Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                          AWES 25737 to 25786 Page 406 of 440.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25737 From: dougselsam Date: 5/16/2019
Subject: Re: Reeling Tether-Wear Scaling-Factor

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25738 From: dave santos Date: 5/16/2019
Subject: Re: Reeling Tether-Wear Scaling-Factor

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25739 From: dave santos Date: 5/16/2019
Subject: Irish Wind Conference to feature AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25740 From: dave santos Date: 5/17/2019
Subject: Paper: Crosswind Kite Power with Tower

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25741 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/17/2019
Subject: Re: Irish Wind Conference to feature AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25742 From: dave santos Date: 5/17/2019
Subject: Re: Maiden Flight of Crosswind Power Arch

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25743 From: dave santos Date: 5/17/2019
Subject: "Fishing-Pole Fairlead" solves reeling line-wear issue

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25744 From: dave santos Date: 5/17/2019
Subject: Re: Irish Wind Conference to feature AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25745 From: dave santos Date: 5/17/2019
Subject: More Minesto Back-Story

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25746 From: dave santos Date: 5/18/2019
Subject: It just gets weirder- Payne's spooky trail into the Metaverse and th

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25747 From: dave santos Date: 5/18/2019
Subject: Advancing Kite Therapy a Watt or Two at a Time

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25748 From: dave santos Date: 5/18/2019
Subject: Flagged New Forum Post on AWEC Conferences mirrored

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25749 From: dave santos Date: 5/18/2019
Subject: Roots of AWE- 1972 Vintage DS "Wind Flying" and Joby-like VTOL-boxki

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25750 From: dave santos Date: 5/18/2019
Subject: Roots of AWE, 1975- Payne warns against rigid glider AWE, suggests "

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25751 From: benhaiemp Date: 5/18/2019
Subject: Re: Flagged New Forum Post on AWEC Conferences mirrored

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25752 From: dave santos Date: 5/18/2019
Subject: Re: Flagged New Forum Post on AWEC Conferences mirrored

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25753 From: benhaiemp Date: 5/18/2019
Subject: Re: Flagged New Forum Post on AWEC Conferences mirrored

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25754 From: dave santos Date: 5/18/2019
Subject: Paraglider Speed-Bar mechanism as Kite-Killer

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25755 From: dave santos Date: 5/18/2019
Subject: Austin's mysterious Airborne Wind Energy Labs

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25756 From: dave santos Date: 5/18/2019
Subject: Re: Flagged New Forum Post on AWEC Conferences mirrored

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25757 From: dave santos Date: 5/18/2019
Subject: Re: Flagged New Forum Post on AWEC Conferences mirrored

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25758 From: dave santos Date: 5/18/2019
Subject: Discovering McCutchen, Aeromodeller 1958

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25759 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/19/2019
Subject: Re: Discovering McCutchen, Aeromodeller 1958

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25760 From: benhaiemp Date: 5/19/2019
Subject: Re: Discovering McCutchen, Aeromodeller 1958

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25761 From: dave santos Date: 5/19/2019
Subject: Re: Discovering McCutchen, Aeromodeller 1958

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25762 From: dave santos Date: 5/19/2019
Subject: Ghost-like endorsement of Anchor Belay architecture, spooky noise ex

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25763 From: dave santos Date: 5/19/2019
Subject: Crosswind Tow Launch for Crosswind Power Arch

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25764 From: dave santos Date: 5/19/2019
Subject: "Marionette Fashion" Control (USP3987987)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25765 From: dave santos Date: 5/19/2019
Subject: airborne humidification with wet kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25766 From: dave santos Date: 5/19/2019
Subject: Re: "Marionette Fashion" Control (USP3987987)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25767 From: dave santos Date: 5/19/2019
Subject: South Asian Kite Video Golden Age is ON

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25768 From: dave santos Date: 5/20/2019
Subject: Jupiter as AWE Atmospheric Similarity-Case

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25769 From: dougselsam Date: 5/22/2019
Subject: Re: AWEC 2019 Call-for-Abstracts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25770 From: Santos Date: 5/22/2019
Subject: Re: AWEC 2019 Call-for-Abstracts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25771 From: dougselsam Date: 5/22/2019
Subject: Re: Canada's Diesel-dependent Communities as AWES Early-adopters

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25772 From: Santos Date: 5/22/2019
Subject: Re: Canada's Diesel-dependent Communities as AWES Early-adopters

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25773 From: benhaiemp Date: 5/22/2019
Subject: Re: AWEC 2019 Call-for-Abstracts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25774 From: Santos Date: 5/22/2019
Subject: Re: AWEC 2019 Call-for-Abstracts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25775 From: dougselsam Date: 5/22/2019
Subject: Re: AWEC 2019 Call-for-Abstracts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25776 From: Santos Date: 5/22/2019
Subject: Re: AWEC 2019 Call-for-Abstracts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25777 From: Santos Date: 5/22/2019
Subject: kPower's on a roll...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25778 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/22/2019
Subject: Power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25779 From: Santos Date: 5/22/2019
Subject: Re: kPower's on a roll...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25780 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/22/2019
Subject: Re: Power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25781 From: dougselsam Date: 5/23/2019
Subject: Re: Power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25782 From: dougselsam Date: 5/23/2019
Subject: Re: kPower's on a roll...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25783 From: dave santos Date: 5/23/2019
Subject: Euronews sees trend toward return of Ship Sails and Kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25784 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/23/2019
Subject: Re: Euronews sees trend toward return of Ship Sails and Kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25785 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/24/2019
Subject: Re: Power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25786 From: dougselsam Date: 5/24/2019
Subject: Re: Euronews sees trend toward return of Ship Sails and Kites



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25737 From: dougselsam Date: 5/16/2019
Subject: Re: Reeling Tether-Wear Scaling-Factor
Yes JoeF I noticed that it appeared that my words were daveS' words in a recent post by me.
My apologies for an honest typo-kind of mistake.  I think most of the 5 or so readers know very well who said what there though.
Beyond that, I HAVE studied all that daveS pretends to do in AWE.  I don't think he makes any sense.  I think the fact of him saying so many wrong things is very well documented. 
My reaction is most everything he says is wrong and he has developed nothing significant and is increasingly indicating lately that he never will, due to, from what he says lately, having no real interest in getting anything working.  He just wants to pretend relevance and start arguments he can't win, unless you rescue him by censoring whomever is standing up to him.  That is my honest opinion.  Sorry.
You can opine that some foam model kite or plane swung around his head on a stick with a string supposedly generating a brief 5 Watts is "significant".  I honestly disagree.  I don't think you'll find any independent confirmation of yours and daveS' "opinion" that such a demo WAS significant.  Why was it not featured in newspaper articles covering the event?  Where can we read about it except from you two?  Where is it recorded in any coverage of the conference?  Why?
It's noteworthy that you and daveS seem to continue the same "incestuous" or "nepotism"-type relationship where you both confirm each other's supposed "expertise" in AWE, whereas nobody else seems to confirm it, but I honestly do not know of any actual contribution from either of you other than running the forum and helping to get that first conference started.  Thanks for that, but when organizers start getting ahead of themselves thinking they thereby have technical expertise, well, if you two already know everything, why have a conference anyway?  Why not just implement your (supposed) expertise and get something running?  What's the problem Joe?  Where's your AWE system?  Where is daveS' AWE system?  Hmmmmmm????
I'm going to take a stance here: neither of you two have contributed any working AWE system that I am aware of in the 12 years since you both started posturing as AWE experts.  I think you're best off staying within your area of expertise, which is publishing, organizing a forum, etc.  To confuse your skill set of publicity, with having expertise in the actual subject matter, is subject to a "prove it" type of response.  I honestly do not see any evidence that either of you have any expertise in AWE.  You can call it negative.  You can try to say it is "a personal attack".  To me it is just a simple observation.  Whatever tactic you two poseurs would like to employ to try once again to dodge this main issue, I think you two face: Between the two of you, unlike most players in AWE, you just have never demonstrated any working AWE system of note.  Show us one if you disagree.  Not complicated.  You'd like to make it SEEM complicated, but it's not.  And please don't try to bring up 5 supposed brief Watts 12 years ago.  In wind energy, you can't hang your hat on a supposed brief 5 Watts for the rest of your life.  Nobody in wind energy cares about 5 Watts, assuming it is even true.  It's not even a rounding error.  I will say the same thing to you as I did to daveS: How can you go on like this?  Please show us your AWE system, or stop pretending.  Thank you.


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Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25738 From: dave santos Date: 5/16/2019
Subject: Re: Reeling Tether-Wear Scaling-Factor
Correcting "500m2" to "500m" high. 

Best of luck to Doug in the next twelve years of his ST work. Nobody has yet succeeded in AWE to the required level of performance, but what a wonderful time it is testing novel scale AWES prototypes. Lets not give up on anyone's work making a difference.



 

Yes JoeF I noticed that it appeared that my words were daveS' words in a recent post by me.
My apologies for an honest typo-kind of mistake.  I think most of the 5 or so readers know very well who said what there though.
Beyond that, I HAVE studied all that daveS pretends to do in AWE.  I don't think he makes any sense.  I think the fact of him saying so many wrong things is very well documented. 
My reaction is most everything he says is wrong and he has developed nothing significant and is increasingly indicating lately that he never will, due to, from what he says lately, having no real interest in getting anything working.  He just wants to pretend relevance and start arguments he can't win, unless you rescue him by censoring whomever is standing up to him.  That is my honest opinion.  Sorry.
You can opine that some foam model kite or plane swung around his head on a stick with a string supposedly generating a brief 5 Watts is "significant".  I honestly disagree.  I don't think you'll find any independent confirmation of yours and daveS' "opinion" that such a demo WAS significant.  Why was it not featured in newspaper articles covering the event?  Where can we read about it except from you two?  Where is it recorded in any coverage of the conference?  Why?
It's noteworthy that you and daveS seem to continue the same "incestuous" or "nepotism"-type relationship where you both confirm each other's supposed "expertise" in AWE, whereas nobody else seems to confirm it, but I honestly do not know of any actual contribution from either of you other than running the forum and helping to get that first conference started.  Thanks for that, but when organizers start getting ahead of themselves thinking they thereby have technical expertise, well, if you two already know everything, why have a conference anyway?  Why not just implement your (supposed) expertise and get something running?  What's the problem Joe?  Where's your AWE system?  Where is daveS' AWE system?  Hmmmmmm????
I'm going to take a stance here: neither of you two have contributed any working AWE system that I am aware of in the 12 years since you both started posturing as AWE experts.  I think you're best off staying within your area of expertise, which is publishing, organizing a forum, etc.  To confuse your skill set of publicity, with having expertise in the actual subject matter, is subject to a "prove it" type of response.  I honestly do not see any evidence that either of you have any expertise in AWE.  You can call it negative.  You can try to say it is "a personal attack".  To me it is just a simple observation.  Whatever tactic you two poseurs would like to employ to try once again to dodge this main issue, I think you two face: Between the two of you, unlike most players in AWE, you just have never demonstrated any working AWE system of note.  Show us one if you disagree.  Not complicated.  You'd like to make it SEEM complicated, but it's not.  And please don't try to bring up 5 supposed brief Watts 12 years ago.  In wind energy, you can't hang your hat on a supposed brief 5 Watts for the rest of your life.  Nobody in wind energy cares about 5 Watts, assuming it is even true.  It's not even a rounding error.  I will say the same thing to you as I did to daveS: How can you go on like this?  Please show us your AWE system, or stop pretending.  Thank you.


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <joefaust333@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25739 From: dave santos Date: 5/16/2019
Subject: Irish Wind Conference to feature AWE
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25740 From: dave santos Date: 5/17/2019
Subject: Paper: Crosswind Kite Power with Tower
Interesting paper full of good details, even if towers for AWES do not prevail. There is also the possibility of conventional wind towers being converted to AWE, as discussed here before.

Good elaboration of cosine-loss issue-

Crosswind Kite Power with Tower
Florian Bauer, Christoph M. Hackl, Keyue Smedley and Ralph M. Kennel

(PDF) Crosswind Kite Power with Tower


Sample third-party-insight detail-


"However, a “passive” concept is only feasible, if the kite is light enough, which is usually the case for soft kites only."
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25741 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/17/2019
Subject: Re: Irish Wind Conference to feature AWE
"Sessions led by Dr Roland Schmehl of TU Delft which will focus on airborne wind energy systems, a potential game-changing technology which will allow wind energy to be generated by drones and kites flying at high altitudes; "


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25742 From: dave santos Date: 5/17/2019
Subject: Re: Maiden Flight of Crosswind Power Arch
Some context for this Power Arch design and demo: Its fully crosswind-cycle (no-reel-in) without control-pod or RF-link dependence. With motor-gen capability, it even seems feasible for the power kite to maintain towed flight in calm and stow and tow-launch from a sleeve (spinnaker-sock) at one end. No other AWES architecture seems to enjoy all these advantages. 

The trade-off is that a power arch must rotate to stayed face-to-wind. The engineering question is whether the cost of anchor-belay is worth the advantages. Of necessity, mountain climbers embrace belay. Crane-work, towing, trains, ship-mooring, and so on, prove that heavy-industry has no serious problem dynamically connecting and disconnecting great loads. AWES developers lacking such practical backgrounds are most challenged to entertain anchor-belay methods.

The latest kPower KiteFarm model is a central groundgen surrounded by anchors, with many power arches set crosswind at various altitudes and angles, for high airspace-efficiency. Call such spider-like festooning of the sky the "daddy long-legs"AWES rig. Open-AWE_IP-Cloud.





 


An unexpected delight of the maiden test is how the kite can fly away crosswind on demand, and then return back to hand for a kiss.

Here's Rod's old video simulation of the tested concept, which somehow managed to lose the third-line since-

simple kite agriculture application



On ‎Monday‎, ‎May‎ ‎13‎, ‎2019‎ ‎10‎:‎58‎:‎40‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


 

Thanks to Ed for posting this video clip, Its an old kPower sketched-concept that Rod convincingly modelled a few years back, essentially Payne patent fig5 brought to life with a novel rigging solution. The maiden flight occurred in low wind and confirmed basic control. Future tests in high wind are expected to develop decent power. Imagine this rig at ship-kite scale for a MW class AWES. This is what progress in AWE looks like, its great fun as well-
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25743 From: dave santos Date: 5/17/2019
Subject: "Fishing-Pole Fairlead" solves reeling line-wear issue
A simple sailing fairlead block is inadequate for kite-reeling, since AWE loads are so dynamic, with high cycle-counts, such that excess line-wear results (see prior topic).

A proven solution is the flexible reeling fishing pole, which has parallel validation in deep-sea winching in high seas by sprung "davit". Large AWES versions would also be sprung booms. A flexing boom absorbs peaks and slacks, isolating the reel from kite power chaos (esp. kite-plane snubbing).

This is review of old Forum discussion, under the Open-AWE_IP-Cloud
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25744 From: dave santos Date: 5/17/2019
Subject: Re: Irish Wind Conference to feature AWE
Quite a big line-up of AWE presenters; Massimo even to make a unicorn-like conference appearance.

Events | AWESystems


Did an open call for AWE presenters get past us? The schedule should have put Rod and OliverT's sessions back-to-back. In any case, AWE has definitely arrived in the wind energy engineering-science world.



 

"Sessions led by Dr Roland Schmehl of TU Delft which will focus on airborne wind energy systems, a potential game-changing technology which will allow wind energy to be generated by drones and kites flying at high altitudes; "



---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25745 From: dave santos Date: 5/17/2019
Subject: More Minesto Back-Story
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25746 From: dave santos Date: 5/18/2019
Subject: It just gets weirder- Payne's spooky trail into the Metaverse and th
The father of modern AWE, Peter R Payne, was such an aerospace and naval architecture genius that his biographer-granddaughter Brigid Ashwood, does not even mention his AWE work. What then are we to make of her Wired Magazine review of Kitely, the most kitey of VR sims? This is Tallak's notion of a Conspiracy Theory in AWE at its weirdest.

Kitely is an OpenSim based world in the VR Metaverse. Brigid herself is an intriguing neo-pagan "witchy woman", to add to StarHawk, the worlds top witch, in AWE's scope (StarHawk cast an apparently successful spell on KiteMotor1, in 2007, at Skamokawa, WA, just before its maiden flight). What is the general relation of AWE to VR? We have reviewed kite sims before, the best of them are quite magical. Rod is a rather powerful sorcerer of the realm. One can buy kites in Second Life. Most of them at least dance, and the most advanced can actually pull you along in the VR, with imaginary wind. Kite traction is AWE already in the Metaverse. Where is this headed? Payne himself will likely be found in the Metaverse someday, talking about AWE.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25747 From: dave santos Date: 5/18/2019
Subject: Advancing Kite Therapy a Watt or Two at a Time
The World Kite Museum pioneered organized kite activities for special-needs children under the leadership of founder Kay Busing. It was found that these children connected profoundly with kites. It was my honor to work under Kay in pioneering Kite Therapy practice. She also pioneered programs like Kite Arches, and KiteLab's AWE R&D. It made me cry when I first saw a quadriplegic child confined to a wheelchair enraptured by a kite tied to their tiny hand. I have never seen a happier human; and with just a Watt or two of kite power! Let no one wrongly imply small amounts of kite power can't count.

During my resident-scholar years at WKM, I managed to connect powerful kite therapeutic effects to equivalent Dolphin and Equine Therapies, but at far lower cost and far greater access. Along came Connor Doran, who struggled with Epilepsy, and his Tiger Mom, Amy, to WKM, and he went on to triumph on America's Got Talent in Indoor Kite Flying. Longtime readers of this Forum may recall many amazing cases, like terribly wounded First Responders, given poor prospects, who self-diagnosed and healed with kites. I had not had a chance to move forward in this kite specialty for some years, until yesterday.

When kPower demoed AWE recently at Austin's Zilker Kite Festival (Oldest in Western Hemisphere), a 22m2 PL PL was misplaced. Other kite pros found the kite. The process of returning it got me on the charity-organizer mail list. An email call earlier this week went out for kite volunteers to present at a local school (Hernandez Middle School, teacher Patti Cole). Only I responded, expecting the normal school-wide demo format. Instead, it turned out that just 20 kids, with various profound disabilities, had themselves asked to work with kites. There I was, loaded with power-kites and AWES prototypes, the wrong quiver; lucky the kids had their own kites.

There followed a few hours of magic. The kids invented incredible kite situations no kite technologist could foresee, Their happiness was off the chart for human achievement. Five educators required for the little group, with each child a unique case. We were able to brainstorm Kite Therapy to a new level. Patti cited Green Therapy, aka Nature Therapy, as their closest conceptual model. Of course! Nature is the common thread to Dolphin, Equine, and Kite Therapy, which cannot work so well indoors or in dense urban centers. It became clear how much is to be done to perfect Kite Therapy.

One kid's experience yesterday stood out. Joey was considered the worst-of-the-worst in care management; a hyperactive teen at the cognitive level of a four or five year old, with spastic motions. Joey had most begged for kite activity. I had only put up a 9m2 PL PL, constantly coming down in lulls and turbulence. I showed Joey how to relaunch, and he took to it with passion. Again and again he relaunched the kite by himself. He suddenly was high-functioning, for the first time ever in his life, to hold the largest kite flown record of the whole larger school of "normal" kids.

Every kid draws their own value from the kites' versatile offerings. Most modern toy kites are something of a consumer fraud. Appealing packaging themes often hide bad kites destined to disappoint. Our kids struggled gamely with crappy winders and messy tails, while the adults worked like crazy to untangle everything in real time. These kids deserve good kites optimized to their needs, like tailless self-launching (non-dragging) designs with simple reel winders. Patti had gotten as far as determining that "the 99 cent kites are best" (cheapest classic designs). Everyone agreed that a seed had been planted by these kids' call for their own "Kite Day". 

A missing element yesterday were the working-class parents, who often suffer worse than their children. Kite Therapy for kids is ideally Family Therapy. To be continued...

Review Video from 2011-
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25748 From: dave santos Date: 5/18/2019
Subject: Flagged New Forum Post on AWEC Conferences mirrored

There is Moderation concern on the New Forum over this flagged post, in reply to an aside comment by Pierre about everyone being invited to AWEC Conferences, and skepticism if I was somehow in the planning circle. The actual issue of invitations to participate is more nuanced than a public Web invitation alone. 

Sorry if anyone is offended by sincere Conference Planning opinions on all sides. AWE conferences and free discussion matter-

Pierre,

Many more Americans did get to help plan HAWPcon09 and AWEC2011, so you don’t “have to wait a long time” for such inclusion, its happened before. I would be especially glad to help a new US conference with broader participation of US and world players than current AWEC conferences attract.

Favored insiders do get especially invited into the conference planning process, as Wubbo invited JohnO for AWEC2011, and the typical long list of current insiders enjoy. Outsiders in your view are properly relegated to a mere webpage invitation. Nobody in the controlling EU insider circle seems to care about the persisting disadvantage of distant poorly funded players in the current AWEC pattern of Northern EU conferences only.

It would be just as wrong if I or any other narrow party led as an insider clique. This is about broadening equitable participation, not passing around a wrongful conference monopoly to new insiders, with newly excluded classes.

Makani is clearly a first-class Northern EU player ever since AWEC jumped from California, and now with Makani’s Shell-Norway program. They never represented American AWE as such, but Google’s culture. EU AWE should keep in mind Google’s still growing criminal convictions in its courts, recalling how Google AWE search results history so long over-pushed Makani. Enjoy your Makani keynoters as long as you wish, but there really are better players (how about the great ship-kite pioneer, Culp, as an invited keynote?).

At least you are satisfied with AWEC’s standard of inclusion. Don’t only blame the sadly missing; we would love to attend a more open rotating process, we just can’t afford to, and are bored to mostly listen to the same players year after year, with no serious flying included. Most Americans have lost the AWE conference habit for now. Let those who can enjoy your EU conferences. Us second-class outsiders will try and follow the public trail online as best as we are allowed. 

At least what finally counts in AWE is what flies best, not who runs conferences.

daveS
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25749 From: dave santos Date: 5/18/2019
Subject: Roots of AWE- 1972 Vintage DS "Wind Flying" and Joby-like VTOL-boxki
As noted in Payne and McCutcheon USP 3987987, here performance DS kiting birth story. Loyd's son flying balsa and tissue model was the closest case we have seen to this-





Which issue led also to this VTOL ancestor of later similar AWES prototypes-



What a fine issue Sept-72 AAM Mag was.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25750 From: dave santos Date: 5/18/2019
Subject: Roots of AWE, 1975- Payne warns against rigid glider AWE, suggests "
Reviewing USP 3987987, "paraglider" is used. This was 1975, but WP states wrongly "Authors Patrick Gilligan (Canada) and Bertrand Dubuis (Switzerland) wrote the first flight manual, The Paragliding Manual in 1985, coining the word paragliding."* Payne scores again. Here's the meat-

"The systems described thus far interact with the necessarily large amount of air by the use of rapid rotation. These systems contain a large amount of kinetic energy which is not desirable should a failure occur in the system, and additionally, high speeds cause aerodynamic noise. An alternative is to make the kite light, large and relatively slow by making it in the form of a paraglider. Such a device, shown schematically in FIG. 5 and FIG. 5a, is built of cloth on parachute principles. It has been shown that lift to drag ratios of devices of this type is in the order of 6, (see "Steerable Parachutes". Development Center, Marine Corp. Development and Education Command, Quantico, Virginia; Project No. 20-60-LO, (January, 1973)). These devices would allow the paraglider to be tacked quite rapidly across the wind and power would be extracted from the motion of the tethers as the device is tacked. As shown in FIG. 5, a paraglider 100 is coupled by tether 20 and in the direction of the wind 18, the device tacks laterally when the wind is in a direction across the line between two delaying points. Should the wind shift through 90° the device can tack vertically as shown in FIG. 5a because of the light-weight of the kite. Additionally, this lightness reduces the landing speed and reduces the kinetic energy in the system. Power may be extracted in a manner similar to that shown in FIG. 1a where generators are coupled to the axles of each tether roller,"

So rigid wing developers were warned, like Daedalus to Icarus, about "a large amount of kinetic energy which is not desirable should a failure occur in the system, and additionally, high speeds cause aerodynamic noise", and "paraglider" is the identified solution. Doug should blame Payne, not me, for this "crackpot" kPower thinking. Note that the key US Army work was at Quantico, just down the coast, near LaARC. What a fertile crescent this patch of coast was, including Kittyhawk.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragliding
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25751 From: benhaiemp Date: 5/18/2019
Subject: Re: Flagged New Forum Post on AWEC Conferences mirrored
This post contains some questionable material of which this statement: “At least you are satisfied with AWEC’s standard of inclusion.”
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25752 From: dave santos Date: 5/18/2019
Subject: Re: Flagged New Forum Post on AWEC Conferences mirrored
Pierre, That statement is based on your "no justification" opinion on the New Forum for the "insider control" complaints I have posed. How are you also not satisfied with AWEC conference leadership? I do not recall any such complaints on your part, ever. Thank you for patiently correcting my misimpression of your satisfaction with that leadership. Wubbo set a rather high standard to match, and no EU AWE leader has yet come close.



 

This post contains some questionable material of which this statement: “At least you are satisfied with AWEC’s standard of inclusion.”
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25753 From: benhaiemp Date: 5/18/2019
Subject: Re: Flagged New Forum Post on AWEC Conferences mirrored
I have not to justify anything.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25754 From: dave santos Date: 5/18/2019
Subject: Paraglider Speed-Bar mechanism as Kite-Killer
Attachments :
    Basic method to progressively depower and/or dive a soft wing. Too much input "tucks" the wing violently. This may be great for auto kite-killer use, quickly reversible. Many kill methods require resetting or reconnecting manually.



    Inline image




    		   @@attachment@@
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25755 From: dave santos Date: 5/18/2019
    Subject: Austin's mysterious Airborne Wind Energy Labs
    Leo Goldstein's analytical AWE work, based from Austin, Texas, has really been first-class. Odd as it may seem, we (kPower circle) have never met, only talked by phone. its very odd that kPower and Airborne Wind Energy Labs are the only players worldwide who have bet solidly on Payne and McCutchen's preferred embodiment, which on close re-reading of 3987987 turns out to be as fig 1a, fig5, fig5a. I don't think its because we read Payne more carefully, in Austin, its our weird luck. I clearly didn't read what I would have been citing from the rooftops all these years. A legion of other AWE players have covered most all other 3987987 options, as if the critical embodiment text was always skimmed over. Loyd himself, while giving 3987987 its primacy, seems to have missed key bits. 3987987 is a fairly typical combination of an inventor's favorite core concept with a grab-bag of catch-all ideas. That's how the patent game is played. Sadly, known shaky patent claims can become traps for an unwary developers. Not Leo and me, we somehow both think we got 3987987 right, in agreement with Payne and McCutchen's core convictions. Wishing Leo all the best. Hoping Airborne Wind Energy Labs pops right back up when the wind is right-
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25756 From: dave santos Date: 5/18/2019
    Subject: Re: Flagged New Forum Post on AWEC Conferences mirrored
    I have been happy to justify my general complaints. It would be nice to have a more open conference community again. Let a broader swath of academia host conferences worldwide. After all CSUChico started AWE conferences, but never sought to keep them in house. Conferences need to be affordable. The rich players have only made them out of reach by travel demands and costs. The flyers need their fly-in, not just papers. Why all the hidden processes. Let everything about our historic quest be transparent. Reduce insider venture capital influence.  They have failed us as a community.

    Pierre does not need to justify anything. These are self-evident reforms.



     

    I have not to justify anything.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25757 From: dave santos Date: 5/18/2019
    Subject: Re: Flagged New Forum Post on AWEC Conferences mirrored
    There has to be a Darwinian limit on the long-favored insiders and ventures. They can't just rake in large public and private investment indefinitely missing milestones. Its not jut Doug complaining, the feeling is widespread. Where is the public data EU millions have paid for? Crash statistics, real power curves, failure mode analysis? The world is in AWE together, but the controlling ventures act as if they own AWE already, and they haven't earned it.

    EU funding should shift to fresh players and thinking, including conferences. Why not a French conference? An Italian conference is almost a decade overdue. Where is true-aerospace fly-off culture? Why no EU funding for that, just the same slow ventures with me-too architectures. Its really now on the new EU players coming in to break the long-entrenched insiders' grip, to say "enough". If the top ventures prove destined to fail, they should have done so far faster.

    It helps to air concerns, even if they seem ignored. Of course the venture fuss is normal human nature. A lot is at stake, and things will work themselves out. The best engineering science will win, no matter the venture politics.



     

    I have been happy to justify my general complaints. It would be nice to have a more open conference community again. Let a broader swath of academia host conferences worldwide. After all CSUChico started AWE conferences, but never sought to keep them in house. Conferences need to be affordable. The rich players have only made them out of reach by travel demands and costs. The flyers need their fly-in, not just papers. Why all the hidden processes. Let everything about our historic quest be transparent. Reduce insider venture capital influence.  They have failed us as a community.

    Pierre does not need to justify anything. These are self-evident reforms.

    On ‎Saturday‎, ‎May‎ ‎18‎, ‎2019‎ ‎06‎:‎05‎:‎02‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, pierre-benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


     

    I have not to justify anything.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25758 From: dave santos Date: 5/18/2019
    Subject: Discovering McCutchen, Aeromodeller 1958
    Finally, more light on the elusive McCutcheon, Payne's "Watson"-

    "AeroModeller frequently has cause to pat itself on the back for introducing new thoughts and sometimes radical approaches to the hobby. One of the most successful innovations was that by the enterprising American at Cambridge University, Charles \V. McCutchen, with his fabulous Helicopter which has been copied in practically every other magazine throughout the world, and for which many records have been claimed. Charles is still developing Charvbdis using a fuselage and in Picture H we see him making further experiments marionette fashion." 


    In typical AWE conspiracy-theory guise, McCutchen's face is blocked in the astounding photo attached, of a one-bladed copter flown "marionette fashion".



    		   @@attachment@@
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25759 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/19/2019
    Subject: Re: Discovering McCutchen, Aeromodeller 1958

    Charybdis Monocopter Single Blade McCutchen das 2te

    ================================

    Charybdis, Charles McCutchen flying machine

    "Charybdis, 1952 design by Charles McCutchen.
    Model built in march 2013 by me, Camera by Lutz Näkel."
    ===============================

    My Charybdis / McCutchen wing



    =====================================
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25760 From: benhaiemp Date: 5/19/2019
    Subject: Re: Discovering McCutchen, Aeromodeller 1958
    It is a very interesting device, perhaps a model for an AWES. Thanks Joe for the links.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25761 From: dave santos Date: 5/19/2019
    Subject: Re: Discovering McCutchen, Aeromodeller 1958
    McCutchen, Payne, Loyd; the common golden thread to these AWE dreamers is not that they were wind turbine pros, or pilots, or even aerospace engineers, but geeky hobbyist aeromodellers. This critical legacy AWE DNA came with a hidden engineering-constraints trap, that aeromodellers are divinely favored in their passion by an "inverse" scaling regime where "small" is easy, but larger than ~3m wingspans, watch out. Payne had large aircraft development experience, so a keen intuitive sense of the scaling game, and patent 3987987 reflects early advanced scaling knoledge. Loyd then blithely reasoned about AWE in terms of a C5A wing (then the largest in service), but without even calculating critical gravity and inertial-mass factors. We see now how bright young Makani engineers went down the path Loyd suggested not fully prepared for the slog of testing scaling laws at full scale, even with unlimited capital.

    In aerospace, full scaling law understanding came rather slowly and is still not quite complete. Large bombers and transport aircraft were first developed without an advanced understanding of the scaling laws, with many setbacks. Hughes Spruce Goose was known to be somehow too big, but scaling discussion was not mature, contemporary critique was rather vague and personal. Boeing and Lockheed's jumbo jets marked the late maturity of basic scaling law understanding, but this theoretical knowledge proved tricky to apply to kites, with previously undocumented scaling laws hiding in-wait that we have slowly discovered apply to us. AWE is hard, even unworkable, if the developer runs afoul of the scaling traps, but almost easy if the scaling demands are understood and respected. Payne knew the paraglider wing was the right stuff, even it he could not explain the scaling laws as well as we can, almost 50 years later.



     

    Charybdis Monocopter Single Blade McCutchen das 2te

    ================================

    Charybdis, Charles McCutchen flying machine

    "Charybdis, 1952 design by Charles McCutchen.
    Model built in march 2013 by me, Camera by Lutz Näkel."
    ===============================

    My Charybdis / McCutchen wing



    =====================================
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25762 From: dave santos Date: 5/19/2019
    Subject: Ghost-like endorsement of Anchor Belay architecture, spooky noise ex
    Fixing a Payne typo- " the device tacks laterally when the wind is in a direction across the line between two delaying points." obviously BELAY was meant instead. What a ghostly lost-and-found endorsement of "anchor belay" (kPower) as a serious topological and operational AWES design factor. The typo probably was likely made by a well-meaning but nautical-nomenclature-ignorant reviewer.

    Noise note- How did Payne know about the airframe noise issue that snuck-up on some of our AWES ventures? The old-timers, in flying their balsa-and-tissue models tethered in DS mode, suddenly discovered a new high-speed tethered-flight regime, in good wind producing astounding flight around 200kmhr. Unexpectedly these planes buzzed and throbbed with excess energy radiating as sound. Previously, IC motor noise had masked aeroelastic noise. Did we not hear these sounds in Loyd's son's flying video? Kite noisemakers on the same principle are stone-age tech. Once again, the archaic roots of AWE are far deeper and richer than anybody suspected, except a few elderly geeks with the longest memories and widest experience.

    Mordant British Understatement- Payne: "To the extent that any analysis can ignore the attraction of gravity on the kite...". Most formal AWE analysis, starting with Loyd, unwisely ignores this fatal "attraction" factor Galileo first brought to engineering attention.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25763 From: dave santos Date: 5/19/2019
    Subject: Crosswind Tow Launch for Crosswind Power Arch
    Ever since powered aviation began using single fixed-direction runways, pilots have dealt with the added complexity of crosswind take-off and landing. Since AWE is ideally a crosswind flight process, its logical that our glider tow-launch model be applied to crosswind motion. The main problem historically has been aligning aircraft landing gear to the runway given a crab-angle and bank-angle. Soft kites don't need landing gear, so crosswind launch and land should be no problem, excepting the new complication that a single-tether tow crosswind allows the glider to be blown downwind by a weathervane force. Setting a two-tether arch (cableway) crosswind solves the problem, as the glider cannot drift downwind but instead holds a crosswind course-made-good. In fact, with a bit of breeze, the crosswind power kicks in promptly and take-off is almost instant.

    This the boldest kPower claim yet- USP3987987 fig1a,5,5a represents the key solution to current AWE need. The remaining challenges are details of "marionette" control, veering-belay, launching and landing, maintaining flight in lulls by motoring, stowing-in-a-sock, and motor-gen integration. kPower is the leader in solving these fig1a,5,5a issues, and confidently anticipates success. The next stage of AWE progress to scale crosswind power arch kite unit-cells by creating topologically protected kite network lattices on a vast scale.

    Who wants to partner in these methods? They should be developed as a large cooperative community. 

    Wubbo Lives!
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25764 From: dave santos Date: 5/19/2019
    Subject: "Marionette Fashion" Control (USP3987987)
    This not about dress-codes for puppets. Marionette methods turn out to be the essence of how Payne and McCutchen though about flight control. Close reading shows they also presumed human piloting (McCutchen himself in '58), ignoring flight automation under control-theory (their servos were piloted). They were both far ahead and behind the times. 

    We increasingly know puppet strings are cool because they act phononically, with interesting interpretations under thermodynamic Information Theory. While much of aviation has become purely FBW (fly by wire), we see in kite sports another thriving control lineage, the marionette methods, which in principle originate in the Stone Age playsail (or tent-gone-wild). The Wright Brothers flew four-line with handles. Marten Bondestam pioneered marionette shows in the sky. Power kite bar controls are the same sort of thing in advanced form.

    From USP3987987-

    "Additionally, the glider, autogyro and parachute kites involve no control problems whose solutions are not simple, well-known and frequently applied. Control can be applied by servomotors aboard the aircraft or in a marionette fashion via lines from the ground. A tethered one-bladed helicopter has already been controlled with no difficulty [see:"Aeromodeller", April, 1958, pg. 191] as has the motorless control line model as demonstrated in the reference cited herein. A mutually orbiting pair of aircraft has similarly been demonstrated to be stable in free flight. However, no trials have been made with such a system in a tethered mode. But, the individual aircraft are controllable with elevators and appear, should respond to the cyclic application of the elevators in a manner analogous to the helicopter rotor. As interest in self-erecting structures increases, it can be expected that control logic and even mechanisms will become cheaper, more efficient and of lighter weight."
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25765 From: dave santos Date: 5/19/2019
    Subject: airborne humidification with wet kites
    Cotton kites, for a ready example, could dip down in water and rise up to dry, repeating this cycle indefinitely. This avoids use of high-pressure pumps, hoses, and likely higher cost mass and complexity. This might be a LadderMill killer-app. Humidity introduced this way at one place can be harvested by AirHES somewhere downwind, as covered in previous posts. Open-AWE_IP-Cloud
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25766 From: dave santos Date: 5/19/2019
    Subject: Re: "Marionette Fashion" Control (USP3987987)
    Whoops, "control logic...will become cheaper, more efficient and of lighter weight" shows that they did have complex autopiloting in mind.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25767 From: dave santos Date: 5/19/2019
    Subject: South Asian Kite Video Golden Age is ON
    Just a few years ago, Asian kite-fighting traditions were a rare experience outside of the countries. There is more flying by expats, look for the aficionados in your area. A new way to enjoy the phenomenal flying is online videos. The Patang has become the videophone's ideal partner. All of sudden a huge viral wave of creative media has surged up. One could now watch Patang "Kite Game" videos all the time and never catch up. Suddenly, new narrative traditions have taken root as producers imitate and extend the tropes. There are amazing expert skills, how-to videos, kite market videos, festival videos, comedy videos, romance videos, all through the conceptual lens of the kite. Here is a vast Tako Kichi (kite madness) running riot into cyberspace. At its best, its incredible High Cinema, emerging from below. If only the dancing lines were better visible.

    This is fantastic domain art, lots to learn and ponder, and a wonderful invitation into the amazing cultures who have evolved the stick kite to its ultimate. Of thousands of kites over Austin in March, it was a small Asian kite that flew at the highest angle, and could have cut down everything else if it chose. The most advanced Western kites in indoor flying are carbon-spar versions of the Asian Fighter. The Western Golden Age of Kites flew mostly on crude but effective copying of Asian ideas. Its just as crucial to master the kite knowledge from the rooftops of South Asia as it is to read AWE papers. I saw secrets new to me that seven years working with WKM's Asian kite collection and invited flyers hardly prepared me for. This the heart of Kite Civilization, and we are the Barbarians.

    Notice details like how kites are inspected, how the reels are worked hard, how flyers fly when not fighting, just casually adapting the unstable kites the breezes. Notice the flyer in the top Guju video launch in still air and step-tow up into the fray, showing step-tow is far older and more advanced than Western HG/PG versions. Notice the obsession with flying line far beyond our elite but simplified choices. The paradox is that the kites themselves are so similar because of the intense natural selection pressure. The innovation and excellence is in the many tiny details. Wait will these folks do with AWE? They are likely to be better at it, to perfect it beyond our imagination.

    Not all these videos are equal. A good bet is to look for the latest, 2018-19, with high viewership,
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25768 From: dave santos Date: 5/20/2019
    Subject: Jupiter as AWE Atmospheric Similarity-Case
    Jupiter's global wind circulation is far easier to see than Earth's, so deeper quicker insights into complex planetary atmospheric dynamics are possible. Note the shear zones between opposed circulation bands, where the most Wilson-German upper-wind energy is in principle accessible. Earth's circulations are bit simpler and more chaotic overall, but this the same sort of weird resource we must understand and develop.

    This is actually NASA's amazing SpaceEngine simulation, very realistic and far more versatile than constrained real footage. If you like this, be sure to also see #1 and #3 clips.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25769 From: dougselsam Date: 5/22/2019
    Subject: Re: AWEC 2019 Call-for-Abstracts
    If someone thinks they are an AWE "researcher" then they should stick to their knitting and show some results.  No need to worry about some losers holding one more meaningless "conference".  If they had anything really going, they would not have time for such a "conference".  Instead of calling it a "conference", maybe just call it an "excuse-fest".  An excuse to spend more investor money, an excuse to do nothing for a few more days.  And it's even forming a wannabe excuse for daveS to go on for well over a decade without generating electrical power, not even a single kiloWatt.  daveS, how is a conference thousands of miles away stopping you from developing anything?  Why keep claiming to be conducting AWE "research" if there are never any results to share with the rest of us?  Why sit around and complain about other people wasting their time an ocean and continent away?  What's the difference?  How does it even affect you?  Why not hold another conference yourselves if you don't like someone else's conference?  You could then deliver talks on all the "advanced" theories you espouse in this present venue, which seems like your own personal blog most of the time, with you posting more than everyone else combined, several times over?  Why the hell would anyone fly across the ocean and spend money on hotel rooms, taxis, restaurants, for nothing, when you could be in your shop creating the future, from the results of your decade+ of "research"?  Is it possible that you are just frustrated that all that "research" has led nowhere so you would like to "distract" attention away from your own lack of results, by attempting to "re-direct" peoples' attention away from your decade+ of no results, to nit-picking details of a far-away "failure" conference?  You and your buddy Wayne sometimes bring up "Jesus" solving the AWE challenge.  Ever heard the expression "Render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar"? Let Rome have their fun spending all their diluted gold coins on their nothingness and get your fantastic breakthroughs from all your cutting edge research running.  If I didn't know better I would just assume you don't have any idea how to do AWE or you would have by now.  What the heck is your angle at this point, anyway?  Why not author a scientific paper or something if you can't actually generate any power?  Why not show the world some results from all that "research"?  How does anything happening in "Rome" affect you, here in "The New World"?  Do you think this latest attempt to change the subject and divert attention away from your own lack of results is anything but a transparent excuse for your own lack of having any success for the last decade?  The big theme for AWE seems to be "AWE - What's YOUR excuse"?  Maybe that should the the title of their conference.  At least it is, in my opinion, the unstated theme.  There is nothing left of AWE.  It has degenerated to nothing but endless excuses, that are repeated every year at the next worthless "conference".  If you don't like their conference, hold another one of your own.  Nobody is stopping you.  You don't need other peoples' "approval" to get anything going.  Just do it.  Or as Lois Lane once said to Clark Kent, "Don't just stand there, DO something!"  OK there, now someone besides you has posted on your "forum". Whew!

    ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25770 From: Santos Date: 5/22/2019
    Subject: Re: AWEC 2019 Call-for-Abstracts
    It's all cool, EU conferences aren't stopping anyone from progress, just as Doug affirms. I am thrilled by AWES research overall, including my own efforts.

    Not every developer can hold the peak power or endurance records; those feats stand for us all. The scholars who only work abstractly are just as needed as the field engineers.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25771 From: dougselsam Date: 5/22/2019
    Subject: Re: Canada's Diesel-dependent Communities as AWES Early-adopters
    Sure daveS, I'd be laughing pretty hard, as you suggest, below, but how many times can we laugh at the same old joke? 

    Wow, and you're still operating on the theme that you can solve the AWE challenge by saying people are "off-topic", wheres YOU diverge to any topic you want, anytime you want.  As the leading wind energy researcher in the world, I would think you would be too busy to even post on the internet, let alone worry if someone else's post was "off-topic".  I mean, how could someone as busy revolutionizing the wind energy industry as you supposedly are, have time for such trivia? 

    You know what would be funny?  if JoeF ever flagged YOU for "being off-topic", writing a "personal attack", saying something you can't "prove" is true - all the crap you do all day with utter abandon that nobody else is supposed to do, ever.  What a freakin' joke.

    Really daveS, "the power kite really IS headed to remote early adopter communities"?  Do you have cartoon sweat droplets squirting out of your face when you say that, due to extreme levels of sincerity?  Are you crying?  Pounding your fist for emphasis perhaps?  And we should take that seriously because the things you say are so often true?  Are you SURE this is not one more completely meaningless false statement about the future, from daveS?  Are you POSITIVE?  Boy who cried wolf and all?  

    When you write something stated so positively, I take it as an indication that it must definitely be wrong.  At this point, I see your words with an inherent minus (-) sign.  Whatever you say, the opposite must be true.  Like if you promote Minesto, that's all I need to see to know it won't go anywhere.  (Now they're "adjusting" the design.  Mmmm-hmmmm... Sounds like it's not working very well.)
     
    At this point, you've demonstrated a pretty dismal track record for predicting the future.  I place this latest statement right in there with your "Moab Monkey project", your "AWE-powered concert" that never happened, your network of energy kites above New York City with people climbing all over them, your spinning the generators of existing nuclear plants using large "power kites", your "Bose-Einetein" breakthrough claims, etc, etc., etc.  I'd say you've definitely set a record for claims of breakthroughs, versus actual results, in wind energy.  Wow, the craziest wannabe wind energy pundit ever, by orders of magnitude.  Meanwhile, "Nothing to see here folks, move along"...

    ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25772 From: Santos Date: 5/22/2019
    Subject: Re: Canada's Diesel-dependent Communities as AWES Early-adopters
    Doug, Ability to post on-topic is relative. You just don't want to be really bad at it, much less spitefully so. At least try.

    Just watch Canadian communities do am outstanding job pioneering AWE, in a friendly cheerful dynamic.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25773 From: benhaiemp Date: 5/22/2019
    Subject: Re: AWEC 2019 Call-for-Abstracts
    There would perhaps be serious progress when the power/space ratio will be taken into account. A 1-5 km tether cannot go with a tiny useful swept area.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25774 From: Santos Date: 5/22/2019
    Subject: Re: AWEC 2019 Call-for-Abstracts
    Pierre, 

    It odd if you also think AWE progress has been slower than reasonable. The original 2030 timeframe, to scale up effectively, looks on track to me. 

    You may have missed lots of past discussion about tether length to kite area and sweep, including at conferences and in papers. It's certainly never been ignored here.

    Please do bring the topic up at AWEC2019.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25775 From: dougselsam Date: 5/22/2019
    Subject: Re: AWEC 2019 Call-for-Abstracts
    Here we go again with the "shell-game" of deception in AWE.  "Thrilled with your own efforts"... Nice.  Anyone else thrilled with your efforts?  Besides JoeF?  Anyone showing results realized from those efforts?

    I'm still eagerly waiting to see any examples of all the metamaterial stuff you keep promoting.
    Hey I don;t need to see millions of units.  Just one unit would be a nice start.  Then you could add another once you have the first unit working, etc.  See how that works?  Crawl, walk, run, then worry about the Indy 500.

    "Developers", as the word is normally applied in wind energy, do not yet exist for AWE.  "Researcher" is what you said you were before, for like over a decade(?).  Now I guess we're to take this as a new shift in your narrative.  Today we're to forget all the previous "research" in light of still no power being generated, with the excuse that only one or two "developers" could ever hope to generate any power anyway.  (So your non-generation is someone else's fault eh?)  (I guess it's time for JoeF to weigh in and scold me for saying "no power" since there was that alleged "5 Watts" twelve years ago, right?  Because 5 Watts is not zero, right?  Well, close enough, in my book.  But hey, if that was a start, where are you now?)
    OK I'm reading between the lines.
    We can no longer consider you a "researcher"
    Nor should we consider you "a developer".
    Nor should we expect you to hold "power" or "endurance" "records", because if you DID generate any power it  would be a record, so it would be worth doing, but you have not, except for that "5 Watts".
    Because today is a new world.
    In today's new world, dave Santos is "a scholar".  Forget "researcher".
    "A scholar" who "works abstractly" (code for "this is an excuse for no results")
    And you've declared that, on the basis of this new world that just happened today, where you, the "scholar" are "just as needed" as a ummm, ummm... a field engineer!  yeah that's it "field engineer".  Now you have to be a "field engineer" to make any power.  And since you've spent 12 years of ongoing "research" with daily updates, annual well-attended AWE "encampments", developed multiple "alliances", espoused dozens of "theories", now, today, suddenly, out of the blue, you are not a "field engineer".  So without being a "field engineer", how did you build "Mothra"?  If you are only a "scholar" how did you have all these "encampments"?  Why did you keep calling yourself some version of "top researcher"?  I'm disappointed.  I was really looking forward to seeing some of your contraptions working.  You never know, if you don't try.  Now that you're "throwing in the towel", I guess I'll have to build some the notions you've been promoting myself, if I'm to ever see one, just like "laddermill".  Hope I get around to it.
    Wow, I think something just flew over...
    The Cuckoo's nest.



    ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25776 From: Santos Date: 5/22/2019
    Subject: Re: AWEC 2019 Call-for-Abstracts
    Doug, kPower holds the session endurance record (two weeks, kFarm) and many firsts ( first autonomous generation, 2007). Yes, that's thrilling.

    Nobody in AWE seems to please you, but that's Ok. Those who like AWE conferences enjoy progress as it comes. Let's hope you again find fresh mojo to share, at Conference or not, and we'll be thrilled for you.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25777 From: Santos Date: 5/22/2019
    Subject: kPower's on a roll...
    This topic is to correct Doug about kPower somehow not making progress. 

    The latest AWES rigs continue to advance the art of patents 30987987 fig1a, 5, 5a, and 4024409 fig2, as recorded in videos and postings here. Nothing but blue skies ahead for these methods.

    If Doug is also making progress, let him say so.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25778 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/22/2019
    Subject: Power
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_(physics) 

    Especially notice that an AWES may generate any form of power.
    AWE researchers wanting ultimately to serve the production of electricity may have good cause to produce power with AWES experiments without producing electricity during experiments. 
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25779 From: Santos Date: 5/22/2019
    Subject: Re: kPower's on a roll...
    Payne's preferred patent embodiments take due time and effort to refine and scale up. It's not just up to kPower, but key societal factors apply, like fantastic progress in paraglider-powerkite tech, but premature valley-of-death markets for early AWES. 

    kPower is not seeking marketing success yet, focused instead on it's thriving most-diverde scale AWE prototype program, and comprehensive domain research. AWE is a long game to us, an ultrathon, not a sprint. One must study and train long and hard in kites and aerospace, and enjoy it all, to keep keen the multi-decade adventure.

    Anyone's AWE success is kPower's direction, to stand with best practice wherever it emerges, as long as it's based on giant power kites. You read right; ten years after Makani down-selected, kPower is placing it's bet. No one disputes ship kites have already tested into the megawatt range. Nothing else has come close. kPower is hooked.

    Today's test session was typical- building flight time on the latest power-arch prototype in order to make the next iteration better. Everyone should experience this sort of deeply satisfying incremental daily progress. kPower is the most fun ever with rag and string.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25780 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/22/2019
    Subject: Re: Power
    Choice field of work done by an AWES is wide.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_(physics)  
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25781 From: dougselsam Date: 5/23/2019
    Subject: Re: Power
    JoeF: The same thing could be said of any source of power: any source of power could be used directly, without going through the common step of conversion to electricity.  For example, a hydro turbine could power a machine directly.  Old news.  VERY old.    As in hundreds of years old.  Who is doing it these days?  Ask yourself why.  Maybe you two should open your eyes and realize what year this is.  

    You two pointing out the availability of other options besides electricity (below) is, in this case, a typical attempt to dodge the main point, one more diversion in the shell-game of deception that now characterizes even the mere concept of AWE, which is all you deal with - mere concepts. Very vague concepts...

    What you have just said is nothing more than a predictable bulge of the crackpot water-balloon characterizing AWE, when squeezed.  It's the lowest-common-denominator bulge, used to dodge the fact of producing no electricity whatsoever, after 12 years of (daveS) claiming viable methods to spin the generators of coal and nuke plants.  If not electricity, show us the alternate form of power you are utilizing then.  Don't just say it.  Show us your working well-drilling rig, powered by a power-kite then, if that is what you are advocating.  Meanwhile, there's nothing easier than spinning a generator.  No better way to transmit that power long distances than a copper wire.  Your combined avoidance of such simple realities is why you two never get anything developed.  It's like you allow only the consideration of fantasies, never realities, and I believe it is to distract from the fact that, between the two of you, you can't some up with a single workable idea for AWE.  If you could, you would do it.

    Like English is the defacto language of aviation, electricity has long been the defacto form of translatable power in the modern world.  Why?  For now, it's what works.  That's why every single thing in your house, including the screen you are now looking at, is powered by electricity.  To deny simple facts like that is why you two are just self-imprisoned in an "I just want to win online arguments" fantasy-world of word-games, mostly limited to attempted changing of word definitions, only.

    While what you say is true, for example the land-sailing wheeled "sailboat" we saw at El Mirage Dry Lake last weekend, it's a curiosity, not a commonly-utilized form of transportation.
    The silly thing about people like you and daveS trying to think of ways to explain your avoidance of generating electricity is that generating electricity is perhaps the easiest use you could apply any raw source of power to.  Sure you could use a form of power to dig a hole directly, for example, and one could potentially use kites to lift heavy objects directly, to deliver packages, "provide shade" etc., but that doesn't work as an excuse for you two producing no power.  You also dig no holes, deliver no packages, lift and relocate no objects, so why mention "other uses"?  As though you two haven't said it a hundred times already but never done anything about it?  You guys argue with simple fact after simple fact all day long, on the level of little kids in Sunday school arguing about religion.  Everything has to be dumbed-down to the level of unrealistic "slogans" and hostile single-talking-point-oriented "position-taking".  We can only consider one thing at a time with you two, never look at the whole picture.  And that "one thing" must be dissected and re-explained every time, as though to a child unable to learn, ever.  It's like the only reality we can discuss is what you two can understand, which seems to be very little, one simplistic talking-point at a time.  One isolated thought at a time.  Never a bunch of inter-related thoughts coming together.  Excuses only, no workable systems, ever.

    The simple fact is, you and daveS do not develop wind energy solutions at all.  You both tout alternative uses for wind power, such as kites pulling boats, factories from centuries past, run by driveshafts powered by water-wheels, running leather belts that spin machinery, jetliners taking advantage of weather forecasts to save fuel, kites "providing shade", etc., etc., etc., but neither of you develops such technologies, so how do they form an excuse for not generating any electricity?  Heck I'd be happy and proud to see you two work out a way to use "power kites" to produce some "power", such as a workable drilling rig powered by a kite, but neither of you ever develop any such thing.  So how is "other uses" an excuse for not generating any power for you two?  Where's your oscillating-power-kite-driven-drill-pump, for example?

    The closest thing I can remember is your cohort almost getting himself killed by using a kite to tow a kayak in bad weather a few years ago.  Pulling a boat using wind - a very old concept, nothing new there.  So what?  You two want to substitute drama for development.

    Anyway, what you wrote is getting pretty redundant.  It seems that you two, together, would rather repeatedly "dumb-down" the conversation to a childish level of just repeating the same few weak "talking-points" in response to anyone pointing out your combined lack of progress developing any wind energy solutions.  You guys are not developing any solutions at all, so I would advise you both to stop with any pretense of actual design or engineering, and just admit your contribution is to run a forum, and try to do that impartially and not allow your emotions to cause you to reject simple facts, but rather embrace people who are fact-oriented and who provide factual input and realistic assessments.


    ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <joefaust333@...
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25782 From: dougselsam Date: 5/23/2019
    Subject: Re: kPower's on a roll...
    I think you're full of pretty-much 100% hot air (below), and have seen no recognizable progress of any kind from the both of you in 12 years.  I think you just like reading your own words in print on the internet.
    From day-one my impression has been you just like to fly kites and will not develop anything beyond "having fun", "flying kites".  Glad to see people having fun, but everything you wrote below amounts to a big pile of excuses. "kPower is hooked" - yes, hooked on not producing any usable power, pretending you are.  Hooked for over a decade so far, and now the latest dodge is pretending AWE can only be done decades into the future.  Funny how you keep adjusting the walls of your fantasy-world self-imposed prison of "no power", to suit your latest narrative of being helplessly unable to escape.


    ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25783 From: dave santos Date: 5/23/2019
    Subject: Euronews sees trend toward return of Ship Sails and Kites
    Based on need, broad ferment, and many signs-
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25784 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/23/2019
    Subject: Re: Euronews sees trend toward return of Ship Sails and Kites
    Tease clip from the article:: 
    "Kite ships can help reduce cost and emissions
    It is not just the traditional sail that is being investigated as an alternative to fossil fuel burning engines for cargo ships. Kite ships do exactly what it sounds like: they use a kite to help move the vessel. The downside of kite ships is they still need another motor for slow speed work and the kites only work when there is wind blowing in the right direction of travel. However, some of the largest bulk carriers are already using this technology to reduce costs and emissions."  Words: Alisdair Suttie
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25785 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/24/2019
    Subject: Re: Power
    Scene: Kite-system research center dedicated to describing and proving kite systems that generate power. Limited funds. Focus: Advance and prove kite-system arrangements for producing power. 
     
    One scheme for reaching center's targets: 
    == Consider avoiding spending time, focus, and funds on electrical generators, electrical safety concerns and arrangements. Leave such electrical systems for electrical engineers to integrate into advanced power-generating kite systems that the center offers. 
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25786 From: dougselsam Date: 5/24/2019
    Subject: Re: Euronews sees trend toward return of Ship Sails and Kites
    More "future-news"...
    Are you sure you don't mean "foment"?
    :)

    ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...