Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                          AWES 22160 to 22209 Page 336 of 440.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22160 From: benhaiemp Date: 3/6/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22161 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/6/2017
Subject: Titan

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22162 From: dave santos Date: 3/6/2017
Subject: Beyond LadderMills

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22163 From: dave santos Date: 3/6/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22164 From: dave santos Date: 3/6/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22165 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 3/6/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22166 From: dave santos Date: 3/6/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22167 From: benhaiemp Date: 3/7/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22168 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/7/2017
Subject: Re: Minesto news

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22169 From: dave santos Date: 3/7/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22170 From: Peter A. Sharp Date: 3/7/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22171 From: dave santos Date: 3/7/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22172 From: benhaiemp Date: 3/7/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22173 From: benhaiemp Date: 3/7/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22174 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/7/2017
Subject: Re: Minesto news

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22175 From: benhaiemp Date: 3/7/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22176 From: dave santos Date: 3/7/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22177 From: dave santos Date: 3/7/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22178 From: dave santos Date: 3/7/2017
Subject: Peter Lynn on SS Pilot Progress

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22179 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/7/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22180 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/7/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22181 From: dave santos Date: 3/7/2017
Subject: Current State-of-the-Art Aircraft Fabric

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22182 From: Peter A. Sharp Date: 3/7/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22183 From: Peter A. Sharp Date: 3/7/2017
Subject: Re: Minesto news

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22184 From: dave santos Date: 3/7/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22185 From: dave santos Date: 3/7/2017
Subject: Re: Minesto news

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22186 From: dave santos Date: 3/7/2017
Subject: Re: Minesto news

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22187 From: dave santos Date: 3/7/2017
Subject: Kite Tenders and Drone-Hybrids (Drones diversify, Joby Aviation's n

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22188 From: benhaiemp Date: 3/7/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22189 From: dave santos Date: 3/7/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22190 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 3/8/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22191 From: dave santos Date: 3/8/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22192 From: dave santos Date: 3/8/2017
Subject: Kites, Diesel, and Towers?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22193 From: dave santos Date: 3/8/2017
Subject: Re: Kites, Diesel, and Towers?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22194 From: gordon_sp Date: 3/8/2017
Subject: Re: Balloon Kite AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22195 From: benhaiemp Date: 3/8/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22196 From: dave santos Date: 3/8/2017
Subject: Re: Balloon Kite AWE [2 Attachments]

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22197 From: benhaiemp Date: 3/8/2017
Subject: Re: Kites, Diesel, and Towers?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22198 From: dave santos Date: 3/8/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22199 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/8/2017
Subject: Re: Balloon Kite AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22200 From: dave santos Date: 3/8/2017
Subject: Re: Kites, Diesel, and Towers?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22201 From: benhaiemp Date: 3/8/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22202 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/8/2017
Subject: Re: Balloon Kite AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22203 From: dave santos Date: 3/8/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22204 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/8/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22205 From: dave santos Date: 3/8/2017
Subject: Re: Balloon Kite AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22206 From: dave santos Date: 3/8/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22207 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/8/2017
Subject: Re: Balloon Kite AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22208 From: dave santos Date: 3/8/2017
Subject: "Huge Inflatable Solar Updraft Tower" Concept

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22209 From: dave santos Date: 3/9/2017
Subject: "Time-Crystals" in Kite-Matter and "Coreographed Order" of Dancing



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22160 From: benhaiemp Date: 3/6/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings

DaveS,


You should present your calculations of your "rope-loadpath" . But before making some paper I suggest you study more carefully Storm's paper in order to better understand the problem of stress anywhere in the fabrics.  

Note I use "ripstop" term when it is ripstop, "fiber"term when it is fiber etc. It is not too difficult to understand. But if it is too difficult for you some updated basic knowledge could be advisable.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22161 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/6/2017
Subject: Titan

Google's parent company killed its solar-powered internet-drone program

  • Steve Kovach
    •    Jan. 11, 2017
    =============================================
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22162 From: dave santos Date: 3/6/2017
Subject: Beyond LadderMills
The LadderMill concept as initially conceived decades ago has long-known limitations-
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22163 From: dave santos Date: 3/6/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings
Pierre,

My calculation for Mothra's loadpaths was based on the rope working load x 3, which gives 18000lbs. This was not exceeded when Mothra flew in a gale at WSIKF.  Go ahead and write the paper, if you really think its needed.

Your odd usage of  terms like "polymer" "fiber" and "ripstop" does seem confused. Kite ripstop is normally all three criteria.

Wikipedia- "Ripstop fabrics are woven fabrics, usually made of nylon..."

daveS











On Monday, March 6, 2017 1:12 PM, "pierre-benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
DaveS,

You should present your calculations of your "rope-loadpath" . But before making some paper I suggest you study more carefully Storm's paper in order to better understand the problem of stress anywhere in the fabrics.  
Note I use "ripstop" term when it is ripstop, "fiber"term when it is fiber etc. It is not too difficult to understand. But if it is too difficult for you some updated basic knowledge could be advisable.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22164 From: dave santos Date: 3/6/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings
Pierre,

I have read Storm carefully, and we have compared soft-kite ideas directly, off-Forum. Storm and I have both have long backgrounds in parachute tech, so we naturally agree on all fundamentals. Its unclear just what comments of Storm in his paper that you think are somehow inconsistent with my comments. If you will quote Storm specifically, I can surely clear up any discrepancy.

Note that ripstop is really the same principle as rope loadpaths (ie. thread loadpaths). The idea is that the loadpath networks protect the weaker fill fabric from  excess loads. Its a well established universal soft-wing method. For example, in parachutes, sails, balloons, and Kiteship's OL ship-kite, the reinforced seams act as loadpath networks. Mothra's version merely uses naked ropes to perform the same structural function. If any kixel rips, the rip stops there, and does not cross the loadpath,

daveS 


On Monday, March 6, 2017 2:55 PM, "dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Pierre,

My calculation for Mothra's loadpaths was based on the rope working load x 3, which gives 18000lbs. This was not exceeded when Mothra flew in a gale at WSIKF.  Go ahead and write the paper, if you really think its needed.

Your odd usage of  terms like "polymer" "fiber" and "ripstop" does seem confused. Kite ripstop is normally all three criteria.

Wikipedia- "Ripstop fabrics are woven fabrics, usually made of nylon..."

daveS











On Monday, March 6, 2017 1:12 PM, "pierre-benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
DaveS,

You should present your calculations of your "rope-loadpath" . But before making some paper I suggest you study more carefully Storm's paper in order to better understand the problem of stress anywhere in the fabrics.  
Note I use "ripstop" term when it is ripstop, "fiber"term when it is fiber etc. It is not too difficult to understand. But if it is too difficult for you some updated basic knowledge could be advisable.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22165 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 3/6/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings

As conceptual understanding looks too difficult for you so I suggest you look at (Google) images for "fibers" on https://www.google.fr/search?q=fiber&biw=1536&bih=764&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwie5M33_8LSAhXEPxoKHThLD94Q_AUICCgB  , for "riptsop" on https://www.google.fr/search?q=fiber&biw=1536&bih=764&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwie5M33_8LSAhXEPxoKHThLD94Q_AUICCgB#tbm=isch&q=ripstop&* , for "plastic film" on https://www.google.fr/search?q=fiber&biw=1536&bih=764&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwie5M33_8LSAhXEPxoKHThLD94Q_AUICCgB#tbm=isch&q=plastic+film&*.

I think after it you can understand better the problems I mentioned for fibers (used for fabric, both weak (for lifetime, presenting more area to sun and more possible deformations for abrasion) and strong (for mechanical properties) element), for ripstop (low lifetime, high mechanical properties), for plastic film (high lifetime, low mechanical properties). The low lifetime of ripstop is mentioned in numerous scientific papers, and also is known by users. None of the existing fabrics or plastic films can be suitable for AWES due to their too low lifetime and/or too low tear strength. If a far better fabric, or film, or composite is not found, AWES could be rigid wings.

 

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22166 From: dave santos Date: 3/6/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings
No Pierre, those image search results do not  support  the idea that rigid wing AWES are shown to somehow outlast ripstop fabric  AWES.  You seem to be ignoring higher crash resistance and  proven success of sport kites. Where is any rigid wing kite that has ever flown so many hours as many a power kite? I fly both soft and hard wings, and have never actually worn either type out, but the fact remains- rigid wings must not crash, or they lose.

Let comparative testing prove which AWES basis survives to payback better. That is my "conceptual understanding" of how to evaluate soft v rigid.

------------------------------

Thanks to Joe for Correction- Wikipedia quote says "often" (not "usually")-

"Ripstop fabrics are woven fabrics, often made of nylon..."



On Monday, March 6, 2017 9:06 PM, "Pierre BENHAIEM pierre-benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
I think after it you can understand better the problems I mentioned for fibers (used for fabric, both weak (for lifetime, presenting more area to sun and more possible deformations for abrasion) and strong (for mechanical properties) element), for ripstop (low lifetime, high mechanical properties), for plastic film (high lifetime, low mechanical properties). The low lifetime of ripstop is mentioned in numerous scientific papers, and also is known by users. None of the existing fabrics or plastic films can be suitable for AWES due to their too low lifetime and/or too low tear strength. If a far better fabric, or film, or composite is not found, AWES could be rigid wings.
 
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22167 From: benhaiemp Date: 3/7/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings

I have never mentioned that those image search results do support or do not support the idea that rigid wing AWES are shown to somehow outlast ripstop fabric  AWES.  DaveS you are confusing ideas as they become too complex.

By reading you  Ampyx, Makani, me, numerous other companies and players excepted you ignore crash issues. You should teach us that a rigid wing can fall and crash... 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22168 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/7/2017
Subject: Re: Minesto news
Job opportunity at Minesto:  Mechanical Engineer
[description gives some history and news notes about Minesto]
February, 2017. 
======================================================
"more than 50" on the growing Minesto team. 
These people are working to have an energy kite system that flies in the media water (paravanes) in order to generate electricity.  
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22169 From: dave santos Date: 3/7/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings
Thanks Pierre, but it really is the proper role of rigid-wing AWE ventures to generate and share crash statistical data, rather than not report crashes. AWE domain experts will continue to advocate for open testing to finally provide the data to prove to the world which kind of wing really lasts longer. kPower continues to predict open AWE testing will prove cloth currently is more reliable and survives longer, due to imperfect flight automation of rigid-wing kiteplanes.

Meanwhile, its good training to test all kinds of wings for oneself and master the state-of-the-art to advance it. For sails, this article by a Hood Sails sailmaker summarizes progress in our time. Fabric is still the cost-performance leader in sailing, but complex fabric-laminate hybrids are evolving from elite racing classes. Compare expert discussion of highly evolved sailcloth tech with trying to judge fabric options from image search, while using basic terms like "polymer" ambiguously (you wrote on someAWE, "There is no fiber when a polymer is used.").

You note, "The low lifetime of ripstop is mentioned in numerous scientific papers",  but  what papers do you rely on? Peter Lynn, in his Newsletter, comes to mind as an expert who marvels at how modern ripstop (like Gu SkySilk) performs and continues to improve, and modern sailmakers are thrilled at the performance improvements they have engineered (link below). The fabric pessimists seem very poorly informed, and tend to ignore the potential of superior "pay-back" performance, including fabric-covered rigid wings.

Test rigid wings yourself to best understand the systems engineering challenge. Our real job is to discover the best AWES LCOE the COTS materials availalble.





On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 5:39 AM, "pierre-benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
I have never mentioned that those image search results do support or do not support the idea that rigid wing AWES are shown to somehow outlast ripstop fabric  AWES.  DaveS you are confusing ideas as they become too complex.
By reading you  Ampyx, Makani, me, numerous other companies and players excepted you ignore crash issues. You should teach us that a rigid wing can fall and crash... 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22170 From: Peter A. Sharp Date: 3/7/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings

Hi All,

If we use sail durability as a guideline, we can expect cloth kites to last less than a year (about 200 days of continuous flying, assuming 10 hours of sunlight per day), mainly due to UV radiation. I would like to use cloth blades for my Bird Windmill, but replacing the cloth every year is not acceptable when the cost must be minimized. So I stick with hard blades. Until I see a suitable, UV resistant cloth kite material, I agree with PierreB. Solid wings are presently the only practical option -- unless it can be shown to be economical (due to high enough energy capture) to replace a cloth kite every year.

https://northsails.com/sailing/resources/cruising-sail-durability 

PeterS

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22171 From: dave santos Date: 3/7/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings
PeterS,

You may be overlooking good data - For example, fabric covered aircraft can sit outdoors  for over a decade and still meet rated safety performance. This is due to aluminum and titanium-oxide rich coatings. Good architectural fabrics rate to 20yrs. Sail payback of a few months has been calculated to be far faster than rigid wings, for superior LCOE, by companies like SkySails. Others, like Makani, have calculated a five year payback for a carbon kiteplane. kPower calculated around a two week payback for blue tarps at 50 USD a MWhr. Of course these are all crude estimates. Factors include UV by latitude and climate, proportion of night flying, use of quivers and suites of sails, maintenance and repair, etc.. 

Those who test both kinds of wings most have an edge in AWE. kPower actually likes fast-sweeping rigid power wings held up by soft kites for small AWES, and has tested such combinations, along with pure rigid or soft  wing AWES.

Perhaps the most damning problem with rigid wings is not crashing risk (which will abate in a decade or two as flight control improves) but poor scaling potential. Soft wings scale far more. You and Pierre seem to reason in favor of rigid wings without much regard to scaling law limits. The good news is so many rigid wing and soft wing AWES contenders will settle these questions eventually, as real-world tests,

daveS


On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 9:49 AM, "'Peter A. Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Hi All,
If we use sail durability as a guideline, we can expect cloth kites to last less than a year (about 200 days of continuous flying, assuming 10 hours of sunlight per day), mainly due to UV radiation. I would like to use cloth blades for my Bird Windmill, but replacing the cloth every year is not acceptable when the cost must be minimized. So I stick with hard blades. Until I see a suitable, UV resistant cloth kite material, I agree with PierreB. Solid wings are presently the only practical option -- unless it can be shown to be economical (due to high enough energy capture) to replace a cloth kite every year.
https://northsails.com/sailing/resources/cruising-sail-durability 
PeterS
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22172 From: benhaiemp Date: 3/7/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings
http://www.beautiful-light.eu/en/characteristics and http://www.faiteslepleindavenir.com/2015/06/18/du-soleil-dans-les-voiles/  represent other possibilities as the integration or encapsulation of photovoltaic film. AWE kites, at least static lifting kites, could be equipped.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22173 From: benhaiemp Date: 3/7/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings
http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-3-642-39965-7_31#page-1 Ram-air Wing Design Considerations for Airborne Wind Energy,  page 542: "

Operating Hours 500 (abrasion) 1000 (fatigue) 1050 (UV exposure)".

I rightly mention "There is no fiber when a polymer is used" as fibers are the weak point for these concerns. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymer : "A polymer (/ˈpɒlᵻmər/;[2][3] Greek poly-, "many" + -mer, "parts") is a large molecule, or macromolecule, composed of many repeated subunits.". And https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_film :"Plastic film is a thin continuous polymeric material.". So please stop this useless arguing.

A ripstop-plastic film complex could perhaps improve the lifetime if the plastic film (polymer) makes a sufficient barrier to UV and protect the ripstop. I agree with PeterS that for AWE use the too low lifetime of fabrics (even with lamination) stays a crippling concern. Also in my opinion rigid wings as power (moving) kites (or rotors) are the "only practical option" (PeterS). But perhaps a lifting kite could be a soft kite, perhaps including solar film, as the constraints are lesser and as it works even if the material has some failure, but perhaps, not sure, and only for AWE systems using lifting kites. 

  


 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22174 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/7/2017
Subject: Re: Minesto news
Another opportunity is announced on their career page: 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22175 From: benhaiemp Date: 3/7/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings
"fabric covered aircraft": yes, but fabric alone is not the same. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22176 From: dave santos Date: 3/7/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings
More review notes-

TimE notes fabric UV coatings degrade and crack, and the open cracks allow UV to contact naked polymer fiber. We reviewed UV protectorants, and they can be renewed in order to greatly extend fabric life.

Soft kites of nearly pure polymer are the most recyclable wings. Rigid composite wings with many toxic compounds are the least recyclable. Recyclable aluminum strucuture is a rigid wing option, but with an even lower scaling limit than rigid composites. UHMWPE is (and graphene will be) ideal recyclable soft-kite materials.

North Sails wants sailors to replace sails more often, so its in their favor to cite bareboat charter sail life, which is akin to rental car life.  Charter sails are abused by novice sailors who let sails flog, pack them wet, and keep sails up in increasing wind, rather than changing to heavy-air and storm sails promptly. Careful cruising sailors can get double the working life by careful handling,  around five years, typical.

UFSC's AWES program has converged on the fabric kite, as a current  fairly typical choice. Scaling-laws  seemingly predict  the well funded rigid-wing AWE players to fail to scale up,  even as more soft-wing players enter, due to superior economy and ease-of-adoption of soft wings. If there has not been enough AWE R&D yet to clearly indicate a winner in the soft-rigid wing debate, this may not be true soon. Failure to scale up by Makani and Ampyx will be a boost for proven ship-kites as the superior wings.

Why no rigid wings in kite sports? Already they would be too dangerous, impractical, and expensive.


On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 11:55 AM, dave santos <santos137@yahoo.com  
Hi All,
If we use sail durability as a guideline, we can expect cloth kites to last less than a year (about 200 days of continuous flying, assuming 10 hours of sunlight per day), mainly due to UV radiation. I would like to use cloth blades for my Bird Windmill, but replacing the cloth every year is not acceptable when the cost must be minimized. So I stick with hard blades. Until I see a suitable, UV resistant cloth kite material, I agree with PierreB. Solid wings are presently the only practical option -- unless it can be shown to be economical (due to high enough energy capture) to replace a cloth kite every year.
https://northsails.com/sailing/resources/cruising-sail-durability 
PeterS
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22177 From: dave santos Date: 3/7/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings
Pierre,

Engineering corrections are helpful steps to sounder conclusions. Note that I thanked JoeF for correcting me, rather than think he was making "useless argument".

You still semm to deny that polymers form EITHER engineering fibers OR films. This someAWE statement is simply incorrect- "There is no fiber when a polymer is used." 

Wikipedia- "Polymer fibers are a subset of man-made fibers"





On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 12:47 PM, "dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
More review notes-

TimE notes fabric UV coatings degrade and crack, and the open cracks allow UV to contact naked polymer fiber. We reviewed UV protectorants, and they can be renewed in order to greatly extend fabric life.

Soft kites of nearly pure polymer are the most recyclable wings. Rigid composite wings with many toxic compounds are the least recyclable. Recyclable aluminum strucuture is a rigid wing option, but with an even lower scaling limit than rigid composites. UHMWPE is (and graphene will be) ideal recyclable soft-kite materials.

North Sails wants sailors to replace sails more often, so its in their favor to cite bareboat charter sail life, which is akin to rental car life.  Charter sails are abused by novice sailors who let sails flog, pack them wet, and keep sails up in increasing wind, rather than changing to heavy-air and storm sails promptly. Careful cruising sailors can get double the working life by careful handling,  around five years, typical.

UFSC's AWES program has converged on the fabric kite, as a current  fairly typical choice. Scaling-laws  seemingly predict  the well funded rigid-wing AWE players to fail to scale up,  even as more soft-wing players enter, due to superior economy and ease-of-adoption of soft wings. If there has not been enough AWE R&D yet to clearly indicate a winner in the soft-rigid wing debate, this may not be true soon. Failure to scale up by Makani and Ampyx will be a boost for proven ship-kites as the superior wings.

Why no rigid wings in kite sports? Already they would be too dangerous, impractical, and expensive.


On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 11:55 AM, dave santos <santos137@yahoo.com  
Hi All,
If we use sail durability as a guideline, we can expect cloth kites to last less than a year (about 200 days of continuous flying, assuming 10 hours of sunlight per day), mainly due to UV radiation. I would like to use cloth blades for my Bird Windmill, but replacing the cloth every year is not acceptable when the cost must be minimized. So I stick with hard blades. Until I see a suitable, UV resistant cloth kite material, I agree with PierreB. Solid wings are presently the only practical option -- unless it can be shown to be economical (due to high enough energy capture) to replace a cloth kite every year.
https://northsails.com/sailing/resources/cruising-sail-durability 
PeterS
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22178 From: dave santos Date: 3/7/2017
Subject: Peter Lynn on SS Pilot Progress
Peter Lynn exemplifies how the most experienced kite experts have the best appreciation for proven practice, and the greatest potential to improve real kites.

Large fabric pilot-lifter kites self-fly without digital autopilots and are crash-resistant, which greatly reduces failure-modes compared to rigid kites. Peter Lynn is predicting kites like these will evolve like clocks-

"From when fundamental elements are established, designs tend to get inexorably better, and cheaper- without any apparent limit. 
Consider the wrist watch; 300 years ago they didn't keep good time, needed winding every day, were as fragile as a butterfly, and cost more than a house. Any $10 watch today is superior in every way- except re-sale value."



.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22179 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/7/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22180 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/7/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22181 From: dave santos Date: 3/7/2017
Subject: Current State-of-the-Art Aircraft Fabric
Oratex is leading modern aircraft covering fabric. It has not quite yet been shown to last longer than the ~15 years of previous fabrics, but its lighter, stronger, and inherently UV resistant without added UV coating. Its guaranteed for ten years even if flown super-intensively and left outside. The implication is that fabrics like these could work closer to 100,000hrs than 2000hrs, and that graphene fabrics now under rapid development may outlast all critics of fabric as a short lived material.

Note that this is a "soft-goods" covering for otherwise rigid wings; stretching fabric over a frame is not the same as a fully soft-kite. GE may have already proved that fabric covered HAWT blades make economic sense [NREL study], but there are economic and practical barriers (like factory tooling) to suddenly replacing composite turbine blade skins with fabric. It may be that a new larger class of HAWTs will go with fabric covering, to save weight in scaling, even as AWES based on fabric begin to displace wind towers.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22182 From: Peter A. Sharp Date: 3/7/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings
Hi DaveS,
So show me cloth kites using aircraft covering. If you can't, then that
implies that aircraft covering is not suitable for kites, but may be
suitable for light, rigid wings.
PeterS
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22183 From: Peter A. Sharp Date: 3/7/2017
Subject: Re: Minesto news
Hi All,
How does Minesto plan to avoid slicing and dicing millions of sea animals,
given that the sea kite will be moving at 10 times the speed of the current?
After the deaths of a few dolphins or whales, the company is going to be in
jeopardy.
PeterS
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22184 From: dave santos Date: 3/7/2017
Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings
Attachments :
    Pierre,

    Its still unclear if you accept polymer-fiber fabric is standard for modern kites, while you recall interesting questions from past discussions that you may have missed, on the same topics. So there is a lot of review going on, which may also help new folks like PeterS catch up quicker and soon make useful new predictions about large-scale AWE design. The prediction that hard wings are better in AWE seems like an old trap, unless the prototypes somehow scale up like ship-kites.

    Its very true that modern fabric kites, sails, and airplane coverings have specialized versions, but to an engineer, they share basic qualities. True, in principle you can make a soft kite from airplane fabric or cover an airplane with kite cloth. The biggest obstacle is mainly in the human-flight certification. A cloth approved for a paraglider would not have passed the certification for covering an airplane, and vica-versa. There are also secondary details, like choice of finish and fastening, but these are not intrinsic limits.

    This is pure review: There is a engineering continuum from the softest to hardest wing that we study at expert level here. The kite engineer chooses materials according to specific goals (I made an edible kite of seaweed and dry spaghetti). We do ponder all kite fabric issues, but with a common definition of polymer fiber you seem to deny.

    Towed sailplanes are classed as kite cases by us, and many sailplane types are fabric covered. The Gigant is a good example. In that era, the same fine linen cloth might be used in airplanes, airships, gliders, or kites. Belgian or Irish linen was especially esteemed, but not as "kite only" or "airplane only", and aviation fabric certification was less developed. Early aero-engineers tended to test for themselves from available linen suppliers,

    daveS




    Inline image



    On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 3:24 PM, "'Peter A. Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
    Hi DaveS,
    So show me cloth kites using aircraft covering. If you can't, then that
    implies that aircraft covering is not suitable for kites, but may be
    suitable for light, rigid wings.
    PeterS



    		   @@attachment@@
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22185 From: dave santos Date: 3/7/2017
    Subject: Re: Minesto news
    PeterS,

    Yes, we have discussed this Achilles-heel of Minesto's when it first disclosed. Minesto is mostly ignoring the issue of endangerment to sea-life, which is rather normal ethics in capitalism. They will likely try various mitigating features and narratives. Luck will play role, whether they are caught if death occurs. The normal pattern is for founders to cash out the company at a profit (sell or bleed it to death) before such issues blow up.

    There are alternative paravane concepts with lower velocities and no turbine blades that are safer for sea-life. WPI is notable competitor with less menacing power-parvane designs. kPower has concepts for larger slower underwater soft-kite concepts that would be far more benign than rigid hydrofoils. We get to see what works and what does not, since regulators hardly can stop a world of odd experiments.

    AWEIA is the appropriate entity to respond to energy water-kite ethical issues early,* from an extended stakeholder perspective that clearly includes animal-rights and ecosystems. There is a similar bird risk issue across AWES architectures, with faster more aerobatic designs more dangerous.

    daveS

    * For example, AWEIA proposes an AWE Military Ban, but several players (WindLift, Altaeros, etc) seek militarized AWE as a "patriotic" business model, and an arms-war could develop, with China as the winner.


    On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 3:42 PM, "'Peter A. Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
    Hi All,
    How does Minesto plan to avoid slicing and dicing millions of sea animals,
    given that the sea kite will be moving at 10 times the speed of the current?
    After the deaths of a few dolphins or whales, the company is going to be in
    jeopardy.
    PeterS
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22186 From: dave santos Date: 3/7/2017
    Subject: Re: Minesto news
    Considering mitigation of wild-life risk around high-speed kites, perhaps drone 'chasers' can do the job (also maybe sonic and light effects, to explore in another topic).

    An amfib water drone might scout for endangered wildlife and shut down or steer away the primary plant-






    On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 4:37 PM, "dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
    PeterS,

    Yes, we have discussed this Achilles-heel of Minesto's when it first disclosed. Minesto is mostly ignoring the issue of endangerment to sea-life, which is rather normal ethics in capitalism. They will likely try various mitigating features and narratives. Luck will play role, whether they are caught if death occurs. The normal pattern is for founders to cash out the company at a profit (sell or bleed it to death) before such issues blow up.

    There are alternative paravane concepts with lower velocities and no turbine blades that are safer for sea-life. WPI is notable competitor with less menacing power-parvane designs. kPower has concepts for larger slower underwater soft-kite concepts that would be far more benign than rigid hydrofoils. We get to see what works and what does not, since regulators hardly can stop a world of odd experiments.

    AWEIA is the appropriate entity to respond to energy water-kite ethical issues early,* from an extended stakeholder perspective that clearly includes animal-rights and ecosystems. There is a similar bird risk issue across AWES architectures, with faster more aerobatic designs more dangerous.

    daveS

    * For example, AWEIA proposes an AWE Military Ban, but several players (WindLift, Altaeros, etc) seek militarized AWE as a "patriotic" business model, and an arms-war could develop, with China as the winner.


    On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 3:42 PM, "'Peter A. Sharp' sharpencil@sbcglobal.net [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
    Hi All,
    How does Minesto plan to avoid slicing and dicing millions of sea animals,
    given that the sea kite will be moving at 10 times the speed of the current?
    After the deaths of a few dolphins or whales, the company is going to be in
    jeopardy.
    PeterS
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22187 From: dave santos Date: 3/7/2017
    Subject: Kite Tenders and Drone-Hybrids (Drones diversify, Joby Aviation's n
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22188 From: benhaiemp Date: 3/7/2017
    Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings

    http://learn.eartheasy.com/2012/12/new-fabric-covered-blades-to-lower-cost-of-wind-energy/ . Could a rigid wing be lighter, using this old process?

    About "polymer-fiber fabric": yes, but "ripstop" is shorter. 
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22189 From: dave santos Date: 3/7/2017
    Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings
    Pierre,

    You usage is confused. Ripstop is not always synthetic polymer; for example, cotton-ripstop. Ripstop is a special weave, what ever the fiber. 

    At least no known critic of fabric wings in AWE happens to be a well informed aerospace textile expert, who would only carefully distinguish "polymer", "ripstop", etc., or a proper economist, who would calculate LCOE pay-back carefully.

    Let AWE's true experts be vindicated by fulfilled prediction. My predictions? 1) It will take careful comparative testing to settle non-expert opinions on both sides. 2) The real experts will be found on the correct side of any critical design issue.

    daveS




    On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 9:01 PM, "pierre-benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
    About "polymer-fiber fabric": yes, but "ripstop" is shorter. 
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22190 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 3/8/2017
    Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings

    DaveS,

     

     DaveS note: "Your usage is confused. Ripstop is not always synthetic polymer; for example, cotton-ripstop.".   


    As usual you produce an unproductive hair-splitting, hiding the fundamental problem of fibers weakness and low lifetime for AWE use 24h/24. Note that I produced scientific publications (Storm Dunker for example) from real experts (not AWE forum self-proclaimed "experts", repeating "expert" word in each message). These scientific papers have other references, and are often under peer review. All mention a short lifetime of fabrics in regard to AWE use.


    Today no fabric is viable for AWE use due to fast degradation. So searches should go towards rigid wings in order to make them lighter, or/and towards better ripstop-plastic films laminated complexes in order to produce flexible material for a long (x 10 at least, probably x 100 due to the high cost of complexes) lifetime.  
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22191 From: dave santos Date: 3/8/2017
    Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings
    Pierre,

    Its not hair-splitting to clarify correct use of "polymer", "fiber", and "ripstop" in the engineering context of expert soft-wing discussion. 

    Another correction: You wrote- "Today no fabric is viable for AWE use due to fast degradation."

    In fact, kite sports are clearly AWE driven already, and only fabric is "viable". AWE R&D is also a "viable" use for soft kites. Its mistaken to think that rigid wings are somehow proven more "viable". It seems you will not be able to cite any kite/aviation/aerospace textile professional who agrees that fabric wings are not viable in AWE. Even Pocock found linen viable almost two hundred years ago, as did the sailing ships of the age.

    SO PeterS will not bother designing fabric wind devices under the same "fast degradation" (thousands of hours) bias; meanwhile fabric wings on yachts, kites, and airplanes will continue to thrive; and no rigid wing AWES is known to have flown even a week without crashing. How naive of non-aerospace lay-folk to depend on not crashing any rigid wing.

    At least we have clarified what polymer, fiber, and ripstop mean in textile engineering, which is useful to the skilled-in-the-art of soft wings,

    daveS




    On Wednesday, March 8, 2017 9:22 AM, "Pierre BENHAIEM pierre-benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
    DaveS,
     
     DaveS note: "Your usage is confused. Ripstop is not always synthetic polymer; for example, cotton-ripstop.".   

    As usual you produce an unproductive hair-splitting, hiding the fundamental problem of fibers weakness and low lifetime for AWE use 24h/24. Note that I produced scientific publications (Storm Dunker for example) from real experts (not AWE forum self-proclaimed "experts", repeating "expert" word in each message). These scientific papers have other references, and are often under peer review. All mention a short lifetime of fabrics in regard to AWE use.

    Today no fabric is viable for AWE use due to fast degradation. So searches should go towards rigid wings in order to make them lighter, or/and towards better ripstop-plastic films laminated complexes in order to produce flexible material for a long (x 10 at least, probably x 100 due to the high cost of complexes) lifetime.  
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22192 From: dave santos Date: 3/8/2017
    Subject: Kites, Diesel, and Towers?
    Note that kPower Open-AWE_IP-Cloud concepts include kite-diesel hybrids and AWES operating over wind towers, as possible synergies.

    Many remote communities are dependent on diesel, and wind alone will not do. By creating kite-diesel hybrids, the diesel is conserved when there is wind, or fills the gap when there is no wind.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22193 From: dave santos Date: 3/8/2017
    Subject: Re: Kites, Diesel, and Towers?
    Here is a dual input (wind-diesel) generator drive case to add to our list of kite-hybrid power options. This is also third-party validation of the concept of wind-diesel hybrids. This drive is intended for VAWTs, hence the vertical drive-shaft. This may or may not be ideal for a given AWES, but the drive looks like it should work as well turned sideways-





    On Wednesday, March 8, 2017 10:01 AM, "dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
    Note that kPower Open-AWE_IP-Cloud concepts include kite-diesel hybrids and AWES operating over wind towers, as possible synergies.

    Many remote communities are dependent on diesel, and wind alone will not do. By creating kite-diesel hybrids, the diesel is conserved when there is wind, or fills the gap when there is no wind.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22194 From: gordon_sp Date: 3/8/2017
    Subject: Re: Balloon Kite AWE
    Attachments :
      The attached document shows my latest thinking on a 1 megawatt AWE system. Your opinion would be appreciated. I also attach my previous document.

      References for the attached documents:

      First Message from Gordon Spilkin - 19 messages starting at message #16044

      Universal Joints - Message #17488. 


      		   @@attachment@@
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22195 From: benhaiemp Date: 3/8/2017
      Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings

      (Hair-splitting)².
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22196 From: dave santos Date: 3/8/2017
      Subject: Re: Balloon Kite AWE [2 Attachments]
      Hi Gordon,

      .docx is a proprietary Microsoft format, so not everyone has products that open them (I don't). Even PDF is defective, for the same reason. Berners-Lee's HTML is the gold standard of an open format, and Microsoft has always sought to impose proprietary formats. 

      Also be ready to justify balloon lifting gas dependence, with all its historic, economic, and technical challenges. LTA is a harsh mistress on all counts.

      Looking forward to any solutions to the standing problems,

      dave


      On Wednesday, March 8, 2017 10:32 AM, "gordon_sp@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
      [Attachment(s) from gordon_sp@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy] included below]
      The attached document shows my latest thinking on a 1 megawatt AWE system. Your opinion would be appreciated. I also attach my previous document.

      References for the attached documents:
      First Message from Gordon Spilkin - 19 messages starting at message #16044
      Universal Joints - Message #17488. 
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22197 From: benhaiemp Date: 3/8/2017
      Subject: Re: Kites, Diesel, and Towers?

      DaveS,


      We have to correct your last statement as " AWES operating over wind towers..." as mixing it with your previous statement as "kite sports are clearly AWE" produce something like [kite sports operating over wind towers...]. No sense. So please stop your (hair-splitting)² and try to argue on the content.  

      Some temporary conclusion is that today rigid wing is a possible AWE (do I have to specify [excepted for kite sports?] solution. Rigid kites are tested by Makani, Ampyx, Kitemill, Enerkite...


      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22198 From: dave santos Date: 3/8/2017
      Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings
      Pierre,

      It would not be hair-splitting if you had to pass a school exam on the basic engineering vocabulary of textiles. Here you are only asked to post technical content at an expert level, if you can.

      To compare with music, a subject you are expert in, imagine a non-musician unable to distinguish between key and tempo, who could only retort "(Hair-splitting)²". That would be a non-expert reaction.

      Its surely not "hair-splitting" to point out that soft kites currently far outlast any rigid wing AWES, and will continue to do so for many years to come (based on critical path analysis),

      daveS


      On Wednesday, March 8, 2017 11:19 AM, "pierre-benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
      (Hair-splitting)².
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22199 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/8/2017
      Subject: Re: Balloon Kite AWE
      PDFs of Gordon's two files: 
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22200 From: dave santos Date: 3/8/2017
      Subject: Re: Kites, Diesel, and Towers?
      Pierre,

      Note that several of us have already flown sport kites around wind towers, both below and and above them. eKite video comes to mind, and I have flown around a Vestas at the American WInd Power Museum.

      Its not hair-splitting to recognize such combinations are not limited to a general stratification of the sport kites and small-AWES with regard to towers and AWES at the FAA target altitude, nor to understand what "polymer" means.

      Good luck hair-splitting with fine accuracy,

      daveS


      On Wednesday, March 8, 2017 11:26 AM, "pierre-benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
      DaveS,

      We have to correct your last statement as " AWES operating over wind towers..." as mixing it with your previous statement as "kite sports are clearly AWE" produce something like [kite sports operating over wind towers...]. No sense. So please stop your (hair-splitting)² and try to argue on the content.  
      Some temporary conclusion is that today rigid wing is a possible AWE (do I have to specify [excepted for kite sports?] solution. Rigid kites are tested by Makani, Ampyx, Kitemill, Enerkite...



      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22201 From: benhaiemp Date: 3/8/2017
      Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings

      DaveS,


      I do not think you can qualify someone as an expert in music, as the given example of key and tempo is quite irrelevant. Concerning AWE could you produce a peer-reviewed paper? Oh, I can admit Nearzero saw you as an AWE expert.
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22202 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/8/2017
      Subject: Re: Balloon Kite AWE
      Free Adobe Reader to reader PDFs:
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22203 From: dave santos Date: 3/8/2017
      Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings
      The idea is that anyone who confused "key" and "tempo" the way you confuse textile terms would clearly not be an expert in music, especially if they thought the misuse of terms was "hair-splitting".

      Note that the AWES Forum is a form of peer review in AWE-









      On Wednesday, March 8, 2017 12:09 PM, "pierre-benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
      DaveS,

      I do not think you can qualify someone as an expert in music, as the given example of key and tempo is quite irrelevant. Concerning AWE could you produce a peer-reviewed paper? Oh, I can admit Nearzero saw you as an AWE expert.
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22204 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/8/2017
      Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings
           Moderator note: 
       It may be fundamental to RAD to delve deeply into terms, meanings, distinctions, contrasts, comparisons, application spaces, etc.     Polite hearing of efforts at making distinctions allows all to put in efforts that may hold value.  It may injure the conversations to laconically continue exponents over the criticism of "hair-splitting" without adding further positive content in the flow.   Careful splitting of concepts is a time-honored method that has the potential to uncover otherwise hidden matters; and such process often is a preamble for the formulation of astute generalizations or theorems.     It is possible for two or more people to work very hard at getting on the same page; perceptions, definitions, context, purposes, backgrounds, etc. may provide nuances that challenge getting a common understanding even on apparently simple matters.  Patience and long-suffering while continuing to build raw material for eventual common understanding is recommended. 

      It is good to discern carefully even tiny corners of AWE; sometimes the exploration is messy and confusing; such may be part of the cost of eventual clarity.     Keep up the good work and careful sharing to advance the arts, crafts, and sciences serving energy-kite systems!   
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22205 From: dave santos Date: 3/8/2017
      Subject: Re: Balloon Kite AWE
      Sorry to Gordon for the digression.

      I do have a free PDF reader capability by whatever defaults occurred, but would hesitate to install a "free" one, due to terms-and-conditions and general ethics. Adobe is always pestering me to "upgrade". HTML remains the people's format, without a for-profit corporate master. On the other hand, good luck to all who chase the contending formats. Let the world have both kinds of models. I do pirate private formats if necessary.


      On Wednesday, March 8, 2017 12:23 PM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
      Free Adobe Reader to reader PDFs:
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22206 From: dave santos Date: 3/8/2017
      Subject: Re: Soft vs Rigid Wings
      Thanks Joe.

      Its true that this is the place in AWE where "hair-splitting" is embraced in all its positive senses, like meticulously making sure we are using terms-of-art, like "polymer" and "rip-stop" correctly.

      The same applies to applying whatever primitive metrics we can, like <1wk session record for hard wing AWES (Makani) v  
           Moderator note: 
       It may be fundamental to RAD to delve deeply into terms, meanings, distinctions, contrasts, comparisons, application spaces, etc.     Polite hearing of efforts at making distinctions allows all to put in efforts that may hold value.  It may injure the conversations to laconically continue exponents over the criticism of "hair-splitting" without adding further positive content in the flow.   Careful splitting of concepts is a time-honored method that has the potential to uncover otherwise hidden matters; and such process often is a preamble for the formulation of astute generalizations or theorems.     It is possible for two or more people to work very hard at getting on the same page; perceptions, definitions, context, purposes, backgrounds, etc. may provide nuances that challenge getting a common understanding even on apparently simple matters.  Patience and long-suffering while continuing to build raw material for eventual common understanding is recommended. 

      It is good to discern carefully even tiny corners of AWE; sometimes the exploration is messy and confusing; such may be part of the cost of eventual clarity.     Keep up the good work and careful sharing to advance the arts, crafts, and sciences serving energy-kite systems!   
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22207 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/8/2017
      Subject: Re: Balloon Kite AWE
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22208 From: dave santos Date: 3/8/2017
      Subject: "Huge Inflatable Solar Updraft Tower" Concept
      It will be apparent to anyone knowledgeable in ... , call it, "Soft Aerospace", that this visionary inflated tower concept can be enhanced by kite principles and methods. Note also a potential Lindstrand-Branson-BEV social network path to new AWE R&D. Branson himself is also a legendary balloonist, and avid kite-surfer-
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 22209 From: dave santos Date: 3/9/2017
      Subject: "Time-Crystals" in Kite-Matter and "Coreographed Order" of Dancing
      Study of kite lattice dynamics in light of advanced physics led to "kitematter" metamaterial concepts presented on the AWES Forum in recent years. The general physics is rapidly evolving, with major announcements coming in relentless succession. Yesterday Nature announced the existence of "Time Crystals", and WSJ tweeted the news rapturously, smelling money. The fact is, time-crystals are both ordinary and extraordinary; they represent above-all a new way of looking at dynamical matter phases by condensed-matter Physics that is driving a materials-science revolution.

      The new science has been brewing within the elite physics community for a few years, a hair-splitting process of formalizing intuitions into a common framework of defined terms, specific equations, and initial experimental validations. The thermodynamic parallel to time-crystallography is Coreographic Order. Here the "dancing kite" comes into its own as an experimental QM analog even better than the "bouncing-drops" of [Couder et al].

      So what is this time-crystal-in-the-sky technology, in simple terms? A pumping kite lattice requires some wind energy just to stay up and pump weakly, with no extra energy to tap. This is its zero-point energy whose regular pumping motions create time crystal coreographic order. Add more wind energy, and the pumping can be tapped. Its robust order, up to max-wind max-load limits. Its not a system in equilibrium, where time-crystals are forbidden, but an open system processing energy (dissapative-system, in Progogine's view). Its really just thermodynamic order extended into Minkowski Spacetime, and, heads-up WSJ, our theoretic pumping kite lattices have it.





      Coreographic Order-


      Metamaterial Time Crystals-