Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                          AWES1777to1826 Page 16 of 79.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1777 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/7/2010
Subject: Insightful humor, morning laugh and tears of joy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1778 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/7/2010
Subject: Reinhart Paelinck

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1779 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/7/2010
Subject: Slideshow 77 slides. Survey

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1780 From: reinhartp Date: 7/8/2010
Subject: Re: Reinhart Paelinck

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1781 From: Dan Parker Date: 7/8/2010
Subject: Welcome on Board Reinhart Paelinck

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1782 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/8/2010
Subject: Re: Reinhart Paelinck

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1783 From: dave santos Date: 7/8/2010
Subject: Re: Reinhart Paelinck

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1784 From: dave santos Date: 7/8/2010
Subject: Altitude Disambiguation & Correction- AGL v. ASL

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1785 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/8/2010
Subject: Re: Altitude Disambiguation & Correction- AGL v. ASL

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1786 From: Dan Date: 7/8/2010
Subject: Re: Altitude Disambiguation & Correction- AGL v. ASL

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1787 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/8/2010
Subject: First night flight ever by a solar plane!

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1788 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2010
Subject: World's First Gondola Turbine Array Demo

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1789 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/10/2010
Subject: Good news on this group tools: Search message now functions

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1790 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/10/2010
Subject: AWECS supported electric highway

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1791 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/10/2010
Subject: Mini-farm

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1792 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/10/2010
Subject: Re: Mini-farm

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1793 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2010
Subject: Super Hand-Winders for Research & Personal-Scale AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1794 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/10/2010
Subject: Re: Mini-farm

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1795 From: dimitri.cherny Date: 7/11/2010
Subject: Re: World's First Gondola Turbine Array Demo

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1796 From: harry valentine Date: 7/11/2010
Subject: Re: Mini-farm - KITEGEN

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1797 From: Doug Date: 7/11/2010
Subject: Re: World's First Gondola Turbine Array Demo

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1798 From: dave santos Date: 7/11/2010
Subject: Re: World's First Gondola Turbine Array Demo

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1799 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2010
Subject: Flying Monsters

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1800 From: Doug Date: 7/13/2010
Subject: Re: Flying Monsters

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1801 From: Doug Date: 7/13/2010
Subject: Re: World's First Gondola Turbine Array Demo

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1802 From: harry valentine Date: 7/13/2010
Subject: Re: Flying Monsters (O.T)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1803 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/13/2010
Subject: Translation anyone?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1804 From: dave santos Date: 7/13/2010
Subject: What is an "UltraTurbine" & does it predate the "SuperTurbine"?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1805 From: dave santos Date: 7/13/2010
Subject: Forced Landing of VTOL AWECS Arrays

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1806 From: harry valentine Date: 7/13/2010
Subject: Re: Forced Landing of VTOL AWECS Arrays

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1807 From: dave santos Date: 7/13/2010
Subject: Re: Forced Landing of VTOL AWECS Arrays

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1808 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/13/2010
Subject: SaulGTalkingAgain

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1809 From: Doug Date: 7/14/2010
Subject: Re: SaulGTalkingAgain

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1810 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/15/2010
Subject: Patent pool or not, someone comments over KiteGen

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1811 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/15/2010
Subject: Just a graphic re: One of Joby's methods

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1812 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/15/2010
Subject: Energy conversion

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1813 From: dave santos Date: 7/15/2010
Subject: Longline Control & XC Shuttling of Sweeping Kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1814 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/15/2010
Subject: Re: Energy conversion

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1815 From: dave santos Date: 7/16/2010
Subject: AWE Consortium & Conference Blues

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1816 From: Doug Date: 7/17/2010
Subject: Re: AWE Consortium & Conference Blues

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1817 From: dave santos Date: 7/17/2010
Subject: Re: AWE Consortium & Conference Blues

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1818 From: dave santos Date: 7/17/2010
Subject: Mystery of the Missing 15 Million AWE Dollars

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1819 From: dave santos Date: 7/17/2010
Subject: Whoops, Missing 20 million///Fw: Mystery of the Missing 15 Million A

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1820 From: dave santos Date: 7/17/2010
Subject: Joby's Modular Wing Myth

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1821 From: dave santos Date: 7/17/2010
Subject: AWECS Noise Issue

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1822 From: Doug Date: 7/18/2010
Subject: Re: AWECS Noise Issue

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1823 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/18/2010
Subject: Dale C. Kramer spoke of using two

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1824 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/18/2010
Subject: New looks at web of Makani Power, just up

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1825 From: dave santos Date: 7/18/2010
Subject: Re: Dale C. Kramer spoke of using two

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1826 From: dave santos Date: 7/18/2010
Subject: Re: New looks at web of Makani Power, just up




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1777 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/7/2010
Subject: Insightful humor, morning laugh and tears of joy

On file:  http://kitepowerqld.com.au/kites-cutting-fuel-costs/

Steve McCormack from Kitepower Sydney

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1778 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/7/2010
Subject: Reinhart Paelinck
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1779 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/7/2010
Subject: Slideshow 77 slides. Survey
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1780 From: reinhartp Date: 7/8/2010
Subject: Re: Reinhart Paelinck
Thank you for the welcome :-)
There is an interesting pdf out there ( ;-) ) when searching for

http://www.google.be/search?hl=nl&safe=off&q=reinhart+paelinck+kite+power&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

In dutch, but you can always look at the images :-)

hint -

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1781 From: Dan Parker Date: 7/8/2010
Subject: Welcome on Board Reinhart Paelinck
   Hi Reinhart Paelinck

         Prachtige werken, graag aan boord heb.

            
                                                   Daniël



Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. Learn more.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1782 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/8/2010
Subject: Re: Reinhart Paelinck
Zeer goede kunst en ideeën!
Dank u.
De wereld heeft de gelegenheid in je.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1783 From: dave santos Date: 7/8/2010
Subject: Re: Reinhart Paelinck
 
Reinhart has added good observations to the findings of his fellow Niederländische drachenautor Harm van Veen's buch "The Tao of Kite Flying". Reinhart's results-
 
 
Long story short, the best kite is generally the lightest kite, scaling weight penalties matter greatly, & AWE starts betting on large heavy flygen kiteplanes stuck under 2000ft ASL are going to have problems making electricity cheaply. In common marginal winds they will even require more power than they can generate by desperate sweeping & will have to land (or crash) while the "real" kites work nicely.
 
This is a large window of opportunity for surfacegen membrane-wing concepts. Once AWECS get into strong upper winds the balance may eventually favor high mass & rigid construction, much as high performance gliders actually carry water ballast in romping conditions.



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1784 From: dave santos Date: 7/8/2010
Subject: Altitude Disambiguation & Correction- AGL v. ASL
i wrote:

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1785 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/8/2010
Subject: Re: Altitude Disambiguation & Correction- AGL v. ASL

Ultralight airfoils for wind energy conversion 

instructed by Gianni Vergno,

applied for in June 2005.   Page count 22 in PDF format. File is in our group under Files/Sequoia/07000788.pdf  But clicking above linked title reaches the same.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1786 From: Dan Date: 7/8/2010
Subject: Re: Altitude Disambiguation & Correction- AGL v. ASL
Joseph,

Notice the gullwing, hmmm! Is it lofted with a balloon I see? Very nice. I think I see the next event to Gianni Vergnos' concept. A small modeling will tell all. Will report after the modeling. This one is exciting Joe.

Dan'l



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1787 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/8/2010
Subject: First night flight ever by a solar plane!
AWE




Français Deutsch

Payerne, 8 July 2010




First night flight ever by a solar plane!

The Solar Impulse HB-SIA, with André Borschberg at its controls, successfully landed this morning at 09:00, to the cheers of a crowd of supporters who came to celebrate this great milestone.

For more than 26 hours, André Borschberg expertly piloted the aircraft with its 64 meter wingspan. The plane was up in the air yesterday for the whole day, then through the entire night, flying solely on solar energy. This flight is the longest and highest in the history of solar aviation!

"I've been a pilot for 40 years now, but this flight has been the most incredible one of my flying career. Just sitting there and watching the battery charge level rise and rise thanks to the sun… And then that suspense, not knowing whether we were going to manage to stay up in the air the whole night. And finally the joy of seeing the sun rise and feeling the energy beginning to circulate in the solar panels again!” These were the emotional words of André Borschberg, CEO and co-founder of the Solar Impulse project, spoken on leaving the cockpit. “I have just flown more than 26 hours without using a drop of fuel and without causing any pollution!”

“Bravo André! You have just proved that what I have been dreaming about for the last 11 years, is possible", cried out Bertrand Piccard, initiator and President of the project, the moment the Solar Impulse HB-SIA touched down. He went on to say that “This is a crucial step forward, it gives full credibility to the speeches we hold since years about renewable energies and CleanTechs and allows us now to get closer to the perpetual flight without using a drop of fuel!” He then ran over to hug his partner, both men full of tears.

“Such success would not have been possible without all the hard work put in by an exceptional team", said Claude Nicollier, head of the Solar Impulse test flight programme.

“The success also belongs to Solvay, Omega, the Deutsche Bank and all our partners without whom this demonstration of the potential of renewable energy and new technologies would not have been possible", added the two Solar Impulse founders in chorus.

Flight report
Pilot: André Borschberg, CEO and Co-founder
Take-off time: 07/07/2010 - 06h51
Landing time: 08/07/2010 - 09:00
Flight duration: 26 hours 09 min
Maximum speed: 68 knots (ground speed)
Average speed: 23 knots
Maximum altitude: 8564 m (above sea-level)

The success of this first night flight by a solar-powered plane is crucial for the further course of the Solar Impulse project. Now that the HB-SIA’s ability to remain flying at night using solar energy stored during the day has been proved, we can start pushing the human and technological limits further. The next important milestones for Solar Impulse will be the crossing the Atlantic and the around the world flight, using the second prototype which goes into construction this summer.

You can download the bulletins, interviews, films and photos from the following link:
http://press.solarimpulse.com
User: solar-impulse
Password: solar-info06


For further information
press@solarimpulse.com
+41 (0)58 219 24 12
press@solarimpulse.comSolar ImpulseSolar ImpulseSolvayOmegaDeutsche Bank

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1788 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2010
Subject: World's First Gondola Turbine Array Demo
USWindlabs requested on this forum that KiteLab Ilwaco develop & demonstrate suspended turbine arrays.  
 
The World's First Gondola Turbine Array has been flying for days without mishap at KiteLab's cableway AWE research center. The array dynamics are quite nice; one can even loop the entire array like a jump-rope without fouling. The suspended turbines are built along KiteLab's well established AWE UltraTurbine (TM) pattern, but with a swivel to take wind from any direction.
 
Phase One is complete & the deliverables are presented below as links. Phase Two will fly the array on moving cableways from kites.
 
A video clip-
 
Detail of the turbines-

Detail of simple detachable gondola turbine hardware-
 
======================= 
INVOICE:
 
To: USWINDLABS
From: KiteLab Group
Services:

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1789 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/10/2010
Subject: Good news on this group tools: Search message now functions
Yahoo search project is not complete.
We here did not at first have message search.
Now we do.
Online, at Messages, there is a field for word search.
Try it.
We are approaching 1800 messages.
Quality and politeness has been a blessing.
Now we can more easily find that former message.

JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1790 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/10/2010
Subject: AWECS supported electric highway

There is now a major electric highway ,

but it is not yet charged from AWECS.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1791 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/10/2010
Subject: Mini-farm

Seeking source of graphic, anyone?   Thanks.

http://energykitesystems.net/imagesSeekSource/SeekSourcePlease22.jpg

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1792 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/10/2010
Subject: Re: Mini-farm


Shows on

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/archive/national-news/450704/

 

But seek artist or owning company involved.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1793 From: dave santos Date: 7/10/2010
Subject: Super Hand-Winders for Research & Personal-Scale AWE
The image linked shows a developmental series of KiteLab hand-winder systems which attained high refinement. They are ideal for handling & anchoring fairly large single line kites. They hold several hundred feet of 300lb test or a couple of thousand feet of 30lb test UHMWPE.
 
Made from simple materials in an elegant pattern, in expert hands they perform comparably with far more expensive reels. Suited for CNC milling or cottage manufacture from scrap at super low cost, up to a hundred winders can be cut from a single plywood sheet.
 
Features include pistol grip, fast-reeling geometry, walk-down lead, "saddle-horn" cleat, belly-brace, anchor-strap, carabiner, & kite glove. Note that walk-down hardware can be a pulley-strap or a plastic bottle-neck. Production partners invited. The new winders are available on a custom basis in the AWE SuperStore as-
 
UltraKite Brand Original
 
MEXICAN SIDEWINDERS 
 
 
 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1794 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/10/2010
Subject: Re: Mini-farm

 

Thanks,  DaveS.

Improved source   with excellent resolution of the graphic.

 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1795 From: dimitri.cherny Date: 7/11/2010
Subject: Re: World's First Gondola Turbine Array Demo
Hmmm. Very reminiscent of a Selsam Superturbine.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1796 From: harry valentine Date: 7/11/2010
Subject: Re: Mini-farm - KITEGEN
Dave & Joe, Thanks for this post
 
 
Damn interesting that Pete Lynn is consulting with Makani re KITEGEN of all things . . . . evidently somebody at Makani or at Google had the equivalent of an epiphany AND SAW THE LIGHT (re KiteGen).
 
 
I'm sure that all who are associated with AWE will hope that they succeed at this endeavour.
 
 
Harry

 

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: joefaust333@gmail.com
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 00:35:46 +0000
Subject: [AWECS] Re: Mini-farm

 

 
Thanks,  DaveS.
Improved source   with excellent resolution of the graphic.
 



Your Photo on Bing.ca: You Could WIN on Canada Day! Submit a Photo Now!
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1797 From: Doug Date: 7/11/2010
Subject: Re: World's First Gondola Turbine Array Demo
Hi Dave S.
Well I am a little confused that you seem to dismiss all I do while simultaneously trying to copy me in many ways. If I say "Superturbine(R)", you say "UltraKite(TM)" or "UltraTurbine(TM)".

If I introduce spaced rotors on a common axis and call it a "Superturbine(R)", taking the trouble and expense to regsiter the trademark at the USPTO, you attempt to implement similarly spaced rotors on a common axis and call it an "established UltraTurbine(TM) pattern".

As they say, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, so I guess I owe you a "Thanks!" :) The video you've provided is exactly 2 seconds long (?), and shows no power being produced, just a tangle of string and styrofoam propellers. The "detail of the turbines" JPG looks like just a photo from the video, that is as confusing to me as the 2-second video.

Neither the 2-second video, nor the "detail" JPG indicate how this assemblage is intended to work. I don't see any power on any meters that's for sure.

To call it "the world's first gondola turbine array", to the extent that a propeller can be called a gondola at all (?), does not take into account the fact that a utility-scale "clothesline" turbine was in fact built and tested in Tehachapi at Oak Creek windfarm many years ago. It was well-funded to be built at a reasonably large scale, with reasonable finish and attention to detail, not just a few handcarved foam props on a string in someone's backyard..
Guess what happened to it?
(3 guesses)
drum roll please
........
It was damaged in high winds.
Like almost every prototype turbine ever created that actually runs for any amount of time, the first strong wind destroys it.

Anyway, I just noticed that you've invoiced me for $50,000 for developing this and I'm supposed to license it, from you, for the L.A area, now.

Nice try Dave S. Some of these online groups DO attract their share of outright crackpots. I'm flattered that you're copying the style if not the substance of so much of what I do, at this point. This is very familiar - I had a guy like this on the small wind yahoo group who still e-mails me with weekly crackpot breakthrough theories and imitations of what I do that "seem" like the "style" of my work but are without substance, and miss the mark entirely. For anyone who would like to emulate the substance, rather than just the style, the patents are in place worldwide, based on government-funded research and years of real data, and serious licensing opportunities do in fact exist. Now is the time to get in on the ground floor.
:)
I've got one guess that what you're trying to achieve is to utilize the faster-than-the-wind downwind behaviour of the vehicle funded by Google/Joby to have propellers traveling downwind faster than the wind itself? What's the essence of the mechanism you're trying to achieve here? Theory? I'm sure others are curious too.

Your disclosure leaves the reader/viewer without any indication of how this thing is supposed to work at all. Anyway nice idea, I guess, whatever it is. Nice invoice. Very professional. I've received such invoices before, from wannabe crackpot inventors looking for a shortcut to developing a proper I.P portfolio based on a track record of real research and development.

There are no shortcuts. String and foam prototypes can be a first step, but usually prove little, and self-declared I.P. without protection sounds noble, but carries little weight with most parties.

Anyway, thanks for including me and USWINDLABS in your post - any publicity is good publicity and you did spell the name right.

So, how does this thing work now?
Thanks for being there and for all you do Dave S.
Doug Selsam
http://www.USWINDLABS.com
~<brawk!
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1798 From: dave santos Date: 7/11/2010
Subject: Re: World's First Gondola Turbine Array Demo
Dimitri & Doug,
 
Yes, this turbine array is superficially "reminiscent of a Selsam SuperTurbine (R)", but without the gross defect of a massive common drive-shaft. Each UltraTurbine (TM) can orient to wind form any direction, which a terrain hung SuperTurbine (R) cannot. It would be nice to see the earlier failed "clothesline" turbine array, for the "World's First" claim is a lonely boast. True turbine ropeways can survive any storm by retreating as warranted.
 
Doug, its wrong to call these fine custom turbines "propellers". "Pinwheels" is better. The "Ultra" TM is clearly designed to Differentiate products far better than anything merely "Super". Do not confuse any of this with humorless imitation. Its also required of this Professional Engineering Mock-Up that it not actually generate electricity, much as Panamarenko destroyed his visionary airship as it unintendedly began to fly.
 
That USWindLabs does not pay its AWE R & D bills should be worrisome to us all. Kitelab is proceeding with Phase Two ($200,000 Invoicable) under a cloud. This World's First AWE Contract Dispute may have to be arbitrated by AWEIA Inquisition,
 
daveS
 
PS LA means Louisiana, NOT Los Angeles. KiteLab Group reserves the lucrative L.A. energy market.
 
 


;^)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1799 From: dave santos Date: 7/12/2010
Subject: Flying Monsters
The story of aviation's monsters are much like the tragic tale of Charlie O'Brien, the Irish Giant. The doom of flying behemoths begins in the womb of the aircraft designer's mind. Fateful hubris & ignorance is then acted out on a grand scale.
 
While most giants fare poorly, if tremendous R & D is done, & the scale is somewhat below practical limits, success like the Boeing 747 series is possible. The largest operational aircraft is the single flyable Antonov An-225 with a wingspan of 290ft. This is only 30ft short of the all-time record Spruce Goose  which only briefly flew to 50 ft in a straight line to become, like Charlie O'Brien, a museum freak. 
 
The WWI Tarant-Tabor bomber triplane had a summed span equivalent to the Antonov. It nosed over on its maiden take-off run & killed its pilots, never to to fly at all. Osborne's never surpassed 17,000sq ft parafoil also killed on its maiden launch & only flew that once. Even the Goose is 100ft short of the summed biplane wingspan (2 x 240ft) of Joby Energy's planned electric airplane AWECS. It is further claimed it will operate as a VTOL autonomously for up to a year without scheduled maintenance & deploy in 2012. Aviation veterans have a hard time with such claims.
 
Aerovironment & NASA's 247ft WS Helios solar-electric flying wing set records for altitude but crashed just before attempting the round-the-clock E-flight first. The mishap report linked below is a model for the AWE industry as its large scale prototypes fail, so all can learn the lessons. An essential concept is full disclosure of hazard despite commercial conflicts of interest.
 
The Me 321 Gigant180ft WS glider proved the practical potential of large tethered aircraft. Its empty stall speed was around 80 knts, so it would have sat grounded in most winds, still, its fun to imagine a Gigant flying as a kite in hurricane winds.
 
In Conclusion: Cubic Scaling Penalty generally degrades safety unless extraordinary care is taken. There is a particular temptation to increase wing-loading & underpower to handle scale. Where a small experiment promptly reveals failure-modes a large-scale system can seem stable. The slow ponderous quality of giant aircraft masks catastrophic risk, but wait long enough & the failure-modes emerge. Speed up a giant kite video to see how essentially similar the dynamics are across scale, with no abrupt scaling nonlinearities.
 
 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1800 From: Doug Date: 7/13/2010
Subject: Re: Flying Monsters
Dave S.:
Thanks for explaining some of why a stack of smaller propellers is a better choice than 1 giant propeller. Superturbine(R) is "the integrated circuit of wind energy".
Doug S.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1801 From: Doug Date: 7/13/2010
Subject: Re: World's First Gondola Turbine Array Demo
dave santos <santos137@...
****ALl roads lead to Superturbine(R)

but without the gross defect of a massive common drive-shaft.

***Yeah that "defect": a generator and a way to drive that generator - who could be bothered with such trivial details when you've clearly got a better alternative all worked out...

Each UltraTurbine (TM)

*** Where have I heard that term before? Oh wait, it must refer to an array of Superturbines!(R)

 can orient to wind form any direction, which a terrain hung SuperTurbine (R) cannot.

***Clearly you have a great-performing product for general consumption here...

It would be nice to see the earlier failed "clothesline" turbine array, for the "World's First" claim is a lonely boast. 

***Yeah it would be nice if you could acknowledge the work done before you but instead you know nothing of the history of wind energy, believing that every false, well-worn trail is fresh & untrodden...

True turbine ropeways can survive any storm by retreating as warranted.

**** Can you provide an example of such a "true turbine ropeway that has survived any storm by retreating"?
***Yeah we in wind energy are pretty weary of crackpots with their pinwheels...

The "Ultra" TM is clearly designed to Differentiate products far better than anything merely "Super".

****Yes your foam & string thingy's with no generators are clearly "better" than my highly-reliable, patented machines based on government-funded research, that power real homes now, through UL-listed inverters...

Do not confuse any of this with humorless imitation.

***If it weren't for the humor I would not be here talking to you...

Its also required of this Professional Engineering Mock-Up that it not actually generate electricity, much as Panamarenko destroyed his visionary airship as it unintendedly began to fly.

****Yes the crackpots always have a great excuse to not include one of those troublesome "generators"...

****Yes & I think you'd better check your butterfly net for holes...

Kitelab is proceeding with Phase Two ($200,000 Invoicable) under a cloud. This World's First AWE Contract Dispute may have to be arbitrated by AWEIA Inquisition,

****You're just the guy to conduct such an inquisition of silliness - Monty Python anyone?...
-Doug S.
*****Here in L.A., LA means LA - Go Lakers!...

KiteLab Group reserves the lucrative L.A. energy market.
***Oh go fly a kite....  
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1802 From: harry valentine Date: 7/13/2010
Subject: Re: Flying Monsters (O.T)
Flying monsters may be possible only at low altitude . . . like the Caspian Sea monster that flew using the ground effect.




Turn down-time into play-time with Messenger games Play Now!
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1803 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/13/2010
Subject: Translation anyone?
Kite Gen istruzioni per l'uso a cura dell'inventore Massimo Ippolito II
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXMUUEOq9xo
Seguito parte I
Following part I

Posting summary of what he said would be appreciated.
Thank you, anyone?
Spoken Italian
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1804 From: dave santos Date: 7/13/2010
Subject: What is an "UltraTurbine" & does it predate the "SuperTurbine"?
Doug,
 
Note that an "UltraTurbine" is a single suspended turbine balanced on a stand-off spar. Joe Faust first depicted an UltraTurbine array running up a kiteline in a concept image some time ago. Brooks Coleman can confirm that i made working UltraTurbine variants with real generators going back to the mid-eighties, which may predate your turbines. KiteMotor1 in 2007 showed how the design is suited to kite lifting higher than a tower to drive a pulley-loop to a groundgen. Joe has a small flygen version.
 
Multi-rotors on a single shaft is not a recent invention, but was an early steamboat propeller idea. Joe found that prior art & can maybe locate it again. I did windpower multi-rotors on one shaft as early as '90 for sailing direct-upwind, but found the drive-shaft did not scale greatly. 
 
So who did the "clothesline" turbine in Tehachapi Pass? I would love to follow that lead...
 
dave
 
 
 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1805 From: dave santos Date: 7/13/2010
Subject: Forced Landing of VTOL AWECS Arrays
When a windfarm of VTOL flygens is forced to land* vertically all at once, the sudden electrical load will easily be greater than the farm's normal output. No grid manager is going to like such a supply/demand spike. Joby proposes carrying a UPS battery on each aircraft, which adds greatly to capital cost & flying weight. UPS on the ground is useless in the case of a tether failure. Joby further proposes ballistic parachutes, at least for its personal electric aircraft design (Joby Aviation).
 
Another electric VTOL flygen limitation will be burn-out risk of the motor/gens just before landing. Overworked copper coils will overheat; internal resistance & power demand will increase in a runaway reaction & burn-out or crash will follow, unless the motors are "oversized" or cooling supplemented. Not even a mere human-scale electric helicopter or VTOL airplane has yet been demonstrated & motor over-heating is just one of the scaling barriers.
 
 
* Landing forced by such causes as- 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1806 From: harry valentine Date: 7/13/2010
Subject: Re: Forced Landing of VTOL AWECS Arrays
The technology needs access to pumped hydraulic storage or compressed air energy storage . . . located very close by.
 
 
Harry
 

To: airbornewindenergy@yahoogroups.com
From: santos137@yahoo.com
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 13:01:09 -0700
Subject: [AWECS] Forced Landing of VTOL AWECS Arrays

 
When a windfarm of VTOL flygens is forced to land* vertically all at once, the sudden electrical load will easily be greater than the farm's normal output. No grid manager is going to like such a supply/demand spike. Joby proposes carrying a UPS battery on each aircraft, which adds greatly to capital cost & flying weight. UPS on the ground is useless in the case of a tether failure. Joby further proposes ballistic parachutes, at least for its personal electric aircraft design (Joby Aviation).
 
Another electric VTOL flygen limitation will be burn-out risk of the motor/gens just before landing. Overworked copper coils will overheat; internal resistance & power demand will increase in a runaway reaction & burn-out or crash will follow, unless the motors are "oversized" or cooling supplemented. Not even a mere human-scale electric helicopter or VTOL airplane has yet been demonstrated & motor over-heating is just one of the scaling barriers.
 
 
* Landing forced by such causes as- 




Enter for a chance to get your town photo on Bing.ca! Submit a Photo Now!
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1807 From: dave santos Date: 7/13/2010
Subject: Re: Forced Landing of VTOL AWECS Arrays
Harry,
 
A smart-grid could also fill in supply, but these hardly exist. One's beer might be a bit warmer because a regional AWE failure caused your smart refrigerator to turn off for a few minutes.
 
More forced array landing scenarios-

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1808 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/13/2010
Subject: SaulGTalkingAgain

3600TW 

PDF of 66 slides.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1809 From: Doug Date: 7/14/2010
Subject: Re: SaulGTalkingAgain
This is reminiscent of most Public Relations literature disseminated by new companies with new turbine designs.
The focus usually starts with "global warming", then discusses the vastness of the wind resource and how much energy is there to be had.
All great background to build "credibility" by citing a few "known facts" (?) taking up several pages to thereby numb the reader into submission, but none of that even IMPLIES that a new solution is at hand.

Then the thrust is how much cheaper the new technology will be than the old. Based on what exactly? A wish. I coined a new term, looking out from within the world of regular wind energy (where turbines produce power and are sold, installed, and used). That term is "Wish Turbine", for turbines that are based on a wish, rather than the actual wind.

The lack of any product for sale, at any scale, that anyone can test and put numbers to, with regard to cost or power output, is what is lacking here. If the theory is solid, there must be a way to offer a product based on it now. Even the scam turbine companies with their ubiquitous vertical-axis building-mounted designs usually have a photo of a non-operating sheet-metal contraption on a rooftop, somewhere, for sale, inclduing "territories", though data is usually absent.

Imagine a small wind turbine company in say the 1930's with a concept for a Wincharger for the farm. Imagine if year after year, all they talked about was the future possibility of incredibly large turbines, and all the possibilities they hypothetically (at that time) could offer. But no small version was ever built or sold. Year after year. At some point you might wonder: If the theory is so solid, why no small product for sale?
But then one might start to notice the number of theories touted, with none being quite settled on. One realizes that what is being defined is an engineering challenge more than a solution that is worked out.

We've got a Wincharger at our test site that looks like it operated for many years. They produced electricity for many homes. Nobody waited years or decades while endless talk took place. There was no "throwing spaghetti at the wall" approach that endlessly discussed myriad possible turbine concepts. No instead, there was a simple turbine on a small tower with overspeed protection built in and they built and sold them to many people to power their homes (radio & a few lights for example). The theories were backed up with working examples. That proved that no holes remained in the theory.

Once people could see that these wind turbine generators worked, larger and larger ones were built. The few large ones that were built too big, too soon, had problems and were shut down (lack of learning curve).
An example of that would be the giant megawatt steel turbine built at Grandpa's Knob.

But what we're seeing here is over-the-top strong in talk, perhaps we could even call it hype, but without any working example that anyone can buy and operate and take data from, at any scale, for any use, no matter how long we wait.

Let's realize that placing rotors on blades, so that the blades push the rotors through the air at high speed, is an old idea. Connecting two or more circling kites at the center is an old idea - it is how wind turbine rotors got their start 2000 years ago in the Greek islands.

Here are a few problems I see with this approach:
Mach number: Say your kite travels at 120 mph. Say your wind turbine rotor is designed to operate at a tip speed ratio of 6, considered average. Now your tips are breaking Mach 1. If you think today's turbines are noisy, I can tell you that when blades attain even a significant fraction of mach 1, they get noisy. If they attain mach 1, they emit vapor that looks like smoke and the sound is like a series of explosions.

The blade speed & finish, and amount of swept area required for a given output at a give speed have been worked out for decades. Calling a blades a kite doesn't really change the fact that the basics of wind energy remain in place, despite the wish that a completely new technology has somehow emerged.

Note the retraction of most efforts toward merely using a tower, circular paths, tethering the kites at the center, etc. Somewhere along the line one might note that the most ambitious, stratospheric efforts seem to hedge back to slight variants on a propeller mounted on a tower.

I'd like to use Magenn as an example here. With all due respect to anyone who at least tries something, and builds something, wind energy people can easily point out flaws with the magenn design, starting with the fact that it embodies the lowest-efficiency design known, making it more expensive, and even less efficient, by wrapping it around a helium balloon. But facts don't seem to matter in this art. If I insisted on seeing a power output curve for a Magenn turbine, I'd be considered a bully. I'd be the one out of line to even ask how much power their machine produces. I'd be the one considered too harsh if I insisted on seeing just what a Magenn machine has done for anyone's electric bill. I'd be the bad guy if I insisted on seeeing the numbers for how long a Magenn system has operated at any one site qithout problems. If I insisted on seeing evidence that a Magenn turbine has survived 70 MPH winds, I'd be the one called on the carpet to explain my cynicism.

Yet Magenn can go on and on talking about global warming and birds and the vastness of the wind resource, with absolutely nothing (so far as I know - please correct me) to offer anyone to help their energy needs AT ALL. Don't you think if any of these contraptions could make anyone any useful power you would hear about it?
How many millions of dollars has been raised by mentioning a vast wind resource and predictable, regular, global temperature swings, in lieu of any evidence that one has a legitimate energy solution? When are the purveyors called out on the carpet publicly to answer to the facts:
At no point is Magenn (or any of the rest, so far as we know) asked:
1) How much can I buy your system for now?
2) What is the power curve?
3) What's the longest-lived installation you can point to?
4) What is the O & M cost of operation?
5) What is the Return on Investment, in a class 5 or class 6 wind resource?
6) Could such a machine even survive in a true industrial-level wind resource?
7) What is the highest-rated windspeed the system has been demonstrated to survive?
8) What is the energy per month in a given wind class location?
9) How long can the machine be expected to last?
10) What is the warranty: How many years?
11) How long is the deliver lead time?
12) Can we talk to a happy owner please?

In short, after reading years of multi-million dollar hype, try asking ANY of these "advanced" wind energy companies ANY pertinent question that is normally considered basic information about ANY wind turbine, and you will come up COMPLETELY empty-handed.
I'm just sayin'...
:)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1810 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/15/2010
Subject: Patent pool or not, someone comments over KiteGen
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1811 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/15/2010
Subject: Just a graphic re: One of Joby's methods
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1812 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/15/2010
Subject: Energy conversion
Fagiano, L.;   Milanese, M.;   Piga, D.;  
Dipt. di Autom. e Inf., Politec. di Torino, Torino, Italy 

This paper appears in: Energy Conversion, IEEE Transactions on
Issue Date: March 2010
Volume: 25 Issue:1
On page(s): 168 - 180
ISSN: 0885-8969
INSPEC Accession Number: 11138234
Digital Object Identifier: 10.1109/TEC.2009.2032582 
Date of Publication: 08 December 2009
Date of Current Version: 18 February 2010
Sponsored by: IEEE Power & Energy Society 

Abstract

The paper presents the innovative technology of high-altitude wind power generation, indicated as Kitenergy, which exploits the automatic flight of tethered airfoils (e.g., power kites) to extract energy from wind blowing between 200 and 800 m above the ground. The key points of this technology are described and the design of large scale plants is investigated, in order to show that it has the potential to overcome the limits of the actual wind turbines and to provide large quantities of renewable energy, with competitive cost with respect to fossil sources. Such claims are supported by the results obtained so far in the Kitenergy project, undergoing at Politecnico di Torino, Italy, including numerical simulations, prototype experiments, and wind data analyses.

 

========

I have not seen the paper, and so have no comment what may be progress over earlier papers.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1813 From: dave santos Date: 7/15/2010
Subject: Longline Control & XC Shuttling of Sweeping Kites
Directing sweeping kites by pulling lines from the ground is the simplest cheapest control actuation method. At distances of a few hundred meters where common direct multiline kite control is too mushy AWECS designers have been forced to resort to radio-controlled pods with batteries & servos. This adds flying weight, capital/operating/maintenance costs, & failure modes (dead batteries, communications gaps, worn-out servos, etc.). A related problem is how to shuttle a kite XC crosswind on tracks or cableways where control lines must somehow keep up the chase. This post describes methods extending direct multiline control to higher altitudes & crosswind shuttling.
 
Driving a string pulley loop set crosswind between two anchors is a powerful way to tap a shuttling powerkite.  A stock generator with a pulley-wheel can be so driven but a direct kite control method of a shuttling kite has been elusive. A pair of string pulley loops moving in tandem can do the job.  The "upwind loop" is connected to the forward lines (A,B) brought together aloft as a bridle junction. The downwind loop is connected to a pulley/control-bar thingy at the bridle junction to toggle brake lines (D) left or right, retarding or advancing the loop relative to its partner. Both loops drive the generator shaft at one end of travel while a pulley pair at the other end varies the moving loops relative relative to each other. To operate use either cross-linked heddle pulleys with reins or a pulley T-bar moved by a joystick or steering wheel. Photos & sketches pending, so have fun imagining thingies & layouts.
 
A general principle for controlling long-line kites is to use the thinnest low-stretch lines (esp. UHMWPE) for control lines. Catenary mush is minimized & can be reduced further by a small tensioning drogue on a pulley self-flying partway up the line. Such tensioning robs a bit of raw performance, but less than a control pod up to considerable distance. Tensioning reduces control lag so much that crisp control over many hundreds of meters is enabled.
 
Misc. Tips- The use of reins to a control bar, such as control draft animals, allows personnel to stay "out of the bite" of dangerous ground tackle. Another bar-trick is to "float" a control bar to the brake lines unconnected to the main anchor "working line" to fore-lines, but you must stay near that anchor point.
 
 
fairIP/coopIP

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1814 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/15/2010
Subject: Re: Energy conversion

Though most of us have seen the first published version of the paper,
I am not yet seeing what tweaks were made for the 2010 version.

 

In any case the site at

http://www.kitenergy.net/home.php

is freshened ....inviting a thorough review by those in AWE !

 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1815 From: dave santos Date: 7/16/2010
Subject: AWE Consortium & Conference Blues
The AWE Consortium (AWEC) claimed to "unite the stakeholders of the international airborne wind energy industry into a single, focused and independent voice", but several issues in fact divide the field-

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1816 From: Doug Date: 7/17/2010
Subject: Re: AWE Consortium & Conference Blues
Dave S.
I may make fun of some of your shizzle but at least you are building real 3-D flying things. Don't give up. Bureaucracies quickly get too bloated to respond to much of anything, or do anything besides talk, using a lot of jet fuel and a lot of money to fly lots opf big talkers to conferences, where they can reinforce the notion that sitting in a chair doing nothing is progress, since they all sit in chairs together doing nothing together. Try finding a single new type of turbine built or tested by any federal lab in the last 30 years for example. The breakthroughs will continue to come from peoples' garages.
Who exactly IS AWEC? Is that us or someone else? Sorry for not paying closer attention to acronyms, but I've been busy doing wind energy research designing, manufacturing, testing, and selling turbines. Until I see anything flying that returns any value in the form of power, I'm not too worried about which group of big talkers has glommed onto what series of 4 capital letters. I do maintain that my designs would do the job, and wish I had a few more hours in the day to build the flying versions, but we'll get to it.
Doug S.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1817 From: dave santos Date: 7/17/2010
Subject: Re: AWE Consortium & Conference Blues
Doug, You should buy a Diamond Membership, it rocks ;^)
 
 


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1818 From: dave santos Date: 7/17/2010
Subject: Mystery of the Missing 15 Million AWE Dollars
How much available capital does Joby Energy really have? Both 50 & 5 million are quoted in the media, suggestive of a typo. Press statements assert that the AWE Consortium represents 50 million in capitalization, which includes Joby, so its possible that there is far less Joby money than thought-
 
Makani 15 million from Google
Magenn  5 million from a mark (or shark) investor
Joby    "50" million in dot.com whatever money
 
Total     65 million, 15 million more than the 50 total claim
 
The numbers don't add up. Also missing from the calculation is a stealth play in AWE of unknown size into the consortium by Quercus Trust. So where is the missing moolah? Waste doesn't count. The burn rate of these starts is astronomical; renting airbases, impulse buying, vanity staffing, & funding research on Maui is not cheap. Don't expect any public disclosure of waste ("stealth capitalism"). Depending on where funds are parked they can shrink in a down economy. Joby might have invested in the wrong stocks, leveraged real-estate, or something.
 
Besides the amazing competency required to develop safe effective large-scale aviation systems it takes billions of dollars, so these AWE dreams are at the mercy of major new investment. Google is still freaked by its soured Makani play. Boeing or Airbus could step into the utility-scale AWE market & instantly own the show.
 
 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1819 From: dave santos Date: 7/17/2010
Subject: Whoops, Missing 20 million///Fw: Mystery of the Missing 15 Million A
50 + 15 + 5 = 70
 
Sorry for the math error...
 
Note: SkyWindpower's funding is also part of the AWE Consortium total but i have no info about it.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1820 From: dave santos Date: 7/17/2010
Subject: Joby's Modular Wing Myth
Joby Energy promotes a pet idea, that 12 40ft "modular wing" sections radically enable its giant flygen kiteplane. This disregards that an optimal airframe requires each wing section to have a uniquely tailored design. The original claim of interchangeability is unworkable.
 
Wingtip sections should be be lightest as they are far less loaded than the centerspan of Joby's extremely tetherpoint-loaded design. Its also a basic principle of vehicle design to always minimize peripheral mass, for agility.
 
Joby's bottom biplane wing acts mostly in tension relative to the top wing where immense compressive forces concentrate toward the center. A massive blended wingbox is needed there & balance will suffer.
 
The sections must be right or left handed to have an ideally tapered structure, as the foils have a set leading/trailing orientation. Control surfaces also erode modularity. A proper wing has "wash-out", a progressive reduction in angle of incidence toward its tips, that a modular wing section will lack.
 
These issues are particularly critical for large aircraft where margins are tightened by cubic scaling penalty & increased consequence of failure. They might size wing sections similarly for ground-shipping (inferior to air ferrying), but each must be unique in design to fly right.
 
Prediction: Joby will abandon interchangeable modularity as its designers discover how large aircraft are really built.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1821 From: dave santos Date: 7/17/2010
Subject: AWECS Noise Issue
AWECS noise will range from whisper quiet to a mighty hornet roar. Several design factors are making noise an issue including-

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1822 From: Doug Date: 7/18/2010
Subject: Re: AWECS Noise Issue
Usually any wind turbine blade tip speed over 200 mph gets pretty noisy. This suggest lower tip-speed-ratio (TSR) propellers for using 50-100 mph + winds. Which implies a higher-solidity rotor (more blade area filling the circle) which implies more wake vorticity, which implies lower efficiency. Also the turbine blades would need to be at a higher level of strength like an airplane propeller suitable for 24/7/365 use. That's a lot of punishment for even a metal propeller let alone a cloth kite. Or did I hear someone had decided to use a hard surface? How much time & money could be saved by asking people who know about wind energy?
Doug S.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1823 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/18/2010
Subject: Dale C. Kramer spoke of using two

Dale C. Kramer spoke of using two of his ultralights in coupled kited free-flight (no tether to the ground), one at each end of the soared tether; each end of the tether would have one of his aircraft.  Each aircraft would be in its own airs and would be flown to maintain desired tether tensions and whole-system flight path. At each aircraft could be energy-mining turbines; the energy could be used aloft or stored aloft or sent via powerbeams to other aircraft or ground receptors at sea or on land.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1824 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/18/2010
Subject: New looks at web of Makani Power, just up
New looks at web of Makani Power, just up!
http://www.makanipower.com/
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1825 From: dave santos Date: 7/18/2010
Subject: Re: Dale C. Kramer spoke of using two
Dale is a real hero of ultralight & glider flight who is preparing to be the first pilot to ever demonstrate human "free-flight" with a tethered aircraft pair. It was a highlight of HAWPCON09 for many of us to meet him. A key idea is that AWE is true aviation. Many existing aeronautical components are ready-made for AWE.
 
Dale could in short order be winched aloft in an existing electric motorglider (off its aux tether point) charge it by sweeping crosswind to drive its (symmetric foil) prop in turbine-mode, drop tether, & land or head off XC fully wind-charged, with minimal FAA hurdles. A conductive tether system is a bit much to quickly & safely cobble, but he could also work a simple tether with a pure glider against a regenerative groundwinch.
 
 
 
fairIP/coopIP

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1826 From: dave santos Date: 7/18/2010
Subject: Re: New looks at web of Makani Power, just up
Its a beautiful web site whose contents clearly show the promise of kite energy. How sweet to see Miles Loyd get to finally witness a working crosswind power AWECS.
 
They are not showing a good solution yet for take-off & landing. The pop-gun launch is a real dog, it puts a high G cycle on everything. Don't expect to see an aircraft reliably tail-land on a gun barrel. Apparently they still drop tether & land conventionally. MP's flying wing mock-ups sport little landing legs, but one sees the flight prototypes struggle with VTOL climb, especially as they grow.
 
Capital/operational/maintenance costs are very high & reliability low with bleeding-edge designs of this class. Expect MTBF to be as little as a few hours or a couple of days for a long time. They must now earn wings in the safety-critical real world. Scaling will be slow & painful. These slickly marketed companies must begin to honestly report problems & mishaps, as academia & aviation do.
 
Hurry up with your Low-Complexity AWE solutions, or Google will eat you alive ;^)