Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                          AWES 18551 to 18600 Page 265 of 440.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18551 From: Rod Read Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Spin Bol Video

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18552 From: Rod Read Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Ditch the Kite and Take Flight With Ready-To-Go Drones!

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18553 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Spin Bol Video

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18554 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Spin Bol Video

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18555 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Spin Bol Video

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18556 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Ditch the Kite and Take Flight With Ready-To-Go Drones!

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18557 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Spin Bol Video

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18558 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Spin Bol Video

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18559 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18560 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Spin Bol Video

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18561 From: dougselsam Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Spin Bol Video

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18562 From: dougselsam Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Kite Enthalpy (Thermodynamics)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18563 From: Rod Read Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18564 From: Rod Read Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Ditch the Kite and Take Flight With Ready-To-Go Drones!

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18565 From: Rod Read Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Kite Enthalpy (Thermodynamics)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18566 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Spin Bol Video

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18567 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18568 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Ditch the Kite and Take Flight With Ready-To-Go Drones!

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18569 From: Rod Read Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18570 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Spin Bol Video

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18571 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Kite Enthalpy (Thermodynamics)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18572 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18573 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Spin Bol Video

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18574 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18575 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Kite Enthalpy (Thermodynamics)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18576 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18577 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Kite Enthalpy (Thermodynamics)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18578 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18579 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Kite Enthalpy (Thermodynamics)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18580 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18581 From: dougselsam Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18582 From: dougselsam Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18583 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18584 From: dougselsam Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18585 From: dave santos Date: 7/30/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18586 From: dougselsam Date: 7/30/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18587 From: dougselsam Date: 7/30/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18588 From: dave santos Date: 7/30/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18589 From: dave santos Date: 7/30/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18590 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/30/2015
Subject: Mechanical Kites by Zhang

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18591 From: dougselsam Date: 7/30/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18592 From: dougselsam Date: 7/30/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18593 From: dougselsam Date: 7/30/2015
Subject: Re: Mechanical Kites by Zhang

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18594 From: dave santos Date: 7/30/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18595 From: dave santos Date: 7/30/2015
Subject: Re: Mechanical Kites by Zhang

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18596 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/30/2015
Subject: Weifang - The Kingdom of Kites. China AWE?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18597 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/30/2015
Subject: Interlude challenge

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18598 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/30/2015
Subject: Re: Interlude challenge

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18599 From: Rod Read Date: 7/31/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18600 From: dave santos Date: 7/31/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18551 From: Rod Read Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Spin Bol Video

I suppose.... Especially as you consider how much a large mainsail and a large genoa overlap without interruption.

I've tried using more than 3 kite "blades" on older rotors. 4 was my original first working version.

Thing is that we are going into higher stronger winds. I'm thinking sharp long fast blades (rigid or ram or single skin) will perform and array best.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18552 From: Rod Read Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Ditch the Kite and Take Flight With Ready-To-Go Drones!

That's the email header being promoted today by make magazine.
Maybe Udo was onto something.
Or maybe make has an ulterior motive to persuade maker movement toward high tech AWE.
Lets let Dave S decide.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18553 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Spin Bol Video

"I'm thinking sharp long fast blades (rigid or ram or single skin) will perform and array best. "

"All roads go to ..."

 

PierreB

 

 

 

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18554 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Spin Bol Video

"Its important to envision spin-bols as winning by scaling beyond all other soft rotors;

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18555 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Spin Bol Video
Sorry,

Only a soft turbine can reach km+ scale, and the tip-speed ratio will be low (~2x) due to a combination of square-cube law, the aerodynamics of simple sails, and load-drag. Adding a massive ST drive shaft only compounds the shortcomings of rigid rotor structure. Safety and reliability would be inadequate and capital cost would be very high. Dimensionless wind velocity also drops as rotor scale increases, so even a hurricane cannot easily lift a not-very-large (~50m dia) rigid rotor, much less most-probable wind-velocities.

Strange if anyone on this forum does not understand this by now, after so much discussion. Let them try to scale to just 10m rotor dia, and all the scaling problems will be evident.



On Wednesday, July 29, 2015 3:19 AM, "pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
"Its important to envision spin-bols as winning by scaling beyond all other soft rotors;


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18556 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Ditch the Kite and Take Flight With Ready-To-Go Drones!
Nothing new to "decide". Its been clear for years that the Make scene is a crude marketing exploitation of deep DIY culture. The headline is twaddle. We'll keep the kite, thank you, and good luck to "ready-to-go" consumerism.



On Wednesday, July 29, 2015 2:50 AM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
That's the email header being promoted today by make magazine.
Maybe Udo was onto something.
Or maybe make has an ulterior motive to persuade maker movement toward high tech AWE.
Lets let Dave S decide.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18557 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Spin Bol Video

Sorry cubed DaveS,


You did not read correctly my post ("...An optimized spin-bol, tip (or rim) speed being 3 or 4 times wind speed, would be great for rotating reeling.") and produced  typical  _ as usual _ "straw man arguments" in Gabor's sense : "the above citation from you is a typical "straw man argument", an incorrect way of arguing.  E.g.: What Is a Straw Man Argument?      

" 

  1. I wrote about Rotating Reeling , not about ST
  2. There is no massive STdrive shaft in Rotating Reeling
  3. I did not write about "rigid rotor".
  4. Tip speed of soft wings can reach 4 times wind speed, so a spin-bol well designed and improved could reach this value.
  5. If you understood correctly my post, you should have noticed a real problem: for Rotating Reeling as spin-bol would reach 4 times wind speed, speed of peripheral lines would be also 4 times wind speed, adding much drag. (so my initial design for parachute as hub driving the ring makes sense). 

PierreB

FlygenKite - Kite wind turbine - Eolienne cerf-volant  

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18558 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Spin Bol Video
We already know what a straw-man argument is. Pierre makes a straw-man argument from the very idea of a straw man argument, which is still a fallacy.

Yes a high tip-speed ratio for even an unloaded spin-bol would great, but it does not seem to exist. It would help to if Pierre can supply a reference.

"Square cube law" is ok (not "cubed"), and my reference to the ST came from Pierre's odd choice of technical quote- "All roads go to ..."



On Wednesday, July 29, 2015 11:30 AM, "pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Sorry cubed DaveS,

You did not read correctly my post ("...An optimized spin-bol, tip (or rim) speed being 3 or 4 times wind speed, would be great for rotating reeling.") and produced  typical  _ as usual _ "straw man arguments" in Gabor's sense : "the above citation from you is a typical "straw man argument", an incorrect way of arguing.  E.g.: What Is a Straw Man Argument?      

" 
  1. I wrote about Rotating Reeling , not about ST
  2. There is no massive STdrive shaft in Rotating Reeling
  3. I did not write about "rigid rotor".
  4. Tip speed of soft wings can reach 4 times wind speed, so a spin-bol well designed and improved could reach this value.
  5. If you understood correctly my post, you should have noticed a real problem: for Rotating Reeling as spin-bol would reach 4 times wind speed, speed of peripheral lines would be also 4 times wind speed, adding much drag. (so my initial design for parachute as hub driving the ring makes sense). 
PierreB
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18559 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?
The general prediction is that large AWE rotors cannot operate at the highest tip-speed-ratios that conventional HAWTs achieve due to a combination of factors (line-drag, autogyro AoA offset, lower L/D fabric airfoils, etc.).

The largest km-scalable soft rotor concepts will at best have TSRs comparable to the "American multiblade" windmill, and more likely the working "TSR" of a tall-ship that barely approaches 1.

Image result for tip speed ratio of windmills
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18560 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Spin Bol Video

One time more DaveS offers pathetic quibbles. I do not know what is appropriate: straw man arguments, yellow journalism, lies, misquotations, abstract deformations, intellectual limits (DaveS quotes another not linked post, not seeing or not wanting seeing it was only humor) : it is an open question for open AWE.

DaveS I am sorry cubed to have stopping definitively any form of pseudo discussion at such a low  level which is yours.


PierreB

Rotating Reeling 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18561 From: dougselsam Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Spin Bol Video
Did you notice the sign on the drive into this farm?  "All roads lead to SuperTurbine(R)" :)))
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18562 From: dougselsam Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Kite Enthalpy (Thermodynamics)
Geez DaveS is there any branch of physics that you haven't attempted to misapply to kites by now?
What about astrology?  Maybe the birth sign of a kite is the answer (this week).
You know what they say: A fine line between insanity and genius, and all that rot.
Either you are onto something hugely significant that, at this point, everyone else has missed, and you are the one individual who really understands the significant factors regarding AWE (should it ever emerge), ...OR... Your current thinking represents "Professor Crackpot" on steroids (so to speak).  In any case, it's always interesting to hear your latest thoughts.  Thanks for sharing.   :)  DougS
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18563 From: Rod Read Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?

Reinhart Paelinck claimed at the end of his AWEC2015 presentation that cellular ram foils are already made up to L/D 11.
Autogyro AoA offset... Doesn't have to be a problem with control. Is Makani limited to low L/D due to Autogyro AoA offset?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18564 From: Rod Read Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Ditch the Kite and Take Flight With Ready-To-Go Drones!

I agree "Ready to go" certainly seems to imply the opposite of "make" 
Bit like they gave up on development.
Everyone needs to make ends meet... But it's a pity, for what aught to be a platform for inspiring design. They're especially lacking in AWE.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18565 From: Rod Read Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Kite Enthalpy (Thermodynamics)

Doug, that's abusive. Stop.

As an aside
I'm not sure of my star sign. Born on the cusp of a new astrological year. During a storm Cool eh!? And oh so significant to my "career" .

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18566 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Spin Bol Video
True, Pierre, I really did not notice the superturbine "humor" you intended, and have no idea what exactly you describe here as "straw man arguments, yellow journalism, lies, misquotations, abstract deformations, intellectual limits" unless you specify carefully one-by-one, for proper correction (is this more "humor"?). This topic is about Spin Bols, and somehow you and Doug see it suited for posting your vague ST humor. 

Rim-drive and rotating-reeling spin-bols are here mentioned for balance (three ways to do PTO). Thanks for adding knowledge to the topic without undue Gallic pique (<= humor).



On Wednesday, July 29, 2015 1:55 PM, "dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Did you notice the sign on the drive into this farm?  "All roads lead to SuperTurbine(R)" :)))
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18567 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?
Reinhart's rough number is correct, but modern HAWT blades exceed L/D100.

Makani cannot achieve much better than L/D15, by the combination of many drag factors (conductive tether, bridling, pylons, turbine-drag, etc.), even though its primary wing is very fine.

Neither the finest parafoil, much-less a complex kiteplane really competes with the simplicity and scalability of an SS spin-bol. Let all these be tested together to settle any doubts.



On Wednesday, July 29, 2015 2:00 PM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Reinhart Paelinck claimed at the end of his AWEC2015 presentation that cellular ram foils are already made up to L/D 11.
Autogyro AoA offset... Doesn't have to be a problem with control. Is Makani limited to low L/D due to Autogyro AoA offset?


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18568 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Ditch the Kite and Take Flight With Ready-To-Go Drones!
Rod, you are correct in this context if "by make* ends meet" you mean Squid Labs' gift for making* easy millions. We are luckier to be actually working in AWE, than just making ends meet by any standard.
----------------
* note to Pierre; no pun intended



On Wednesday, July 29, 2015 2:11 PM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
I agree "Ready to go" certainly seems to imply the opposite of "make" 
Bit like they gave up on development.
Everyone needs to make ends meet... But it's a pity, for what aught to be a platform for inspiring design. They're especially lacking in AWE.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18569 From: Rod Read Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?

How big would a bol of windsurf sails be? I have about 8 available for testing but none matching. Thing is will PTO crush the inflation?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18570 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Spin Bol Video

Off-topic DaveS, please add some AWE knowledge as I do instead of presenting straw man arguments, yellow journalism, lies, misquotations, abstract deformations, intellectual limits.


PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18571 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Kite Enthalpy (Thermodynamics)

Doug is right, discovering the new qualifications of DaveS as specialist of enthalpy.


PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18572 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?
The size of a spin-bol (defined as a continuous ring of wings) made of wind surf sails would mostly depend on the number of sails. Could be a nice high-wind rotor, since such sails are heavier built than normal kites.

Its a core design requirement that a rim-drive PTO must not collapse the bol (but can deform it).



On Wednesday, July 29, 2015 2:56 PM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
How big would a bol of windsurf sails be? I have about 8 available for testing but none matching. Thing is will PTO crush the inflation?


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18573 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Spin Bol Video
Pierre,

You overlooked my technical note- "Rim-drive and rotating-reeling spin-bols are here mentioned for balance (three ways to do PTO). "

Its your post that lacks any connection to the topic (and does not fairly offer specifics to repetitive complaints).

daveS



On Wednesday, July 29, 2015 3:16 PM, "pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Off-topic DaveS, please add some AWE knowledge as I do instead of presenting straw man arguments, yellow journalism, lies, misquotations, abstract deformations, intellectual limits.

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18574 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?

Perhaps DaveS can provide some references.


PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18575 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Kite Enthalpy (Thermodynamics)
Pierre,

Its wrong to mock without due comprehension the effort to match modern physics to observed kite dynamics. Lets see if you and Doug can instead add anything to the science, with no one complaining for your sincerely trying,

daveS



On Wednesday, July 29, 2015 3:28 PM, "pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Doug is right, discovering the new qualifications of DaveS as specialist of enthalpy.

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18576 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?
The graphic came from-


State of the art L/D  
Perhaps DaveS can provide some references.

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18577 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Kite Enthalpy (Thermodynamics)

It seems off-topic, but I am not sure, having no knowledge in kite enthalpy.


PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18578 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?
Perhaps DaveS can provide some references.

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18579 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Kite Enthalpy (Thermodynamics)
Whoops, I provided the references for the TSR topic by mistake (you are complaining similarly, across multiple topics).

Of course its up to domain experts to map modern physics to kites, just as Van Veem did, as a creative act. 

The introductory reference as provided here. By no means have we carefully explored the wonderful physics here-


Also noted was Gibbs, the father of enthalpy. It would be far stranger if kites, as thermodynamic systems, did not have all Gibbs' essentials, than that they do; awaiting our notice.



On Wednesday, July 29, 2015 4:19 PM, "pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
It seems off-topic, but I am not sure, having no knowledge in kite enthalpy.

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18580 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?
Pierre,

 The TSR references are found in the Enthalpy thread. Sorry for the mix-up,

daveS



On Wednesday, July 29, 2015 4:32 PM, "pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Perhaps DaveS can provide some references.

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18581 From: dougselsam Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?
DaveS said: "Reinhart's rough number is correct, but modern HAWT blades exceed L/D100.
Makani cannot achieve much better than L/D15, by the combination of many drag factors (conductive tether, bridling, pylons, turbine-drag, etc.), even though its primary wing is very fine."
*** I don't think you can count turbine drag as part of L/D for the main wing, since the turbines extract the power.  L/D for a wind turbine blade doesn't normally include the power extraction as drag.

"Neither the finest parafoil, much-less a complex kiteplane really competes with the simplicity and scalability of an SS spin-bol. Let all these be tested together to settle any doubts."
*** What is "SS"? (Stainless Steel?  No of course not... Super-Sport?)  What does the 'bol" part mean?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18582 From: dougselsam Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?
Amazing to see anyone taking even the slightest glance at actual wind turbine technology after all these years of being (yawn) "experts"...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18583 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?
Correction to Doug: Turbine Drag is in fact a major factor in the calculation and measured performance of (Makani's) turbine-on-a-wing AWES "TSR" ("apparent wind" ratio in sailing).

SS stands for Single-Skin in common technical kite usage, as long used on the AWES Forum; and other pro kite contexts; eg., "Peter Lynn's SS pilot-kites are really amazing."



On Wednesday, July 29, 2015 8:46 PM, "dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Amazing to see anyone taking even the slightest glance at actual wind turbine technology after all these years of being (yawn) "experts"...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18584 From: dougselsam Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?
DaveS said: "Correction to Doug::
*** Oh yes, of course, DaveS corrects me - how predictable - what would I know about the subject, having only spent years designing and manufacturing wind turbines, hanging out with the top people in the field, whereas daveS is a self-described "expert".  Well daveS why don't you find us the wind turbine that counts generator drag as L/D for the blade, M'kay?  Lets see, in the past 6 months, I've had two of the top wind turbine designer/manufacturers in the world as houseguests for months on end - what do you think they like to talk about? (mostly airplanes actually).  So now teach me all about L/D and make sure you "correct" me, K?

He continues: "Turbine Drag is in fact a major factor in the calculation and measured performance of (Makani's) turbine-on-a-wing AWES "TSR" ("apparent wind" ratio in sailing)."
*** Being "a factor in performance" does not rise to the occasion as being part of the L/D calculation.  Correction to daveS: the rotors that drive the generators on the McConney wing are equivalent to the generator's load on a real wind turbine blade, which you (amazingly) actually seem to know is over 100:1.   How could it be 100:1 if we included the generator load as aerodynamic drag? (obviously improper)  The L/D ration of the blade is an aerodynamic statistic and has nothing whatsoever to do with generator drag.  As usual, nice try.

SS stands for Single-Skin in common technical kite usage, as long used on the AWES Forum; and other pro kite contexts; eg., "Peter Lynn's SS pilot-kites are really amazing."
*** Thank you, I want one.  SS: In hang-gliding we call single-surface wings "topless".  Guess who was hang gliding last weekend?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18585 From: dave santos Date: 7/30/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?
L/D and TSR under load are in fact the correct values to characterize the powered-up state of a wind turbine [Loyd]. L/D  
DaveS said: "Correction to Doug::
*** Oh yes, of course, DaveS corrects me - how predictable - what would I know about the subject, having only spent years designing and manufacturing wind turbines, hanging out with the top people in the field, whereas daveS is a self-described "expert".  Well daveS why don't you find us the wind turbine that counts generator drag as L/D for the blade, M'kay?  Lets see, in the past 6 months, I've had two of the top wind turbine designer/manufacturers in the world as houseguests for months on end - what do you think they like to talk about? (mostly airplanes actually).  So now teach me all about L/D and make sure you "correct" me, K?

He continues: "Turbine Drag is in fact a major factor in the calculation and measured performance of (Makani's) turbine-on-a-wing AWES "TSR" ("apparent wind" ratio in sailing)."
*** Being "a factor in performance" does not rise to the occasion as being part of the L/D calculation.  Correction to daveS: the rotors that drive the generators on the McConney wing are equivalent to the generator's load on a real wind turbine blade, which you (amazingly) actually seem to know is over 100:1.   How could it be 100:1 if we included the generator load as aerodynamic drag? (obviously improper)  The L/D ration of the blade is an aerodynamic statistic and has nothing whatsoever to do with generator drag.  As usual, nice try.

SS stands for Single-Skin in common technical kite usage, as long used on the AWES Forum; and other pro kite contexts; eg., "Peter Lynn's SS pilot-kites are really amazing."
*** Thank you, I want one.  SS: In hang-gliding we call single-surface wings "topless".  Guess who was hang gliding last weekend?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18586 From: dougselsam Date: 7/30/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?
Well I don't think L/D includes generator loading, since it is a measure of an airfoil or a blade, not an entire installation.  That is just you, misapplying terminology.  What about an airplane?  Does L/D include the engine thrust?  If so, L/D would be a negative number.  Come on, get real...

As far as me remembering your acronym of  "SS", (of course after you reminded me, I remembered your personal use of the acronym, but I can only remember so many private or little-used abbreviations - no big deal.)  Google the terms kite and SS, and you will find nothing (zero) about single-skin. 

It is common for people with a narrow focus to use a lot of inside-buzzwords, abbreviations, and acronyms known only to themselves or a few friends, even when talking to a general audience.  I deal with that all the time.  It's just part of the landscape of hanging around with nerds.  Communication skills are not always at the top of their list.

They also tend to mutter while walking away, thinking they are talking to me, as though anyone can hear them.  I sometimes remind them: I can't hear you when you are walking away from me and talking quietly, or I ask: "Are you talking to ME, or is this a "note-to-self"?

When I catch them doing the buzzword/acronym assault to my friends, I politely stop them and ask the friend "OK now, do you have ANY IDEA what he is talking about?"  The answer is always the same: "No, but I was just being nice and not saying anything..."

It might be helpful to use the whole word, along with the abbreviation, the first time you use it in a post, then use just the abbreviation after that.  (I believe that is considered proper writing practice).  Even if you've used the abbreviation before, someone may not remember its usage the next time they read another post.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18587 From: dougselsam Date: 7/30/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?
DaveS said: "Nice to hear you are hang-gliding. Like you, I have also dabbled in the sport, but of course JoeF is far beyond either of us."
*** Yes Joe was instrumental in "getting the sport off the ground".  I'm sure his Dial Soap Hang-gliding commercial was the impetus for untold numbers of first-time kite purchases.  Most of us are still waiting for all those nice-looking California Girls to be chasing us across a flowered meadow...
"Why did you get into hang-gliding"?  "Why for the chicks, of course!"  And of course that is why we are all into airborne wind energy - same reason the Beatles got into music...
:)
Hang Gliding themed Dial Soap Commercial

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18588 From: dave santos Date: 7/30/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?
Loyd is a good example of the standard AE practice to carefully distinguish what L/D conditions are meant in context. In turbine blade design, for calculating working TSR, the max (unloaded) L/D of the blade is not the proper value. Hence the correction.

Thanks for the compliment, but "SS" is not my personal coinage. I was taught Single-Skin (SS) kite theory by Dave Culp, in 2006. He had long been using the term in the elite kite designer circles of Peter Lynn (who uses the SS term regularly in his famous newsletter) and others. Of course, its also been common usage here on the AWES Forum, and this is a specialized audience of supposed domain experts.

"AWE" does seem to be a specialized coinage promoted by JoeF and me, so you already knew at least one of our "personal" contributions to the nomenclature.



On Thursday, July 30, 2015 11:54 AM, "dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Well I don't think L/D includes generator loading, since it is a measure of an airfoil or a blade, not an entire installation.  That is just you, misapplying terminology.  What about an airplane?  Does L/D include the engine thrust?  If so, L/D would be a negative number.  Come on, get real...

As far as me remembering your acronym of  "SS", (of course after you reminded me, I remembered your personal use of the acronym, but I can only remember so many private or little-used abbreviations - no big deal.)  Google the terms kite and SS, and you will find nothing (zero) about single-skin. 

It is common for people with a narrow focus to use a lot of inside-buzzwords, abbreviations, and acronyms known only to themselves or a few friends, even when talking to a general audience.  I deal with that all the time.  It's just part of the landscape of hanging around with nerds.  Communication skills are not always at the top of their list.

They also tend to mutter while walking away, thinking they are talking to me, as though anyone can hear them.  I sometimes remind them: I can't hear you when you are walking away from me and talking quietly, or I ask: "Are you talking to ME, or is this a "note-to-self"?

When I catch them doing the buzzword/acronym assault to my friends, I politely stop them and ask the friend "OK now, do you have ANY IDEA what he is talking about?"  The answer is always the same: "No, but I was just being nice and not saying anything..."

It might be helpful to use the whole word, along with the abbreviation, the first time you use it in a post, then use just the abbreviation after that.  (I believe that is considered proper writing practice).  Even if you've used the abbreviation before, someone may not remember its usage the next time they read another post.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18589 From: dave santos Date: 7/30/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?
More Corrections: Joe and I chose aviation (including AWE) from a deep love of flying. The finest women hardly want pilots who fly "for the chicks, of course!", but look for deeper values.
----------------
You were openly challenged on the early AWES Forum to master any aviation field, in order to better understand AWES design issues related to aviation safety in shared airspace. Hang gliding counts, but if you are doing it "for the chicks", it may not help you much.



On Thursday, July 30, 2015 12:19 PM, "dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
DaveS said: "Nice to hear you are hang-gliding. Like you, I have also dabbled in the sport, but of course JoeF is far beyond either of us."
*** Yes Joe was instrumental in "getting the sport off the ground".  I'm sure his Dial Soap Hang-gliding commercial was the impetus for untold numbers of first-time kite purchases.  Most of us are still waiting for all those nice-looking California Girls to be chasing us across a flowered meadow...
"Why did you get into hang-gliding"?  "Why for the chicks, of course!"  And of course that is why we are all into airborne wind energy - same reason the Beatles got into music...
:)
Hang Gliding themed Dial Soap Commercial
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18590 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/30/2015
Subject: Mechanical Kites by Zhang

Kite Zhang's Kites - a documentary of Mechanical Kites

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18591 From: dougselsam Date: 7/30/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?
DaveS said: "Loyd is a good example of the standard AE practice to carefully distinguish what L/D conditions are meant in context."
*** I ignore Lloyd (spelled with 2 "L's") since I had already considered all the standard AWE claptrap decades before.  For anyone who knows wind energy, whether they pursue AWE or not, all that stuff is pretty much obvious.  Textbook boring plug-in yawn-material.

DaveS continues: " In turbine blade design, for calculating working TSR, the max (unloaded) L/D of the blade is not the proper value. Hence the correction."
*** Lift-to-drag ratio for wind turbine rotors does not include generator loading - it refers to the aerodynamics of the blade.  Sure, you "can" compare the Makani wing WITH generator loading, to unloaded regular turbine blades, which is where your "L/D over 100" comes from, but it is not an "apples-to-apples" comparison, hence my valid correction to your wannabe "correction".  You sir are in error with that comparison.  I'm sure no loaded wind turbine blade has a lift-to-"drag" of over 100.  So hang it up - you are wrong again, sorry.

"Thanks for the compliment, but "SS" is not my personal coinage. I was taught Single-Skin (SS) kite theory by Dave Culp, in 2006. He had long been using the term in the elite kite designer circles of Peter Lynn (who uses the SS term regularly in his famous newsletter) and others. Of course, its also been common usage here on the AWES Forum,"
*** Uhh yeah daveS, like I said, I forgot your terminology for a moment and I knew asking would be easier than trying to look it up - or at least I THOUGHT so, but then again...  I suggest you google kite and SS and see how many references you need to plow through before finding any reference to "single skin" (We work for tips!)

"and this is a specialized audience of supposed domain experts."
*** Ah you finally admit to being a SUPPOSED "expert" - how refreshing.  Accurate for once.

""AWE" does seem to be a specialized coinage promoted by JoeF and me, so you already knew at least one of our "personal" contributions to the nomenclature."
*** You and Joe invented the term "airborne wind energy"?  That is AWEsome, daveS.  :)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18592 From: dougselsam Date: 7/30/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?
DaveS said: "More Corrections: Joe and I chose aviation (including AWE) from a deep love of flying. The finest women hardly want pilots who fly "for the chicks, of course!", but look for deeper values.
----------------
You were openly challenged on the early AWES Forum to master any aviation field, in order to better understand AWES design issues related to aviation safety in shared airspace. Hang gliding counts, but if you are doing it "for the chicks", it may not help you much."
*** Hey daveS, by the time you have to "explain" a joke, it is no longer funny.  Sorry you didn't "get it", but that is the role of a "nerd".  "Openly challenged" that is also a good laugh.  I would say you are, in fact, "openly challenged".
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18593 From: dougselsam Date: 7/30/2015
Subject: Re: Mechanical Kites by Zhang
"In the 1960s kites and kite-flying were banned in China"
Wow, that is amazing.  Looks like today's China may be becoming the new "wild west" while soon, the way the pendulum is swinging, WE will be under such draconian restrictions - well, ya know, kites COULD make people who don't HAVE a kite feel bad.  Or maybe they are an insult to people from societies with no history of kites.  Or maybe they could turn out to be useful, and at some point having anything useful will be banned, well, just because.  Who knows, but it is disturbing to think any society could be that lame/restrictive and that people would actually put up with it.  What's next, banning Yo-yo's?  Tiddly-winks?  Spinning tops?  Chewing gum? (Singapore) Paper airplanes? (I once threw a paper airplane off the Empire State Building - yeah, back around 1970).  I think it was against the rules...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18594 From: dave santos Date: 7/30/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?
More Corrections for Doug: 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18595 From: dave santos Date: 7/30/2015
Subject: Re: Mechanical Kites by Zhang
Wow, what a cultural treasure Zhang Tianwei is. He and Mao Xihua take traditional Chinese kites to a new level. (the stark contrast with Doug's littering claim is apt. Zhang and Mao really know what they are doing)-
"In the 1960s kites and kite-flying were banned in China, but Zhang remained very passionate about his kites. After retiring from his mechanical engineering job in the 90s, he stayed at home and devoted the rest of his life to the creation of kinetic kites. Zhang has been making Mechanical Kites for almost thirty years and all of these kites work on wind power, which Zhang insists should be the only power for kites, because the Chinese word for ‘kite’ includes the character for ‘wind’."








.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18596 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/30/2015
Subject: Weifang - The Kingdom of Kites. China AWE?
Weifang - The Kingdom of Kites

============================
How is AWE doing in Weifang?  [  ]

How much effort will be expended by China to be a leader in AWES?  [  ]

This topic  invites following and discussing China's AWE.
Key reporting researchers are invited to make this topic robust.
============================
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weifang_International_Kite_Festival   

Invited: Tracing AWES at the WIKF
Invited: China AWE patents
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18597 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/30/2015
Subject: Interlude challenge
Be the first in the world: 
Be inside a large soap bubble while being the holder-anchor of a kite system's tether set that is resisting the system's wing set.   Advance this, if you would: Have the kite system be making some useful electricity.   Get photos/video of the operation. Submit the record offer to various publishers.    Footnote to reporters that you are a part of an active technical group AirborneWindEnergy   open to all serious working-kite persons.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18598 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/30/2015
Subject: Re: Interlude challenge
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18599 From: Rod Read Date: 7/31/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?
Thin arguments,
weak chaotic interactions,
massive grey areas,
irresistibly rising hot air.

As a front of AWE comes along,
All we seem to get is either cloud or fog

either
You guys really understand AWE, as your arguing becomes ever more like AWE,
or you're software agents in the cloud designed to bring AWE subject weather.

Indescribably complex tumbling & tussling round and over again.

There's no doubt you both have a grasp of AWE.
I personally don't mind that you both blow on and on.
You bring much needed rain. Just don't ruin the sunshine.

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 18600 From: dave santos Date: 7/31/2015
Subject: Re: Tip Speed Ratios of large AWES Rotors?
Rod,

If you cannot as moderator distinguish between the two of us and what is factual and on-topic, just keep Doug then, who cannot even be bothered to read and understand Loyd, know what SS means, etc., and even thinks topics about kite masters somehow are about himself.

I am waiting for for the knowledge-driven AWES Forum to return; this one sucks,

daveS





On Friday, July 31, 2015 1:17 AM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Thin arguments,
weak chaotic interactions,
massive grey areas,
irresistibly rising hot air.

As a front of AWE comes along,
All we seem to get is either cloud or fog

either
You guys really understand AWE, as your arguing becomes ever more like AWE,
or you're software agents in the cloud designed to bring AWE subject weather.

Indescribably complex tumbling & tussling round and over again.

There's no doubt you both have a grasp of AWE.
I personally don't mind that you both blow on and on.
You bring much needed rain. Just don't ruin the sunshine.

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878