Digest

Translated Quote: "Bernd Ponick. "But the technology is not as absurd as one might think at first glance," says the holder of the chair of electrical machinery and propulsion systems at the Leibniz University of Hanover. "I am therefore relatively optimistic about the further development of these new technologies,""

Lass fliegen!

Sie sind ein Geheimtipp der Windenergienutzung – Drachensysteme, die Windstrom ernten. Bis dato gibt es noch kei...

To inform anyone new to AWE, AWE Conferences began in the US and were hoped to rotate with EU and other places. Instead, an inside group led by Joby-Makani created a secretive California corporation, AWEC, that hijacked open process. Protest occurred. AWEC quietly passed to EU via RichardR of Ampyx. Conferences then became dominated by Moritz and Roland, and never returned to US.

AWEC Corp dissolved with no public explanation, but the name stuck to the hijacked conferences. Ventures like kPower stopped attending. An implicit PR bias of EU AWE merit superiority took hold, with Makani as token Yank, but with feet-of-clay. Faced with greater burdens of travel and second class treatment, most non-EU players stay home. Conference demo tracks are also suppressed or exclusive, so no dark horse can steal the AWEC PR show from "leaders" with marginal platforms.

This is the known political history of AWE conferences, events that should have remained fully open science at locations worldwide. Expect a big bump upward when the decade of EU conference monopoly eases.

Fast reeling under variable tension is very demanding mechanically. From KiteGen to TUDelft to KPS, rapid destruction of kitelines is evident in photos. In some cases the fairlead design was clearly inadequate, as KPS's video revealed. I personally saw KiteGen's frazzled lines in 2011, after not many hours of testing. TUDelfts KitePower venture photos show uneven spooling despite a complex fairlead. It seems that tensile-phonon kite chaos gets past the fairlead stage to mess up level-wind spooling. A spool with variable high-tensions stored on the line will tend to cause small slips as tension is released.

Better load isolation of the spool is wanted. kPower long advocates heavy wearing sections of cable, belting, or chain; esp. for short-stoke pumping cycles. Our best dynamic reeling similarity cases are scientific deep-sea reeling from wave tossed ships. The marine-tech field is well ahead of AWES design in line-handling. kPower long advocates heavy wearing sections of cable, belting, or chain; esp. for short-stoke pumping cycles. There is also the severe challenge to reliably handle reel-in phase of a hot kiteplane like the AP3 at

And it is perhaps the same for the kite.

Could you be more specific to why these conferences are not useful to the general evolution of AWE? Its held at a university by academics. I find it hard to believe that people are excluded by non technical standards. Sounds to me like conspiracy theory.

If you want me to believe any of this you must be quite specific

Tallak,

The fact about AWEC2019 that all can agree is that the Chair and Committee do not follow Open Peer Review principles.

Complaints of AWE Conference insider control date to 2009-10, after HAWPcon09, when AWEC was incorporated in private by a small group led by Joby-Makani. JoebenB invited KiteLab to join, but KiteLab pulled out the moment it was learned AWEC was secretly lobbying the US Congress to privatize Airspace for AWE, in violation of "Freedom of the Seas" legal tradition. KiteLab was intent on the FAA policy now in place.

Ampyx was the main EU AWEC participant and RichardR and GuidoL became AWEC CEOs. They still don't answer questions about what happened to AWEC. Roland and Moritz should know, since they took over the AWEC brand. They don't say either what happened to AWEC, the US 501 c4 corporation.

Help us find out more about this hidden AWEC history,

daveS

Pierre is right, let's prove the facts. Let's also uncover the hidden story.

The Airborne Wind Energy Consortium's trail of evidence is well documented in Forum archives and by many other sources on the Net. Pierre at least knows that AWEC existed, if not the details.

It's up to the EU insiders to explain what happened to AWEC and how it's grip on AWE conferences was passed to Roland and Moritz.

So no proof, no hidden story.

The hidden story is what happened to AWEC?

Pierre, You have no proof there is no story.

We have to keep asking.

I will keep asking, even you don't.

Future generations will want to know all about AWE's early "stealth venture" era. What happened to AWEC, which once was dominant, is a bit of history. How EU insiders were involved needs clarification.

Any number multiplied by zero is still zero. No matter how many people with no solution gather together to commiserate, they still have no solution. Why do they gather together at an AWE conference? So someone will listen to them. So they can feel like they are "doing something". Preaching to the choir. Otherwise they would be at a power conference, a wind energy conference, a home show, a generator show, industrial infrastructure shows, etc. But they have no solution to present to anyone who would use it. So they burn lots of jet fuel to make themselves feel better about all the time and money being spent on zero solutions. If anyone hd a real solution why would they tell the competition all about it rather than just building it and selling it? Ten conferences have resulted in how many working solutions? The battle is to harness mother nature. Not to harness other "teams" of perpetual wind newbies unable to get anything workable working. And this forum, largely serving as a brainstorming platform for one person, should tell you that an unlimited number of storms in a brain may also lead nowhere. Zero times anything is still zero. Amazing to me that people just continue making the same mistakes over and over, focusing on irrelevant trivia. Trying to cover up having no solutions by turning the space into a blame-game gossip-fest. Why does anyone holding "a conference" matter to someone who has a solution? How does someone's "conference" slow anyone else down? It doesn't. It's all about excuses. Not to mention mass hypnosis. Rather than simply admit that he is having no success coming up with anything promising, he seeks to divert attention from his own zero promising results, to try to focus attention on other people being "bad". That way we can discuss something besides the reality of having no workable solutions. This entire situation is quite a comedy. Really hard to believe people can keep going on about this. Why not just pretend there are no conferences and build something that works? If you have any workable ideas at all, build even a flawed version that at least works sufficiently to show it's worth the effort to build a better one. If you have no workable ideas, why are you still pretending you do?

Why would Doug have attended HAWPcon09 with "zero", with "no solution"? He clearly thought the ST was worth sharing.

Correcting Doug that Riemann Sphere mathematics allows division by zero, so by his logic, as corrected, AWE conferences can sum greater than zero. Doug cannot prove either that future conferences can never make a worthy contribution.

What I have always laughably called "The Professor Crackpot Syndrome" seems healthy. The mythical "good professor" (not necessarily a real professor, it's just a silly name) seems to have a very few, endlessly repeated outlets for the pressure in his vast brain. One is to search the world for places so desperate for power, especially if they have some politically-correct-sounding "special need", that he can "use" them as one more excuse for never developing a truly workable solution, but instead to extend the working time for his ongoing narrative of a solution, without a physical manifestation of a solution. s you read below, "continuing a past theme" Yup, that's what I'm referring to. It is truly humorous how they just keep repeating the same wind energy mistakes over and over, as though they have no memory. Let's take Altaeros as an example. They had a device that was not sufficiently developed to be run long-term in a decent wind resource, but nonetheless decided to issue press-releases that went viral about a plan to power a remote village in Alaska, because it cost so much to get diesel fuel to such a remote site. But apparently they did not consider that that very remoteness would make it just as difficult and expensive to get their device to the remote location. Without a fully-developed device to even bring, they are relegated to testing a prototype in a location so remote that they find themselves "just giving up", (but shhh, they don't tell anyone" so self-described "domain expert" people like dave Santos can still go on for years in denial that the projects simply fizzled.) Hmmmm. Smart? MIT? Living in a complete fantasy world - that is the fate of AWE today. The "remote location" story is part of the never-ending crackpot syndrome in wind energy, and now with AWE, the "shell game" of deception, where they seek to create a story with enough peripheral details that investors will get lost in those details instead of thinking clearly. (Direct the audiences attention away from the real action.) The "remote location" meme is unconsciously designed to bypass the simple question of "is your wind energy "solution" better than simply putting up a regular wind turbine on a tower?" They never seem to ask THAT question. They just talk about the high cost of diesel a thousand miles from civilization. But they don't show that their wind energy solution is cheaper than a regular turbine, which is the real question. Or that it even works sufficiently to be useful, actually. The professor crackpot syndrome seems like a water-balloon that bulges out in a few predictable places when you squeeze it. These bulges seem to occur at "remote communities", "disaster relief", "containerized pop-up solutions", "downwind-traveling working surfaces", cloth working surfaces", "drag devices" and, since AWE and a certain person found the internet, "peripheral distractions" such as trying to turn an engineering challenge into an online gossip-fest blame-game, including why it is "bad" for some people to hold "a conference", listing arcane branches of science with no way to apply them, as though they are leading to solutions, but showing no way to utilize them, just acting like the person listing endless branches of science is thereby some sort of genius, just with no output in Watts. Some things never change, but they have definitely gotten worse. The Professor Crackpot Syndrome has found fertile ground in AWE, turning the nascent art into a cartoon of itself. The inmates running the asylum. But the asylum is an illusion, Anyone can develop an AWE system. It's between you and the wind, not you and the crackpots.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...

Correcting daveS that I said anything about dividing by zero. I said any number, multiplied by zero, is still zero. Too complicated for "advanced minds"...

Hey daveS: Is your brain smoking yet from being overheated? Still waiting for your "upcoming" future-news project with the "Moab Sky Monkeys". What happened to that? More empty bragging? Too busy typing on the internet trying to "enforce" the idea of being relevant to wind energy through meningless words and inaccurate statements of future actions? Is there any news in AWE besides the now-well-established pattern of false statements of future actions followed by silence?

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...

Pierre's best evidence of a hidden story behind AWEC conferences is on the AWEC2019 website. All eight conferences since 2009 are cited for history.

JoeF and I can attest that the first conference was openly planned with CristinaA and the whole AWE community. That summer, "stealth venture" (Makani's own term) insiders incorporated AWEC and made AWEC2010 planning a secretive process, with 800USD admission keeping small players away, while insiders handed out passes. Attending US gov reps only got PR favoring Google (Felker and Zoi jumped from gov to Makani paychecks).

When Wubbo stepped in to bring the 2011 conference to KULeuven, that was the last openly planned conference. Wubbo's death left no leadership for open AWE ethos in the elite EU ventures circle who saw conferences as corporate PR vehicles, driving vanity investment over engineering science. Restriction of open demo activity therefore became established.

Who and how are AWE conferences kept in the EU by the same tiny inside clique? Why the specific insiders' domination of the events? That is a major hidden story in AWE.

Yup there was a simple working solution operating without a human attendant, outside the window, while crackpots ignored it and instead talked of silly unworkable fantasies and "Jesus" solving AWE. I brought the simple solution that was built at the request of Popular Science Magazine the year before, in a couple of weeks, by one person, using no computers, no interns, no selfies, no funding. I thought it was important to show how easy AWE is, if there was going to be a first-ever conference within driving distance, considering I had long been the leading mind in the field, and the supporting rig was mobile, which is unusual in itself. I quickly found out the conference was not useful and found little on the way of fertile ground there. It felt like a waste of time to some extent, although I don't regret attending. I had hoped to engage fertile minds. I left thinking I had inadvertently passed through a mental hospital environment, full of crackpots who would never achieve anything useful. Zero times any number is still zero.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...

Go ahead and laugh, Doug, but you seem not to know how to post on-topic, which all of the folks you falsely claim incompetent long ago figured out.

The power kite really is headed to remote early-adopter communities, without problems with "professors". No doubt these beta-testers will make wonderful advances based on their own experiences an insights.

Thanks for the correction.

Multiplication and division by zero in Riemann Sphere math commute, so the conclusion stands.

Thanks for attending Doug. Good luck solving AWE by your preferred inventive process. At least you think Popular Science got AWE right, if not the academic community.

None of your nonsense has anything to do with AWE.

It's an odd game you've been playing for 12 years and counting.

Empty posturing on the internet.

Where would you be without the internet?

The same place you are with the internet - nowhere.

So maybe your own personal venue for publicly spewing your nonsense is not helping you achieve AWE.

Maybe it is stopping you. Maybe it is stopping everyone.

Maybe we should all take a break for a year and see what we come back with.

If all your limitless arcane theories have any validity, why can't you use any of them to make any power?

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...

AWE progresses a lot. There are more and more universities studying AWE, more and more conferences, so more and more planes to facilitate them. And planes are AWES, isn't-it? Companies are involved in numerous methods comprising reeling, yoyo, reel-out/in, pumping mode. The full success will be next year.

Doug, we both find the Net worthwhile. You would not be commenting on my posts if you thought you had something better to do. You have served well to promote careful elaboration of ideas you found objectionable. Of course most of us love our conferences and progress, despite the difficulties, while you despair. I really am amazed at how much we have learned on this Forum. If you have learned nothing of value, you should have gone somewhere better.

Here's hoping AWEC2019 is a great conference. Questions about AWE open-process and insider history will be answered in due time. The likeliest explanation for inside AWEC politics is that the insiders thought they had merit advantages that justified control over the global community. Now they must show true merit results, as the years have passed. This is not real conspiracy theory, just business-industrial psychology.

Bad news for scaling up Reeling AWES tech, that larger tethers inherently concentrate more working stress at the tether surface, given constant material-strength (that does not scale). Reeling methods particularly put enormous demands on kite line that are here predicted to worsen with scale. An ad absurdum proof is to imagine a kite line so thick its damaged just by dragging around.

We have noted this line scaling factor before, without specifically relating it to Reeling scaling prospects. Testing is needed to determine at just what power, lifecycle, and line size this scaling limit becomes dominant. On the other hand, larger lines have less aerodrag-per-mass, as cross-section area increases faster than circumference. Just don't abuse kite line by excessive mechanical wear, and it will last a very long time.

Hi Pierre: Just to let you know at lest one person got your joke:

"The full success will be next year."

Always "next year"...

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <pierre-benhaiem@...

Hi Doug,

All my post was a joke.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...

The correct view is that aerospace revolutions unfold in due time, typically a matter of decades.

Even a compromised conference culture is better than nothing. Conferences at their best are fantastic.

No joke.

I think my original comprehensive scientific analysis of several years ago was:

"Kite-reeling - hmmmph!"

(or UHMPEF would also work...)

Not to mention the scientific observation, long-documented and often carved into wood, in the strangest places:

"How could a million flies be wrong"?

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...

Doug,

Its not helpful to piss on methods with no specific insight.

Scaling Laws most critically limit the ST, so "hmmmph" should more apply. Despite careful review of specific weaknesses Reeling is shown more practical than ST shafting to tap wind at 500m.

Scaling Factor analysis stands as the better engineering practice here,

daveS

I think my original comprehensive scientific analysis of several years ago was:

"Kite-reeling - hmmmph!"

(or UHMPEF would also work...)

Not to mention the scientific observation, long-documented and often carved into wood, in the strangest places:

"How could a million flies be wrong"?

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...

Anyone who makes the effort gets great returns from conference participation. Engineering science is normally a very social process. Let Doug's anti-conference preference be his personal path. Good Luck to both paths.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...

Thanks to Ed for posting this video clip, Its an old kPower sketched-concept that Rod convincingly modelled a few years back, essentially Payne patent fig5 brought to life with a novel rigging solution. The maiden flight occurred in low wind and confirmed basic control. Future tests in high wind are expected to develop decent power. Imagine this rig at ship-kite scale for a MW class AWES. This is what progress in AWE looks like, its great fun as well-

https://youtu.be/KlDySgrWD1s

Marine Biologist Wallace Nichols is making quite a splash in the bio-science community* by a rhapsodic poetics of the same classic Oceanic Feeling we have

also identified in working and living with the Sky. This is medicine for those who only seem to feel frustration or greed in AWE.

Exploring Our Blue Mind: Dr. Wallace J. Nichols at TEDxSanDiego 2012

Neuroconservation -- your brain on nature: Wallace J. Nichols at TEDxSantaCruz

Neuroconservation -- your brain on nature: Wallace J. Nichols at TEDxSan...

Marine scientist and ocean advocate Wallace "J." Nichols explores the neuroscience of our brains on nature, and ...

* Blue Mind as presented at a UTexas Symposium yesterday.

New AWE players are popping up like Spring Flowers. There likely are dozens of emerging players we have not yet learned about, given how many are now found in general topic searches-

UP WIND Project

UP WIND - Innovative Project of the University of Porto on Airborne Wind Energy. Join our research group and tog...

Seeing Upwind Team publishing history from 2014, much in Porto academia, with emergence at AWEC2015. The large team currently featured on the website implies rapid recent growth momentum with a pending broadening in publications.

Selected Team Publications -

[14] Manuel C.R.M. Fernandes, Gonçalo B. Silva, Luís Tiago Paiva and Fernando A.C.C. Fontes. A Trajectory Controller for Kite Power Systems with Wind Gust Handling Capabilities, in Proceedings of the 15^th International Conference on Informatics in Control, Automation and Robotics (ICINCO), Porto, Portugal, July 2018.

[13] Gonçalo B. Silva. Airborne Wind Energy Systems: Modelling, Simulation and Trajectory Control, MSc thesis, MSc in Electrical and Computer Engineering, Univ. Porto 2018. (Supervisors: Fernando A.C.C. Fontes and Luís Tiago Paiva).

[12] Manuel C.R.M. Fernandes. Airborne Wind Energy Systems: Modelling, Simulation and Economic Analysis, MSc thesis, MSc in Electrical and Computer Engineering, Univ. Porto 2018. (Supervisors: Fernando A.C.C. Fontes and Luís Tiago Paiva).

[11] Luís Tiago Paiva and Fernando A.C.C. Fontes. Optimal Electric Power Generation with Underwater Kite Systems. Computing, pp. 1-17, July 2018. (available online springer.com)

[10] Luís Tiago Paiva and Fernando A.C.C. Fontes. Optimal Control Algorithms with Adaptive Time-Mesh Refinement for Kite Power Systems. Energies, 11(3):475, February 2018.

[09] Luís Tiago Paiva and Fernando A.C.C. Fontes. Optimal Control of Kite Power Systems: Mesh-Refinement Strategies. Energy Procedia, 136, pp. 302–307, October 2017.

[08] Fernando A.C.C. Fontes and Luís Tiago Paiva. Guaranteed Collision Avoidance in Multi–Kite Power Systems. AWEC'17 - 2017 Airborne Wind Energy Conference, Freiburg, Germany, October 2017. (see the talk awec2017.com)

[07] Luís Tiago Paiva and Fernando A.C.C. Fontes. Optimal Control of Underwater Kite Power Systems [ BEST PAPER AWARD], in Proceedings of the IEEE Conference Energy and Sustainability in Small Developing Economies - ES2DE, Funchal, Madeira, July 2017.

[06] Fernando A.C.C. Fontes and Luís Tiago Paiva. Optimization–based control of constrained nonlinear systems with continuous–time models: Adaptive time–grid refinement algorithms, in AIP Conference Proceedings, 1776 (1), pp. 090009_1-090009_5, October 2016.

[05] Luís Tiago Paiva and Fernando A.C.C. Fontes. Adaptive Time-Mesh Refinement in Optimal Control Problems with State Constraints, Discrete and Continuous Dynamical Systems, 35 (9), pp. 4553-4572, 2015.

[04] Ionela Prodan, Sorin Olaru, Fernando A.C.C. Fontes, Fernando Lobo Pereira, João Borges de Sousa, Cristina Stoica Maniu and Silviu-Iulian Niculescu. Predictive Control for Path-Following. From Trajectory Generation to the Parametrization of the Discrete Tracking Sequences, in Developments in Model-Based Optimization and Control, Springer International Publishing, pp. 161-181, 2015.

[03] Luís Tiago Paiva and Fernando A.C.C. Fontes. Mesh–Refinement Strategies for Optimal Control of Kite Power Systems. AWEC'15 - 2015 Airborne Wind Energy Conference, Delft, Netherlands, June 2015.

[02] Luís Tiago Paiva, C. Veiga Rodrigues and J.M.L.M. Palma. Determining wind turbine power curves based on operating conditions, Wind Energy, 17 (10), pp. 1563–1575, 2014.

[01] Tiago C.M. Maia. Optimal control of power kites for wind power production, MSc thesis, MSc in Electrical and Computer Engineering, Univ. Porto 2014. (Supervisors: Fernando A.C.C. Fontes and Luís Tiago Paiva).

New AWE players are popping up like Spring Flowers. There likely are dozens of emerging players we have not yet learned about, given how many are now found in general topic searches-

UP WIND Project

UP WIND - Innovative Project of the University of Porto on Airborne Wind Energy. Join our research group and tog...

From Louisiana Weekly yesterday-

"“Louisiana and Mississippi lag behind Texas because it’s much windier in West Texas,” Brian Snyder, LSU assistant professor of environmental sciences, said last week. “Louisiana may have wind power in the future, but it might not be from the sorts of wind systems used now.” Interest in airborne, wind-energy systems is growing. “They resemble giant kites, flying 300-plus meters in the air, where winds are steadier,” he said. “One day, Louisiana might use these kinds of designs. But that’s a long way off.”

For offshore wind power, the cost is a concern. “Installing wind turbines offshore is very expensive, and it has only made sense in a few places in the world, mostly in Europe, where wind speeds are high and electricity is expensive,” Snyder said. “In Louisiana, offshore wind speeds are modest at best, and we have much cheaper electricity.”...

“Until a technological breakthrough occurs, we won’t have wind power in the Gulf,” Snyder said. “We can dream that one-day wind turbines will be airborne over Lake Pontchartrain."

http://www.louisianaweekly.com/la-s-wind-projects-are-thwarted-while-texas-steams-ahead/

An unexpected delight of the maiden test is how the kite can fly away crosswind on demand, and then return back to hand for a kiss.

Here's Rod's old video simulation of the tested concept, which somehow managed to lose the third-line since-

simple kite agriculture application

simple kite application for generation or agricultural transportation. As normal you'd steer the bar handle rela...

https://youtu.be/KlDySgrWD1s

Its been noted here and there on this Forum that air density varies significantly by altitude, temperature, and pressure systems. For example, Makani's M600 testing probably avoided the hottest season in the Mojave Desert, and its planned Norwegian offshore testing is seen desirable not just due to close thermal operating margins of E-VTOL motor-gens, but because "typical" cold air is about 20% more dense than hot air, so flight is easier.

AWE analytical research has tended to rely on higher wind velocity with altitude, with lower pressure somewhat cancelled by lower temperature. Conventional aviation carefully factors temperature and altitude in take-off calculations. Low air density conditions are comparable to tether drag as an AWE a performance-limiting factor, but far less discussed. Once again, highest power-to-mass aircraft designs cope best with varied negative performance factors.

Here is a paper reviewing Air Density as a Wind Power factor-

Considering Air Density in Wind Power Production
Zeno Farkas 2011
Dept. of Physics of Complex Systems, E¨otvo¨s University, Hungary

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1103.2198.pdf

The kite should fly similarily, changing the air density should only change the lift of the kite linearily. All lift, drag and tether drag which are the most important forces for AWE (unless of course gravity plays a significant part) depend on air density to the power of one.

So a first order approximation could be x% decrease in air density gives you x% decrease in power output.

I believe the first factor to make power deviate from this approximation is probably gravity, because gravity will directly influence the speed of a kite flying upwards and thus affect a term that is to the power of two. So when taking gravity into account the decrease might be more than x% for the same situation.

The kite flyer definitely senses complex non-linear differences between hot and cold air. Dave Culp hated Texas hot air compared to the cool smoother air of the West Coast, but I find Texas air better training by more difficult conditions.

Reynolds Numbers vary, the denser air as a higher Re regime. Kite fabric itself varies in tension and stiffness with temperature. Hot air tends to correlate with greater convection, "thermals" for example, from uneven insolation of the surface.

Kites often react non-linearly to conditions. Formal chaos is "sensitive to initial conditions". The lesson of aviation is that a constant flying mass in hot air makes for more marginal flight, and that greater danger of crashing is as non-linear as it gets.

Those who intend active autonomous kite flight control are obviously not happy with introducing ever more critical variables, but surely air density counts about as much in kites as in conventional aviation, and the M600 is a relevant case.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...

I think my original comprehensive scientific analysis of several years ago was:

"Kite-reeling - hmmmph!"

(or UHMPEF would also work...)

Not to mention the scientific observation, long-documented and often carved into wood, in the strangest places:

"How could a million flies be wrong"?

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Looks like another "Hmmmph!"

"And now, for something completely different..."

How about "multiplying like flies"?

How can a million flies be wrong?

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...

Doug,

Good luck scaling up your ST to 500m2 altitude, despite my "insight" that its not practical. My down-select is the power-kite, which does scale up and is not as "crackpot".

daveS

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...

I think my original comprehensive scientific analysis of several years ago was:

"Kite-reeling - hmmmph!"

(or UHMPEF would also work...)

Not to mention the scientific observation, long-documented and often carved into wood, in the strangest places:

"How could a million flies be wrong"?

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...

The Porto team's grand heritage descends from Henry the Navigator and Magellan. Lets hope the best of them.

Looks like another "Hmmmph!"

"And now, for something completely different..."

How about "multiplying like flies"?

How can a million flies be wrong?

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...

Attention READER.

The construction of speaker in former post may be confusing.

The text of the body were words of DougS, not DaveS.

Doug, please be very careful to distinguish who the speaker is.

Consider erasing your post and construct a new post where the speaker (writer) is very clear to the READER.

Thank you.

Doug, you have super spent negative attacking over DaveS. Your globs of negative attack is off the topics where you place such text.

Consider studying all that DaveS has done and is doing in AWE. Repeating the false negative "nothing" smear is very against against what this forum is about. You wrote your opinion; please do not spam repeat such whiling spoiling the flow of technical topics. His positive works are on record. Discounting the record while saying untrue things is super poor form.

The ST was simply not the only significant demonstrated system at HAWP '09. Others and DaveS demonstrated AWE in various ways.

Dear daveS:

Using one of your favorite terms, "downselect" won't save you.

You have nothing to offer. Why keep pretending? Why keep posting? Why?

Seems like it turns out you don't even WANT to develop anything.

What is your point, after 12 years of nothing?

"downselect"... "flyoff"... What the heck are you even talking about?

What are you averaging, like two posts per hour? Day after day after day?

How many posts by now, 10,000? More? With nothing to show for any of it except so many statements and predictions that turned out to be wrong? Is anyone still even listening?

Give it up, dude.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...

I think my original comprehensive scientific analysis of several years ago was:

"Kite-reeling - hmmmph!"

(or UHMPEF would also work...)

Not to mention the scientific observation, long-documented and often carved into wood, in the strangest places:

"How could a million flies be wrong"?

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Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25687	From: dave santos	Date: 5/8/2019
Subject: German Conventional Wind Experts see AWE Relatively Optimistically

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25688	From: dave santos	Date: 5/8/2019
Subject: AWEC 2019 Call-for-Abstracts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25689	From: Santos	Date: 5/9/2019
Subject: Re: AWEC 2019 Call-for-Abstracts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25690	From: dave santos	Date: 5/9/2019
Subject: Assessment of Reeling Prototypes by Line Condition

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25691	From: benhaiemp	Date: 5/9/2019
Subject: Re: Assessment of Reeling Prototypes by Line Condition

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25692	From: tallakt	Date: 5/9/2019
Subject: Re: AWEC 2019 Call-for-Abstracts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25693	From: Santos	Date: 5/10/2019
Subject: Re: AWEC 2019 Call-for-Abstracts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25694	From: benhaiemp	Date: 5/10/2019
Subject: Re: AWEC 2019 Call-for-Abstracts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25695	From: Santos	Date: 5/10/2019
Subject: Re: AWEC 2019 Call-for-Abstracts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25696	From: benhaiemp	Date: 5/10/2019
Subject: Re: AWEC 2019 Call-for-Abstracts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25697	From: Santos	Date: 5/10/2019
Subject: Re: AWEC 2019 Call-for-Abstracts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25698	From: benhaiemp	Date: 5/10/2019
Subject: Re: AWEC 2019 Call-for-Abstracts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25699	From: Santos	Date: 5/10/2019
Subject: Re: AWEC 2019 Call-for-Abstracts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25700	From: dougselsam	Date: 5/11/2019
Subject: Re: AWEC 2019 Call-for-Abstracts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25701	From: Santos	Date: 5/11/2019
Subject: Re: AWEC 2019 Call-for-Abstracts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25702	From: Santos	Date: 5/11/2019
Subject: Re: AWEC 2019 Call-for-Abstracts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25703	From: dougselsam	Date: 5/11/2019
Subject: Re: Canada's Diesel-dependent Communities as AWES Early-adopters

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25704	From: dougselsam	Date: 5/11/2019
Subject: Re: AWEC 2019 Call-for-Abstracts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25705	From: Santos	Date: 5/11/2019
Subject: Re: AWEC 2019 Call-for-Abstracts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25706	From: dougselsam	Date: 5/11/2019
Subject: Re: AWEC 2019 Call-for-Abstracts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25707	From: Santos	Date: 5/11/2019
Subject: Re: Canada's Diesel-dependent Communities as AWES Early-adopters

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25708	From: Santos	Date: 5/11/2019
Subject: Re: AWEC 2019 Call-for-Abstracts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25709	From: Santos	Date: 5/11/2019
Subject: Re: AWEC 2019 Call-for-Abstracts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25710	From: dougselsam	Date: 5/11/2019
Subject: Re: AWEC 2019 Call-for-Abstracts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25711	From: benhaiemp	Date: 5/11/2019
Subject: Re: AWEC 2019 Call-for-Abstracts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25712	From: dave santos	Date: 5/11/2019
Subject: Re: AWEC 2019 Call-for-Abstracts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25713	From: dave santos	Date: 5/11/2019
Subject: Reeling Tether-Wear Scaling-Factor

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25714	From: dougselsam	Date: 5/13/2019
Subject: Re: AWEC 2019 Call-for-Abstracts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25715	From: benhaiemp	Date: 5/13/2019
Subject: Re: AWEC 2019 Call-for-Abstracts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25716	From: dougselsam	Date: 5/13/2019
Subject: Re: AWEC 2019 Call-for-Abstracts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25717	From: Santos	Date: 5/13/2019
Subject: Re: AWEC 2019 Call-for-Abstracts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25718	From: dougselsam	Date: 5/13/2019
Subject: Re: Reeling Tether-Wear Scaling-Factor

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25719	From: dougselsam	Date: 5/13/2019
Subject: Re: AWEC 2019 Call-for-Abstracts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25720	From: dave santos	Date: 5/13/2019
Subject: Re: Reeling Tether-Wear Scaling-Factor

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25721	From: dave santos	Date: 5/13/2019
Subject: Re: AWEC 2019 Call-for-Abstracts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25722	From: dave santos	Date: 5/13/2019
Subject: Maiden Flight of Crosswind Power Arch

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25723	From: dave santos	Date: 5/14/2019
Subject: Blue Mind AWE- California Dreaming, the new "Right Stuff"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25724	From: dave santos	Date: 5/14/2019
Subject: Upwind Team of Porto

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25725	From: dave santos	Date: 5/14/2019
Subject: Re: Upwind Team of Porto

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25726	From: dave santos	Date: 5/14/2019
Subject: Louisiana dreams of AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25727	From: dave santos	Date: 5/14/2019
Subject: Re: Maiden Flight of Crosswind Power Arch

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25728	From: dave santos	Date: 5/15/2019
Subject: Air Density Variance and AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25729	From: tallakt	Date: 5/15/2019
Subject: Re: Air Density Variance and AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25730	From: dave santos	Date: 5/16/2019
Subject: Re: Air Density Variance and AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25731	From: dougselsam	Date: 5/16/2019
Subject: Re: Reeling Tether-Wear Scaling-Factor

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25732	From: dougselsam	Date: 5/16/2019
Subject: Re: Upwind Team of Porto

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25733	From: dave santos	Date: 5/16/2019
Subject: Re: Reeling Tether-Wear Scaling-Factor

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25734	From: dave santos	Date: 5/16/2019
Subject: Re: Upwind Team of Porto

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25735	From: joe_f_90032	Date: 5/16/2019
Subject: Re: Reeling Tether-Wear Scaling-Factor

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25736	From: dougselsam	Date: 5/16/2019
Subject: Re: Reeling Tether-Wear Scaling-Factor

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25687	From: dave santos	Date: 5/8/2019
Subject: German Conventional Wind Experts see AWE Relatively Optimistically

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25688	From: dave santos	Date: 5/8/2019
Subject: AWEC 2019 Call-for-Abstracts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25689	From: Santos	Date: 5/9/2019
Subject: Re: AWEC 2019 Call-for-Abstracts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 25690	From: dave santos	Date: 5/9/2019
Subject: Assessment of Reeling Prototypes by Line Condition

Lass fliegen!

Call for Abstracts

Open peer review

Neuroconservation -- your brain on nature: Wallace J. Nichols at TEDxSan...

UP WIND Project

Selected Team Publications -

UP WIND Project

simple kite agriculture application