Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                          AWES 25537 to 25586 Page 402 of 440.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25537 From: Santos Date: 4/15/2019
Subject: Re: Cool Bol and Playsail

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25538 From: dave santos Date: 4/15/2019
Subject: Lessons of Rocket Science: Who is the father (and/or mother) of AWE?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25539 From: dave santos Date: 4/15/2019
Subject: WingSurfing latest old wing-sport variant

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25540 From: dougselsam Date: 4/16/2019
Subject: Re: Cool Bol and Playsail

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25541 From: dave santos Date: 4/16/2019
Subject: Re: Cool Bol and Playsail

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25542 From: dougselsam Date: 4/16/2019
Subject: Re: Lessons of Rocket Science: Who is the father (and/or mother) of

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25543 From: dave santos Date: 4/16/2019
Subject: Massimo takes on the interlopers

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25544 From: dave santos Date: 4/16/2019
Subject: Mass of a Kite Phonon?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25545 From: dave santos Date: 4/16/2019
Subject: Ampyx AP3 Catapult Launch?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25546 From: dave santos Date: 4/16/2019
Subject: Re: Lessons of Rocket Science: Who is the father (and/or mother) of

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25547 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/16/2019
Subject: Re: Lessons of Rocket Science: Who is the father (and/or mother) of

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25548 From: dave santos Date: 4/16/2019
Subject: OL SS Turn Rate Testing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25549 From: dave santos Date: 4/16/2019
Subject: Re: Lessons of Rocket Science: Who is the father (and/or mother) of

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25550 From: dougselsam Date: 4/16/2019
Subject: Re: Lessons of Rocket Science: Who is the father (and/or mother) of

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25551 From: dave santos Date: 4/16/2019
Subject: Why highly developed electrical grids supress demand for small stand

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25552 From: Rod Read Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: Re: Cool Bol and Playsail

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25553 From: dougselsam Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: Re: Why highly developed electrical grids supress demand for small s

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25554 From: dave santos Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: Re: Cool Bol and Playsail

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25555 From: dougselsam Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: Re: Cool Bol and Playsail

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25556 From: dave santos Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: Re: Lessons of Rocket Science: Who is the father (and/or mother) of

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25557 From: dave santos Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: Feel the Energy (kPower technical video recommendation)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25558 From: dougselsam Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: Re: Cool Bol and Playsail

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25559 From: dave santos Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: Re: Cool Bol and Playsail

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25560 From: dave santos Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: Latest Minesto News

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25561 From: dave santos Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: Re: Why highly developed electrical grids supress demand for small s

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25562 From: dave santos Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: Isotropic v. Planar Kite Networks

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25563 From: dave santos Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: Ampyx's "Roadmap"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25564 From: dougselsam Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: Re: Cool Bol and Playsail

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25565 From: dave santos Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: Re: Cool Bol and Playsail

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25566 From: dave santos Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: First Anarctica Crossing with Kites (1989-90)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25567 From: dave santos Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: Japanese KITE project (space tether case)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25568 From: dave santos Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: Re: Japanese KITE project (space tether case)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25569 From: dave santos Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: Lessons of the Kite Death Loop

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25570 From: dave santos Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: New hybrid SS Power Kite Class

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25571 From: dave santos Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: Best Tarp Kite Yet?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25572 From: benhaiemp Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: Re: Best Tarp Kite Yet?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25573 From: dave santos Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: Successful SpiderMill Transmission Bench-Testing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25574 From: dave santos Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: Progress in AWE eclipsing conventional wind power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25575 From: dave santos Date: 4/18/2019
Subject: Re: Best Tarp Kite Yet?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25576 From: benhaiemp Date: 4/18/2019
Subject: Re: Best Tarp Kite Yet?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25577 From: dave santos Date: 4/18/2019
Subject: Current Status of Reeling AWES architecture

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25578 From: dave santos Date: 4/18/2019
Subject: Re: Best Tarp Kite Yet?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25579 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/18/2019
Subject: Re: Japanese KITE project (space tether case)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25580 From: dave santos Date: 4/18/2019
Subject: Re: Japanese KITE project (space tether case)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25581 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/18/2019
Subject: Re: Best Tarp Kite Yet?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25582 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/18/2019
Subject: Re: Best Tarp Kite Yet?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25583 From: dave santos Date: 4/18/2019
Subject: "Kite Jihad"???

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25584 From: dave santos Date: 4/18/2019
Subject: AWE saving ~250,000 barrels of oil daily; just a start.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25585 From: dave santos Date: 4/18/2019
Subject: Who wrote what about Altaeros in 2011 AWES Forum

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25586 From: dave santos Date: 4/18/2019
Subject: Phonon Physics of Flight as shown with paper planes



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25537 From: Santos Date: 4/15/2019
Subject: Re: Cool Bol and Playsail
It was bragged that the Japanese Power Plant was "tiny". Yes, it was "a new low", but also a newborn baby case. First demo of clean power from AWE. kFarm pushed a few Whr into the Texas grid, another tiny newborn.

Don't be upset over those who enjoy making AWE at small scale, like the first cell-phone call public demo. KiteSat demoed in Germany, at AWEC and on TV, and demoed many times in US, 5 solid Watts of AWE, that's far more than the tiny power-plant does.

I am scaling up as COTS power kite availability and new investment allow. KiteShip and other world experts trained me in giant kites, so you have reason to hope. It's the giant driveshaft that has no hope.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25538 From: dave santos Date: 4/15/2019
Subject: Lessons of Rocket Science: Who is the father (and/or mother) of AWE?
Tsiolkovsky is rightly honored as the "father of rocket science" by those who later brought his ideas to life, folks like Oberth, von Braun, Goddard. In AWE, we can't quite say just who is father, there are many (Cristina Archer is the mother of AWE, at least). 

Eztler was a first father, but did not work out any key art. Pocock was a kite sorcerer, but did not quite figure out he could drive Faraday's novel generator. Oberth had a workable AWES concept in the sixties, a flygen HAWT under an aerostat. Payne and McCutchen's patent, I believe, finally got AWE right, and Loyd built on that, and Pocock's still brilliant kite art. 

Then there are fathers like Rogallo, Jalbert, Barrish, Culp, Lynn, and more, who made the power kite what it is. And yet the field remains open for more mothers and fathers to make key contributions. Just as Tsiolkovsky did not have to make rockets, AWE will honor those like Payne, who did not make AWE, but possibly first showed the best way.

Ultimately, the parents of AWE will be a very long list. Who of our time is counted with those above? The flood of new folks, most we do not even know yet, most barely getting started, will surely outdo everything before, except for the original golden inventive leaps. How AWE finally flourishes will point right back to conceptual Tsiolkovskies.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25539 From: dave santos Date: 4/15/2019
Subject: WingSurfing latest old wing-sport variant
We have seen and played with hand-held wings for decades, but Naish and others are reviving the device. These are not suitable as kites, nor do they really improve on kites, but worth trying like every other wind sport variant. In Austin, in the early '90s, we made similar wings for skateboarding out of extruded PE with a wood spar handle. Anders Ansar's wind skating was the inspiration, and Anders himself was just updating traditional skating wings.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25540 From: dougselsam Date: 4/16/2019
Subject: Re: Cool Bol and Playsail
daveS you're lost in a land of self-delusion, patting yourself on the back for doing pretty much nothing.  It is indeed a tribute to the old-school watchmakers that they were able to craft a simple mechanism using a rotating weight to generate usable power in tiny amounts.  The fact that this mechanism can be mounted on anything that moves - your arm, your leg, a wheel, a kite - anything that wiggles - is a testament to the watchmakers, not to your "use" of their mechanism in a shell-game of promoting your supposed mastery of AWE. 
"Don't look over here where we observe a self-winding watch operate as normal, look over there, where we have singlehandedly repowered an entire "Japanese powerplant"!"  Whoa, lookout Fukushima! 
All that happened was they were smart enough to make a mechanism that uses any movement, so you, even with no control whatsoever over kite movement, could use their device.  So could anyone.  A walker.  A jogger.  Someone moving their arm.  Their leg.  A motor vehicle.  A mouse.  A wiggling tree branch.  Your big toe.  Anything.  No brains required. 
Translating the same concept to larger sizes, you'd find yourself trying to explain why keeping a weight elevated, in addition to providing cranking power, was better than just providing cranking power to groundgen station without being required to keep an otherwise useless weight airborne.  All the weight does is make the whole thing more difficult for AWE.  So, yes the watchmakers were clever.  Doesn't seem to be rubbing off on you.  You would want a more dedicated mechanism that did not require suspending extra weight for no reason.  By the way, don't you think you've gone "off-topic"?  Why don't you and Joe flag yourselves when you go "off-topic"?  Or just flog yourselves, to convince "Jesus" to solve AWE 4 u.


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25541 From: dave santos Date: 4/16/2019
Subject: Re: Cool Bol and Playsail
Doug, the concept was to first show continuous regulated output by any AWES, and do it in style with a FlipWing and a COTS plant. Even you admit it works exactly as intended, as a unique AWE demo. The tiny part is how "newborn babies" roll.

One cannot do such cool AWE feats if they cannot appreciate play-sails, bols, and everything else flying. That's what this topic is for, those who love it. JoeF and everyone else is better than you at keeping on-topic, in spirit and letter. Good Luck with willful disdain for everyone else's joy; may it help you invent something better. Otherwise, your despair is a losing attitude, no "right stuff".





 

daveS you're lost in a land of self-delusion, patting yourself on the back for doing pretty much nothing.  It is indeed a tribute to the old-school watchmakers that they were able to craft a simple mechanism using a rotating weight to generate usable power in tiny amounts.  The fact that this mechanism can be mounted on anything that moves - your arm, your leg, a wheel, a kite - anything that wiggles - is a testament to the watchmakers, not to your "use" of their mechanism in a shell-game of promoting your supposed mastery of AWE. 
"Don't look over here where we observe a self-winding watch operate as normal, look over there, where we have singlehandedly repowered an entire "Japanese powerplant"!"  Whoa, lookout Fukushima! 
All that happened was they were smart enough to make a mechanism that uses any movement, so you, even with no control whatsoever over kite movement, could use their device.  So could anyone.  A walker.  A jogger.  Someone moving their arm.  Their leg.  A motor vehicle.  A mouse.  A wiggling tree branch.  Your big toe.  Anything.  No brains required. 
Translating the same concept to larger sizes, you'd find yourself trying to explain why keeping a weight elevated, in addition to providing cranking power, was better than just providing cranking power to groundgen station without being required to keep an otherwise useless weight airborne.  All the weight does is make the whole thing more difficult for AWE.  So, yes the watchmakers were clever.  Doesn't seem to be rubbing off on you.  You would want a more dedicated mechanism that did not require suspending extra weight for no reason.  By the way, don't you think you've gone "off-topic"?  Why don't you and Joe flag yourselves when you go "off-topic"?  Or just flog yourselves, to convince "Jesus" to solve AWE 4 u.


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25542 From: dougselsam Date: 4/16/2019
Subject: Re: Lessons of Rocket Science: Who is the father (and/or mother) of
Ah, another great diversion.  Today, it's the beginnings of rocketry.  Another attempt at undeserved fame.
This is daveS' new theme of why he "will be" (always in the future) responsible ("rightly honored") for all progress in AWE, while simultaneously (yesterday) just having officially giving up on ever making any working demo.  See, if "Tsiolovsky" can be "rightly honored" as "the father of rocket science" without ever building  rocket, then daveS "will be" "rightly honored" as "The father of AWE".  And he's got Cristina cast as "The Mother".  (By the way I was the first to use the term "denmother" for Cristina's role, meaning the "rest of the kids" were on the level of cub-scouts needing adult supervision.)  Part of the pantheon of "kite gods" etc., in the mind of daveS, as he ascends to his rightful place in it.  Which constellation is that?  Oh it's the kite-God, dave Santos, patron saint of AWE.  But he never built an AWE system!  He refused!  On the basis of... of.. of, well something.  I guess.  All those "encampments" - for nought?...  Sure daveS, just keep changing the subject (honoring people for rocketry), and nobody will notice the shell-game.  Wind energy is all about you, the mustachioed ringmaster, as you imagine...  Even if you have nothing to do with it, it "will be" all about you...  This is great entertainment, isn't it?


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25543 From: dave santos Date: 4/16/2019
Subject: Massimo takes on the interlopers
Willingness to engage in public AWE debate is a refreshing contrast to major parties who only avoid technical debate. One may not agree with Massimo on many points, but he's out there making his case. 

The missing ingredient is third-party validated flight testing of all modes for many cycles and long durations. Where is the KiteGen super-kite in the sky? Words mean little by comparison. Comparable and larger ship kites are COTS. If KiteGen's patents are being infringed by anyone, why are they not suing? 

The WoW interpretation is that Massimo's holding forth is like Neapolitan Melodrama (WoW actually trained me by assigning my attendance to a typical Neapolitan Melodrama, in Rome), or Kabuki Theatre (my metaphor).

"Abstract:

We have observed a large number of scientific and patent publications focused on high-altitude wind exploitation, reflecting a truly exponential trend. KiteGen, as the first global entity to produce energy using this revolutionary method, finds itself in a difficult position following the massive amount of material produced by third parties and the consequential technical inaccuracies desperately needing rectification. The latter has a detrimental effect on the potential acceptance of the concept and occasionally leads to technological nonsense, weakening the potential for widespread common awareness of this powerful technology that has the potential to enable global transition from fossil fuel energy sources. We have observed that, due to the absolute originality and novelty of this concept, there is a lack of qualified peer review, and blatant errors have been propagated and transferred, undisturbed, from one poorly informed publication to another, with no-one critically re-analyzing their stratified assumptions. We have also observed that these same errors have confused the informal competition that has grown over time around our project, among what seems a hundred actors, leading to the copious physical development of low TPL [sic] and/or unfeasible or extremely deficient alternative architectures."
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25544 From: dave santos Date: 4/16/2019
Subject: Mass of a Kite Phonon?
Takes the form-

m=E/c 2

Where c is the speed-of-sound in air or polymer

cool
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25545 From: dave santos Date: 4/16/2019
Subject: Ampyx AP3 Catapult Launch?
The launching and landing challenges of Ampyx's AP3 kiteplane are formidable. Can such a large airframe really take years of pounding of catapult launches and plopping down on a small platform? No, early lifecycle mishap to the delicate composite structure is all too likely. The web page has confusing numbers, like a 25m/s "operational windspeed". Is that a minimum airspeed perhaps? As a nominal wind speed, its far too much.

This is another venture whose basic architecture was frozen early, and now garners every manner of design patch, like the ugly shrouded-fans on the wing tips. These specific flaws do not suggest all AWE is equally challenged, only that this architecture has particular issues. We are seeing a special mismatch with hot kiteplane flight in short-tether phases, where practical turn patterns are large in relation to available tether scope.

The 80m/s "max airspeed" velocity is a concern, as the winch may have to take up slack line even faster to keep up with line sag, in certain phases. What a powerful catapult will be needed to reliably initiate flight. High TRL for this class of AWES seems decades away, when avionics and graphene structure mature.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25546 From: dave santos Date: 4/16/2019
Subject: Re: Lessons of Rocket Science: Who is the father (and/or mother) of
Doug, I did not mention my own work here. Yes, rocket science is not your sort of thing, but Oberth and Wubbo crossed the rocket-AWE frontier.

I forgot to cite Kaye Busing, founder of the World Kite Museum as a second mother (esp. for arch kite architectures)



 

Ah, another great diversion.  Today, it's the beginnings of rocketry.  Another attempt at undeserved fame.
This is daveS' new theme of why he "will be" (always in the future) responsible ("rightly honored") for all progress in AWE, while simultaneously (yesterday) just having officially giving up on ever making any working demo.  See, if "Tsiolovsky" can be "rightly honored" as "the father of rocket science" without ever building  rocket, then daveS "will be" "rightly honored" as "The father of AWE".  And he's got Cristina cast as "The Mother".  (By the way I was the first to use the term "denmother" for Cristina's role, meaning the "rest of the kids" were on the level of cub-scouts needing adult supervision.)  Part of the pantheon of "kite gods" etc., in the mind of daveS, as he ascends to his rightful place in it.  Which constellation is that?  Oh it's the kite-God, dave Santos, patron saint of AWE.  But he never built an AWE system!  He refused!  On the basis of... of.. of, well something.  I guess.  All those "encampments" - for nought?...  Sure daveS, just keep changing the subject (honoring people for rocketry), and nobody will notice the shell-game.  Wind energy is all about you, the mustachioed ringmaster, as you imagine...  Even if you have nothing to do with it, it "will be" all about you...  This is great entertainment, isn't it?


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25547 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/16/2019
Subject: Re: Lessons of Rocket Science: Who is the father (and/or mother) of
1935-04-26
Application filed by ALOYS VAN GRIES DR ING, Dr-Ing Aloys Van Gries

is to be in the running...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25548 From: dave santos Date: 4/16/2019
Subject: OL SS Turn Rate Testing
Texas AWE Encampment season has begun. The winds are wilder than ever.

Flew kPower's 2m2 OL (handmade by Culp himself) today, in gusty winds, to characterize turn-rate. Consider it anecdotally confirmed that this most-elemental power kite of all turns quite smartly with power, while a 2m2 high AR bow foil needs far more space to turn with power, and wants to turn slower, over a greater window angle, to fly its natural figure 8s.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25549 From: dave santos Date: 4/16/2019
Subject: Re: Lessons of Rocket Science: Who is the father (and/or mother) of
Yes, Van Gries has Oberth beat by thirty years.



 

1935-04-26
Application filed by ALOYS VAN GRIES DR ING, Dr-Ing Aloys Van Gries

is to be in the running...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25550 From: dougselsam Date: 4/16/2019
Subject: Re: Lessons of Rocket Science: Who is the father (and/or mother) of
My best friends are rocket scientists...

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

Ah, another great diversion.  Today, it's the beginnings of rocketry.  Another attempt at undeserved fame.
This is daveS' new theme of why he "will be" (always in the future) responsible ("rightly honored") for all progress in AWE, while simultaneously (yesterday) just having officially giving up on ever making any working demo.  See, if "Tsiolovsky" can be "rightly honored" as "the father of rocket science" without ever building  rocket, then daveS "will be" "rightly honored" as "The father of AWE".  And he's got Cristina cast as "The Mother".  (By the way I was the first to use the term "denmother" for Cristina's role, meaning the "rest of the kids" were on the level of cub-scouts needing adult supervision.)  Part of the pantheon of "kite gods" etc., in the mind of daveS, as he ascends to his rightful place in it.  Which constellation is that?  Oh it's the kite-God, dave Santos, patron saint of AWE.  But he never built an AWE system!  He refused!  On the basis of... of.. of, well something.  I guess.  All those "encampments" - for nought?...  Sure daveS, just keep changing the subject (honoring people for rocketry), and nobody will notice the shell-game.  Wind energy is all about you, the mustachioed ringmaster, as you imagine...  Even if you have nothing to do with it, it "will be" all about you...  This is great entertainment, isn't it?


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@... #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534ad p { margin:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534ygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534ygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534hd { margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534ygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534ad { margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534actions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534activity { background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534activity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534activity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534activity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534activity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534activity span .ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534underline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 .ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534attach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 .ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534attach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 .ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534attach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 .ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534attach label { display:block;margin-bottom:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 .ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534attach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 blockquote { margin:0 0 0 4px;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 .ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534bold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 .ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534bold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 dd.ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534last p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 dd.ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534last p span { margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 dd.ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534last p span.ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534yshortcuts { margin-right:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 div.ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534attach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 div.ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534attach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 div.ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534file-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 div.ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534file-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 div.ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534file-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 div.ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534file-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 div.ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534photo-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 div.ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534photo-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 div.ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534photo-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 div.ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534photo-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 div#ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534ygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534yshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 .ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534green { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 .ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534MsoNormal { margin:0 0 0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 o { font-size:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534photos div { float:left;width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534photos div div { border:1px solid #666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534photos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534reco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534reco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 .ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534replbq { margin:4px;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534ygrp-actbar div a:first-child { margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534ygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534ygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534ygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 input, #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534ygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534ygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534logo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534ygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534ygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534attach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534ygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534reco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534ygrp-reco { margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534ov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534ov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534ov ul { margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1531723232 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534 #ygrps-yiv-1531723232ygrps-yiv-147691783yiv0530317534ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25551 From: dave santos Date: 4/16/2019
Subject: Why highly developed electrical grids supress demand for small stand
What is behind the fact that the first "regular operation" of AWES-based homesteading is dramatic kite boat seasteading, with multiple projects doing glorious victory laps around the globe, plus radical ice cap exploration, that sort of thing? Why not land homesteads powered by AWE yet? A major factor is that our modern world has far more cheap electricity where most people live than ever before. When HAWT pioneers started, that was not the case, the world was not yet electrified. Rural folks gave up their Jacobs turbines just as soon as rural electrification came in.

Have no fear, folks will someday do AWES land homesteading, its just not yet been a serious priority for any technical developer so far, while focused on the big game of working out and scaling up AWE. Meanwhile, lets rest content how so many of our predictions, like Dave Langs H2 kite ship proposal, continue to come true on the expected aerospace time frame. Because kites, like any aircraft, are demanding to operate, AWE is unlikely to ever be a solution for the traditional backyard wind enthusiast, who is obviously better served by a conventional wind turbine.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25552 From: Rod Read Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: Re: Cool Bol and Playsail
This conversation has finally struck a chord.
From To A Louse By Robert Burns
On Seeing One On A Lady's Bonnet, At Church
1786  
Where he waxes about the copious hat of a churchgoer.   
A huge amount of material held high.

The final verse 
O wad some Power the giftie gie us 
To see oursels as ithers see us!  
It wad frae mony a blunder free us, 
An' foolish notion: 
What airs in dress an' gait wad lea'e us, 
An' ev'n devotion!  

Oh the gift that God could give us, to see ourselves as others see us.  

Basically, the old way of saying "get real"

I think this disconnect between ambition and reality is what triggered the laugh at the AWE AWEC film premiere
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25553 From: dougselsam Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: Re: Why highly developed electrical grids supress demand for small s
Sounds like even the notoriously stubborn daveS is finally throwing in the towel and "quietly going away".  Today, the theme is drop-in AWE "homesteading".  Why?  Whatever pops into his head at any given moment.  Sure daveS.  No progress possible - all those "world conferences", all those years of playing "expert", all those thousands and thousands of posts, for nothing.  Nothing to see here folks, move along...


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25554 From: dave santos Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: Re: Cool Bol and Playsail
It is funny that COTS hobby kites were shown easily rigged to pump powerfully, while almost everyone watching at AWEC had never imagined that. The theory of "nervous laughter" as a factor in such a crowd continues to seem reasonable for those mired in high-complexity low-COTS AWES design. kPower work is certainly weak cause for mean-spirited laughter. The "powering and entire Japanese Power Plant with AWE" is extra funny because its actually true. At least Rod laughs, if Doug can't.

AWE is ambitious, and those were great demos. kPower is even funnier than WS&I, a high bar to top.



 

This conversation has finally struck a chord.
From To A Louse By Robert Burns
On Seeing One On A Lady's Bonnet, At Church
1786  
Where he waxes about the copious hat of a churchgoer.   
A huge amount of material held high.

The final verse 
O wad some Power the giftie gie us 
To see oursels as ithers see us!  
It wad frae mony a blunder free us, 
An' foolish notion: 
What airs in dress an' gait wad lea'e us, 
An' ev'n devotion!  

Oh the gift that God could give us, to see ourselves as others see us.  

Basically, the old way of saying "get real"

I think this disconnect between ambition and reality is what triggered the laugh at the AWE AWEC film premiere

On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 at 02:54, dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25555 From: dougselsam Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: Re: Cool Bol and Playsail
Dear daveS:  Real wind people stand up for facts in the face of obvious scams.  We try to warn people about such scams, since, with air being invisible, they are always part of the landscape of wind energy.  The scammers have one response: name-calling and accusations.  The scammers go on and on and on telling us mere mortals how much power they "are going to" make, but it never comes true.  Yet they try to accuse us - the very people who warn about the scams - for causing their emotional distress that actually comes from making promises they have no way of keeping.  The scam goes like this:
1) Tell investors you've got a huge energy breakthrough, and will develop a grid-feed project if they give you millions.
2) Keep the story going by issuing press-releases for every boring, agonizing detail of your slowly-developing failure, such as "we rented office space", We ordered a part", "Our part arrived", etc.
3) Stop all communication.
That's it.  Over and over.  How many times do you have to see it before YOU start warning people about "The Emperor's Clothes" or "The Boy who Cried Wolf"?  A child could see this, yet your response is to follow me round the internet "explaining" why even these simple childhood stories are being simply misapplied by me.
DaveS, the "true-believer"...
You've seen 1000 new types of wind energy system in the last decade.  How many have proven superior?
I put together a simple test of daveS and JoeF's "expertise" a while back.  You two had been promoting "Minesto" for quite a while, based on the inclusion of an underwater version of a "kite".  I saw that we were in the period where they issue press-releases over irrelevant details, approaching their "grid-tie" project.  (This is when they start getting nervous, thinking such details will keep investors quiet...)  I declared my doubts that the stated project would happen.  I stated my reason:  I had gotten to the point where I viewed the positive comments of "true-believers" daveS and JoeF as negative indicators.  If "they" said it was good, that was all I needed to know to predict its failure.  After years of internet abuse, I decided to just put it out there:  You guys are so often wrong, that if you say something is going to work, to me, that means it will not.  So you now have this chance to prove yourselves, at least in my mind.   We've been waiting for any NEW Minesto news since then.  Right on schedule.  Silence.  "Bbbut all those jet-engine designers!..."

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

daveS you're lost in a land of self-delusion, patting yourself on the back for doing pretty much nothing.  It is indeed a tribute to the old-school watchmakers that they were able to craft a simple mechanism using a rotating weight to generate usable power in tiny amounts.  The fact that this mechanism can be mounted on anything that moves - your arm, your leg, a wheel, a kite - anything that wiggles - is a testament to the watchmakers, not to your "use" of their mechanism in a shell-game of promoting your supposed mastery of AWE. 
"Don't look over here where we observe a self-winding watch operate as normal, look over there, where we have singlehandedly repowered an entire "Japanese powerplant"!"  Whoa, lookout Fukushima! 
All that happened was they were smart enough to make a mechanism that uses any movement, so you, even with no control whatsoever over kite movement, could use their device.  So could anyone.  A walker.  A jogger.  Someone moving their arm.  Their leg.  A motor vehicle.  A mouse.  A wiggling tree branch.  Your big toe.  Anything.  No brains required. 
Translating the same concept to larger sizes, you'd find yourself trying to explain why keeping a weight elevated, in addition to providing cranking power, was better than just providing cranking power to groundgen station without being required to keep an otherwise useless weight airborne.  All the weight does is make the whole thing more difficult for AWE.  So, yes the watchmakers were clever.  Doesn't seem to be rubbing off on you.  You would want a more dedicated mechanism that did not require suspending extra weight for no reason.  By the way, don't you think you've gone "off-topic"?  Why don't you and Joe flag yourselves when you go "off-topic"?  Or just flog yourselves, to convince "Jesus" to solve AWE 4 u.


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@... #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383ad p { margin:0;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383ygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383ygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383hd { margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383ygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383ad { margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383actions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383activity { background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383activity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383activity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383activity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383activity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383activity span .ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383underline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 .ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383attach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 .ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383attach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 .ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383attach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 .ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383attach label { display:block;margin-bottom:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 .ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383attach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 blockquote { margin:0 0 0 4px;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 .ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383bold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 .ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383bold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 dd.ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383last p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 dd.ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383last p span { margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 dd.ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383last p span.ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383yshortcuts { margin-right:0;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 div.ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383attach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 div.ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383attach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 div.ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383file-title a, #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 div.ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383file-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 div.ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383file-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 div.ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383file-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 div.ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383photo-title a, #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 div.ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383photo-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 div.ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383photo-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 div.ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383photo-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 div#ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383ygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383yshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 .ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383green { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 .ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383MsoNormal { margin:0 0 0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 o { font-size:0;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383photos div { float:left;width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383photos div div { border:1px solid #666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383photos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383reco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383reco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 .ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383replbq { margin:4px;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383ygrp-actbar div a:first-child { margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383ygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383ygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383ygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 input, #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383ygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383ygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383logo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383ygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383ygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383attach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383ygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383reco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383ygrp-reco { margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383ov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383ov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383ov ul { margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-195016408 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383 #ygrps-yiv-195016408ygrps-yiv-985371670yiv7416925383ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25556 From: dave santos Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: Re: Lessons of Rocket Science: Who is the father (and/or mother) of
Wubbo was all our best friend. I have lots of rocket scientist friends at JPL in Pasadena, having helped the Russian planetary robotics pioneers relocate en masse; maybe one of them is a "best friend" to Doug. Dave Lang worked as a NASA space-tether expert, and he is our community pal too.

Anyone who knows aerospace knows rockets and kites are both core tech. Culp's OL is envisioned as a solar sail concept, with NASA connection. Then there are our old NASA LaRC friends, Dave North and Mark Moore.

Are Doug's rocket science "best friends" not interested in AWE because they share Doug's pessimism? Can we pitch the optimistic side to them?



 

My best friends are rocket scientists...


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

Ah, another great diversion.  Today, it's the beginnings of rocketry.  Another attempt at undeserved fame.
This is daveS' new theme of why he "will be" (always in the future) responsible ("rightly honored") for all progress in AWE, while simultaneously (yesterday) just having officially giving up on ever making any working demo.  See, if "Tsiolovsky" can be "rightly honored" as "the father of rocket science" without ever building  rocket, then daveS "will be" "rightly honored" as "The father of AWE".  And he's got Cristina cast as "The Mother".  (By the way I was the first to use the term "denmother" for Cristina's role, meaning the "rest of the kids" were on the level of cub-scouts needing adult supervision.)  Part of the pantheon of "kite gods" etc., in the mind of daveS, as he ascends to his rightful place in it.  Which constellation is that?  Oh it's the kite-God, dave Santos, patron saint of AWE.  But he never built an AWE system!  He refused!  On the basis of... of.. of, well something.  I guess.  All those "encampments" - for nought?...  Sure daveS, just keep changing the subject (honoring people for rocketry), and nobody will notice the shell-game.  Wind energy is all about you, the mustachioed ringmaster, as you imagine...  Even if you have nothing to do with it, it "will be" all about you...  This is great entertainment, isn't it?


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25557 From: dave santos Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: Feel the Energy (kPower technical video recommendation)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25558 From: dougselsam Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: Re: Cool Bol and Playsail
Roddy:
Yes your renderings do resemble a giant Easter Bonnet.
There is a film premiere?
:)


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <rod.read@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25559 From: dave santos Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: Re: Cool Bol and Playsail
Doug, Your 1000ft driveshaft best matches your specific criteria for an AWE crackpot scam, unless you finally prove it workable after so may years of promoting it. You have to get to the target upper wind resource between 200 and 600 m high to be in the game. Power kites are already validated at that altitude since 2004.

The COTS power kite is the "real wind" tech in AWE, able to fly higher and scale larger than anything else. Rapid progress in power kites is independent of any shortcoming of mine you oddly choose to spend your life complaining about. You even seem puzzled why they called a "power" kites, or why NASA rocket scientists put "Power" in the NPW name.

Have you worked with power kites yet? You are missing out if not.





 

Dear daveS:  Real wind people stand up for facts in the face of obvious scams.  We try to warn people about such scams, since, with air being invisible, they are always part of the landscape of wind energy.  The scammers have one response: name-calling and accusations.  The scammers go on and on and on telling us mere mortals how much power they "are going to" make, but it never comes true.  Yet they try to accuse us - the very people who warn about the scams - for causing their emotional distress that actually comes from making promises they have no way of keeping.  The scam goes like this:
1) Tell investors you've got a huge energy breakthrough, and will develop a grid-feed project if they give you millions.
2) Keep the story going by issuing press-releases for every boring, agonizing detail of your slowly-developing failure, such as "we rented office space", We ordered a part", "Our part arrived", etc.
3) Stop all communication.
That's it.  Over and over.  How many times do you have to see it before YOU start warning people about "The Emperor's Clothes" or "The Boy who Cried Wolf"?  A child could see this, yet your response is to follow me round the internet "explaining" why even these simple childhood stories are being simply misapplied by me.
DaveS, the "true-believer"...
You've seen 1000 new types of wind energy system in the last decade.  How many have proven superior?
I put together a simple test of daveS and JoeF's "expertise" a while back.  You two had been promoting "Minesto" for quite a while, based on the inclusion of an underwater version of a "kite".  I saw that we were in the period where they issue press-releases over irrelevant details, approaching their "grid-tie" project.  (This is when they start getting nervous, thinking such details will keep investors quiet...)  I declared my doubts that the stated project would happen.  I stated my reason:  I had gotten to the point where I viewed the positive comments of "true-believers" daveS and JoeF as negative indicators.  If "they" said it was good, that was all I needed to know to predict its failure.  After years of internet abuse, I decided to just put it out there:  You guys are so often wrong, that if you say something is going to work, to me, that means it will not.  So you now have this chance to prove yourselves, at least in my mind.   We've been waiting for any NEW Minesto news since then.  Right on schedule.  Silence.  "Bbbut all those jet-engine designers!..."

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

daveS you're lost in a land of self-delusion, patting yourself on the back for doing pretty much nothing.  It is indeed a tribute to the old-school watchmakers that they were able to craft a simple mechanism using a rotating weight to generate usable power in tiny amounts.  The fact that this mechanism can be mounted on anything that moves - your arm, your leg, a wheel, a kite - anything that wiggles - is a testament to the watchmakers, not to your "use" of their mechanism in a shell-game of promoting your supposed mastery of AWE. 
"Don't look over here where we observe a self-winding watch operate as normal, look over there, where we have singlehandedly repowered an entire "Japanese powerplant"!"  Whoa, lookout Fukushima! 
All that happened was they were smart enough to make a mechanism that uses any movement, so you, even with no control whatsoever over kite movement, could use their device.  So could anyone.  A walker.  A jogger.  Someone moving their arm.  Their leg.  A motor vehicle.  A mouse.  A wiggling tree branch.  Your big toe.  Anything.  No brains required. 
Translating the same concept to larger sizes, you'd find yourself trying to explain why keeping a weight elevated, in addition to providing cranking power, was better than just providing cranking power to groundgen station without being required to keep an otherwise useless weight airborne.  All the weight does is make the whole thing more difficult for AWE.  So, yes the watchmakers were clever.  Doesn't seem to be rubbing off on you.  You would want a more dedicated mechanism that did not require suspending extra weight for no reason.  By the way, don't you think you've gone "off-topic"?  Why don't you and Joe flag yourselves when you go "off-topic"?  Or just flog yourselves, to convince "Jesus" to solve AWE 4 u.


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25560 From: dave santos Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: Latest Minesto News
Minesto seems on track for years of continued R&D. Its unclear why Doug thinks they have failed, and he does not quote me or JoeF as making any specific error in our past coverage. Good Luck to the Minesto Team-
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25561 From: dave santos Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: Re: Why highly developed electrical grids supress demand for small s
No, this not what "going away quietly" means, to continue AWES Forum discussion as usual.

AWE seasteading around the world is far more impressive than Doug's simplistic homesteading milestone. Exotic off-grid seasteading and icesteading AWE variants have taken hold, even while no one paying for cheap grid power need bother with a kite.

For comparison, no ST is in regular operation; that's the quiet truth that won't go away.



 

Sounds like even the notoriously stubborn daveS is finally throwing in the towel and "quietly going away".  Today, the theme is drop-in AWE "homesteading".  Why?  Whatever pops into his head at any given moment.  Sure daveS.  No progress possible - all those "world conferences", all those years of playing "expert", all those thousands and thousands of posts, for nothing.  Nothing to see here folks, move along...



---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25562 From: dave santos Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: Isotropic v. Planar Kite Networks
As posed and developed bit-by-bit over the years, a major fork in the kite network design race is to choose either isotropic kite networks that passively accept wind from any direction, or planar networks that rotate to match wind direction.

The trade-off is simple to understand, but its hard to know which path is better. The planar network is superior by minimal material requirement and no wake interference from upwind kites, but it has to be rotated as wind direction veers. The isotropic option is more attractive if land and airspace are abundant. The planar option is superior where wind direction is consistent enough to reduce reorienting. Similarly, the isotropic method wins in wildly veering wind.

We need to develop both architectures, since each has large favored niches. They may prove roughly equivalent in average application, just as two different tools often can do the same job acceptably. A better term for "isotropic" is wanted, since strictly-speaking, all our networks a vertically asymmetric (laterally isotropic?). There is also a complex range of possible designs between laterally isotropic and crosswind planar extremes.

Anyone in a hurry to "solve" AWE must guess rather blindly. It takes a lot of time and work to carefully explore all options. Fortunately, kite network research is a fantastic calling, so the required time and labor is enjoyable. Isotropic experiments promise to be great fun, but the planar path is quicker and cheaper to hack, with more dynamic operations for those who like the action. 

This is AWE at the threshold of a grand future. Enjoy the quest.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25563 From: dave santos Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: Ampyx's "Roadmap"
Looks like an Ampyx chapter from the 2nd Springer AWE book (which I have not seen), with rather cursory regard for mass-scaling issues and sanguine hope for low LCOE. There is also a curious emphasis on vetting single-point failure modes, when current systems-engineering practice is very concerned with the complex causality of cascading failures.

The final sentence rings as an odd admission that rigid winds themselves may well prove less "generally applicable within the wider AWE community" for utility-scale. Is Ampyx trying to clear a path to pivot away from its early down-select, if it does not pan out? They may be in too deep for that.

"The presented approach has been developed for a rigid wing utility-scale AWE system, but may be more generally applicable within the wider AWE community."
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25564 From: dougselsam Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: Re: Cool Bol and Playsail
1) You don't hear me promising large grid-tie projects, or promising anything else, unlike you.  I'm not asking anyone for money.  Therefore I am not running a scam.  Unlike you.
2)  I've invented significant new, effective types of wind turbines, and demonstrated them.  Almost nobody else can say that.  SuperTurbine offers the most effective way to increase power output from a turbine of a given rotor diameter.  My turbines set records.  The designs are celebrated around the world.  Yet I ask nothing of anyone.  Meanwhile, your record output is a supposed 5 Watts, over a decade ago, while you claim to have been conducting ongoing wind energy research the whole time, while not even matching your former record of 5 Watts.  Now THAT sounds like a scam to me.


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

Dear daveS:  Real wind people stand up for facts in the face of obvious scams.  We try to warn people about such scams, since, with air being invisible, they are always part of the landscape of wind energy.  The scammers have one response: name-calling and accusations.  The scammers go on and on and on telling us mere mortals how much power they "are going to" make, but it never comes true.  Yet they try to accuse us - the very people who warn about the scams - for causing their emotional distress that actually comes from making promises they have no way of keeping.  The scam goes like this:
1) Tell investors you've got a huge energy breakthrough, and will develop a grid-feed project if they give you millions.
2) Keep the story going by issuing press-releases for every boring, agonizing detail of your slowly-developing failure, such as "we rented office space", We ordered a part", "Our part arrived", etc.
3) Stop all communication.
That's it.  Over and over.  How many times do you have to see it before YOU start warning people about "The Emperor's Clothes" or "The Boy who Cried Wolf"?  A child could see this, yet your response is to follow me round the internet "explaining" why even these simple childhood stories are being simply misapplied by me.
DaveS, the "true-believer"...
You've seen 1000 new types of wind energy system in the last decade.  How many have proven superior?
I put together a simple test of daveS and JoeF's "expertise" a while back.  You two had been promoting "Minesto" for quite a while, based on the inclusion of an underwater version of a "kite".  I saw that we were in the period where they issue press-releases over irrelevant details, approaching their "grid-tie" project.  (This is when they start getting nervous, thinking such details will keep investors quiet...)  I declared my doubts that the stated project would happen.  I stated my reason:  I had gotten to the point where I viewed the positive comments of "true-believers" daveS and JoeF as negative indicators.  If "they" said it was good, that was all I needed to know to predict its failure.  After years of internet abuse, I decided to just put it out there:  You guys are so often wrong, that if you say something is going to work, to me, that means it will not.  So you now have this chance to prove yourselves, at least in my mind.   We've been waiting for any NEW Minesto news since then.  Right on schedule.  Silence.  "Bbbut all those jet-engine designers!..."

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

daveS you're lost in a land of self-delusion, patting yourself on the back for doing pretty much nothing.  It is indeed a tribute to the old-school watchmakers that they were able to craft a simple mechanism using a rotating weight to generate usable power in tiny amounts.  The fact that this mechanism can be mounted on anything that moves - your arm, your leg, a wheel, a kite - anything that wiggles - is a testament to the watchmakers, not to your "use" of their mechanism in a shell-game of promoting your supposed mastery of AWE. 
"Don't look over here where we observe a self-winding watch operate as normal, look over there, where we have singlehandedly repowered an entire "Japanese powerplant"!"  Whoa, lookout Fukushima! 
All that happened was they were smart enough to make a mechanism that uses any movement, so you, even with no control whatsoever over kite movement, could use their device.  So could anyone.  A walker.  A jogger.  Someone moving their arm.  Their leg.  A motor vehicle.  A mouse.  A wiggling tree branch.  Your big toe.  Anything.  No brains required. 
Translating the same concept to larger sizes, you'd find yourself trying to explain why keeping a weight elevated, in addition to providing cranking power, was better than just providing cranking power to groundgen station without being required to keep an otherwise useless weight airborne.  All the weight does is make the whole thing more difficult for AWE.  So, yes the watchmakers were clever.  Doesn't seem to be rubbing off on you.  You would want a more dedicated mechanism that did not require suspending extra weight for no reason.  By the way, don't you think you've gone "off-topic"?  Why don't you and Joe flag yourselves when you go "off-topic"?  Or just flog yourselves, to convince "Jesus" to solve AWE 4 u.


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@... #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182ad p { margin:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182ygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182ygrp-lc #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182hd { margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182ygrp-lc .ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182ad { margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182actions { font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182activity { background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182activity span { font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182activity span:first-child { text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182activity span a { color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182activity span span { color:#ff7900;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182activity span .ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182underline { text-decoration:underline;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 .ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182attach { clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 .ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182attach div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 .ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182attach img { border:none;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 .ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182attach label { display:block;margin-bottom:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 .ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182attach label a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 blockquote { margin:0 0 0 4px;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 .ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182bold { font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 .ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182bold a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 dd.ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182last p a { font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 dd.ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182last p span { margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 dd.ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182last p span.ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182yshortcuts { margin-right:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 div.ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182attach-table div div a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 div.ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182attach-table { width:400px;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 div.ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182file-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 div.ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182file-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 div.ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182file-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 div.ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182file-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 div.ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182photo-title a, #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 div.ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182photo-title a:active, #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 div.ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182photo-title a:hover, #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 div.ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182photo-title a:visited { text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 div#ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182ygrp-msg p a span.ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182yshortcuts { font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 .ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182green { color:#628c2a;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 .ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182MsoNormal { margin:0 0 0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 o { font-size:0;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182photos div { float:left;width:72px;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182photos div div { border:1px solid #666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182photos div label { color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182reco-category { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182reco-desc { font-size:77%;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 .ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182replbq { margin:4px;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182ygrp-actbar div a:first-child { margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182ygrp-mlmsg { font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182ygrp-mlmsg table { font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182ygrp-mlmsg select, #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 input, #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 textarea { font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182ygrp-mlmsg pre, #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 code { font:115% monospace;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182ygrp-mlmsg * { line-height:1.22em;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182ygrp-mlmsg #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182logo { padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182ygrp-msg p a { font-family:Verdana;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182ygrp-msg p#ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182attach-count span { color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182ygrp-reco #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182reco-head { color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182ygrp-reco { margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182ov li a { font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182ov li { font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182ygrp-sponsor #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182ov ul { margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182ygrp-text { font-family:Georgia;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182ygrp-text p { margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182ygrp-text tt { font-size:120%;} #ygrps-yiv-1795085451 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182 #ygrps-yiv-1795085451ygrps-yiv-847508947yiv4502337182ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right:none !important;}
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25565 From: dave santos Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: Re: Cool Bol and Playsail
Doug. How come you still can't quote all the false "promises" or "lies"?

"All roads lead to the ST" remains the most extreme venture claim in AWE. PopSci ST coverage cannot rank with our peer-reviewed literature.

You seem to have missed a lot of kPower demos. How much power can you predict the 12ft rotor under Mini-Motha develops? Far more than 5W. At least you now concede 5W, where before you thought zero power. That's progress.

Form a new topic when you have nothing helpful to say about the present topic.



 

1) You don't hear me promising large grid-tie projects, or promising anything else, unlike you.  I'm not asking anyone for money.  Therefore I am not running a scam.  Unlike you.
2)  I've invented significant new, effective types of wind turbines, and demonstrated them.  Almost nobody else can say that.  SuperTurbine offers the most effective way to increase power output from a turbine of a given rotor diameter.  My turbines set records.  The designs are celebrated around the world.  Yet I ask nothing of anyone.  Meanwhile, your record output is a supposed 5 Watts, over a decade ago, while you claim to have been conducting ongoing wind energy research the whole time, while not even matching your former record of 5 Watts.  Now THAT sounds like a scam to me.


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

Dear daveS:  Real wind people stand up for facts in the face of obvious scams.  We try to warn people about such scams, since, with air being invisible, they are always part of the landscape of wind energy.  The scammers have one response: name-calling and accusations.  The scammers go on and on and on telling us mere mortals how much power they "are going to" make, but it never comes true.  Yet they try to accuse us - the very people who warn about the scams - for causing their emotional distress that actually comes from making promises they have no way of keeping.  The scam goes like this:
1) Tell investors you've got a huge energy breakthrough, and will develop a grid-feed project if they give you millions.
2) Keep the story going by issuing press-releases for every boring, agonizing detail of your slowly-developing failure, such as "we rented office space", We ordered a part", "Our part arrived", etc.
3) Stop all communication.
That's it.  Over and over.  How many times do you have to see it before YOU start warning people about "The Emperor's Clothes" or "The Boy who Cried Wolf"?  A child could see this, yet your response is to follow me round the internet "explaining" why even these simple childhood stories are being simply misapplied by me.
DaveS, the "true-believer"...
You've seen 1000 new types of wind energy system in the last decade.  How many have proven superior?
I put together a simple test of daveS and JoeF's "expertise" a while back.  You two had been promoting "Minesto" for quite a while, based on the inclusion of an underwater version of a "kite".  I saw that we were in the period where they issue press-releases over irrelevant details, approaching their "grid-tie" project.  (This is when they start getting nervous, thinking such details will keep investors quiet...)  I declared my doubts that the stated project would happen.  I stated my reason:  I had gotten to the point where I viewed the positive comments of "true-believers" daveS and JoeF as negative indicators.  If "they" said it was good, that was all I needed to know to predict its failure.  After years of internet abuse, I decided to just put it out there:  You guys are so often wrong, that if you say something is going to work, to me, that means it will not.  So you now have this chance to prove yourselves, at least in my mind.   We've been waiting for any NEW Minesto news since then.  Right on schedule.  Silence.  "Bbbut all those jet-engine designers!..."

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

daveS you're lost in a land of self-delusion, patting yourself on the back for doing pretty much nothing.  It is indeed a tribute to the old-school watchmakers that they were able to craft a simple mechanism using a rotating weight to generate usable power in tiny amounts.  The fact that this mechanism can be mounted on anything that moves - your arm, your leg, a wheel, a kite - anything that wiggles - is a testament to the watchmakers, not to your "use" of their mechanism in a shell-game of promoting your supposed mastery of AWE. 
"Don't look over here where we observe a self-winding watch operate as normal, look over there, where we have singlehandedly repowered an entire "Japanese powerplant"!"  Whoa, lookout Fukushima! 
All that happened was they were smart enough to make a mechanism that uses any movement, so you, even with no control whatsoever over kite movement, could use their device.  So could anyone.  A walker.  A jogger.  Someone moving their arm.  Their leg.  A motor vehicle.  A mouse.  A wiggling tree branch.  Your big toe.  Anything.  No brains required. 
Translating the same concept to larger sizes, you'd find yourself trying to explain why keeping a weight elevated, in addition to providing cranking power, was better than just providing cranking power to groundgen station without being required to keep an otherwise useless weight airborne.  All the weight does is make the whole thing more difficult for AWE.  So, yes the watchmakers were clever.  Doesn't seem to be rubbing off on you.  You would want a more dedicated mechanism that did not require suspending extra weight for no reason.  By the way, don't you think you've gone "off-topic"?  Why don't you and Joe flag yourselves when you go "off-topic"?  Or just flog yourselves, to convince "Jesus" to solve AWE 4 u.


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25566 From: dave santos Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: First Anarctica Crossing with Kites (1989-90)
Kites are now an essential method of modern arctic exploration, but who was first? Maybe there were ancient snow-kite cases we have no record of. This is an early-modern case-
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25567 From: dave santos Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: Japanese KITE project (space tether case)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25568 From: dave santos Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: Re: Japanese KITE project (space tether case)
Amazing idea, to spray electrons from the base satellite unit to enable an electromagnetic kite to be steered at will 700m out.

Have not found test results yet but here's the concept overview-

HTV-6: Experiments
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25569 From: dave santos Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: Lessons of the Kite Death Loop
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25570 From: dave santos Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: New hybrid SS Power Kite Class
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25571 From: dave santos Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: Best Tarp Kite Yet?
Power kite functionality from a 10 dollar tarp. We are getting closer to Dave Culp's dream of how to rig his "blue tarp to power a village" concept.

There are endless ways to rig tarps, and we have seen and flown just a few close variants, so its great to see more cases. Its unclear if the vent hole is really doing anything here. No doubt there are still better rigs to discover, to make fine wings eventually, at little cost.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25572 From: benhaiemp Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: Re: Best Tarp Kite Yet?
Thanks DaveS for this interesting link. At 5' from the beginning the Stratta Bache Kite flies as a static kite. Congratulations to Richard Stratta https://cv.ffvl.fr/node/112.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25573 From: dave santos Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: Successful SpiderMill Transmission Bench-Testing
As an astronaut running out of time on this planet, Wubbo's final (AWEC 2011) AWES down select was the SpiderMill, a network of kites that pull a PTO line into a zig-zag to create pumping force. kPower refined the starting design concept with pulleys on kite leaders, to enable longer smoother more powerful strokes. For bench-testing, pulleys, line, and bungee were rigged on steel frames, to activate by hand. Rather than pump every pulley leader, the PTO line was reverse-pumped, to simplify manual activation. A few basic variations were tested.

It was found that the power transfer is effective, with a bit of pulley friction. The cheap plastic pulleys do dirty the action a bit, you can feel it, but quality ball-bearing sailing blocks would run like silk. The blocks need to align closely with the direction of lines, by free swivel action. A stroke spreads nicely to all pulley units. All pumping kites will work in close lock-step, since the speed of sound in tensioned line distributes power thru the rig up to 40km/sec.

Having now confirmed the basic mechanical action Wubbo hit on, we can be confident that his transmission method will work effectively with kites. The SpiderMill transmission principle also promises to work in networked arrays. Wubbo Lives :)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25574 From: dave santos Date: 4/17/2019
Subject: Progress in AWE eclipsing conventional wind power
Attachments :
    Attached image shows Branson's version of "test, test, test, and test again". This natural AWE R&D emerging from aviation culture (Branson holds flight records and runs an airline).

    Besides aviation culture, the other big secret of AWE progress is the power kite world itself, far bigger and richer than any other AWES research track. The kite created modern aviation, and Jalbert and others, themselves great pilots, in turn reinvented the kite to someday power the world.

    The photo proves real progress in kite energy. If you can identify the "kite smiles", that's elite AWE expertise.
    		   @@attachment@@
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25575 From: dave santos Date: 4/18/2019
    Subject: Re: Best Tarp Kite Yet?
    Upon review of the kite's plan, the "vent hole" is seen to relieve tension along the TE so the kite flies forwards. Otherwise, the equal-length bridle lines would result in a fully stalled kite. This is a clever design trick to simplify the measurements and set-up.



     

    Thanks DaveS for this interesting link. At 5' from the beginning the Stratta Bache Kite flies as a static kite. Congratulations to Richard Stratta https://cv.ffvl.fr/node/112.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25576 From: benhaiemp Date: 4/18/2019
    Subject: Re: Best Tarp Kite Yet?

    Lifetime of xf-film: several years (vs lifetime of a soft crosswind kite several months).

    Possible maximization of the space: yes.

    Reliability and safety: perhaps yes.

    Low LCOE: yes.


    The Stratta-bâche looks to be a (if no the) real possibility for a viable (here static,not crosswind) AWES, in pumping mode. The two lines can work the two winches and in the same time improve the active stability, using a simple automated control to study improving the passive stability.


    The loss of efficiency due to the static kite (apart reel-out move) is compensated both with a higher lifetime due to less strengths on the kite, and with the possibility to reduce spacing between unities within  a kite-farm.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25577 From: dave santos Date: 4/18/2019
    Subject: Current Status of Reeling AWES architecture
    - Reeling more popular than ever in academic research, by sheer number of players.

    - Known suboptimal Reeling factors initially outweighed by baseline-data production need.

    - Reeling is a dead-end for non-agile engineering teams and a stepping stone for others.

    - Reeling beating "freak turbine" concepts in key parameters like power, altitude, and capital-cost.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25578 From: dave santos Date: 4/18/2019
    Subject: Re: Best Tarp Kite Yet?
    Crosswind Bache motion is workable for "dancing hippo" action on a crosswind PTO loop. Reeling is workable by flagging the kite back upwind at low D.



     

    Lifetime of xf-film: several years (vs lifetime of a soft crosswind kite several months).

    Possible maximization of the space: yes.

    Reliability and safety: perhaps yes.

    Low LCOE: yes.


    The Stratta-bâche looks to be a (if no the) real possibility for a viable (here static,not crosswind) AWES, in pumping mode. The two lines can work the two winches and in the same time improve the active stability, using a simple automated control to study improving the passive stability.


    The loss of efficiency due to the static kite (apart reel-out move) is compensated both with a higher lifetime due to less strengths on the kite, and with the possibility to reduce spacing between unities within  a kite-farm.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25579 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/18/2019
    Subject: Re: Japanese KITE project (space tether case)
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25580 From: dave santos Date: 4/18/2019
    Subject: Re: Japanese KITE project (space tether case)
    The space junk removal problem suggests to me that some sort of conical "catcher's mitt" could capture junk at high velocities and contain the splash of impact, and even use impact force, by billiards' kinetics, to move to a new position to catch the next object. Some combination of KITE and other techniques might soon form a true prototype solution. 

    Large space junk seems like a valuable resource in space, where useful material is scarce. Even just bulk radiation shielding or inertial reaction mass would be valuable salvage, compared to the cost of lofting mass from the surface. Eventually, complete recycling plants will make sense, separating parts, metal scraps, polymers, and so on.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25581 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/18/2019
    Subject: Re: Best Tarp Kite Yet?
    https://cv.ffvl.fr/node/112      The link to the plan.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25582 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/18/2019
    Subject: Re: Best Tarp Kite Yet?
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25583 From: dave santos Date: 4/18/2019
    Subject: "Kite Jihad"???
    Kite reportage from a Zionist POV. We have followed the sudden weaponization of the Palestinian kite from UN-promoted world record mass flights by refugee children in years past, to its recent emergence as a modern asymmetric-warfare equalizer. We may be seeing the future end of wars-of-occupation, which may become unviable due to evolving kite methods in the hands of populations. 

    Ancient Chinese kite history echoes this modern trend, where Mo Tzu, a liberational leader in the Warring States Era, is said to have invented the kite as a novel means of resistance against besiegers, who themselves adopted kites for surveillance and aerial bombardment. We are now able to identify the "kite principle" in modern military aerospace platform physics, as well as in the ancient stick and tissue platforms.

    Peace.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25584 From: dave santos Date: 4/18/2019
    Subject: AWE saving ~250,000 barrels of oil daily; just a start.
    Reminding everyone that AWE savings in transport-aviation, by the ~5% factor gained by playing tailwinds, saves around a quarter of a million barrels of oil daily. Conventional wind power is not part of this savings, because its surface-bound.

    This is AWE's current level of success, but we have a long way to go to displace oil consumption generally, an urgent need that will require an epic increase in AWE R&D. Be ready for one of the wildest technological rides in human history.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25585 From: dave santos Date: 4/18/2019
    Subject: Who wrote what about Altaeros in 2011 AWES Forum
    Doug, Oct 27: "[Altaeros] idea is one of the more reasonable ones in that it could actually work, still be there the next day etc. It does not try to bite off more than it can chew, and is simple enough to be attainable."

    daveS, same day: "Doug, 
     
    While its true that helium lift "actually work(s)" for AWE, there are severe downsides to its use and also to this sort of LTA design. Here is a review for you and newcomers to the list-
     
    The hollow tube shape of the lifting envelope does not maximize volume, requiring more material for less lift, therefore more helium. The complex envelope is bound to leak faster, requiring more helium. The inflated Venturi shape is quite crude, with unavoidable drag. This design will be sooner destabilized and driven down in a storm than a conventional albacore form. My prediction, based on years of LTA experience and design, is that a conventional aerostat with a more conventional turbine hung underneath will outperform the more complex balloons in almost every way, but especially ROI. My conviction is that helium in itself is not a sound basis for cheap AWE on the civilization scale.
     
    A huge problem with LTA for remote use is helium supply and extended resupply. Helium is not universally available, is not cheap, and the expensive tanks are incredibly heavy for the amount of lift they contain. The unique quality of helium, compared to a kite, is to persist aloft in calm, when there is no power to tap anyway.
     
    The most advanced use of lifting gas use in AWE is KiteLab PDX's demos of a single party balloon rigged as a kytoon acting as  the early automatic relaunch initiation device for a far larger more powerful kite, a launch cascade by stages (link below).
     
    Finally, there is the social issue of "peak helium" which Asimov first warned about in the 60s. Helium is too precious to let it leak away forever. It should be conserved for uses like medical cryogenics. There are also concerns about this team's longterm military focus and role as a poster child for Big Oil propaganda, but we still celebrate their latest success.
     
    daveS"
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25586 From: dave santos Date: 4/18/2019
    Subject: Phonon Physics of Flight as shown with paper planes
    In this fine video series indoor paper planes exhibit passive control logic based on embodied phonon physics engineered by top aerospace teams. 

    In a typical sequence, the paper plane starts by banking one way and then the other way in a precision serpentine course. This inherent roll oscillation embodies a two-phonon effect where a bank in one direction is the energy antiparticle to a sequential bank in the other direction. The actuation energy is stored in the pendulum-stability factor, with dihedral as the limit factor. To match a somewhat arbitrary precision S-course, the plane is trimmed subtlety, and roll-phonon alternation does the rest.

    The AWES Forum has been a wonderful place for advanced aerodynamic ideas to incubate, given open theoretic challenges to better explain kite flight. This Japanese show's paper-plane feats match our emerging theory, and also show elite aerospace team culture in creative action. AWE work is even more fun!