Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                          AWES1827to1876 Page 17 of 79.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1827 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 7/19/2010
Subject: Fw: Raising Project Capital

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1828 From: Grant Calverley Date: 7/19/2010
Subject: Re: Fw: Raising Project Capital

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1829 From: Doug Date: 7/19/2010
Subject: Re: New looks at web of Makani Power, just up

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1830 From: dimitri.cherny Date: 7/19/2010
Subject: Re: New looks at web of Makani Power, just up

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1831 From: dave santos Date: 7/19/2010
Subject: Re: New looks at web of Makani Power, just up

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1832 From: dave santos Date: 7/19/2010
Subject: Wind Power Land Use Intensity

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1833 From: dave santos Date: 7/19/2010
Subject: Rigid v. Soft Wing Debate Again

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1834 From: Allister Furey Date: 7/19/2010
Subject: Re: Rigid v. Soft Wing Debate Again

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1835 From: dave santos Date: 7/20/2010
Subject: Re: Rigid v. Soft Wing Debate Again

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1836 From: Uwe Fechner Date: 7/20/2010
Subject: Re: Rigid v. Soft Wing Debate Again

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1837 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/20/2010
Subject: Serious use of real estate...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1838 From: Grant Calverley Date: 7/20/2010
Subject: Re: Rigid v. Soft Wing Debate Again

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1839 From: dave santos Date: 7/20/2010
Subject: Re: Rigid v. Soft Wing Debate Again

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1840 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 7/20/2010
Subject: Re: Rigid v. Soft Wing Debate Again

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1841 From: harry valentine Date: 7/20/2010
Subject: Re: Rigid v. Soft Wing Debate Again

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1842 From: Bob Stuart Date: 7/20/2010
Subject: Re: Rigid v. Soft Wing Debate Again

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1843 From: dave santos Date: 7/20/2010
Subject: KitePlanes in Passive Dutch-Roll Oscillation

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1844 From: Doug Date: 7/21/2010
Subject: Re: Serious use of real estate...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1845 From: Doug Date: 7/21/2010
Subject: Re: Rigid v. Soft Wing Debate Again

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1846 From: dave santos Date: 7/21/2010
Subject: Re: Rigid v. Soft Wing Debate Again

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1847 From: dave santos Date: 7/21/2010
Subject: E-Flight, AWE, & the Experimental Aircraft Association

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1848 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/21/2010
Subject: Re: Dale C. Kramer spoke of using two

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1849 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/21/2010
Subject: Re: Dale C. Kramer spoke of using two

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1850 From: harry valentine Date: 7/21/2010
Subject: Re: Rigid v. Soft Wing Debate Again - Materials

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1851 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/22/2010
Subject: Traction foundations

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1852 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/22/2010
Subject: Re: Rigid v. Soft Wing Debate Again - Materials

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1853 From: dave santos Date: 7/22/2010
Subject: Fw: Re: [AWECS] Traction foundations

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1854 From: dave santos Date: 7/22/2010
Subject: Re: Rigid v. Soft Wing Debate Again - Materials

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1855 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 7/23/2010
Subject: Fw: URGENT ACTION NEEDED NOW

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1856 From: dave santos Date: 7/24/2010
Subject: Makani Power Disclosure Reviewed

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1857 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/24/2010
Subject: Re: Rigid v. Soft Wing Debate Again - Materials

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1858 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/24/2010
Subject: HDT Diversity program might be op for some AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1859 From: harry valentine Date: 7/24/2010
Subject: Re: Makani Power Disclosure Reviewed

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1860 From: Doug Date: 7/25/2010
Subject: Re: Makani Power Disclosure Reviewed

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1861 From: harry valentine Date: 7/25/2010
Subject: "Horizontal-axis" wind projects

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1862 From: Robert Stuart Date: 7/25/2010
Subject: "Horizontal-axis" wind projects

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1863 From: dave santos Date: 7/25/2010
Subject: Re: Makani Power Disclosure Reviewed

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1864 From: Theo Schmidt Date: 7/26/2010
Subject: Re: Makani Power Disclosure Reviewed [power variation]

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1865 From: dave santos Date: 7/26/2010
Subject: Re: Makani Power Disclosure Reviewed [power variation]

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1866 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 7/26/2010
Subject: Re: Makani Power Disclosure Reviewed

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1867 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 7/26/2010
Subject: Re: Makani Power Disclosure Reviewed

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1868 From: Robert Stuart Date: 7/26/2010
Subject: Re: Makani Power Disclosure Reviewed

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1869 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 7/26/2010
Subject: Re: Makani Power Disclosure Reviewed

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1870 From: dave santos Date: 7/26/2010
Subject: Re: Makani Power Disclosure Reviewed

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1871 From: Robert Stuart Date: 7/26/2010
Subject: Re: E-Flight, AWE, & the Experimental Aircraft Association

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1872 From: dave santos Date: 7/26/2010
Subject: George Pocock's Disclosure Reviewed

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1873 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 7/26/2010
Subject: Re: Makani Power Disclosure Reviewed

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1874 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/26/2010
Subject: Re: "Horizontal-axis" wind projects

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1875 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/26/2010
Subject: new graphic at Kitves

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1876 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/26/2010
Subject: Talk, today, Tuesday, July 27th




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1827 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 7/19/2010
Subject: Fw: Raising Project Capital
Attachments :



    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1828 From: Grant Calverley Date: 7/19/2010
    Subject: Re: Fw: Raising Project Capital
    This Trademark capital group seems like a scam, (limited time offer of only $175,000 upfront!!) but the underlying concept is good for raising capital (in the USA) . There are tons of SEC and state rules to comply with. The big ones are no advertising and you can only sell to generally accredited investors (wealthy folks) that you personally have a connection to. (if you met them yesterday and propose your offer today it works)  If your team has a big  social network to tap  it can be a good way to go, if you put in the effort, lots of effort. Better then the Silicon valley VC route, which is also allot of effort..
     
     I am using the services and templates from this group
    It is a bit expensive but I think there is value.  We are getting our preferred stock offer ready for this fall.

    Grant Calverley
    360-378-6186



    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1829 From: Doug Date: 7/19/2010
    Subject: Re: New looks at web of Makani Power, just up
    If Jeffrey Greenblatt from Google had followed through and gotten into development with Superturbine(R), they'd be a LOT further than this by now. They'd be MAKING a megawatt instead of talking about it at this point. Oh well, you can lead a horse to water...
    Doug Selsam
    http://www.USWINDLABS.com

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1830 From: dimitri.cherny Date: 7/19/2010
    Subject: Re: New looks at web of Makani Power, just up
    Why are you such a hater Dave?

    You're not making any friends and I'm sure no one will collaborate with you with an attitude like that.

    We're ALL underdogs in this quest (even Makani and Joby) and as soon as one of us is commercially successful, the market will open for all types and varieties of AWE. Makani's new web site more clearly describes Air-Gen AWE than anything I've previously seen. This can only help us all in the long run.

    Now get back to work.

    - Dimitri

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1831 From: dave santos Date: 7/19/2010
    Subject: Re: New looks at web of Makani Power, just up
    Dimitri,
     
    What i really hate about Makani is the fantastic waste of resources. There is nothing they have done so far for 15 million that any of a dozen universities couldn't have done for about a hundred thousand dollars. Don't be so sure that anyone who deplores Google/Makani's weak performance is doomed to isolation. In KiteLab's case its circle of collaboration is far larger than Makani's small team & likely exceeds your own mysterious circle.
     
    I am sorry you & most of the list is still in the dark about the hidden Makani background story. I was tasked by Dave Culp of KiteShip back in 2007 to assess the company & promptly traced its now defunct parent, Squid Labs, to contract work on Atair's guided flocking parafoil bombs ("swarms of smart bombs" is the marketing claim). This raised early working capital for marketing the group to shine as the inventor darlings of the Bay Area (they claimed to give up military work, but there they were at ARPA-E).
     
    Many high-profile Squid technical projects & spin-off companies fizzled miserably. There were to be no instant super-cheap eyeglasses for the world's poor: Optical quality is apparently too hard with a balloon for a mold. The Potentco generators languished in preproduction, given dozens of cheap hand generators already on the market. "Smart rope" never caught on. None of many lesser ventures, like novelty lights for bikes, was a big success. The whole Make phenom was but a rip-off of the true DIY scene. Makani's CEO/CTO did develop a moderately successful water-ski kite as perhaps the major accomplishment of the Squid circle. This is the basis for the team that Google exclusively funded as a "stealth company", Makani Power.
     
    My report to David Culp was that the Squids were greatly oversold, this was no band of genius designers like their press claimed. During as series of visits inside Makani i directly observed deep weaknesses, particularly in its missing aerospace background, but also in its toxic industrial psychology. I have never yet publicly told this interesting story, as Dave Culp warned the opinions were "dangerous" not just to Makani, but to the entire AWE field, which was far weaker at the time.
     
    Someday the whole curious story will come out. I certainly don't hate anyone involved. Don is a fine hard-working kite person i met at breakfast with Dean Jordan. Corwin is really working hard; learning fast; & may prevail. Pete is one of AWE's top thinkers. Saul is harder to like because his MacArthur success seems founded on misleading claims like the revolutionary eyeglasses & a Media Arts PhD thesis video where seeming hierarchical assembly of the initials MIT is fudged with editing, but i would still enjoy a friendly debate with him anytime on any subject.
     
    You might enjoy meeting & working for these folks. The company is showing a welcome change in culture. Google might yet broaden its AWE play. I'll happily work with them if the opprtunity arises,
     
    daveS
     
    PS Stay tuned for an in-depth review of Makani's new mega-disclosure.
     
     
     
     



    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1832 From: dave santos Date: 7/19/2010
    Subject: Wind Power Land Use Intensity
    "Airspace Infill Factor" is a basic constraint on kitefarm capacity closely linked to land footprint. Conventional windfarms provide a performance baseline of land use to compare with our AWECS projections. We are temporarily limited to altitudes under 2000ft by regulatory & practical restriction. Tapping this low altitude wind above towers is better, but not enough to make every AWE concept a clear winner over conventional wind towers by watts per acre. Several AWE starts (like SoarEn, OrthoKite, & KiteLab Group) are working on high airspace/land-use intensity concepts.
     
    Many AWE starts (like Makani & Joby) show large loose sweep patterns that barely tap encompassed wind, both in practice & simulation. A looping kite's swept area is not easily comparable to a conventional turbine disc with its multi blades & far less power spilling thru its center. A looping kite suffers from tether drag, plus induced drag off its inner wingtip, that a conventional turbine escapes by its cleanness & extending wing across its hub. Worst of all is marginal wind when a heavy looping flygen kiteplane must burn electricity struggling up its loop or loitering, with two-way transmission losses.
     
    A new Makani claim is that its future 1 MW rated system will exceed the space intensity performance of a conventional windfarm, with a higher capacity factor to boot. They hope for 90% availability, which is very optimistic compared to commercial or even military aviation norms, but even so is much lower than the
     
     
    AWE schemes that sweep widely from a single anchor point require either very wide spacing or truly reliable sweep synch to avoid collisions between neighbors. Common micrometeorological events, like a small vertical vortex (gustnado/dust-devil) or down-burst crossing the kitefield can cause kite-windows of overly close kites to intersect.
     
    All these considerations led KiteLab Ilwaco to reject array configurations of single anchor-point AWECS in favor of far denser solutions like kite arches & novel 3D crosslinked aerial string structures. Methods have been found to tightly constrain sweep while still enjoying true crosswind power. Runaway prevention (which KiteGen also recognises as important) is another reason for multiline structure. Varied foundational experiments over the last three years have validated these concepts.
     
    ==notes==
     
    Unlike square grid geometry of conventional windfarms, a kitefarm (of hemispheric tether scope zones) best maximizes land with a hexagonal grid layout.
     
    There is a tiny clear-zone between circular AWEC cells where a conventional HAWT can operate without interfering. AWE & conventional turbines could thus share land.
     
    Noise is a land intensity issue. Flygen Kiteplane noise is conceded to be comparable to existing turbines by db, but the frequencies & modulations are perceptually more distracting.
     
    A new concept in conventional wind farms is to infill space between colossal wind towers with smaller systems. VAWT promoters hope this niche will favor them, but small HAWTs suspended from cables strung under the big turbines would better serve.
     
    Early kitefarms of high mass flygen kiteplanes will require human no-go zones, bunkers, &/or tunnels while conventional windfarms are safe enough for dual-use like conventional agriculture.
     
     
     
    coopIP/fairIP
     

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1833 From: dave santos Date: 7/19/2010
    Subject: Rigid v. Soft Wing Debate Again


    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1834 From: Allister Furey Date: 7/19/2010
    Subject: Re: Rigid v. Soft Wing Debate Again
    Dave, 
    I tend to agree with your economic assesment. Surely a regular deferred cost is preferable to a large up front cost, especially with the promise of performance and longevity upgrades within the life of the system (i.e. you're right about the obsolescece). But as in most flight applications there are trade offs all the way. Have to say i'm not sure 2-4 year flight time is not realistic, Doug is right to say wear can be dramatic with heavy use -so maybe 3-6 months at best with current kites, but then they are not designed for continuous use.

    Here is the view of a non-aeronautic engineer on the matter- a non-exhaustive list...

    Soft                                                           Hard
    Harder to get high L/d                                Easier to get high L/d
    Lighter                                                       Heavier - inertial loss?
    Less prone to weight penalties on scaleup   More prone to weight penalties on scaleup
    Cheap                                                        Expensive
    Under-actuated                                          Excellent control authority
    Difficult and comp expensive to model        Can be modeled through conventional techniques in real time
    Pack down small                                        Don't pack down
    Could deform to match conditions              Must operate in all conditions
    Can do ground gen                                    Must run power down cable

    However if you need to get something onto the market that you know will work, then going down the hard wing route starts to look attractive as the wing performance and control is emanently achievable. If you have 99.9% success in fabric wing control & integrity, you still might have a catastrophic failure every 3 years! Then again if you took a long view you could do a decade of soft wing testing on a marine application to debug..... I'm not sure there is a 'right' and 'wrong' way to go about it - if we are shooting for perfection then we in for some disappointment!

    If you're wondering why I'm posting for once, it's because I still have 30000 more words of thesis to write and I'm in procrastination mode!

    Al


    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1835 From: dave santos Date: 7/20/2010
    Subject: Re: Rigid v. Soft Wing Debate Again
    Allister,
     
    Nice list of sort v. hard wing pros & cons. Procrastination is contagious-
     
    The entire continuum of soft to rigid kite wing has applications & the trade-offs are routine. An optimal wing is always some blend of soft & rigid. Extreme soft kite & hard wing are rare marginal solutions compared to the many working hybrids including all flavors of inflatable & ram airbeam, tensarity, stick & fabric, fabric over framework, battened membranes. etc.. A useful AWECS hybrid is a soft slow lifter holding semi-captive aloft a fast rigid wing or turbine as the power harvesting element. A quiver of swappable wings is a a flexible hybrid.
     
    Besides UV, flapping/flogging/whipping is what mainly wastes fabric, as Dave Culp noted to us. Otherwise fabric is pretty damn stable, the static flight loads are modest. Historic organic sails did last 2-4 of years or so with mending, more if well treated or less in tropics, stored wet. Modern fabric covered aircraft live outdoors for a few years flyable. A composite skin loaded airframe living outdoors eventually becomes dangerous even as a fabric change rejuvenates an old bird. A maintenance hit of high speed composite wings is to keep them very clean, even spattered insects & dust considerably degrade performance.
     
    I am testing how long kites last in high use & they just don't want to wear out if kept patched. Even the cheapest toy kites are lasting indefinitely, some rescued after grave exposure. One does spare an old kite from gale. Vinyl based membrane (PVC) has high UV residence but is not eco friendly. Polyester takes UV better than nylon. Organic fibers like hemp, cotton, & linen can serve, not at such high duty or performance as synthetics, but superbly compostable. Wayne German's hypersonic tethered foils might be a giant ceramic shard or tungsten razor made by Joby ;^)
     
    A factor to add to the soft/hard comparison list is realtime control demand. A bigger slower (softer, lighter wingloading) wing allows a lot more time for computation & response than a fast wing. This is a design-driving limitation for a while, forcing Makani, for example, to use FPGAs.
     
    Good luck with your kite thesis. Take all the time you need, We'll take any heat from Inman,
     
    daveS
     



    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1836 From: Uwe Fechner Date: 7/20/2010
    Subject: Re: Rigid v. Soft Wing Debate Again
    Hello,

    thank you for this comparism.
    I just want to add the following points:

    a) it is possible to have a plane with hard wings and generate power on the ground,
       like ampyxpower is doining it ( http://www.ampyxpower.com )
    b) it is possible to have a kiteplane (an inflatable plane made of soft material), that
       combines of the advantages of a soft system with those of  an airoplane
       (easier to control and simulate, higher lift to drag ratio)
       http://www.lr.tudelft.nl/live/pagina.jsp?id=eda4fd3a-79dd-4419-aa98-02787b09fa15&lang=en

    I just started to work at TU Delft, helping to implement the kiteplane approach.

    Regards:

    Uwe Fechner

    Allister Furey schrieb:
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1837 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/20/2010
    Subject: Serious use of real estate...

    Click image  for full instruction. 

     

    Serious use of real estate...

    Airborne wind turbine
    electricity generating system

     Moshe Meller

    Patent number: 7582981
    Filing date: Jun 23, 2008
    Issue date: Sep 1, 2009

     

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1838 From: Grant Calverley Date: 7/20/2010
    Subject: Re: Rigid v. Soft Wing Debate Again
    One fabric to consider is Teflon coated fiberglass. This is the material that is used in fabric architectual projects.  The roof of the Canada Place pier in Vancouver has been up for 20 years and may last 20 more.  It is 100% UV resistant, very strong, the glass makes it a bit heavy in light wieghts.  I have tested samples for kite use.  The main drawback is it can't be creased. It can cyclically bend forever up to a point and then the glass fibers break.   Seams can be welded with a 700 degree iron and are as strong or stronger then the base fabric.  Spectra and Kevlar fibers have been tried but don't work so well because of the high temp manufacturing.  There may be some future potential with this fabric. With careful design a fabric kite could last theoretically forever.  
    Grant Calverley
    360-378-6186



    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1839 From: dave santos Date: 7/20/2010
    Subject: Re: Rigid v. Soft Wing Debate Again
    Notes-
     
    Eliminating membrane flutter by minimal local rigidity (battens) or stretching totally prevents the damage. Drag is minimized & energy not lost in flutter is available as useful power or speed.
    ,
    Ram-air parafoils uniquely increase in rigidity with airspeed.
     
    Lets define a kiteplane as a kite with a conventional airplane planform, including stock gliders, TUDelft's inflated spar kiteplane, etc.
     
    The Delft plane needs spanloading risers all the way to the wingtips; a cantilever wing inflatable is just not stiff enough to really power up.
     
    Fiberglass is an attractive cost-to-tensile-strength material. Teflon is not cheap but its wonderful stuff. Stretching the architectural composite over a frame is a requirement, but it easily beats the capital cost of fancy composite monocoque.
     
    Another hybrid principle is to use more rigid lower stretch construction at a wing's leading edge (like a D-box) & floppier stretchier construction toward the trailing edge.
     
    A traditional airframe skeleton with a periodically renewed fabric covering may still be the best structural strategy. 
     
    Keeping the generator on the ground with a "rigid" kiteplane aloft may in fact be the hottest practical configuration.
     
     

     

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1840 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 7/20/2010
    Subject: Re: Rigid v. Soft Wing Debate Again

    A mixt between rigid and soft wing

    Lightweight Wings For A High-flying Kite

    PierreB


    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1841 From: harry valentine Date: 7/20/2010
    Subject: Re: Rigid v. Soft Wing Debate Again
    Woven fiberglass fabric imbedded with teflon is well proven.
     
    There are advances being made with silicon materials . . . perhaps we may only be able to speculate as to the long-term performance of woven fiberglass fabirc imbedded with silicon . . . both materials are UV-resistant with wide temperature tolerance range. Its something someone can make at home . . . in small pieces.
     
     
    Harry 




    Look 'em in the eye: FREE Messenger video chat Chat Now!
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1842 From: Bob Stuart Date: 7/20/2010
    Subject: Re: Rigid v. Soft Wing Debate Again
    Very nice. I keep remembering how popular single-surface foils are on sailboats, and how expensive the wing-masts seem in comparison.  Given that we are harvesting a free resource, except for space taxes, we probably want to concentrate on low cost per unit area more than high efficiency per unit area. 

    Bob Stuart

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1843 From: dave santos Date: 7/20/2010
    Subject: KitePlanes in Passive Dutch-Roll Oscillation
    Speaking of kiteplanes, the pendulum behavior given by empennage mass is a nice opportunity. Kiteplanes naturally fly figure-of-eights as Passive Dutch-Roll, with advantages over the circular loop, 

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1844 From: Doug Date: 7/21/2010
    Subject: Re: Serious use of real estate...
    Real Estate?

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1845 From: Doug Date: 7/21/2010
    Subject: Re: Rigid v. Soft Wing Debate Again
    Sounds interesting but imagine if the fabric roof you mention were in 100mph+ winds all day and all night, every day. In both fields, aviation and wind energy, early attempts used fabrics, and then later working models, optimized for the higher speeds and increased longevity requirements that developed, gravitated to hard surfaces for the skins. By this point any wind turbine "designer" still talking about using cloth sails is considered an uneducated newbie at best and a crackpot that we are tired of hearing from at worst.
    Doug Selsam
    http://www.USWINDLABS.com

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1846 From: dave santos Date: 7/21/2010
    Subject: Re: Rigid v. Soft Wing Debate Again
    Doug,
     
    AWE designers who use kites will long continue to study membranes due to the severe weight constraints on flight. Designers dependent on towers to support their turbines are in a different world than us. The burden on you is to show your more solid structures can reach upper wind, even at modest scales. Reaching even just 500ft with your concept would be a convincing demo.
     
    Bob is right, forget raw foil performance, look at weight & low cost v. power out. Makani barely did 10kw with its hard wings, at modest height. Skysails & KiteShip's fabric wings have proven mw scale power in the real world. Osborne's monstrous parafoil was capable of around 10mw, as is the stock Gigafly. KiteGen did 40kw with just a cheap stock sport parafoil.
     
    Beat any of these examples to convince doubters,
     
    daveS


    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1847 From: dave santos Date: 7/21/2010
    Subject: E-Flight, AWE, & the Experimental Aircraft Association
    The wider aviation world is leading the way to large scale E-flight & AWE. Airworthy systems now taking flight already regeneratively recharge or will do so with modest modification.
     
    Serious AWE is a branch of aviation & practitioners must acculturate. Those without an aviation background can join the Experimental Aircraft Association (EAA) & catch up.
     
    KiteLab Group & NASA have strongly recommended AWE developers use EAA & the Light Sport Aircraft class as a developmental template. Resources range from openly shared expertise to flight insurance.
     
    EAA is now putting aviation webinars online to provide a fantastic introduction to many key skills. Sonex is an EAA featured Mom & Pop E-flight developer (compare with Joby & Makani E-flight efforts) in this fine webinar. 
     
     
    Those near Oshkosh, WI, should consider attending EAA's AirVenture, just about to start, with some 10,000 aircraft of every description flying into the Utopian event.
     
    Up, up, & away!
     

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1848 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/21/2010
    Subject: Re: Dale C. Kramer spoke of using two

    The birth of the double-kite?

    Page from book The Kite Book

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1849 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/21/2010
    Subject: Re: Dale C. Kramer spoke of using two
    Notice that the upper kite's tail is
    actually a SuperTurbine (R) with many
    turbines rotating a shaft of a generator
    at the tail end of the spine spar.

    Notice that the lower kite is a kid.
    Notice that the reel with tangle string
    is morphing to be a single blade turbine
    kite motor from DS. Generating electricity
    may be occurring at both ends of the tether
    while the kid directs his aerodynamic
    surfaces to control the amount of anit-lift
    and drag wanted to help the total system
    dynamically move over the land.

    See the full book to see the various
    places the system finds itself.

    The book is free online in color.
    http://tinyurl.com/TheKiteBook
    Page count: 39
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1850 From: harry valentine Date: 7/21/2010
    Subject: Re: Rigid v. Soft Wing Debate Again - Materials
    Fibers such as glass-fiber and kevlar have very high tensile strength . . . woven fabrics made of wear-resistant, lightweight, high-strength material should provide many years of reliable service as boat sails and kite material. There apparantly has been some advancement in the development of carbon-fiber nanofabric.
     
     
    Superior materials will appear over time for the benefit of kites that will stay aloft for years at a time.
     
     


     
    Harry

     
     
    .



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    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1851 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/22/2010
    Subject: Traction foundations

    1851 edition digitized by Google  (click title start string)

    A treatise on the æropleustic art , or navigation in the air by means of kites, or buoyant sails

     

    Page count: 60.

    Dare to extrapolate to the full potentials of traction: over-ground, over-water, in double-kite free-flight, space-atmosphere, space-space... And add energy miniing operations in the systems. And starkly move to have international agreement to keep AWECS  out of military operations. 

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1852 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/22/2010
    Subject: Re: Rigid v. Soft Wing Debate Again - Materials

    "A non-woven, flexible, engineered laminate " for composite parafoils.

    How deep will laminates travel into AWECS?

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1853 From: dave santos Date: 7/22/2010
    Subject: Fw: Re: [AWECS] Traction foundations


    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1854 From: dave santos Date: 7/22/2010
    Subject: Re: Rigid v. Soft Wing Debate Again - Materials
    A childhood hero of mine, Paul Elvstrom, developed modern membrane laminate wing material. Membrane carbon-fiber laminates are wonderful, even resisting flogging if the sandwiched carbon fibers are not prepreged. Later Cuben Fiber membrane laminates have been the ultimate kite material for some years, based on UHMWPE prepreg.
     
     

    Atair only deserves credit if they are moving away from parafoil bombs, they scrubbed the website of the old boasts.
     


    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1855 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 7/23/2010
    Subject: Fw: URGENT ACTION NEEDED NOW


    URGENT ACTION NEEDED NOW!

    MEDIA REPORTS RIGHT NOW INDICATE THAT THE US SENATE INTENDS TO TAKE UP A SLIMMED DOWN ENERGY BILL THAT WILL NOT INCLUDE A RENEWABLE ELECTRICITY STANDARD.

    Instead, it has provisions dealing with the oil spill, energy efficiency upgrades, natural gas-powered trucking fleets, and land and water conservation.
    We need YOU to take action immediately.  We need to have every wind industry employee and ally, as well as their friends and family, call their Senators and tell them to urge Senator Reid to include a renewable electricity standard in the bill.
    This may be our last (or best) hope of getting the necessary legislation needed to save tens of thousands of American jobs in our countries fastest growing industry. 
     
     
     

    ______________________________

    AMERICAN WIND ENERGY ASSOCIATION
    1501 M Street NW, 12th Floor
    Washington, DC 20005
    Phone: (202) 383-2500
    Fax: (202) 383-2505
    Email: windmail@awea.org
    Web: www.awea.org

    Note: this email message is distributed by the American Wind Energy Association.
    If you have received this message in error, or if you do not wish to receive future
    mailings from this organization, please use the link provided below to unsubscribe
    .

     

     
     


    This message was sent from Chris Chwastyk to hardensoftintl@yahoo.com. It was sent from: , 1501 M Street, NW Suite 1000, Washington, DC 20005. You can modify/update your subscription via the link below.

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    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1856 From: dave santos Date: 7/24/2010
    Subject: Makani Power Disclosure Reviewed
    For 15 million Google has bought itself a complex prototype AWECS requiring a specialized crew & a fire-fighting ladder truck as a tower. It develops the power of a lawn mower.
     
    Makani Power's M10 system does not validate the claim to "reach rated power earlier than a conventional turbine". It does not even near its rated 10kw in a 10m per second breeze. Power out varies wildly during the loop cycle, requiring an awful lot of capacitance or battery to buffer the slow sine wave brown-out cycle.
     
    Variation in flying loop pattern height is comparable to the minimum height above the ground enabled by the tower, which does not suggest long-term orbit stability, or that the tower is set to disappear. A crash of this toy system is a probable total loss of the aircraft & is already very hazardous.
     
    There is a higher duty-load on the outboard turbine which means a shorter life & lower reliability for that side of the system, unless they reverse rotation periodically. "Engine out" precludes VTOL. They may have already ruled out VTOL for scaling up. Makani is failing to show any credible launching & landing automation solutions.
     
    The mess the control system must be is the subject of a later piece. Its known Makani futzed with Java & resorted to FPGAs. Its just not possible for Makani to create a robust control architecture for this sort of design yet, with a sound formal model, clean-room quality, safety-critical validation, adequate sensory certainty, superb documentation, etc.
     
    The 10kw M10 demo is promoted as the stepping stone for an "M1" megawatt system, a hundredfold-plus jump in power in just the next investment cycle. Computer renderings show a peculiar three tail-boom six-turbine giant expected to fly from a cradle. It does not look like a VTOL design, which is reasonable, but the landing/stall speed of such a monster will be high & cradle-landing a giant is a highly uncertain expedient.
     
    There is one novel innovation. The essential flying aid, the fire-fighting ladder truck tower, is ironically now at-risk for electrical fire, so it has its own computerized halon fire-fighting system. The risk arises from the requirement for a massive & expensive battery bank worked hard to keep the system flying. Low complexity solutions avoid such frills.
     
    Loyd wrote strongly against flygens in his classic studies. Having witnessed Makani's demo, does Loyd think that flygens are proving better than his surfacegen concepts? After all KiteGen & TU Delft beat Makani's performance years earlier with stock kites worth about 500 dollars. KiteLab can match or exceed Makani's performance, at 1/1000 its capitalization, with scrap. They have declined a "fly-off' challenge with KiteLab.
    The "success" of demos such as Makani's is to underline the promise of cheap low-complexity methods that keep the generator on the ground. Makani's latest feat rivals Magenn in millions-of-dollars-to-scant-watts. Joby's next round of prototypes should further confirm this reality.
     

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1857 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/24/2010
    Subject: Re: Rigid v. Soft Wing Debate Again - Materials

    Include in the mix:

     

     http://www.aeroix.de/en/products/   THREE SPECIAL PRODUCTS.

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1858 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/24/2010
    Subject: HDT Diversity program might be op for some AWE
    Maybe a path for AWE newstarts
    http://www.hdtglobal.com/diversity-form
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1859 From: harry valentine Date: 7/24/2010
    Subject: Re: Makani Power Disclosure Reviewed
    Thanks Dave,
     
     
    I should comment re this at EnergyPulse
     
    Harry
     

    To: airbornewindenergy@yahoogroups.com
    From: santos137@yahoo.com
    Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 10:38:14 -0700
    Subject: [AWECS] Makani Power Disclosure Reviewed

     
    For 15 million Google has bought itself a complex prototype AWECS requiring a specialized crew & a fire-fighting ladder truck as a tower. It develops the power of a lawn mower.
     
    Makani Power's M10 system does not validate the claim to "reach rated power earlier than a conventional turbine". It does not even near its rated 10kw in a 10m per second breeze. Power out varies wildly during the loop cycle, requiring an awful lot of capacitance or battery to buffer the slow sine wave brown-out cycle.
     
    Variation in flying loop pattern height is comparable to the minimum height above the ground enabled by the tower, which does not suggest long-term orbit stability, or that the tower is set to disappear. A crash of this toy system is a probable total loss of the aircraft & is already very hazardous.
     
    There is a higher duty-load on the outboard turbine which means a shorter life & lower reliability for that side of the system, unless they reverse rotation periodically. "Engine out" precludes VTOL. They may have already ruled out VTOL for scaling up. Makani is failing to show any credible launching & landing automation solutions.
     
    The mess the control system must be is the subject of a later piece. Its known Makani futzed with Java & resorted to FPGAs. Its just not possible for Makani to create a robust control architecture for this sort of design yet, with a sound formal model, clean-room quality, safety-critical validation, adequate sensory certainty, superb documentation, etc.
     
    The 10kw M10 demo is promoted as the stepping stone for an "M1" megawatt system, a hundredfold- plus jump in power in just the next investment cycle. Computer renderings show a peculiar three tail-boom six-turbine giant expected to fly from a cradle. It does not look like a VTOL design, which is reasonable, but the landing/stall speed of such a monster will be high & cradle-landing a giant is a highly uncertain expedient.
     
    There is one novel innovation. The essential flying aid, the fire-fighting ladder truck tower, is ironically now at-risk for electrical fire, so it has its own computerized halon fire-fighting system. The risk arises from the requirement for a massive & expensive battery bank worked hard to keep the system flying. Low complexity solutions avoid such frills.
     
    Loyd wrote strongly against flygens in his classic studies. Having witnessed Makani's demo, does Loyd think that flygens are proving better than his surfacegen concepts? After all KiteGen & TU Delft beat Makani's performance years earlier with stock kites worth about 500 dollars. KiteLab can match or exceed Makani's performance, at 1/1000 its capitalization, with scrap. They have declined a "fly-off' challenge with KiteLab.
    The "success" of demos such as Makani's is to underline the promise of cheap low-complexity methods that keep the generator on the ground. Makani's latest feat rivals Magenn in millions-of- dollars-to- scant-watts. Joby's next round of prototypes should further confirm this reality.
     




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    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1860 From: Doug Date: 7/25/2010
    Subject: Re: Makani Power Disclosure Reviewed
    Interesting that Superturbine(R), while easily providing the only working, flying, power-producing demo of airborne wind energy at the first world conference in Chico, CA, is also a great answer for a new groundhugger technology that can be lower, not higher, than traditional tower-mounted single-rotor designs. Our latest prototype, called a WindFence(TM) places 15 rotors (or any number) on a long driveshaft supported by A-Frames. It looks like a swingset with propellers along the top bar. Instead of wasting a couple tons of steel to elevate a single rotor up where it bothers neighbors by impeding their desert views of the mountains and powerlines, we use a fraction of that amount of steel to lift a driveshaft about 20 or 30 feet high. While the wind is not as strong at this height, the multiplicity of rotors will nonetheless make more power than a single rotor placed higher. The economic, zoning, and local code result is a wind energy installation below 35 feet height, far easier to permit even in residential areas, that makes more power for less money.

    Having said that, imagine a tether that somehow could generate power in its own. A tether that could produce steady power, in the form of constant rotation, able to spin a generator, without any looping cycles, without any control software, spinning winches, no capacitors to try and smooth out a pulsating power cycle. Imagine a tether that was PROVEN to produce LARGE amounts of USABLE power NOW, irresective of exactly how it is elevated. That tether is called a Superturbine(R). Anyone considering themselves serious about the pursuit of high altitude wind energy ignores what has been worked out in the form of Superturbine(R) at their own peril. All roads lead to Superturbine(R). Let's get it on!
    :)
    Doug Selsam
    http://www.USWINDLOABS.com

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1861 From: harry valentine Date: 7/25/2010
    Subject: "Horizontal-axis" wind projects
    From time to time, an interesting wind power project orginates from Academia. Severalyears ago, Engineering Prof Brad Blackford from the Technical University of Nova Scotia (Eastern Canada) re-powered a small boat with a windmill. He entered it into a trans-harbor sailboat race . . . contestants had to sail into the wind across the Harbor at Halifax-Dartmouth during an annual festival.
     
     
    Blackford's boat was powered by a 2-blade windmill set at an angle to the sea and drove directly into a propeller. While the little sailboats tacked the wind, Blackford sailed directly into the wind . . . and into 1st place.
     
     
    Blackford's project indicates that longitudinal-horizontal axis wind turbines are able to operate "off-angle" and still produce power. The non-powered rotor blades of gyro-copters that remain aloft while propelled by a push-prop also indicate the ability of such turbines to operate "off-angle". Doug Selsam has incorporated these precedents into his superturbine concept.
     
     
    There may be merit in carrying this concept aloft and suspended by balloon-aircraft. It may be able to generate more power using airborne generators than the prototype concepts that have so far been tested. Transmitting power mechanically from an airborne drive-shaft to ground level may not be practical.
     
     
    Installing a large-scale version of the superturbine in a windy valley and suspending it by cables would allow multiple turbines to drive into a small number of generators. VOITH builds massive universal joints cable of transmitting mega-watt and perhaps even giga-watt power levels from a suspended driveshaft to ground-level generators.
     
     
    The dismal test results thus far involving rotors driving airborne generators suggest that much more work needs to be done on the concept. Despite the small scale of prototype kite-driven ground-level generators, they have delivered superior test results and at lower cost. AS A RESULT, there will likely be a market for both kite-powered ground-level generators (especially at coast locations and offshore islands) as well as superturbines installed in windy valleys.
     
     
    While there have been positive results involving kites pulling boats, the concept may be combined with cable guided ferry boats that sail back-and-forth between pairs of off-shore islands. The kite-driven ferry boats may be connected to the islands by cable-winch systems that drive island-based electrical generators . . . . submarine cables may carry electric power to the mainland shore.
     
     
    Harry
     
     
     

     





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    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1862 From: Robert Stuart Date: 7/25/2010
    Subject: "Horizontal-axis" wind projects
    On Human-Powered boats, we discovered that a propeller has such a strong tendency to align its axis with the flow that it can easily force a curve in its driveshaft. Where it is held misaligned, as in a traditional inboard boat, the boat goes faster than the pitch would normally allow. So there's a lot of inefficiency in off-axis turbines, but the solution can be a lot easier than the varying pitch of a helicopter rotor.

    Best,
    Bob Stuart

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1863 From: dave santos Date: 7/25/2010
    Subject: Re: Makani Power Disclosure Reviewed
    Harry,
     
    Perhaps you can get Makani Power to respond to the points raised, for balance, before reporting. They could at least correct honest mistakes that might have been made in the analysis. Our hope is Google/Makani is emerging from a disasterous four-year experiment in corporate stealth & will begin open AWE dialog, academia-style, to survive. They might even post to this forum someday ;^)
     
    There are some additional Notes-
     
    A system like the M10 is fraught with RF noise risk from many sources. One sees RF interference in the video streams (either Makani's or even current NASA space station feeds). There is high noise potential from the power loops. Systems of generator/motor/controller/HFtransformer/HFtransmission make noise in surprising ways. Computers & avionics are sensitive to RF noise, even from each other, strong enough spikes will jam or reset them. Any unshielded wiring is an antenna. Little things like corners & points in conductors can radiate. Carbon composite & alu structure can channel, reflect, refract, & focus RF noise in odd ways. Welders or terrorists can easily make bothersome RF noise. One is ordered to shut off electronics on a commercial flight during critical phases for good reason.  There will have to be great care taken in RF noise prevention & shielding in a complex flygen's systems. Extensive.optoisolation will be required. Communications may have to be fiber-optic in the tether.
     
    There is no sign of Makani's hot flying-wings actually flying (except for hover & fixed captive-line). My guess is they did try to fly these, had a bad experience & likely were forced to grow the current tails.
     
    The power-out data streams have a spiky signature on the overall orbital sine wave, maybe due in part to a synch error between the sampling & the generator's coils, but other sources of noise could be creeping in to leave a clue. I'll look closer...
     
    Note to Doug- It's true that you can in fact closely match Makani in performance while beating them hands-down in reliability & low-cost. But watch out for the low-complexity AWE solutions to also beat Makani & be flying higher & higher. Your A-Frame idea is a winner as it ensures tension of your drive shaft (which can then be a simple rope). Simplify it further by simply guying two masts like a pup-tent.
     
    daveS
     
     

     

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1864 From: Theo Schmidt Date: 7/26/2010
    Subject: Re: Makani Power Disclosure Reviewed [power variation]
    dave santos wrote:
    ...
    This shouldn't be a problem with grid-connected installations as presumably
    there would be many such units all feeding the grid. Statistically the phases
    will be randomly distributed so the total power generated should be relatively
    steady.

    Theo Schmidt
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1865 From: dave santos Date: 7/26/2010
    Subject: Re: Makani Power Disclosure Reviewed [power variation]
    Theo,
     
    True, the more looping flygen units there are, the less the chance that a harmful preponderance will randomly synch, but that chance is always greater than zero, & may happen eventually. Even with a wide-area grid, with wildly fluctuating local generators one must specify all local grid features, like conductors, circuit-breakers, capacitors, etc., for the local worst case, a capital-cost hit.
     
    A weird possibility is that looping AWE units may tend to synch in the absence of close control. Collective brown-out/surge synch can emerge if units even weakly cross-retard/cross-accelerate each other. Presuming randomness might be a mistake.
     
    Surfacegens with flywheel regulation ease these concerns.
     
    daveS
     
     
     
     
     
     



    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1866 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 7/26/2010
    Subject: Re: Makani Power Disclosure Reviewed

    Page 27 of the file  3600TW  PDF 66 slides (link by JoeF on a previous post):what do you think of such a farm pattern?

    Loop trajectories seem to be identical for each kite unity which space separation is 1 km.So the ratio swept area/volume and surface aerial occupied space seems not to be maximized.

    With Kitegen Stem farm or OKB schemas,trajectories are superimposed to allow a maximization of the occupied space.But Makani's technology could allow other pathes than loop,for example eight path with little vertical variation to fill the space and to allow superimposition of swept areas,and also to allow a limited variation of wind speeds for each kite.

    DaveS' remarks about problems of Makani's prototype are pertinent but problems exist for all AWECS schemes.

    15 K$ is not so much:team pay for years,working prototype with automation (greatest challenge of AWECS ) ,high level of communication with possible returns,excellent last video,etc.Such a prototype can also produce returns of technology,for example for Ampyx's rigid wing.So congratulations for Makani.

    AWECS is a mix between low and high technologies,so low and high costs.A system with only one crash per month or per year will not be accepted,and it with soft or rigid wing.

    Miles L Loyd patent describes gears beetween propeller and ground station with generator via turning tethers into the main (profiled) tether.But now brushless generators are lighter:Makani's choice of high ratio CL/CD (according to rough calculations 8 without propeller,and 5,33 with propellers) is a good choice to allow fast spinning generators.

    However the problem of electrical cable stays.Morever with a coefficient of 5,33 for the kite,but also for tip speed of propeller,winds can not exceed 8 m/s (= 227 m/s at propeller!):this point has been described on a precedent Douglas Selsam's post.So such a configuration seems not to be adequate for high scales.

    Loyd's patent also describes a catapult for launching:the catapult is used by Makani as interesting system for specific rigid wings.


    Pierre B
    OKB 






    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1867 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 7/26/2010
    Subject: Re: Makani Power Disclosure Reviewed
    15 M$ of course

    PierreB




    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1868 From: Robert Stuart Date: 7/26/2010
    Subject: Re: Makani Power Disclosure Reviewed
    An array of kites need to be synchronized to make the best use of local space, but they also need to have a phase variation to give a steadier output. Taking both needs together, we can probably have patterns sweeping through the array, like a line of dancers doing a sequence. Artistically done, this could lead to greater public acceptance.

    Bob Stuart

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1869 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 7/26/2010
    Subject: Re: Makani Power Disclosure Reviewed
    Attachments :

      OKB presents an array but on p.8 of KG-yoyo,it is not really an array but a farm of several unities with globally two different swept areas in alternation,so with a better maximization of the space.For Makani plant p.27 the center of the loop is not a swept area,and two superimposed loops would take too much height;but another possibility would be two concentric loops in alternation;so it would be possible to implement unities each 1/2 km instead 1 km,if there is little risk of collision that a perfect automation system (or a passive controle of type KiteLab with added human controle) will cancel. 

      PierreB 

        @@attachment@@
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1870 From: dave santos Date: 7/26/2010
      Subject: Re: Makani Power Disclosure Reviewed
      Pierre,
       
      Not all AWECS concepts are equally difficult or high-risk like Makani's. Pocock, the school teacher, could have beaten Google's team with his 150 year old kite methods by just giving him an old 50kw generator to turn (Just removing the tail from the "draught kite" would have made his tandem kite system a pumping mill).
       
      High-tech automation is an overrated fetish when simple methods serve. It may be that piloted/supervised AWECS are truly the smartest early solution given the massive immediate need for jobs, not just energy. KiteLab has shown how easily classic kites are able to fly themselves while making power.
       
      Its not that Makani's engineers are stupid, its just that the inventive grace of, say, the Wright brothers, transcends ordinary competence. Where in any of Makani's output is there genius? What exactly have they added to science to empower us all?
       
      Congratulations should be reserved for pioneering systems that-
       
      -Produce large amounts of power
      -Demonstrate an end-to-end solution (including take-off & landing)
      -Are safe & reliable
      -Are low complexity & cheap
      -Add to science & create fertile new understanding
       
      Makani, in my opinion, has failed to show any of the above, with plenty of capital; but several AWE researchers have, despite low budgets.
       
      If the Google founders had not exclusively favored a socially connected clique which wasted most of the money, but instead taken the 15 million dollars & created ~30,000 500$ stipends for all the world's hungry aerospace students to study AWE, great genius would have emerged. They could still fund transparent cooperative global research to quickly settle whether the "stealth company" model was best or badly mistaken. History will sort this out, in any event,
       
      daveS
       



      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1871 From: Robert Stuart Date: 7/26/2010
      Subject: Re: E-Flight, AWE, & the Experimental Aircraft Association
      The culture to absorb here is not the aviator glasses and radio jargon - the EAA is a wonderful phenomenon, routinely producing home-builts that are far better than their factory counterparts, and using garage-scale technology. They have a nice library on various construction techniques, and associated instructors quickly get to the engineering short-cuts commonly used for design. They also generate great networks of volunteers to get their projects done. The world-circling Voyager flight shows what they can do, just for the glory of pushing the envelope.

      Bob Stuart

      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1872 From: dave santos Date: 7/26/2010
      Subject: George Pocock's Disclosure Reviewed
      George Pocock developed & performed feats of kite power 150 years ago that are still hardly surpassed, in his spare time, on a schoolmaster's salary.
       
      He began with the toy paper-&-stick kite. A series of crude rapid experiments led him to a tandem kite arrangement of a "Pilot Kite" & "Draught Kite", separating the two functions to better implement them. The pilot-kite served to stabilize the powered-up draught-kite, easing the manual piloting requirement. Pocock so presumes the necessity of kite tails that he does not once mention them.
       
      He applied animal harnessing methods to develop multi-line control of the draught-kite. The specific control bridle he came up with is pure genius. No more elegant a way to mix kite power-control with steering is known to this day. One pilots his kite just like a horse by two "brace-lines", with no added pulleys, control bars, or other complications. KiteLab has recreated & adopted this solution for its low-complexity AWECS.
       
      Pocock's tactical mastery of kite travel was wonderful. Any kite navigator can learn valuable lessons from his accounts.
       
      Several of us, notably Gaylord Olsen, KiteShip, & KiteLab Group, rediscovered many of Pocock's key methods. To finally have Pocock's Treatise generally available is a fantastic help. Thanks again to Joe for finding it, which has hidden from us by quirks in "search"-

      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1873 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 7/26/2010
      Subject: Re: Makani Power Disclosure Reviewed
      DaveS,

      Your idea is relevant, as well as your comment in general:"It may be that piloted/supervised AWECS are truly the smartest early solution given the massive immediate need for jobs, not just energy.".

      Two ways are possible:centralized production with GW scale AWECS for a big amount of money before finalization (by far more than 15 M$);and low tech and cost decentralized productions.Philosophy and technical means are different.A journalist asked Tupolev what is his dream; he answered " to make a plane to walk me in the countryside".

      So aviation took in first the way of heavy technology (towards jets),in second light technology (paragliding).But now light structures are favorite (architecture,Tensairity for example).And as you say AWECS can not take the way of heavy technology after the first light technologies with initiale kites.

      Makani makes a professional presentation.But main problems stay for all.Nethertheless much methods are been described,among which probably winning methods.The solutions can be finding what are good ways for our time in the world.So it would be interesting you and others develop an ideology for AWECS. 

      PierreB 







      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1874 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/26/2010
      Subject: Re: "Horizontal-axis" wind projects

       

      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1875 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/26/2010
      Subject: new graphic at Kitves
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1876 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/26/2010
      Subject: Talk, today, Tuesday, July 27th

      Makani Power topic of technology series July 27

      On Tuesday, July 27, the Gorge Technology Alliance will host a presentation on the latest developments in harnessing wind power by Corwin Hardham, PhD and CEO of Makani Power.
           The event begins at 7 p.m. at Erin Glenn Winery in The Mint, 710 E. Second St. in The Dalles). The Gorge Tech Alliance received a Google grant to support its Leading Edge of Technology speakers series, making this event free for everyone to attend.
           Clean, abundant energy is the key to maintaining our quality of life while preserving our natural environment. This requires enormous amounts of energy from renewable resources which is proving to be one of the most fascinating engineering challenges of our time.
           Makani Power is developing a game-changing solution which can deliver energy at a fraction of the cost of established renewable energy technologies. Once matured, the scalability and flexibility of this technology will enable it to be deployed more rapidly and in a greater number of sites than conventional wind or solar energy.
           Hardham will review the background that led Makani to focus on airborne wind energy and provide a detailed presentation of the Makani technology. For additional information visit www.makanipower.com.
           The Gorge Technology Alliance seeks to promote the technology business sector of the Gorge by helping start, grow, expand, and sustain high-tech companies. It meets regularly and provides networking opportunities with learning events about technology business resources in the area.