Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                          AWES 17746 to 17795 Page 249 of 440.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17746 From: dougselsam Date: 5/4/2015
Subject: electric plane with 10 props

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17747 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/5/2015
Subject: Pulsing Tethers for AWES :: CC 4.0 BY NC SA by kPower, Inc

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17748 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/5/2015
Subject: Kite Loop Generator by Dan Tracy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17749 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 5/5/2015
Subject: Re: Kite Loop Generator by Dan Tracy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17750 From: dougselsam Date: 5/6/2015
Subject: Re: Kite Loop Generator by Dan Tracy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17751 From: Rod Read Date: 5/6/2015
Subject: Re: Kite Loop Generator by Dan Tracy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17752 From: dougselsam Date: 5/6/2015
Subject: Re: Are all tidal blah-blah-blahs wrong?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17753 From: Christian Harrell Date: 5/6/2015
Subject: 3D Printing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17754 From: Rod Read Date: 5/6/2015
Subject: Re: 3D Printing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17755 From: dave santos Date: 5/6/2015
Subject: Re: Kite Loop Generator by Dan Tracy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17756 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Re: Kite Loop Generator by Dan Tracy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17757 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Re: Kite Loop Generator by Dan Tracy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17758 From: dave santos Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Re: 3D Printing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17759 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Study of: http://www.hwn500.de/

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17760 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Hat reels and also telescoping reel sets :: CC 4.0 BY NC SA by kPowe

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17761 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Status of Airborne Wind Energy to date _______

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17762 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Study of http://www.levicraft.de/

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17763 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Study of: http://www.liros.com/

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17764 From: dave santos Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Re: Study of: http://www.hwn500.de/

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17765 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Re: Repeller

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17766 From: dave santos Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Re: Status of Airborne Wind Energy to date _______

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17767 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Re: Status of Airborne Wind Energy to date _______

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17768 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Re: Status of Airborne Wind Energy to date _______

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17769 From: dave santos Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Re: Study of: http://www.liros.com/

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17770 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Re: Status of Airborne Wind Energy to date _______

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17771 From: Christian Harrell Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Re: 3D Printing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17772 From: dave santos Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Re: Status of Airborne Wind Energy to date _______

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17773 From: dave santos Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Re: 3D Printing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17774 From: dave santos Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Re: Repeller

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17775 From: Christian Harrell Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Re: 3D Printing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17776 From: Rod Read Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Re: Status of Airborne Wind Energy to date _______

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17777 From: benhaiemp Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Viability

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17778 From: dave santos Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Re: 3D Printing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17779 From: dave santos Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Re: Viability

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17780 From: dave santos Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Major New

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17781 From: dave santos Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Sean Costello presents AWE in EDF Pulse

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17782 From: dave santos Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: MultiKite French-Mexican AWE Project

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17783 From: dave santos Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Window into Peter Lynn's SSL Quest

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17784 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/8/2015
Subject: Modified parachutes to effect kiting

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17785 From: Christian Harrell Date: 5/9/2015
Subject: Re: Viability

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17786 From: benhaiemp Date: 5/9/2015
Subject: Re: Viability

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17787 From: Christian Harrell Date: 5/9/2015
Subject: Re: Viability

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17788 From: benhaiemp Date: 5/9/2015
Subject: Re: Viability

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17789 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/9/2015
Subject: Re: George Lawrence

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17790 From: dave santos Date: 5/9/2015
Subject: Re: Viability

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17791 From: dave santos Date: 5/9/2015
Subject: Re: George Lawrence

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17792 From: benhaiemp Date: 5/9/2015
Subject: Re: Viability

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17793 From: benhaiemp Date: 5/9/2015
Subject: Re: Viability

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17794 From: dave santos Date: 5/10/2015
Subject: Re: Viability

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17795 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 5/10/2015
Subject: Re: Viability



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17746 From: dougselsam Date: 5/4/2015
Subject: electric plane with 10 props
I'm sure many of you also got the same Gizmag e-mail featuring a hybrid diesel-electric tilt-wing airplane, reminiscent of the McConney kiteplanes:
http://www.gizmag.com/ten-engine-electric-plane-takes-off/37280/
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17747 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/5/2015
Subject: Pulsing Tethers for AWES :: CC 4.0 BY NC SA by kPower, Inc

Pulsing Tethers for AWES ::  CC 4.0 BY NC SA by kPower, Inc


Have short or long segments of AWES tethers constructed to effect pulsations/oscillations from low drag to high drag and from low lift (negative or positive) to high lift (negative or positive); use the pulsations/oscillations to effect power take off (PTO) mechanisms. The involved tethers may be oriented at any needed inclination relative to some framework. Particular constructions to achieve such tether alternations are of a wide variety (not limited to the following: pulsing inflation, pulsing flaps, pulsing airfoil shapes, fuzz to non-fuzz, ...).  Technology here disclosed is not limited to the following example: Have a firm lifter wing set tethered by one main tether; have that tether constructed with a bi-part streamlining where the two parts longitudinally flap open while being hinged at the leading edge load-carrying part of the tether.  When the flaps open, then the tether become highly negative lifting and highly downwind dragging; the catenary starkly deepens and the wing set is drawn and the anchor system is drawn; use the anchor-system draw for PTO; then let the tether that is flapped open be closed to streamline for low draw and low negative lift which lets lifting wing set rise again and lets anchor draw be less; the alternation makes possible the PTO at the anchor system. 


Pulsing Tethers for AWES :: CC 4.0 BY NC SA by kPower, Inc

~~ Joe Faust 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17748 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/5/2015
Subject: Kite Loop Generator by Dan Tracy

I just launched a new kitegen on Kickstarter 



Hope all is well,

Dan
=====================
[[ At the page, I found it informative to read each paragraph under each level of participation. ~ JoeF ]]
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17749 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 5/5/2015
Subject: Re: Kite Loop Generator by Dan Tracy

All roads come from FlygenKite http://flygenkite.com

 

PierreB

 

 

 

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17750 From: dougselsam Date: 5/6/2015
Subject: Re: Kite Loop Generator by Dan Tracy
That's the spirit!  :)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17751 From: Rod Read Date: 5/6/2015
Subject: Re: Kite Loop Generator by Dan Tracy
Apologies everyone I notice Doug Selsam has replied...
I will distract him again for a while...

Here Doug ... Click this https://youtu.be/3FslQlfrUgk

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17752 From: dougselsam Date: 5/6/2015
Subject: Re: Are all tidal blah-blah-blahs wrong?
"Here Doug ... Click this https://youtu.be/3FslQlfrUgk Rod Read Windswept and Exasperating Limited"
***Thanks Roddy "The Betz coefficient - that that that that 16/27ths, is rubbish!" - Professor Crackpot
Note his "solution" utilizes "a butterfly net".  Hmmmm....  Bowtie anyone?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17753 From: Christian Harrell Date: 5/6/2015
Subject: 3D Printing
Ive seen NASA use 3D printed parts, and now Airbus, If you think it, you can create it for a fraction of the price it used to cost! 


Christian 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17754 From: Rod Read Date: 5/6/2015
Subject: Re: 3D Printing

Some lovely brackets there.
Very efficient in terms of material performance.

I like the look of the further reading about space applications too.
The guy who wrote the article has some way out links even Dave S would like.. E.g http://therealityinstitute.net/2014/03/the-lattice-theory-by-bruce-nappi/
In lattice theory apparently there are double A's everywhere... No wonder it's easy to make power from the ether by AWE.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17755 From: dave santos Date: 5/6/2015
Subject: Re: Kite Loop Generator by Dan Tracy
Dan's innovation here is to add his reel-bar, but that's not as essential on land, so Pierre and PeterL's prior flygen designs are not greatly surpassed, if at all, by dual HAWTs Still, its great to see more product offerings, once again supporting optimistic realism for parafoil AWES. The inherent problem in these early designs is that they require active human piloting, but are still worth testing and training with.
From: Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]
Sent: ‎5/‎6/‎2015 9:09 AM
To: AWE
Subject: Re: [AWES] Kite Loop Generator by Dan Tracy

 

Apologies everyone I notice Doug Selsam has replied...
I will distract him again for a while...

Here Doug ... Click this https://youtu.be/3FslQlfrUgk

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17756 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Re: Kite Loop Generator by Dan Tracy
Pentland Firth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17757 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Re: Kite Loop Generator by Dan Tracy
Tidal race - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 


Tidal bore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Tidal currents
NOAA's National Ocean Service: Education: Currents

 



Minesto
Minesto - Power from Tidal and Ocean Currents

 

Paravane arches, domes, trains ... ???
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17758 From: dave santos Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Re: 3D Printing
The "lattice theory" described as a novelistic sci-fi pretext for "Awareness Level 3" is just not a well-informed physics theory. On the other hand, kite lattices of many kinds are known in classic kiting, with no need for "A2" fantasizing.

What's reported about 3D printing in aviation is the predicted cautious (yet still hyped) introduction of small parts, like cabinet pulls and even cabin electronic insulation panels, but not the adoption of 3D printing for critical aircraft structure. As the article duly notes, a fully 3D-printed commercial aircraft is "still a long ways off".

The open question in AWE is whether 3D printing should be secretly presented to unqualified investors as a ready basis for superior AWES design not otherwise competitive. This is a real-world (A1) concern.
 


 

.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17759 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Study of: http://www.hwn500.de/

Study of:  Home - HWN 500

Who? What?  Why? When? Mission? Ideas? Merit? Contributions? Associates? Partners? Documents? Etc.   


Their stated goal: "Goal of the ZIM-network HWN 500 is to initiate R&D-projects for the development of innovative airborne wind energy systems."


Then what?   After initiating R&D-projects in AWE, then what?    ?

Etc. 

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17760 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Hat reels and also telescoping reel sets :: CC 4.0 BY NC SA by kPowe

Hat reel  :: CC 4.0 BY NC SA by kPower, Inc


Have a hat or helmet that protect the human from sun, wind, rain, objects, etc.. 

Attached to the hat or helmet or similar head gear is a reel or drum for holding kite-system line. The variety of reel designs are wide and implied by the fundament disclosure of storing the reel on headgear.   The reel holding line may operate in the position of the headgear or be taken down off the headgear for operating by hand or other construct.   The storage place on the hat or the like is at the core of this disclosure.    The arrangement permits transport of substantially large-diameter drums of line by a human person as he or she walks or treks through foliage or other persons in places and transport vehicles such as buses or trains or the like. 


Further disclosure:  Telescopic reel sets.  Have drums or reels of line for kite systems. Have a number of reels. Have the reels or drums be hollow. Have the diameters of the reels be roughly telescopic where stored lines on the reels reach a final outside diameter that fits loosely inside a larger drum or reel.  The final arrangement is one global outside drum holding stored line whilst inside that reel or drum is fitted a smaller drum or reel holding line whilst again inside that smaller drum or reel is another similar smaller-diameter drum or reels that holds kite-system line. The line sets on these telescopically-stored drums or reels may be segmented to each drum or reel or the line may be continuous bridging from one drum to the next and such in various combinations as one skilled in the arts would choose or configure.    Such telescopic reels or drums of lines may be attached to headgear as noted above in the first paragraph; or the telescopic reels or drums of lines may be toted or stored via any other common means. 


CC 4.0 BY NC SA by kPower, Inc

~~ Joe Faust 


 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17761 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Status of Airborne Wind Energy to date _______

Status of Airborne Wind Energy to date _______

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

??????????????????????????????????????


--------------------------------------------------------------------

People are thinking, writing, investing, experimenting, spending, gathering, talking, playing, selling, merging, dispersing, stopping, starting, breaking, mending, flying, converting wind energy into useful forms of energy, practicing solving practical needs with kite systems, storing energy ... 


As yet, we have no reports of anyone selling kite-system electricity to consumers or electric-grid brokers. 


A significant survey was made by Stefan Wilhelm and peer-reviewed by Guido Lütsch. Such survey may be critiqued as to methods of surveying, completeness of survey, and the results of that survey.  A copy of the survey was extended confidentially to survey participants.   I do not know if or when the survey results and background on methods of survey will be made public or not. 

"AWE 2015 report, its current status is analyzed based on a survey, conducted by the BMWi-supported ZIM-network HWN500 and BHWE e.V."   

Who and what is not represented in that survey?    Etc.         Such survey is game matter for this discussion thread among other matter.


==========

Water or air?   Traction also.   Special works and special applications too.    Where is AWE now?


==========
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17762 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Study of http://www.levicraft.de/

Study of 

LeviCraft

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17763 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Study of: http://www.liros.com/
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17764 From: dave santos Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Re: Study of: http://www.hwn500.de/
Its a parallel emergence of the gathered Northern EU venture circle, with AWESCO as its elite academic arm, and HWN500 as a business-oriented consortium (replacing AWEC, but under the same EU leadership).

Interesting TEDx by Guido, stepping forward as an AWE evangelist-





On Thursday, May 7, 2015 9:22 AM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Study of:  Home - HWN 500
Who? What?  Why? When? Mission? Ideas? Merit? Contributions? Associates? Partners? Documents? Etc.   

Their stated goal: "Goal of the ZIM-network HWN 500 is to initiate R&D-projects for the development of innovative airborne wind energy systems."

Then what?   After initiating R&D-projects in AWE, then what?    ?
Etc. 
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17765 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Re: Repeller
Repeller

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17766 From: dave santos Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Re: Status of Airborne Wind Energy to date _______
Joe,

Last year, at the Texas AWE Encampment, we did manage to pump a few AWE electrons onto the Texas Grid, via a grid-tie inverter. By law, such locally produced electricity must be bought by the local utility, but of course kFarm's background demand meant no net sale (its meter did not "run-backwards").

Altaeros seems on-track to first formally sell kWhrs (allowing for typical engineering and political delays),

daveS



On Thursday, May 7, 2015 9:56 AM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Status of Airborne Wind Energy to date _______
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
??????????????????????????????????????

--------------------------------------------------------------------
People are thinking, writing, investing, experimenting, spending, gathering, talking, playing, selling, merging, dispersing, stopping, starting, breaking, mending, flying, converting wind energy into useful forms of energy, practicing solving practical needs with kite systems, storing energy ... 

As yet, we have no reports of anyone selling kite-system electricity to consumers or electric-grid brokers. 

A significant survey was made by Stefan Wilhelm and peer-reviewed by Guido Lütsch. Such survey may be critiqued as to methods of surveying, completeness of survey, and the results of that survey.  A copy of the survey was extended confidentially to survey participants.   I do not know if or when the survey results and background on methods of survey will be made public or not. 
"AWE 2015 report, its current status is analyzed based on a survey, conducted by the BMWi-supported ZIM-network HWN500 and BHWE e.V."   
Who and what is not represented in that survey?    Etc.         Such survey is game matter for this discussion thread among other matter.

==========
Water or air?   Traction also.   Special works and special applications too.    Where is AWE now?

==========
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17767 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Re: Status of Airborne Wind Energy to date _______
Good show, kPower, Inc. at Texas AWE encampment ... on placing energy into a utilities grid!
=====================

As to the Wilhelm survey, I am taking pause on methods, as he disclosed that: 
"Some impertinent answers were excluded"  ... 
My pause, just maybe in the core of such impertinent answers, there might be seeds important to AWE; will we ever know what may have been left out?  Challenging is survey making! Not easy task!
---------------------------------

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17768 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Re: Status of Airborne Wind Energy to date _______
Convenience note:

TRL 9 - Actual system proven through successful mission operations 
TRL 8 - Actual system completed and qualified through test and demonstration 
TRL 7 - System prototype demonstration in an operational environment 
TRL 6 - System/subsystem model or prototype demonstration in a relevant environment 
TRL 5 - Component and/or breadboard validation in relevant environment 
TRL 4 - Component and/or breadboard validation in laboratory environment 
TRL 3 - Analytical and experimental critical functions and/or characteristic proof-of-concept 
TRL 2 - Technology concept and/or application formulated 
TRL 1 - Basic principles observed and reported 

~~~~  Rating system: European Space Agency (ESA)
============================================
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17769 From: dave santos Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Re: Study of: http://www.liros.com/
An impractical and dangerous concept outdoors. Spherical balloons intended for dirigible use are not worth the small capital and gas savings, given velocity-compounded drag. Unusable in even low wind, with expensive LTA dependence, such a platform is not suited for either serious pilots or non-pilots. It might be a novel attraction in a large indoor venue, but not likely more. Even Santos-Dumont's pioneering personal airships were far better designed, but modern improved modern versions still lack a significant market, due to all the well-known inherent limitations.



On Thursday, May 7, 2015 9:59 AM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17770 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Re: Status of Airborne Wind Energy to date _______
The Wilhelm survey had no participants reporting TRL 8 or TRL9. 
So, since the AWE field has actual TRL9  in 2015, then such matter did not get into the survey for some reason.  
~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17771 From: Christian Harrell Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Re: 3D Printing
There are inventors that try to use what has already been manufactured, they build everything from traditional methods. I dont know if you need any actual hardware build Dave so 3D printing may not concern you, but I know this would be perfect for your kite horn, Rod (you could probably make it one piece and perforate it to boot. 

How do you advance a field if one doesn't devise something novel? In the day in age where you can build and design any custom shape, there is less and less of a need to go about things traditionally. Our materials are lighter and stronger than they've ever been before, and with the current state of the technology, Im afraid it will never go back. Airlines, Aerospace, Automotive.. they've all understood that 3D printing has many advantages. Neglecting the usefulness of CAD and 3D printing is like suggesting computers and typing are stupid (as Im sure many people did)... It is obvious to me where manufacturing is going. 

Automotive (Most of the car has been printed) 

NASA Aerospace

And Rod! Ill stay tuned with that theory, I really like it. We look at the glass and say that it is half empty as if the air above has no properties..I think space if very much the same. Ill be interested to see where this goes, I understand its a new Idea.. but it seems promising. 

Christian
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17772 From: dave santos Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Re: Status of Airborne Wind Energy to date _______
Its again a matter of definition of what counts as AWE. It can be well-argued that the ancient use of kites was AWE-based TRL9. Its reasonable to account a century of aviation fuel savings, by playing tailwinds, as TRL9 AWE. Its getting harder to keep up with increased progress in AWE R&D, so any survey will tend to omit cases. Small demo apps, like charging cell-phones at obviously high TRL, are easily overlooked, either by chance or by a utility-scale focus.

There is also a growing presumption of unconscious bias, in modern theories of academic opinion, with strong statistical tendencies well established, but no definite test applicable to specific cases. At least we can say the BHWE survey correctly presents the general progress trend in AWE, even if it overlooks some evidence.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17773 From: dave santos Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Re: 3D Printing
Christian,

CAD and 3D printing are way-cool, consistent with my long career involvement in CAD engineering. I was even present at the birth of 3D printing (laser sintering) decades ago, so my tech critique is more nuanced and positive than you represent.

You are not being asked if 3D printing is cool (it is), but what exact AWES concept or part of yours critically depends on 3D printing, rather than any key inventive leaps per se. Secondarily, I question if your investors are getting the same 3D printing AWE pitch we get, without compelling inventive leaps being revealed. kPower would like to counter-pitch other concepts to your hidden investor.

Lets see how your case develops then; on general engineering venture grounds as well as the prominent 3D printing promotion aspect,

daveS




On Thursday, May 7, 2015 11:16 AM, "Christian Harrell christianharrell@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
There are inventors that try to use what has already been manufactured, they build everything from traditional methods. I dont know if you need any actual hardware build Dave so 3D printing may not concern you, but I know this would be perfect for your kite horn, Rod (you could probably make it one piece and perforate it to boot. 

How do you advance a field if one doesn't devise something novel? In the day in age where you can build and design any custom shape, there is less and less of a need to go about things traditionally. Our materials are lighter and stronger than they've ever been before, and with the current state of the technology, Im afraid it will never go back. Airlines, Aerospace, Automotive.. they've all understood that 3D printing has many advantages. Neglecting the usefulness of CAD and 3D printing is like suggesting computers and typing are stupid (as Im sure many people did)... It is obvious to me where manufacturing is going. 

Automotive (Most of the car has been printed) 

NASA Aerospace

And Rod! Ill stay tuned with that theory, I really like it. We look at the glass and say that it is half empty as if the air above has no properties..I think space if very much the same. Ill be interested to see where this goes, I understand its a new Idea.. but it seems promising. 

Christian

On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 9:12 AM, dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17774 From: dave santos Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Re: Repeller
The informal practice is not to quibble over "propeller" usage if misunderstanding is unlikely. "Propeller" correctly applies to AWES turbines with true propeller modes, like Makani's M600. "Impeller" is also a leading contender in this usage-space, if more options are wanted.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17775 From: Christian Harrell Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Re: 3D Printing
Dave, 

Quite frankly, I am unsure of your Kite loop generator and dont know what you actually could pitch.
It doesn't reel line in or out, I dont see any scalability other than perhaps making the kite larger, however stacking may be out of the question. 
It doesn't seem like it can be used for transportation (a requirement for my investor). 
The Pilot kite zaps energy from the looping kite during power stroke. 
Looks like it would be dangerous to consistently venture deeper into the wind window
Cannot set up your mechanism and transport it where it actually needs to go quickly.. especially singlehandedly.
Doesn't double as both CWKP and stationary AWES..

Unless you can address all these problems, I wouldnt concern yourself about my investor. Drop it already. If you feel comfortable with your work, then finding someone to support you should be easy, as you said, youve got plenty of experience in the field. 

I dont think that you understand that 3D printing is a tool not a whole business model. Just like CNC advanced manufacturing so does 3D printing.. Printing saves companies time, It makes components lighter, Its much cheaper in the long run. NASA, Local Motors, and more are using the technology..  Any small maker space or hacker would benefit from a 3D printer just for cheap rapid protos and proof of concepts alone. 

Christian 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17776 From: Rod Read Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Re: Status of Airborne Wind Energy to date _______
I haven't had my reply back from the survey folks with the collated results...
Hope I wasn't the apparent p155 taker.

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17777 From: benhaiemp Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Viability

Christian just comes to raise the list of problems preventing some viability of a scheme. (see below) . Can you do the same for other systems discussed , mine for example Economically viable Airborne Wind Turbine (stationary flygen)

or Rotating kite (for yoyo)

or FlygenKite wind energy module for kite (small crosswind flygen manually controlled)

and other systems ("Daisy", "Serpentine" tm ...). It is interesting to have the opinion of someone taking out the money from his pocket.


PierreB


"Dave, 


Quite frankly, I am unsure of your Kite loop generator and dont know what you actually could pitch.
It doesn't reel line in or out, I dont see any scalability other than perhaps making the kite larger, however stacking may be out of the question. 
It doesn't seem like it can be used for transportation (a requirement for my investor). 
The Pilot kite zaps energy from the looping kite during power stroke. 
Looks like it would be dangerous to consistently venture deeper into the wind window
Cannot set up your mechanism and transport it where it actually needs to go quickly.. especially singlehandedly.
Doesn't double as both CWKP and stationary AWES..

Unless you can address all these problems, I wouldnt concern yourself about my investor. Drop it already. If you feel comfortable with your work, then finding someone to support you should be easy, as you said, youve got plenty of experience in the field. 

I dont think that you understand that 3D printing is a tool not a whole business model. Just like CNC advanced manufacturing so does 3D printing.. Printing saves companies time, It makes components lighter, Its much cheaper in the long run. NASA, Local Motors, and more are using the technology..  Any small maker space or hacker would benefit from a 3D printer just for cheap rapid protos and proof of concepts alone. 

Christian" 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17778 From: dave santos Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Re: 3D Printing
Christian,

What KiteLab Group and kPower consistently pitch is Comparative AWES Testing, in order to best inform major investment. Don't be fooled into thinking that FlyGens, KitePlanes, Autogyros, Looping Foils, KiteSats, Kitetoons, SkyBows, WingMills, and on and on, or any single concept is being pitched prematurely by kPower as a winner*.

kPower seeks to carefully test all these ideas for commercialization, not just your single 3D printed AWES investment offering. We a test-engineering company above all, and winning designs are by who ever invents them (like Roy's SkyBow). If nothing else, we would likely buy your initial production unit to test along with all the others available to borrow or buy, and see how it compares in the app (like kite sailing).

What is proposed is that your investor be invited to directly participate in broader foundational due-diligence AWE research (with your own devices invited to test, side-by-side). This hopefully involves less investor risk than a single bet just on 3D printed AWES tech. Its not our call to deny small investors all reasonable options, so please be sure this investor at least gets the correct picture of what is proposed (investment diversification across the field of early players), rather than willful miss-impressions,

daveS


* Excepting the winning wings powering  kite sports.





On Thursday, May 7, 2015 1:09 PM, "Christian Harrell christianharrell@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Dave, 

Quite frankly, I am unsure of your Kite loop generator and dont know what you actually could pitch.
It doesn't reel line in or out, I dont see any scalability other than perhaps making the kite larger, however stacking may be out of the question. 
It doesn't seem like it can be used for transportation (a requirement for my investor). 
The Pilot kite zaps energy from the looping kite during power stroke. 
Looks like it would be dangerous to consistently venture deeper into the wind window
Cannot set up your mechanism and transport it where it actually needs to go quickly.. especially singlehandedly.
Doesn't double as both CWKP and stationary AWES..

Unless you can address all these problems, I wouldnt concern yourself about my investor. Drop it already. If you feel comfortable with your work, then finding someone to support you should be easy, as you said, youve got plenty of experience in the field. 

I dont think that you understand that 3D printing is a tool not a whole business model. Just like CNC advanced manufacturing so does 3D printing.. Printing saves companies time, It makes components lighter, Its much cheaper in the long run. NASA, Local Motors, and more are using the technology..  Any small maker space or hacker would benefit from a 3D printer just for cheap rapid protos and proof of concepts alone. 

Christian 



On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 11:57 AM, dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17779 From: dave santos Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Re: Viability
Christian's predictions about his own design v. others (looping foil, for example), are ideal for actual testing. He may be surprised by the results of actual kite trials and future history. Already, some of his predictions do not hold; for example, a Pilot Kite does not "zap energy" from a looping foil, but actually adds its own energy. There is also no problem foreseen with a looping foil providing both traction and aux power for sailing, especially for HAPA skycar use. Looping foils might scale in large lattice arrays, if only at SkySails' ~current conceptual 1000m2 wing unit scaling limit. That's quite scalable.

Let testing and the long arc of history tell who predicted best.

Regarding the physics of the looping foil Christian wrote: "It doesn't reel line in or out, I dont see any scalability other than perhaps making the kite larger, however stacking may be out of the question. 
It doesn't seem like it can be used for transportation (a requirement for my investor). 
The Pilot kite zaps energy from the looping kite during power stroke. 
Looks like it would be dangerous to consistently venture deeper into the wind window
Cannot set up your mechanism and transport it where it actually needs to go quickly.. especially singlehandedly.
Doesn't double as both CWKP and stationary AWES..
"
 



On Thursday, May 7, 2015 1:54 PM, "pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Christian just comes to raise the list of problems preventing some viability of a scheme. (see below) . Can you do the same for other systems discussed , mine for example Economically viable Airborne Wind Turbine (stationary flygen)
or Rotating kite (for yoyo)
or FlygenKite wind energy module for kite (small crosswind flygen manually controlled)
and other systems ("Daisy", "Serpentine" tm ...). It is interesting to have the opinion of someone taking out the money from his pocket.

PierreB

"Dave, 

Quite frankly, I am unsure of your Kite loop generator and dont know what you actually could pitch.
It doesn't reel line in or out, I dont see any scalability other than perhaps making the kite larger, however stacking may be out of the question. 
It doesn't seem like it can be used for transportation (a requirement for my investor). 
The Pilot kite zaps energy from the looping kite during power stroke. 
Looks like it would be dangerous to consistently venture deeper into the wind window
Cannot set up your mechanism and transport it where it actually needs to go quickly.. especially singlehandedly.
Doesn't double as both CWKP and stationary AWES..

Unless you can address all these problems, I wouldnt concern yourself about my investor. Drop it already. If you feel comfortable with your work, then finding someone to support you should be easy, as you said, youve got plenty of experience in the field. 

I dont think that you understand that 3D printing is a tool not a whole business model. Just like CNC advanced manufacturing so does 3D printing.. Printing saves companies time, It makes components lighter, Its much cheaper in the long run. NASA, Local Motors, and more are using the technology..  Any small maker space or hacker would benefit from a 3D printer just for cheap rapid protos and proof of concepts alone. 

Christian" 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17780 From: dave santos Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Major New
Big news from Drachen Foundation, of importance to historical AWE collecting; the Kite Museum of Korea is publicly announced. Drachen's own collections will jump-start the new museum, which seems set to surpass in ambition all previous kite museums. Again, the kite is found moving up in the modern world-


Note that the World Kite Museum has been collecting AWE artifacts for some years, and these could also end up in KMK, since the WKM collection is in an overdue-tsunami zone. The American Wind Power Museum is also now collecting kites and kite-energy pieces, with a vast new gallery to fill. AWE pioneers of every kind are encouraged to donate or loan their prototypes; that they might be conserved and publicly shared, rather than lost or hidden.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17781 From: dave santos Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Sean Costello presents AWE in EDF Pulse

More nice work. See video-
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17782 From: dave santos Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: MultiKite French-Mexican AWE Project
Recent notice that Rogelio Lozano is active in a new French AWE startup, MultiKite, as found in Baptiste Labat's valuable AWE blog. Rogelio formally validated reverse-pumping to sustain kite flight in 2013-
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17783 From: dave santos Date: 5/7/2015
Subject: Window into Peter Lynn's SSL Quest
Lots of gory SSSL detail, plus the May Newsletter, linked below. The extraordinary claim that SSSLs outpower foils by 3x is somewhat understood by the SSSL's lower wind-range advantage and monsterous drag in high wind, if less true in the middle wind range-
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17784 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/8/2015
Subject: Modified parachutes to effect kiting
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17785 From: Christian Harrell Date: 5/9/2015
Subject: Re: Viability
Pierre,

Im very fond of your Crosswind Flygen, I hope that Dan Tracy has mentioned you some how.. Are you the originator of this idea, Pierre, I was wondering what inspired you? 

These flygen bars could perform a bevy of tasks,

Maritime Lights Port (red) and Starboard (green)
Wind Meter and other atmospheric testing apparatuses
Antena 
Camera
Radar reflector 

Could be used to travel up the lines to a pre determined point
Could unfurl and store Kites like the RM10 speedfoil 

I see incredible stacking capability. Additionally The device could be automated to loop in the future. 

Additionally, If the kite cannot be used in the sky, the flygen rod could be inserted into the ground vertically and generate power that way (albeit less effectively of course)

Pierre, If you would like to work together on a Flygen project let me know! 

The problems I foresee with the giant mesh arrays is mobility, As climate change dramatically changes weather patterns, personally I think it is best to concentrate on relatively mobile schemes. There will be a place for giant stationary wind farms, but I also envision AWES following weather patterns like cattle in search for better pastures. With our current infrastructure, something stationary like a wind turbine can not be moved to a more profitable location when the wind dies. 

Christian 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17786 From: benhaiemp Date: 5/9/2015
Subject: Re: Viability

Christian,


Yes for the way to associate a soft wing with a turbine (see Le Monde and also FR2955627 ) . To begin I put the turbine on leading edge but with bad result (no stability). After I thought the natural place of turbine was under the wing, like for a motored paraglider. The idea was also to assure a stable position of turbine using the tension of the two lines.


"Pierre, If you would like to work together on a Flygen project let me know!". Yes, ok.The first use FlygenKite:1' playing = 1' laptop or 30' talking  I envisage is quickly loading electronic devices as tablet (perhaps a market in countries or regions without grid to facilitate education with tablet) or portable. For it automation (which is a big challenge) is not need. But the electronic must be realized. The uses you mention need automation, so more investment funds, but can work also under a stationary kite. The second use I envisage as educational toy with lighting as you see on precedent post.


 Pierre B



---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <christianharrell@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17787 From: Christian Harrell Date: 5/9/2015
Subject: Re: Viability
Pierre, 

Indeed Automation will be, by far, the hardest part, That is what Im working on with the Kite Engine It is designed to loop, reel, etc. What you have here is an excellent tool for emergencies. In addition to a little USB charger for a tablet or a cell phone, This system could also boost a cell signal as well.. What does your current model look like, Pierre? 

Have you considered using more than one flygen? maybe stacking 3? 

Christian 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17788 From: benhaiemp Date: 5/9/2015
Subject: Re: Viability

Christian,


My more complete AWES is Crosswind flygen manually controlled with lighting module

as educational toy (improvments being required for a more resistant stick).

Only one kite  (to facilitate crosswind operations), only one turbine (simpler, the turbine being able to be bigger according to kite performances). 

Automation will be for utility-scale. Even a good electronic for chargers is demanding.


PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17789 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/9/2015
Subject: Re: George Lawrence
Significant page with some photos I had not seen. 
George Lawrence & His Aerial Photos

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17790 From: dave santos Date: 5/9/2015
Subject: Re: Viability
The earliest instance known to us of carrying a flygen under a powerkite is Peter Lynn in the late '90's, and Dave Lang  included it in his 2004 Drachen Foundation AWE survey, coining the term flygen.  While PL is reported to have been uncomfortable with too massive a unit sweeping wildly, Pierre carried forward with a small version with acceptable risk.
From: Christian Harrell christianharrell@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]
Sent: ‎5/‎9/‎2015 5:07 AM
To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AWES] Viability

 

Pierre,

Im very fond of your Crosswind Flygen, I hope that Dan Tracy has mentioned you some how.. Are you the originator of this idea, Pierre, I was wondering what inspired you? 

These flygen bars could perform a bevy of tasks,

Maritime Lights Port (red) and Starboard (green)
Wind Meter and other atmospheric testing apparatuses
Antena 
Camera
Radar reflector 

Could be used to travel up the lines to a pre determined point
Could unfurl and store Kites like the RM10 speedfoil 

I see incredible stacking capability. Additionally The device could be automated to loop in the future. 

Additionally, If the kite cannot be used in the sky, the flygen rod could be inserted into the ground vertically and generate power that way (albeit less effectively of course)

Pierre, If you would like to work together on a Flygen project let me know! 

The problems I foresee with the giant mesh arrays is mobility, As climate change dramatically changes weather patterns, personally I think it is best to concentrate on relatively mobile schemes. There will be a place for giant stationary wind farms, but I also envision AWES following weather patterns like cattle in search for better pastures. With our current infrastructure, something stationary like a wind turbine can not be moved to a more profitable location when the wind dies. 

Christian 



Posted by: Christian Harrell <christianharrell@gmail.com
Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (3)

[The entire original message is not included.]
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17791 From: dave santos Date: 5/9/2015
Subject: Re: George Lawrence
Especially interesting is the association with Silas Conyne. Both inventors emerged from the same great "windy city", Chicago, and took their techne east and west to greater fame. Both kite and camera were genius.
From: joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]
Sent: ‎5/‎9/‎2015 2:52 PM
To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AWES] Re: George Lawrence

 

Significant page with some photos I had not seen. 

George Lawrence & His Aerial Photos

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17792 From: benhaiemp Date: 5/9/2015
Subject: Re: Viability

http://web.archive.org/web/20050829141827/www.inet.net.nz/~cbrent/pete/  motorised wing with 3 turbines settled within the leading edge. On Dave North's paper http://www.energykitesystems.net/NASA/HighAltitudeWindPowerDaveNorth.pdf the same as FlyGen.

http://drupal.drachen.org/sites/default/files/pdf/Journal%20Issue%2016.pdf see p. 14 ("Using Kites to Generate Electricity: Plodding, Low Tech Approach Wins") a similar drawing of FlyGen but with only one turbine.

Did they fly?


I knewn this after making first prototypes of FlygenKite. In first tests I put a turbine within leading edge  (as for photos and drawing on previous links) but with bad results. Then I obtain a stable and easily pilotable system by putting the turbine below on a stick between the two lines.


PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17793 From: benhaiemp Date: 5/9/2015
Subject: Re: Viability

From http://web.archive.org/web/20050829141827/www.inet.net.nz/~cbrent/pete/  "Prototype details
 I am currently experimenting with the development of a small computer controlled flying wing as seen in the photos, though I am yet to achieve stable flight. The arch wing is taped polystyrene as per a model glider, it is half a meter span with three brushed Speed 400 motors attached." ("Peter S Lynn
12 October 2004 "). In fact it is a motorized wing, not an AWES, not even a kite. And the drawing from http://drupal.drachen.org/sites/default/files/pdf/Journal%20Issue%2016.pdf takes again a similar design (but with only one turbine) but with a clear description as AWES as FlyGen, but also as scheme, with no reference of a working prototype.

So the first filmed working prototype of wind turbine under soft wing is on FlygenKite - Kite wind turbine - Eolienne cerf-volant .


 PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17794 From: dave santos Date: 5/10/2015
Subject: Re: Viability
Pierre,

Keep in mind that Peter Lynn Sr. and his son "Pete" are easy to confuse, having the same name and working both together and separately at a very high level.

Pete's small wing with multiple rotors is not the earliest single flygen experiment done by the Lynns. It's an earlier version, not as well documented, that suspended the flygen under a power kite

Including Pete's role in Makani's founding, and given the extraordinary family talent over decades (akin to the Piccard or Cousteau dynasties), its been hard for anyone in AWE to beat the Lynn name with key firsts. Lets keep trying :)

daveS
From: pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]
Sent: ‎5/‎9/‎2015 11:31 PM
To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AWES] Viability

 

From http://web.archive.org/web/20050829141827/www.inet.net.nz/~cbrent/pete/  "Prototype details
 I am currently experimenting with the development of a small computer controlled flying wing as seen in the photos, though I am yet to achieve stable flight. The arch wing is taped polystyrene as per a model glider, it is half a meter span with three brushed Speed 400 motors attached." ("Peter S Lynn
12 October 2004 "). In fact it is a motorized wing, not an AWES, not even a kite. And the drawing from http://drupal.drachen.org/sites/default/files/pdf/Journal%20Issue%2016.pdf takes again a similar design (but with only one turbine) but with a clear description as AWES as FlyGen, but also as scheme, with no reference of a working prototype.

So the first filmed working prototype of wind turbine under soft wing is on FlygenKite - Kite wind turbine - Eolienne cerf-volant .


 PierreB


[The entire original message is not included.]
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17795 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 5/10/2015
Subject: Re: Viability

DaveS,

 

As usual you try to justify false statements of your previous posts aggravating them. So I must correct you, sometimes with a comment, sometimes with [ ] insertion.

"Keep in mind that Peter Lynn Sr. and his son "Pete" are easy to confuse [for Dave Santos], having the same name and working both together and separately at a very high level."

 

"Pete's small wing with multiple rotors is not the earliest single flygen experiment done by the Lynns. It's an earlier version, not as well documented, that suspended the flygen under a power kite" [where?].

At least two false statements. 1) The paper we talk about http://web.archive.org/web/20050829141827/www.inet.net.nz/~cbrent/pete/  showing  wing with multiple rotors is signed by Peter S Lynn on 12 October 2004, not by Pete; and 2) it is not a kite, but a motorised wing. There is no tether , there is " a small computer controlled flying wing as seen in the photos".

An advice to help you avoiding confusion: Pete develops AWES of which Makani.

 

"Including Pete's role in Makani's founding, and given the extraordinary family talent over decades (akin to the Piccard or Cousteau dynasties), its been hard for anyone in AWE to beat the Lynn name with key firsts. Lets keep trying :)"

What a pity! You attack Makani for years and now you praise Makani but only to add some fog to your false statements. Still two other false statements, one obvious statement and one hidden statement: 1) and 2) I do not try to beat Peter S Lynn (the paper we talk about is from Peter) since a flygen AWES and a motorised wing are quite different. More, knowing his outstanding level of expertise I do not beleive he would have placed turbines in leading edge of a soft kite because this does not work as kite. Your "with key firsts" is not a technical argument.  

 

PierreB