Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                          AWES 19674 to 19724 Page 287 of 440.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19674 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/5/2016
Subject: Re: Tim Elverston thinks ...while repairing wings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19675 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/6/2016
Subject: Re: Tim Elverston thinks ...while repairing wings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19676 From: dave santos Date: 2/6/2016
Subject: Re: Tim Elverston thinks ...while repairing wings

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19677 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/8/2016
Subject: TensiNet Library

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19678 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/8/2016
Subject: Tether Pigging

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19679 From: dave santos Date: 2/8/2016
Subject: Re: TensiNet Library

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19680 From: dave santos Date: 2/8/2016
Subject: Re: Tether Pigging

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19681 From: dave santos Date: 2/8/2016
Subject: "Robonautic" automation of AWES

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19682 From: dave santos Date: 2/9/2016
Subject: KiteGen "One to watch" by Cleantech Group

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19683 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/9/2016
Subject: When fusion succeeds robustly, then what of AWES?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19684 From: dave santos Date: 2/10/2016
Subject: Open Invitation: DIY Kite Energy at SXSW2016

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19685 From: dave santos Date: 2/10/2016
Subject: Re: When fusion succeeds robustly, then what of AWES?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19686 From: dave santos Date: 2/10/2016
Subject: Most-Common Kite-Farm Meteorological Threats

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19687 From: dave santos Date: 2/10/2016
Subject: Re: Most-Common Kite-Farm Meteorological Threats

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19688 From: snapscan_snapscan Date: 2/11/2016
Subject: Re: Open Invitation: DIY Kite Energy at SXSW2016

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19689 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 2/11/2016
Subject: Re: WindLift Update

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19690 From: dave santos Date: 2/11/2016
Subject: Re: WindLift Update

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19691 From: dave santos Date: 2/11/2016
Subject: Re: PULLING AIRBONEWINDENERGY INVESTMENTS - AWEIA INITIATIVES

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19692 From: dave santos Date: 2/11/2016
Subject: Enhanced Flight-Stability by Optimal Topological-Order

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19693 From: dave santos Date: 2/11/2016
Subject: Mysterious New Player: SkyPull

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19694 From: dave santos Date: 2/11/2016
Subject: Re: Mysterious New Player: SkyPull

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19695 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/11/2016
Subject: Re: Mysterious New Player: SkyPull

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19696 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 2/12/2016
Subject: Re: WindLift Update

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19697 From: dave santos Date: 2/12/2016
Subject: Re: WindLift Update

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19698 From: aldocatt Date: 2/12/2016
Subject: Re: Mysterious New Player: SkyPull

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19699 From: dave santos Date: 2/12/2016
Subject: AWEIA Progressing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19700 From: dave santos Date: 2/12/2016
Subject: BWK (German Energy Engineering Magazine) coverage of AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19701 From: dave santos Date: 2/12/2016
Subject: WPI Undersea Kite Update

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19702 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/13/2016
Subject: Re: AWEIA Progressing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19703 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/13/2016
Subject: Re: New record for lightest "solid" ?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19704 From: Rod Read Date: 2/13/2016
Subject: Re: AWEIA Progressing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19705 From: Rod Read Date: 2/13/2016
Subject: Re: New record for lightest "solid" ?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19707 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/13/2016
Subject: Children's education through use of AWES

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19708 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/13/2016
Subject: Re: New record for lightest "solid" ?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19709 From: dave santos Date: 2/14/2016
Subject: Re: AWEIA Progressing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19710 From: dave santos Date: 2/14/2016
Subject: Re: AWEIA Progressing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19711 From: dave santos Date: 2/14/2016
Subject: Ragnarok 2016 Shaping Up

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19712 From: dave santos Date: 2/15/2016
Subject: AWE developmental timeline updated

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19713 From: dave santos Date: 2/15/2016
Subject: kPower Multi-Channel Kite-Engine in Bench-Testing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19714 From: dave santos Date: 2/16/2016
Subject: Cheap Giant de Prony Brake for large-scale multi-traction-kite AWES

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19715 From: dave santos Date: 2/16/2016
Subject: Re: Cheap Giant de Prony Brake for large-scale multi-traction-kite A

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19716 From: dave santos Date: 2/16/2016
Subject: Multi-Engine Transmission "Cross-Box" suited for 10MW Multi-Channel

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19717 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Satellite Launch Kite Question

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19718 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Cheap Giant de Prony Brake for large-scale multi-traction-kite A

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19719 From: dave santos Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Satellite Launch Kite Question

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19720 From: dave santos Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Cheap Giant de Prony Brake for large-scale multi-traction-kite A

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19721 From: dave santos Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: another simple dynamically-stable pumping-kite mode

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19722 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/18/2016
Subject: Cyclic Pulling Locally or Globally

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19723 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/18/2016
Subject: Re: Cyclic Pulling Locally or Globally

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19724 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2016
Subject: Re: Cyclic Pulling Locally or Globally



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19674 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/5/2016
Subject: Re: Tim Elverston thinks ...while repairing wings

At Tim's fine site, he has another strong article:

UV degradation, and other factors. — by Tim Elverston
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19675 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/6/2016
Subject: Re: Tim Elverston thinks ...while repairing wings
Doug Selsam gives some notes:

The quote: "We paragliders always do that, to minimize UV-exposure when the glider is on the ground.  My question to you guys is how does the fabric in a paraglider differ from a kite, and why is so much more sensitive to these things"

*** The response:  I don't think the fabric of a paraglider is more sensitive to UV than kite fabric.  I think what's going on is that paragliders' lives are hanging on an intact canopy.  The difference is ruining your day at the beach, or ending your life.

Interesting note:  Hang gliders built in ~1984 are still in use with the original sails.  I've been flying one lately, as do a few other pilots I know, who are very experienced.  Some people prefer the older gliders.  They used thicker fabric back then, but still, how long can they really last?  What sort of failure mode(s) might we expect?  Scary to think about.  

Meanwhile I have a kite that LOOKS like a small hang glider, (delta) which flew for maybe a few hours total before it was falling apart and began requiring duct tape, etc.  It was never able to handle strong winds well.  I'd guess it flew for maybe a total of 3 or 4 hours at most before it began to fall apart.

Why was the kite designed and built to such a low standard?  Because its purpose was to make a sale at a kite store, not to keep someone alive a couple miles in the sky.  People take better care of paragliders than kites because their lives are on the line.

Now bear in mind, I must have said something wrong here, probably something really bad.  But don't worry:  There is someone who will make sure they correct me and perhaps also castigate me.  So stay tuned and you will see that predictable response soon.  It is very important for some people to always "have the last word".  They can't help themselves.  Ready, set, go!


~ Doug Selsam

_____________________________________________________________

Moderator:  Hopefully there is no last word on technical topics when there is so much room for improving clarity, view, solution. Keep the discussions going on matters that are important for safety, energy production, efficiency, ...  It is encouraged that there be no last word on matters.  Let's hope idea sharpening occurs, not castigation; we are aiming for a run of no personal attacks in our forum.

Duct tape - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19676 From: dave santos Date: 2/6/2016
Subject: Re: Tim Elverston thinks ...while repairing wings
Doug asked: "Some people prefer the older gliders. They used thicker fabric back then, but still, how long can they really last? What sort of failure mode(s) might we expect? Scary to think about."

Answer: Mil-spec chutes stored for decades typically pass testing, so can well stored old fabric wings of high original quality. Airplane fabric passes testing after well over a decade outdoors, owing to its aluminum and/or titanium-dioxide paint.

Catastrophic-failure by long-tearing and/or excess porosity are the basic aged-fabric failure modes. Older HG skins should be regularly tested for weave and seam tear-strength and porosity by a skilled technician, and the pilot should wear a reserve chute and stay high without aggressive maneuvers. The key lesson is to know your fabric (and fly accordingly), since appearance alone is unreliable.

Doug wrote: "I don't think the fabric of a paraglider is more sensitive to UV than kite fabric."

Comment: Tim explains not only why paraglider fabric is better than average kite fabric, including UV resistance, but how the ram-air parafoil in particular is more robust against UV damage, by more uniform loading:

"The good news is, paraglider fabric is in an upper echelon of fabrics, and rapidly adopts, and drives all the latest advancements in all the relevant areas of textile technologies. It's incredible stuff, and honestly much of the paranoia is just paranoia. I know that nearly every paraglider wing we touch is a cut above all of the kitesurfing kites on the market. Also, they tend to wear much more evenly over the entire wing surface than does a LEI type kite surfing kite. They wear better because a ram-air foil is simply a more force-balanced structure than a LEI with rigid pneumatic structural components. ie., the force map on a ram-air foil is beautifully uniform and free of major hot spots of stress."
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19677 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/8/2016
Subject: TensiNet Library

TensiNet Library

================
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19678 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/8/2016
Subject: Tether Pigging

AWES that involve hollow tethers for the transport of goods, people, fluids, gases, etc. may be inspected, cleaned, or repaired by pigging with various pigs.

Pigging - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Care for tethers has received some attention in forum.  Line crawlers have been given some attention.

Think of external or internal line pigging.  Pigs may be smart, GPS reporting, cleaners, repairers, inspectors, plugging, ...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19679 From: dave santos Date: 2/8/2016
Subject: Re: TensiNet Library
TensiNet is an established interdisciplinary movement ready for us to inform about future soft-kite aerotecture, via their annual conferences. Its up to us to further establish and present the new airborne tensile-structure perspective*, building on TensileNet's strong spatial structure paradigm.
--------------------
* The previous revolution was fixed (non-airborne) tensile structures that are now mainstream. The next revolution is dynamic tensile structuring of free-space.


On Monday, February 8, 2016 10:35 AM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
================
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19680 From: dave santos Date: 2/8/2016
Subject: Re: Tether Pigging
A nice student project would be a robotic line-climbing pig that inspects, maintains, and even repairs a kiteline during flight. Likely the persistent airborne tensile structures we envision will eventually require such pigs. Acoustic and visual inspection together would cover most relevant conditions. Splices could be rat-tail whipped, with adhesives. Its a very simplified robotic domain, given the quasi 1D working environment of pipes and tensioned lines.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19681 From: dave santos Date: 2/8/2016
Subject: "Robonautic" automation of AWES
An overlooked long-term automation basis for AWES is humanoid robots (kite androids). This concept provides a means to automate human tasks without redesigning the work interfaces. NASA is just one active developer of humanoid robotics capabilities ("Robonaut" prototype already in testing on ISS), which should continue to develop at a relatively fast pace-
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19682 From: dave santos Date: 2/9/2016
Subject: KiteGen "One to watch" by Cleantech Group
Cleantech Group is "watching" a few AWE players, especially KiteGen

We are also watching KiteGen closely, for over a year now, for their new super-wing to fly; but its likely just too "hot" to control by their current actuation hardware, or maybe it doesn't launch readily in fitful Northern Italian winds, hanging upside down near the surface...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19683 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/9/2016
Subject: When fusion succeeds robustly, then what of AWES?

When fusion succeeds robustly, then what of AWES?

============================================

ITER - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19684 From: dave santos Date: 2/10/2016
Subject: Open Invitation: DIY Kite Energy at SXSW2016
Ed Sapir of kPower reports that Austin KiteLab has secured free exhibition space for Open AWE at SXSW Interactive Create (Mar 11-13). Anyone working in AWE R&D is invited to join in, either this year, or future years, as AWE becomes a star technology. Visiting developers are offered basic home-style hospitality (camping, loaner-bikes, meals, etc) by kPower. Experience why Austin is the US epicenter of a surging community-based DIY tech culture, and become part of the story. We'll also be doing AWES field demos before, during, and after the event, at local kite fields-
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19685 From: dave santos Date: 2/10/2016
Subject: Re: When fusion succeeds robustly, then what of AWES?
When fusion succeeds, AWE will likely endure just as sailing does after the Golden Age of Sail ended, as a passionate or marginal life-style.

Fusion will not happen as fast small and cheap as AWE. ITER is only intended to operate for 1000sec, with no actual electrical generation. Its a 30yr experiment already  
When fusion succeeds robustly, then what of AWES?
============================================
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19686 From: dave santos Date: 2/10/2016
Subject: Most-Common Kite-Farm Meteorological Threats
A strong-wind event predicted well-in-advance is easy for a kitefarm to prepare for by landing or furling. What are the most-common troublesome strong-wind threats to kitefarm operations, due to weak predictability? Downburst straight-line winds and Mesovorticity can kill any AWES by surprise. The burden is currently on the AWES operator to do real-time micro-meteorological sense-and-avoid of these semi-random killer events that pop-up rather often in the prevailing flow-
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19687 From: dave santos Date: 2/10/2016
Subject: Re: Most-Common Kite-Farm Meteorological Threats
Progress in meteorology is feeding right into Wikipedia. Old weather mysteries are being revealed en-masse to the masses. These links detail universal hidden structure in cloud formations that involve both straight and vortical winds. Its not rare peak events that fundamentally menace kitefarm operations, but common small-scale instances occurring overhead unnoticed (unless you are flying a kite, etc)-
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19688 From: snapscan_snapscan Date: 2/11/2016
Subject: Re: Open Invitation: DIY Kite Energy at SXSW2016
Dear Dave&Ed,

Thank you for making this happen - count me in! I would love to enjoy your home-style hospitality again :)

I will pm you to arrange for the details.

/cb
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19689 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 2/11/2016
Subject: Re: WindLift Update
Glad to hear of WindLift again.
I still appreciate Rob's cooperative stance from early days.
If I may ask here, does WindLift appreciate membership of AWEIA and can we here request some token of support to AWEIA from WindLift and other AWE Teams agreeable to #OpenAWE?
Thanks again to KiteLab Group and kpower technologies (Austin, TX) for past supports - the only from anywhere outside Nigeria; yet.
Further lifts.
JohnO
AWEIA
 
John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
Managing Consultant & CEO
Hardensoft International Limited
<Technologies  
WindLift is now developing a 10kW kiteplane for remote markets. Joby motorgens are visible on a carbon winged platform reminiscent of Makani's Wing7. Apparently, WindLift is developing its niche product in the open gap Makani leaves behind by going toward larger scales. Note the NASA LaARC connection, suggesting the LaRC NI Labview-based vision tracking control system is the automation basis.

Good to see Rob still at it, but the standing AWES question remains whether a complex kiteplane can safely survive to economic payback anytime soon-
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19690 From: dave santos Date: 2/11/2016
Subject: Re: WindLift Update
JohnO,

Rob went down a strange path in believing that he was uniquely qualified to create an AWES for US military expeditionary forces in Afghanistan (an offer the US Army proactively made to me that I turned down as unworkable). So Rob jumps from a nice prototype made from scrap to quickly spending a million US taxpayer dollars for an AWES unsuited to either battlefield or humanitarian requirements.

We also differed on key technical points. Rob insisted that soft wings could not reduce Lift Coefficient enough for reeling-AWES retract, without understanding kPower's non-reeling (short-stroke) AWES worked just fine (and that soft-wing furling options make CL-reduction a moot issue). Rob also always thought active flight automation was key, unable to imagine passive kite stability as the foundation for maximal reliability. In effect, Rob has bet against Open-AWE thinking at every point.

Despite major funding, WindLift is not likely to embrace AWEIA's mission with even a token contribution. After all, AWEIA does not stand for anything in particular that supports WindLift's chosen path. The odd new twist that WindLift is offering biotech services (Rob's educational background) implies both lack-of-focus and dwindling capital. WindLift's late adoption of a "me-too" carbon kiteplane concept faces direct competition by better resourced players, for what only seems in Open-AWE thinking like a scale-limited economic dead-end niche.

AWEIA needs to raise funds broadly and systematically, as a community effort. This process is well established in many mature fields, so there is no mystery how its done. The key part is that AWEIA has to deliver Industry Association service value to its members, and this is a long slow effort starting from scratch. My hope is that AWEIA can tie-in to a major new phase of AWE R&D.

Please try to work Twitter to AWEIA's advantage, as others continue try other doors. We persist together to succeed together. Lets hope WindLift comes back into AWEIA Open-AWE circles on a win-win basis,

dave


On Thursday, February 11, 2016 7:47 AM, "Hardensoft International Limited hardensoftintl@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Glad to hear of WindLift again.
I still appreciate Rob's cooperative stance from early days.
If I may ask here, does WindLift appreciate membership of AWEIA and can we here request some token of support to AWEIA from WindLift and other AWE Teams agreeable to #OpenAWE?
Thanks again to KiteLab Group and kpower technologies (Austin, TX) for past supports - the only from anywhere outside Nigeria; yet.
Further lifts.
JohnO
AWEIA
 
John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
Managing Consultant & CEO
Hardensoft International Limited
<Technologies  
WindLift is now developing a 10kW kiteplane for remote markets. Joby motorgens are visible on a carbon winged platform reminiscent of Makani's Wing7. Apparently, WindLift is developing its niche product in the open gap Makani leaves behind by going toward larger scales. Note the NASA LaARC connection, suggesting the LaRC NI Labview-based vision tracking control system is the automation basis.

Good to see Rob still at it, but the standing AWES question remains whether a complex kiteplane can safely survive to economic payback anytime soon-
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19691 From: dave santos Date: 2/11/2016
Subject: Re: PULLING AIRBONEWINDENERGY INVESTMENTS - AWEIA INITIATIVES
Best of Luck, JohnO, with your efforts.

Not just AWEIA, but other AWE-supportive NGO orgs like Drachen Foundation and World Kite Museum, deserve far more support, for their vital AWE involvement, from venture-funding largesse mostly poorly spent. Perhaps the biggest public challenge is better support for independent academia in AWE. Almost all academic AWE players suffer by overly-narrow venture-driven programs, rather than practice broad scientific exploration.

AWEIA cannot lose by standing for the broadest possible stakeholder interests, but the early years have been very tough, starting with Joby/Makani/Google rejection of AWEIA's inclusivity, in favor of setting-up AWEC's pay-to-play scheme. A current obstacle is that the AWEC circle refuses to work cooperatively toward a US conference, having been taken over by the most secretive and exclusive EU venture players, in the wake of Makani's abandonment.  

*sigh*


On Thursday, February 11, 2016 7:30 AM, "President-protem, Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association" <president@aweia.org from KiteLab Group being faithful cofounders of AWEIA supporting the vision of OpenAWE and the cooperative AWE Investment basket cum Patent-pool.
With limited internet access data-time; I find Twitter via SMS now my most friendly media tool and I have done quite a bit trying to enlighten my readers on #OpenAWE via my personal handle @johnoyebanji
It is important that someone amongst us (Ed?) now try to follow closely and help target emerging investor-leads to engage them more seriously than I would be able to do.
Interestingly @BillGates , @AlGore and @POTUS are all sufficiently active on Twitter to be intelligently engaged and courted.
I have sent an SMS directly to our own Ed Sapir (being AWEIA Treasurer ) on a particular lead that I think might even be of help.
We certainly need to engage audiences outside of the Yahoo forum while hoping to attract them over. Let us launch out now into the deep and cast our nets on the right side for a draught.
Further Lifts;
JohnO
AWEIA
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19692 From: dave santos Date: 2/11/2016
Subject: Enhanced Flight-Stability by Optimal Topological-Order
Progress in AWE R&D manifests on many fronts, including our fundamental conceptualizations. In particular, we now relate specific topological order and stability of kite-farms to control-theoretic metrics, by formal concepts well understood across the disciplines, furthering AWES performance, safety, and reliability.

Conventional HAWT windfarms represent a highly stable topological-order. The turbine units do not wander the sky like aerobatic single-line kites that sooner-or-later crash or tangle with anything in reach. Crashing and tangling are predictable entropic disorderings of the unstable AWES brush topology of single-line units closely arrayed as a kitefarm. Reeling AWES creates a complex variable topology. Flygens add raw complexity aloft. Its a steeper challenge to perfect active controls to make up for inherent topological instabilities and over-complications.

Airborne lattices with higher topological order and stability represent the optimal AWES flight-stability trade-off design-space. Simple cheap passive constraints, like brace-lines, can be directly compared to more expensive and complex active controls, for the same DoF stability factor. In both theory and experiments, kite units in a string-lattice constraint network fly far more stably by emergent coherent group statistics.

This is what is meant by "Enhanced Flight-Stability by Optimal Topological-Order". Early AWES active-control efforts will do best if built upon many-connected AWES lattice topological stability.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19693 From: dave santos Date: 2/11/2016
Subject: Mysterious New Player: SkyPull
"The Round Kite Gen Concept"
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19694 From: dave santos Date: 2/11/2016
Subject: Re: Mysterious New Player: SkyPull
SkyPull's CTO did a one-year stint at KiteGen-




On Thursday, February 11, 2016 4:16 PM, "dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
"The Round Kite Gen Concept"
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19695 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/11/2016
Subject: Re: Mysterious New Player: SkyPull

He noted his two patents:

Patent WO2011011018A1 - Portable cylindrical and conical spiral wind turbine


and

EP2706230 (A1)  -  Turbine and control system of the over- power of said turbine 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19696 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 2/12/2016
Subject: Re: WindLift Update
Thanks for the update, DaveS.

Lifts.
JohnO
 
John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
Managing Consultant & CEO
Hardensoft International Limited
<Technologies  
JohnO,

Rob went down a strange path in believing that he was uniquely qualified to create an AWES for US military expeditionary forces in Afghanistan (an offer the US Army proactively made to me that I turned down as unworkable). So Rob jumps from a nice prototype made from scrap to quickly spending a million US taxpayer dollars for an AWES unsuited to either battlefield or humanitarian requirements.

We also differed on key technical points. Rob insisted that soft wings could not reduce Lift Coefficient enough for reeling-AWES retract, without understanding kPower's non-reeling (short-stroke) AWES worked just fine (and that soft-wing furling options make CL-reduction a moot issue). Rob also always thought active flight automation was key, unable to imagine passive kite stability as the foundation for maximal reliability. In effect, Rob has bet against Open-AWE thinking at every point.

Despite major funding, WindLift is not likely to embrace AWEIA's mission with even a token contribution. After all, AWEIA does not stand for anything in particular that supports WindLift's chosen path. The odd new twist that WindLift is offering biotech services (Rob's educational background) implies both lack-of-focus and dwindling capital. WindLift's late adoption of a "me-too" carbon kiteplane concept faces direct competition by better resourced players, for what only seems in Open-AWE thinking like a scale-limited economic dead-end niche.

AWEIA needs to raise funds broadly and systematically, as a community effort. This process is well established in many mature fields, so there is no mystery how its done. The key part is that AWEIA has to deliver Industry Association service value to its members, and this is a long slow effort starting from scratch. My hope is that AWEIA can tie-in to a major new phase of AWE R&D.

Please try to work Twitter to AWEIA's advantage, as others continue try other doors. We persist together to succeed together. Lets hope WindLift comes back into AWEIA Open-AWE circles on a win-win basis,

dave


On Thursday, February 11, 2016 7:47 AM, "Hardensoft International Limited hardensoftintl@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Glad to hear of WindLift again.
I still appreciate Rob's cooperative stance from early days.
If I may ask here, does WindLift appreciate membership of AWEIA and can we here request some token of support to AWEIA from WindLift and other AWE Teams agreeable to #OpenAWE?
Thanks again to KiteLab Group and kpower technologies (Austin, TX) for past supports - the only from anywhere outside Nigeria; yet.
Further lifts.
JohnO
AWEIA
 
John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
Managing Consultant & CEO
Hardensoft International Limited
<Technologies  
WindLift is now developing a 10kW kiteplane for remote markets. Joby motorgens are visible on a carbon winged platform reminiscent of Makani's Wing7. Apparently, WindLift is developing its niche product in the open gap Makani leaves behind by going toward larger scales. Note the NASA LaARC connection, suggesting the LaRC NI Labview-based vision tracking control system is the automation basis.

Good to see Rob still at it, but the standing AWES question remains whether a complex kiteplane can safely survive to economic payback anytime soon-
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19697 From: dave santos Date: 2/12/2016
Subject: Re: WindLift Update
JohnO,

Don't let the WindLift narrative discourage us from thinking Rob might support AWEIA and Open-AWE in the future. The main thing is to treat AWEIA's fundraising as a broad collective effort aimed systematically at all players. The wealthiest teams in particular could really float AWEIA's boat, but WindLift seems to have run through its major capitalization.

The best strategy is to develop AWEIA to the next level of relevance at the same time that AWE players are asked to contribute. This would be a coordinated push best elaborated in its own topic thread. Count on kPower and KiteLab Group to do what they can,

daveS


On Friday, February 12, 2016 6:26 AM, "Hardensoft International Limited hardensoftintl@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Thanks for the update, DaveS.

Lifts.
JohnO
 
John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
Managing Consultant & CEO
Hardensoft International Limited
<Technologies  
JohnO,

Rob went down a strange path in believing that he was uniquely qualified to create an AWES for US military expeditionary forces in Afghanistan (an offer the US Army proactively made to me that I turned down as unworkable). So Rob jumps from a nice prototype made from scrap to quickly spending a million US taxpayer dollars for an AWES unsuited to either battlefield or humanitarian requirements.

We also differed on key technical points. Rob insisted that soft wings could not reduce Lift Coefficient enough for reeling-AWES retract, without understanding kPower's non-reeling (short-stroke) AWES worked just fine (and that soft-wing furling options make CL-reduction a moot issue). Rob also always thought active flight automation was key, unable to imagine passive kite stability as the foundation for maximal reliability. In effect, Rob has bet against Open-AWE thinking at every point.

Despite major funding, WindLift is not likely to embrace AWEIA's mission with even a token contribution. After all, AWEIA does not stand for anything in particular that supports WindLift's chosen path. The odd new twist that WindLift is offering biotech services (Rob's educational background) implies both lack-of-focus and dwindling capital. WindLift's late adoption of a "me-too" carbon kiteplane concept faces direct competition by better resourced players, for what only seems in Open-AWE thinking like a scale-limited economic dead-end niche.

AWEIA needs to raise funds broadly and systematically, as a community effort. This process is well established in many mature fields, so there is no mystery how its done. The key part is that AWEIA has to deliver Industry Association service value to its members, and this is a long slow effort starting from scratch. My hope is that AWEIA can tie-in to a major new phase of AWE R&D.

Please try to work Twitter to AWEIA's advantage, as others continue try other doors. We persist together to succeed together. Lets hope WindLift comes back into AWEIA Open-AWE circles on a win-win basis,

dave


On Thursday, February 11, 2016 7:47 AM, "Hardensoft International Limited hardensoftintl@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Glad to hear of WindLift again.
I still appreciate Rob's cooperative stance from early days.
If I may ask here, does WindLift appreciate membership of AWEIA and can we here request some token of support to AWEIA from WindLift and other AWE Teams agreeable to #OpenAWE?
Thanks again to KiteLab Group and kpower technologies (Austin, TX) for past supports - the only from anywhere outside Nigeria; yet.
Further lifts.
JohnO
AWEIA
 
John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
Managing Consultant & CEO
Hardensoft International Limited
<Technologies  
WindLift is now developing a 10kW kiteplane for remote markets. Joby motorgens are visible on a carbon winged platform reminiscent of Makani's Wing7. Apparently, WindLift is developing its niche product in the open gap Makani leaves behind by going toward larger scales. Note the NASA LaARC connection, suggesting the LaRC NI Labview-based vision tracking control system is the automation basis.

Good to see Rob still at it, but the standing AWES question remains whether a complex kiteplane can safely survive to economic payback anytime soon-
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19698 From: aldocatt Date: 2/12/2016
Subject: Re: Mysterious New Player: SkyPull
Hello to everybody,
these 2 patents are referring to ground system turbine! the next patent for AWE system has still to arrive!!!
you will see it in 1,5 years!
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19699 From: dave santos Date: 2/12/2016
Subject: AWEIA Progressing
The Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association is now six years old. A lot happened in AWE during that time. AWEIA supported the creation of our first conference (HAWPCON09), and then weathered years of marginalization by AWEC (a secretive pay-to-play consortium led by Joby-Makani venture capital insiders, that emerged privately after the conference, whose failed monopolistic initiatives divided us deeply. AWEC now seems spent, having failed to broadly advance AWE, or even just the narrow interests of its backers). AWEIA is freed to resume leadership on a more democratic basis respecting all stakeholders.

AWE is now entering a major new growth phase, with many more players and far more investment at a higher level of technological development. AWEIA is responsible to keep pace and even drive the developments. This topic is for suggesting specifically what is needed. A first suggestion is that KiteLab Group use its SXSW invitation to raise AWEIA awareness and membership, making Austin, Texas, a strong AWEIA base. We will bring along the closely-connected and growing US NW AWE scene; but its crucial to reactivate AWEIA's global volunteer network of country and regional representatives, and to move forward with an updated consensus agenda.

New members and volunteers can contact JohnO directly, or reply here with further suggestions.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19700 From: dave santos Date: 2/12/2016
Subject: BWK (German Energy Engineering Magazine) coverage of AWE
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19701 From: dave santos Date: 2/12/2016
Subject: WPI Undersea Kite Update
DaveO's lab is showing just how natural it is to apply kite principles across fluid mediums as diverse as sky to sea.

Watch out Minesto, WPI's AWE background stretches back over three decades (starting with Goela)-
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19702 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 2/13/2016
Subject: Re: AWEIA Progressing

AWEIA has a good opportunity to focus on scalability of soft kite towards kilometer range. DaveS has well supported this main hypothesis. Some studies and tests should be useful. Challenges could be made.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19703 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/13/2016
Subject: Re: New record for lightest "solid" ?
Attachments :
    At the graced private tour by JPL's James Ashley

     

    I receive by first close view of an aerogel block on Feb. 12, 2016. Photograph by Angela Boras.
     James W. Ashley has former notes with m on redirecting asteroids by use of plasma kiting; he noted that a pole would be best for kite anchoring to avoid wrapping the tether around the asteroid during the kiting

    Here is a snip from his LinkedIn:
    I am an experienced project manager, space scientist, educator, and entrepreneur with space mission, laboratory, observatory and extensive field instrument experience. I hold 14 years of former career experience as a certified hydrogeologist in the environmental consulting industry.

    I am currently assisting with landing site selection efforts for the Mars 2020 mission at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory/Caltech in Pasadena, California. Additional research has been funded through a NASA Postoctoral Program fellowship to continue assessment of meteorites found on Mars at several rover locations. Meteorites found on other worlds can provide volumes of valuable scientific information about those worlds. 

    My doctoral research addressed the thermal infrared spectroscopy of meteorites on Mars in concert with the Miniature Thermal Emission Spectrometers (Mini-TES) on the Mars Exploration Rover mission, where I also served as Payload Uplink and Downlink leads for the instrument. My postdoctoral work with the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter Cameras (LROC) was based in image analysis and interpretation to help evaluate landforms and geologic processes on the Moon. I have been honored with leading the publication of journal articles and conference presentations on the assessment of impact melt deposits on the lunar farside, confirmation and speleogenesis of subsurface voids in impact melt and mare deposits, thin layering in mare deposits, and the multi-instrument assessment of a silica-rich volcano in Mare Nubium. The discovery of subsurface environments confirm the anticipations of at least 135 years, and make available ready-made structures suitable for protective habitations or storage facilities for exploration.
    ===========================================================
    James W. Ashley and co-authors have a paper in press:
    The Lassell massif--A silicic lunar volcano

    I am looking forward to Dome City on Moon where I may do some kite hang gliding off some ridges there.     JoeF
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19704 From: Rod Read Date: 2/13/2016
    Subject: Re: AWEIA Progressing
    I've got loads of them

    Rod Read

    Windswept and Interesting Limited
    15a Aiginis
    Isle of Lewis
    UK
    HS2 0PB

    07899057227
    01851 870878
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19705 From: Rod Read Date: 2/13/2016
    Subject: Re: New record for lightest "solid" ?
    Do Kites count as -ve weight solids?

    Rod Read

    Windswept and Interesting Limited
    15a Aiginis
    Isle of Lewis
    UK
    HS2 0PB

    07899057227
    01851 870878
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19707 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/13/2016
    Subject: Children's education through use of AWES

    Children's education through their use of AWES

    ======================================


    Start:

    History of craft and materials

    History of aviation

    Understanding the atmosphere

    Wind exploration

    Use of lines

    Tension structures

    Ultralight construction

    Strength of materials

    Messaging

    Electricity

    Safety

    Weather watching for purpose

    Energy conversion

    Potential energy

    Kinetic energy

    Politics of energy

    Teamwork

    Rocketry elements : Balloon and straw

    Splinting air beams

    Knots

    Measurements

    Mathematics

    Tension structures

    Wind power

    Service to others

    Meeting challenges

    Organizing assets

    Failure-mode recognition

    Weather forecasting

    Extreme weather

    Energy

    Work

    Control systems

    Motors

    Generators

    Cost of energy

    Energy storage

    Organizing people to effect change

    Communicating

    Stability

    Instability

    Aggregate stability

    Geometry

    Topology

    Graph theory

    Line handling

    Safety gear

    Planning

    Observing

    Measuring

    Logging

    Calendaring

    Structures
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19708 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/13/2016
    Subject: Re: New record for lightest "solid" ?
    Attachments :
      Intended photo is attached: 
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19709 From: dave santos Date: 2/14/2016
      Subject: Re: AWEIA Progressing
      This topic is about how to continue to progress AWEIA. Pierre, Rod, and Doug should take their non-AWEIA postings to another topic or someAWE.org moderation.

      Doug does not even mention AWEIA in his sad ramblings about smiling scientists  here, much less offer any constructive ideas. He is also factually incorrect (in fact many teams regularly operate the same prototypes to build flight hours, between due rounds of upgraded designs, and at an accelerating pace). His unique blindness to broad progress in AWE is its own curious topic, or should go into the off-topic folder. 

      Its not fair to burden the AWEIA topic with non-productive off-topic distraction.


      On Saturday, February 13, 2016 5:24 PM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
      Doug Selsam
      noted ::

      I do not necessarily see much if any progress.
      Sure, there are many times the number of smiling grad students, plenty of money being wasted without any real results, and a seemingly never-ending parade of kite-reeling efforts.  The problems I see are, after years and years of talk, NONE of these supposed systems is in regular operation.  

      The "Professor Crackpot Syndrome" remains in place.  Most efforts start out saying they can beat the cost of regular windfarms, and in the next breath, without missing a beat, they retreat to promising deployment on some remote island or other advisably inaccessible location, because "power there is so expensive".  Typical "Professor Crackpot" empty talk.  They never seem to explain why that same island or remote location would not simply put up a regular wind turbine or windfarm offering 4-cent/kWh electricity (or solar panels).  And they never explain why, if their system will be "cheaper than regular windfarms", do they even need to talk about such remote locations.  Let alone why anyone would think they should install a prototype system thousands of miles away where it would be nearly inaccessible and could only work out if it happens to be perfect, with no unforeseen problems, which is unlikely for any prototype.  Well, sometimes the good professor is immune from basic reasoning and common-sense.  That we already know.

      In essence, they cannot "pick a lane", even as a start.  It's a case of excuses rather than action, with the reasoning not adding up.  They don't realize it, but all the talk of remote locations and third-world deployment amounts to a mental shell-game of changing the subject just when the real comparative economics would become apparent, to buy a little more time, obfuscating the facts that they have no working system that could even run for more than a day or two, that would be destroyed by a strong wind, and that their concepts could only produce systems so expensive as to be uncompetitive even if they COULD run on a regular basis.  

      This syndrome has been in place in the world of wind energy forever, and the story never changes, only the people involved and the specific inadvisable wannabe technologies promoted.  Same "Professor Crackpot Syndrome", same type of talk, same (lack of) reasoning, same empty claims and empty promises, different day.

      The two most popular and well-publicized U.S. efforts had planned to power high-electricity-cost areas in the 56th and 57th states, respectively, https://www.youtube.com/watch? v=EpGH02DtIws and, as easily predicted, both failed to materialize, offering no explanation.  These projects have already "quietly gone away" which is how Professor Crackpot's wind turbines inevitably culminate their flash-in-the-pan, press-release-as-science existence.  Think "whale-bumps"...

      If kite-reeling doesn't work out as planned, it seems we are almost nowhere.  I can't prove on paper that kite-reeling will not pan out, and I would be happy to see it succeed, but the fact that there is still no kite-reeling system in regular operation, at any scale, by any team, at any location, anywhere in the world, does not seem like an indication of a successful approach.  Seems like it could work out, in spite of my skeptical observations, given the vast amount of power available, but, so far, it just isn't. 

      This is fine with me, and should be fine with most people reading this, as the field remains perpetually "wide open" with pretty much zero competition for anyone who can get a realistic system running reliably!

      So, call it one more case of "Bad News is Good News"!
      It would be good news if a truly workable AWE system emerged, but it is also great news if it remains as a perpetually open goal to be conquered!  If someone ever cracked the code, we'd all have to find something else to think about.  So, be glad.
      :)))
      ~ Doug Selsam
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19710 From: dave santos Date: 2/14/2016
      Subject: Re: AWEIA Progressing
      Its important to give key credit to John Oyebanji, AWEIA's elected founding President, for having endured six tough early years representing a the broader view of AWE R&D, and extended stakeholder concerns, than the exclusive stealth-venture creations (like AWEC, BHWE, HWN500, and AWESCO). AWEIA was the first, and is still the only cooperative AWE organization, that truly has a global vision and scope. This means AWEIA supports all serious AWE players by shared professional best-practice principles, not the narrow financial interests of any single player or clique.

      Hence AWEIA's proper emphasis on inclusive AWE stakeholder population needs, emphasis on aviation safety; emphasis on free and open knowledge-sharing; emphasis on broad comparative AWE academic validation testing, integrated simulation, and matrix-scoring programs, with a level playing field across AWE concepts and venture teams; emphasis on the highest ethical standards of professional conduct; and so on.

      This is a call to keep AWEIA progressing on every front, in its second decade of development. This is your invitation to join, volunteer, and/or donate.


      On Sunday, February 14, 2016 9:24 AM, "dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
      This topic is about how to continue to progress AWEIA. Pierre, Rod, and Doug should take their non-AWEIA postings to another topic or someAWE.org moderation.

      Doug does not even mention AWEIA in his sad ramblings about smiling scientists  here, much less offer any constructive ideas. He is also factually incorrect (in fact many teams regularly operate the same prototypes to build flight hours, between due rounds of upgraded designs, and at an accelerating pace). His unique blindness to broad progress in AWE is its own curious topic, or should go into the off-topic folder. 

      Its not fair to burden the AWEIA topic with non-productive off-topic distraction.


      On Saturday, February 13, 2016 5:24 PM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
      Doug Selsam
      noted ::

      I do not necessarily see much if any progress.
      Sure, there are many times the number of smiling grad students, plenty of money being wasted without any real results, and a seemingly never-ending parade of kite-reeling efforts.  The problems I see are, after years and years of talk, NONE of these supposed systems is in regular operation.  

      The "Professor Crackpot Syndrome" remains in place.  Most efforts start out saying they can beat the cost of regular windfarms, and in the next breath, without missing a beat, they retreat to promising deployment on some remote island or other advisably inaccessible location, because "power there is so expensive".  Typical "Professor Crackpot" empty talk.  They never seem to explain why that same island or remote location would not simply put up a regular wind turbine or windfarm offering 4-cent/kWh electricity (or solar panels).  And they never explain why, if their system will be "cheaper than regular windfarms", do they even need to talk about such remote locations.  Let alone why anyone would think they should install a prototype system thousands of miles away where it would be nearly inaccessible and could only work out if it happens to be perfect, with no unforeseen problems, which is unlikely for any prototype.  Well, sometimes the good professor is immune from basic reasoning and common-sense.  That we already know.

      In essence, they cannot "pick a lane", even as a start.  It's a case of excuses rather than action, with the reasoning not adding up.  They don't realize it, but all the talk of remote locations and third-world deployment amounts to a mental shell-game of changing the subject just when the real comparative economics would become apparent, to buy a little more time, obfuscating the facts that they have no working system that could even run for more than a day or two, that would be destroyed by a strong wind, and that their concepts could only produce systems so expensive as to be uncompetitive even if they COULD run on a regular basis.  

      This syndrome has been in place in the world of wind energy forever, and the story never changes, only the people involved and the specific inadvisable wannabe technologies promoted.  Same "Professor Crackpot Syndrome", same type of talk, same (lack of) reasoning, same empty claims and empty promises, different day.

      The two most popular and well-publicized U.S. efforts had planned to power high-electricity-cost areas in the 56th and 57th states, respectively, https://www.youtube.com/watch? v=EpGH02DtIws and, as easily predicted, both failed to materialize, offering no explanation.  These projects have already "quietly gone away" which is how Professor Crackpot's wind turbines inevitably culminate their flash-in-the-pan, press-release-as-science existence.  Think "whale-bumps"...

      If kite-reeling doesn't work out as planned, it seems we are almost nowhere.  I can't prove on paper that kite-reeling will not pan out, and I would be happy to see it succeed, but the fact that there is still no kite-reeling system in regular operation, at any scale, by any team, at any location, anywhere in the world, does not seem like an indication of a successful approach.  Seems like it could work out, in spite of my skeptical observations, given the vast amount of power available, but, so far, it just isn't. 

      This is fine with me, and should be fine with most people reading this, as the field remains perpetually "wide open" with pretty much zero competition for anyone who can get a realistic system running reliably!

      So, call it one more case of "Bad News is Good News"!
      It would be good news if a truly workable AWE system emerged, but it is also great news if it remains as a perpetually open goal to be conquered!  If someone ever cracked the code, we'd all have to find something else to think about.  So, be glad.
      :)))
      ~ Doug Selsam
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19711 From: dave santos Date: 2/14/2016
      Subject: Ragnarok 2016 Shaping Up
      Kite energy is now routine across many outdoor traction sports that only a short time ago were fossil-fuel driven by water-ski boats, ski-lifts, snowmobiles, etc.. Heads-Up NASCAR! The instant-legend kite-race, Ragnorak is a 100km spectacle in Arctic conditions; coming up next month, already fully-booked by wild flash-mob of snow-kite freaks. AWE Free-Pass- Forget Red Bull's silly numeric limit and fly this race for the hell of it. If Norway is not big enough, Nebraska is waiting-
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19712 From: dave santos Date: 2/15/2016
      Subject: AWE developmental timeline updated
      The passing years are revealing just how well milestone predictions of the leading players are panning out, by natural engineering dynamics.

      A tiny minority thinks AWE probably cannot succeed, ever. An awkward social problem for these folks is presenting a careful engineering case instead of lapsing to extreme crankiness. MikeB was only shut down as the world's leading AWE pessimist by his IBM employer, but not because of his primitive aerospace reasoning in AWE (as exposed by Mark Moore, NASA LaRC), but because he publicly abused NIMBY HAWT opponents to windfarms in crude mocking attacks. That he was also prone to simplistic trashing of AWE R&D did not figure in the controversy.

      Then there is a considerable number of over-optimistic AWE developers who make foolish early-to-market predictions. Unexpected engineering delay is in fact common in most emerging engineering fields, where milestones only happen at their own logical pace. There is nothing odd about a scattered distribution of predictions by sincere engineers. The over-optimistic tend to be younger and less-experienced, and missing youthful milestones is ideal training for becoming older and wiser.

      Between the two extremes of predictive folly is a sweet-spot of rational judgement based on critical factors. For example, AWE cannot possibly advance to mainstream status faster than aviation regulatory systems permit. Perfecting and validating novel aviation safety takes due care and time (a decade or two typical). This puts a firm lower boundary on how fast large-scale AWE can develop. Taking the FAA's official entry into AWE in 2012, and its mandate to accelerate AWES validation without cutting corners, we can postulate 2022 as about the earliest AWE could be in regular operation at utility scale.

      For an outer AWE R&D time-limit, there are close historical models that offer a rough speed-limit. For example, it took a century from the time Cayley worked out the basic Principles of Flight to the time the Wright Brothers had a working airplane. Allowing that technical progress today is faster, due to more brains better informed, and connected by the Net; and assigning to Payne in AWE the Cayley milestone role, we can suppose major AWE deployment will happen well before 2075. If we suppose a 2x rate of accelerated progress, we get 2025 as a plausible early date for possible success. Worst case is closer to 2075, near the unadjusted pace.

      What seems certain to me is that we are living in a wonderful time-window for lucky aero-engineers to create and refine historic AWE solutions. Expect both overly-pessimistic and overly-optimistic AWE commentators to be proven wrong. There simply are no insurmountable engineering barriers, just normal challenges such as have been solved before. Expect major AWE advances to incubate hidden from immediate public notice, to then erupt in media-bursts; just like the Wrights belatedly emerged as historic face of a long quest by many fine inventors who never doubted eventual success.
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19713 From: dave santos Date: 2/15/2016
      Subject: kPower Multi-Channel Kite-Engine in Bench-Testing
      Attachments :
        A long period of scale-model aircraft experimentation preceded the development of full-scale aviation. Similarly, in AWE, many experiments at toy-scale are advancing domain knowledge and capability. Thus kPower's new four-channel kite engine only rates about 1kW of output, but is instead intended to first model functions of far larger future AWES plants of the future, where the largest generator unit far out-scales any single kite unit, so multiple kite units must work together to match power ratings and load fluctuations.

        All four kite-engine PTO channels are now working, along with the manual channel-select function. Preliminary multi-channel pumping bench test confirms smoothed aggregated power. A fifth-channel is optional via the flywheel free=wheel ratchet. Field operations require a prepared anchor-field to support multiple kites operating in pumping mode. This multi-channel kite-engine is planned as a featured demo at WSIKF2016, Stay tuned...

        Photo below from last week, as final details came together. A tablet device and circuitry for sensor data collection will be located on the control shelving in front of the channel-selection levers-

        lucy.jpg


        		   @@attachment@@
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19714 From: dave santos Date: 2/16/2016
        Subject: Cheap Giant de Prony Brake for large-scale multi-traction-kite AWES
         A simple drag-load pulled along the ground, along with a time-base, amounts to a deProny Brake instrument able to measure many MW. A gang-line traction cable pulled by multiple Ship-kites can drag a massive drag-load at utility-scale power levels. Power developed by ground friction is precisely calculated simply from measured cable-tension and load-velocity. 

        A simple cheap concept demonstration of measurable power, based on ship kites that KiteShip and SkySails already possess, would show the world early traction-kite power generation at the multi-MW level, and beyond, of the largest conventional wind turbines. It would then be a fairly routine mega-scale mechanical-engineering project to replace the experimental drag-load with a real generator-load, including converting legacy power plants to kite hybrids.

        Open-AWE_IP-Cloud

        -----------------
        “As a little tiny boy, I learnt that my paper kite would draw along a stone on the ground, tied to the end of its string... I wondered and grew ambitious”
        George Pocock 1827
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19715 From: dave santos Date: 2/16/2016
        Subject: Re: Cheap Giant de Prony Brake for large-scale multi-traction-kite A
        COTS ~10MW sledge tech, but its easy to DIY by simply locking the treads on a tracked-vehicle; watch-out diesel tractor pullers, a multi-kite may soon beat your best-



        ganged engines for the "world's most powerful motorsport"-




        On Tuesday, February 16, 2016 12:06 PM, "dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
         A simple drag-load pulled along the ground, along with a time-base, amounts to a deProny Brake instrument able to measure many MW. A gang-line traction cable pulled by multiple Ship-kites can drag a massive drag-load at utility-scale power levels. Power developed by ground friction is precisely calculated simply from measured cable-tension and load-velocity. 

        A simple cheap concept demonstration of measurable power, based on ship kites that KiteShip and SkySails already possess, would show the world early traction-kite power generation at the multi-MW level, and beyond, of the largest conventional wind turbines. It would then be a fairly routine mega-scale mechanical-engineering project to replace the experimental drag-load with a real generator-load, including converting legacy power plants to kite hybrids.

        Open-AWE_IP-Cloud

        -----------------
        “As a little tiny boy, I learnt that my paper kite would draw along a stone on the ground, tied to the end of its string... I wondered and grew ambitious”
        George Pocock 1827
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19716 From: dave santos Date: 2/16/2016
        Subject: Multi-Engine Transmission "Cross-Box" suited for 10MW Multi-Channel
        ~10MW-capable COTS tech developed in sport tractor-pulling to serve the same kinetic mixing function as kPower's 4-channel kite-engine prototype-
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19717 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/17/2016
        Subject: Satellite Launch Kite Question

        Satellite Launch Kite Question
        Rod Read
        Satellite Launch Kite Question
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19718 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/17/2016
        Subject: Re: Cheap Giant de Prony Brake for large-scale multi-traction-kite A
        wiki: "The sled is known as a weight transfer sled. This means that as it is pulled down the track, the weight is transferred (linked with gears to the sled’s wheels) from over the rear axles and towards the front of the sled. In front of the rear wheels, there is a "pan". This is essentially a metal plate and as the weight moves over this the resistance builds. The further the tractor pulls the sled, the more difficult it gets.
        The most powerful tractors, such as those in the 4.5 modified class in Europe, can produce over 10,000 horsepower."
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19719 From: dave santos Date: 2/17/2016
        Subject: Re: Satellite Launch Kite Question
        The answer was yes, kites can launch satellites, during discussion of this topic years ago.

        Rod's scheme does not show a solution for aiming a satellite properly unless the wind happens to be the right direction.


        On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 10:33 AM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  

        Satellite Launch Kite Question
        Rod Read
        Satellite Launch Kite Question
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19720 From: dave santos Date: 2/17/2016
        Subject: Re: Cheap Giant de Prony Brake for large-scale multi-traction-kite A
        A weight-transfer sled makes an even better test instrument, since it varies load dynamically. It would generate videogrammetric data across a load-spectrum, to quickly find optimal load ratings empirically, at a given windspeed.
        ---------------

        To add to the 10MW COTS crossbox topic, note that a diesel engine can occupy a crossbox drive channel to power the hybrid plant by diesel when the wind is not blowing, while the kite channels support a jerkline or rope-loop network to surrounding kite fields. Funny how Tractor-Pulling, surely the most declasse branch of Gran Prix racing, offers unique prior art to instruct AWE R&D. 


        On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 11:34 AM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
        wiki: "The sled is known as a weight transfer sled. This means that as it is pulled down the track, the weight is transferred (linked with gears to the sled’s wheels) from over the rear axles and towards the front of the sled. In front of the rear wheels, there is a "pan". This is essentially a metal plate and as the weight moves over this the resistance builds. The further the tractor pulls the sled, the more difficult it gets.
        The most powerful tractors, such as those in the 4.5 modified class in Europe, can produce over 10,000 horsepower."
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19721 From: dave santos Date: 2/17/2016
        Subject: another simple dynamically-stable pumping-kite mode
        A few weeks ago, the topic came up of passive "auto-zenith" or "parking" of a power kite by fixing its bar immobile crosswind. Flying a small NPW on a kite bar in brisk wind today revealed that translating the bar crosswind to-and-fro, without rotation, caused the kite to tack passively, pumping cross-wind with high stability (not failing once). Indefinitely long crosswind tacks can mix in bar-rotation as needed. Anyone with a power-kite on a bar should be able to easily replicate these observations.

        This simple new method seems suited to anchoring a large SS power kites along a crosswind cableway that pump powerfully with dynamic-stability. There are all sorts of ways to rig and tap this limit-cycle oscillation, including multi-kites pumping in synchrony. Should even higher stability be wanted, the nose of the power-kite can swing under pilot-kite lift (which would contribute an additional or alternative tacking actuation force). A self-relaunching pilot-kite can sequentially relaunch the power-kite element, for an end-to-end all-modes AWES concept.

        Open-AWE_IP-Cloud
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19722 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/18/2016
        Subject: Cyclic Pulling Locally or Globally
        Cyclic Pulling
        ... locally or globally

        Use AWES to generate electricity while also pulling goods and people from east to west (or in niche regions where wind changes permit cyclic travel).

        The goods and people get moved and released at points along the way as wanted. If world-around winds are mined, then their would not be any additional cost to return AWES rig. Just keep moving around the Earth in one direction. 

        When will we see Earth-Surround AWES?

        This matter was earlier described and set into public domain. David Lang had mentioned the challenge of finding and using enough wind to keep the systems going eastward. 

        As we have already: In a wind, have crosswind travel of cabled or railed or watered hulled or carted, etc. goods and people while mining the pull for generating electricity. Back-and-forth traverse to wind. Perhaps pole-to-pole on Earth. 

        Network Earth with AWES. 
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19723 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/18/2016
        Subject: Re: Cyclic Pulling Locally or Globally

        West coast USA:  Mexico to Canada.

        Loading points: San Diego, Los Angeles, Santa Barbara, San Francisco, Oregon, Washington State.

        Keeping flying AWES back and forth from Mexico to Canada and return.  Move people and goods while generating electricity. Offload charged batteries or filled hydrogen tanks (or other chemicals made along the way with the mined energy).  Ever kite sailing with onboard PTO schemes along the coast. Go, go, go. Vacationers ride. Shuttle boats could offload people and goods all along the route; release pods; let shuttles pick up the pods while the main AWES continues on its way.  
        Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19724 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2016
        Subject: Re: Cyclic Pulling Locally or Globally
        We know this avant-garde problem-space a lot better after years of study, so our quiver of solutions is far larger. For example, we know global wind are always blowing on average, with fairly regular gaps between pay-winds, so land- and aero-towing capabilities can in principle keep low-wind sections of planetary-scale ropeways working, without interruption. This adjunct towing capability would of course be powered by wind, and anywhere the transport cableway flies is also readily served with energy.

        We even begin to envision a sort of grand engineered analog of biological tissue in the sk, where large expanses of fixed polymer lattices are traversed and supported by circulatory vessels of kinetic-energy ropeways. There is a Brave New World awaiting overhead for those who master the broad engineering potential of rag, string, and wind.


        On Thursday, February 18, 2016 9:07 AM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
        West coast USA:  Mexico to Canada.
        Loading points: San Diego, Los Angeles, Santa Barbara, San Francisco, Oregon, Washington State.
        Keeping flying AWES back and forth from Mexico to Canada and return.  Move people and goods while generating electricity. Offload charged batteries or filled hydrogen tanks (or other chemicals made along the way with the mined energy).  Ever kite sailing with onboard PTO schemes along the coast. Go, go, go. Vacationers ride. Shuttle boats could offload people and goods all along the route; release pods; let shuttles pick up the pods while the main AWES continues on its way.