Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                          AWES 19160 to 19209 Page 277 of 440.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19160 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2015
Subject: Re: Makani AWEC2015 available now

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19161 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2015
Subject: Re: radial pattern AWE bah rings can't fly, It'll never happen

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19162 From: Rod Read Date: 9/29/2015
Subject: Re: Makani AWEC2015 available now

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19163 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2015
Subject: Re: Aerodynamic Scaling and Solidity

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19164 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2015
Subject: Re: KiteMill Prototype Testing (quad-rotor to kiteplane transition)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19165 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2015
Subject: Odd NASA Power Wing (NPW) safety flaw

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19166 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2015
Subject: Oceanvolt Generation System (suited for kiteboat AWES)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19167 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/29/2015
Subject: Re: Oceanvolt Generation System (suited for kiteboat AWES)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19168 From: Rod Read Date: 9/30/2015
Subject: Re: Aerodynamic Scaling and Solidity

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19169 From: Rod Read Date: 9/30/2015
Subject: Re: Odd NASA Power Wing (NPW) safety flaw

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19170 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/30/2015
Subject: Re: Inside Minesto

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19171 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2015
Subject: Re: Aerodynamic Scaling and Solidity

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19172 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2015
Subject: Re: Inside Minesto

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19173 From: Rod Read Date: 9/30/2015
Subject: Re: Aerodynamic Scaling and Solidity

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19174 From: Rod Read Date: 9/30/2015
Subject: list of design goals

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19175 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2015
Subject: Re: Odd NASA Power Wing (NPW) safety flaw

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19176 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2015
Subject: Re: Aerodynamic Scaling and Solidity

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19177 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2015
Subject: Re: list of design goals

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19178 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2015
Subject: AWES Pop-Gun Launching with Landing Capability?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19179 From: Rod Read Date: 9/30/2015
Subject: Re: list of design goals

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19180 From: Rod Read Date: 9/30/2015
Subject: Re: Aerodynamic Scaling and Solidity

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19181 From: Rod Read Date: 9/30/2015
Subject: Re: Odd NASA Power Wing (NPW) safety flaw

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19182 From: Rod Read Date: 9/30/2015
Subject: Re: AWES Pop-Gun Launching with Landing Capability?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19183 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2015
Subject: Re: list of design goals

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19184 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2015
Subject: Re: Aerodynamic Scaling and Solidity

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19185 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2015
Subject: Re: Odd NASA Power Wing (NPW) safety flaw

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19186 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2015
Subject: Re: AWES Pop-Gun Launching with Landing Capability?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19187 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/30/2015
Subject: High-Altitude Wind Energy - Visionary Outlook

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19188 From: Rod Read Date: 9/30/2015
Subject: Re: AWES Pop-Gun Launching with Landing Capability?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19189 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/1/2015
Subject: A Quiet Trip to the Ozone Hole

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19190 From: dave santos Date: 10/1/2015
Subject: Re: AWES Pop-Gun Launching with Landing Capability?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19191 From: dave santos Date: 10/1/2015
Subject: Re: High-Altitude Wind Energy - Visionary Outlook

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19192 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/1/2015
Subject: Re: A Quiet Trip to the Ozone Hole

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19193 From: Rod Read Date: 10/1/2015
Subject: Re: AWES Pop-Gun Launching with Landing Capability?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19194 From: Rod Read Date: 10/1/2015
Subject: Re: High-Altitude Wind Energy - Visionary Outlook

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19195 From: dave santos Date: 10/1/2015
Subject: Re: AWES Pop-Gun Launching with Landing Capability?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19196 From: dave santos Date: 10/1/2015
Subject: Re: High-Altitude Wind Energy - Visionary Outlook

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19197 From: Rod Read Date: 10/1/2015
Subject: Re: A Quiet Trip to the Ozone Hole

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19198 From: Rod Read Date: 10/1/2015
Subject: Re: AWES Pop-Gun Launching with Landing Capability?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19199 From: dave santos Date: 10/1/2015
Subject: Re: AWES Pop-Gun Launching with Landing Capability?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19200 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/1/2015
Subject: U. S. Hawks forum topic

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19201 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/2/2015
Subject: Tachometer

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19202 From: dave santos Date: 10/2/2015
Subject: Re: Tachometer

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19203 From: dave santos Date: 10/2/2015
Subject: Makani delayed in Hawaii

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19204 From: dave santos Date: 10/2/2015
Subject: Disposable Ship model for kite structure

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19205 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/2/2015
Subject: Re: Disposable Ship model for kite structure

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19206 From: dave santos Date: 10/3/2015
Subject: NASA Power Wing in 1986 pop-culture

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19207 From: dave santos Date: 10/4/2015
Subject: Tale of Two SS Power Kite Variants

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19208 From: dave santos Date: 10/4/2015
Subject: M600 under Pilot-Lift Concept

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19209 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/5/2015
Subject: Saying in languages: "practical kite system" or the like?



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19160 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2015
Subject: Re: Makani AWEC2015 available now
Rod wrote: "What was all the fuss about?  Well done to Damon and Roland for getting the Makani Damon presentation on line at last."

Response: The "fuss" was once again over willfully delayed access to AWE information by conference insiders, which renewed old complaints (The same inner circles also decide for free access to the AWE book series to be delayed). The opinion that such easily avoided delay is somehow "well done" is simply a lower standard than Open AWE's real-time sharing ethos.

I was disappointed that the video of M600 hover was not run (to confirm that the suspension lines actually went slack, and see how solid the hover was). With the tail added, and tether extended, the vertical loading will be far higher, and overheating a likely issue. The economic comparisons seemed at odds with Fort's 2010 predictions, and the closing off of architectural exploration is very risky for such a well funded program. If the M600 fails to operate economically, they seem to have no Plan B.



On Tuesday, September 29, 2015 2:53 AM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
What was all the fuss about?
Well done to Damon and Roland for getting the Makani Damon presentation on line at last.
https://collegerama.tudelft.nl/Mediasite/Play/639f1661d28e483cb75a9a8bdedce6f11d

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19161 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2015
Subject: Re: radial pattern AWE bah rings can't fly, It'll never happen
The informed view is that this marginal concept space (large E-VTOL) barely flies, and does not promise to scale greatly, based as it is on rigid structure and given applicable engineering scaling laws. Claims for "greenness" are very relative. This is still a rather polluting toy, if one accounts the entire materials cycle of batteries, composite structure, etc..

It seems these facts can only slowly give way in asymptotic progress toward hard scaling limits and truly sustainable culture.



On Tuesday, September 29, 2015 7:24 AM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19162 From: Rod Read Date: 9/29/2015
Subject: Re: Makani AWEC2015 available now

Don't worry about poor Makani, I offered that they can make Daisies!

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19163 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2015
Subject: Re: Aerodynamic Scaling and Solidity
The point is that lowered Wing-Loading* is operationally critical to large aero-devices in key operational modes (like a tall-ship in storm or an airliner landing). The idea that a "faster sleeker wing" simply "supercede(s)" this need, in the context of scaling up, without any regard for variable solidity capability, is not borne out in the similarity cases, and probably not in AWE either.

------------------
* as specifcally defined in aeronautics



On Tuesday, September 29, 2015 1:27 AM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Yes, and your point is?


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19164 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2015
Subject: Re: KiteMill Prototype Testing (quad-rotor to kiteplane transition)
Pointing out the low RPM of the Daisy concept, as a known trade-off, only seems like "usual" "tripe" in disregarding the ideal of driving generators directly at optimal higher RPMs. Please start a new topic if the KiteMill topic is no longer being referenced. Off-topic complaining may be more the usual tripe that invoking low angular velocity.

Adding here that Kitemill's quad-rotor method suffers from excess mass aloft in power generating phase, especially by reduced low-end performance in light wind.



On Tuesday, September 29, 2015 1:24 AM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Dave wrote some tripe as regular recently
Since the new standard is Google agrees
In physics, the angular velocity is defined as the rate of change of angular displacement and is a vector quantity (more precisely, a pseudovector) which specifies the angular speed (rotational speed) of an object and the axis about which the object is rotating.
Please don't ignore the and the axis part of that statement


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19165 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2015
Subject: Odd NASA Power Wing (NPW) safety flaw
Its intuitive to presume that an NPW fully kills by letting one line go while holding on to the remaining line, and this usually does kill the wing ~enough~, but in flying a 7m2 NPW on long lines in a fresh breeze yesterday, I found that the side panel bridled from the retained line remained fired up and caused trouble. The risk compounds in stronger winds with larger kites. This explains why a nose kill line is added to larger NPWs, since the two-line-to-one-line kill-defect seems intractable otherwise.

Its hard to overstate how wild and dangerous large power kites are, and how careful AWES field developers must be. This was a case of wittingly cutting corners working with a smaller kite, to learn lessons that might have proved fatal if belatedly discovered in larger kite experiments. kPower flew its 32m2 NPW for several sessions without noticing the hazard. Other soft power kite types (quad line foils, three-line OLs) are free of this odd NPW issue.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19166 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2015
Subject: Oceanvolt Generation System (suited for kiteboat AWES)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19167 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/29/2015
Subject: Re: Oceanvolt Generation System (suited for kiteboat AWES)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19168 From: Rod Read Date: 9/30/2015
Subject: Re: Aerodynamic Scaling and Solidity
A faster sleeker wing changes it's solidity, the projection of surface area to oncoming wind
by AoA change.
A proper, better engineered new style windmill with way better performance doesn't reef it's wing does it Dave?
If a jumbo could tilt it's wing at the root, it wouldn't need to extend wing surface area at lower speed with a horizontal fuselage.


Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19169 From: Rod Read Date: 9/30/2015
Subject: Re: Odd NASA Power Wing (NPW) safety flaw
A similar thing happens with 2 line foils

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19170 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/30/2015
Subject: Re: Inside Minesto
... going public: 

Minesto to list on NASDAQ
Swedish marine developer Minesto is to list on NASDAQ Stockholm to raise up to €11.8m to finance the commercialisation of its Deep Green tidal kite ...
Google PlusFacebookTwitterFlag as irrelevant



Maritime Journal
More funding for Minesto tidal power plant
Sweden-based Minesto has been granted €3.5m in funding by KIC InnoEnergy to commercialise its tidal power plant, Deep Green, and ensure ...
Google PlusFacebookTwitterFlag as irrelevant



Business Green
Minesto to launch IPO for tidal kite technology
Swedish marine power company Minesto is seeking to raise around €10m through an initial public offering (IPO), which it will use to help ..
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19171 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2015
Subject: Re: Aerodynamic Scaling and Solidity
Yes, a modern HAWT feathers its blades to reduce solidity, but this is not what transport wings do by slats and flaps. The differences are instructive. The transport needs high-drag to slow down for landing and cannot economically carry a massive rotating wing-root mechanism. There is no standard transport that merely rotates a sleek wing for all operational modes, even if very marginally feasible. The operational modes are not even comparable between the variable pitch HAWT blade and the aircraft wing (excepting propellers).

By contrast, a pro kite quiver covers about one whole order-of-magnitude planform area variation, and traditional ship sail changing and furling accomplishes a similar ratio. Variable pitch is relegated to "depower" these wings within their specific velocity ranges, not replace the quiver outright. Note that the Rev kite line varies sail-panel porosity (and frames) to accomplish precision flight across all flying conditions. Our not very "sleek" kite wing meshes of "rag and string" will tend to follow the similar operational methods, but we are open for testing any one-sleek-wing solution.



On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 12:39 AM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
A faster sleeker wing changes it's solidity, the projection of surface area to oncoming wind
by AoA change.
A proper, better engineered new style windmill with way better performance doesn't reef it's wing does it Dave?
If a jumbo could tilt it's wing at the root, it wouldn't need to extend wing surface area at lower speed with a horizontal fuselage.


Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19172 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2015
Subject: Re: Inside Minesto
Wow, this seems to be the first public offering (on a major exchange) of any kite energy* company. Minesto may be able to parlay this advantage into other design spaces to lead the kite energy world, rather than risk everything on its current single architecture persisting in competition.

--------

* An underwater kite design also potentially suited to be towed by kites aloft.



On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 7:26 AM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
... going public: 

Minesto to list on NASDAQ
Swedish marine developer Minesto is to list on NASDAQ Stockholm to raise up to €11.8m to finance the commercialisation of its Deep Green tidal kite ...
Google PlusFacebookTwitterFlag as irrelevant



Maritime Journal
More funding for Minesto tidal power plant
Sweden-based Minesto has been granted €3.5m in funding by KIC InnoEnergy to commercialise its tidal power plant, Deep Green, and ensure ...
Google PlusFacebookTwitterFlag as irrelevant



Business Green
Minesto to launch IPO for tidal kite technology
Swedish marine power company Minesto is seeking to raise around €10m through an initial public offering (IPO), which it will use to help ..
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19173 From: Rod Read Date: 9/30/2015
Subject: Re: Aerodynamic Scaling and Solidity
There is no standard transport that merely rotates a sleek wing for all operational modes
Helicopter?

Flysurfer triple depower mode.


Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19174 From: Rod Read Date: 9/30/2015
Subject: list of design goals
If you want to design an AWES....What are your ideal design goals?

I'm explaining I do in AWE whilst rewriting my submission for the new AWES book.
This can become a useful list ... we've done this already by some other means surely.
Please expand on the following start list items otherwise... (Apologies if this looks like me being lazy... but some representation of open systems needs poked into the public science eye.
Under special request you can see the first draft which was sent back... unfinished reading and not understood.... seems sad really considering I know 4 yr old kids who understand the system operation.

1.   Open Design: AWES are powerful and dangerous by nature. The viability of certification standards [7] and AWES insurance availability will depend upon openly described design standards [8].

2.   Safety: Failsafe use, component monitoring and fatigue analysis [13].

3.   Continuous power output: Phased output systems need power conditioning or multiple deployment considerations [1].

4.   Financeable: Capex is minimized, with a mature maintenance supply chain [9].

5.   Capacity factor maximization [10]: Lowest cut in speed, highest availability and reliability. Performance optimized to conditions.

6.   Land use efficiency: Closely packing array systems are more efficient [11].

7.   Simplicity for scalability: Simple repeatable unit modular array scalable [12]

8.   Automated or minimized handling demands in all modes.

9.   Cheap to manufacture and commission [14].

10. Control is available, redundant and cheap.

11.Ground access restriction is minimal [11].

12.Airborne weight is minimized for safety, system responsiveness, and energy expenditure requirements in altitude maintenance mode. W&I preferences.

13.Aeroelastic stability has to be considered for viable a scaling [14].

14.Tests must be open to verification and validation [14].

15.Address full lifecycle and environmental impacts [14].

16.Lifting kite architectures (made specifically for provision of line lifting), must be stable. This stipulation is a W&I preferece.

17.Generating kite surfaces should be run for continual optimal power conversion.

18.Material placement should be matched to expected forces on every scale [15].

19. 

20. 

21. 

22. 

23. 

24.continuous rotary kite motion transfer

 

 

 

 

 

1 Airborne Wind Energy Ahrens, Uwe, Diehl, Moritz, Schmehl, Roland

2 www.windswept-and-interesting.co.uk

3 Airborne Wind Energy Systems: A review of the technologies Antonello Cherubini, Andrea Papini, Rocco Vertechy, Marco Fontana

4 http://www.oshwa.org/

5 Navigating complex challenges: creative competencies for contemporary leadership

David Magellan Horth & Charles J. Palus

6 http://cleantechnica.com/2014/03/03/airborne-wind-energy-platypuses-instead-cheetahs/

7 http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/granule/FR-2011-12-07/2011-31430

8 http://www.kpowertechnology.com/#!taco-10/c20rj

9 How to Insure Your Tidal Array? Vital perspectives from an insurance broker

Snap shot interview: Michael Bullock, Director, Renewable Risk Advisers

10 Economics of Pumping Kite Generators

Jannis Heilmann, Corey Houle

11.  P. Benhaïem : Land and Space Used, Airborne Wind Energy Conference 2013, Book of abstracts p.59   http://www.awec2013.de/pdfs/AWEC_2013_BoA.pdf

12 J. Beaujean: Harvesting High Wind Energy SkySails for Wind Turbines http://www.energykitesystems.net/Beaujean/SkySailsforWindTurbines2012.pdf

13https://collegerama.tudelft.nl/Mediasite/Play/639f1661d28e483cb75a9a8bdedce6f11d Makani

14 Engineering Challenges of Airborne Wind Technology Dr. Fort Felker

15 IUTAM Symposium on Topological Design Optimization of Structures, Machines ...

 edited by Martin Philip Bendsoe, Niels Olhoff, Ole Sigmund

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19175 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2015
Subject: Re: Odd NASA Power Wing (NPW) safety flaw
True, but most two-line foils are small toys (<2m2) rather than large power kites, so the safety risk mostly remains low. Another factor is perceptual; that small kites can vary sub-states so fast that we tend not to see and understand effects that large kites clearly reveal more slowly. Its also less probable that one would need to kill a small two-line kite deliberately, by releasing one line, rather than just hold the pull until it soon fouls itself dead.

If there are specific two-line foil types of large size to warn about, it would be nice to note them.



On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 12:41 AM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
A similar thing happens with 2 line foils

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19176 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2015
Subject: Re: Aerodynamic Scaling and Solidity
Rod,

The hobbyist quoting standard is not meeting Joe's criteria of clarity. At least use quote marks.

The helicopter is a good example of complex control of a sleek wing. The collective pitch requirement is not "mer(e) rotat(ion)" of the wings. The classic Flysurfer is a good example of the large end of a pro kite quiver. No matter how much depower, the pro still switches to smaller kites in higher wind.

Further confounding any simplistic conclusions, kite short-line and long-line sets imply locally reversed assumptions about solidity. If only real-world aerodynamics was only a matter of choosing the sleekest wing, we would not need experts,

daveS



On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 10:32 AM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
There is no standard transport that merely rotates a sleek wing for all operational modes
Helicopter?

Flysurfer triple depower mode.


Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19177 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2015
Subject: Re: list of design goals
RAD (Rapid AWE Development) is the explicit design goal the AWES Forum was intended to support, based on historic urgency to develop new energy. The specific methods include real-time open-knowledge toward large-scale high-COTS high-TRL KIS designs, with lots of supporting small-scale DIY experiments.

I hope you won't characterize this serious Open-AWE path as merely hobbyist-driven (like Make Magazine audience demographic). What exactly is your submission thesis? (a laundry-list is not a thesis)



On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 10:35 AM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
If you want to design an AWES....What are your ideal design goals?

I'm explaining I do in AWE whilst rewriting my submission for the new AWES book.
This can become a useful list ... we've done this already by some other means surely.
Please expand on the following start list items otherwise... (Apologies if this looks like me being lazy... but some representation of open systems needs poked into the public science eye.
Under special request you can see the first draft which was sent back... unfinished reading and not understood.... seems sad really considering I know 4 yr old kids who understand the system operation.
1.   Open Design: AWES are powerful and dangerous by nature. The viability of certification standards [7] and AWES insurance availability will depend upon openly described design standards [8].
2.   Safety: Failsafe use, component monitoring and fatigue analysis [13].
3.   Continuous power output: Phased output systems need power conditioning or multiple deployment considerations [1].
4.   Financeable: Capex is minimized, with a mature maintenance supply chain [9].
5.   Capacity factor maximization [10]: Lowest cut in speed, highest availability and reliability. Performance optimized to conditions.
6.   Land use efficiency: Closely packing array systems are more efficient [11].
7.   Simplicity for scalability: Simple repeatable unit modular array scalable [12]
8.   Automated or minimized handling demands in all modes.
9.   Cheap to manufacture and commission [14].
10. Control is available, redundant and cheap.
11.Ground access restriction is minimal [11].
12.Airborne weight is minimized for safety, system responsiveness, and energy expenditure requirements in altitude maintenance mode. W&I preferences.
13.Aeroelastic stability has to be considered for viable a scaling [14].
14.Tests must be open to verification and validation [14].
15.Address full lifecycle and environmental impacts [14].
16.Lifting kite architectures (made specifically for provision of line lifting), must be stable. This stipulation is a W&I preferece.
17.Generating kite surfaces should be run for continual optimal power conversion.
18.Material placement should be matched to expected forces on every scale [15].
19. 
20. 
21. 
22. 
23. 
24.continuous rotary kite motion transfer
 
 
 
 
 
1 Airborne Wind Energy Ahrens, Uwe, Diehl, Moritz, Schmehl, Roland
2 www.windswept-and-interesting.co.uk
3 Airborne Wind Energy Systems: A review of the technologies Antonello Cherubini, Andrea Papini, Rocco Vertechy, Marco Fontana
4 http://www.oshwa.org/
5 Navigating complex challenges: creative competencies for contemporary leadership
David Magellan Horth & Charles J. Palus
6 http://cleantechnica.com/2014/03/03/airborne-wind-energy-platypuses-instead-cheetahs/
7 http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/granule/FR-2011-12-07/2011-31430
8 http://www.kpowertechnology.com/#!taco-10/c20rj
9 How to Insure Your Tidal Array? Vital perspectives from an insurance broker
Snap shot interview: Michael Bullock, Director, Renewable Risk Advisers
10 Economics of Pumping Kite Generators
Jannis Heilmann, Corey Houle
11.  P. Benhaïem : Land and Space Used, Airborne Wind Energy Conference 2013, Book of abstracts p.59   http://www.awec2013.de/pdfs/AWEC_2013_BoA.pdf
12 J. Beaujean: Harvesting High Wind Energy SkySails for Wind Turbines http://www.energykitesystems.net/Beaujean/SkySailsforWindTurbines2012.pdf
13https://collegerama.tudelft.nl/Mediasite/Play/639f1661d28e483cb75a9a8bdedce6f11d Makani
14 Engineering Challenges of Airborne Wind Technology Dr. Fort Felker
15 IUTAM Symposium on Topological Design Optimization of Structures, Machines ...
 edited by Martin Philip Bendsoe, Niels Olhoff, Ole Sigmund
Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19178 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2015
Subject: AWES Pop-Gun Launching with Landing Capability?
Makani's Wing3 launched from a pop-gun (air-cannon), but the method was just a temporary expedient. Moritz's sling-shot carousel is another AWES ballistic-launch case that adds landing-mode capability.

Its possible that the pop-gun could also be used for landing, but the piston element should return right back into the air-cannon barrel. The cannon would then act as an air-shock (decelerator). The readiest trick is for the kiteline to guide the piston back into the barrel, with the reel even actually inside the pressure chamber. Odd as it may seem, this might work rather well. Note fighter-bomber steam-catapult launch from aircraft carriers as a scale-valdating similarity case.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19179 From: Rod Read Date: 9/30/2015
Subject: Re: list of design goals

So support RAD in real time and stop cowering behind half baked excuses for professional progress. Contribute some true effort Dave !
What would anyone's approach matter whether or not they were hobbyist... It's the engineering that counts.
You can Engineer the real world social situation and engage with the pro book for a change.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19180 From: Rod Read Date: 9/30/2015
Subject: Re: Aerodynamic Scaling and Solidity

So we both agree, but I think you still want an argument about something...?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19181 From: Rod Read Date: 9/30/2015
Subject: Re: Odd NASA Power Wing (NPW) safety flaw

Unless of course 500 x small 2 line kites all lost left at the same time...  You keep holding them if you like. Good luck!

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19182 From: Rod Read Date: 9/30/2015
Subject: Re: AWES Pop-Gun Launching with Landing Capability?

Draw that would you.? Please.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19183 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2015
Subject: Re: list of design goals
Rod,

My version of "support(ing) RAD in real time" does not depend on Roland's book. In fact, I informed Roland that he would have to help John Oyebanji be allowed a representative role (like that of Guido and PJ) in the entrenched North EU conference deciding circle in order for me to offer a submission. Otherwise I will just post to the AWES Forum without the delay of Springer limited-access publication. It is not "cowering" to defend JohnO.

If instead a hobbyist submits RAD concepts for Roland's book, that's pro enough to my exacting standard, but for a hobbyist to command pros seems more like fantasy,

daveS



On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 1:04 PM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
So support RAD in real time and stop cowering behind half baked excuses for professional progress. Contribute some true effort Dave !
What would anyone's approach matter whether or not they were hobbyist... It's the engineering that counts.
You can Engineer the real world social situation and engage with the pro book for a change.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19184 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2015
Subject: Re: Aerodynamic Scaling and Solidity
No, just stay on topic.



On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 1:06 PM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
So we both agree, but I think you still want an argument about something...?


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19185 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2015
Subject: Re: Odd NASA Power Wing (NPW) safety flaw
The topic remains as given, about a specific large NPW issue.



On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 1:08 PM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Unless of course 500 x small 2 line kites all lost left at the same time...  You keep holding them if you like. Good luck!


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19186 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2015
Subject: Re: AWES Pop-Gun Launching with Landing Capability?
Just imagine a Wing3 pop-gun launch video played in reverse, for the basic idea. Hire a local artist to draw it, if still needed.



On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 1:09 PM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Draw that would you.? Please.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19187 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/30/2015
Subject: High-Altitude Wind Energy - Visionary Outlook
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19188 From: Rod Read Date: 9/30/2015
Subject: Re: AWES Pop-Gun Launching with Landing Capability?
I don't need to draw it because the exact same thing can't happen in reverse Dave

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19189 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/1/2015
Subject: A Quiet Trip to the Ozone Hole

A Quiet Trip to the Ozone Hole


==========================

Notice the potential site for AWES .....
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19190 From: dave santos Date: 10/1/2015
Subject: Re: AWES Pop-Gun Launching with Landing Capability?
Its not "the exact same thing in reverse", since popgun reversal itself is a big difference. In physics many processes are reversible, and engineers apply such reversibility often (like silicon acting bi-directionally in LED <=  
I don't need to draw it because the exact same thing can't happen in reverse Dave

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19191 From: dave santos Date: 10/1/2015
Subject: Re: High-Altitude Wind Energy - Visionary Outlook
Noting the AWE debut of major news media group PR Newswire, via this report offering, with strong prospects for ongoing AWE news distribution-



 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19192 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/1/2015
Subject: Re: A Quiet Trip to the Ozone Hole

Perlan Project: Home

www.perlanproject.org/


OUR MISSION. The Perlan 2 will fly to 90,000 feet at the edge of space to explore the science of giant mountain waves that help create the ozone hole and ...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19193 From: Rod Read Date: 10/1/2015
Subject: Re: AWES Pop-Gun Launching with Landing Capability?

No.
The tether is not inside the tube is it?
If this was reversible then guns would be fitted with an ooops I accidentally shot the wrong person let's suck the bullet back button.
That Iraqi super gun...  Was that a plot to suck satellites from orbit Dave?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19194 From: Rod Read Date: 10/1/2015
Subject: Re: High-Altitude Wind Energy - Visionary Outlook

And is the content of the paid for report of any use to anyone other than its sponsor?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19195 From: dave santos Date: 10/1/2015
Subject: Re: AWES Pop-Gun Launching with Landing Capability?
The tether does not have to be in the tube, although it might serve for a KIS AWES hack*. One could also create a more complex guidance basis. The concept of re-docking with an air-cannon in its simplest case, of the toy pop-gun, does in fact contain the tether in the tube, and the action is (manually) reversed. 

The concept in simple form is plausible enough to post in an AWES concept, given the Makani partial-case. Let "suck(ing) satellites" with "that Iraqi super gun" represent a less reasonable standard of a non-AWES concept.

------
* Vari-drogue action could help slow the landing approach, as needed.





On Thursday, October 1, 2015 11:21 AM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
No.
The tether is not inside the tube is it?
If this was reversible then guns would be fitted with an ooops I accidentally shot the wrong person let's suck the bullet back button.
That Iraqi super gun...  Was that a plot to suck satellites from orbit Dave?


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19196 From: dave santos Date: 10/1/2015
Subject: Re: High-Altitude Wind Energy - Visionary Outlook
Its obviously intended non-buyers not use the report, but there is hope. Generally we ask an AWE author behind a paywall to let us read the content unpaid. Once we read it, we can judge its useful potential better.

What we are also seeing here is an instance of an ongoing transitions in journalism, in the form of a hybrid offering between an old news service and a freelancer in the Net Age.



On Thursday, October 1, 2015 11:22 AM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
And is the content of the paid for report of any use to anyone other than its sponsor?


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19197 From: Rod Read Date: 10/1/2015
Subject: Re: A Quiet Trip to the Ozone Hole
So... If we built a huge polar icecap sized kite... and instead of building a rail...
just used the kite to spin the ice sheet around lie https://www.facebook.com/Break/videos/10153586016862792/
Wilst the lines of the kite rotate around the pole... get this they're running around a massive magnet...
So if we lift a whole load of coils of wire with our kite and keep it spinning through the earths own magnetic field. voila.
We can accelerate the melting of the icecap! oh flip

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19198 From: Rod Read Date: 10/1/2015
Subject: Re: AWES Pop-Gun Launching with Landing Capability?
This seem odd to anyone else.
This thread started after you watched the Makani presentation saying that pop gun launch wouldn't scale.
And now Dave Santos is saying Pop gun Launch will scale really well. And it's reversible.
What's going on?

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19199 From: dave santos Date: 10/1/2015
Subject: Re: AWES Pop-Gun Launching with Landing Capability?
The method worked for Makani. Its not clear why Damon claims it cannot scale, nor does he offer an upper limit. I am not claiming it will scale any better than the similarity cases, and propose testing to settle doubts. Proposing this can work in reverse was merely intended as building logically on the launch method. The concept was offered neutrally, but my personal bias is strongly against ballistic launch methods generally, in favor of winch or tow launch.

What is "odd" to me are many Makani pronouncements about scaling (10km and M5 AWES, for examples). Your supergun similarity case does in fact contradict Damon's suggestion that Wing3 was near a popgun launch method scaling limit. Superguns could in principle fire emergency AWES into place, but it seems like nice niche app, rather than distilled RAD. Still, we turned over this rock and looked...



On Thursday, October 1, 2015 12:40 PM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
This seem odd to anyone else.
This thread started after you watched the Makani presentation saying that pop gun launch wouldn't scale.
And now Dave Santos is saying Pop gun Launch will scale really well. And it's reversible.
What's going on?

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19200 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/1/2015
Subject: U. S. Hawks forum topic

US Hawks Hang Gliding Association • View topic - Power from kites
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19201 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/2/2015
Subject: Tachometer

Tachometers

Tachometer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Types?

Uses in AWE?

COTS suppliers?

====================


Logging?

What did THAT change do to the cycle rate?

Unloaded rate profile?

Loaded rate profile? 

====================

Tachometer :Different types with examples and their uses

====================

Tachometers/Stroboscopes: Portable Tachometers | Monarch Instrument

=====================


Hertz

 Hertz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

======================


Revolutions per minute - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


=======================
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19202 From: dave santos Date: 10/2/2015
Subject: Re: Tachometer
The current common situation in power kiting where primitive tachometry figures is in looping a multi-line kite without a swivel, deliberately or not. One learns to keep track of the looping direction and count revolutions in order to best unwind the lines and recover the starting state.

Counting revolutions and noting direction is not the standard tachometry of measuring RPM, but its closely related. There should be a more precise term than "tachometer" for an instrument specifically to monitor rotation direction and count revolutions ("odometer" and "rotometer" do not quite fit either).



On Friday, October 2, 2015 8:06 AM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Tachometers

Types?
Uses in AWE?
COTS suppliers?
====================

Logging?
What did THAT change do to the cycle rate?
Unloaded rate profile?
Loaded rate profile? 
====================
====================
=====================

Hertz
======================


=======================
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19203 From: dave santos Date: 10/2/2015
Subject: Makani delayed in Hawaii
Makani is experiencing expected delays* in beginning flight testing of the M600 in the Big Island-


----------------
* Common in complex aerospace R&D, and especially predicted for the M600, given its particular technical challenges.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19204 From: dave santos Date: 10/2/2015
Subject: Disposable Ship model for kite structure
Just as Mothra's long ropes, fifty tarps, and hundreds of soft-shackles were quickly and cheaply assembled and disassembled into follow on kite platforms, large wooden sailing ships were once thrown together even for just a single voyage to a deliberate break-up destination. In a similar way, large multi-unit kites could be flown long distances to be broken down into discrete functional units for remote distribution-
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19205 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/2/2015
Subject: Re: Disposable Ship model for kite structure
  • Disposable kite system
  • Disposable AWES
  • One-way kite systems
  • One-way AWES
  • Pack up the AWES system; ship the system back to starting point; repeat generation. 
  • One-session kite system. 
  • One-session AWES. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19206 From: dave santos Date: 10/3/2015
Subject: NASA Power Wing in 1986 pop-culture
The NASA Power Wing was developed in the 1960s and remains a standard soft-kite design in kite sport and AWE R&D niches. In 1986 a comedic sci-fi B-movie, Short Circuit, featured a robotic AI briefly featured flying under an NPW. Towed flight and cutaway occur. The movie was shot on the Lower Columbia River (Astoria, Oregon) very close to KiteLab Ilwaco, WSIKF, and WKM. A couple of hours' drive upriver is the Columbia Gorge, the very cradle of modern kitesurfing. NPWs are rather rare in the wider world. The connections here run deeper than mere coincidence. Thirty years later, kPower currently tests NPWs in the misty distance of several of the '86 movie shots (even including a few frames of the NPW sequence)-
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19207 From: dave santos Date: 10/4/2015
Subject: Tale of Two SS Power Kite Variants
The SS Power Kite DIY trend is evolving along higher AR lines than the old NPW, with refined and simplified variants advancing the state-of-the-art-
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19208 From: dave santos Date: 10/4/2015
Subject: M600 under Pilot-Lift Concept
Its long been proposed on the AWES Forum that teams like Makani (and Ampyx) can mostly eliminate crashing high-complexity kiteplane prototypes by adopting pilot-lifter kites as a support and back-up system. Corwin was open to the idea at Leuven in 2011, but died tragically the next year. His successors have been silent on the engineering option, but resort to gin-pole suspension for low perch testing. On the other hand, a pilot-kite basis easily operates above the M600's full working altitude, well capable of sparing precious initial prototypes excessive risk of crashing. Pilot-lift can cover active-control failures and help the M600 lift its conductive cable to reach working altitude with less overheating.

Delays in M600 flight testing signal the predicted scaling difficulties that should drive Makani engineers to reconsider low-complexity pilot-lift as a tool. Long term the question becomes whether to eliminate pilot-lift/AWT combos as unnecessary, or if such modular components properly work together in a mature perfected AWES architecture. kPower envisions dense arrays of AWTs hosted under megascale lifting networks (and many other lifting apps). kPower is the most experienced AWE team in operating AWTs of many kinds under pilot-kites, from small to large, with no major mishaps in eight years of testing. 

Current kPower R&D integrating multiple 22m2 Peter Lynn pilot-lifters into a larger lifting units can compose a kite matched to the M600. Aggregated bungee-jumping cords would provide the desirable elastic buffer section between pilot-lift and the aerobatic kiteplane. A system suited to boost and protect an M600 would cost under one-hundred-thousand USD, while almost certainly saving millions in lost AWT prototype momentum. Whatever happens with the M600, triumph or fiasco, will be exciting.

Open-AWE_IP-Pool
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 19209 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/5/2015
Subject: Saying in languages: "practical kite system" or the like?

In each language of the world, what will be the word or phrase that describes a kite system dedicated to doing work of practical nature? Practical kite, working kite, energy kite, AWES, ...      Will there evolve short expressions, or will long descriptive phrases ever be used?   An object built of essential parts ( anchor set, tether set, wing set) that works to fulfill a practical purpose (generate electricity, pull objects, lift objects, ...) will be called something in each practical language; those words or phrases in the languages are invited to be posted in this topic thread.


tags: 

How to say "AWES" in languages      ?

How do you say energy kite in your language   ?

How do you say purposeful kite system in your language?

How do you say "working kite" in your language?

How do you say "practical kite system" in your language?