Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                          AWES 19366 to 19415 Page 281 of 440.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19366 From: dave santos Date: 11/13/2015
Subject: Aircraft Carrier Anchoring Chain as Megascale Tensile Kinetic Energy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19367 From: dave santos Date: 11/14/2015
Subject: "The Makani energy kite system"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19368 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/14/2015
Subject: Re: Lothar Louis Pohl

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19369 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/14/2015
Subject: CN102003343B

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19370 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 11/15/2015
Subject: Re: "The Makani energy kite system"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19371 From: dave santos Date: 11/15/2015
Subject: Re: "The Makani energy kite system"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19372 From: dave santos Date: 11/15/2015
Subject: More water lifting tests and concepts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19373 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 11/16/2015
Subject: AWEIA and GOOGLE-MAKANI

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19374 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 11/16/2015
Subject: Re: More water lifting tests and concepts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19375 From: dave santos Date: 11/16/2015
Subject: Re: AWEIA and GOOGLE-MAKANI

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19376 From: dave santos Date: 11/16/2015
Subject: Re: More water lifting tests and concepts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19377 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 11/18/2015
Subject: Fw: LAGI Wins the J.M.K. Innovation Prize

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19378 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 11/18/2015
Subject: Re: AWEIA and GOOGLE-MAKANI

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19379 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/18/2015
Subject: Re: Kiting in Hurricanes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19380 From: dave santos Date: 11/18/2015
Subject: Re: AWEIA and GOOGLE-MAKANI

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19381 From: dave santos Date: 11/18/2015
Subject: Re: Fw: LAGI Wins the J.M.K. Innovation Prize

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19382 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/18/2015
Subject: Tentsile

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19383 From: dave santos Date: 11/18/2015
Subject: COTS Megascale Wire Rope

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19384 From: dave santos Date: 11/18/2015
Subject: Re: Tentsile

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19385 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/18/2015
Subject: Re: Inhabited kite systems

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19386 From: dave santos Date: 11/18/2015
Subject: Re: Inhabited kite systems

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19387 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 11/18/2015
Subject: Re: AWEIA and GOOGLE-MAKANI

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19388 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 11/18/2015
Subject: Re: Fw: LAGI Wins the J.M.K. Innovation Prize

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19389 From: dave santos Date: 11/19/2015
Subject: Re: Fw: LAGI Wins the J.M.K. Innovation Prize

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19390 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 11/20/2015
Subject: Re: Fw: LAGI Wins the J.M.K. Innovation Prize

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19391 From: dave santos Date: 11/20/2015
Subject: "Liquid Piston" Engines and Wind

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19392 From: dave santos Date: 11/20/2015
Subject: "Jig-Back" Ropeway Methods for AWES

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19393 From: dave santos Date: 11/23/2015
Subject: Online Aeroelasticity Course by Prof. C. Venkatesan

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19394 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/24/2015
Subject: Visit from Selsam on two topics

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19395 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/24/2015
Subject: Re: Inside Minesto

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19396 From: dave santos Date: 11/24/2015
Subject: Minesto "Deep-Green" News

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19397 From: dave santos Date: 11/24/2015
Subject: Re: Visit from Selsam on two topics

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19398 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/24/2015
Subject: Re: Minesto "Deep-Green" News

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19399 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/25/2015
Subject: Re: Minesto "Deep-Green" News

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19400 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/25/2015
Subject: Re: Visit from Selsam on two topics

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19401 From: dave santos Date: 11/26/2015
Subject: Re: Visit from Selsam on two topics

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19402 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/27/2015
Subject: Thomas J. Nugent is being referenced in some energy-kite patents

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19403 From: dave santos Date: 11/27/2015
Subject: Re: Thomas J. Nugent is being referenced in some energy-kite patents

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19404 From: dave santos Date: 11/27/2015
Subject: Liability of a Breakaway Kite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19405 From: dave santos Date: 11/27/2015
Subject: Latest "Artificial Rain" demo by means of kites (kPower Ilwaco)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19406 From: dave santos Date: 11/27/2015
Subject: Mr. Kite, Pop-Culture Icon

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19407 From: dave santos Date: 11/27/2015
Subject: Latest "Artificial Rain" demo by means of kites (kPower Ilwaco)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19408 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/27/2015
Subject: Re: Visit from Selsam on two topics

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19409 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/27/2015
Subject: Re: Latest "Artificial Rain" demo by means of kites (kPower Ilwaco)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19410 From: dave santos Date: 11/28/2015
Subject: Re: Visit from Selsam on two topics

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19411 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/28/2015
Subject: Re: Visit from Selsam on two topics

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19412 From: dave santos Date: 11/29/2015
Subject: Re: Visit from Selsam on two topics

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19413 From: dave santos Date: 11/29/2015
Subject: The overlooked AWES solution?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19414 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/30/2015
Subject: Re: Visit from Selsam on two topics

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19415 From: dave santos Date: 12/1/2015
Subject: Re: Visit from Selsam on two topics




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19366 From: dave santos Date: 11/13/2015
Subject: Aircraft Carrier Anchoring Chain as Megascale Tensile Kinetic Energy
Steel chain is considered mainly for AWES surface use, for anchoring and as a final transfer medium of airborne-polymer-aggregated kite power to GW-scale generators. Chain is longer lasting and keys solidly into chainwheel gearing, compared to steel rope, which is better for longer runs in less abused roles. Maybe giant toothed-belts will emerge and/or steel chains will someday fly (for gravitational and inertial potential energy, mass pays). The standard drive chain today would be like giant bicycle chain, but this Nimitz-class anchor chain similarity case gives an idea of the velocities and forces envisioned for utility-scale AWES. This sort of hardware ends up on the salvage market near raw metal prices, and worn elements can serve long enough for AWES proof-of-concept at full scale-

Image result for nimitz anchor chain



Image result for industrial chain drive
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19367 From: dave santos Date: 11/14/2015
Subject: "The Makani energy kite system"
Longtime readers will recall the debates years ago over what to call AWE, with Open-AWE favoring Wayne German's "Kite Energy", and all sorts of "HAWP", "HAWE", etc. contenders in the venture start-up space. "AWE" as such first emerged on the early Forum and won out as all sides adopted it (the FAA officially designated our platforms as "AWES", since "AWE" was already a formally designated aviation acronym). Early on, Joe Faust adopted "Energy Kite" for the airborne wing part, and stuck to it. "Energy Kite" is currently under attack by IP Net pirates seeking to monetize it as a TM, and JohnO is defending it on behalf of AWEIA (news soon). The fuss caused me to notice who else now exploits "Energy Kite" commercially, as a standard term-of-art? Makani Power.

It took almost ten years for Makani to finally embrace JoeF's usage of "Energy Kite" as a marketing mantra, after initially avoiding "kite" (aka the "K-word") as unsuitable in its promotional hype; attempting instead to establish "AWT" (Airborne Wind Turbine, which failed to catch-on, despite overwhelming Google-driven public exposure). Perhaps the "Energy Kite" term originated in some old patent or paper that Joe can point it out, but clearly he made it the standard term in AWE (compare with Ampyx's "Power Plane TM") by his legendary energykitesystems.net domain and content. 

Example- Four instances of "Energy Kite" on one just one Makani webpage-


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19368 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/14/2015
Subject: Re: Lothar Louis Pohl
Patent DE3729087A1 - Balloon wind power station

 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19369 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/14/2015
Subject: CN102003343B

Patent CN102003343B - High altitude wind farm system and implementation method thereof


  @@attachment@@
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19370 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 11/15/2015
Subject: Re: "The Makani energy kite system"
Rather sad that Makani (with the deep pockets of Google) chose to compete rather than cooperate with Open AWE. Let's hope that there will yet be a rethink in the interest of a world so much in need of this new field. I just imagine where we could be today had Joby/Makani had cooperated with KiteLab Group way back in 2009. Be rest assured the KIS Open AWE groups may yet emerge the true 'David' against their 'Goliath' in the ongoing contest. When that happens, it can only deepen the financial loss that though affordable to the 'High Tech' investors is wiser avoided. The time for a rethink is NOW.
JohnO
Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association (AWEIA International)

John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
Managing Consultant & CEO
Hardensoft International Limited
<Technologies  
Longtime readers will recall the debates years ago over what to call AWE, with Open-AWE favoring Wayne German's "Kite Energy", and all sorts of "HAWP", "HAWE", etc. contenders in the venture start-up space. "AWE" as such first emerged on the early Forum and won out as all sides adopted it (the FAA officially designated our platforms as "AWES", since "AWE" was already a formally designated aviation acronym). Early on, Joe Faust adopted "Energy Kite" for the airborne wing part, and stuck to it. "Energy Kite" is currently under attack by IP Net pirates seeking to monetize it as a TM, and JohnO is defending it on behalf of AWEIA (news soon). The fuss caused me to notice who else now exploits "Energy Kite" commercially, as a standard term-of-art? Makani Power.

It took almost ten years for Makani to finally embrace JoeF's usage of "Energy Kite" as a marketing mantra, after initially avoiding "kite" (aka the "K-word") as unsuitable in its promotional hype; attempting instead to establish "AWT" (Airborne Wind Turbine, which failed to catch-on, despite overwhelming Google-driven public exposure). Perhaps the "Energy Kite" term originated in some old patent or paper that Joe can point it out, but clearly he made it the standard term in AWE (compare with Ampyx's "Power Plane TM") by his legendary energykitesystems.net domain and content. 

Example- Four instances of "Energy Kite" on one just one Makani webpage-




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19371 From: dave santos Date: 11/15/2015
Subject: Re: "The Makani energy kite system"
If the M600 roundly fails to meet design requirements, that's a fresh cue for Open-AWE to assert itself directly to Google leadership, via the journalistic fallout. Perhaps Makani staff never has forwarded years of Open-AWE concerns up the Google management chain, or Google simply needs dramatic failure to open up to broader AWE thinking.

Google itself was built on Open-Linux servers. Makani's insider negligence ensured that Open-AWE developed "lean and mean", and ready to disrupt Makani itself. Open-AWE always presumed boot-strapping from early-to-market revenue as the default most-competitive approach, in the likely case serious venture capital did not materialize. 

We have yet to see the global cooperative "Manhattan Project" many have called for, to directly fly-off competing AWES concepts. As consolation, we have a fine array of independent AWES projects to compare analytically, with enough public data leaks for experts to draw confident conjectures. 

In summary, the "Energy Kite" that JoeF named is evolving at RAD pace, regardless of shortcomings by any party. "Makani's Energy Kite" may yet derive from Open-AWE ideas, and AWEIA may be  the key player to make that transition.





On Sunday, November 15, 2015 7:27 AM, "Hardensoft International Limited hardensoftintl@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Rather sad that Makani (with the deep pockets of Google) chose to compete rather than cooperate with Open AWE. Let's hope that there will yet be a rethink in the interest of a world so much in need of this new field. I just imagine where we could be today had Joby/Makani had cooperated with KiteLab Group way back in 2009. Be rest assured the KIS Open AWE groups may yet emerge the true 'David' against their 'Goliath' in the ongoing contest. When that happens, it can only deepen the financial loss that though affordable to the 'High Tech' investors is wiser avoided. The time for a rethink is NOW.
JohnO
Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association (AWEIA International)

John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
Managing Consultant & CEO
Hardensoft International Limited
<Technologies  
Longtime readers will recall the debates years ago over what to call AWE, with Open-AWE favoring Wayne German's "Kite Energy", and all sorts of "HAWP", "HAWE", etc. contenders in the venture start-up space. "AWE" as such first emerged on the early Forum and won out as all sides adopted it (the FAA officially designated our platforms as "AWES", since "AWE" was already a formally designated aviation acronym). Early on, Joe Faust adopted "Energy Kite" for the airborne wing part, and stuck to it. "Energy Kite" is currently under attack by IP Net pirates seeking to monetize it as a TM, and JohnO is defending it on behalf of AWEIA (news soon). The fuss caused me to notice who else now exploits "Energy Kite" commercially, as a standard term-of-art? Makani Power.

It took almost ten years for Makani to finally embrace JoeF's usage of "Energy Kite" as a marketing mantra, after initially avoiding "kite" (aka the "K-word") as unsuitable in its promotional hype; attempting instead to establish "AWT" (Airborne Wind Turbine, which failed to catch-on, despite overwhelming Google-driven public exposure). Perhaps the "Energy Kite" term originated in some old patent or paper that Joe can point it out, but clearly he made it the standard term in AWE (compare with Ampyx's "Power Plane TM") by his legendary energykitesystems.net domain and content. 

Example- Four instances of "Energy Kite" on one just one Makani webpage-






Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19372 From: dave santos Date: 11/15/2015
Subject: More water lifting tests and concepts
Around 2008, KiteLab Ilwaco first explored fire-fighting and irrigation by means of kites. It was shown easy to lift a container of water and pour it on target. A pilot kite lifted a full water pitcher, and side tag-lines positioned and tipped the pitcher over the target. Today kPower Ilwaco continued the experiments, but with a 2m2 Pansh parafoil lifting a plastic bucket via a PTO rig. This expanded capabilities over the first experiments by integrating the modes of filling of the container (from a puddle), moving it to the target, and back; in repeated cycles. A friend took pictures, and better practiced video sessions will soon follow.

A new solution pending in this concept space is to lift huge water bags (creating a "self-erecting watertower", to paraphrase Payne). Such a reservoir aloft would offset need for conventional high-pressure pumps and hoses. A cheap light low-pressure hose would suffice to convey the water down and across country many kilometers. In a pinch, such rigs might operate towed in calm, but the correlation of strong wind to higher wildfire risk, and naturally flexible timing of wind with crop irrigation, are nicely compatible to a wind kite solution.

Further kPower testing along these lines is planned at the FAA-designated Warm Springs UAS range, where wildfires are common. A real-life fire-fighting trial might happen next fire season, if incremental development meanwhile goes well.

Open-AWE_IP-Cloud


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19373 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 11/16/2015
Subject: AWEIA and GOOGLE-MAKANI
 Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association (AWEIA International) remains an open-to-all AWE or KiteEnergy players - professionals, amateurs or plain consumers. MAKANI and then JOBY now merged with MAKANI were both aware and indeed were expected as co-founding members. Rather than support the open association, they went ahead to found the 'pay-to-play' Consortium and registered it as an industry association - (money speaks). DaveS in particular has consistently since objected to a formal registration of AWEIA so as to avoid 'unnecessary duplications' in the hope that both AWEC and AWEIA may yet merge for the 'one global AWE voice'. Unfortunately, DaveS seems to have underestimated the resolve of the other parties to compete rather than cooperate even when the need for cooperation and the advantages of such cooperation are so glaring to the discerning. Google may be slow in catching up with this truth but I expect that sooner than later, if not through Makani, then surely by some other means, the cooperative and good-will spirit of Google will inform them that Open AWE waits with extended hands of brotherhood.
Further lifts.
JohnO
AWEIA International
John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
Managing Consultant & CEO
Hardensoft International Limited
<Technologies  
If the M600 roundly fails to meet design requirements, that's a fresh cue for Open-AWE to assert itself directly to Google leadership, via the journalistic fallout. Perhaps Makani staff never has forwarded years of Open-AWE concerns up the Google management chain, or Google simply needs dramatic failure to open up to broader AWE thinking.

Google itself was built on Open-Linux servers. Makani's insider negligence ensured that Open-AWE developed "lean and mean", and ready to disrupt Makani itself. Open-AWE always presumed boot-strapping from early-to-market revenue as the default most-competitive approach, in the likely case serious venture capital did not materialize. 

We have yet to see the global cooperative "Manhattan Project" many have called for, to directly fly-off competing AWES concepts. As consolation, we have a fine array of independent AWES projects to compare analytically, with enough public data leaks for experts to draw confident conjectures. 

In summary, the "Energy Kite" that JoeF named is evolving at RAD pace, regardless of shortcomings by any party. "Makani's Energy Kite" may yet derive from Open-AWE ideas, and AWEIA may be  the key player to make that transition.





On Sunday, November 15, 2015 7:27 AM, "Hardensoft International Limited hardensoftintl@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Rather sad that Makani (with the deep pockets of Google) chose to compete rather than cooperate with Open AWE. Let's hope that there will yet be a rethink in the interest of a world so much in need of this new field. I just imagine where we could be today had Joby/Makani had cooperated with KiteLab Group way back in 2009. Be rest assured the KIS Open AWE groups may yet emerge the true 'David' against their 'Goliath' in the ongoing contest. When that happens, it can only deepen the financial loss that though affordable to the 'High Tech' investors is wiser avoided. The time for a rethink is NOW.
JohnO
Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association (AWEIA International)

John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
Managing Consultant & CEO
Hardensoft International Limited
<Technologies  
Longtime readers will recall the debates years ago over what to call AWE, with Open-AWE favoring Wayne German's "Kite Energy", and all sorts of "HAWP", "HAWE", etc. contenders in the venture start-up space. "AWE" as such first emerged on the early Forum and won out as all sides adopted it (the FAA officially designated our platforms as "AWES", since "AWE" was already a formally designated aviation acronym). Early on, Joe Faust adopted "Energy Kite" for the airborne wing part, and stuck to it. "Energy Kite" is currently under attack by IP Net pirates seeking to monetize it as a TM, and JohnO is defending it on behalf of AWEIA (news soon). The fuss caused me to notice who else now exploits "Energy Kite" commercially, as a standard term-of-art? Makani Power.

It took almost ten years for Makani to finally embrace JoeF's usage of "Energy Kite" as a marketing mantra, after initially avoiding "kite" (aka the "K-word") as unsuitable in its promotional hype; attempting instead to establish "AWT" (Airborne Wind Turbine, which failed to catch-on, despite overwhelming Google-driven public exposure). Perhaps the "Energy Kite" term originated in some old patent or paper that Joe can point it out, but clearly he made it the standard term in AWE (compare with Ampyx's "Power Plane TM") by his legendary energykitesystems.net domain and content. 

Example- Four instances of "Energy Kite" on one just one Makani webpage-








Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19374 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 11/16/2015
Subject: Re: More water lifting tests and concepts
Highrise buildings right by the water fronts had gone up in flames while local fire-fighters looked on helplessly complaining 'there is no water'. Also many farmlands only metres away from streams and rivers but cannot afford expensive irrigation systems. We sure need this solution fast. 
Further lifts.
JohnO
John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
Managing Consultant & CEO
Hardensoft International Limited
<Technologies  
Around 2008, KiteLab Ilwaco first explored fire-fighting and irrigation by means of kites. It was shown easy to lift a container of water and pour it on target. A pilot kite lifted a full water pitcher, and side tag-lines positioned and tipped the pitcher over the target. Today kPower Ilwaco continued the experiments, but with a 2m2 Pansh parafoil lifting a plastic bucket via a PTO rig. This expanded capabilities over the first experiments by integrating the modes of filling of the container (from a puddle), moving it to the target, and back; in repeated cycles. A friend took pictures, and better practiced video sessions will soon follow.

A new solution pending in this concept space is to lift huge water bags (creating a "self-erecting watertower", to paraphrase Payne). Such a reservoir aloft would offset need for conventional high-pressure pumps and hoses. A cheap light low-pressure hose would suffice to convey the water down and across country many kilometers. In a pinch, such rigs might operate towed in calm, but the correlation of strong wind to higher wildfire risk, and naturally flexible timing of wind with crop irrigation, are nicely compatible to a wind kite solution.

Further kPower testing along these lines is planned at the FAA-designated Warm Springs UAS range, where wildfires are common. A real-life fire-fighting trial might happen next fire season, if incremental development meanwhile goes well.

Open-AWE_IP-Cloud




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19375 From: dave santos Date: 11/16/2015
Subject: Re: AWEIA and GOOGLE-MAKANI
Thanks JohnO, I fully agree with the picture you paint, with a distinction to offer. There are two sorts of competitive resolve in play in AWE; an engineering race for the best technical solutions, and a banal social and capital competition. I have in fact overestimated the willingness of many parties to compete in integrated engineering fly-offs, and scoring-matrices, and simulations, and underestimated the now-evident social and capital competition.

I recall Peter Lynn laughing in 2007 when I estimated perhaps 100 million had been invested in modern technical kite research, but Peter, as the world's top expert, knew of many times more investment washing about. Part was private ventures, but most by far was military investment. KiteShip counted on kite-related military contracts to carry the company while awaiting a ship-kite market, which did not materialize in time. Today its perhaps still an underestimate that close to a billion has been spent. We count about half of that in the public record, and there are shocking rumored amounts for big players like Google and SABIC.

Why has the world seen so little technical result for so much money? The military mission and procurement process for kite systems (mostly parafoil airdrop decellerators) makes them unsuited for wider commercial markets. Government spending is very inefficient, and the salaried workforce works without much passion. Seeking to be first-to-market, AWE capital ventures tend to make a premature architectural down-select, and lose. The stealth model of knowledge prevents the public from learning from the mistakes. Public mistakes, like industrial R&D in Hawaii, are even somehow admired.

In the tiny little social world of specialized AWES R&D, where most of us know each other, at least by repute, we might have worked together far better if we had mostly remained at a modest steady level of capitalization. There was a strong randomness to what AWE players and ideas got funded, and what/who did not. Its sad so many past players "took the money and ran", rather than delivering valid solutions. As eager as ever, I look forward to the actual engineering competition finally coming to the fore, with a strong cooperative ethos to play fair, without underestimating the resolve required of all those who make that race.





On Monday, November 16, 2015 6:59 AM, "Hardensoft International Limited hardensoftintl@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
 Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association (AWEIA International) remains an open-to-all AWE or KiteEnergy players - professionals, amateurs or plain consumers. MAKANI and then JOBY now merged with MAKANI were both aware and indeed were expected as co-founding members. Rather than support the open association, they went ahead to found the 'pay-to-play' Consortium and registered it as an industry association - (money speaks). DaveS in particular has consistently since objected to a formal registration of AWEIA so as to avoid 'unnecessary duplications' in the hope that both AWEC and AWEIA may yet merge for the 'one global AWE voice'. Unfortunately, DaveS seems to have underestimated the resolve of the other parties to compete rather than cooperate even when the need for cooperation and the advantages of such cooperation are so glaring to the discerning. Google may be slow in catching up with this truth but I expect that sooner than later, if not through Makani, then surely by some other means, the cooperative and good-will spirit of Google will inform them that Open AWE waits with extended hands of brotherhood.
Further lifts.
JohnO
AWEIA International
John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
Managing Consultant & CEO
Hardensoft International Limited
<Technologies  
If the M600 roundly fails to meet design requirements, that's a fresh cue for Open-AWE to assert itself directly to Google leadership, via the journalistic fallout. Perhaps Makani staff never has forwarded years of Open-AWE concerns up the Google management chain, or Google simply needs dramatic failure to open up to broader AWE thinking.

Google itself was built on Open-Linux servers. Makani's insider negligence ensured that Open-AWE developed "lean and mean", and ready to disrupt Makani itself. Open-AWE always presumed boot-strapping from early-to-market revenue as the default most-competitive approach, in the likely case serious venture capital did not materialize. 

We have yet to see the global cooperative "Manhattan Project" many have called for, to directly fly-off competing AWES concepts. As consolation, we have a fine array of independent AWES projects to compare analytically, with enough public data leaks for experts to draw confident conjectures. 

In summary, the "Energy Kite" that JoeF named is evolving at RAD pace, regardless of shortcomings by any party. "Makani's Energy Kite" may yet derive from Open-AWE ideas, and AWEIA may be  the key player to make that transition.





On Sunday, November 15, 2015 7:27 AM, "Hardensoft International Limited hardensoftintl@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Rather sad that Makani (with the deep pockets of Google) chose to compete rather than cooperate with Open AWE. Let's hope that there will yet be a rethink in the interest of a world so much in need of this new field. I just imagine where we could be today had Joby/Makani had cooperated with KiteLab Group way back in 2009. Be rest assured the KIS Open AWE groups may yet emerge the true 'David' against their 'Goliath' in the ongoing contest. When that happens, it can only deepen the financial loss that though affordable to the 'High Tech' investors is wiser avoided. The time for a rethink is NOW.
JohnO
Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association (AWEIA International)

John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
Managing Consultant & CEO
Hardensoft International Limited
<Technologies  
Longtime readers will recall the debates years ago over what to call AWE, with Open-AWE favoring Wayne German's "Kite Energy", and all sorts of "HAWP", "HAWE", etc. contenders in the venture start-up space. "AWE" as such first emerged on the early Forum and won out as all sides adopted it (the FAA officially designated our platforms as "AWES", since "AWE" was already a formally designated aviation acronym). Early on, Joe Faust adopted "Energy Kite" for the airborne wing part, and stuck to it. "Energy Kite" is currently under attack by IP Net pirates seeking to monetize it as a TM, and JohnO is defending it on behalf of AWEIA (news soon). The fuss caused me to notice who else now exploits "Energy Kite" commercially, as a standard term-of-art? Makani Power.

It took almost ten years for Makani to finally embrace JoeF's usage of "Energy Kite" as a marketing mantra, after initially avoiding "kite" (aka the "K-word") as unsuitable in its promotional hype; attempting instead to establish "AWT" (Airborne Wind Turbine, which failed to catch-on, despite overwhelming Google-driven public exposure). Perhaps the "Energy Kite" term originated in some old patent or paper that Joe can point it out, but clearly he made it the standard term in AWE (compare with Ampyx's "Power Plane TM") by his legendary energykitesystems.net domain and content. 

Example- Four instances of "Energy Kite" on one just one Makani webpage-










Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19376 From: dave santos Date: 11/16/2015
Subject: Re: More water lifting tests and concepts
The app of fighting urban fire by kites leads to fertile new concept spaces. One could not solely depend on wind, of course, but a wind-based system could stand in reserve for its days. A giant towed kite can in principle drop water on a roof top, or offer emergency egress. However, if one already has a tower, a kite is less uniquely useful. The tower itself is already tall, able to support kite-like rigging operations. A simple steel- cable and pulley network anchored from the roof might best support tower-fire fighting, but thank the kite for inspiration.

There are more urban kite-lifting apps to discover. Imagine airborne water bags as both gravity potential-energy bulk-mass; and water/electrical supply, via down-tubes. The downtube at each surface-point could have a micro-hydroelectric outlet matching general electric and water demand. This would not be very practical to replace traditional city grids, but suggests a new sort of urban creeping-protoplasm made up of herds of mobile vehicles tethered to the sky. The sky would supply basic multi-services such as traction, water, electricity, aerial-transport, etc.. The classic SciFi city-in-the-sky seems most practical with a multi-tethered kite configuration as the lift basis.

Many such Aerotectural ideas have been posed before on the Forum, to duly update again. Bondestam flew architectural maquettes as kites in the '90's, and Harper flew a hamster in the '70's, and even a kite ant-farm with multi-life-support-services would be cool. One could easily demonstrate effective personal-scale versions of kite multi-service provision. Recalling Polynesians flew sea-sponges on kites into clouds for drinking-water.

Open-AWE_IP-Cloud



On Monday, November 16, 2015 7:13 AM, "Hardensoft International Limited hardensoftintl@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Highrise buildings right by the water fronts had gone up in flames while local fire-fighters looked on helplessly complaining 'there is no water'. Also many farmlands only metres away from streams and rivers but cannot afford expensive irrigation systems. We sure need this solution fast. 
Further lifts.
JohnO
John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
Managing Consultant & CEO
Hardensoft International Limited
<Technologies  
Around 2008, KiteLab Ilwaco first explored fire-fighting and irrigation by means of kites. It was shown easy to lift a container of water and pour it on target. A pilot kite lifted a full water pitcher, and side tag-lines positioned and tipped the pitcher over the target. Today kPower Ilwaco continued the experiments, but with a 2m2 Pansh parafoil lifting a plastic bucket via a PTO rig. This expanded capabilities over the first experiments by integrating the modes of filling of the container (from a puddle), moving it to the target, and back; in repeated cycles. A friend took pictures, and better practiced video sessions will soon follow.

A new solution pending in this concept space is to lift huge water bags (creating a "self-erecting watertower", to paraphrase Payne). Such a reservoir aloft would offset need for conventional high-pressure pumps and hoses. A cheap light low-pressure hose would suffice to convey the water down and across country many kilometers. In a pinch, such rigs might operate towed in calm, but the correlation of strong wind to higher wildfire risk, and naturally flexible timing of wind with crop irrigation, are nicely compatible to a wind kite solution.

Further kPower testing along these lines is planned at the FAA-designated Warm Springs UAS range, where wildfires are common. A real-life fire-fighting trial might happen next fire season, if incremental development meanwhile goes well.

Open-AWE_IP-Cloud






Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19377 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 11/18/2015
Subject: Fw: LAGI Wins the J.M.K. Innovation Prize
Congratulations, LAGI.
Attached is a LAGI 'KiteEnergy' image.
JohnO
President-protem, Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association (AWEIA International)
 
John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
Managing Consultant & CEO
Hardensoft International Limited
<Technologies
We're pleased to announce that the Land Art Generator Initiative has been named by the J.M. Kaplan Fund as one of ten inaugural winners of the J.M.K. Innovation Prize, a new initiative to support and raise the visibility of U.S.-based teams or individuals addressing our country's most pressing needs through social-sector innovation.
We'd like to extend our thanks to, and share this recognition with, the thousands of participants in LAGI design competitions, whose amazing innovations make LAGI possible. The above image is composed of thumbnails of the work that can be seen in the online LAGI portfolio. By presenting these inspiring images of what our energy landscapes can aspire to be, these teams are helping to make climate action something that can spark the imagination of the world.
The J.M.K. Innovation Prize will allow LAGI to expand consulting and project management work in cities around the world that are seeking creative ways of integrating sustainable infrastructures into regenerative planning and projects. Over the next few years, LAGI will be working closely with our design partners (past LAGI design competition participants) on the detailed design and construction of many regenerative public art installations at various scales and site contexts.
The J.M.K. Innovation Prize will also partially support the 2016 LAGI Design Competition for Southern California by providing the award funding. LAGI 2016 will re-imagine the coast of Santa Monica by inviting individuals and interdisciplinary teams to design a large-scale, site-specific work of public art that also serves as clean energy and/or drinking water infrastructure for the city.

the LAGI 2016 design site
We congratulate the J.M. Kaplan Fund on their development of the J.M.K. Innovation Prize and thank them for their generous support.
RECENT LAGI PRESS!
The Guardian
Public art projects that double as renewable energy sources

TakePart
Kids create street art that generates solar power

We Are Anonymous
Students Design Solar Artwork, Power Disadvantaged Neighborhood With Clean Energy
THE IMPORTANCE OF THE LAND ART GENERATOR INITIATIVE
As we continue to work together to design and implement a post-carbon world, the impact of sustainable infrastructures on the constructed environment is becoming an important focus of urban planning and placemaking.
At the same time, a culture war over land use has slowed the implementation of many proposed wind and solar installations. By engaging communities with an inspiring vision of our sustainable future and providing context-specific solutions for sensitive sites, we would like to help turn the tide of public discourse and bring about universal support for immediate investment in 100% renewable infrastructure.
We're helping to educate the next generation of artists, architects, engineers, city planners, landscape architects, designers, and scientists, who will find greater innovation through interdisciplinary collaboration and creativity.
If you appreciate the work that LAGI is doing to promote sustainable development and the arts—both in education and in the built environment—please consider a tax-deductible gift to help make LAGI 2016 and our educational content possible. Thank you!



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19378 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 11/18/2015
Subject: Re: AWEIA and GOOGLE-MAKANI
DaveS wrote: 'Why has the world seen so little technical result for so much money? '
Answer: Unhealthy rivalry in 'seeking to be first-to-market' leading to a premature architectural down-select, and loss.
How may we spread future investments to help fund other promising designs? I think the likes of Google can diversify their AWE investment rather than continuing to put all their precious 'eggs' in the single Makani 'basket'. Will Google consider supporting AWEIA member teams?
This is AWEIA's plea in the interest of all.
JohnO
AWEIA International
John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
Managing Consultant & CEO
Hardensoft International Limited
<Technologies  
Thanks JohnO, I fully agree with the picture you paint, with a distinction to offer. There are two sorts of competitive resolve in play in AWE; an engineering race for the best technical solutions, and a banal social and capital competition. I have in fact overestimated the willingness of many parties to compete in integrated engineering fly-offs, and scoring-matrices, and simulations, and underestimated the now-evident social and capital competition.

I recall Peter Lynn laughing in 2007 when I estimated perhaps 100 million had been invested in modern technical kite research, but Peter, as the world's top expert, knew of many times more investment washing about. Part was private ventures, but most by far was military investment. KiteShip counted on kite-related military contracts to carry the company while awaiting a ship-kite market, which did not materialize in time. Today its perhaps still an underestimate that close to a billion has been spent. We count about half of that in the public record, and there are shocking rumored amounts for big players like Google and SABIC.

Why has the world seen so little technical result for so much money? The military mission and procurement process for kite systems (mostly parafoil airdrop decellerators) makes them unsuited for wider commercial markets. Government spending is very inefficient, and the salaried workforce works without much passion. Seeking to be first-to-market, AWE capital ventures tend to make a premature architectural down-select, and lose. The stealth model of knowledge prevents the public from learning from the mistakes. Public mistakes, like industrial R&D in Hawaii, are even somehow admired.

In the tiny little social world of specialized AWES R&D, where most of us know each other, at least by repute, we might have worked together far better if we had mostly remained at a modest steady level of capitalization. There was a strong randomness to what AWE players and ideas got funded, and what/who did not. Its sad so many past players "took the money and ran", rather than delivering valid solutions. As eager as ever, I look forward to the actual engineering competition finally coming to the fore, with a strong cooperative ethos to play fair, without underestimating the resolve required of all those who make that race.





On Monday, November 16, 2015 6:59 AM, "Hardensoft International Limited hardensoftintl@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
 Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association (AWEIA International) remains an open-to-all AWE or KiteEnergy players - professionals, amateurs or plain consumers. MAKANI and then JOBY now merged with MAKANI were both aware and indeed were expected as co-founding members. Rather than support the open association, they went ahead to found the 'pay-to-play' Consortium and registered it as an industry association - (money speaks). DaveS in particular has consistently since objected to a formal registration of AWEIA so as to avoid 'unnecessary duplications' in the hope that both AWEC and AWEIA may yet merge for the 'one global AWE voice'. Unfortunately, DaveS seems to have underestimated the resolve of the other parties to compete rather than cooperate even when the need for cooperation and the advantages of such cooperation are so glaring to the discerning. Google may be slow in catching up with this truth but I expect that sooner than later, if not through Makani, then surely by some other means, the cooperative and good-will spirit of Google will inform them that Open AWE waits with extended hands of brotherhood.
Further lifts.
JohnO
AWEIA International
John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
Managing Consultant & CEO
Hardensoft International Limited
<Technologies  
If the M600 roundly fails to meet design requirements, that's a fresh cue for Open-AWE to assert itself directly to Google leadership, via the journalistic fallout. Perhaps Makani staff never has forwarded years of Open-AWE concerns up the Google management chain, or Google simply needs dramatic failure to open up to broader AWE thinking.

Google itself was built on Open-Linux servers. Makani's insider negligence ensured that Open-AWE developed "lean and mean", and ready to disrupt Makani itself. Open-AWE always presumed boot-strapping from early-to-market revenue as the default most-competitive approach, in the likely case serious venture capital did not materialize. 

We have yet to see the global cooperative "Manhattan Project" many have called for, to directly fly-off competing AWES concepts. As consolation, we have a fine array of independent AWES projects to compare analytically, with enough public data leaks for experts to draw confident conjectures. 

In summary, the "Energy Kite" that JoeF named is evolving at RAD pace, regardless of shortcomings by any party. "Makani's Energy Kite" may yet derive from Open-AWE ideas, and AWEIA may be  the key player to make that transition.





On Sunday, November 15, 2015 7:27 AM, "Hardensoft International Limited hardensoftintl@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Rather sad that Makani (with the deep pockets of Google) chose to compete rather than cooperate with Open AWE. Let's hope that there will yet be a rethink in the interest of a world so much in need of this new field. I just imagine where we could be today had Joby/Makani had cooperated with KiteLab Group way back in 2009. Be rest assured the KIS Open AWE groups may yet emerge the true 'David' against their 'Goliath' in the ongoing contest. When that happens, it can only deepen the financial loss that though affordable to the 'High Tech' investors is wiser avoided. The time for a rethink is NOW.
JohnO
Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association (AWEIA International)

John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
Managing Consultant & CEO
Hardensoft International Limited
<Technologies  
Longtime readers will recall the debates years ago over what to call AWE, with Open-AWE favoring Wayne German's "Kite Energy", and all sorts of "HAWP", "HAWE", etc. contenders in the venture start-up space. "AWE" as such first emerged on the early Forum and won out as all sides adopted it (the FAA officially designated our platforms as "AWES", since "AWE" was already a formally designated aviation acronym). Early on, Joe Faust adopted "Energy Kite" for the airborne wing part, and stuck to it. "Energy Kite" is currently under attack by IP Net pirates seeking to monetize it as a TM, and JohnO is defending it on behalf of AWEIA (news soon). The fuss caused me to notice who else now exploits "Energy Kite" commercially, as a standard term-of-art? Makani Power.

It took almost ten years for Makani to finally embrace JoeF's usage of "Energy Kite" as a marketing mantra, after initially avoiding "kite" (aka the "K-word") as unsuitable in its promotional hype; attempting instead to establish "AWT" (Airborne Wind Turbine, which failed to catch-on, despite overwhelming Google-driven public exposure). Perhaps the "Energy Kite" term originated in some old patent or paper that Joe can point it out, but clearly he made it the standard term in AWE (compare with Ampyx's "Power Plane TM") by his legendary energykitesystems.net domain and content. 

Example- Four instances of "Energy Kite" on one just one Makani webpage-












Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19379 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/18/2015
Subject: Re: Kiting in Hurricanes
Some kiting at approximately 200 mph: 

Langley's 1957 Models



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19380 From: dave santos Date: 11/18/2015
Subject: Re: AWEIA and GOOGLE-MAKANI
We may have to activate the Open-AWE back-up plan. The idea is actually solve AWE to buy Google with the revenue to be able to open up Makani :)



On Wednesday, November 18, 2015 3:54 AM, "Hardensoft International Limited hardensoftintl@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
DaveS wrote: 'Why has the world seen so little technical result for so much money? '
Answer: Unhealthy rivalry in 'seeking to be first-to-market' leading to a premature architectural down-select, and loss.
How may we spread future investments to help fund other promising designs? I think the likes of Google can diversify their AWE investment rather than continuing to put all their precious 'eggs' in the single Makani 'basket'. Will Google consider supporting AWEIA member teams?
This is AWEIA's plea in the interest of all.
JohnO
AWEIA International
John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
Managing Consultant & CEO
Hardensoft International Limited
<Technologies  
Thanks JohnO, I fully agree with the picture you paint, with a distinction to offer. There are two sorts of competitive resolve in play in AWE; an engineering race for the best technical solutions, and a banal social and capital competition. I have in fact overestimated the willingness of many parties to compete in integrated engineering fly-offs, and scoring-matrices, and simulations, and underestimated the now-evident social and capital competition.

I recall Peter Lynn laughing in 2007 when I estimated perhaps 100 million had been invested in modern technical kite research, but Peter, as the world's top expert, knew of many times more investment washing about. Part was private ventures, but most by far was military investment. KiteShip counted on kite-related military contracts to carry the company while awaiting a ship-kite market, which did not materialize in time. Today its perhaps still an underestimate that close to a billion has been spent. We count about half of that in the public record, and there are shocking rumored amounts for big players like Google and SABIC.

Why has the world seen so little technical result for so much money? The military mission and procurement process for kite systems (mostly parafoil airdrop decellerators) makes them unsuited for wider commercial markets. Government spending is very inefficient, and the salaried workforce works without much passion. Seeking to be first-to-market, AWE capital ventures tend to make a premature architectural down-select, and lose. The stealth model of knowledge prevents the public from learning from the mistakes. Public mistakes, like industrial R&D in Hawaii, are even somehow admired.

In the tiny little social world of specialized AWES R&D, where most of us know each other, at least by repute, we might have worked together far better if we had mostly remained at a modest steady level of capitalization. There was a strong randomness to what AWE players and ideas got funded, and what/who did not. Its sad so many past players "took the money and ran", rather than delivering valid solutions. As eager as ever, I look forward to the actual engineering competition finally coming to the fore, with a strong cooperative ethos to play fair, without underestimating the resolve required of all those who make that race.





On Monday, November 16, 2015 6:59 AM, "Hardensoft International Limited hardensoftintl@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
 Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association (AWEIA International) remains an open-to-all AWE or KiteEnergy players - professionals, amateurs or plain consumers. MAKANI and then JOBY now merged with MAKANI were both aware and indeed were expected as co-founding members. Rather than support the open association, they went ahead to found the 'pay-to-play' Consortium and registered it as an industry association - (money speaks). DaveS in particular has consistently since objected to a formal registration of AWEIA so as to avoid 'unnecessary duplications' in the hope that both AWEC and AWEIA may yet merge for the 'one global AWE voice'. Unfortunately, DaveS seems to have underestimated the resolve of the other parties to compete rather than cooperate even when the need for cooperation and the advantages of such cooperation are so glaring to the discerning. Google may be slow in catching up with this truth but I expect that sooner than later, if not through Makani, then surely by some other means, the cooperative and good-will spirit of Google will inform them that Open AWE waits with extended hands of brotherhood.
Further lifts.
JohnO
AWEIA International
John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
Managing Consultant & CEO
Hardensoft International Limited
<Technologies  
If the M600 roundly fails to meet design requirements, that's a fresh cue for Open-AWE to assert itself directly to Google leadership, via the journalistic fallout. Perhaps Makani staff never has forwarded years of Open-AWE concerns up the Google management chain, or Google simply needs dramatic failure to open up to broader AWE thinking.

Google itself was built on Open-Linux servers. Makani's insider negligence ensured that Open-AWE developed "lean and mean", and ready to disrupt Makani itself. Open-AWE always presumed boot-strapping from early-to-market revenue as the default most-competitive approach, in the likely case serious venture capital did not materialize. 

We have yet to see the global cooperative "Manhattan Project" many have called for, to directly fly-off competing AWES concepts. As consolation, we have a fine array of independent AWES projects to compare analytically, with enough public data leaks for experts to draw confident conjectures. 

In summary, the "Energy Kite" that JoeF named is evolving at RAD pace, regardless of shortcomings by any party. "Makani's Energy Kite" may yet derive from Open-AWE ideas, and AWEIA may be  the key player to make that transition.





On Sunday, November 15, 2015 7:27 AM, "Hardensoft International Limited hardensoftintl@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Rather sad that Makani (with the deep pockets of Google) chose to compete rather than cooperate with Open AWE. Let's hope that there will yet be a rethink in the interest of a world so much in need of this new field. I just imagine where we could be today had Joby/Makani had cooperated with KiteLab Group way back in 2009. Be rest assured the KIS Open AWE groups may yet emerge the true 'David' against their 'Goliath' in the ongoing contest. When that happens, it can only deepen the financial loss that though affordable to the 'High Tech' investors is wiser avoided. The time for a rethink is NOW.
JohnO
Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association (AWEIA International)

John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
Managing Consultant & CEO
Hardensoft International Limited
<Technologies  
Longtime readers will recall the debates years ago over what to call AWE, with Open-AWE favoring Wayne German's "Kite Energy", and all sorts of "HAWP", "HAWE", etc. contenders in the venture start-up space. "AWE" as such first emerged on the early Forum and won out as all sides adopted it (the FAA officially designated our platforms as "AWES", since "AWE" was already a formally designated aviation acronym). Early on, Joe Faust adopted "Energy Kite" for the airborne wing part, and stuck to it. "Energy Kite" is currently under attack by IP Net pirates seeking to monetize it as a TM, and JohnO is defending it on behalf of AWEIA (news soon). The fuss caused me to notice who else now exploits "Energy Kite" commercially, as a standard term-of-art? Makani Power.

It took almost ten years for Makani to finally embrace JoeF's usage of "Energy Kite" as a marketing mantra, after initially avoiding "kite" (aka the "K-word") as unsuitable in its promotional hype; attempting instead to establish "AWT" (Airborne Wind Turbine, which failed to catch-on, despite overwhelming Google-driven public exposure). Perhaps the "Energy Kite" term originated in some old patent or paper that Joe can point it out, but clearly he made it the standard term in AWE (compare with Ampyx's "Power Plane TM") by his legendary energykitesystems.net domain and content. 

Example- Four instances of "Energy Kite" on one just one Makani webpage-














Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19381 From: dave santos Date: 11/18/2015
Subject: Re: Fw: LAGI Wins the J.M.K. Innovation Prize
What a nice surprise. Open-AWE is well positioned to act on this, since we reached out personally to all past kite-related energy-art applicants, in our role as AWE technical domain experts. It follows naturally that we can wrap together all our talents into a LAGI super-contender. Technical viability should move to the fore in selection of concepts to actually implement. Most of our best aerotectural developments have incubated since LAGI last ran hot, so its not just art and energy we offer. The key is to not delay responding, since LAGI politics could quickly tie up the new funding on non-AWE selections. We need to regroup and step-up.

AWEfest itself is more prepared than ever, having survived starved beginnings. The fire seems ready to finally catch on.



On Wednesday, November 18, 2015 3:36 AM, "Hardensoft International Limited hardensoftintl@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Congratulations, LAGI.
Attached is a LAGI 'KiteEnergy' image.
JohnO
President-protem, Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association (AWEIA International)
 
John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
Managing Consultant & CEO
Hardensoft International Limited
<Technologies
We're pleased to announce that the Land Art Generator Initiative has been named by the J.M. Kaplan Fund as one of ten inaugural winners of the J.M.K. Innovation Prize, a new initiative to support and raise the visibility of U.S.-based teams or individuals addressing our country's most pressing needs through social-sector innovation.
We'd like to extend our thanks to, and share this recognition with, the thousands of participants in LAGI design competitions, whose amazing innovations make LAGI possible. The above image is composed of thumbnails of the work that can be seen in the online LAGI portfolio. By presenting these inspiring images of what our energy landscapes can aspire to be, these teams are helping to make climate action something that can spark the imagination of the world.
The J.M.K. Innovation Prize will allow LAGI to expand consulting and project management work in cities around the world that are seeking creative ways of integrating sustainable infrastructures into regenerative planning and projects. Over the next few years, LAGI will be working closely with our design partners (past LAGI design competition participants) on the detailed design and construction of many regenerative public art installations at various scales and site contexts.
The J.M.K. Innovation Prize will also partially support the 2016 LAGI Design Competition for Southern California by providing the award funding. LAGI 2016 will re-imagine the coast of Santa Monica by inviting individuals and interdisciplinary teams to design a large-scale, site-specific work of public art that also serves as clean energy and/or drinking water infrastructure for the city.

the LAGI 2016 design site
We congratulate the J.M. Kaplan Fund on their development of the J.M.K. Innovation Prize and thank them for their generous support.
RECENT LAGI PRESS!
The Guardian
Public art projects that double as renewable energy sources

TakePart
Kids create street art that generates solar power

We Are Anonymous
Students Design Solar Artwork, Power Disadvantaged Neighborhood With Clean Energy
THE IMPORTANCE OF THE LAND ART GENERATOR INITIATIVE
As we continue to work together to design and implement a post-carbon world, the impact of sustainable infrastructures on the constructed environment is becoming an important focus of urban planning and placemaking.
At the same time, a culture war over land use has slowed the implementation of many proposed wind and solar installations. By engaging communities with an inspiring vision of our sustainable future and providing context-specific solutions for sensitive sites, we would like to help turn the tide of public discourse and bring about universal support for immediate investment in 100% renewable infrastructure.
We're helping to educate the next generation of artists, architects, engineers, city planners, landscape architects, designers, and scientists, who will find greater innovation through interdisciplinary collaboration and creativity.
If you appreciate the work that LAGI is doing to promote sustainable development and the arts—both in education and in the built environment—please consider a tax-deductible gift to help make LAGI 2016 and our educational content possible. Thank you!





Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19382 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/18/2015
Subject: Tentsile

Query our forum in the search tool with   Tentsile

for some prior notes mixed with other topics. 

This topic thread invites pointed discussion of Tentsile 

and its products, especially how the products might play roles in AWES matters. 


Indeed some of the Tentsile products are kite systems that convert energy of the wind to do work. The work easily first seen is the bending of trees and the loading of energy into tensed tethers and wing fabrics. As yet no one has reported mining the Tentsile products for doing other practical works like the generation of electricity for light or warmth.   Some our forum's first notes point to the Tentsile products being part of Aerotecture, living in the sky, etc. 


For some neat photos: click through the 14 photos at the reached site.  Multi-storied arrangements also. Anchors are trees, boulders ... Tethers are special webs. Some special metal bling is involved. Canopies and platforms form the wings of the kite system; the primary keeping of the wings in the air is not by kiting, but by bridging via tension members; but when the wind occurs, then kiting deflections occur either up, down, or otherwise. 

Tentsile releases Vista multi-story tree tent - Images


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19383 From: dave santos Date: 11/18/2015
Subject: COTS Megascale Wire Rope
Having reviewed giant chain in a recent post, what about megascale wire-rope? Wire enabled the greatest feats of the Golden Age of Kites, a century ago, when steel piano-wire was the high-tech state-of-the-art kite line.* Nowadays. of course, lower mass comparable strength and diameter polymer cable is favored aloft for AWES, nevertheless, wire-rope will long remain economically attractive for surface and marine tensile-transmission up to GW scale power ratings (the rope must be driven fast for high power). Note the rich market of industrial COTS "Access and Lifting" (rigging) resources featured on this site, along with a news item that sets an empiric scaling limit to current wire-rope practice. Question- How practical is it to splice giant wire-rope into closed loops?-


--------------------------------
* Has anyone on record flown a kite on chain? A drag-chain or drag-rope would be a simple robust method to sustain kite flight across select surfaces like sand-dunes or ice-caps.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19384 From: dave santos Date: 11/18/2015
Subject: Re: Tentsile
Tentsile is still slated as the initial aerotectural habitat provider for kPower's evolving kite- lift capablity. Kite and tent should finally come together next year, if incremental project funding and safety testing allow. Tentsile's fast-expanding product line on their own website-




On Wednesday, November 18, 2015 9:15 AM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Query our forum in the search tool with   Tentsile
for some prior notes mixed with other topics. 
This topic thread invites pointed discussion of Tentsile 
and its products, especially how the products might play roles in AWES matters. 

Indeed some of the Tentsile products are kite systems that convert energy of the wind to do work. The work easily first seen is the bending of trees and the loading of energy into tensed tethers and wing fabrics. As yet no one has reported mining the Tentsile products for doing other practical works like the generation of electricity for light or warmth.   Some our forum's first notes point to the Tentsile products being part of Aerotecture, living in the sky, etc. 

For some neat photos: click through the 14 photos at the reached site.  Multi-storied arrangements also. Anchors are trees, boulders ... Tethers are special webs. Some special metal bling is involved. Canopies and platforms form the wings of the kite system; the primary keeping of the wings in the air is not by kiting, but by bridging via tension members; but when the wind occurs, then kiting deflections occur either up, down, or otherwise. 



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19385 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/18/2015
Subject: Re: Inhabited kite systems

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19386 From: dave santos Date: 11/18/2015
Subject: Re: Inhabited kite systems
One really sees in this video how little tether force is required for human flight in kite mode. It looks like the tow-force is even less than the 50lbs Dale Kramer cites for a high-performance glider. How is that, given an HG has a lower L/D? Gross weight is enough lower for the HG such that total L and D forces measured at the anchor-point are lower. Another notable aspect is that the airborne folks are more passenger than pilot. Using two lines, its the handlers on the ground controlling AoA, with dihedral and pendulum stability doing the rest. In addition, the shoreline berm creates a narrow LLJ, for a "ridge-soar" boost effect.

All in all, this HG training method does evoke a habitable flying platform where one can sleep, read, eat, and so on. One need only rig a two-line stub-mast anchor (and beef up the landing gear as well) to passively automate the flying.



On Wednesday, November 18, 2015 5:17 PM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19387 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 11/18/2015
Subject: Re: AWEIA and GOOGLE-MAKANI
Yeah, DaveS. You just let our 'cat out of the bag'. 
Further lifts.
JohnO
AWEIA International
John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
Managing Consultant & CEO
Hardensoft International Limited
<Technologies  
We may have to activate the Open-AWE back-up plan. The idea is actually solve AWE to buy Google with the revenue to be able to open up Makani :)



On Wednesday, November 18, 2015 3:54 AM, "Hardensoft International Limited hardensoftintl@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
DaveS wrote: 'Why has the world seen so little technical result for so much money? '
Answer: Unhealthy rivalry in 'seeking to be first-to-market' leading to a premature architectural down-select, and loss.
How may we spread future investments to help fund other promising designs? I think the likes of Google can diversify their AWE investment rather than continuing to put all their precious 'eggs' in the single Makani 'basket'. Will Google consider supporting AWEIA member teams?
This is AWEIA's plea in the interest of all.
JohnO
AWEIA International
John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
Managing Consultant & CEO
Hardensoft International Limited
<Technologies  
Thanks JohnO, I fully agree with the picture you paint, with a distinction to offer. There are two sorts of competitive resolve in play in AWE; an engineering race for the best technical solutions, and a banal social and capital competition. I have in fact overestimated the willingness of many parties to compete in integrated engineering fly-offs, and scoring-matrices, and simulations, and underestimated the now-evident social and capital competition.

I recall Peter Lynn laughing in 2007 when I estimated perhaps 100 million had been invested in modern technical kite research, but Peter, as the world's top expert, knew of many times more investment washing about. Part was private ventures, but most by far was military investment. KiteShip counted on kite-related military contracts to carry the company while awaiting a ship-kite market, which did not materialize in time. Today its perhaps still an underestimate that close to a billion has been spent. We count about half of that in the public record, and there are shocking rumored amounts for big players like Google and SABIC.

Why has the world seen so little technical result for so much money? The military mission and procurement process for kite systems (mostly parafoil airdrop decellerators) makes them unsuited for wider commercial markets. Government spending is very inefficient, and the salaried workforce works without much passion. Seeking to be first-to-market, AWE capital ventures tend to make a premature architectural down-select, and lose. The stealth model of knowledge prevents the public from learning from the mistakes. Public mistakes, like industrial R&D in Hawaii, are even somehow admired.

In the tiny little social world of specialized AWES R&D, where most of us know each other, at least by repute, we might have worked together far better if we had mostly remained at a modest steady level of capitalization. There was a strong randomness to what AWE players and ideas got funded, and what/who did not. Its sad so many past players "took the money and ran", rather than delivering valid solutions. As eager as ever, I look forward to the actual engineering competition finally coming to the fore, with a strong cooperative ethos to play fair, without underestimating the resolve required of all those who make that race.





On Monday, November 16, 2015 6:59 AM, "Hardensoft International Limited hardensoftintl@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
 Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association (AWEIA International) remains an open-to-all AWE or KiteEnergy players - professionals, amateurs or plain consumers. MAKANI and then JOBY now merged with MAKANI were both aware and indeed were expected as co-founding members. Rather than support the open association, they went ahead to found the 'pay-to-play' Consortium and registered it as an industry association - (money speaks). DaveS in particular has consistently since objected to a formal registration of AWEIA so as to avoid 'unnecessary duplications' in the hope that both AWEC and AWEIA may yet merge for the 'one global AWE voice'. Unfortunately, DaveS seems to have underestimated the resolve of the other parties to compete rather than cooperate even when the need for cooperation and the advantages of such cooperation are so glaring to the discerning. Google may be slow in catching up with this truth but I expect that sooner than later, if not through Makani, then surely by some other means, the cooperative and good-will spirit of Google will inform them that Open AWE waits with extended hands of brotherhood.
Further lifts.
JohnO
AWEIA International
John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
Managing Consultant & CEO
Hardensoft International Limited
<Technologies  
If the M600 roundly fails to meet design requirements, that's a fresh cue for Open-AWE to assert itself directly to Google leadership, via the journalistic fallout. Perhaps Makani staff never has forwarded years of Open-AWE concerns up the Google management chain, or Google simply needs dramatic failure to open up to broader AWE thinking.

Google itself was built on Open-Linux servers. Makani's insider negligence ensured that Open-AWE developed "lean and mean", and ready to disrupt Makani itself. Open-AWE always presumed boot-strapping from early-to-market revenue as the default most-competitive approach, in the likely case serious venture capital did not materialize. 

We have yet to see the global cooperative "Manhattan Project" many have called for, to directly fly-off competing AWES concepts. As consolation, we have a fine array of independent AWES projects to compare analytically, with enough public data leaks for experts to draw confident conjectures. 

In summary, the "Energy Kite" that JoeF named is evolving at RAD pace, regardless of shortcomings by any party. "Makani's Energy Kite" may yet derive from Open-AWE ideas, and AWEIA may be  the key player to make that transition.





On Sunday, November 15, 2015 7:27 AM, "Hardensoft International Limited hardensoftintl@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Rather sad that Makani (with the deep pockets of Google) chose to compete rather than cooperate with Open AWE. Let's hope that there will yet be a rethink in the interest of a world so much in need of this new field. I just imagine where we could be today had Joby/Makani had cooperated with KiteLab Group way back in 2009. Be rest assured the KIS Open AWE groups may yet emerge the true 'David' against their 'Goliath' in the ongoing contest. When that happens, it can only deepen the financial loss that though affordable to the 'High Tech' investors is wiser avoided. The time for a rethink is NOW.
JohnO
Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association (AWEIA International)

John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
Managing Consultant & CEO
Hardensoft International Limited
<Technologies  
Longtime readers will recall the debates years ago over what to call AWE, with Open-AWE favoring Wayne German's "Kite Energy", and all sorts of "HAWP", "HAWE", etc. contenders in the venture start-up space. "AWE" as such first emerged on the early Forum and won out as all sides adopted it (the FAA officially designated our platforms as "AWES", since "AWE" was already a formally designated aviation acronym). Early on, Joe Faust adopted "Energy Kite" for the airborne wing part, and stuck to it. "Energy Kite" is currently under attack by IP Net pirates seeking to monetize it as a TM, and JohnO is defending it on behalf of AWEIA (news soon). The fuss caused me to notice who else now exploits "Energy Kite" commercially, as a standard term-of-art? Makani Power.

It took almost ten years for Makani to finally embrace JoeF's usage of "Energy Kite" as a marketing mantra, after initially avoiding "kite" (aka the "K-word") as unsuitable in its promotional hype; attempting instead to establish "AWT" (Airborne Wind Turbine, which failed to catch-on, despite overwhelming Google-driven public exposure). Perhaps the "Energy Kite" term originated in some old patent or paper that Joe can point it out, but clearly he made it the standard term in AWE (compare with Ampyx's "Power Plane TM") by his legendary energykitesystems.net domain and content. 

Example- Four instances of "Energy Kite" on one just one Makani webpage-
















Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19388 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 11/18/2015
Subject: Re: Fw: LAGI Wins the J.M.K. Innovation Prize
Who is our team member to reach out to LAGI? We seem to have forgotten about the EU Funding opportunity.
 
John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
Managing Consultant & CEO
Hardensoft International Limited
<Technologies  
What a nice surprise. Open-AWE is well positioned to act on this, since we reached out personally to all past kite-related energy-art applicants, in our role as AWE technical domain experts. It follows naturally that we can wrap together all our talents into a LAGI super-contender. Technical viability should move to the fore in selection of concepts to actually implement. Most of our best aerotectural developments have incubated since LAGI last ran hot, so its not just art and energy we offer. The key is to not delay responding, since LAGI politics could quickly tie up the new funding on non-AWE selections. We need to regroup and step-up.

AWEfest itself is more prepared than ever, having survived starved beginnings. The fire seems ready to finally catch on.





On Wednesday, November 18, 2015 3:36 AM, "Hardensoft International Limited hardensoftintl@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Congratulations, LAGI.
Attached is a LAGI 'KiteEnergy' image.
JohnO
President-protem, Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association (AWEIA International)
 
John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
Managing Consultant & CEO
Hardensoft International Limited
<Technologies
We're pleased to announce that the Land Art Generator Initiative has been named by the J.M. Kaplan Fund as one of ten inaugural winners of the J.M.K. Innovation Prize, a new initiative to support and raise the visibility of U.S.-based teams or individuals addressing our country's most pressing needs through social-sector innovation.
We'd like to extend our thanks to, and share this recognition with, the thousands of participants in LAGI design competitions, whose amazing innovations make LAGI possible. The above image is composed of thumbnails of the work that can be seen in the online LAGI portfolio. By presenting these inspiring images of what our energy landscapes can aspire to be, these teams are helping to make climate action something that can spark the imagination of the world.
The J.M.K. Innovation Prize will allow LAGI to expand consulting and project management work in cities around the world that are seeking creative ways of integrating sustainable infrastructures into regenerative planning and projects. Over the next few years, LAGI will be working closely with our design partners (past LAGI design competition participants) on the detailed design and construction of many regenerative public art installations at various scales and site contexts.
The J.M.K. Innovation Prize will also partially support the 2016 LAGI Design Competition for Southern California by providing the award funding. LAGI 2016 will re-imagine the coast of Santa Monica by inviting individuals and interdisciplinary teams to design a large-scale, site-specific work of public art that also serves as clean energy and/or drinking water infrastructure for the city.

the LAGI 2016 design site
We congratulate the J.M. Kaplan Fund on their development of the J.M.K. Innovation Prize and thank them for their generous support.
RECENT LAGI PRESS!
The Guardian
Public art projects that double as renewable energy sources

TakePart
Kids create street art that generates solar power

We Are Anonymous
Students Design Solar Artwork, Power Disadvantaged Neighborhood With Clean Energy
THE IMPORTANCE OF THE LAND ART GENERATOR INITIATIVE
As we continue to work together to design and implement a post-carbon world, the impact of sustainable infrastructures on the constructed environment is becoming an important focus of urban planning and placemaking.
At the same time, a culture war over land use has slowed the implementation of many proposed wind and solar installations. By engaging communities with an inspiring vision of our sustainable future and providing context-specific solutions for sensitive sites, we would like to help turn the tide of public discourse and bring about universal support for immediate investment in 100% renewable infrastructure.
We're helping to educate the next generation of artists, architects, engineers, city planners, landscape architects, designers, and scientists, who will find greater innovation through interdisciplinary collaboration and creativity.
If you appreciate the work that LAGI is doing to promote sustainable development and the arts—both in education and in the built environment—please consider a tax-deductible gift to help make LAGI 2016 and our educational content possible. Thank you!







Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19389 From: dave santos Date: 11/19/2015
Subject: Re: Fw: LAGI Wins the J.M.K. Innovation Prize
JohnO,

I'll be contacting our past LAGI kite energy contacts, current aerotecture and AWEfest players, and the BH engineering firm, to position for the pending new round, or maybe a bypass project. LAGI itself is a morass of artsy insiders difficult to mobilize on superior technical grounds. Our best LAGI bet seems to be to ride the consolidated coattails of past official entries whose kite ideas need expertise to become real.

What was the "EU funding opportunity" you mention, and how does LAGI figure? Unless we have a specialized professional fundraiser person, we remain best focused on our techne taking root regardless. Its very hard to both raise money and keep technical study foremost, If we ace the technical side, the funding will flow of itself, and we are closer than ever to realizing that truest model of advancement. Money by itself is impotent in AWE, and most of our losers lost the money game by losing the technical game (while a few only won the money game),

daveS



On Wednesday, November 18, 2015 7:26 PM, "Hardensoft International Limited hardensoftintl@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Who is our team member to reach out to LAGI? We seem to have forgotten about the EU Funding opportunity.
 
John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
Managing Consultant & CEO
Hardensoft International Limited
<Technologies  
What a nice surprise. Open-AWE is well positioned to act on this, since we reached out personally to all past kite-related energy-art applicants, in our role as AWE technical domain experts. It follows naturally that we can wrap together all our talents into a LAGI super-contender. Technical viability should move to the fore in selection of concepts to actually implement. Most of our best aerotectural developments have incubated since LAGI last ran hot, so its not just art and energy we offer. The key is to not delay responding, since LAGI politics could quickly tie up the new funding on non-AWE selections. We need to regroup and step-up.

AWEfest itself is more prepared than ever, having survived starved beginnings. The fire seems ready to finally catch on.





On Wednesday, November 18, 2015 3:36 AM, "Hardensoft International Limited hardensoftintl@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Congratulations, LAGI.
Attached is a LAGI 'KiteEnergy' image.
JohnO
President-protem, Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association (AWEIA International)
 
John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
Managing Consultant & CEO
Hardensoft International Limited
<Technologies
We're pleased to announce that the Land Art Generator Initiative has been named by the J.M. Kaplan Fund as one of ten inaugural winners of the J.M.K. Innovation Prize, a new initiative to support and raise the visibility of U.S.-based teams or individuals addressing our country's most pressing needs through social-sector innovation.
We'd like to extend our thanks to, and share this recognition with, the thousands of participants in LAGI design competitions, whose amazing innovations make LAGI possible. The above image is composed of thumbnails of the work that can be seen in the online LAGI portfolio. By presenting these inspiring images of what our energy landscapes can aspire to be, these teams are helping to make climate action something that can spark the imagination of the world.
The J.M.K. Innovation Prize will allow LAGI to expand consulting and project management work in cities around the world that are seeking creative ways of integrating sustainable infrastructures into regenerative planning and projects. Over the next few years, LAGI will be working closely with our design partners (past LAGI design competition participants) on the detailed design and construction of many regenerative public art installations at various scales and site contexts.
The J.M.K. Innovation Prize will also partially support the 2016 LAGI Design Competition for Southern California by providing the award funding. LAGI 2016 will re-imagine the coast of Santa Monica by inviting individuals and interdisciplinary teams to design a large-scale, site-specific work of public art that also serves as clean energy and/or drinking water infrastructure for the city.

the LAGI 2016 design site
We congratulate the J.M. Kaplan Fund on their development of the J.M.K. Innovation Prize and thank them for their generous support.
RECENT LAGI PRESS!
The Guardian
Public art projects that double as renewable energy sources

TakePart
Kids create street art that generates solar power

We Are Anonymous
Students Design Solar Artwork, Power Disadvantaged Neighborhood With Clean Energy
THE IMPORTANCE OF THE LAND ART GENERATOR INITIATIVE
As we continue to work together to design and implement a post-carbon world, the impact of sustainable infrastructures on the constructed environment is becoming an important focus of urban planning and placemaking.
At the same time, a culture war over land use has slowed the implementation of many proposed wind and solar installations. By engaging communities with an inspiring vision of our sustainable future and providing context-specific solutions for sensitive sites, we would like to help turn the tide of public discourse and bring about universal support for immediate investment in 100% renewable infrastructure.
We're helping to educate the next generation of artists, architects, engineers, city planners, landscape architects, designers, and scientists, who will find greater innovation through interdisciplinary collaboration and creativity.
If you appreciate the work that LAGI is doing to promote sustainable development and the arts—both in education and in the built environment—please consider a tax-deductible gift to help make LAGI 2016 and our educational content possible. Thank you!









Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19390 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 11/20/2015
Subject: Re: Fw: LAGI Wins the J.M.K. Innovation Prize
Agreed, DaveS.
I meant the H2020 ???
Are our Italian friends yet onboard?
JohnO

John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
Managing Consultant & CEO
Hardensoft International Limited
<Technologies  
JohnO,

I'll be contacting our past LAGI kite energy contacts, current aerotecture and AWEfest players, and the BH engineering firm, to position for the pending new round, or maybe a bypass project. LAGI itself is a morass of artsy insiders difficult to mobilize on superior technical grounds. Our best LAGI bet seems to be to ride the consolidated coattails of past official entries whose kite ideas need expertise to become real.

What was the "EU funding opportunity" you mention, and how does LAGI figure? Unless we have a specialized professional fundraiser person, we remain best focused on our techne taking root regardless. Its very hard to both raise money and keep technical study foremost, If we ace the technical side, the funding will flow of itself, and we are closer than ever to realizing that truest model of advancement. Money by itself is impotent in AWE, and most of our losers lost the money game by losing the technical game (while a few only won the money game),

daveS





On Wednesday, November 18, 2015 7:26 PM, "Hardensoft International Limited hardensoftintl@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Who is our team member to reach out to LAGI? We seem to have forgotten about the EU Funding opportunity.
 
John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
Managing Consultant & CEO
Hardensoft International Limited
<Technologies  
What a nice surprise. Open-AWE is well positioned to act on this, since we reached out personally to all past kite-related energy-art applicants, in our role as AWE technical domain experts. It follows naturally that we can wrap together all our talents into a LAGI super-contender. Technical viability should move to the fore in selection of concepts to actually implement. Most of our best aerotectural developments have incubated since LAGI last ran hot, so its not just art and energy we offer. The key is to not delay responding, since LAGI politics could quickly tie up the new funding on non-AWE selections. We need to regroup and step-up.

AWEfest itself is more prepared than ever, having survived starved beginnings. The fire seems ready to finally catch on.





On Wednesday, November 18, 2015 3:36 AM, "Hardensoft International Limited hardensoftintl@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Congratulations, LAGI.
Attached is a LAGI 'KiteEnergy' image.
JohnO
President-protem, Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association (AWEIA International)
 
John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
Managing Consultant & CEO
Hardensoft International Limited
<Technologies
We're pleased to announce that the Land Art Generator Initiative has been named by the J.M. Kaplan Fund as one of ten inaugural winners of the J.M.K. Innovation Prize, a new initiative to support and raise the visibility of U.S.-based teams or individuals addressing our country's most pressing needs through social-sector innovation.
We'd like to extend our thanks to, and share this recognition with, the thousands of participants in LAGI design competitions, whose amazing innovations make LAGI possible. The above image is composed of thumbnails of the work that can be seen in the online LAGI portfolio. By presenting these inspiring images of what our energy landscapes can aspire to be, these teams are helping to make climate action something that can spark the imagination of the world.
The J.M.K. Innovation Prize will allow LAGI to expand consulting and project management work in cities around the world that are seeking creative ways of integrating sustainable infrastructures into regenerative planning and projects. Over the next few years, LAGI will be working closely with our design partners (past LAGI design competition participants) on the detailed design and construction of many regenerative public art installations at various scales and site contexts.
The J.M.K. Innovation Prize will also partially support the 2016 LAGI Design Competition for Southern California by providing the award funding. LAGI 2016 will re-imagine the coast of Santa Monica by inviting individuals and interdisciplinary teams to design a large-scale, site-specific work of public art that also serves as clean energy and/or drinking water infrastructure for the city.

the LAGI 2016 design site
We congratulate the J.M. Kaplan Fund on their development of the J.M.K. Innovation Prize and thank them for their generous support.
RECENT LAGI PRESS!
The Guardian
Public art projects that double as renewable energy sources

TakePart
Kids create street art that generates solar power

We Are Anonymous
Students Design Solar Artwork, Power Disadvantaged Neighborhood With Clean Energy
THE IMPORTANCE OF THE LAND ART GENERATOR INITIATIVE
As we continue to work together to design and implement a post-carbon world, the impact of sustainable infrastructures on the constructed environment is becoming an important focus of urban planning and placemaking.
At the same time, a culture war over land use has slowed the implementation of many proposed wind and solar installations. By engaging communities with an inspiring vision of our sustainable future and providing context-specific solutions for sensitive sites, we would like to help turn the tide of public discourse and bring about universal support for immediate investment in 100% renewable infrastructure.
We're helping to educate the next generation of artists, architects, engineers, city planners, landscape architects, designers, and scientists, who will find greater innovation through interdisciplinary collaboration and creativity.
If you appreciate the work that LAGI is doing to promote sustainable development and the arts—both in education and in the built environment—please consider a tax-deductible gift to help make LAGI 2016 and our educational content possible. Thank you!











Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19391 From: dave santos Date: 11/20/2015
Subject: "Liquid Piston" Engines and Wind
Many AWES concepts involve direct mechanical work or energy storage. The pistonless rotary engine is a contender in AWES design to convert wind kinetic energy directly into compressed storage, as a sort of mechanical battery. The old Wankel has evolved into current "liquid piston" versions. Rather than combustion, high (de) compression ratios drive the engine bidirectionally, for motor/gen (reverse-pumping) dual-modes. Electrical demand can be matched to direct-generated or surplus mechanical forces. In the event of true age of "cheap storage", AWES operation could be very part-time, with the operator only needing to harvest optimal winds in brief sessions.

Shipstone of Canada is open to adopting AWE as the kinetic input, with a remote northern community as a field case. Heat-of-compression is useful for space-heating far north. Its up to the AWE side to drive these new liquid piston plants. Piston engines remain the baseline compression tech, if rotary fails to catch on. Consider these rotary IC engines as non-combustive state-of-the-art compressor-decompressor mechanisms-


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19392 From: dave santos Date: 11/20/2015
Subject: "Jig-Back" Ropeway Methods for AWES
A Jig-Back Ropeway balances ascending and descending masses for greatly reduced actuation forces and capital costs. Similar instances of the concept exist in AWE, like Twind and Kite Power Solutions, where a pair of linked kite units pay out and retract in alternation. Another jig-back use is to rotate giant kite arches without large wnches, by having the upwind side released downwind hauling the downwind side windward. A related idea is kite units gripping two-way cable-loops in both crosswind directions. Now we know what to call this class of methods- "Jig-Backs", in traditional rigging parlance. A few specialized ropeway companies, like Nippon Cable Co., are ready COTS suppliers of jig-back hardware and engineering expertise-


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19393 From: dave santos Date: 11/23/2015
Subject: Online Aeroelasticity Course by Prof. C. Venkatesan
Nice online lecture series from IIT Kanpur AE introducing modern aeroelastic science; a crucial aspect of AWES engineering design, especially at larger scales and higher velocities. Note the flapping wing demo at 41:30, and other wind-tunnel footage, illustrating powerful WECS potential by tapping aeroelastic dynamics-


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19394 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/24/2015
Subject: Visit from Selsam on two topics
Doug Selsam comments: 

Topic regarding the term: "ENERGY HARVESTING":
The term "energy harvesting" has been used in wind energy for many years.
There's even a company called Wind Harvest International promoting vertical axis machines.  Energy harvesting is a familiar term for an old concept.  It has been used a lot, over many years.

~ Doug Selsam 
==========================================

Topic regarding: "Why has the world seen so little technical result for so much money?"

I believe I described this reality when I predicted this exact lack of progress years ago, when all this was just getting underway:
1) Most "teams" do not know what they are doing.
2) Most "teams" are chasing the same idea, kite-reeling.
3) The "Professor Crackpot Syndrome" has been in place from day-one, and is the explanation for zero progress, as stated in advance, years ago.  Some of the known symptoms are:
     a) Pursue known bad ideas, but make them more expensive by taking them to the air.
     b) "Go BIG" ("we will power a village") when you clearly cannot even power a cottage.  Try to run before you can crawl, let alone walk.
     c) Substitute pictures of smiling grad students, renderings, and overly-optimistic predictions, for actual progress
     d) Pretend that dredging up long-obsolete, 1000-year-old concepts constitutes cutting-edge research
     e) Answer any serious questions or criticisms with name-calling and accusations of closed-mindedness
     f) When all else fails, invoke the name "Wright Brothers"
More specifically to AWE: 
     g) Don't try to think outside the box.  If you know a kite pulls on a string, don't think beyond the obvious - make that your working paradigm.  Buy kites, connect them to a string, try to get energy from the string, then "just give up".  Or take more pictures of more grad students.  Make sure they are smiling.  (But WHY are they smiling, if they can't produce economical power in a supposed quest to produce economical power?  I guess they don't know any better. Well, they're only grad students!  At least they got "a gig", right?  If you can't generate economical power, generate press-releases!
     h) Mission Creep:  The mission starts out as finding a way to generate electricity more economically, but soon degenerates into just mucking around flying kites and stuff, raising more money, hiring more grad students, etc.  At no point is a specific effort to produce electricity below a given price point taken seriously - that would be too hard - hey we were just having some fun!

Regarding the Wright Brothers and comparing AWE to the development of powered flight:
In the time AWE has been pursued, powered flight went from a curiosity to being weaponized in the first world war - perhaps actually being the CAUSE of the first world war, to delivering mail, and running regular routes, then making passenger trains and ships almost obsolete.  Certainly withing seven years of the Wrights' first flight, people all around the world were successfully building working airplanes.

The reason for the lack of progress in AWE?
Is it that there is really not that much energy up there?  No, there's lots of energy.
Is it a lack of materials of sufficient strength?  Not really, we have strong materials
Is it a lack of basic aerodynamic knowledge and experience?  Well, not when you have everything from sailboats and hang-gliders to airplanes to blimps to the space shuttle and everything in between to work from, not to mention the world already getting something like 4% of its electricity from wind power.

What is lacking?  
hmmmmm 
What about this:
Nobody knows what they are doing, nobody knows how to do it, and that fact is slowly being proven by the lack of progress.  Period.  End of story.  If you want the short version, the people trying AWE are simply not up to the task.  They have neither the expertise, nor the creativity, nor the understanding required, let alone the willingness and stick-to-it-iveness.  It's as simple as that.  Or put another way, "everyone is too dumb, and too lazy".  Or one could equivalently say "It's too hard".
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but I did say all this years ago, and of course few people listened then, just as few will probably listen now.
Oh well, we DO sometimes have to learn to laugh at ourselves, don't we?
~ Doug Selsam
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19395 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/24/2015
Subject: Re: Inside Minesto
Minesto enters technology partnership with Schottel Hydro

 



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19396 From: dave santos Date: 11/24/2015
Subject: Minesto "Deep-Green" News
Underwater energy kites progress closely parallel to AWE, as a smaller scene with few players. Nevertheless, Minesto's underwater energy-kite is on track to be first-to-market for utility-scale kite energy, with AWE lagging. It seems that operating buoyant energy-kites underwater offshore, while challenging, is inherently easier than perfecting aviation operations. The fish evolved before the bird-

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19397 From: dave santos Date: 11/24/2015
Subject: Re: Visit from Selsam on two topics
Even if AWE R&D was as clueless and hopeless as Doug describes, this forum would still stand for those who study-on and do not give up. The informed optimistic view is that solving AWE is best done like the Wright Bros, rather than any model Doug has offered. Although Maxwell and Langley had very little to show for millions invested, the Bros only needed a small budget and hands-on skills.



On Tuesday, November 24, 2015 7:09 PM, "Joe Faust joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Doug Selsam comments: 

Topic regarding the term: "ENERGY HARVESTING":
The term "energy harvesting" has been used in wind energy for many years.
There's even a company called Wind Harvest International promoting vertical axis machines.  Energy harvesting is a familiar term for an old concept.  It has been used a lot, over many years.

~ Doug Selsam 
==========================================

Topic regarding: "Why has the world seen so little technical result for so much money?"

I believe I described this reality when I predicted this exact lack of progress years ago, when all this was just getting underway:
1) Most "teams" do not know what they are doing.
2) Most "teams" are chasing the same idea, kite-reeling.
3) The "Professor Crackpot Syndrome" has been in place from day-one, and is the explanation for zero progress, as stated in advance, years ago.  Some of the known symptoms are:
     a) Pursue known bad ideas, but make them more expensive by taking them to the air.
     b) "Go BIG" ("we will power a village") when you clearly cannot even power a cottage.  Try to run before you can crawl, let alone walk.
     c) Substitute pictures of smiling grad students, renderings, and overly-optimistic predictions, for actual progress
     d) Pretend that dredging up long-obsolete, 1000-year-old concepts constitutes cutting-edge research
     e) Answer any serious questions or criticisms with name-calling and accusations of closed-mindedness
     f) When all else fails, invoke the name "Wright Brothers"
More specifically to AWE: 
     g) Don't try to think outside the box.  If you know a kite pulls on a string, don't think beyond the obvious - make that your working paradigm.  Buy kites, connect them to a string, try to get energy from the string, then "just give up".  Or take more pictures of more grad students.  Make sure they are smiling.  (But WHY are they smiling, if they can't produce economical power in a supposed quest to produce economical power?  I guess they don't know any better. Well, they're only grad students!  At least they got "a gig", right?  If you can't generate economical power, generate press-releases!
     h) Mission Creep:  The mission starts out as finding a way to generate electricity more economically, but soon degenerates into just mucking around flying kites and stuff, raising more money, hiring more grad students, etc.  At no point is a specific effort to produce electricity below a given price point taken seriously - that would be too hard - hey we were just having some fun!

Regarding the Wright Brothers and comparing AWE to the development of powered flight:
In the time AWE has been pursued, powered flight went from a curiosity to being weaponized in the first world war - perhaps actually being the CAUSE of the first world war, to delivering mail, and running regular routes, then making passenger trains and ships almost obsolete.  Certainly withing seven years of the Wrights' first flight, people all around the world were successfully building working airplanes.

The reason for the lack of progress in AWE?
Is it that there is really not that much energy up there?  No, there's lots of energy.
Is it a lack of materials of sufficient strength?  Not really, we have strong materials
Is it a lack of basic aerodynamic knowledge and experience?  Well, not when you have everything from sailboats and hang-gliders to airplanes to blimps to the space shuttle and everything in between to work from, not to mention the world already getting something like 4% of its electricity from wind power.

What is lacking?  
hmmmmm 
What about this:
Nobody knows what they are doing, nobody knows how to do it, and that fact is slowly being proven by the lack of progress.  Period.  End of story.  If you want the short version, the people trying AWE are simply not up to the task.  They have neither the expertise, nor the creativity, nor the understanding required, let alone the willingness and stick-to-it-iveness.  It's as simple as that.  Or put another way, "everyone is too dumb, and too lazy".  Or one could equivalently say "It's too hard".
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but I did say all this years ago, and of course few people listened then, just as few will probably listen now.
Oh well, we DO sometimes have to learn to laugh at ourselves, don't we?
~ Doug Selsam


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19398 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/24/2015
Subject: Re: Minesto "Deep-Green" News
SCHOTTEL HYDRO - SCHOTTEL

 



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19399 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/25/2015
Subject: Re: Minesto "Deep-Green" News
Tidal Energy from Deep and Slow Waters

 



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19400 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/25/2015
Subject: Re: Visit from Selsam on two topics
Doug Selsam has a modification to his leading statement of this topic thread.I would like to modify my previous statement:

1) I'm not sure if grad students are really part of the "Professor Crackpot Syndrome", per se, although we did not see the Wright Brothers posing for pix with a phalanx of smiling students (did we?).

2) That "syndrome" is more about unknowingly resurrecting known bad ideas as new, like say a Magenn.  Magenn was easy to see as a big mistake, making an inefficient Savonius even less efficient, and more expensive.  Sticking such a known bad design in a wind tunnel and forcing air through it is another repetitive "symptom".

3) From that standpoint, kite-reeling while flying a pattern is a new approach, not an old one, although it is reminiscent of the ancient urge to have a "piston-powered" "push-me-pull-you" windmill.

4) I honestly do not have the numbers to categorically throw kite-reeling out the window completely.  It is possible that it could end up working out, although it seems a bit complicated (I hate to use the term "Rube Goldberg" but that is the closest thing that comes to mind.)

5) While we don't necessarily hear any bad news about Kite-reeling, I think what seems to be of concern is the lack of good news.  But that is how this works - you hear a lot of chit-chat about "what WILL be", but that is where it usually ends.  They never issue a press-release saying "This didn't work out and we're giving up".  That is where my saying of "They quietly go away" comes from.

6) I wish everyone trying the best of luck, and would be happy to be shown as wrong in being skeptical of any approach, including kite-reeling.

~ Doug Selsam

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19401 From: dave santos Date: 11/26/2015
Subject: Re: Visit from Selsam on two topics

Doug asked: "...we did not see the Wright Brothers posing for pix with a phalanx of smiling students (did we?)"


Reply: In fact we have many photos of the Wright Bros posing with team-members and students, even from the start of glider experiments (photo at bottom). Naturally the Bros were skilled photographers who developed their own photos but that time folks did not "smile-for-the-camera" as much as is the custom today. The Wrights in-fact founded the first modern flight-school, whose distinguished graduates amount to a worthy "phalanx" (who surely smiled off-camera :) )


From left to right seated in front of the 1902 Wright Glider at Kitty Hawk: Octave Chanute, Orville Wright, Wilbur Wright, Augustus Herring, Dan Tate, and George Spratt.






On Wednesday, November 25, 2015 7:14 PM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Doug Selsam has a modification to his leading statement of this topic thread.I would like to modify my previous statement:

1) I'm not sure if grad students are really part of the "Professor Crackpot Syndrome", per se, although we did not see the Wright Brothers posing for pix with a phalanx of smiling students (did we?).

2) That "syndrome" is more about unknowingly resurrecting known bad ideas as new, like say a Magenn.  Magenn was easy to see as a big mistake, making an inefficient Savonius even less efficient, and more expensive.  Sticking such a known bad design in a wind tunnel and forcing air through it is another repetitive "symptom".

3) From that standpoint, kite-reeling while flying a pattern is a new approach, not an old one, although it is reminiscent of the ancient urge to have a "piston-powered" "push-me-pull-you" windmill.

4) I honestly do not have the numbers to categorically throw kite-reeling out the window completely.  It is possible that it could end up working out, although it seems a bit complicated (I hate to use the term "Rube Goldberg" but that is the closest thing that comes to mind.)

5) While we don't necessarily hear any bad news about Kite-reeling, I think what seems to be of concern is the lack of good news.  But that is how this works - you hear a lot of chit-chat about "what WILL be", but that is where it usually ends.  They never issue a press-release saying "This didn't work out and we're giving up".  That is where my saying of "They quietly go away" comes from.

6) I wish everyone trying the best of luck, and would be happy to be shown as wrong in being skeptical of any approach, including kite-reeling.

~ Doug Selsam



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19402 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/27/2015
Subject: Thomas J. Nugent is being referenced in some energy-kite patents
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19403 From: dave santos Date: 11/27/2015
Subject: Re: Thomas J. Nugent is being referenced in some energy-kite patents
A few words regarding the patent concept here of using light in fiber-optic cable as a power transmission basis, including in thunderstorms. The current barrier to displacing metallic conductors is the low efficiency of current lasers and photovoltaics (<~20%). Required catch-up advances in photonic emitter-receiver tech will take years to happen. A polymer fiber-optic cable in a thunder storm can still attract discharges via surface conductance (kPower Ilwaco has burnt-out polymer kitelines (#80 Dacron braid) in St. Elmo's Fire).  Well insulated DC conductors are not much more attractive to static discharge than pure dielectrics. Perhaps it will become practical to inhibit corona (dis)charges by future engineering means, active or passive, to master festooning the interior of storms with lines of all kinds.  The ITCZ equitorial storm belt would then be fully open to AWE...



On Friday, November 27, 2015 9:19 AM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19404 From: dave santos Date: 11/27/2015
Subject: Liability of a Breakaway Kite
Every aviation sector self-regulates to avoid risk and FAA intervention. In AWE, for kites, the regulatory picture is ideal; the FAA has exempted us from the strict rules other UAS sectors must apply (no doubt frequent crashing of high-performance kite-planes will lead to sky-high insurance premiums and further regulation). Tethered aviation (aerostat and kite) breakaway mishaps have caused major disruptions for over century. As AWES activity grows, breakaway incidents will multiply. Breakaway is especially inherent to high-mass high-velocity single-tether AWES units (Open-AWE leads in multi-line AWES architectures). A breakaway AWES unit effectively becomes an illegal drone (UAS) flight, with grave legal and moral liabilities fully applicable to the developer. Public safety seems to be a critical early-market advantage for integrated AWES based on multilines, which are far less prone to breakaway (and even self-kill by progressive line-break).

"The outcome hangs by a thread".
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19405 From: dave santos Date: 11/27/2015
Subject: Latest "Artificial Rain" demo by means of kites (kPower Ilwaco)
Today, in light cool wind, a 22m2 Peter Lynn pilot kite, raised a half-full two gallon water bag to 25m that drained into 30m of irrigation tubing of 6mm ID. The 2.5 atm pressure-boost when raised overcame considerable flow resistance of the small tube and drove a misty water jet at the surface about 2m long (~1 atm net pressure out). Lifting a mass of water high, in one go, is quite a "pumping-stroke". It was easy to walk any where in large circle under the flying water bag to pin-point the strange precipitation. The attending kite-dog was first intrigued then spooked (likes rain, hates baths). "Artificial Rain" is hereby designated as a non-trademark term-of-art. Previous Ilwaco experiments demonstrated water could easily be raised and dumped by energy kites. Today's demo showed COTS airborne hose is workable, to target water application and even drive microhydro power. Scaled up a thousand-fold and beyond, artificial rain will be a formidable geotechnology.

Open-AWE_IP-Cloud

---------------------
video and photo soon
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19406 From: dave santos Date: 11/27/2015
Subject: Mr. Kite, Pop-Culture Icon
Few catch "Mr. Kite" clearly in this classic Beatles song-

-----------------

For the benefit of Mr. Kite
There will be a show tonight on trampoline
The Hendersons will all be there
Late of Pablo Fanques' fair, what a scene
Over men and horses hoops and garters
Lastly through a hogshead of real fire
In this way Mr. K will challenge the world
The celebrated Mr. K
Performs his feats on Saturday at Bishopsgate
The Hendersons will dance and sing
As Mr. Kite flies through the ring, don't be late
Messrs K. and H. assure the public
Their production will be second to none
And of course Henry the Horse dances the waltz
The band begins at ten to six
When Mr. K performs his tricks without a sound
And Mr. H will demonstrate
Ten somersets he'll undertake on solid ground
Having been some days in preparation
A splendid time is guaranteed for all
And tonight Mr. Kite is topping the bill




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19407 From: dave santos Date: 11/27/2015
Subject: Latest "Artificial Rain" demo by means of kites (kPower Ilwaco)
Attachments :




    photo:

    WP_20151127_14_55_03_Pro.jpg








    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19408 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/27/2015
    Subject: Re: Visit from Selsam on two topics

    Doug Selsam notes carefully:

    "DaveS provided no evidence that the Wrights developed powered flight by utilizing a bunch of grad students.  The fact that he can use Google and Wikipedia to find a picture of the Wrights posing with Octave Chanute, or that they later founded a school to teach people to fly, has nothing to do with the topic of using grad students to develop a new technology."

    ~ Doug Selsam


    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19409 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/27/2015
    Subject: Re: Latest "Artificial Rain" demo by means of kites (kPower Ilwaco)
    We include any practical liquid or granularized solid for such lift-and-deliver systems.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19410 From: dave santos Date: 11/28/2015
    Subject: Re: Visit from Selsam on two topics
    Its true that in the time of the Wrights, AE grad students were non-existent, but only because the Wrights had to invent modern aviation first! That's why I quoted Doug on "students" more broadly. It hardly matters if a good student is grad-level.

    Doug overlooks that the Wright Bros themselves eagerly sought out the leading flight-science academics of their day for help (esp. Prof. Langley and Prof. Chanute), and were duly grateful for the help. Its fitting that today's AWE grad students smile broadly as they invoke the spirit of the Bros (and newer champions like Wubbo). When Reinhart, for example, invoked the Wrights on a TED stage, Doug objected on the insulting false grounds of "Professor Crackpot". Reinhart In fact displayed extreme knowledge and talent in developing FlySurfer's first SS wing. Doug, on the other hand, did not even know what "SS" meant, even long after. The primary characteristic of a crank or crackpot, according to various psychological indexes, is to hold false technical beliefs in deep social isolation (paranoid anger is also being a common hallmark of the crank type). Doug has never been able to show that any of the growing phalanx of smiling AWE grad students are isolated crackpots, who in fact collectively honor the Bros as a role model.

    Only Doug habitually objects to aerospace academia's natural reliance on the Bros as the ideal role-model for AWE R&D. Let him try and beat them by the numbers (max-watts, max-altitude, etc.) if he thinks he knows better how to succeed. Future AWE academics would then praise Doug to the skies.



    On Friday, November 27, 2015 7:13 PM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
    Doug Selsam notes carefully:
    "DaveS provided no evidence that the Wrights developed powered flight by utilizing a bunch of grad students.  The fact that he can use Google and Wikipedia to find a picture of the Wrights posing with Octave Chanute, or that they later founded a school to teach people to fly, has nothing to do with the topic of using grad students to develop a new technology."
    ~ Doug Selsam



    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19411 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/28/2015
    Subject: Re: Visit from Selsam on two topics
    daveS said: "Its true that in the time of the Wrights, AE grad students were non-existent, but only because the Wrights had to invent modern aviation first! That's why I quoted Doug on "students" more broadly. It hardly matters if a good student is grad-level."

    *** Doug replies:  There were plenty of universities, engineering and physics programs, and grad students, at the turn of the 20th century.  My point was simple: that the Wrights invented the airplane without using large numbers of grad students.  daveS has not shown otherwise.
    ===============

    daveS goes on: "Doug overlooks that the Wright Bros themselves eagerly sought out the leading flight-science academics of their day for help (esp. Prof. Langley and Prof. Chanute), and were duly grateful for the help."

    *** Doug replies:  I did not overlook anything (sheesh, not that again!).  The Wright Brothers did not use a bunch of grad students to invent the airplane, and daveS has not shown that they did.  My point stands.
    ===============

    daveS goes on: "Its fitting that today's AWE grad students smile broadly as they invoke the spirit of the Bros (and newer champions like Wubbo)."

    *** Doug replies:  The Wright Brothers did not use a bunch of grad students to invent the airplane and daveS has not shown that they did.
    ===============

     daveS goes on: "When Reinhart, for example, invoked the Wrights on a TED stage, Doug objected on the insulting false grounds of "Professor Crackpot". Reinhart In fact displayed extreme knowledge and talent in developing FlySurfer's first SS wing. Doug, on the other hand, did not even know what "SS" meant, even long after."

    *** Doug replies:  daveS has made this same statement several times, (that I somehow did not understand what a "single-skin" or "single-surface" (stainless-steel?) kite is), going on for years now.  I have corrected him more than once, apparently to no avail.  He is remembering a single instance when I briefly forgot his meaning, using one of his many pet abbreviations, being more attuned to actual wind energy than daveS' pet abbreviations, in this case coming from kite-surfing.  What I've noticed is daveS shows an over-reliance on his pet abbreviations, to the point that the few letters saved in typing is not worth losing the comprehension of a broader audience.  It is not necessary to abbreviate everything.  It doesn't hurt to spell the whole word.  Over-reliance on inside lingo and abbreviations shows poor communication skills.  Beyond that, daveS is mischaracterizing this single instance of momentary forgetfulness on my part to imply that I am somehow too stupid to comprehend a double-surface kite versus a single-surface kite, which is absurd given the fact that I am peripherally involved in the sport of hang-gliding and even recently repaired (sewn) a hangglider sail in the area where it transitions from dual-surface to single-surface.  My opinion is that this is a desperate and very weak attempt to publicly insult me, but I don't think daveS or anyone else actually believes that I cannot comprehend a double-surface or single-surface fabric wing or kite.   After all, it is pretty self-explanatory when you spell the whole word. So, what daveS has been saying about me is absurd, but it doesn't seem to stop him.  Google "SS kite" and see what you come up with.  I have, and up come many references to "Slingshot Sports", a stainless-steel kite-reel, the name of a ship - basically anything and everything EXCEPT daveS' pet abbreviation, which, for review, was "single-skin".  Or wait - was it "single-surface"?  Who cares?  My opinion is daveS should not expect everyone else to flawlessly remember all of his pet acronyms at all times, and should not abuse the fact that someone might momentarily forget what he means in one of his endless abbreviations, in an attempt to denigrate that person.  Meanwhile, we're still waiting for daveS to show us how the Wright brothers used a team of smiling grad students to invent the airplane.
    ===============

    daveS continues:  "The primary characteristic of a crank or crackpot, according to various psychological indexes, is to hold false technical beliefs in deep social isolation (paranoid anger is also being a common hallmark of the crank type)."

    *** Doug replies:  I'm not sure how this further attempt to insult is applicable to me, rather than the person saying it, but we can all see the line of reasoning degenerate into daveS' habitual personal-abuse-fest, which in this case amounts to him attempting to project a psychological self-evaluation of daveS onto me - thanks but no thanks daveS, save it for someone who cares.  You still have not shown the Wright Brothers using a team of grad students to invent the airplane.
    ===============

    daveS continues: "Doug has never been able to show that any of the growing phalanx of smiling AWE grad students are isolated crackpots, who in fact collectively honor the Bros as a role model."

    *** Doug replies: Nice try daveS but you are getting off-topic and still have not shown that the Wright Brothers invented the airplane by utilizing a team of grad students.
    ===============

    daveS goes on: "Only Doug habitually objects to aerospace academia's natural reliance on the Bros as the ideal role-model for AWE R&D."

    *** Doug replies:  No I object to (ahem) certain people (ahem) who endlessly attempt to associate themselves with the name of the Wright Brothers in lieu of generating any power from airborne wind.  The Wrights were great, and everyone knows it.  Meanwhile, back at the ranch, how much Airborne Wind Energy is daveS generating?  Repeating the name "Wright Brothers" year after year as a mantra does not seem to be getting any results for daveS.  In the time daveS has supposedly been pursuing airborne wind energy, without generating enough electricity to do really much of anything, the Wrights went from inventing the airplane, for which they actually had to design and build their own engine (!), to having their own airplane company with airplanes delivering passengers, mail, bombs, and bullets around the world.  That is one heck of a legacy to compare one's self with, when one has not succeeded in generating ANY significant amount of electricity in that same amount of time.  Meanwhile, to get back on topic,daveS has still not shown that the Wright Brothers utilized a phalanx of smiling grad students to invent the airplane.
    ===============

    daveS continues: "Let him try and beat them by the numbers (max-watts, max-altitude, etc.) if he thinks he knows better how to succeed."

    *** Doug replies:  Seems to me daveS was recently lamenting the continued lack of progress in AWE.  A rare moment of candor perhaps.  The "Professor Crackpot Syndrome" involves coming up with more expensive ways to generate wind energy, rather than less-expensive ways.  Success in wind energy involves lowering the cost of wind-generated electricity.   This message from Selsam Innovations is in fact being sent 100% by the power of wind energy, and part of that is coming from a very reliable, "set-it-and-forget-it" SuperTurbine(R) still spinning right outside my window right now, after years of reliable operation.  This wind-powered building, including my shop for pursuing AWE, has a negative electric bill for the past year.  I don't think there is any AWE "team" who can say that.
    ===============

    daveS culminates: "Future AWE academics would then praise Doug to the skies."

    *** Doug replies:  Well, I have been lucky enough that some have.  Even to this day, I seem to get more praise than I deserve, some of it in an almost religious fervor, from all over the world, which I find almost embarrassing.  It was nice at first, but I feel like I am not living up to it.  Too much of a good thing.  Like eating too much ice cream.  I am way past the hype factor.  It gets old after a fashion.  The way I see it, either someone "does it" or they don't.  And spending a lot of time with answering online insult-fests is a poor use of our time.

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19412 From: dave santos Date: 11/29/2015
    Subject: Re: Visit from Selsam on two topics
    At least we can all agree that the Wright Bros reached out eagerly to the leading academics of their day and they benefited greatly thereby. Similarly, we are blessed in AWE to count on strong academic collaboration. Doug rightly notes that in our time we have a phalanx of smiling grad-students involved, which the Wrights lacked.

    Doug's  third-party backyard turbine hardly counts as AWE. If Doug in fact has ever been "lucky enough" to be praised by aerospace academics for his AWE work, praised on a par with the Wrights, then let him provide adulatory references that identify the specific triumphs honored.

    --------------------

    Correction: "SS" is a standard term in modern kite design. Dave Culp taught it to me in 2006. Reinhart, Luc, and other SS developers use the term consistently, with no credit due to me. I helpfully defined the SS term for Doug when he asked what it meant in the context of AWES Forum use (not "stainless steel").



    On Saturday, November 28, 2015 8:53 PM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
    daveS said: "Its true that in the time of the Wrights, AE grad students were non-existent, but only because the Wrights had to invent modern aviation first! That's why I quoted Doug on "students" more broadly. It hardly matters if a good student is grad-level."

    *** Doug replies:  There were plenty of universities, engineering and physics programs, and grad students, at the turn of the 20th century.  My point was simple: that the Wrights invented the airplane without using large numbers of grad students.  daveS has not shown otherwise.
    ===============

    daveS goes on: "Doug overlooks that the Wright Bros themselves eagerly sought out the leading flight-science academics of their day for help (esp. Prof. Langley and Prof. Chanute), and were duly grateful for the help."

    *** Doug replies:  I did not overlook anything (sheesh, not that again!).  The Wright Brothers did not use a bunch of grad students to invent the airplane, and daveS has not shown that they did.  My point stands.
    ===============

    daveS goes on: "Its fitting that today's AWE grad students smile broadly as they invoke the spirit of the Bros (and newer champions like Wubbo)."

    *** Doug replies:  The Wright Brothers did not use a bunch of grad students to invent the airplane and daveS has not shown that they did.
    ===============

     daveS goes on: "When Reinhart, for example, invoked the Wrights on a TED stage, Doug objected on the insulting false grounds of "Professor Crackpot". Reinhart In fact displayed extreme knowledge and talent in developing FlySurfer's first SS wing. Doug, on the other hand, did not even know what "SS" meant, even long after."

    *** Doug replies:  daveS has made this same statement several times, (that I somehow did not understand what a "single-skin" or "single-surface" (stainless-steel?) kite is), going on for years now.  I have corrected him more than once, apparently to no avail.  He is remembering a single instance when I briefly forgot his meaning, using one of his many pet abbreviations, being more attuned to actual wind energy than daveS' pet abbreviations, in this case coming from kite-surfing.  What I've noticed is daveS shows an over-reliance on his pet abbreviations, to the point that the few letters saved in typing is not worth losing the comprehension of a broader audience.  It is not necessary to abbreviate everything.  It doesn't hurt to spell the whole word.  Over-reliance on inside lingo and abbreviations shows poor communication skills.  Beyond that, daveS is mischaracterizing this single instance of momentary forgetfulness on my part to imply that I am somehow too stupid to comprehend a double-surface kite versus a single-surface kite, which is absurd given the fact that I am peripherally involved in the sport of hang-gliding and even recently repaired (sewn) a hangglider sail in the area where it transitions from dual-surface to single-surface.  My opinion is that this is a desperate and very weak attempt to publicly insult me, but I don't think daveS or anyone else actually believes that I cannot comprehend a double-surface or single-surface fabric wing or kite.   After all, it is pretty self-explanatory when you spell the whole word. So, what daveS has been saying about me is absurd, but it doesn't seem to stop him.  Google "SS kite" and see what you come up with.  I have, and up come many references to "Slingshot Sports", a stainless-steel kite-reel, the name of a ship - basically anything and everything EXCEPT daveS' pet abbreviation, which, for review, was "single-skin".  Or wait - was it "single-surface"?  Who cares?  My opinion is daveS should not expect everyone else to flawlessly remember all of his pet acronyms at all times, and should not abuse the fact that someone might momentarily forget what he means in one of his endless abbreviations, in an attempt to denigrate that person.  Meanwhile, we're still waiting for daveS to show us how the Wright brothers used a team of smiling grad students to invent the airplane.
    ===============

    daveS continues:  "The primary characteristic of a crank or crackpot, according to various psychological indexes, is to hold false technical beliefs in deep social isolation (paranoid anger is also being a common hallmark of the crank type)."

    *** Doug replies:  I'm not sure how this further attempt to insult is applicable to me, rather than the person saying it, but we can all see the line of reasoning degenerate into daveS' habitual personal-abuse-fest, which in this case amounts to him attempting to project a psychological self-evaluation of daveS onto me - thanks but no thanks daveS, save it for someone who cares.  You still have not shown the Wright Brothers using a team of grad students to invent the airplane.
    ===============

    daveS continues: "Doug has never been able to show that any of the growing phalanx of smiling AWE grad students are isolated crackpots, who in fact collectively honor the Bros as a role model."

    *** Doug replies: Nice try daveS but you are getting off-topic and still have not shown that the Wright Brothers invented the airplane by utilizing a team of grad students.
    ===============

    daveS goes on: "Only Doug habitually objects to aerospace academia's natural reliance on the Bros as the ideal role-model for AWE R&D."

    *** Doug replies:  No I object to (ahem) certain people (ahem) who endlessly attempt to associate themselves with the name of the Wright Brothers in lieu of generating any power from airborne wind.  The Wrights were great, and everyone knows it.  Meanwhile, back at the ranch, how much Airborne Wind Energy is daveS generating?  Repeating the name "Wright Brothers" year after year as a mantra does not seem to be getting any results for daveS.  In the time daveS has supposedly been pursuing airborne wind energy, without generating enough electricity to do really much of anything, the Wrights went from inventing the airplane, for which they actually had to design and build their own engine (!), to having their own airplane company with airplanes delivering passengers, mail, bombs, and bullets around the world.  That is one heck of a legacy to compare one's self with, when one has not succeeded in generating ANY significant amount of electricity in that same amount of time.  Meanwhile, to get back on topic,daveS has still not shown that the Wright Brothers utilized a phalanx of smiling grad students to invent the airplane.
    ===============

    daveS continues: "Let him try and beat them by the numbers (max-watts, max-altitude, etc.) if he thinks he knows better how to succeed."

    *** Doug replies:  Seems to me daveS was recently lamenting the continued lack of progress in AWE.  A rare moment of candor perhaps.  The "Professor Crackpot Syndrome" involves coming up with more expensive ways to generate wind energy, rather than less-expensive ways.  Success in wind energy involves lowering the cost of wind-generated electricity.   This message from Selsam Innovations is in fact being sent 100% by the power of wind energy, and part of that is coming from a very reliable, "set-it-and-forget-it" SuperTurbine(R) still spinning right outside my window right now, after years of reliable operation.  This wind-powered building, including my shop for pursuing AWE, has a negative electric bill for the past year.  I don't think there is any AWE "team" who can say that.
    ===============

    daveS culminates: "Future AWE academics would then praise Doug to the skies."

    *** Doug replies:  Well, I have been lucky enough that some have.  Even to this day, I seem to get more praise than I deserve, some of it in an almost religious fervor, from all over the world, which I find almost embarrassing.  It was nice at first, but I feel like I am not living up to it.  Too much of a good thing.  Like eating too much ice cream.  I am way past the hype factor.  It gets old after a fashion.  The way I see it, either someone "does it" or they don't.  And spending a lot of time with answering online insult-fests is a poor use of our time.



    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19413 From: dave santos Date: 11/29/2015
    Subject: The overlooked AWES solution?
    The major contest in AWE may turn out to be whether full-automation or human-supervised auto-piloting will prove most economic. A majority of AWE ventures have presumed full-automation, but only human supervision is currently practical (a few small kPower AWES do all-modes safely, by passive-automation). Its essential that full-automation test against human-in-the-loop AWES operations. After all, humans still do many things better than robots, including flying kites.

    To master any well-developed branch of kite flying (incl. HGs and PGs) is to learn directly how hard-won and slow the highest skills develop. Like skilled sailors, only top masters are "reliable" kite flyers. The kite is a fine instrument demanding diligent practice. Sadly, few AWE players practice as intensely as desirable (flying all kinds of energy-kite concepts many hours, in all conditions). Successful AWE will be a grand culmination of kite tech pulled from many sources, so the surest safest plan is to master the most kite lore and gain the most varied experience possible. Eventual AWES full-automation may require skilled builder-operators to first fully explore the design space and empirically optimize over many years.

    Why does human skill still matter so vitally? We urgently need meaningful jobs over artificially imposed automation monopolies controlled by a few. Nowhere is this modern moral question more stark than in AWE. Wubbo rightly proposed we can choose unique AWE solutions to suit our deepest needs and desires, rather than be limited by a simplistic techno-determinism [Leuven 2011], but we better practice, practice, practice...
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19414 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/30/2015
    Subject: Re: Visit from Selsam on two topics
    This post is by Doug Selsam:

    daveS said: "Doug rightly notes that in our time we have a phalanx of smiling grad-students involved, which the Wrights lacked."

    *** Doug replies:  Thanks for admitting you were wrong.

    ====================
    daveS continues: "Correction: "SS" is a standard term in modern kite design. Dave Culp taught it to me in 2006."

    *** Doug replies: Dave Culp uses the term "SS" to refer to "speedsailing".  He has a website DCSS.org that means "Dave Culp Speed Sailing".
    Note: He is using dual-surface kites, not single-surface kite
    -------------------------
    ~ Doug Selsam
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19415 From: dave santos Date: 12/1/2015
    Subject: Re: Visit from Selsam on two topics
    Doug,

    You're Welcome, if you really have spotted some error. I am often wrong and don't mind admitting it, but don't understand what you say I am admitting here, given folks simply did not smile for the camera as much over a century ago.

    What exactly did I get wrong here (and why is it important) so I can agree with you?

    daveS



    On Monday, November 30, 2015 7:16 PM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
    This post is by Doug Selsam:

    daveS said: "Doug rightly notes that in our time we have a phalanx of smiling grad-students involved, which the Wrights lacked."

    *** Doug replies:  Thanks for admitting you were wrong.

    ====================
    daveS continues: "Correction: "SS" is a standard term in modern kite design. Dave Culp taught it to me in 2006."

    *** Doug replies: Dave Culp uses the term "SS" to refer to "speedsailing".  He has a website DCSS.org that means "Dave Culp Speed Sailing".
    Note: He is using dual-surface kites, not single-surface kite
    -------------------------
    ~ Doug Selsam