Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                          AWES 24425 to 24474 Page 380 of 440.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24425 From: dougselsam Date: 12/18/2018
Subject: Re: kiteKRAFT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24426 From: dougselsam Date: 12/18/2018
Subject: Coincidentally a fake-it-til-you-make-it story from the UK

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24427 From: Santos Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Review: Turbine-on-a-wing Reanalysis (and second "Betz-beater" c

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24428 From: dougselsam Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Death by kite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24429 From: Santos Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: kiteKRAFT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24430 From: Santos Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Reply to Doug's post// Re: [AWES] Re: W = m * g (NASA syntax) v

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24431 From: Santos Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Death by kite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24432 From: Santos Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Daisy with rigid blades

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24433 From: benhaiemp Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Review: Turbine-on-a-wing Reanalysis (and second "Betz-beater" c

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24434 From: dougselsam Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Review: Turbine-on-a-wing Reanalysis (and second "Betz-beater" c

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24435 From: Rod Read Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Daisy with rigid blades

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24436 From: Santos Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Daisy with rigid blades

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24437 From: benhaiemp Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Review: Turbine-on-a-wing Reanalysis (and second "Betz-beater" c

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24438 From: Rod Read Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Daisy with rigid blades

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24439 From: Santos Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Review: Turbine-on-a-wing Reanalysis (and second "Betz-beater" c

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24440 From: benhaiemp Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Review: Turbine-on-a-wing Reanalysis (and second "Betz-beater" c

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24441 From: Santos Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Daisy with rigid blades

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24442 From: Santos Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Review: Turbine-on-a-wing Reanalysis (and second "Betz-beater" c

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24443 From: benhaiemp Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Review: Turbine-on-a-wing Reanalysis (and second "Betz-beater" c

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24444 From: Santos Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Review: Turbine-on-a-wing Reanalysis (and second "Betz-beater" c

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24445 From: Rod Read Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Daisy with rigid blades

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24446 From: benhaiemp Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Review: Turbine-on-a-wing Reanalysis (and second "Betz-beater" c

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24447 From: Santos Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Daisy with rigid blades

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24448 From: Santos Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Review: Turbine-on-a-wing Reanalysis (and second "Betz-beater" c

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24449 From: benhaiemp Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Review: Turbine-on-a-wing Reanalysis (and second "Betz-beater" c

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24450 From: Santos Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Review: Turbine-on-a-wing Reanalysis (and second "Betz-beater" c

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24451 From: dougselsam Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: kiteKRAFT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24452 From: Santos Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: kiteKRAFT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24453 From: dougselsam Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Reply to Doug's post// Re: [AWES] Re: W = m * g (NASA syntax) v

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24454 From: dougselsam Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: kiteKRAFT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24455 From: Santos Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Reply to Doug's post// Re: [AWES] Re: W = m * g (NASA syntax) v

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24456 From: Santos Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: kiteKRAFT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24457 From: Rod Read Date: 12/20/2018
Subject: Re: Daisy with rigid blades

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24458 From: Santos Date: 12/20/2018
Subject: Re: Daisy with rigid blades

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24459 From: Santos Date: 12/20/2018
Subject: Re: Daisy with rigid blades

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24460 From: dougselsam Date: 12/20/2018
Subject: Re: Reply to Doug's post// Re: [AWES] Re: W = m * g (NASA syntax) v

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24461 From: dougselsam Date: 12/20/2018
Subject: Re: Daisy with rigid blades

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24462 From: Santos Date: 12/20/2018
Subject: Re: Reply to Doug's post// Re: [AWES] Re: W = m * g (NASA syntax) v

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24463 From: dougselsam Date: 12/20/2018
Subject: Re: kiteKRAFT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24464 From: Santos Date: 12/20/2018
Subject: Re: kiteKRAFT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24465 From: Santos Date: 12/20/2018
Subject: Re: kiteKRAFT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24466 From: dougselsam Date: 12/20/2018
Subject: Re: Reply to Doug's post// Re: [AWES] Re: W = m * g (NASA syntax) v

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24467 From: Santos Date: 12/20/2018
Subject: Re: Reply to Doug's post// Re: [AWES] Re: W = m * g (NASA syntax) v

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24468 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/20/2018
Subject: Moderator note

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24469 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/20/2018
Subject: Re: kiteKRAFT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24470 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/20/2018
Subject: Re: kiteKRAFT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24471 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/20/2018
Subject: Re: Moderator note

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24472 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/20/2018
Subject: Re: kiteKRAFT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24473 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/20/2018
Subject: Re: Moderator note

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24474 From: dougselsam Date: 12/20/2018
Subject: Re: Reply to Doug's post// Re: [AWES] Re: W = m * g (NASA syntax) v




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24425 From: dougselsam Date: 12/18/2018
Subject: Re: kiteKRAFT
On the positive side, this group is targeting a more realistic scale for a first product.  Start with powering one home, not hundreds or thousands.
Notice, they are not claiming they will power "X hundred homes in remote area Y".
Still, I see familiar red flags:  They're already offering a product for sale, but they've never built one.  Ding ding ding.  Their promo is sometimes worded in such a way as to indicate an existing system, but then you read further and realize it's just a dream at this stage.
They've got the obligatory "group selfie", as though the power of their personalities, visible through photography, will carry the project through any difficulties, or at least they can show actual people involved in some way.  Are they good-looking?  Well-dressed?  Posing properly?  The right mix of entrepreneurs and nerds, from a visual standpoint? 

What I've noticed in the current "climate" of "climate change" is anyone wanting to become an entrepreneur is "pushed" into a dishonest system, especially by "business incubators".  I remember the distraction of leaving the workshop to interact with these incubator/angel-investor types at their special events.  They were stuck in neutral, repeating the same tired clap-trap over and over:  What's your "elevator pitch!?!?"  Let's see your "business plan".  As though the same person with the idea is going to automatically understand business.  And the business people don't understand technology - all they understand is crafting a good-sounding story, with an impressive website, to raise money, so they can hire more and more "really smart people" - or so they think.
I can't tell you how many times I've heard the "really smart people" excuse for funding one more "sure-thing" vertical-axis turbine, for example.

These incubators, classes on how to apply for government grants, etc., even NREL, subtly push people toward a dishonest approach.  Their forte is "how to raise money".  They think how much money can be raised is what determines the success of a technology.  The talk of a "valley of death" for tech startups, where funding becomes scarce as a research program gets too expensive while floundering, or an early product struggles.  They never acknowledge that failure may occur due to a flawed concept or bad product design.  Just like a viable seed only needs water, soil, and sunlight,  viable business or product just needs a free market to thrive.  The problem with "push-a-rope" funding for "breakthroughs" is when they finally are exposed to that same free market.

I remember when Southwest Windpower, formerly the world's largest manufacturer of small wind turbines, "scored" 10 million in financing from GE Capital:  Or was it 20 million?  I saw that as "the end" of Southwest Windpower, which it was.  Why?  Their turbines were failing all over the place due to a single bad design feature, meanwhile they produced a few cents per hour of electricity on a good day, while shaking themselves apart.  Insiders knew of a warehouse, increasingly full of broken returns waiting to be sent back out so they could fail again in a few more months.  An unsustainable sustainable-energy business. 

For a turbine powering a single home, the value of the electricity produced per hour is often so small you would not bother to bend over and pick it up if you saw it on the ground.  Today, Southwest Windpower is long-gone, and even GE is about to possibly go bankrupt from bad loans of yesteryear.  They've recently been dropped  from the Dow 30, after 100 years.  Their stock is in the single digits nd they show zero profit.  Their quarterly dividend has been reduced to one cent.  That's the world's largest manufacturer of jet engines, and the US largest manufacturer of wind turbines today,  And that all happened during the peak of global warming hype.

Meanwhile the incubator crowd often mentions a business notion of "fake it til you make it".  Key term: "fake it".  Ya know - like Barry Madoff was doing?  What if your turbine that will produce a dime per hour can't be operationally-supported at a dime per hour?  What if just your pilot kite will wear out faster than a dime per hour?  What if it requires attention during operation?  So much for a dime per hour making a difference.
 
Let's look at all the wind energy breakthrough success stories coming from incubators and government-funding.  Let's see, there's... ummm, well OK I just can't think of one right now, but there must be quite a few, right?  Or, well, come on, there must be at least one, right?  Hmmmm...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24426 From: dougselsam Date: 12/18/2018
Subject: Coincidentally a fake-it-til-you-make-it story from the UK

Just ran across this story in the news feed - OMG!

Had to share this "fake it til you make it" news story from the UK.

The "UK" story starts out here in (very windy) Hesperia, California.  (my AWE testing property borders on city limits)
The opening scene starts at a white Christmas-tree tent between the Chevron (where I buy gas) and a (new) Wendy's - our new favorite place to grab a bite.
This guy started a totally fake band(?) and got a fake world tour:
Now?  Is it over? Some are impressed, others not so much.
Fake it til you make it!  Or til you don't.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24427 From: Santos Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Review: Turbine-on-a-wing Reanalysis (and second "Betz-beater" c
This is a Galilean Relativity problem overall, and a fractal structure problem close-up.  

Yes, rotor wakes trail downwind, and secondary rotor wakes are predicted by Taylor assumption to trail embedded within the helical primary wake. There is also Conservation of Energy Law prohibiting any hidden source of energy efficiency. 

The prediction here is that wake imaging will confirm embeddedness of secondary turbine wake, just as any drag feature will cause. There is no novel drag advantage. There is compounded drag with turbine-on-a-turbine. Let's await third party evidence.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24428 From: dougselsam Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Death by kite
So I guess paragliding "is" "AWE", or so we're told.
OK here's how they do it in India:
Note the photo at the end.  No shoes.  Shin bones protruding from holes in jeans.
The passenger seems disinterested from beginning to end.
People still trying to figure out what failed first - the carabiner breaking, or the canopy ripping.
One commenter said the canopy appeared to have been modified by cutting it in half and adding a middle section to increase the size for tandem use.  Sid they probably used the wrong thread.
Definitely a bad day.  No chute, no shoes, no service.
Reminds me of bad dreams when I was a kid, except I woke up.

Here's two hang-gliders hitting in midair but without causing a crash

Here's a hang-glider and a paraglider getting entangled in a midair collision


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24429 From: Santos Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: kiteKRAFT
What a large number of AWE ventures now aiming at a limited market for small unproven remote power systems. This start revives Joby's architecture, but only aims for 20kW. May the best tech win in this hotly contested niche market.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24430 From: Santos Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Reply to Doug's post// Re: [AWES] Re: W = m * g (NASA syntax) v
I recall black leads running to the back and batteries on the floor. Where did I claim "no batteries"? Maybe you misremember imagined slights. No load connected was my central observation. You seem to claim they were always connected without a controller despite risk.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24431 From: Santos Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Death by kite
Paragliding is AWE to the extent that upper wind is used to sustain flight. It's not seen as AWE by non-experts.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24432 From: Santos Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Daisy with rigid blades
Factually, winning is not the only thing in football, nor overspeed the only problem in AWE. Let Doug win by proving his claims.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24433 From: benhaiemp Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Review: Turbine-on-a-wing Reanalysis (and second "Betz-beater" c
This is a not supported statement. There is no second Betz limit, as confirmed and analyzed by Peter Jamieson. A description of the wake effect is also on http://drømstørre.dk/wp-content/wind/miller/windpower%20web/en/tour/wres/wake.htm.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24434 From: dougselsam Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Review: Turbine-on-a-wing Reanalysis (and second "Betz-beater" c
I think it comes down to the following thought experiment:
If you have a hypothetical wind turbine mounted on a frictionless truck, or on a frictionless car on railroad tracks, powered by a 1 kW motor, in still air, what proportion of that 1 kW can the wind turbine produce? 

Seems to me it might be more than the Betz coefficient.  The Betz coefficient does not measure the proportion of power extracted from air going through the rotor.  It measures the proportion of power extracted by a turbine, compared to the power in wind going through a similar area if the turbine were not there.  But a turbine being pushed through the air is going to form a bubble of air being pushed forward and to the sides that will not go through the turbine.  Someone smart like Betz would be able to tell you the answer, on paper, based on first principles.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24435 From: Rod Read Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Daisy with rigid blades
Yeah
A pie and bovril is apparently a big part of football 
And so is shouting "The referee's a wanker!" 
Off topic yet? 
Much prefer the newer AWES forum at awesystems.info 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24436 From: Santos Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Daisy with rigid blades
Sorry, Rod, to not notice the Daisy topic. 

With regard to overspeed as theoretic top concern, excess mass in scaling seems to be the more basic problem, to not simply be able to add enough strengthening mass to scale reliably. Unlike towers, AWE depends on landing and securing for wind storm events. The Daisy can rely multiple precautions for surge. Depowerable killable kites are not plagued by surge or overspeed.

Hoping the new AWE forum does even better than any before in adding to public knowledge.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24437 From: benhaiemp Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Review: Turbine-on-a-wing Reanalysis (and second "Betz-beater" c

From Jamieson's paper:


It has sparked a few misconceptions. One is that the Betz limit will


apply twice to the overall power conversion but, more curiously, another recent one is that


the secondary rotor can achieve a power coefficient of unity [22]. Discounting any ground


related effect, the power produced by a rotor must be exactly the same whether a wind



turbine system is stationary in an ambient wind field of velocity, V , or is mounted on


a vehicle (such as a moving wind turbine blade) and transported at velocity, V , through


still air. In either case the relative axial fluid velocity local to the rotor disc is not V but


V (1 a) where a is the axial induction factor at the rotor plane.




A brief analysis of the secondary rotor concept follows. It is clearly the thrust (and


not power) of the secondary rotor that provides reaction torque to extract power from the


primary rotor. It appears that extraction of power from the primary rotor is most efficient


when the axial induction of the secondary rotor is small. An interesting trade-off then arises


between having larger and therefore more expensive, lightly loaded secondary rotors to


improve efficiency and hence reduce cost of the major primary rotor system.



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24438 From: Rod Read Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Daisy with rigid blades
AWE does not depend on landing.
I think KPS made a 200mph claim on wind survivability.
Also, think there was a paper recently on parked mode in AWES?

How massive a wind can a daisy take? if the geometry and L/D balance and the wings are wee and able to take massive loading?
What does the upper limit depend on... Lift kite capability?, pitch spilling depower?  cyclic pitching for no Lift kite working?

An all winds ever up kite has to be the goal (not football)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24439 From: Santos Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Review: Turbine-on-a-wing Reanalysis (and second "Betz-beater" c
Where is better support for Jamison? Betz was stupid enough to be a top Nazi, and the famous "Law", now obsolete, was not even his original contribution. 

Let the question remain open whether Betz is "meaningless" in AWE; as our specialized literature states (Costello et al), v relying on Jamison, who does not connect AWE with Betz. Jamison's AWE understanding is poor, elsewhere in the same Springer reference. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24440 From: benhaiemp Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Review: Turbine-on-a-wing Reanalysis (and second "Betz-beater" c

Here:


The secondary rotors thereby


experience a much higher apparent wind speed than the ambient wind speed and can be of


comparatively small diameter, high speed, low torque and low weight. The idea is quite old,


possibly preceding patent applications of the 1980s and 1990s (Watson [19], St-Germain


[20] and Jack [21]). It has sparked a few misconceptions. One is that the Betz limit will


apply twice to the overall power conversion but, more curiously, another recent one is that


the secondary rotor can achieve a power coefficient of unity [22]. Discounting any ground


related effect, the power produced by a rotor must be exactly the same whether a wind



turbine system is stationary in an ambient wind field of velocity, V , or is mounted on


a vehicle (such as a moving wind turbine blade) and transported at velocity, V , through


still air. In either case the relative axial fluid velocity local to the rotor disc is not V but


V (1 a) where a is the axial induction factor at the rotor plane.




A brief analysis of the secondary rotor concept follows. It is clearly the thrust (and


not power) of the secondary rotor that provides reaction torque to extract power from the


primary rotor. It appears that extraction of power from the primary rotor is most efficient


when the axial induction of the secondary rotor is small. An interesting trade-off then arises


between having larger and therefore more expensive, lightly loaded secondary rotors to


improve efficiency and hence reduce cost of the major primary rotor system.


Notation:



Air density ρ


Primary rotor radius R


Primary rotor angular speed ω


Primary rotor blade number N


Secondary rotor radius r


Secondary rotor power coefficient Cp


Secondary rotor power coefficient Ct


Secondary rotor axial induction a


Drive Train Design 129


The primary rotor produces power P which is as usual subject to the Betz limit. In terms of


the thrust reaction T of each of the N secondary rotors and assuming for present convenience




that they are mounted at the tip of each blade,



P = NTRω


T = 0.5ρ (ωR)2 πr2Ct neglecting ambient wind speed compared to tip speed


P = N0.5ρ (ωR)2 πr2Ct


P = N0.5ρω3R3πr2Ct




The power extracted by the secondary rotors is



Pe = 0.5ρN (ωR)3 πr2Cp


Thus Pe




P




= Cp


Ct Considering the ideal Betz model:




If



Cp


Ct


= 4a (1 a)2


4a (1 a)


= (1 a) .


If the secondary rotor is optimised in its own right, then the usual choice of a = 1/3


applies and the overall limit is 16




27





1 13








= 0.395. This exceeds Betz squared by a little as


16




27



2 = 0.351.


However it is much better to trade reduced specific loading, Ct , on the secondary rotors


at the cost of making them a little bigger. In a specific design study a = 0.2 was about


optimum. Hence the ratio Pe/P is (1 0.2) = 0.8 and the overall limit is


16




27







× 0.8 =


0.474. The power coefficient of the secondary rotors is reduced to a theoretical limit of 4 ×


0.2 (1 0.2)2 = 0.512 and the secondary rotors are somewhat larger and more expensive




but this can be a very worthwhile trade off.




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24441 From: Santos Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Daisy with rigid blades
KPS does not claim it will eliminate landing to cope with storms. Aviation has always depended on landing. Birds, bats, and insects all depend on landing. Designing for storm forces poisons performance in more-probable wind. Kite pros land and switch kites. No kite matches optimally to all winds.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24442 From: Santos Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Review: Turbine-on-a-wing Reanalysis (and second "Betz-beater" c
Pierre, the copied text is a very weak argument against Betz, or against a compounded drag factor made by more advanced metrics.

A critical omission is that the power required to maintain WECS mass in flight is not even considered. Betz-fixation in our aviation context is especially "meaningless".
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24443 From: benhaiemp Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Review: Turbine-on-a-wing Reanalysis (and second "Betz-beater" c

The real problem for someone seems to be the high level of efficiency of secondary turbines as measured by Makani or theorized by Peter Jamieson.

Adding as aloft generators turn fast, they are light, involving in high power/mass ratio, that with no soft wing, no ground generator. But perhaps Taylor can help to argue.


 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24444 From: Santos Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Review: Turbine-on-a-wing Reanalysis (and second "Betz-beater" c
Makani and Jamison have not decided the question of a compounded drag factor, nor the poor applicability of Betz. Makani's actual measured performance can be presumed too low to publicly admit, with poor power- to-weight as the most predictive number.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24445 From: Rod Read Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Daisy with rigid blades
Ahhhh so says Dave Authority Santa-claus
But maybe you haven't seen the video where kps do claim extreme weather capability. Makes sense to park a kite if its already designed to travel at 200mph.

Getting back to the topic 
All those very controllable lift / pump kites would make great daisy top lift kites

Or maybe I should just use an albatross since they stay on the wing so long 
No cloth bag kite can be optimal for all winds. Not even a PL SS 
Tethered planes with onboard gen can power their own manoeuvres (heard of ampyx yet?) with energy to spare. 




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24446 From: benhaiemp Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Review: Turbine-on-a-wing Reanalysis (and second "Betz-beater" c
To presume is not to prove.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24447 From: Santos Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Daisy with rigid blades
Ampyx is another case of secret power curves (across all winds) I met the founders in Leuven, and find the venture to be naturally missing milestones based on naive assumptions, but also wildly successful raising investment. It cannot be claimed lack of funding is to blame for poor prospects of rigid airframes in AWE.

Rigid kites are desperate fliers; "clawing" in low wind. Soft kites are proven from sport to ship size, and can ghost along in low wind. We need rigid wing AWE testing to settle claims. People have to see the crashes and do the math.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24448 From: Santos Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Review: Turbine-on-a-wing Reanalysis (and second "Betz-beater" c
Agreed.

 Presuming Betz is important, and Jamison overrules Costello, is not proof.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24449 From: benhaiemp Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Review: Turbine-on-a-wing Reanalysis (and second "Betz-beater" c
The Betz limit is used as reference, not as presuming or hypothesis. And Costello is not referenced in the Jamieson's paper about secondary rotors.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24450 From: Santos Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Review: Turbine-on-a-wing Reanalysis (and second "Betz-beater" c
Betz limit is just the wrong number, nevermind the false priority and Nazi association. It's a bit like using the speed of light to measure horse travel. Planck Natural Units are a better (antiNazi) choice, with natural kite units applicable.

Let's agree those who insist on Betz as their prefferred metric are as welcome as Costello et al, who dismiss Betz.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24451 From: dougselsam Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: kiteKRAFT
daveS said: "What a large number of AWE ventures now aiming at a limited market for small unproven remote power systems. This start revives Joby's architecture, but only aims for 20kW. May the best tech win in this hotly contested niche market."

DougS replies:
Can you name who comprises this "large number of AWE ventures"?
What market exists for "small unproven remote power systems"?
There is a market for unproven systems?  Why would someone want an unproven power system?
You are saying there is a "start"?  What do you mean?   When did this start happen?  Recently?
Why do you say a large number of AWE ventures aims at 20 kW?
I only remember one, with no product, only a rendering.
How is a 20 kW AWE market "hotly contested"?  Who are the "contestants"?
When you say "May the best tech win", what do you mean exactly?
That sounds a bit redundant.
Is someone else saying the worst tech should win?
What if no 20 kW AWE product is produced?  Then who "wins"?  Where is one I can buy now?  Do you have one?  Why not? I thought you were the top researcher.
I'd like to see all the 20 kW AWE products competing for a hotly contested niche market for unproven remote power systems.  Can you name even one?  A real one?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24452 From: Santos Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: kiteKRAFT
DougS, 

The Forum has noted quite a few projects and ventures aimed at remote small systems. 20kW is a ballpark value for the increasingly crowded small ASES category. Make your own list from those cases, unless you want to pay me to do it for you,

daveS

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24453 From: dougselsam Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Reply to Doug's post// Re: [AWES] Re: W = m * g (NASA syntax) v
daveS said:
I recall black leads running to the back and batteries on the floor. Where did I claim "no batteries"? Maybe you misremember imagined slights. No load connected was my central observation. You seem to claim they were always connected without a controller despite risk."

DougS replies:  You have previously said you didn't see any batteries.
Meanwhile, I never even claimed the turbine was connected to the batteries at every moment at HAWP2009.  I just said the van was full of batteries, and the turbine was, in general, connected to the batteries.  I never said it was never disconnected.  Heck, there were periods of zero wind.  I connected and disconnected it several times.  That was just one more of your weak attempts to "score" what you perceive as "gotcha points", in your ongoing pretense of "expert" status in AWE with nothing to show for it after 10 years.  The silly thing is it's only necessary to compare your own statements at various times to show them as not all credible.  Whether a controller was used, "despite (according to you) risk" is, again, one more of your ignorant attempts to "score" perceived "gotcha points".  Basically, you don't know what you're talking about.  Any simple thing I say immediately turns into open-season for you to express your ignorance yet again.  Kind of amazing how strong your urge is to "have the last word" on every topic, every post, by every person, even when you actually have nothing meaningful or true to say, which seems to be the case in most instances.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24454 From: dougselsam Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: kiteKRAFT
As expected, you cannot name one.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24455 From: Santos Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: Reply to Doug's post// Re: [AWES] Re: W = m * g (NASA syntax) v
Thank you for conceding I may have seen no connection to the car batteries, which having no controller made sensible.

You did your best.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24456 From: Santos Date: 12/19/2018
Subject: Re: kiteKRAFT
KiteKraft is today's example. Read the archives for the others, or pay me 20USD per item. Thanks
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24457 From: Rod Read Date: 12/20/2018
Subject: Re: Daisy with rigid blades
More bold, unfounded & false statements, wondering off topic again.
All wrong.
If only an expert in AWES was on this forum they'd know how the "secret power curves" worked.
Would love to explore controllable rigid frames as fast sweeping lifters for a daisy stack

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24458 From: Santos Date: 12/20/2018
Subject: Re: Daisy with rigid blades
Ampyx power curves are simply how much net power is produced at any given wind velocity, accounting for reeling cycles, and with cut-in, cut-out bounds. Non-experts tend to underestimate how grimly such curves must reveal Ampyx's scaling limits (as well as their landing on a perch velocity scaling limit).
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24459 From: Santos Date: 12/20/2018
Subject: Re: Daisy with rigid blades
To get back to the Daisy topic, there are both advantages and shared liabilities with other high complexity architectures, like Ampyx's.

Generally, automation overdependence, excess mass, excess embodied complexity, hazardous operations, and so on, are toxic to success.

Using an Ampyx kiteplane to lift a Daisy, to test against using a soft-kite lifter; that would reveal which design approach, Low or High Complexity, is best.

I think the pilot kite will win on abundant advantages.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24460 From: dougselsam Date: 12/20/2018
Subject: Re: Reply to Doug's post// Re: [AWES] Re: W = m * g (NASA syntax) v
daveS said: "Thank you for conceding I may have seen no connection to the car batteries, which having no controller made sensible.

You did your best."
DougS replies: As usual you bring every conversation down to the lowest level of nothingness.  You have nothing to offer besides nitpicking everyone with bad advice and wrong "facts".  Of COURSE the freaking thing could be disconnected whenever I wanted in zero-to-light winds.  Of COURSE over two (2) days of uninterrupted flight, showing it to many people, I was able to connect and disconnect it at will.

You start out with trying your best to find points to nitpick, but they are meaningless anyway.  Who in their right mind would care if the batteries were connected at every moment anyway?  You have no real understanding how any of this stuff works.  You don't understand what is meaningful or not.  You just come out with more of your typical perpetual-newbie accusations that amount to nothing but confirming your general confusion and lack of knowledge and experience.

Let's just stay on point:  You had said the van had no batteries in it.  So to say now that you saw wires not connected to the batteries you previously said were not in the van makes no sense.   Period.  No more time for your endless nonsense.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24461 From: dougselsam Date: 12/20/2018
Subject: Re: Daisy with rigid blades
Rod Read said:
"Yeah
A pie and bovril is apparently a big part of football 
And so is shouting "The referee's a wanker!" 
Off topic yet? 
Much prefer the newer AWES forum at awesystems.info"

DougS replies: awesystems.info looks promising - thanks.
You finally put some decent blades on your machine (as opposed to continuing to follow "expert" advice) and immediately experienced the need for overspeed protection.  I've been saying it for ten years, but you didn't put it to the test til now.

I only mentioned "football" to ascribe credit for my "wind-energy version" of the "famous saying", in response to your machine which is now broken because it had no means of overspeed protection.  Otherwise, people living on remote islands in the middle of nowhere, might not get the joke.

Yes it's true, once you stop listening to the wrong people, and make some power, you quickly realize how dangerous wind energy can be.  People have been killed by their own wind turbines.  I've been to the emergency room myself, requiring 17 stitches from a blade strike during a Discovery Channel film shoot.  It happens so fast you don't even know it happened til it's over.  "Danger Will Robinson!" (Do you get that joke?)

Yeah I'd like to find an AWE forum where one could express an idea without it having to go through an obligatory, full-time idiot filter, or be "corrected" by someone who always has to "have the last word", without having any idea what they are talking about.  Then again, after ten years, what good does discussing any of this actually do?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24462 From: Santos Date: 12/20/2018
Subject: Re: Reply to Doug's post// Re: [AWES] Re: W = m * g (NASA syntax) v
Why would anyone claim a cluttered van had no batteries? Where is the offending post?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24463 From: dougselsam Date: 12/20/2018
Subject: Re: kiteKRAFT
daveS said: "KiteKraft is today's example. Read the archives for the others, or pay me 20USD per item. Thanks"

DougS replies:  Yeah, Let;s see, befoee that Mgenn was "today;s example", then "Joby" then "Makani" then "NASA" then "Wubbo", then daveS' "AWE-powered concert", then "Altaeros", then "KPS", and many I missed in between.  "Today's example" - example of what???  Statements of future action unlikely to manifest? 

Obviously, your entire fantasy-scenario was about the latest "press-release breakthrough".  KiteKraft is a rendering, not a product fighting for a hotly-contested niche market for unproven energy systems.  To my knowledge there is no market for knowingly buying unproven machinery in general.  You have to prove a system works or who would be interested?  How many renderings with selfies and empty promises do you need to see before you "get it"?
How about if I offer a thousand dollars if you can show us a single 20-kW AWE system that actually exists and is available now?  Where can we see one powering a remote location today?  Do you even realize how much power 20 kW is to handle?  It would probably blow your breaker-box.

Your entire original statement made no sense, as I indicated with questions for every line, starting with why would anyone want to buy an "unproven" energy system "for remote areas"?  Unproven?  From whom, you?  Do you mean someone should buy some blue tarps from you, unproven for producing power, whereby you could tell them it can dump off some sand for a half-second upon launch and that is their 20 kW?  That you are thereby not only a "player" in AWE, but an "expert"?  Newsflash daveS:  The fact that kites can lift a weight was already well known for 100 years.  You were going to show everyone how to make electricity from them, not confirm what was already well-known, remember?  As usual, nice try.


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24464 From: Santos Date: 12/20/2018
Subject: Re: kiteKRAFT
No, the growing list of small AWES developers is better than DougS is representing.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24465 From: Santos Date: 12/20/2018
Subject: Re: kiteKRAFT
Let's hope Doug can rest on his technical progress. KiteKRAFT, same best wishes. Fortunately, AWE is about flying kites to make power, not about personal social media complaints.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24466 From: dougselsam Date: 12/20/2018
Subject: Re: Reply to Doug's post// Re: [AWES] Re: W = m * g (NASA syntax) v
daveS said: "Why would anyone claim a cluttered van had no batteries? Where is the offending post?"

DougS replies: Nice "gotcha nitpick" attempt, daveS:  The van was "cluttered".  Cluttered.  (And don't forget I was "wasting helium" - just for you!)  Got that everyone?  The van I packed up with a working 2250-Watt AWE system and drove hundreds of miles to stay for a few days at HAWP2009, just to show people like daveS how easy it is to do AWE, in a "field of dreamers", was "cluttered".  How could it NOT be "cluttered"?

Why would anyone claim my demo van had no batteries, when clearly it did?  Good question - why did you?  Only you know the answer to that.  Part of your game is denying what you originally said when starting your meaningless arguments.  I'm not going to play your game of searching through thousands of messages over ten years, where you have the ability to delete them anyway, to prove your "gotcha" points are not valid.  Anyone paying attention knows very well what you said. 

The bigger point is, since then, you've done nothing but brag about being an "expert" and claiming to be the leading AWE researcher in the world, never producing any meaningful amount of electricity.  Now you're claiming some fantasy-of-the-moment, "hotly-contested" market for 20-kW unproven energy systems for remote areas.  As the world's leading AWE researcher, you must have an entry, right?  Where is it? 

It doesn't require going beyond your own statements to disprove them.  And by the way, the wires from the Sky Serpent generator consist of an orange jacket containing a green wire, a white wire, and a black wire - a typical store-bought extension cord with the ends removed.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24467 From: Santos Date: 12/20/2018
Subject: Re: Reply to Doug's post// Re: [AWES] Re: W = m * g (NASA syntax) v
You are not producing any post that claims there were no batteries. My observation was merely- no load connected, big deal. A music system would have been my suggestion,  with the battery bank to buffer gust surge, and not be obsessed 10yrs later on trivia. 

The serious question is, what productive research is USwindlabs doing? Can they get their WECS to 100ft? 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24468 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/20/2018
Subject: Moderator note

Attacking persons with shaded negative person-descriptive titles is off target of the forum. 

One may answer a challenge technically with evidence or mechanical argument.

Thank you for not tempting time-consuming and delaying moderation. Trusting open smooth posting is risky; please do not abuse the flow.   

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24469 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/20/2018
Subject: Re: kiteKRAFT
Doug, the topic is "kiteKRAFT" which is a start-up venture effort. DaveS use of "this start" in context was understood by me as a placeholder for the start-up of topic: kiteKRAFT.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24470 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/20/2018
Subject: Re: kiteKRAFT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24471 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/20/2018
Subject: Re: Moderator note
Doug, please cease carving into "pretense of "expert" status"  slant. 
It is fact that DaveS is considered by a faction of people an expert in kite systems and other close realms. That you hold differently is respected, but ignoring the fact that others do and attacking motive that cannot be seen is beyond the target of the forum.

You do not know his insides to come up with the attack of "pretense" and so such flow amounts to a harping attack on his person.   And any similar attacks by anyone on the forum over any other poster or person is off target of the forum.    All, please edit out all personal attacks in a local version of a post before posting.   Thank you.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24472 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/20/2018
Subject: Re: kiteKRAFT
Doug, that is another shaded attack on a person. Please stop such attacks. 
You do not know that he cannot come up with one. 
He has come up with more than one in the body of the forum. 
Search firmly first on your own before attacking that which you cannot know. 
That he did not immediately do the research for you is no evidence that he could not come up with one. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24473 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/20/2018
Subject: Re: Moderator note

"You have nothing to offer"
is considered by this moderator as an attack on person. 
Please carefully look at your text before posting such. 
Look at the whole of offer of persons; respect the truth. 
Then shy away from the universal of "nothing" over a person. 
Please up the game. Stay on mechanical evidence and argument 
Let direct technical argument suffice for gaining ground for development. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 24474 From: dougselsam Date: 12/20/2018
Subject: Re: Reply to Doug's post// Re: [AWES] Re: W = m * g (NASA syntax) v
daveS asked: "The serious question is, what productive research is USwindlabs doing?"
DougS replies:  Well we used a kite to lift the Sly Serpent.  And I mentioned a recent patent covering the only floating wind turbine foundation in commercial use in the world, granted because I was the original inventor of it.  Just like Betz, you don't understand.  What productive activity can you show in the last decade?