Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                          AWES 25839 to 25888 Page 408 of 440.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25839 From: Santos Date: 6/3/2019
Subject: Re: Canada's Diesel-dependent Communities as AWES Early-adopters

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25840 From: Santos Date: 6/3/2019
Subject: Re: Curbing Coal Pollution as AWE's Top Opportunity?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25841 From: dougselsam Date: 6/3/2019
Subject: Re: Facebook patents paired kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25842 From: dougselsam Date: 6/3/2019
Subject: Re: Power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25843 From: dougselsam Date: 6/3/2019
Subject: Re: Power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25844 From: Santos Date: 6/3/2019
Subject: Re: Facebook patents paired kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25845 From: Santos Date: 6/3/2019
Subject: Re: Power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25846 From: dougselsam Date: 6/3/2019
Subject: Re: Curbing Coal Pollution as AWE's Top Opportunity?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25847 From: dougselsam Date: 6/3/2019
Subject: Re: Power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25848 From: Santos Date: 6/3/2019
Subject: Re: Power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25849 From: Santos Date: 6/3/2019
Subject: Re: Curbing Coal Pollution as AWE's Top Opportunity?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25850 From: Santos Date: 6/3/2019
Subject: Re: Power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25851 From: dougselsam Date: 6/3/2019
Subject: Re: Canada's Diesel-dependent Communities as AWES Early-adopters

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25852 From: Santos Date: 6/3/2019
Subject: Re: Canada's Diesel-dependent Communities as AWES Early-adopters

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25853 From: dougselsam Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Canada's Diesel-dependent Communities as AWES Early-adopters

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25854 From: dougselsam Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Curbing Coal Pollution as AWE's Top Opportunity?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25855 From: dougselsam Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25856 From: dougselsam Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25857 From: dave santos Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Canada's Diesel-dependent Communities as AWES Early-adopters

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25858 From: dave santos Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Curbing Coal Pollution as AWE's Top Opportunity?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25859 From: dave santos Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25860 From: dave santos Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25861 From: dougselsam Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Santos' line-laundry - Where is the "100 Watts"?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25862 From: dougselsam Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Curbing Coal Pollution as AWE's Top Opportunity?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25863 From: dougselsam Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25864 From: dave santos Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Inverse Scaling Laws for AWES- Small is Beautiful

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25865 From: dave santos Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Santos' line-laundry - Where is the "100 Watts"?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25866 From: dougselsam Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Inverse Scaling Laws for AWES- Small is Beautiful

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25867 From: dave santos Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Santos' line-laundry - Where is the "100 Watts"?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25868 From: dougselsam Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Santos' line-laundry - Where is the "100 Watts"?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25869 From: dougselsam Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Santos' line-laundry - Where is the "100 Watts"?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25870 From: dave santos Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Santos' line-laundry - Where is the "100 Watts"?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25871 From: dougselsam Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Santos' line-laundry - Where is the "100 Watts"?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25872 From: dave santos Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Santos' line-laundry - Where is the "100 Watts"?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25873 From: dave santos Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Convergence of Daisy, Rotating Reels, and Carousel Concepts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25874 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Convergence of Daisy, Rotating Reels, and Carousel Concepts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25875 From: dave santos Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25876 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Convergence of Daisy, Rotating Reels, and Carousel Concepts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25877 From: dougselsam Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Paul Gipe testing of a Selsam SuperTurbine(TM)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25878 From: dougselsam Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Convergence of Daisy, Rotating Reels, and Carousel Concepts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25879 From: dougselsam Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Santos' line-laundry - Where is the "100 Watts"?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25880 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Convergence of Daisy, Rotating Reels, and Carousel Concepts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25881 From: dougselsam Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25882 From: dave santos Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Why the Wind tries to Kill Us, How to Tame It.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25883 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Convergence of Daisy, Rotating Reels, and Carousel Concepts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25884 From: dave santos Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Convergence of Daisy, Rotating Reels, and Carousel Concepts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25885 From: dave santos Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Paul Gipe testing of a Selsam SuperTurbine(TM)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25886 From: dave santos Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Santos' line-laundry - Where is the "100 Watts"?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25887 From: dave santos Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Convergence of Daisy, Rotating Reels, and Carousel Concepts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25888 From: dave santos Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Convergence of Daisy, Rotating Reels, and Carousel Concepts



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25839 From: Santos Date: 6/3/2019
Subject: Re: Canada's Diesel-dependent Communities as AWES Early-adopters
Doug, let's agree that if these ideas are in process, you are badly mistaken. Let's hope for the sake of the remote diesel users that you are. If you have any answers, bring them forward.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25840 From: Santos Date: 6/3/2019
Subject: Re: Curbing Coal Pollution as AWE's Top Opportunity?
Over-running Clutch
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25841 From: dougselsam Date: 6/3/2019
Subject: Re: Facebook patents paired kites
This is obviously a wannabe broadband tower- or satellite- substitute play.
Whenever you see a drawing of a wind energy system with solar panels on the working surfaces, you can bet you're looking at one more "me-too" idea that will never get off the ground.  Such a typical newbie feature.  And kite-reeling, now with the heavy reel and generator in the air.  Sure.
Next steps:  eliminate the kites, replace with a tower, move solar panels to a separate ground-mounted rack, connect everything using copper wires, and voila!  A standard wifi system.  The "geniuses" who try to solve AWE transition to creating an idea using known systems to yield wifi connectivity.  Next step after that is "just give up".  I think one major problem with these social media and internet companies is they think they are smarter than they really are.  In my opinion they should try to do a better job at what they supposedly do, and forget trying to engineer stuff they don't know anything about.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25842 From: dougselsam Date: 6/3/2019
Subject: Re: Power
In a typical engineering education, they will mention a number, 745.7.
That's the number of Watts equal to one Horsepower.
It's just a number.  Any engineer should know it without having to think twice about it.
If you don't know it by heart, you probably don't belong in an engineering discussion.
If, after 12 years, this is still something that needs to be mentioned, well, I'm not sure what someone's problem might be, but obviously you're probably NOT someone who is not making much progress in engineering.
I have another one for you:  A pint weighs a pound.  16 ounces.  We learned it as "A pint's a pound, the world around".  Another useful thing to know.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25843 From: dougselsam Date: 6/3/2019
Subject: Re: Power
More excuses for never generating any electricity.


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@... On ‎Saturday‎, ‎May‎ ‎25‎, ‎2019‎ ‎08‎:‎56‎:‎58‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, joefaust333@... [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25844 From: Santos Date: 6/3/2019
Subject: Re: Facebook patents paired kites
Longtime knowledable admirers of these dual-kite concepts can hope Facebook funds the best kite research possible.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25845 From: Santos Date: 6/3/2019
Subject: Re: Power
Doug is confused whether engineers must know horsepower to a tenth of a Watt. Even the rounded number, 750W, is not critical, since many of history's greatest engineers never had these numbers.

What counts most is that an engineer solves real problems in safe practical form. AWE is being solved by great folks, whatever numeric tests imposed.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25846 From: dougselsam Date: 6/3/2019
Subject: Re: Curbing Coal Pollution as AWE's Top Opportunity?
Show us how it works at any scale.


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25847 From: dougselsam Date: 6/3/2019
Subject: Re: Power
You and Joe are the ones who brought up horsepower this time.
No it doesn't matter if you know it to the tenth of a Watt or even to 10 Watts.
It hardly matters if you know the conversion at all, it's just that engineers usually DO know the number and do not need some website to sort it out for them as though it is something difficult to calculate or requiring inside, privileged knowledge.  What's next, a "special" website (for very "special" people?)  that converts hours to minutes, for people who don't know the number is 60?  This topic is more evidence that AWE is the blind leading the blind.


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25848 From: Santos Date: 6/3/2019
Subject: Re: Power
Doug has conceded AWE experiments work at small-scale. Safety is the top concern as AWE scales up, not an excuse for anything.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25849 From: Santos Date: 6/3/2019
Subject: Re: Curbing Coal Pollution as AWE's Top Opportunity?
John Borsheim's excellent 2009 groundgen uses an over-running clutch. First driven by flipwings, it's still kPower's go-to platform at 25W level.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25850 From: Santos Date: 6/3/2019
Subject: Re: Power
Just remember a small mining pony working steady is how horsepower was derived. Yes, 1hp can kill, easily.

It's not Joe's fault you think a rote decimal more apt commentary, in the context of kite power.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25851 From: dougselsam Date: 6/3/2019
Subject: Re: Canada's Diesel-dependent Communities as AWES Early-adopters

daveS "let's agree" that they are not, as usual, and, as usual, YOU are the one who is "badly mistaken".  You just make things up.  Just like you were badly mistaken about Altaeros in Alaska.  You made it up.  Also in another post you mentioned I "was confused" to think engineers typically already know how many Watts equal a horsepower.  Let me tell you if that was as difficult as engineering school got, anyone could be an engineer.  It's nothing but a conversion factor, about as low on the totem pole of engineering knowledge as you can get.  high-school-level stuff.  Not worthy of mention in a technical forum.  A big deal only if you are a know-nothing idiot.  I hereby protest your added and continued mischaracterizations of my mental state as "personal attacks".  You like to try to make things personal - forget mentioning my name, I just represent facts.  So, instead of complaining about "Doug", just say you don't like facts.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25852 From: Santos Date: 6/3/2019
Subject: Re: Canada's Diesel-dependent Communities as AWES Early-adopters
Doug, As properly cited, it was you who first praised Altaeros while l was critiquing. The written record stands of who really meant what. As an LTA tech veteran, no one has ever been harder on Altaeros than me. I want bad concepts to fail in public testing, Alaska or Hawaii matters not. 

Try reading more carefully. Copy quotes fairly in making habitual accusations. Advance your own way to do AWE in remote communities, if you know better how to help. It's happening even as you claim otherwise. 

Join the party. Fly a kite.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25853 From: dougselsam Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Canada's Diesel-dependent Communities as AWES Early-adopters
Arguments with you are stupid.  This discussion is a joke.  Discussing a previous conversation that was a joke.  A joke squared.  I may have expressed some early approval that they were at least, (supposedly) trying something. Their idea was an old one of mine, if you really want to know.  Another teenage design from the 1970's.  Got the idea at least partly from watching star trek - a hollow asteroid.  But like you I also saw their chosen donut design reduced volume (buoyancy) while using more material (weight).  So it looked like a bad version of a concept that was nonetheless worth exploring.  It was always possible they could improve the design, right?  Their being stuck in a wrong direction illustrates how patents and bean-counters combine to drive a project off a cliff.
Once Altaeros was supposed to have gotten going, I noticed they were dead in the water.  They were stuck with a half-assed prototype, with a poor design, that was visibly frail.  I saw the weak design, weak execution, and declared it was not going to happen in Alaska.  That flying trash-bag was not going to survive a remote Alaskan winter.  And it was not capable of making much power anyway.
I took the time to look up the articles, found the local newspaper in Alaska that had run an article on the supposed project, called them, and nobody there had any idea what I was talking about.  Nobody knew anything about any Altaeros project up there, and that was the newspaper that had carried the original story.  So I got back to this "forum-of-fantasy" with what I interpreted as actual information.  The information was, that there was no information.  Meanwhile YOUR response to the facts I had bothered to find was to simply deny them.  "It's a delay!" you insisted in post after post.  How many times do we have to have a repeated discussion of something so simple?  An "engineering delay!", you embellished your wrong proclamation.  Based on nothing.  And now you want to still argue about it years later?  What the hell is WRONG with you???  Conversations with you are INANE!  In my opinion, I've never encountered any situation as nonsensical as trying to discuss anything with you.  Seems just not worth even trying.
What people like you do not understand is most grant-funded R&D projects never even take place at all.  The promoters typically "just give up".  I found that out when, first I noticed the immense amount of paperwork where they almost force you to make overly-optimistic statements like how any trillions of dollars you will save ratepayers, then the immense amount of interest from The California Energy Commission when my project was completed - keyword: "completed".  I found out that completing a project was unusual.  That's why it's so hard to get a grant - almost every grantee lets the grantors down, producing nothing.  So they are skeptical.  Think of your AWE-powered concert, announced, but you had nothing to run it.  Well there are apparently lots of people out there with that same level of reality-avoidance.  Why don't you stop arguing about how wrong you were before, and try generating some electricity after 12 years?   Here's another stupid project that win millions from ARPA-E - cancelled.  https://arpa-e.energy.gov/?q=slick-sheet-project/new-option-wind-energy&page=1
Do you really have to question why I observe: "idiots, idiots, idiots"?  From top-to-bottom, all idiots.  And you, my friend, are, to my way of thinking anyway, the poster-child of the whole kit-and-kaboodle of nothingness.



---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25854 From: dougselsam Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Curbing Coal Pollution as AWE's Top Opportunity?
Show us a video of your supposed 25 Watts on a meter.
Show us how to use your clutch to drive a 400 MW generator at a steady 1800 RPM plus slip to power a grid, using one or more "power-kites".
Show us anything verifying any of the nonsense you keep spewing year after year.
Show us any power-kite steadily spinning any generator, of any type, and size, anywhere, at any time.
Or  flipwing, or a thousand flipwings, or a bose-einstein condensate using phonons - whatever you want, show us.
Show us anything you've ever talked about actually working.



---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25855 From: dougselsam Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Power


Anything and Everything are your two excuses.  What about ignorance?

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25856 From: dougselsam Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Power
Wind power is measured in Watts generated.  Your protestations are obvious attempts to divert attention from your failure to generate, after 12 years.  Mentioning the standard horsepower conversion is meaningless.


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25857 From: dave santos Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Canada's Diesel-dependent Communities as AWES Early-adopters
The good news is Canada will be assessing AWE as a potential solution for diesel dependence of its rural communities. There are established Canadian AWE R&D players and their international partners already lining up. We hope for these communities to be hands-on beta developers not PR stage-sets. Its understandable if others somehow confuse these options.

It is stupid to argue off-topic habitually. Best to form proper topics for technical argument.



 

Arguments with you are stupid.  This discussion is a joke.  Discussing a previous conversation that was a joke.  A joke squared.  I may have expressed some early approval that they were at least, (supposedly) trying something. Their idea was an old one of mine, if you really want to know.  Another teenage design from the 1970's.  Got the idea at least partly from watching star trek - a hollow asteroid.  But like you I also saw their chosen donut design reduced volume (buoyancy) while using more material (weight).  So it looked like a bad version of a concept that was nonetheless worth exploring.  It was always possible they could improve the design, right?  Their being stuck in a wrong direction illustrates how patents and bean-counters combine to drive a project off a cliff.
Once Altaeros was supposed to have gotten going, I noticed they were dead in the water.  They were stuck with a half-assed prototype, with a poor design, that was visibly frail.  I saw the weak design, weak execution, and declared it was not going to happen in Alaska.  That flying trash-bag was not going to survive a remote Alaskan winter.  And it was not capable of making much power anyway.
I took the time to look up the articles, found the local newspaper in Alaska that had run an article on the supposed project, called them, and nobody there had any idea what I was talking about.  Nobody knew anything about any Altaeros project up there, and that was the newspaper that had carried the original story.  So I got back to this "forum-of-fantasy" with what I interpreted as actual information.  The information was, that there was no information.  Meanwhile YOUR response to the facts I had bothered to find was to simply deny them.  "It's a delay!" you insisted in post after post.  How many times do we have to have a repeated discussion of something so simple?  An "engineering delay!", you embellished your wrong proclamation.  Based on nothing.  And now you want to still argue about it years later?  What the hell is WRONG with you???  Conversations with you are INANE!  In my opinion, I've never encountered any situation as nonsensical as trying to discuss anything with you.  Seems just not worth even trying.
What people like you do not understand is most grant-funded R&D projects never even take place at all.  The promoters typically "just give up".  I found that out when, first I noticed the immense amount of paperwork where they almost force you to make overly-optimistic statements like how any trillions of dollars you will save ratepayers, then the immense amount of interest from The California Energy Commission when my project was completed - keyword: "completed".  I found out that completing a project was unusual.  That's why it's so hard to get a grant - almost every grantee lets the grantors down, producing nothing.  So they are skeptical.  Think of your AWE-powered concert, announced, but you had nothing to run it.  Well there are apparently lots of people out there with that same level of reality-avoidance.  Why don't you stop arguing about how wrong you were before, and try generating some electricity after 12 years?   Here's another stupid project that win millions from ARPA-E - cancelled.  https://arpa-e.energy.gov/?q=slick-sheet-project/new-option-wind-energy&page=1
Do you really have to question why I observe: "idiots, idiots, idiots"?  From top-to-bottom, all idiots.  And you, my friend, are, to my way of thinking anyway, the poster-child of the whole kit-and-kaboodle of nothingness.



---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25858 From: dave santos Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Curbing Coal Pollution as AWE's Top Opportunity?
Doug is invited to commission his specific video requests, if he can't find good enough evidence in the archives.



 

Show us a video of your supposed 25 Watts on a meter.
Show us how to use your clutch to drive a 400 MW generator at a steady 1800 RPM plus slip to power a grid, using one or more "power-kites".
Show us anything verifying any of the nonsense you keep spewing year after year.
Show us any power-kite steadily spinning any generator, of any type, and size, anywhere, at any time.
Or  flipwing, or a thousand flipwings, or a bose-einstein condensate using phonons - whatever you want, show us.
Show us anything you've ever talked about actually working.



---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25859 From: dave santos Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Power
"Anything and Everything" are not excuses for kPower scale-prototype and domain research. No excuse needed.

"Ignorance" is probable as USWindpower's excuse for stalled ST progress and unhelpful posting. After all Doug actually brags about not reading AWE papers and basic aerospace lessons. Let him read Loyd for starters, to reduce the willful-ignorance factor.





 



Anything and Everything are your two excuses.  What about ignorance?

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25860 From: dave santos Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Power
Let Doug argue that specific precise conversion ratio of Watts to horsepower is critical engineering.

Modern engineers generally invoke kW as the standard metric, and do not get emotionally hung-up on a legacy horse metric.



 

Wind power is measured in Watts generated.  Your protestations are obvious attempts to divert attention from your failure to generate, after 12 years.  Mentioning the standard horsepower conversion is meaningless.



---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25861 From: dougselsam Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Santos' line-laundry - Where is the "100 Watts"?
I had a strange recollection of daveS pointing us to a years-old video of an off-the-shelf kite-festival "spinner" dangling from a home-made arch kite.  The context, as usual, denigrating my name ("Doug") as a synonym for "facts" (unwanted), pointing the reader to the following video:
claiming this video represented "100 Watts", presented as a response to my observation of Santos generating no electricity after 12 years of supposed wind energy "research".
I had trouble finding the original post - was it in the new forum?
Anyway, I'm trying to reconcile the statement of "100 Watts" with the video, that shows just a kite-show spinner, spinning for 10 seconds.  Where is the 100 Watts?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25862 From: dougselsam Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Curbing Coal Pollution as AWE's Top Opportunity?
This is one more place where Santos' greased-water-balloon of illogic and deception typically bulges out when squeezed: When daveS can no longer maintain his pretense of answering tests of his wind-sanity, he tries to say he will provide the evidence of his stated power output if we pay him to do so.  He thinks it's a clever response.  Reminds me of a conversation I once had with a guy who was "hearing voices"...  Hard not to see the similarity of his attitude and very similar response, when engaged.  Not difficult to see what we're looking at here.  Nurse!


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

Show us a video of your supposed 25 Watts on a meter.
Show us how to use your clutch to drive a 400 MW generator at a steady 1800 RPM plus slip to power a grid, using one or more "power-kites".
Show us anything verifying any of the nonsense you keep spewing year after year.
Show us any power-kite steadily spinning any generator, of any type, and size, anywhere, at any time.
Or  flipwing, or a thousand flipwings, or a bose-einstein condensate using phonons - whatever you want, show us.
Show us anything you've ever talked about actually working.



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Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25863 From: dougselsam Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Power
daveS: "In AWE, its often a matter of "feeling" evident monster power. If you can't feel the crazy power you are probably in the wrong field. The hard job is taming the power, and leave obsessive measuring..."
DougS:***: If you would have told me as a kid that adults could have conversations this ridiculously dumb, I would have had trouble believing it.  After 12 years of bragging about producing even TeraWatts, of repowering nuclear plants, or rendering "windtowers" obsolete, suddenly Santos is touting the "feel" of power from flying a kite as his latest "breakthrough", throwing away even the idea of measuring output or producing any electricity at all.  Today, suddenly, the new metric is whether you can "feel the power" and if not you "are in the wrong field".  Again, it is difficult to believe this could even be an adult conversation.  Lets go back 12 years:  EVERYONE could "feel the power" flying kites.  Nobody knew how to convert the power they felt to electricity.  Generating electricity from the power everyone could feel was the STATED GOAL.  But facts, logic, sticking to a theme - none of this matters to daveS.  All that matters to him is more bragging, more posturing, more pretending.  The only people promoting a "horse metric" are Dave Santos and Joe Faust.  So Santos accuses me of what he was doing.  Sorry to say, there is just no limit to the stupidity encountered in this venue. Really, it seems impossible for any human being to attempt "conversation", of any kind, on this level.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...

Wind power is measured in Watts generated.  Your protestations are obvious attempts to divert attention from your failure to generate, after 12 years.  Mentioning the standard horsepower conversion is meaningless.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25864 From: dave santos Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Inverse Scaling Laws for AWES- Small is Beautiful
The flip-side to Scaling Law limits in engineering is using smallness to advantage, by a sort of Moore's Law logic. There are many useful inverse scaling effects for AWES engineering.

A key R&D method is small scale prototyping for fast cheap agile progress. Radical engineering cycles happen far faster at smaller scales. One must know scaling laws well to extrapolate scaling potential well. Evolve first, then scale. Premature scaling is a related trap. Time is also money; faster non-dimensional time, more profit. Smaller also means less shipping and inventory costs; less costs, more profit. Conserving venture capital by working small stretches available R&D time.

Kite training and testing at small scale happens at a faster inherent clock rate. The student kite pilot begins challenged to keep up with twitchy small kites, and "logs" more dynamic cycles, such that large kites ever after seem comparatively sedate. Testing kite proportions small in turbulent surface air also helps work out problems fastest. Non-dimensional wind velocity is higher at small scale, speeding fuller power-curve estimation.

Gravity, inertial-mass, and strength limits are initially mitigated by working small. Smallness helps get crude proof-of-concept prototypes started, for later detail refinements to enable scaling. Kite Networks allow unit-kites to be better scaled to operations; helpfully smaller compared to maximally-scaled single kites of equivalent power. Material science works at the smallest scale of structure, for the best vastest overall scale. The Titanic is thought to have been doomed above all by a microscopic metallurgical flaw of its steel.

The constant thickness of fabric suited to a given wing-loading, even as a kite soft wing scales up, is the key to vast kites. Only the load-path network needs to thicken along primary root paths, at a far lower scaling penalty than a full rigid wing. Again, non-dimensional wind velocity applies, and large kites in most-probable wind velocities are spared from less-probable non-dimensional gusts. A smaller thinner kite line more closely matched to its max working load has a higher Speed of Sound, which aids real-time control-line inputs.

No doubt there are more inverse-scaling advantages to identify. Scaling Laws fortunately cut both ways. Think small to go big. Caution: Don't go too small (choking hazard).
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25865 From: dave santos Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Santos' line-laundry - Where is the "100 Watts"?
Doug is mistaken that the turbine in the video is just a "spinner" with no load. Its a step-up gear flygen of about 200W max working output tested both open- and short-circuited.

"100Watts" is a rough but conservative estimate. The AWES is available for Doug to buy of contract for a careful power curve, if he thinks 100Watts was an unrealistic estimate.

Similarly, 5W is a fair estimate of what Doug's "yardstick ST" could do if measured. Maybe Doug cannot reasonably estimate power as well as more-experienced AWE experimenters.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25866 From: dougselsam Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Inverse Scaling Laws for AWES- Small is Beautiful
As I've mentioned for years here, sometimes only to be censored, one symptom of "The Professor Crackpot Syndrome" is thinking "We won't be taken seriously unless we start at utility-scale".  Always seemed inane to me.  Of COURSE you start small.  Of COURSE you want something to float in a bathtub before funding an ocean-liner.  When my posts were even allowed (since they contain facts), I was derided for outlining "the syndrome" by people checking all the boxes of "the syndrome" - coincidence?
Suddenly, once again, daveS regurgitates my own thinking as his own. 
What you read below falls into the category of "more excuses from daveS".
He's still trying to dance his way around the simple fact that after 12 years of empty bragging, he's failed to figure out a way to translate the immense power anyone flying a kite can "feel", to a form (electricity) that can power lights, appliances, etc.  Today he's calling the concept of measuring that hopefully-resulting power denigrating names. Anything to try to redefine reality around his own failures in such a way as to frame his failures as overwhelming success.  Measuring is now bad, since he has nothing to measure.  Sure daveS, now measuring output is the enemy.  "The Titanic"  There you go.  Uh-huh. Sure.  Feel better now?  You're on a roll now, eh?  How can he go on like this?


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25867 From: dave santos Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Santos' line-laundry - Where is the "100 Watts"?
Two further corrections of Doug's post, consistent with archived content-

- This AWES was based on Mini-Mothra, as designed and built by Ed Sapir for kPower.

- The WECS part is not "line-laundry" as such, since it does not hang from the kite's tether-lines, but directly from the kite.

Hopefully Doug learns from initial mistakes, to progress his expertise over time.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25868 From: dougselsam Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Santos' line-laundry - Where is the "100 Watts"?



---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25869 From: dougselsam Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Santos' line-laundry - Where is the "100 Watts"?
OK thanks for clarifying:  There was no "100 Watts" - it was just one more figment of your misguided imagination...
The "propeller" was of the type sold by kite outlets as "line-laundry"...
No electrical generation took place, according to you.


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25870 From: dave santos Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Santos' line-laundry - Where is the "100 Watts"?
Yes Doug, you can take our word for it, its a flygen AWES, never a mere "spinner". In fact, the rotor blades were specially rigged to develop power, as the original 4m spinner was designed depowered, for public safety.

You are welcome to lease this AWES, as tested, for your standard of evaluation, at 100USD a day, one week minimum, plus shipping and insurance. Or go ahead and suspect wrongly its a spinner.

No we don't bother to measure power all the time, when estimates serve. I'm happy with a 5W estimation of your yardstick ST. kPower's focus is testing more ideas faster, in order to someday test best by third-party certification, as suggested to us by Paul Gipe.

Who cares if you do not meter all your prototypes as you demand others to? Claim any measured power you want, you'll still need to pass Paul's third-party testing.



 




---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25871 From: dougselsam Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Santos' line-laundry - Where is the "100 Watts"?
OK no 100 Watts after all.  Got it. 
Take your "feel the power" and "estimate" to Paul Gipe, or anyone in wind energy, and see what happens.

daveS inaacurately accuses: "Who cares if you do not meter all your prototypes as you demand others to?"

DougS Replies: *** Huh??????!?!?!?!?  This is why I say, you lie on a regular basis.  When did I ever "demand" anyone to "meter all their prototypes"?  When did I "demand" anything from anyone?  Where do you get ""all" prototypes"?  It seems you can only mischaracterize my position on anything.  I simply asked  you, the biggest and longest-lasting bragger, for ANY output data.  Heck, show us your generator lighting some light bulbs - anything!  Turns out, as we already knew, you have none, after 12 years of bragging.  I did not suggest meter every prototype.  I did not mention "others".  I suggested YOU show us a meter or ANY output data of ANY kind on ANY prototype, EVER, in light of your claims to target re-powering the existing multi-hundred-MegaWatt generators of nuclear plants using "power-kites".  Or show us a small power kite making 100 Watts.  ANYTHING after 12 years of saying you are the top researcher!  ANYTHING!  What a joke, as usual.


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  




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Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25872 From: dave santos Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Santos' line-laundry - Where is the "100 Watts"?
Supplemental notes for the record-

This cool Mini-Mothra Flygen could likely have driven a


 

Yes Doug, you can take our word for it, its a flygen AWES, never a mere "spinner". In fact, the rotor blades were specially rigged to develop power, as the original 4m spinner was designed depowered, for public safety.

You are welcome to lease this AWES, as tested, for your standard of evaluation, at 100USD a day, one week minimum, plus shipping and insurance. Or go ahead and suspect wrongly its a spinner.

No we don't bother to measure power all the time, when estimates serve. I'm happy with a 5W estimation of your yardstick ST. kPower's focus is testing more ideas faster, in order to someday test best by third-party certification, as suggested to us by Paul Gipe.

Who cares if you do not meter all your prototypes as you demand others to? Claim any measured power you want, you'll still need to pass Paul's third-party testing.

On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎June‎ ‎4‎, ‎2019‎ ‎12‎:‎40‎:‎14‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


 




---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25873 From: dave santos Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Convergence of Daisy, Rotating Reels, and Carousel Concepts
This is actually a fairly old trend in the torque concept space, away from a small diameter driveshaft to a broad torque ring on the surface. Years ago we considered connecting carousel kites aloft, for added topological stability. This suggested a sinuous loop of kites* around the circular phase space. A simple ring of kites is a Daisy. If each leg of the ring has a reel, its a Rotating Reel as well.

Taken together, this is where torque-based AWES leads, as a fairly viable architecture with good scaling and simplified control. The slow angular velocity of the whole is not an issue, since reel or carriage-wheel motions recover fast load-motion.

To the extent these ideas can be shown to have first converged on this forum, in synergistic combination, plus key details, they are claimed in the Open-AWE_IP-Pool 

What to call the combined ideas- Careelsel? Daisy Train?

----------
* "kite-snake" or "kite-rope" ideas also apply, for the upper kite ring.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25874 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Convergence of Daisy, Rotating Reels, and Carousel Concepts

What Dave Santos calls "convergence" is "References" that are generally indicated in the end of papers like on https://www.researchgate.net/publication/324135034_Airborne_Wind_Energy_Conversion_Using_a_Rotating_Reel_System .

 

"To the extent these ideas can be shown to have first converged on this forum, in synergistic combination, plus key details, they are claimed in the Open-AWE_IP-Pool" 

The Open-AWE_IP-Pool has nothing to do with carousels, Daisy, or Rotating Ree systems.
 
"What to call the combined ideas- Careelsel? Daisy Train?"
Why not Oscillating-Quantum-Böse-Einstein-MetaSpace-MetaThing-MetaQuark-MetaKite?

 

 

 

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25875 From: dave santos Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Power
Doug is mistaken of which came first; my childhood feelings of monster wind power experienced in major storms, sailing, flying, and special contexts, like killing runaway sport parachutes dragging in high wind. Far later came my adult learning, thanks to Archer et al, of the TW challenges we face.

Its best to both feel wind power viscerally AND learn from great professors. Doing neither skill well seems consistent with power meter over-dependence and not reading papers.



 

daveS: "In AWE, its often a matter of "feeling" evident monster power. If you can't feel the crazy power you are probably in the wrong field. The hard job is taming the power, and leave obsessive measuring..."
DougS:***: If you would have told me as a kid that adults could have conversations this ridiculously dumb, I would have had trouble believing it.  After 12 years of bragging about producing even TeraWatts, of repowering nuclear plants, or rendering "windtowers" obsolete, suddenly Santos is touting the "feel" of power from flying a kite as his latest "breakthrough", throwing away even the idea of measuring output or producing any electricity at all.  Today, suddenly, the new metric is whether you can "feel the power" and if not you "are in the wrong field".  Again, it is difficult to believe this could even be an adult conversation.  Lets go back 12 years:  EVERYONE could "feel the power" flying kites.  Nobody knew how to convert the power they felt to electricity.  Generating electricity from the power everyone could feel was the STATED GOAL.  But facts, logic, sticking to a theme - none of this matters to daveS.  All that matters to him is more bragging, more posturing, more pretending.  The only people promoting a "horse metric" are Dave Santos and Joe Faust.  So Santos accuses me of what he was doing.  Sorry to say, there is just no limit to the stupidity encountered in this venue. Really, it seems impossible for any human being to attempt "conversation", of any kind, on this level.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...

Wind power is measured in Watts generated.  Your protestations are obvious attempts to divert attention from your failure to generate, after 12 years.  Mentioning the standard horsepower conversion is meaningless.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25876 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Convergence of Daisy, Rotating Reels, and Carousel Concepts

What Dave Santos calls "convergence" is "References" that are generally indicated in the end of papers like on https://www.researchgate.net/publication/324135034_Airborne_Wind_Energy_Conversion_Using_a_Rotating_Reel_System .


"To the extent these ideas can be shown to have first converged on this forum, in synergistic combination, plus key details, they are claimed in the Open-AWE_IP-Pool" 

The Open-AWE_IP-Pool has nothing to do with carousels, Daisy, or Rotating Ree systems.

"What to call the combined ideas- Careelsel? Daisy Train?"
Why not Oscillating-Quantum-Böse-Einstein-MetaSpace-MetaThing-MetaQuark-MetaKite?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25877 From: dougselsam Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Paul Gipe testing of a Selsam SuperTurbine(TM)

Excerpts:


"Selsam's SuperTwin had operated unattended from March 2008 through sometime in the spring of 2009."


(Lasting for a year of unattended operation in windfarm Tehachapi would eliminate 99% of small turbines) - DougS


"The unit is more powerful than turbines I've tested before and this has required several time consuming and expensive modifications of our test equipment."

So daveS, ten (10) years ago, Your sudden hero (of today), Paul Gipe, ran one of mine for a year, did not have to even be there in person for daily operation and data acquisition, confirmed more power than previous market-leaders tested.

And in light of that reality, you try to substitute your fantasy of someday being ready to have Paul Gipe confirm something of yours, maybe, when you can't even connect your FREE Harbor Freight multi-tester to anything you've ever built, in 12 years of supposed wind energy research??  Huh???
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25878 From: dougselsam Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Convergence of Daisy, Rotating Reels, and Carousel Concepts
Well you've long maintained that using torque to transmit power to a groundgen is not possible so...
They are all versions of SuperTurrbine, as any idiot can see.
How Mother Nature would grow a wind turbine if she could.
But no need for you to discuss what you've already declared impossible.
Better get back to your 12 years and counting of cutting-edge wind energy "research", with still no power generated yet.


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25879 From: dougselsam Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Santos' line-laundry - Where is the "100 Watts"?
daveS said: "100W stands, as a conservative and reasonable field estimate by a seasoned technician."
DougS replies: *** Oh I see, whatever you say "stands", huh?  In what, your dreams?  Coming from a guy who has never measured any output from any wind energy device he has ever built?  "Seasoned"?  How about "hopelessly inexperienced and naive"?  You are smoking way too much of "your own crack".  Completely delusional.


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

Yes Doug, you can take our word for it, its a flygen AWES, never a mere "spinner". In fact, the rotor blades were specially rigged to develop power, as the original 4m spinner was designed depowered, for public safety.

You are welcome to lease this AWES, as tested, for your standard of evaluation, at 100USD a day, one week minimum, plus shipping and insurance. Or go ahead and suspect wrongly its a spinner.

No we don't bother to measure power all the time, when estimates serve. I'm happy with a 5W estimation of your yardstick ST. kPower's focus is testing more ideas faster, in order to someday test best by third-party certification, as suggested to us by Paul Gipe.

Who cares if you do not meter all your prototypes as you demand others to? Claim any measured power you want, you'll still need to pass Paul's third-party testing.

On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎June‎ ‎4‎, ‎2019‎ ‎12‎:‎40‎:‎14‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, dougselsam@... [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  




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Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25880 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Convergence of Daisy, Rotating Reels, and Carousel Concepts

Perhaps SuperTurbine (tm) versions will be "claimed in the Open-AWE_IP-Pool" as they "...can be shown to have first converged on this forum...".

 

 

 

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25881 From: dougselsam Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Power
Oh yes, now I'm "mistaken"  OK...
daveS I do not believe your "childhood feelings" show data, in a discussion of power output.
You seem to just have an unending reservoir of excuses.
"power meter over-dependence" - Wow, what an EXCUSE!!!  
Now, suddenly, "measuring power" is a mental illness.
Yup, officially-diagnosed, just today, by Professor Crackpot:

"Power-Meter Overdependence"!  (Talk to your doctor.  Power-meter over-dependence may lead to headaches, nausea, heartburn, constipation, diarrhea, and suicidal thoughts or actions!  So take it!  It's really good for you!)
No WONDER you don't measure power like 100% of the rest of wind energy - it's a mental illness!! 
And you'd hate to be associated with that, right daveS?  ;)
(ding ding ding ding, red-flag red-flag red-flag...)  (ahem...)
"and not reading papers" Yeah I should really read more.  Maybe if I read enough, that will make it so you magically start occasionally measuring power, like me.  What a twisted trail of logic to try to follow.
All excuses, all the time: =  

daveS: "In AWE, its often a matter of "feeling" evident monster power. If you can't feel the crazy power you are probably in the wrong field. The hard job is taming the power, and leave obsessive measuring..."
DougS:***: If you would have told me as a kid that adults could have conversations this ridiculously dumb, I would have had trouble believing it.  After 12 years of bragging about producing even TeraWatts, of repowering nuclear plants, or rendering "windtowers" obsolete, suddenly Santos is touting the "feel" of power from flying a kite as his latest "breakthrough", throwing away even the idea of measuring output or producing any electricity at all.  Today, suddenly, the new metric is whether you can "feel the power" and if not you "are in the wrong field".  Again, it is difficult to believe this could even be an adult conversation.  Lets go back 12 years:  EVERYONE could "feel the power" flying kites.  Nobody knew how to convert the power they felt to electricity.  Generating electricity from the power everyone could feel was the STATED GOAL.  But facts, logic, sticking to a theme - none of this matters to daveS.  All that matters to him is more bragging, more posturing, more pretending.  The only people promoting a "horse metric" are Dave Santos and Joe Faust.  So Santos accuses me of what he was doing.  Sorry to say, there is just no limit to the stupidity encountered in this venue. Really, it seems impossible for any human being to attempt "conversation", of any kind, on this level.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...

Wind power is measured in Watts generated.  Your protestations are obvious attempts to divert attention from your failure to generate, after 12 years.  Mentioning the standard horsepower conversion is meaningless.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25882 From: dave santos Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Why the Wind tries to Kill Us, How to Tame It.
AWE's Children of the Wind know this-

When It gets up, Wind is a vast wild mostly-invisible Beast, that tries to kill us for our weaknesses and mistakes. You get know Wind by living and working together, gaining proficient skill. You gain a wonderful Friend and Ally, that can bless you; but you must keep up the relationship, and not get dull, or Wind will kill you after all. 

There are a few basic ways to tame Wind- Sailing is a fine beginning. A turbine can be bolted to pole and mostly forgotten, but that's not much fun. Flying freely inside Wind takes aviation skills, but is fairly mild going. Technical kiting is the ultimate monster connection to the wind, even to high altitudes, with great skill and judgement required.

Its the connection to a ground anchor that makes high Wind most monstrous. A kitesurfer, sailor, or pilot can give ground to limit peak Wind force, but a fixed kite anchor fully develops epic tensile power surges. Peak Wind power is tamed mechanically, using familiar industrial machine principles and components. Study and train hard; Wind will spare your life and bless you.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25883 From: benhaiemp Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Convergence of Daisy, Rotating Reels, and Carousel Concepts
Perhaps SuperTurbine (tm) versions will be "claimed in the Open-AWE_IP-Pool" as they "...can be shown to have first converged on this forum...".
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25884 From: dave santos Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Convergence of Daisy, Rotating Reels, and Carousel Concepts
Pierre,

All these methods have been discussed at great length over years. Its up to future AWE IP litigation or arbitration to settle priority claims based on the document trail.

Go ahead and make your own claims as fairly as you can. I think the idea of linking Carousel kites together aloft in a loop may have first been made public here. Who knows where first mention of reeling carousel kites may be found?

Your suggested name for the combined architecture is too long and poorly descriptive to likely catch on. How about "Caraisy" (sounds like "crazy")?





 

What Dave Santos calls "convergence" is "References" that are generally indicated in the end of papers like on https://www.researchgate.net/publication/324135034_Airborne_Wind_Energy_Conversion_Using_a_Rotating_Reel_System .


"To the extent these ideas can be shown to have first converged on this forum, in synergistic combination, plus key details, they are claimed in the Open-AWE_IP-Pool" 

The Open-AWE_IP-Pool has nothing to do with carousels, Daisy, or Rotating Ree systems.

"What to call the combined ideas- Careelsel? Daisy Train?"
Why not Oscillating-Quantum-Böse-Einstein-MetaSpace-MetaThing-MetaQuark-MetaKite?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25885 From: dave santos Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Paul Gipe testing of a Selsam SuperTurbine(TM)
Doug,

Good for you, but Gipe did not test an ST in flight, so its not AWE.

To pass Gipe's challenge made to us, it has to fly and be measured to formal certification criteria. Do that to win Gipe's challenge. I'm trying for it too, in due time. Many of us are.

Don't just rest on your past. AWE is still an open quest.



 


Excerpts:


"Selsam's SuperTwin had operated unattended from March 2008 through sometime in the spring of 2009."


(Lasting for a year of unattended operation in windfarm Tehachapi would eliminate 99% of small turbines) - DougS


"The unit is more powerful than turbines I've tested before and this has required several time consuming and expensive modifications of our test equipment."

So daveS, ten (10) years ago, Your sudden hero (of today), Paul Gipe, ran one of mine for a year, did not have to even be there in person for daily operation and data acquisition, confirmed more power than previous market-leaders tested.

And in light of that reality, you try to substitute your fantasy of someday being ready to have Paul Gipe confirm something of yours, maybe, when you can't even connect your FREE Harbor Freight multi-tester to anything you've ever built, in 12 years of supposed wind energy research??  Huh???
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25886 From: dave santos Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Santos' line-laundry - Where is the "100 Watts"?
Yes, the estimate stands as is.

Actually, we have used Borsheim's over-running clutch groundgen with its power meter to make measurements of flipwings to a few Watts. The readings varied greatly due to gusts, all across the the range. We were not measuring wind velocities, so the numbers meant very little.

Thanks for conceding that folks need not measure power with meters every time, that rough estimates are part of the practice. Thanks also for agreeing that COTS TRL9 loads like the Seiko and all sorts of crank and pull-cord generators constitute modest definite power loads on video.



 

daveS said: "100W stands, as a conservative and reasonable field estimate by a seasoned technician."
DougS replies: *** Oh I see, whatever you say "stands", huh?  In what, your dreams?  Coming from a guy who has never measured any output from any wind energy device he has ever built?  "Seasoned"?  How about "hopelessly inexperienced and naive"?  You are smoking way too much of "your own crack".  Completely delusional.


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

Yes Doug, you can take our word for it, its a flygen AWES, never a mere "spinner". In fact, the rotor blades were specially rigged to develop power, as the original 4m spinner was designed depowered, for public safety.

You are welcome to lease this AWES, as tested, for your standard of evaluation, at 100USD a day, one week minimum, plus shipping and insurance. Or go ahead and suspect wrongly its a spinner.

No we don't bother to measure power all the time, when estimates serve. I'm happy with a 5W estimation of your yardstick ST. kPower's focus is testing more ideas faster, in order to someday test best by third-party certification, as suggested to us by Paul Gipe.

Who cares if you do not meter all your prototypes as you demand others to? Claim any measured power you want, you'll still need to pass Paul's third-party testing.

On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎June‎ ‎4‎, ‎2019‎ ‎12‎:‎40‎:‎14‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, dougselsam@... [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  




---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25887 From: dave santos Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Convergence of Daisy, Rotating Reels, and Carousel Concepts
Go ahead and claim that Pierre.

I don't recall the ST "converged here", but if the record shows it, give credit to whoever made the inventive leap. I think the ST as patented was first shown poorly scalable here, under square-cube scaling limits. That's an unraveling of the concept.



 

Pierre,

All these methods have been discussed at great length over years. Its up to future AWE IP litigation or arbitration to settle priority claims based on the document trail.

Go ahead and make your own claims as fairly as you can. I think the idea of linking Carousel kites together aloft in a loop may have first been made public here. Who knows where first mention of reeling carousel kites may be found?

Your suggested name for the combined architecture is too long and poorly descriptive to likely catch on. How about "Caraisy" (sounds like "crazy")?



On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎June‎ ‎4‎, ‎2019‎ ‎02‎:‎52‎:‎35‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, pierre-benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


 

What Dave Santos calls "convergence" is "References" that are generally indicated in the end of papers like on https://www.researchgate.net/publication/324135034_Airborne_Wind_Energy_Conversion_Using_a_Rotating_Reel_System .


"To the extent these ideas can be shown to have first converged on this forum, in synergistic combination, plus key details, they are claimed in the Open-AWE_IP-Pool" 

The Open-AWE_IP-Pool has nothing to do with carousels, Daisy, or Rotating Ree systems.

"What to call the combined ideas- Careelsel? Daisy Train?"
Why not Oscillating-Quantum-Böse-Einstein-MetaSpace-MetaThing-MetaQuark-MetaKite?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25888 From: dave santos Date: 6/4/2019
Subject: Re: Convergence of Daisy, Rotating Reels, and Carousel Concepts
OK Pierre, lets accept your ST "convergence" claim on face value. Doug has certainly been invited to join the Pool, and is free to do so anytime. So in fact what you propose is exactly what Doug is offered. 

Let future Pool review boards sort out which & whose AWE ideas mattered most, but give all Pool members base rate Pool revenue, from residual statistical uncertainty, intangible value, and social equity criteria.