots-







On ‎Thursday‎, ‎June‎ ‎6‎, ‎2019‎ ‎01‎:‎40‎:‎00‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


 

Doug, that sentence applies to you. You risk failing in AWE without some sort of kite expertise.

On ‎Thursday‎, ‎June‎ ‎6‎, ‎2019‎ ‎11‎:‎40‎:‎31‎ ‎AM‎ ‎CDT, dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


 

I'll just stop reading after your first 8 words:
"The saddest outcome in AWE is to fail"
Congratulations.


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25940 From: dave santos Date: 6/6/2019
Subject: Zephyr as KitePlane Similary Case
Airbus' Zephyr is the largest but lightest most-advanced currently-possible rigid-airframe. 

Its almost suitable as-is as a kiteplane prototype, just add bridling, tether, and wire the rotor drives for motor and gen modes. There is little doubt how fragile and expensive this approach is. Its a technical marvel but weak giant. Still, it could fly in hot low-wind high-base-altitude conditions the M600's heavier construction could not touch. The skin is polymer membrane, including the solar surfaces. It can fly around the clock already, just on sun and batteries, so adding kite-mode would supercharge it.

There is a huge amount of documentation online about Zephyr, including, because it flies so high, detailed public airspace certification filings with redacted trade secrets. Airbus has fingers in AWE, in a pattern of radical renewable-energy flight research. Watch convergences emerge from these rich tech streams.

Graphene and superconducting electrical could make this sort of aircraft a robust MW device. Automated high-volume construction could bring prices low.

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25941 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Re: Zephyr as KitePlane Similary Case

Dave,


Do you favor flygen method, now?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25942 From: dave santos Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Re: Zephyr as KitePlane Similary Case
I especially favor Flygen for future living in the sky, and Groundgen converted legacy power plants.

Both good tools.



 

Dave,


Do you favor flygen method, now?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25943 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Re: New Golden Age II- SE Asian Kite Phone Videos (incl. original "r
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25944 From: dave santos Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Re: Zephyr as KitePlane Similary Case
To favor flygen now would be stupid. Look at the Zephyr as similarity-case evidence.

I favor the power kite and groundgen for large-scale power, but also like to design and fly flygens. This has long been my informed practice. 

How unreliable favor one AWE method one day, and another the next, after so many years of settled engineering basics, like aviation scaling laws.

KiteSat is the best TRL9 Flygen yet (sorry DanT).



 

Dave,


Do you favor flygen method, now?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25945 From: dave santos Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Re: New Golden Age II- SE Asian Kite Phone Videos (incl. original "r
Yes. There is a Vietnamese video where flyers take shelter from a rain shower under their kite, but it was otherwise not a top viewing pick. XC expeditionary paraglider pilots wrap up in their wings at night, like bats, to stay warm.

Better to live under, on, or in one's wing than stuck in a house with no wing. Better a kite for personal shade than anything else.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25946 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Re: SkySails featured by The Economist
Registration is free; one gets five articles free per month for reading. 
One need not buy into a full subscription. 
==================================
Other mentions besides SkySails: 
TwingTec, Ampyx Power, Makani,Airborne Wind Europe, 

Cautions mentioned: 
Complexity stress of operations
Control
Snapped-tether fly-down of tethers and wings
ATC
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25947 From: dougselsam Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Re: Santos' line-laundry - Where is the "100 Watts"?
daveS: Please stick to your topic.of claiming a video you linked to constitutes "proof" of 100 Watts generated.

JoeF: As moderator I would suggest you recognize that daveS has turned a conversation about his supposed "proof", which HE offered as "proof", of an "estimated" 100 Watts electrical output, into a personal attack on me, in response to my continued sticking with the facts of what he offered. 

Rather than provide a simple photo even showing there is generator at all, or just remaining silent, he attacks me, in response to my honest technical opinion on the configuration he is claiming constitutes "proof" of "100 Watts" generated.  There is nothing emotional in whether the configuration shown in his 10-second video constitutes "proof" of a given level of electrical power output.  It is a 100% technical topic.  Either his video shows "proof" of "100 Watts", or it doesn't.  It has nothing to do with me, at all, actually.

I would request that you explain to him that he is "off-topic" in a technical discussion, trying to divert attention from the technical topic he offered, into some weird personality war, because the topic is his offered "proof", not my projects, not my personality.  Please tell daveS that he should connect a visible electric load, such as car headlights, a power meter, Volt and Amp meters, etc. which show electric power being produced, if he wishes to provide such a video example of "proof" that would be generally recognized in the art of wind energy. 

Please explain to him that in the world of electricity, merely claiming a video "shows" a shorted-out generator is not considered "proof" of any particular amount of power "produced" especially since, by definition, no power can be extracted from a shorted-out generator, since if both wires are connected together, there is no potential difference between the wires.

Please explain to him that when he questioned the the previous fact of no specific proof shown of power output of Sky Serpent, "no generator", "no wires", "no batteries", all the lying "shitty accusations" he made on this forum,  I brought Sky Serpent out of mothballs in response, and ran it with instruments visible to demonstrate actual electrical output, proving him wrong and me right.  That is what a reasonable video "proof" of a given electrical output looks like.

Ask him if he would have accepted a mere statement from me, of a supposed "geared generator" that was not visible in a video, and "estimated" "output" saying the not-visible generator was "shorted", as  simultaneous excuse for zero output, combined with  "proof" of a given power output.  Ask him if that concept even makes sense: an excuse for no output, as proof of a given output.  You need "pretzel-logic" to even try to consider such a bizarre, logic-shattering question.

Please explain to him that he won't find that saying a generator is shorted out as "proof" of a given output in his latest future-accomplishment claim of having Paul Gipe conduct third-party-testing of whatever he purports to be "working on", which is not something Paul Gipe is even involved with.  (In fact, I highly doubt Paul is even running any turbines at all anymore.) 

Also, please inform daveS that if a generator is not visible in a video, then the video is not sufficient to "prove" that there even IS a "geared generator" in the apparatus shown, but that if he provided even a still-photo of his stated apparatus, it could help his credibility of claiming there even is a geared generator in the video, since it is too small to see, in the blurry, low-definition video he provided.. 

He's "off-topic", engaging in personal attacks, trying to cook up weird deals, wagers, payment walls, in a technical discussion he started, as one more diversionary stunt to distract from his ongoing failure to "prove" he has generated 100 Watts of electrical power, and generally making no sense and a nuisance of himself, giving your forum a bad name.  Thank you.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

OK so now I "do not accept proofs".
There's that old daveS greased water-balloon, finding a new place to bulge out when squeezed.
It bulged at location "do not accept proofs" - except you offer no proof of anything.
You could just show us a photo of the supposed setup.
That would be pretty simple.
It was supposed to be proof of power generated, remember?
I didn't see anything proven, just another one of your "blink-and-you-missed-it" videos.
A kite-show spinner, slowly spinning for a few rotations.  So what?  You could see the same thing at any kite show, not generating any electricity, so it obviously proves nothing at all.
Now it seems it was never even connected to anything, and you won't even show us the apparatus.
I do not understand why you even brought it up as proof of electric power generated.
Seems more like something you want to say looks like it could generate some power but it was not.
So you're faking it - that's what I see.
I would conclude you did not demonstrate your stated electric power generated.
Er um, I mean "estimated".
My estimation is, it wasn't even connected to anything, so estimated electric power generated = zero.


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@... #ygrps-yiv-89417063ygrps-yiv-850381317yiv6007259120ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-89417063 #ygrps-yiv-89417063ygrps-yiv-850381317 #ygrps-yiv-89417063ygrps-yiv-850381317yiv6007259120 #ygrps-yiv-89417063ygrps-yiv-850381317yiv6007259120ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-89417063 #ygrps-yiv-89417063ygrps-yiv-850381317 #ygrps-yiv-89417063ygrps-yiv-850381317yiv6007259120 #ygrps-yiv-89417063ygrps-yiv-850381317yiv6007259120ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-89417063ygrps-yiv-850381317yiv6007259120hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-89417063 #ygrps-yiv-89417063ygrps-yiv-850381317 #ygrps-yiv-89417063ygrps-yiv-850381317yiv6007259120 #ygrps-yiv-89417063ygrps-yiv-850381317yiv6007259120ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-89417063ygrps-yiv-850381317yiv6007259120ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-89417063 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Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25948 From: dougselsam Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Re: New Golden Age II- SE Asian Kite Phone Videos (incl. original "r
Clearly you have conquered the challenge of airborne wind energy by linking to a video of a kite flown in sunshine, therefore with a visible shadow, claiming it "provides shade", pointing out that shade results in less heating, verbally associating less heating with powered air-conditioning, then eventually claiming that even a tarp supported by a ground-level structure "is" a "kite" if it flaps in the wind, therefore "is" "airborne wind energy".  Just in time for your retirement!  Whew, what a world-changing career in wind power engineering!  Maybe you could just add some solar panels to a carport and call it a "strut-supported kite" as your next "airborne wind energy" accomplishment - ah maybe just stick with "retired" - quit while you're ahead.


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <joefaust333@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25949 From: dougselsam Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Re: New Golden Age II- SE Asian Kite Phone Videos (incl. original "r
I bought a kite, let it lift an airborne wind energy system, and showed the power produced, using standard instrumentation.  Like Roddy.  Like CB.  I did not need to "master" the kite, (other than adding a tail to stabilize it).  That was taken care of by the manufacturer.  Like Roddy and CB, all I needed to do was tie a rope to it.  Thanks for your input. 

I do not remember a "claim" that I would not watch videos linked by you.  re you SURE that ws an accurate statements rather than one more baseless accusation from you?   But it is true I have things to do today, so I probably would not watch them.  Not that I have not watched plenty of such kite-show videos linked by you, but they all start to look the same after a while.  I had hoped to find something interesting in them, but they seem pretty redundant and limited once you've seen a few of them.  Still, thanks for the links.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Buying a kite does not a kite-master make. Good luck just buying a kite and not mastering it, as your preferred strategy. 

None of these amazing heritage videos, which you credibly claim you will not watch, are store-bought kites. 









 

Cherry-picking further exotic SE Asian Kite Video Wonders, including Indonesian Lanyangans from ordinary to giant, with multi-hummers, and samples Vietnam's amazing kite heritage, from baroque wind-flutes to knotted stone-age rattan flying lines. Going deeper into Bali, where kites are a terrific window into the famous culture. Like the legendary Polynesians, advanced kite design are paralleled by a magical practice as effective-theory (NASA rocket scientists once wryly developed an aeronautical effective-theory of "Lift-Demons").. For desert; samples of Mexican mayhem in the sky at bottom.



A monster Layangan-
Layangan 12 m prajekan sokorejo


Kids flying expertly from crowded jungle, almost overpowered, cool warbling hummer-



Archaic contest of high art and aeronautical perfection-




The Old Master, from Stone-Age Rattan Line to Light Kites-
S Việt Nam: Tập 1484 Làng diều Song Vân




LAYANG LAYANG TRADISIONAL BALI - LAYANGAN JANGGAN GAGAL MENGUDARA KARENA ANGIN TIDAK MENDUKUNG


World's most technical kite video-



Also seeing Mexican and Brazilian Hot Air contests, crude, with lots of flaming wreckage falling on crowds, as part of the fun; or fine, almost flawless. Missing a choice video of mid-air disaster art shots-







On ‎Thursday‎, ‎June‎ ‎6‎, ‎2019‎ ‎01‎:‎40‎:‎00‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, dave santos santos137@... [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


 

Doug, that sentence applies to you. You risk failing in AWE without some sort of kite expertise.

On ‎Thursday‎, ‎June‎ ‎6‎, ‎2019‎ ‎11‎:‎40‎:‎31‎ ‎AM‎ ‎CDT, dougselsam@... [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


 

I'll just stop reading after your first 8 words:
"The saddest outcome in AWE is to fail"
Congratulations.


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25950 From: dave santos Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Re: SkySails featured by The Economist
Thanks JoeF, for looking over the article, part of an evident trend toward more incisive AWE reporting where the resource is confidently affirmed and the technical hurdles fairly respected. On the venture side, its the classic set-up, a list of favored players, but Dark Horse players may emerge to disrupt the venture gameboard. Open AWE is a Dark Horse with its own characteristic AWES culture and practices. As any specific Open AWE idea or method gains serious traction, The Economist will someday cover that.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25951 From: dave santos Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Re: Santos' line-laundry - Where is the "100 Watts"?
Doug, read carefully. Proof offered is sworn third-party affidavit and close-up photos. The video was never intended to prove anything to you.



 

daveS: Please stick to your topic.of claiming a video you linked to constitutes "proof" of 100 Watts generated.


JoeF: As moderator I would suggest you recognize that daveS has turned a conversation about his supposed "proof", which HE offered as "proof", of an "estimated" 100 Watts electrical output, into a personal attack on me, in response to my continued sticking with the facts of what he offered. 

Rather than provide a simple photo even showing there is generator at all, or just remaining silent, he attacks me, in response to my honest technical opinion on the configuration he is claiming constitutes "proof" of "100 Watts" generated.  There is nothing emotional in whether the configuration shown in his 10-second video constitutes "proof" of a given level of electrical power output.  It is a 100% technical topic.  Either his video shows "proof" of "100 Watts", or it doesn't.  It has nothing to do with me, at all, actually.

I would request that you explain to him that he is "off-topic" in a technical discussion, trying to divert attention from the technical topic he offered, into some weird personality war, because the topic is his offered "proof", not my projects, not my personality.  Please tell daveS that he should connect a visible electric load, such as car headlights, a power meter, Volt and Amp meters, etc. which show electric power being produced, if he wishes to provide such a video example of "proof" that would be generally recognized in the art of wind energy. 

Please explain to him that in the world of electricity, merely claiming a video "shows" a shorted-out generator is not considered "proof" of any particular amount of power "produced" especially since, by definition, no power can be extracted from a shorted-out generator, since if both wires are connected together, there is no potential difference between the wires.

Please explain to him that when he questioned the the previous fact of no specific proof shown of power output of Sky Serpent, "no generator", "no wires", "no batteries", all the lying "shitty accusations" he made on this forum,  I brought Sky Serpent out of mothballs in response, and ran it with instruments visible to demonstrate actual electrical output, proving him wrong and me right.  That is what a reasonable video "proof" of a given electrical output looks like.

Ask him if he would have accepted a mere statement from me, of a supposed "geared generator" that was not visible in a video, and "estimated" "output" saying the not-visible generator was "shorted", as  simultaneous excuse for zero output, combined with  "proof" of a given power output.  Ask him if that concept even makes sense: an excuse for no output, as proof of a given output.  You need "pretzel-logic" to even try to consider such a bizarre, logic-shattering question.

Please explain to him that he won't find that saying a generator is shorted out as "proof" of a given output in his latest future-accomplishment claim of having Paul Gipe conduct third-party-testing of whatever he purports to be "working on", which is not something Paul Gipe is even involved with.  (In fact, I highly doubt Paul is even running any turbines at all anymore.) 

Also, please inform daveS that if a generator is not visible in a video, then the video is not sufficient to "prove" that there even IS a "geared generator" in the apparatus shown, but that if he provided even a still-photo of his stated apparatus, it could help his credibility of claiming there even is a geared generator in the video, since it is too small to see, in the blurry, low-definition video he provided.. 

He's "off-topic", engaging in personal attacks, trying to cook up weird deals, wagers, payment walls, in a technical discussion he started, as one more diversionary stunt to distract from his ongoing failure to "prove" he has generated 100 Watts of electrical power, and generally making no sense and a nuisance of himself, giving your forum a bad name.  Thank you.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

OK so now I "do not accept proofs".
There's that old daveS greased water-balloon, finding a new place to bulge out when squeezed.
It bulged at location "do not accept proofs" - except you offer no proof of anything.
You could just show us a photo of the supposed setup.
That would be pretty simple.
It was supposed to be proof of power generated, remember?
I didn't see anything proven, just another one of your "blink-and-you-missed-it" videos.
A kite-show spinner, slowly spinning for a few rotations.  So what?  You could see the same thing at any kite show, not generating any electricity, so it obviously proves nothing at all.
Now it seems it was never even connected to anything, and you won't even show us the apparatus.
I do not understand why you even brought it up as proof of electric power generated.
Seems more like something you want to say looks like it could generate some power but it was not.
So you're faking it - that's what I see.
I would conclude you did not demonstrate your stated electric power generated.
Er um, I mean "estimated".
My estimation is, it wasn't even connected to anything, so estimated electric power generated = zero.


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25952 From: dave santos Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Re: New Golden Age II- SE Asian Kite Phone Videos (incl. original "r
Doug, You seemed not to read past the first sentence about sad lack of kite skill.

Had you only been skilled enough with kites, you would not have crashed your ST.



 

I bought a kite, let it lift an airborne wind energy system, and showed the power produced, using standard instrumentation.  Like Roddy.  Like CB.  I did not need to "master" the kite, (other than adding a tail to stabilize it).  That was taken care of by the manufacturer.  Like Roddy and CB, all I needed to do was tie a rope to it.  Thanks for your input. 

I do not remember a "claim" that I would not watch videos linked by you.  re you SURE that ws an accurate statements rather than one more baseless accusation from you?   But it is true I have things to do today, so I probably would not watch them.  Not that I have not watched plenty of such kite-show videos linked by you, but they all start to look the same after a while.  I had hoped to find something interesting in them, but they seem pretty redundant and limited once you've seen a few of them.  Still, thanks for the links.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Buying a kite does not a kite-master make. Good luck just buying a kite and not mastering it, as your preferred strategy. 

None of these amazing heritage videos, which you credibly claim you will not watch, are store-bought kites. 









 

Cherry-picking further exotic SE Asian Kite Video Wonders, including Indonesian Lanyangans from ordinary to giant, with multi-hummers, and samples Vietnam's amazing kite heritage, from baroque wind-flutes to knotted stone-age rattan flying lines. Going deeper into Bali, where kites are a terrific window into the famous culture. Like the legendary Polynesians, advanced kite design are paralleled by a magical practice as effective-theory (NASA rocket scientists once wryly developed an aeronautical effective-theory of "Lift-Demons").. For desert; samples of Mexican mayhem in the sky at bottom.



A monster Layangan-
Layangan 12 m prajekan sokorejo


Kids flying expertly from crowded jungle, almost overpowered, cool warbling hummer-



Archaic contest of high art and aeronautical perfection-




The Old Master, from Stone-Age Rattan Line to Light Kites-
S Việt Nam: Tập 1484 Làng diều Song Vân




LAYANG LAYANG TRADISIONAL BALI - LAYANGAN JANGGAN GAGAL MENGUDARA KARENA ANGIN TIDAK MENDUKUNG


World's most technical kite video-



Also seeing Mexican and Brazilian Hot Air contests, crude, with lots of flaming wreckage falling on crowds, as part of the fun; or fine, almost flawless. Missing a choice video of mid-air disaster art shots-







On ‎Thursday‎, ‎June‎ ‎6‎, ‎2019‎ ‎01‎:‎40‎:‎00‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, dave santos santos137@... [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


 

Doug, that sentence applies to you. You risk failing in AWE without some sort of kite expertise.

On ‎Thursday‎, ‎June‎ ‎6‎, ‎2019‎ ‎11‎:‎40‎:‎31‎ ‎AM‎ ‎CDT, dougselsam@... [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


 

I'll just stop reading after your first 8 words:
"The saddest outcome in AWE is to fail"
Congratulations.


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25953 From: dave santos Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Re: New Golden Age II- SE Asian Kite Phone Videos (incl. original "r
Doug, To sum up, you still overlook the generator, and are stuck with cranky denial. Same with shade. kPower's shade demo under a blazing Texas sun worked quite well, but it did take well-developed kite skills.

If you have never been able to use kites all kinds of ways like SE Asian Masters or Western Kite Pros, let Dylan remind you, "don't criticize what you don't understand".



 

Clearly you have conquered the challenge of airborne wind energy by linking to a video of a kite flown in sunshine, therefore with a visible shadow, claiming it "provides shade", pointing out that shade results in less heating, verbally associating less heating with powered air-conditioning, then eventually claiming that even a tarp supported by a ground-level structure "is" a "kite" if it flaps in the wind, therefore "is" "airborne wind energy".  Just in time for your retirement!  Whew, what a world-changing career in wind power engineering!  Maybe you could just add some solar panels to a carport and call it a "strut-supported kite" as your next "airborne wind energy" accomplishment - ah maybe just stick with "retired" - quit while you're ahead.



---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <joefaust333@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25954 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Re: New Golden Age II- SE Asian Kite Phone Videos (incl. original "r

Making shade with kites could be useful.

And then what to think about doing electricity with kites?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25955 From: dave santos Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Re: New Golden Age II- SE Asian Kite Phone Videos (incl. original "r
Pierre,

Start a new topic if you seriously think kites are only good for one thing, shade or power.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25956 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Re: New Golden Age II- SE Asian Kite Phone Videos (incl. original "r

Be quiet Dave, I think kites are good for everything.

 

 

 

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25957 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Re: New Golden Age II- SE Asian Kite Phone Videos (incl. original "r

Be quiet Dave, I think kites are good for everything.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25958 From: dave santos Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Re: New Golden Age II- SE Asian Kite Phone Videos (incl. original "r
You asked me for an answer, and I gave it. As posed, your question seemed to request a choice of shade or power, not a declaration that "kites are good for everything". I would have been quiet if you had been quiet. This is a SE Asian kite video topic for those who love such art.



 

Be quiet Dave, I think kites are good for everything.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25959 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Re: New Golden Age II- SE Asian Kite Phone Videos (incl. original "r
OK Dave, I think kites are good only for shade.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25960 From: dave santos Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Re: New Golden Age II- SE Asian Kite Phone Videos (incl. original "r
Pierre, these videos prove they are good for a lot more. Malraux would have loved them.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25961 From: dave santos Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Defining Solidity Factor as Kite Area to Kite Window Power Zone
Projected solidity factor of a wind turbine rotor in terms of its swept disc area is straight-forward. Less obvious is how to define the equivalent relation with a power kite, because there is no exact area to define. A typical power kite's swept area does not capture the large wind bypass inside a loose kite loop or inside and around a loose figure-eight.

The most logical reference area is the Kite Window Power Zone, but its not an exact shape like a HAWT's swept disc, but a fuzzy region, subject to real-world variances, like how increased wind gradient shifts the power zone upward. 

Thus Power Kite AWES Solidity Factor is a modestly fuzzy quantity- the ratio of kite area to power zone (ka/pz). There is also a curious time dependence to account when a kite overshoots its power zone by poor turning performance. When outside the power zone, the proposed solidity factor tends towards zero, and corrected average solidity is the best available estimate.

Kite-area to tether-length is a key variable as well, that greatly affects the solidity factor possible. In general, long-line proportions reduce solidity. It remains for a future post to somehow quantify the Power Zone in terms of cosine loss. It would be nice to find some natural functional definition rather than just declare the zone to have a subjective and arbitrary conic proportion.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25962 From: dave santos Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Coal-shipper K-Line adopts Seawing; change of heart or cynical green
K-Line must get out  of the coal-shipping trade if Seawing adoption is to be more than a moral travesty (see New Forum link for new K-Line coal shipping). Let them earn their "K" honestly. Building new coal ships while announcing zero emissions by 2050 should not fool anyone.

This is a sample Greek Shipping News Seawing item that does not mention K-line's coal trade-
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25963 From: dave santos Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Kite Therapy, Physical Rehabilitation
The World Kite Museum revived Kite Therapy in the '90s, from its recorded origins in Ancient China. All sorts of therapeutic benefits are possible, as has been covered here in many posts.

From the Asian kite video searching, here is a model Kite Physical Therapy case from Indonesia, following the notable pattern of self-treatment of many documented success-cases. This guy has done a fantastic job adapting what he has to kitemaking. While some kite promoters get rich, this poor guy needs a new roof; light can be seen shining through everywhere in his house; working on his roof is just too much for him; but he makes great kites and flies them masterfully. Interesting comparison with Ampyx AP3 construction, by a large elite team, itself with a SE Asian lead. There will be both kinds of AWE, from below, and from above. The best ideas and skills will mesh in the middle, but only "low-complexity" kite culture is so far shown to accomplish therapeutic function so miraculously. 

This is what a skilled kite god looks like-
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25964 From: dave santos Date: 6/7/2019
Subject: Forbidden Tether- Chinese Contraband Gold Manja Epidemic
Manja cutting line used to be a DIY or local-artisan product, now illegal many places across South Asia. Now there's Chinese mass-production of super-manja, with eager buyers spending whatever it costs to get some. Its under ten dollars a spool, so its not Kevlar or UHMWPE. The "mono" label suggests a Nylon monofilament, likely with cheap AluOxide abrasive somehow heat-fused into it. It comes with a warning label no one heeds- "NOT USE FOR KITE FLYING"; promptly peeled off; the spool lovingly handled, like a kilo of fine dope. This happens not just once, but in multiple videos, who knows how a many in all; its a freakin' epidemic. Here's two videos-


 

Comes in colors, same kick-
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25965 From: dave santos Date: 6/8/2019
Subject: Re: Forbidden Tether- Chinese Contraband Gold Manja Epidemic
The emergence of COTS cutting line not just an idle curiosity to AWE R&D folks, but an early heads-up of a major potential Kite Farm security risk. Where such risk develops, single-line conductive-tether high-capital-cost rigid-wing units face the greatest challenges, especially with future "super-manja" metallic variants that might be developed. Advanced kite and drone fighting, specifically to defend kite infrastructure, could emerge as a specialty kite technology.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25966 From: dougselsam Date: 6/8/2019
Subject: Re: Santos' line-laundry - Where is the "100 Watts"?
daveS:
My recollection is you specifically provided a link to that specific video, specifically as "proof" that you had generated electricity in AWE.   Which is why you "wrongly accused" me, in a previous posting of not accepting your "proof", saying:
"You accuse wrongly and do not accept proofs".

So make up your mind.  Like your concert that never happened, things you say make no sense from even one moment to the next, even just comparing what you said yesterday with what you say today.  Credibility approaching zero...

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

daveS: Please stick to your topic.of claiming a video you linked to constitutes "proof" of 100 Watts generated.


JoeF: As moderator I would suggest you recognize that daveS has turned a conversation about his supposed "proof", which HE offered as "proof", of an "estimated" 100 Watts electrical output, into a personal attack on me, in response to my continued sticking with the facts of what he offered. 

Rather than provide a simple photo even showing there is generator at all, or just remaining silent, he attacks me, in response to my honest technical opinion on the configuration he is claiming constitutes "proof" of "100 Watts" generated.  There is nothing emotional in whether the configuration shown in his 10-second video constitutes "proof" of a given level of electrical power output.  It is a 100% technical topic.  Either his video shows "proof" of "100 Watts", or it doesn't.  It has nothing to do with me, at all, actually.

I would request that you explain to him that he is "off-topic" in a technical discussion, trying to divert attention from the technical topic he offered, into some weird personality war, because the topic is his offered "proof", not my projects, not my personality.  Please tell daveS that he should connect a visible electric load, such as car headlights, a power meter, Volt and Amp meters, etc. which show electric power being produced, if he wishes to provide such a video example of "proof" that would be generally recognized in the art of wind energy. 

Please explain to him that in the world of electricity, merely claiming a video "shows" a shorted-out generator is not considered "proof" of any particular amount of power "produced" especially since, by definition, no power can be extracted from a shorted-out generator, since if both wires are connected together, there is no potential difference between the wires.

Please explain to him that when he questioned the the previous fact of no specific proof shown of power output of Sky Serpent, "no generator", "no wires", "no batteries", all the lying "shitty accusations" he made on this forum,  I brought Sky Serpent out of mothballs in response, and ran it with instruments visible to demonstrate actual electrical output, proving him wrong and me right.  That is what a reasonable video "proof" of a given electrical output looks like.

Ask him if he would have accepted a mere statement from me, of a supposed "geared generator" that was not visible in a video, and "estimated" "output" saying the not-visible generator was "shorted", as  simultaneous excuse for zero output, combined with  "proof" of a given power output.  Ask him if that concept even makes sense: an excuse for no output, as proof of a given output.  You need "pretzel-logic" to even try to consider such a bizarre, logic-shattering question.

Please explain to him that he won't find that saying a generator is shorted out as "proof" of a given output in his latest future-accomplishment claim of having Paul Gipe conduct third-party-testing of whatever he purports to be "working on", which is not something Paul Gipe is even involved with.  (In fact, I highly doubt Paul is even running any turbines at all anymore.) 

Also, please inform daveS that if a generator is not visible in a video, then the video is not sufficient to "prove" that there even IS a "geared generator" in the apparatus shown, but that if he provided even a still-photo of his stated apparatus, it could help his credibility of claiming there even is a geared generator in the video, since it is too small to see, in the blurry, low-definition video he provided.. 

He's "off-topic", engaging in personal attacks, trying to cook up weird deals, wagers, payment walls, in a technical discussion he started, as one more diversionary stunt to distract from his ongoing failure to "prove" he has generated 100 Watts of electrical power, and generally making no sense and a nuisance of himself, giving your forum a bad name.  Thank you.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

OK so now I "do not accept proofs".
There's that old daveS greased water-balloon, finding a new place to bulge out when squeezed.
It bulged at location "do not accept proofs" - except you offer no proof of anything.
You could just show us a photo of the supposed setup.
That would be pretty simple.
It was supposed to be proof of power generated, remember?
I didn't see anything proven, just another one of your "blink-and-you-missed-it" videos.
A kite-show spinner, slowly spinning for a few rotations.  So what?  You could see the same thing at any kite show, not generating any electricity, so it obviously proves nothing at all.
Now it seems it was never even connected to anything, and you won't even show us the apparatus.
I do not understand why you even brought it up as proof of electric power generated.
Seems more like something you want to say looks like it could generate some power but it was not.
So you're faking it - that's what I see.
I would conclude you did not demonstrate your stated electric power generated.
Er um, I mean "estimated".
My estimation is, it wasn't even connected to anything, so estimated electric power generated = zero.


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@... #ygrps-yiv-935945061ygrps-yiv-231464934yiv1186211645ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-935945061 #ygrps-yiv-935945061ygrps-yiv-231464934 #ygrps-yiv-935945061ygrps-yiv-231464934yiv1186211645 #ygrps-yiv-935945061ygrps-yiv-231464934yiv1186211645ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-935945061 #ygrps-yiv-935945061ygrps-yiv-231464934 #ygrps-yiv-935945061ygrps-yiv-231464934yiv1186211645 #ygrps-yiv-935945061ygrps-yiv-231464934yiv1186211645ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-935945061ygrps-yiv-231464934yiv1186211645hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-935945061 #ygrps-yiv-935945061ygrps-yiv-231464934 #ygrps-yiv-935945061ygrps-yiv-231464934yiv1186211645 #ygrps-yiv-935945061ygrps-yiv-231464934yiv1186211645ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-935945061ygrps-yiv-231464934yiv1186211645ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-935945061 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Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25967 From: dougselsam Date: 6/8/2019
Subject: Re: New Golden Age II- SE Asian Kite Phone Videos (incl. original "r
Luckily I learn quickly.  Having grown up building, flying, and even selling kites, I knew a tail might be required for stability.  I found out a tail was indeed required for the specific lifter I used to fly in a stable manner, when using the specific SuperTurbine(TM) as tether.  The key here is not that a kite crashed.  The key is that SuperTurbine(TM) is a wind energy system that conveniently serves as a tether.  AWE doesn't get more simple.  Not unusual to have a crash when flying something new.  If you never have a crash, you aren't trying.  The more important thing is I repaired it and flew it again, visibly registering electric power generated, in the form of voltage and current measurements.  I think if you want to see a person with a "sad" "lack of skill", look in the mirror.  You're the one who can't demonstrate any power generated in 12 years of supposedly trying.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Doug, You seemed not to read past the first sentence about sad lack of kite skill.
Had you only been skilled enough with kites, you would not have crashed your ST.



 

I bought a kite, let it lift an airborne wind energy system, and showed the power produced, using standard instrumentation.  Like Roddy.  Like CB.  I did not need to "master" the kite, (other than adding a tail to stabilize it).  That was taken care of by the manufacturer.  Like Roddy and CB, all I needed to do was tie a rope to it.  Thanks for your input. 

I do not remember a "claim" that I would not watch videos linked by you.  re you SURE that ws an accurate statements rather than one more baseless accusation from you?   But it is true I have things to do today, so I probably would not watch them.  Not that I have not watched plenty of such kite-show videos linked by you, but they all start to look the same after a while.  I had hoped to find something interesting in them, but they seem pretty redundant and limited once you've seen a few of them.  Still, thanks for the links.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Buying a kite does not a kite-master make. Good luck just buying a kite and not mastering it, as your preferred strategy. 

None of these amazing heritage videos, which you credibly claim you will not watch, are store-bought kites. 









 

Cherry-picking further exotic SE Asian Kite Video Wonders, including Indonesian Lanyangans from ordinary to giant, with multi-hummers, and samples Vietnam's amazing kite heritage, from baroque wind-flutes to knotted stone-age rattan flying lines. Going deeper into Bali, where kites are a terrific window into the famous culture. Like the legendary Polynesians, advanced kite design are paralleled by a magical practice as effective-theory (NASA rocket scientists once wryly developed an aeronautical effective-theory of "Lift-Demons").. For desert; samples of Mexican mayhem in the sky at bottom.



A monster Layangan-
Layangan 12 m prajekan sokorejo


Kids flying expertly from crowded jungle, almost overpowered, cool warbling hummer-



Archaic contest of high art and aeronautical perfection-




The Old Master, from Stone-Age Rattan Line to Light Kites-
S Việt Nam: Tập 1484 Làng diều Song Vân




LAYANG LAYANG TRADISIONAL BALI - LAYANGAN JANGGAN GAGAL MENGUDARA KARENA ANGIN TIDAK MENDUKUNG


World's most technical kite video-



Also seeing Mexican and Brazilian Hot Air contests, crude, with lots of flaming wreckage falling on crowds, as part of the fun; or fine, almost flawless. Missing a choice video of mid-air disaster art shots-







On ‎Thursday‎, ‎June‎ ‎6‎, ‎2019‎ ‎01‎:‎40‎:‎00‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, dave santos santos137@... [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


 

Doug, that sentence applies to you. You risk failing in AWE without some sort of kite expertise.

On ‎Thursday‎, ‎June‎ ‎6‎, ‎2019‎ ‎11‎:‎40‎:‎31‎ ‎AM‎ ‎CDT, dougselsam@... [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


 

I'll just stop reading after your first 8 words:
"The saddest outcome in AWE is to fail"
Congratulations.


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25968 From: dougselsam Date: 6/8/2019
Subject: Santos statement of having laddermills for sale

In view of my oft-cited dismay that of a thousand supposed AWE afficionados, with the name "laddermill" so often used, nobody has yet built or run a laddermill, Santos recently claimed to offer laddermills for sale on this forum.  Of course with the dysfunctional search feature of Yahoo, I cannot even find the quote, even though Santos made this claim within the last couple of days.

Can anyone find the quote?

Can anyone fill us in on "the rest of the story"?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25969 From: dave santos Date: 6/8/2019
Subject: Re: Santos statement of having laddermills for sale
Doug, You should have paid more attention in past years. Yes, I built and tested two small laddermills, shared photos, and reported findings. Who else in this world would bother? It was always rather a dead-end concept, but I test those too,and still learn something. The main trouble observed flying real laddermills is that the trains of kites tend to twist-loop in turbulence.

You can either buy the two prototypes for 500 each or pay me 100 per hour to dredge up the old posts, photos etc.

No one in AWE owes you favors. Don't demand free work to catch up your willful inattention, after you having made so many false abusive statements, not just about me, but about our whole community, for many years now. Losers don't even go away quietly, if your lack of progress counts.

You are too cowardly to bet real money against the generator affidavit and close-up photo, as the actual proof offered. Your accusations stand corrected anyway.



 

In view of my oft-cited dismay that of a thousand supposed AWE afficionados, with the name "laddermill" so often used, nobody has yet built or run a laddermill, Santos recently claimed to offer laddermills for sale on this forum.  Of course with the dysfunctional search feature of Yahoo, I cannot even find the quote, even though Santos made this claim within the last couple of days.

Can anyone find the quote?

Can anyone fill us in on "the rest of the story"?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25970 From: dave santos Date: 6/8/2019
Subject: Re: New Golden Age II- SE Asian Kite Phone Videos (incl. original "r
Doug, You haven't seemed to master kites. Any kid knows about tails. If you just learned that, or don't know much else about kites, that's not mastery.

Had you set two tag lines to each side, like a kite pro knows to do, the ST crash would have been prevented. You did prove its not a crashworthy design.



 

Luckily I learn quickly.  Having grown up building, flying, and even selling kites, I knew a tail might be required for stability.  I found out a tail was indeed required for the specific lifter I used to fly in a stable manner, when using the specific SuperTurbine(TM) as tether.  The key here is not that a kite crashed.  The key is that SuperTurbine(TM) is a wind energy system that conveniently serves as a tether.  AWE doesn't get more simple.  Not unusual to have a crash when flying something new.  If you never have a crash, you aren't trying.  The more important thing is I repaired it and flew it again, visibly registering electric power generated, in the form of voltage and current measurements.  I think if you want to see a person with a "sad" "lack of skill", look in the mirror.  You're the one who can't demonstrate any power generated in 12 years of supposedly trying.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Doug, You seemed not to read past the first sentence about sad lack of kite skill.
Had you only been skilled enough with kites, you would not have crashed your ST.



 

I bought a kite, let it lift an airborne wind energy system, and showed the power produced, using standard instrumentation.  Like Roddy.  Like CB.  I did not need to "master" the kite, (other than adding a tail to stabilize it).  That was taken care of by the manufacturer.  Like Roddy and CB, all I needed to do was tie a rope to it.  Thanks for your input. 

I do not remember a "claim" that I would not watch videos linked by you.  re you SURE that ws an accurate statements rather than one more baseless accusation from you?   But it is true I have things to do today, so I probably would not watch them.  Not that I have not watched plenty of such kite-show videos linked by you, but they all start to look the same after a while.  I had hoped to find something interesting in them, but they seem pretty redundant and limited once you've seen a few of them.  Still, thanks for the links.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Buying a kite does not a kite-master make. Good luck just buying a kite and not mastering it, as your preferred strategy. 

None of these amazing heritage videos, which you credibly claim you will not watch, are store-bought kites. 









 

Cherry-picking further exotic SE Asian Kite Video Wonders, including Indonesian Lanyangans from ordinary to giant, with multi-hummers, and samples Vietnam's amazing kite heritage, from baroque wind-flutes to knotted stone-age rattan flying lines. Going deeper into Bali, where kites are a terrific window into the famous culture. Like the legendary Polynesians, advanced kite design are paralleled by a magical practice as effective-theory (NASA rocket scientists once wryly developed an aeronautical effective-theory of "Lift-Demons").. For desert; samples of Mexican mayhem in the sky at bottom.



A monster Layangan-
Layangan 12 m prajekan sokorejo


Kids flying expertly from crowded jungle, almost overpowered, cool warbling hummer-



Archaic contest of high art and aeronautical perfection-




The Old Master, from Stone-Age Rattan Line to Light Kites-
S Việt Nam: Tập 1484 Làng diều Song Vân




LAYANG LAYANG TRADISIONAL BALI - LAYANGAN JANGGAN GAGAL MENGUDARA KARENA ANGIN TIDAK MENDUKUNG


World's most technical kite video-



Also seeing Mexican and Brazilian Hot Air contests, crude, with lots of flaming wreckage falling on crowds, as part of the fun; or fine, almost flawless. Missing a choice video of mid-air disaster art shots-







On ‎Thursday‎, ‎June‎ ‎6‎, ‎2019‎ ‎01‎:‎40‎:‎00‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, dave santos santos137@... [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


 

Doug, that sentence applies to you. You risk failing in AWE without some sort of kite expertise.

On ‎Thursday‎, ‎June‎ ‎6‎, ‎2019‎ ‎11‎:‎40‎:‎31‎ ‎AM‎ ‎CDT, dougselsam@... [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25971 From: dave santos Date: 6/8/2019
Subject: ETHZ's latest prototype
Very similar configuration to one of KiteMill's E-VTOL kiteplanes, with similar limits and trades-
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25972 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/8/2019
Subject: Re: Santos statement of having laddermills for sale
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25973 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/8/2019
Subject: Re: Lifted Loop Ladder Set Vertically
Errata: 
to drive up traverse to the wing and drive down traverse to the wind
SHOULD BE
to drive up traverse to the wind and drive down traverse to the wind

Thank you for your attention. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25974 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/8/2019
Subject: Re: ETHZ's latest prototype
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25975 From: dave santos Date: 6/8/2019
Subject: Re: Santos statement of having laddermills for sale
Doug has never been able to point to any specific quote to support his unhappy accusations. Its not just that successful search is by his accounts clearly a frustrating challenge for him, there really are no quotes to find that prove his extreme accusations are justified. At least we get a reason to review actual statements fairly, the digital archives can be counted on for that, and our searches succeed.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25976 From: dave santos Date: 6/9/2019
Subject: Level-Winding and Fairlead Problems
A common sight in AWES pictures and videos is damaged kite line poorly spooled. These problems are only acceptable in our early prototypes and must be solved. kPower proposes specific remedies. 

The fairlead must always be very well oriented to kiteline and spool or capstan. This is requires a well balanced sensitive precise fairlead block orientation. The worst designs show the kite line jumping off the pulley wheel lip, with abrasion and mangling damage to the line. A subtle requirement is that a fairlead pulley must always present line to the spool at the exact same point on the level-winding mechanism. This is a matter of careful geometry of the fairlead's inner feed to rotate around that point as its outer feed tracks the kite.

As noted before, spooling consistently under great tension is a problem. Fortunately, our low-stretch UHMWPE lines minimize if not eliminate the issue. As necessary, a two stage fairlead-capstan mechanism can off-load the kite line to a consistent tension for spooling. At low tension, line can be spooled crudely without line damage, perhaps obviating a level-winder.

Two companies who have above average reeling details are Enerkite, with its fine multi-reels, and KiteMill with its remote sideways cross-mounted fairlead (which needs just a bit better balance for most-sensitive tracking). The remote fairlead opens up tremendous anchor-field belay flexibility. Any novel art or inventive leap disclosed here is claimed under Open-AWE_IP-Pool (or IP-Cloud, equivalently)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25977 From: dave santos Date: 6/9/2019
Subject: KiteMill slide-show shows good progress
Lots of nice details, each picture "worth a thousand words"-
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25978 From: dave santos Date: 6/9/2019
Subject: Upscaling HAWTs (Paper)
HAWTs scale only a bit worse than pure square-cube scaling. Economy-of-scale benefits offset upscaling, to a point. AWE upscaling of rigid structure is more severely challenged by parasitic cost of maintaining a given mass in wind-powered flight. A HAWT bolted to a pole incurs no power loss due to high flight-mass, simply because it does not fly.

Copied link from New Forum covers HAWT upscaling. This sort paper shows the depth of upscaling analysis pending in AWE, which would be a nice PhD thesis.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25979 From: dave santos Date: 6/9/2019
Subject: 6M WS Giant RC Glider as AWES WECS similarity case
Its a great lesson to compare basic performance of 3m, 6m, 12m wingspan gliders as they commonly exist in order compare to scaling effects for insights into AWES scaling, including economic scaling and power-to-weight.

Here is a good 6m video, with nice aeroelastic dynamics.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25980 From: dave santos Date: 6/9/2019
Subject: Longest X-plane program- X-26 Glider with lifetime crash statistics
What sort of crash statistics might be expected of glider-based AWES, on-tether, autonomously? They need to do far more reliably and cheaper than this US Navy similarity case, to make money-

WP: "Four aircraft were originally ordered. Three of the original planes crashed. The USN purchased a replacement for each of the crashed units. "
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25981 From: dave santos Date: 6/9/2019
Subject: Why hot kiteplanes crash- insufficient handling of aero and inertia
As kPower has long warned, increase tethered kiteplane control surfaces, add vertical area forward; conventional glider design makes an unstable kite without these changes.

Note that power aircraft suffer from inertial roll promotion, while kiteplanes suffer from inertial yaw promotion, but the principles are the same.

A most dangerous state is for a kiteplane to lose airspeed at a bad attitude with residual roll in any axis. Only a nose-down orientation with enough altitude reliably recovers. Heaven help you if your kiteplane is low at the edge of the window in slow wind.

Scaling effects compound these risks.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25982 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/9/2019
Subject: Re: KiteMill slide-show shows good progress
Thomas Hårklau
Christer Svenkerud
Jo Grini
Tallak Tveide
Espen Olan
Lode Carnel
Sture Smidt

AWES system's wing name: Spark

"test facilities at Lista, Norway"

"kite parks"
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25983 From: dave santos Date: 6/9/2019
Subject: Re: Why hot kiteplanes crash- insufficient handling of aero and iner

Reviewing how aerodynamic coupling often expresses in kites, its a combination of airframe first-order harmonics and wake interaction. This can both cause crashing as control lags, and even reverses chaotically, or can promote nice passive Dutch Roll oscillations for power-kite pumping.

Again, these are vital aspects of aeronautics that current AWE academic literature does not adequately address. Designers should not wait for formal AWE academic confirmation of the domain-expert heuristics, but go ahead and take these issues seriously. Two pilots died in two sequentially manufactured X-26s exploring aero-intertia coupling effects. That's appalling.


 

As kPower has long warned, increase tethered kiteplane control surfaces, add vertical area forward; conventional glider design makes an unstable kite without these changes.

Note that power aircraft suffer from inertial roll promotion, while kiteplanes suffer from inertial yaw promotion, but the principles are the same.

A most dangerous state is for a kiteplane to lose airspeed at a bad attitude with residual roll in any axis. Only a nose-down orientation with enough altitude reliably recovers. Heaven help you if your kiteplane is low at the edge of the window in slow wind.

Scaling effects compound these risks.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25984 From: dougselsam Date: 6/10/2019
Subject: Re: Santos statement of having laddermills for sale
If I input laddermill into the search feature, the first return is from Dec. 13, 2018.


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25985 From: dougselsam Date: 6/10/2019
Subject: yahoo groups search lacking
Try the following experiment:
1) Pick a recent post, such as, say the post preceding this one
2) Cut-paste any word from the recent post into the "search conversations / search groups" search bar.
3) Check to see what year your first return is from.

 Example: Take the most recent posts from daveS, featuring the word "kiteplanes"
input "kiteplanes" (no quotes) into the search bar
First return is from last year.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25986 From: dave santos Date: 6/10/2019
Subject: Re: yahoo groups search lacking
Search is biased toward recent results. "Kiteplane" has been a term of art for years. Loosely, its an airplane-like kite on a tether also capable of non-tethered or slack-tethered flight by gliding or motoring.



 

Try the following experiment:
1) Pick a recent post, such as, say the post preceding this one
2) Cut-paste any word from the recent post into the "search conversations / search groups" search bar.
3) Check to see what year your first return is from.

 Example: Take the most recent posts from daveS, featuring the word "kiteplanes"
input "kiteplanes" (no quotes) into the search bar
First return is from last year.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25987 From: dave santos Date: 6/10/2019
Subject: Re: Santos statement of having laddermills for sale
LadderMill discussion on the Net goes back about twenty years.

Good Luck to Doug with his search results.



 

If I input laddermill into the search feature, the first return is from Dec. 13, 2018.


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25988 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/10/2019
Subject: Re: yahoo groups search lacking

Kiteplane

in our forum.

An early use was 2010 in forum.