Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                          AWES 25383 to 25432 Page 399 of 440.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25383 From: dave santos Date: 3/27/2019
Subject: Re: Relation of Phonon Science to Mechanical Engineering not in doub

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25384 From: dave santos Date: 3/27/2019
Subject: Tight-8 test with Ozone Frenzy 4.5m2

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25385 From: dave santos Date: 3/28/2019
Subject: Re: Tight-8 test with Ozone Frenzy 4.5m2

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25386 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/28/2019
Subject: Re: Relation of Phonon Science to Mechanical Engineering not in doub

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25387 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/28/2019
Subject: AWE measurements ... new era

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25388 From: dave santos Date: 3/28/2019
Subject: Pulley/Block/Bull-Wheel Line/Rope Notes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25389 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/28/2019
Subject: Re: Relation of Phonon Science to Mechanical Engineering not in doub

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25390 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/28/2019
Subject: Re: Relation of Phonon Science to Mechanical Engineering not in doub

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25391 From: gordon_sp Date: 3/28/2019
Subject: Re: Isotropic kite [1 Attachment]

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25392 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/28/2019
Subject: Final report for AWESCO project submitted

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25393 From: dave santos Date: 3/28/2019
Subject: Re: Isotropic kite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25394 From: dave santos Date: 3/28/2019
Subject: Re: Pulley/Block/Bull-Wheel Line/Rope Notes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25395 From: gordon_sp Date: 3/28/2019
Subject: Re: Peter Lynn gets his mojo back, SS progress to continue

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25396 From: dave santos Date: 3/28/2019
Subject: Re: Final report for AWESCO project submitted

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25397 From: dave santos Date: 3/28/2019
Subject: Re: Peter Lynn gets his mojo back, SS progress to continue

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25398 From: dave santos Date: 3/28/2019
Subject: Re: AWE measurements ... new era

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25399 From: dave santos Date: 3/28/2019
Subject: Re: AWE measurements ... new era

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25400 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/28/2019
Subject: Re: Peter Lynn gets his mojo back, SS progress to continue

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25401 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/28/2019
Subject: Fwd: 🔧 Kiwee, The flying wind turbine 🔨

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25402 From: dave santos Date: 3/29/2019
Subject: First double-piloting of Drone and Kite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25403 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/29/2019
Subject: General AWE Videos

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25404 From: dave santos Date: 3/29/2019
Subject: Re: First double-piloting of Drone and Kite [1 Attachment]

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25405 From: dave santos Date: 3/29/2019
Subject: Re: Pulley/Block/Bull-Wheel Line/Rope Notes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25406 From: dave santos Date: 3/29/2019
Subject: Re: First double-piloting of Drone and Kite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25407 From: dave santos Date: 3/29/2019
Subject: Theoretic Paleo-Kite Cultures

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25408 From: dave santos Date: 3/29/2019
Subject: 2015 TwingTec Kite-Fuel Hybrid Plant Concept

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25409 From: dave santos Date: 3/30/2019
Subject: Re: 2015 TwingTec Kite-Fuel Hybrid Plant Concept

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25410 From: dave santos Date: 3/30/2019
Subject: Kitewinder reaches AWES sales milestone- "a hundred sales so far"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25411 From: dave santos Date: 3/30/2019
Subject: “Jesus will solve AWE” Debate Continues

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25412 From: dave santos Date: 3/30/2019
Subject: Solving AWE as a "Wicked Problem" (Classic Planning Science)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25413 From: dave santos Date: 3/30/2019
Subject: Re: Solving AWE as a "Wicked Problem" (Classic Planning Science)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25414 From: dave santos Date: 3/30/2019
Subject: Automated Magnetic Wire-Rope Testing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25415 From: dave santos Date: 3/30/2019
Subject: Re: Automated Magnetic Wire-Rope Testing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25416 From: dave santos Date: 3/30/2019
Subject: foil board kits

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25417 From: dave santos Date: 3/30/2019
Subject: Invented Chicken-Loop and Reinvented Larkshead Knot Instead

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25418 From: dave santos Date: 3/30/2019
Subject: Re: Invented Chicken-Loop and Reinvented Larkshead Knot Instead

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25419 From: Rod Read Date: 3/30/2019
Subject: Re: Theoretic Paleo-Kite Cultures

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25420 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/30/2019
Subject: Re: Theoretic Paleo-Kite Cultures

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25421 From: dave santos Date: 3/30/2019
Subject: Re: Theoretic Paleo-Kite Cultures

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25422 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/30/2019
Subject: Re: Theoretic Paleo-Kite Cultures

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25423 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/30/2019
Subject: Flying Wind Farms

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25424 From: tallakt Date: 3/30/2019
Subject: Re: Invented Chicken-Loop and Reinvented Larkshead Knot Instead

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25425 From: Rod Read Date: 3/30/2019
Subject: Re: Theoretic Paleo-Kite Cultures

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25426 From: dougselsam Date: 3/31/2019
Subject: Re: “Jesus will solve AWE” Debate Continues

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25427 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/31/2019
Subject: Using kites to encourage people to vote

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25428 From: dougselsam Date: 3/31/2019
Subject: Re: “Jesus will solve AWE” Debate Continues

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25429 From: dougselsam Date: 3/31/2019
Subject: Re: Solving AWE as a "Wicked Problem" (Classic Planning Science)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25430 From: Santos Date: 4/1/2019
Subject: Re: Solving AWE as a "Wicked Problem" (Classic Planning Science)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25431 From: Santos Date: 4/1/2019
Subject: Re: “Jesus will solve AWE” Debate Continues

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25432 From: Santos Date: 4/1/2019
Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: “Jesus will solve AWE” Debate Continues



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25383 From: dave santos Date: 3/27/2019
Subject: Re: Relation of Phonon Science to Mechanical Engineering not in doub
The starting case here years ago, the rabbit-hole, was our ship-towing hawser conveying say 10MW towing power at 100% superconducting efficiency. It's a standing wave phonon hole, filled with zero-point energy, a hypersonic wormhole. Pull apart the the rope and it will violently release


 

Sonic relativity in kites is not the speed of sound in air, but the speed of sound in polymer, up to 50x faster in tight line, or zero in slack line. This is very extreme sonic relativity, with obvious practical implications for direct kite control over distance.

Debye temperature is another window in to quantum realm. UMWPE has a super-high Debye temp, well above ambient, ergo  BES.

QM is formally the same thing as Matrix Mechanics, just fundamental working math for all sciences. Its false logic that formal QM application is a reliable marker of crackpot thinking, see Crackpot Index as a better predictor. We use state machines in control. Again, just tools in the hands of workers, no proper cause for trolling.

Kite QM, relativity, thermodynamics, and chaos are causes for celebration, not complaint. We have no choice in kites but to be phononic engineers, so lets get good at it.

On ‎Wednesday‎, ‎March‎ ‎27‎, ‎2019‎ ‎08‎:‎33‎:‎41‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


 

Helping Doug to correct his persistent misimpressions about kite physics, 

He writes, "Synchronized movement does not even imply "bose einstein condensates"."

The correct view is that coherent synchronous motions obey Bose Einstein STATISTICS (BES) and Bose Einstein CONDENSATE (BEC) is just one BES example of many.  Doug is  very slow to grasp that BES is meant, but we are very patient. BEC is a loose analogy with packed kite states like stuffed-in-a-bag.
On ‎Wednesday‎, ‎March‎ ‎27‎, ‎2019‎ ‎07‎:‎59‎:‎23‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


 

Doug, 

Phonons are no more hypothetical than Photons or Electrons. Simply measure the elastic energy stored in a spring, if you somehow thought measuring a phonon was too complicated. Hint- kites can pull springs (make phonons).

You just aren't yet a fan of the modern physics revolution. Go ahead and develop a superior kite physics of your own, and we'll honor that. You won't get credit for unending despair over the efforts of others. Instead fix your stalled ST R&D and be a contender. Resting on your PoPSci and T-Boone AWE claims is more dubious than any kite science you deny emotionally.

Thanks for insisting on ever closer examination of kite physics on the AWES Forum, the best place to learn key fine points. Just stop being the most unhappy with the wonderful AWE community. Go find folks you like, if we can't meet your standard.


On ‎Wednesday‎, ‎March‎ ‎27‎, ‎2019‎ ‎07‎:‎19‎:‎20‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CDT, dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


 

Dream on, my friend.  Big words are your excuse to do nothing.  That's the way I see it.
Your scolding "lectures" hold no water and are nothing but your own attempt to amuse yourself.
Phonons are hypothetical quantized sound "particles" that travel at the speed of sound.  Can you give an example?  How much energy does your "quantized sound packet" contain?
Not every wave is a phonon.  Most are not.
Synchronized movement does not even imply "bose einstein condensates".
The world is full of synchronized movement - that is how machines work, no artificial buzzwords needed.
You are way way off in la-la-land.  You have no lattice.  No lattice, with no waves.  No photons, gravitons, or phonons have been harmed or disturbed in any way in your "research".  Let alone electrons.  You should be proud.


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...  

"Doug is unaware" of any actual applicability of your ongoing pretense of AWE relevance based on misapplying "big words".  We hear you barking, as usual, but where is your phonon AWE system?  Same place as your Bose Einstein condensate AWE system - nowhere - a mere figment of your imagination. 
You keep talking of "flyoffs" and lately, a "sport" where the "score" is kept based on electricity produced.
Well as I've been pointing out, there already IS a flyoff.  There has been the whole time.  Considering the ease of communicating via the internet, we can consider it, as I've said many times over the years (and you copy it) a "virtual" flyoff, or let's say a real-life flyoff that encompasses all locations.  And yes Virginia, there always HAS been a game where you "score points" by generating electricity - It's called the wind energy industry.
The fact of you spending 12 years talking about it, yet not participating, is not a good sign for the themes you promote.  Rather it seems you believe if you pretend the flyoff and game do not exist, you can buy more time for more nothingness, a few more years perhaps, and yet keep pretending relevance in the field of AWE.
Yes there IS a flyoff.  You never showed up.
There IS a game where you get points for making electricity.  The going rate is 4 cents/kWh.  You're not a player.  Why? Nobody is arguing that phonons are not a known concept.  The question is what the heck do they have to do with you or anything you do?  Wind energy is hard to understand for beginners, but simple for people who "get it".  More and more "big words" are not going to save you.  Say, is that smoke coming out of your ears?  I think maybe your brain is overheating!
I don't think Google or Wikipedia re going to save you.
Somebody get a fire extinguisher!


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25384 From: dave santos Date: 3/27/2019
Subject: Tight-8 test with Ozone Frenzy 4.5m2
Flew a fine session today, up above trees from a narrow road aligned with the wind. The Frenzy is a low AR power kite that turns well, suited for landboard and buggy freestyle.

It was easy to confirm that tight 8s of perhaps .5 pattern solidity still produced high power close to what longer sweep produces. Full power was felt around .3 solidity. Good coordinated turns were applied. This is a nice result for tight power sweeping hopes. 

Anyone who does not believe in AWE should fly power kites. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25385 From: dave santos Date: 3/28/2019
Subject: Re: Tight-8 test with Ozone Frenzy 4.5m2
Roughly defining kite "Pattern Solidity" as the ratio of sweep area to a flight pattern's total bounded area.

Compare with "Rotor Solidity", which is the ratio of blade area to swept-disc area.

Not quite the same thing, but a similar relation.



 

Flew a fine session today, up above trees from a narrow road aligned with the wind. The Frenzy is a low AR power kite that turns well, suited for landboard and buggy freestyle.

It was easy to confirm that tight 8s of perhaps .5 pattern solidity still produced high power close to what longer sweep produces. Full power was felt around .3 solidity. Good coordinated turns were applied. This is a nice result for tight power sweeping hopes. 

Anyone who does not believe in AWE should fly power kites. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25386 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/28/2019
Subject: Re: Relation of Phonon Science to Mechanical Engineering not in doub
"This state could never have existed naturally anywhere in the universe," added Cornell. "So the sample in our lab is the only chunk of this stuff in the universe, unless it is in a lab in some other solar system."
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25387 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/28/2019
Subject: AWE measurements ... new era
"The revised SI is set to be implemented on May 20, 2019. If implemented as expected, all measures of mass — whether an eyelash or an airplane — could, if measured with the same technology, be equally accurate and precise. "     Source        [bold added]
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25388 From: dave santos Date: 3/28/2019
Subject: Pulley/Block/Bull-Wheel Line/Rope Notes
A sailboat racing block that fits in you hand can cost hundreds of dollars but last a lifetime. The lines don't last as long, of course, and large block-size does reduce high-duty wear, but the size-cost relation in sailing hardware is fine-tuned by long historic experience.

Bull wheels are large blocks that not only confer mechanical advantage, but also are easier on lines, spreading forces over more distance. Golden-age rope-driving found that rubber block surface protects rope surface. Rubber cannot work so well on a small block radius, with higher point forces.

Lines can be sheathed in a wear-resistant cover periodically replaced for large lines, as cost dictates, also conferring UV protection. Sections of lines can be extra-durable and load applied only at the durable sections. A novel pulley-loop might even be designed to "jitter", only fully loading as a durable section passes.

Blocks are expensive jewelry when shopped for in yachting, but the basic mechanism is just a wheel (sheave), a shell (block), and an axle (pin), and such parts are common and cheap, especially as quality salvage for one-off prototyping. The most tricky requirement is keeping line always in the groove of DIY bull wheels, but there are various solutions of close-shelling, using direction tubes, idler tension-pulleys (adding circumferential friction/grab from the slack side).

We have a great DIY AWES hacker source of pulley wheels at any working bike repair shop. A bike rim is already the right shape, as tube and tire are rope-like, with similar loadings. Take a tube and cut out a rubber-band to stretch over a rim, and presto, a first-class rubber-lined pulley-wheel. Extremely fine but old bike wheels are scrapped, and select bike frames have usable structure that can be hacked out to mount standard wheels. Be sure to choose safety drop-outs or do whatever it takes to never have an axle pull loose from its shell, since kite pull and the weight of a bike rider on a road act differently on the axle and frame.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25389 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/28/2019
Subject: Re: Relation of Phonon Science to Mechanical Engineering not in doub
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25390 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/28/2019
Subject: Re: Relation of Phonon Science to Mechanical Engineering not in doub
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25391 From: gordon_sp Date: 3/28/2019
Subject: Re: Isotropic kite [1 Attachment]


Based on the phenomenon of harmonic oscillation of a restrained kite, I wonder what the frequency and amplitude of oscillation would be if the kite size was dramatically enlarged.  Can the amplitude be enhanced by continuous adjustments in the lengths of the tethers?  My feeling is that rather than tapping the power of oscillation we should consider it a form of crosswind flight.  If turbines (DougS,GordonS), parotors (PierreB), daisies (RodR), and MAR1 (ChristofB) are hung from the kite, then crosswind action will manifest itself as an increase in effective wind velocity on those devices.  Since power output varies with the cube of the wind velocity, a 10% increase in effective velocity will result in a 33% increase in power output.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25392 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/28/2019
Subject: Final report for AWESCO project submitted
Final report for AWESCO project submitted
"With every project also come some administrative tasks. That also holds for our AWESCO doctoral training network, which has officially ended in December 2018."
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25393 From: dave santos Date: 3/28/2019
Subject: Re: Isotropic kite
Hi Gordon,

As a real-world kite grows larger, its inherent frequency of oscillation slows not just by being a larger oscillator, but also because wind velocity remains constant (disregarding gradient). This is a key non-dimensional wind velocity factor that many AWES design scaling hopes disregard.

Good point that crosswind-oscillation is the best kind, under crosswind-power assumption. Harvesting energy with rotors mounted on the oscillator is an option, but so is tapping oscillation at the surface, with less losses generally, and less complexity aloft.

daveS



 


Based on the phenomenon of harmonic oscillation of a restrained kite, I wonder what the frequency and amplitude of oscillation would be if the kite size was dramatically enlarged.  Can the amplitude be enhanced by continuous adjustments in the lengths of the tethers?  My feeling is that rather than tapping the power of oscillation we should consider it a form of crosswind flight.  If turbines (DougS,GordonS), parotors (PierreB), daisies (RodR), and MAR1 (ChristofB) are hung from the kite, then crosswind action will manifest itself as an increase in effective wind velocity on those devices.  Since power output varies with the cube of the wind velocity, a 10% increase in effective velocity will result in a 33% increase in power output.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25394 From: dave santos Date: 3/28/2019
Subject: Re: Pulley/Block/Bull-Wheel Line/Rope Notes
A note on capstans, defined here as a sheave with multiple wraps for friction. A misconception on the New Forum is that the capstan's constant introduction of twist is problematic. KiteMotor1 research noted that the line-loop does not twist up because the whole loop is continuously self-inverting like a smoke-ring, with no difficulty. Another capstan secret is taper, visible on sailing winches, which reduces friction hold toward the tailing slack side and mey help prevent line crossover.

Correcting poor usage in previous message; a Bull Wheel is a Sheave, and tends not to have a Shell, so Block is not the best identification; Pulley is better.



 

A sailboat racing block that fits in you hand can cost hundreds of dollars but last a lifetime. The lines don't last as long, of course, and large block-size does reduce high-duty wear, but the size-cost relation in sailing hardware is fine-tuned by long historic experience.

Bull wheels are large blocks that not only confer mechanical advantage, but also are easier on lines, spreading forces over more distance. Golden-age rope-driving found that rubber block surface protects rope surface. Rubber cannot work so well on a small block radius, with higher point forces.

Lines can be sheathed in a wear-resistant cover periodically replaced for large lines, as cost dictates, also conferring UV protection. Sections of lines can be extra-durable and load applied only at the durable sections. A novel pulley-loop might even be designed to "jitter", only fully loading as a durable section passes.

Blocks are expensive jewelry when shopped for in yachting, but the basic mechanism is just a wheel (sheave), a shell (block), and an axle (pin), and such parts are common and cheap, especially as quality salvage for one-off prototyping. The most tricky requirement is keeping line always in the groove of DIY bull wheels, but there are various solutions of close-shelling, using direction tubes, idler tension-pulleys (adding circumferential friction/grab from the slack side).

We have a great DIY AWES hacker source of pulley wheels at any working bike repair shop. A bike rim is already the right shape, as tube and tire are rope-like, with similar loadings. Take a tube and cut out a rubber-band to stretch over a rim, and presto, a first-class rubber-lined pulley-wheel. Extremely fine but old bike wheels are scrapped, and select bike frames have usable structure that can be hacked out to mount standard wheels. Be sure to choose safety drop-outs or do whatever it takes to never have an axle pull loose from its shell, since kite pull and the weight of a bike rider on a road act differently on the axle and frame.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25395 From: gordon_sp Date: 3/28/2019
Subject: Re: Peter Lynn gets his mojo back, SS progress to continue

We agree that scale-up of single skin or LEI kites is more favorable than rigid wings.  However, according to Peter Lynn and others, larger kites become more unstable.  Does this apply to restrained kites?   A large SS sled kite with diagonal (say45⁰) tethers at the four corners should be stable even if the winds are low.  Are there limits to the scale-up of a restrained kite?  Is the lifting force truly proportional to the kite area, or are there other factors involved?

My concept is to separate the function of the kite and the energy generating device(s).  The lifter kite replaces the tower in conventional HAWT systems and its sole purpose is to support other energy generating devices at the highest permissible altitude where the winds are favorable.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25396 From: dave santos Date: 3/28/2019
Subject: Re: Final report for AWESCO project submitted
Roland:  "Please do not hesitate to provide feedback on this summary, for example, if you have an idea about the impact of the project."

AWESCO fell short in experimental and theoretic design by unwisely adopting the reeling architecture as a default down-select, rather than a broader more foundational study of the entire AWE engineering-science space. There does not seem to be a single major new inventive leap, just elaboration of known art. Thus there seems to be little AWESCO impact to AWE R&D as a whole, but there was modest progress in many details, and the students did good work within conceptual constraints imposed.

Can anyone name breakthrough results by this large well funded AWE program? 



 

Final report for AWESCO project submitted
"With every project also come some administrative tasks. That also holds for our AWESCO doctoral training network, which has officially ended in December 2018."
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25397 From: dave santos Date: 3/28/2019
Subject: Re: Peter Lynn gets his mojo back, SS progress to continue
Most of the perceived extra instability of PL's large kite experience is due to marginal non-dimensional wind velocity and non-dimensional line-length. Kiteflyers know that in marginal wind, a kite is more restless in flight than in a fresher breeze, and that a short-lined SLK tends to oscillate faster and more wildly. Staked-out topological-stability is the design remedy.



 

We agree that scale-up of single skin or LEI kites is more favorable than rigid wings.  However, according to Peter Lynn and others, larger kites become more unstable.  Does this apply to restrained kites?   A large SS sled kite with diagonal (say45⁰) tethers at the four corners should be stable even if the winds are low.  Are there limits to the scale-up of a restrained kite?  Is the lifting force truly proportional to the kite area, or are there other factors involved?

My concept is to separate the function of the kite and the energy generating device(s).  The lifter kite replaces the tower in conventional HAWT systems and its sole purpose is to support other energy generating devices at the highest permissible altitude where the winds are favorable.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25398 From: dave santos Date: 3/28/2019
Subject: Re: AWE measurements ... new era
The tradition of precision refinement continue, however far from complete. Even the new constants are not perfect constants. Stand the old ruler on end, and its shorter, and the new light-based ruler shorter too, but by a smaller factor. There is no clean spacetime vacuum to reference, its all a seething mess of quantum noise. The only known constants seem to be integer math, including counting quanta, and persistent topology. Mass-Energy in Space-Time is squishy at our finest scales, with no true fixed metrics at any scale, as far as we know. 

Pray no one coughs on the IPK, just wiping it too clean ruin it.



 

"The revised SI is set to be implemented on May 20, 2019. If implemented as expected, all measures of mass — whether an eyelash or an airplane — could, if measured with the same technology, be equally accurate and precise.. "     Source        [bold added]
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25399 From: dave santos Date: 3/28/2019
Subject: Re: AWE measurements ... new era
Where this topic leads is to imagine kites flying at the very limits of physical reality, where normal rules break down, like kites covered in clocks lowered into rapidly spinning black holes, or a wormhole between universes as Wayne's tethered wing pair. Throw away your 1m platinum-iridium crowbar.



 

The tradition of precision refinement continue, however far from complete. Even the new constants are not perfect constants. Stand the old ruler on end, and its shorter, and the new light-based ruler shorter too, but by a smaller factor. There is no clean spacetime vacuum to reference, its all a seething mess of quantum noise. The only known constants seem to be integer math, including counting quanta, and persistent topology. Mass-Energy in Space-Time is squishy at our finest scales, with no true fixed metrics at any scale, as far as we know. 

Pray no one coughs on the IPK, just wiping it too clean ruin it.

On ‎Thursday‎, ‎March‎ ‎28‎, ‎2019‎ ‎10‎:‎03‎:‎40‎ ‎AM‎ ‎CDT, Joe Faust joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


 

"The revised SI is set to be implemented on May 20, 2019. If implemented as expected, all measures of mass — whether an eyelash or an airplane — could, if measured with the same technology, be equally accurate and precise.. "     Source        [bold added]
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25400 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/28/2019
Subject: Re: Peter Lynn gets his mojo back, SS progress to continue

as a preamble to scaling questions ...

Earth-surround kite systems have some discussions in our forum.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25401 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/28/2019
Subject: Fwd: 🔧 Kiwee, The flying wind turbine 🔨



Power your life anywhere / Produit ton électricité là où tu es.

Kitewinder is a french company specialized in designing and producing airborne wind-turbines.
Kitewinder est une PME française spécialisée dans la conception et la fabrication d'éoliennes portées par cerf-volant.

 One Month / One Part
 
This month take a cloth look at Kiwee One's generator. Transmission principle, assembly and design, we show you every bit of this Kiwee's part.

Ce mois ci, focus sur la génératrice de Kiwee One. Principe de transmission, assemblage et design, on vous montre tout de cet élément.                                            
More Pics ?

Pre-sale Period


Pre sale period is still on! First delivery in August 2019. On a boat, on a car, while camping or during your kite-surf sessions,kiwee can follow you everywhere.

La période de prévente est toujours ouverte. Que ce soit pour un bateau, une voiture, pour camper ou durant vos sessions Kite-surf, Kiwee vous suit partout.

 
How do I get mine ?


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Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25402 From: dave santos Date: 3/29/2019
Subject: First double-piloting of Drone and Kite
Attachments :

    More news soon on Drone-Kite Combined Operations Research.



    		   @@attachment@@
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25403 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/29/2019
    Subject: General AWE Videos
    General AWE Videos   
    ===========================
    https://youtu.be/puCQOyI7KpU

    Kite Power can replace traditional wind turbines: harvest wind energy with a lightweight Kite

    =======================================

    ============================

    MAN + KITE + KITEBOARD + BICYCLE + LONGBOARD + HANDS + DRONE + CYPRUS

    ============================

    Kite Power Solutions: The new way of harnessing wind energy

    =======================================

    Similars are invited over the coming years 
    for this topic thread, a collection. 
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25404 From: dave santos Date: 3/29/2019
    Subject: Re: First double-piloting of Drone and Kite [1 Attachment]
    Brooks is an old pal from Silicon Barrio and Robot Group days 30+ yrs ago, when another friend, software/firmware engineer, Alex Isles, brought back to Austin the first gyro-stabilized quad-copter from Japan, a marvel of foam and electronics, with tiny brass flywheel gyros. It was passed around to try it, and we had to make our own replacement blades. Brooks became the top quad pilot for Robot Group events (I worked animatronic blimps and tethered flying effects and my brother was similarly an early adept with e-copters). 

    Brooks' early mastery of the quadcopter piloting made him the first highly skilled drone pilot in US of this type. His flying skills qualify him for team flying with pros half his age. He was able to loop around the kite while keeping the camera aimed. I also watched him fly wild high-speed aerobatics thru open forest, only crashing twice, with a long pole handy to bring down a treed drone. The drone just bounced off of cactus.

    Brooks now makes his own drones, including flying sculptural gems of acid-etched aluminum, and plans to bring a lot of drone-based special light and pyro effects to ongoing kPower AWEfest R&D. The kite-drone stunt happened because I jammed the kite winder in his legs while he was helpless under the hood.

    Active kPower testing of combined kite-drone operational research has several goals- Remote FPV (First Person Viewing) to and from kite, airborne charging with AWE, soft-kite launching assist, etc.. Many specific methods are Open-AWE_IP-Cloud





     
    [Attachment(s) from dave santos included below]


    More news soon on Drone-Kite Combined Operations Research.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25405 From: dave santos Date: 3/29/2019
    Subject: Re: Pulley/Block/Bull-Wheel Line/Rope Notes
    Anonymous New Forum moderator, Windy Skies, responded to this thread in part thus- 

    "(Sheathes) do not, I think, protect the core of the rope as the rope is loaded? They also make it difficult to judge the condition of the rope so you can’t just replace the visibly damaged part."

    As reported here in the past, ultrasonic and sonic inspection methods faithfully reveal internal line condition. A ping input on a tensioned line sends back diagnostic echoes from weak points. Replacing line damage by splicing can be problematic, given labor and technical issues. Splices must run free around pulleys and not reduce strength. It will often be better to decommission damaged lines, reusing undamaged sections in shorter rigs.
    ----
    Noting also a 19th Century difference-of-opinion over rubber-lined sheaves, with critique from Rope Driving Treatise and endorsement from a vintage French Low-Tech Magazine reference. No doubt rubber works well or not in specific conditions. Treatise recommends bare cast iron sheave surface; probably correct for very large bull wheels, while heavily loaded smaller radius sheaves may benefit from quality rubber surfacing. 

    The worst case is briefly seen in KPS video linked earlier today, where the line suddenly jumps out of the sheave and wears on groove edge and block. Resulting early extensive line damage is seem as light patches on the spooled line.



     

    A note on capstans, defined here as a sheave with multiple wraps for friction. A misconception on the New Forum is that the capstan's constant introduction of twist is problematic. KiteMotor1 research noted that the line-loop does not twist up because the whole loop is continuously self-inverting like a smoke-ring, with no difficulty. Another capstan secret is taper, visible on sailing winches, which reduces friction hold toward the tailing slack side and mey help prevent line crossover.

    Correcting poor usage in previous message; a Bull Wheel is a Sheave, and tends not to have a Shell, so Block is not the best identification; Pulley is better.

    On ‎Thursday‎, ‎March‎ ‎28‎, ‎2019‎ ‎10‎:‎16‎:‎46‎ ‎AM‎ ‎CDT, dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


     

    A sailboat racing block that fits in you hand can cost hundreds of dollars but last a lifetime. The lines don't last as long, of course, and large block-size does reduce high-duty wear, but the size-cost relation in sailing hardware is fine-tuned by long historic experience.

    Bull wheels are large blocks that not only confer mechanical advantage, but also are easier on lines, spreading forces over more distance. Golden-age rope-driving found that rubber block surface protects rope surface. Rubber cannot work so well on a small block radius, with higher point forces.

    Lines can be sheathed in a wear-resistant cover periodically replaced for large lines, as cost dictates, also conferring UV protection. Sections of lines can be extra-durable and load applied only at the durable sections. A novel pulley-loop might even be designed to "jitter", only fully loading as a durable section passes.

    Blocks are expensive jewelry when shopped for in yachting, but the basic mechanism is just a wheel (sheave), a shell (block), and an axle (pin), and such parts are common and cheap, especially as quality salvage for one-off prototyping. The most tricky requirement is keeping line always in the groove of DIY bull wheels, but there are various solutions of close-shelling, using direction tubes, idler tension-pulleys (adding circumferential friction/grab from the slack side).

    We have a great DIY AWES hacker source of pulley wheels at any working bike repair shop. A bike rim is already the right shape, as tube and tire are rope-like, with similar loadings. Take a tube and cut out a rubber-band to stretch over a rim, and presto, a first-class rubber-lined pulley-wheel. Extremely fine but old bike wheels are scrapped, and select bike frames have usable structure that can be hacked out to mount standard wheels. Be sure to choose safety drop-outs or do whatever it takes to never have an axle pull loose from its shell, since kite pull and the weight of a bike rider on a road act differently on the axle and frame.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25406 From: dave santos Date: 3/29/2019
    Subject: Re: First double-piloting of Drone and Kite
    Like JoeF, Brooks is an early modern hang-gliding pioneer, noted for flying in low lift when no one else could stay up, Texas' highest brain-to-mass pilot. Brooks' father was the top NASA space shuttle acoustics engineer, who kindly mentored many of us in Austin, who created a superior early competitor to MATLAB that failed to secure VC. Brook's brother carries on the family phonon-biz with an aerospace vibration testing lab. kPower is lucky to have the Colemans joining its AWE R&D circle.

    On a related track; Brooks reveals that Robofest, which I founded in Austin at Discovery Hall in 1990, jumped to SF Bay Area by talents Ben Davis and Paco Nathan producing a version, then cloned by Wiley to become Maker's Faire franchise. I was not around when Brooks gave Makers permission to clone Robofest, but serious consideration is overdue.  Ironically, Makani's founding circle coalesced around the SF Maker "movement", never imagining me the originator. Nor did I know the Robofest direct-connection when I read Dave Culp's Maker zines in KiteShip's desert testing lab bathroom. 

    Survival Research Laboratories is our true SF merit-peer, that we hosted in Austin. Wiley's Maker brand is a nauseating corporate rip-off compared to our authentic guerilla DIY counter-culture circles. Wiley did at least publish early AWE demos by volunteer contributors, that we duly reviewed. My brother was laid-off by a cash-laden Wiley when his pioneering psychometric software employer (Profiles International) was bought up and gutted.

    AWE is an ongoing dramatic human and kite saga, a grand contest between corporate and DIY culture, with academia in the middle.


     

    Brooks is an old pal from Silicon Barrio and Robot Group days 30+ yrs ago, when another friend, software/firmware engineer, Alex Isles, brought back to Austin the first gyro-stabilized quad-copter from Japan, a marvel of foam and electronics, with tiny brass flywheel gyros. It was passed around to try it, and we had to make our own replacement blades. Brooks became the top quad pilot for Robot Group events (I worked animatronic blimps and tethered flying effects and my brother was similarly an early adept with e-copters). 

    Brooks' early mastery of the quadcopter piloting made him the first highly skilled drone pilot in US of this type. His flying skills qualify him for team flying with pros half his age. He was able to loop around the kite while keeping the camera aimed. I also watched him fly wild high-speed aerobatics thru open forest, only crashing twice, with a long pole handy to bring down a treed drone. The drone just bounced off of cactus.

    Brooks now makes his own drones, including flying sculptural gems of acid-etched aluminum, and plans to bring a lot of drone-based special light and pyro effects to ongoing kPower AWEfest R&D. The kite-drone stunt happened because I jammed the kite winder in his legs while he was helpless under the hood.

    Active kPower testing of combined kite-drone operational research has several goals- Remote FPV (First Person Viewing) to and from kite, airborne charging with AWE, soft-kite launching assist, etc.. Many specific methods are Open-AWE_IP-Cloud



    On ‎Friday‎, ‎March‎ ‎29‎, ‎2019‎ ‎08‎:‎57‎:‎55‎ ‎AM‎ ‎CDT, dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


     
    [Attachment(s) from dave santos included below]


    More news soon on Drone-Kite Combined Operations Research.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25407 From: dave santos Date: 3/29/2019
    Subject: Theoretic Paleo-Kite Cultures
    Kite tech is known quite ancient, with many late stone-age cultures documented, but the archeology is poorly represented due to the ephemeral nature of organic string and cloth. This leaves open speculation as to just how far ancient kites could have developed. About 1 in 20 people that ever lived live today, so there was plenty of bygone brain power and millennia for lost traditions of kite refinement.

    In high wind, a kite is like a loaded gun. Many a paleo tent in storm must have gone airborne spontaneously with people caught up. Indeed, wherever quantities of rope, membrane, and wind happen, kite effects are probable. For some rare genius to invent the kite was not necessary, just as the Hellenic fabric wrap is shown flying like a kite that no one is needed to specially create. 

    Taken to less probable but still possible scenarios, absolutely brilliant kite cultures could have arisen and died out, and only exist as dim mythology. For example, Biblical descriptions of Seraphim as multi-wing creatures may be a folk memory of ancient Chinese kites that perhaps radiated across Eurasia in that time. Its remotely possible that nomadic kite flying cultures flew simple kites for magical and strategic reasons, as they migrated widely, and awestruck locals classed such kites as supernatural beings.

    We still have no idea just how advanced and extensive early Chinese historical human flying by kite was in doing futuristic aerial bombardment and other feats by kites that may have derived from far older traditions of comparable or even superior capability. Its thought in archeology that a "String Revolution", including weaving, helped propel modern human evolution, starting at least 200k yrs ago. Perhaps the kite was always known to the first modern humans, as the very heart of the mind-expanding journey of human progress.

    Its not so improbable that paleo kites were technically beyond anything else until modern times. After all, the Stone Age returning boomerang was more technically advanced than any other personal artifact known until the Renaissance pocket watch. Lost paleo-kites could have exceeded even the boomerang in technical sophistication. Human aviation may be far older than anyone has imagined.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25408 From: dave santos Date: 3/29/2019
    Subject: 2015 TwingTec Kite-Fuel Hybrid Plant Concept
    In [Airborne Wind Energy Systems: A review of the technologies; Cherubini et al, 2015]
    Twing Tec is cited for a kite-fuel hybrid plant concept. Wonder who has priority in kite-hybrid
    thinking, which has a long history here. Nice to see this third-party agreement on the idea.

    "The AWES will supply continuous and reliable electrical power thanks to the integration
    with conventional diesel generators [44,45]."

    44] Houle C, Costa D, Galliot C, Gohl F, Luchsinger RH. Mobile Wind farms using
    tethered wings –technical and economic considerations. Abstract submitted
    to the Airborne Wind Energy Conference. TU Delft. 2015.
    [45] Luchsinger R, Aregger D, Bezard F, Costa D, Galliot C, Gohl F, et al. Closing the
    gap: pumping cycle kite power with twings. Abstract submitted to the
    Airborne Wind Energy Conference. TU Delft; 2015.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25409 From: dave santos Date: 3/30/2019
    Subject: Re: 2015 TwingTec Kite-Fuel Hybrid Plant Concept
     A DIY kite hybrid technical note; that a fuel engine's shaft-power output, under a simple RPM governor, can be mixed with a variable kite shaft output, and variable generator load-demand on the shaft, for overall voltage output to be maintained more or less constant. An engine governor does distinguish changes in kite-power and load-demand.

    The main operational requirement is that kite and load fluctuation rates not exceed reaction time and amplitude of the fuel engine throttle, which is ensured by balanced system design. A simple governed output is not precise enough for all uses, so a final power conditioning stage on the load is normal. For the kite's part, rig elasticity and flywheel mass can buffer the sort of kite "shocks"* that can occur on the output.

    Quite a bit of true baseload power could come from kite-hybrid input when wind is blowing. The kite-quiver principle yields maximum theoretic kite power to the mix.

    --------
    * While variable kite motion is relatively slow and smooth, fast harmonic shocks can develop in a low-stretch rig, like when lines suddenly snub-up from slack to high tension; and in transmissions when clutches grab too quickly, and mechanical backlash effects.


     

    In [Airborne Wind Energy Systems: A review of the technologies; Cherubini et al, 2015]
    Twing Tec is cited for a kite-fuel hybrid plant concept. Wonder who has priority in kite-hybrid
    thinking, which has a long history here. Nice to see this third-party agreement on the idea.

    "The AWES will supply continuous and reliable electrical power thanks to the integration
    with conventional diesel generators [44,45]."

    44] Houle C, Costa D, Galliot C, Gohl F, Luchsinger RH. Mobile Wind farms using
    tethered wings –technical and economic considerations. Abstract submitted
    to the Airborne Wind Energy Conference. TU Delft. 2015.
    [45] Luchsinger R, Aregger D, Bezard F, Costa D, Galliot C, Gohl F, et al. Closing the
    gap: pumping cycle kite power with twings. Abstract submitted to the
    Airborne Wind Energy Conference. TU Delft; 2015.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25410 From: dave santos Date: 3/30/2019
    Subject: Kitewinder reaches AWES sales milestone- "a hundred sales so far"
    Congratulations to Kitewinder; Olivier reports on New Forum- 

    "We made a hundred sales so far...delivery will be in August"
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25411 From: dave santos Date: 3/30/2019
    Subject: “Jesus will solve AWE” Debate Continues
    Attachments :
      Doug writes on the New Forum-

      "I heard many times at the first high-altitude wind power conference in 2009: “Jesus will solve AWE”, an idea floated by the illustrious Wayne German, credited with being the overriding main genius of AWE at that first conference (by the guys running the Yahoo forum). Wayne put meteorologist Cristina Archer on the spot, knowing he could get her to say she agreed, since she was from Italy and would have been brought up Catholic. Another slam-dunk technological innovation by Wayne, eh?"

      There is no "overriding main genius of AWE", but many geniuses, past and present. I spent a summer working with Wayne and never heard him say the sort of un-nuanced claim Doug heard, but cannot believe. Scholars can agree Jesus is Biblically credited with controlling the winds, and almost certainly could operate a Kiwee1, al least given printed instructions in Aramaic. 

      Latest outrageous kPower claim- Wubbo is flying kites with Jesus.
      		   @@attachment@@
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25412 From: dave santos Date: 3/30/2019
      Subject: Solving AWE as a "Wicked Problem" (Classic Planning Science)
      Why AWE is far more than a person, patent, or prototype can solve? 

      Here is Ritter and Webber's classic "wicked problem" formal analysis of the Designer's or Planner's Dilemma, with obvious applicability to our collective R&D-


      Wicked-problem solutions must emerge organically, in due time, not on-demand.
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25413 From: dave santos Date: 3/30/2019
      Subject: Re: Solving AWE as a "Wicked Problem" (Classic Planning Science)
      Correcting to "Rittel and Webber". Here is WP WP article-

      Wicked problem






       

      Why AWE is far more than a person, patent, or prototype can solve? 

      Here is Ritter and Webber's classic "wicked problem" formal analysis of the Designer's or Planner's Dilemma, with obvious applicability to our collective R&D-


      Wicked-problem solutions must emerge organically, in due time, not on-demand.
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25414 From: dave santos Date: 3/30/2019
      Subject: Automated Magnetic Wire-Rope Testing
      Adding to past discussions of advancing polymer rope inspection tech-





      Magnetic Rope Testing (Magnetic Flux Leakage Detection)

      Magnetic Rope Testing (MRT) is the method of applying a magnetic field to a wire rope and converting data to a useable form of measurement. Our new digital equipment allows us to consistently detect, evaluate and monitor the condition of a wire rope, inside and out, from test to test.
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25415 From: dave santos Date: 3/30/2019
      Subject: Re: Automated Magnetic Wire-Rope Testing
      Helping Windy Skies find requested citations, despite not being informed who I am helping. Windy Skies also tries to enforce untechnical writing, as well, as major cause to skip the New Forum. This Old Forum help won't continue indefinitely-

      Williams, J.H., Hainsworth, J. and Lee, S.S. (1984),  Acoustic-ultrasonic non
      destructive evaluation of double-braided nylon ropes using the stress wave factor, Fibre Science and Technology, 21(1984), pp 169-180. 

      As summarized in [Condition monitoring techniques for fibre mooring ropes, Rebel, et al, 2000]-

      "Williams and Lee (9) found that Acoustic Emission (AE) is generated randomly throughout a sample for up to 60 % to 70 % of the break load, after which most of the AE is concentrated in a more localised area which would be the eventual failure location.  The tests were conducted on a new double-braided 6.3 mm diameter nylon rope in the dry condition at room temperature. A parameter called the "AE load delay" was defined as the tensile load required to produce a specified low baseline level of AE activity.  It was also observed that the AE load delay can be correlated with the ultimate breaking load of a rope with cut core yarns and with a variety of stress concentrating knots. "

      --------------
      Could not instantly find the old rubber-lined pulley mention I recall on LowTech, so here is a current substitute link validating the method-

      Rubber Roller and pulleys Manufacturing| Sioux Rubber










       

      Adding to past discussions of advancing polymer rope inspection tech-





      Magnetic Rope Testing (Magnetic Flux Leakage Detection)

      Magnetic Rope Testing (MRT) is the method of applying a magnetic field to a wire rope and converting data to a useable form of measurement. Our new digital equipment allows us to consistently detect, evaluate and monitor the condition of a wire rope, inside and out, from test to test.
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25416 From: dave santos Date: 3/30/2019
      Subject: foil board kits
      These nice kits make advanced wood paravanes affordable for the masses (compare with 2008 KiteLab Ilwaco version)-
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25417 From: dave santos Date: 3/30/2019
      Subject: Invented Chicken-Loop and Reinvented Larkshead Knot Instead
      The AWES Forum has been the best single source for who invented what in kites, As noted, Corey and his Boeing AE AWE visionary father, Billy, invented kiteboarding. DonM is just the luckiest (kite instructor to Google founders) and most self-promotional (see New Yorker feature)  modern kite tech inventor (compare with PeterL's key inventions with constant fake claims of failure). Google "invented" ad revenue on search results. KiteShip's Culp invented ship kites. Google (via Makani) bought KiteShip and killed it.

      Comments on article-

      1. Ron Kramer December 9, 2015 at 1:31 am

        Actually Corey Rosseler invented kite boarding. He was the first I ever saw do it and it was around 20 years ago. There was no gear, he had to build his own… and back then the kites didn’t have a hair filled skeleton yet. If the kite touched the water you were done for a while.

        Reply ↓
      2. Jim Naylor December 11, 2015 at 7:12 pm

        Don did not invent kiteboarding but he did innovate the control system for four line kites (the “Chicken Loop) that made kiteboarding much safer, easier and increased the usable wind range dramatically. If not for that one improvement there would be far fewer kiteboarders today.
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25418 From: dave santos Date: 3/30/2019
      Subject: Re: Invented Chicken-Loop and Reinvented Larkshead Knot Instead


      The original confusion in inventive attribution was by Forbes in 2015, because the fawning writer put too much juice on the pitch- 

      "(DonM) world-champion windsurfer who went on to literally help invent kiteboarding with Robby Naish and others. And oh yea, he also helped found a “little” alternative energy company—Makani Power—that was acquired in 2013 by  Google GOOGL +0.36% and is now part of the Google [x] team that’s working to make widespread clean energy a commercial reality."  (emphasis added)

      "Literally help(ed) invent" is at least literally true. Hundreds of past kite innovators, many we can name, also helped. DonM in the best sense represents all of us to the Forbes class, who are not too picky about kite claims.
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25419 From: Rod Read Date: 3/30/2019
      Subject: Re: Theoretic Paleo-Kite Cultures
      If you look closely at the Calanais stones you'll find the clues you're looking for 
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25420 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/30/2019
      Subject: Re: Theoretic Paleo-Kite Cultures
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25421 From: dave santos Date: 3/30/2019
      Subject: Re: Theoretic Paleo-Kite Cultures

      The Calanais stones do suggest a megakite anchor field that can double as a perch for visiting UFOs.

      The conspiracy part is how fast one is arrested if they try to reactivate the AWES.
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25422 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/30/2019
      Subject: Re: Theoretic Paleo-Kite Cultures
      Anachronistic ode to Read Daisy ....
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25423 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/30/2019
      Subject: Flying Wind Farms
      Flying Wind Farms
      ==============
      Types:
      1. Grow plants and animals on tethers and wings of kite systems. 
      2. Energy kite system as energy plant; have many such plants as "farm."
      3. Have small self-enclosed farms; fly those farms to people using kite systems. 
      4. ?
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25424 From: tallakt Date: 3/30/2019
      Subject: Re: Invented Chicken-Loop and Reinvented Larkshead Knot Instead
      I am not aware that Don Montague and Naish invented anything of importance in kitesurfing. They were a quality brand no doubt, but I dont see that they made any novel inventions (the sigma kite being their most prominent contribution, but it didnt really catch on. I am not sure if Don M was working on that project also)
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25425 From: Rod Read Date: 3/30/2019
      Subject: Re: Theoretic Paleo-Kite Cultures
      Dudes, well done spotting the ancient anchor field pattern. 
      But don't get carried away. It was grain grinding machine. 
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25426 From: dougselsam Date: 3/31/2019
      Subject: Re: “Jesus will solve AWE” Debate Continues
      Religion, sausage, and electric power, are products enjoyed by most, seldom understanding how they were produced.
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25427 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/31/2019
      Subject: Using kites to encourage people to vote
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25428 From: dougselsam Date: 3/31/2019
      Subject: Re: “Jesus will solve AWE” Debate Continues
      You were right there participating, in the same room.
      Why pretend it didn't happen?
      Aren't false statements about the future enough for you?
      It was also difficult for anyone to get a word in edgewise due to his repeated insistent interruptions claiming that the only AWE idea worth considering was two mutually-inter-reeling kites, generating onboard electricity which was to be converted to microwaves and beamed to ground-based receiving stations, then converted back to electricity.  I guess all those high-tension powerlines strung across the landscape were a waste of time - microwaves.  Hopefully the aim is perfect no matter what, and does not hit daveS's house, the system weighs next-to-nothing, and there are no significant losses.  So definite then.  Where is it today?


      ---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25429 From: dougselsam Date: 3/31/2019
      Subject: Re: Solving AWE as a "Wicked Problem" (Classic Planning Science)
      I don't know daveS, I've listened to a lot of (supposedly) "wicked smart" people explain how simple AWE is, including when they would start powering the grid.  I mean, look how many geniuses are involved!  Even you - look at the name kpower - generating power using kites.  Nice name, but when are you going to generate the power?  Should you change it to just k?  Just kites.  No power?  Too hard?  How about "k2hard"?
      What about retrofitting the GigaWatt plants using single-skin kites to spin the same generators powered by steam turbines?  Why not just do it?  You keep saying it.  Why, after so many years, is AWE suddenly such a hard problem?  It was going to be so easy!  Where did all those "geniuses" go?  Is it possible the people trying it are just not up to the task?  I recently read on the other forum that outperforming modern wind turbines using AWE was not realistic at all, mentioning that such lower-cost electricity from airborne wind energy was the original rationalization, as though they knew better.  I've got news for you.  In wind energy, yes you need some advantage over how it is done now, or why would anyone change?  You could point us to ten more wikipedia articles etc. per day for another 12 years and you won't move the needle any more than you have with the last 12 years of postings.  Of course, don't give me any credit for predicting this outcome from day-one.  I don't think I minced any words.  Well, some of us know more, and can see farther.  Others just consume the sausage (electricity), never really understanding what it takes to make it.
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25430 From: Santos Date: 4/1/2019
      Subject: Re: Solving AWE as a "Wicked Problem" (Classic Planning Science)
      Doug, Read the paper in order to comment more pertinently. You have claimed AWE is not very hard to master, but novel aviation is in fact demanding. Thank goodness there is so much talent contributing.
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25431 From: Santos Date: 4/1/2019
      Subject: Re: “Jesus will solve AWE” Debate Continues
      Doug is mistaken to attack his peers.
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 25432 From: Santos Date: 4/1/2019
      Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: “Jesus will solve AWE” Debate Continues
      It's an obvious fallacy to argue that engineering-science concerns the specific faith of any participant. Wayne's AWE concept work as lead in Boeing's Flight Research Institute will stand. It helped motivate his legendary mentor, Paul McCready, to enter AWE late in life. Burt Rutan also found Wayne brilliant. Many don't know Wayne's long humanitarian service and family struggles. It's mean-spirited to mock him. Let's celebrate his participation in AWE.